fake clack discussion

[longweight]

Well said Ivan.

[rowdy]

I am just so tired of seeing the bickering and whining about ****ing clacks so the gloves are coming off...
I am sure this is going to be unpopular as hell view, but I really don't make a distinction either. Then perhaps this will be obvious since I have often stated I don't give any ****s about the concepts of intellectual property and I do Cherry replica dyesubs myself. Does this hurt the now legit holder of Cherry dyesubs - BSP? Quite possibly... but they don't allow the flexibility and they don't have all the key sizes that are most often demanded. So... I can say it's BSP own fault for loosing this money. Now, also many people believe that GMK is too inflexible so you went ahead and made derivative replica with SP. Does this hurt GMK... possibly... but you can blame them for it for not accommodating smaller MOQ for less popular colorways.
If one was to pump out 1000s of CC replicas I would give zero ****s as long as it was clearly stated replica. I really couldn't fault someone for filling a supply void where there is clearly opportunity there. If clack is unhappy with someone coming along and making replica... maybe they could do plebian clacks for everyone that wants them to own in small color selection and just pump them out for $3 each or whatever... do other limited edition ones as now for the patrician collector fiends. I will blame clack for creating the void in the supply in their own market.
I don't have a ****ing doublestandard because I see them as products just like any other keycaps. You can be mad at me if you want, but I think a bunch of people are being hypocrites.
However, I won't defend the actions that the original point of this discussion was, duping people by cheating and lying about what it is. If making a lie (replica) just have integrity to be honest that it's a phoney and all is well in my book!

Some good points.

But Clacks are not mass-produced commercially available items, they are individual works of art, produced in small batches and sold via very limited channels.

I understand that it is not CC's intention to flood the market with these - he is simply an artist who has discovered an appreciative audience at GH for some of his work.

The biggest problems with the recent situation is that someone exactly copied his work without his permission, they were selling them as authentic, and were selling them at a huge premium apparently with the sole intention of making money.

[tbc]

ivan,

you'll find that among 'digital content' creators (just meaning non-physical artists), your view is actually very popular.

imitation IS the second greatest form of flattery in the digital media space (this is NOT just music and movies). the GREATEST form of flattery is to take someone's work and then improve it (such as a bug fix).  all the matters is proper accreditation and respect.

I wonder if this view is shared amongst 'physical media' artists.  based on this forum alone, that seems to NOT be the case at all.

[HipsterPunks]

Click clacks limited runs and productions boost the overall joy of actually getting a click clack. They are supposed to be fun and a rare piece to keep you hyped up on new releases and sales, and make your day if you actually win one at cost. I agree that resale prices are to blame for the replicas, clowns chasing a quick and easy buck off someone else's livelihood. But bottomline, replicas are killing the enjoyment of getting a clack. Why would you stay by your computer for hours waiting for a predetermined 4grabs when you can buy a knock off for $5 after it comes out. This is taking the piss out of something that supposed to be fun, Owning a piece of a limited run treasure.  I enjoy trading with other users, and I enjoy having to give up a keycap trading just to try out a new theme. Also I believe clack chases do bring a lot of traffic to the site, which isn't a bad thing.

[Photoelectric]

Click clacks limited runs and productions boost the overall joy of actually getting a click clack. They are supposed to be fun and a rare piece to keep you hyped up on new releases and sales, and make your day if you actually win one at cost.

In an ideal world, where everyone understands it and respects small-scale crafts, that view would be upheld and supported.  In reality, this just creates opportunities for imitation, because the market demands more Clacks--more demand than supply, and prices are prohibitively high for, I would say, most keyboard owners who visit GeekHack.  Some can justify the original prices of Clacks, straight from CC For Grabs sales and EK, but I believe most people, including myself, cannot afford paying $100 for a keycap--and Clacks usually go for more than that.  This situation alone, due to the high demand and very high prices, makes it an enticing opportunity for those who can copy and make money on the copies.  We can be idealistic all day long, but the reason imitations happened is because of that. 

This aspect of the situation cannot be ignored anymore, because it is a problem that will not go away unless something changes.  As to what should change--I'm not sure.  Perhaps there needs to be more communication and documentation from Click Clack himself, as well as individualized certificates of authenticity for each Clack--if it is to remain a very small-scale hobby, as he wishes.  Clacks have become something huge here, and it's everyone's responsibility to change the situation, if they participate in the buying, making, and reselling/trading process.

[dustinhxc]

Click clacks limited runs and productions boost the overall joy of actually getting a click clack. They are supposed to be fun and a rare piece to keep you hyped up on new releases and sales, and make your day if you actually win one at cost.

In an ideal world, where everyone understands it and respects small-scale crafts, that view would be upheld and supported.  In reality, this just creates opportunities for imitation, because the market demands more Clacks--more demand than supply, and prices are prohibitively high for, I would say, most keyboard owners who visit GeekHack.  Some can justify the original prices of Clacks, straight from CC For Grabs sales and EK, but I believe most people, including myself, cannot afford paying $100 for a keycap--and Clacks usually go for more than that.  This situation alone, due to the high demand and very high prices, makes it an enticing opportunity for those who can copy and make money on the copies.  We can be idealistic all day long, but the reason imitations happened is because of that. 

This aspect of the situation cannot be ignored anymore, because it is a problem that will not go away unless something changes.  As to what should change--I'm not sure.  Perhaps there needs to be more communication and documentation from Click Clack himself, as well as individualized certificates of authenticity for each Clack--if it is to remain a very small-scale hobby, as he wishes.  Clacks have become something huge here, and it's everyone's responsibility to change the situation, if they participate in the buying, making, and reselling/trading process.

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

[noisyturtle]

I am just so tired of seeing the bickering and whining about ****ing clacks so the gloves are coming off...
I am sure this is going to be unpopular as hell view, but I really don't make a distinction either. Then perhaps this will be obvious since I have often stated I don't give any ****s about the concepts of intellectual property and I do Cherry replica dyesubs myself. Does this hurt the now legit holder of Cherry dyesubs - BSP? Quite possibly... but they don't allow the flexibility and they don't have all the key sizes that are most often demanded. So... I can say it's BSP own fault for loosing this money. Now, also many people believe that GMK is too inflexible so you went ahead and made derivative replica with SP. Does this hurt GMK... possibly... but you can blame them for it for not accommodating smaller MOQ for less popular colorways.
If one was to pump out 1000s of CC replicas I would give zero ****s as long as it was clearly stated replica. I really couldn't fault someone for filling a supply void where there is clearly opportunity there. If clack is unhappy with someone coming along and making replica... maybe they could do plebian clacks for everyone that wants them to own in small color selection and just pump them out for $3 each or whatever... do other limited edition ones as now for the patrician collector fiends. I will blame clack for creating the void in the supply in their own market.
I don't have a ****ing doublestandard because I see them as products just like any other keycaps. You can be mad at me if you want, but I think a bunch of people are being hypocrites.
However, I won't defend the actions that the original point of this discussion was, duping people by cheating and lying about what it is. If making a lie (replica) just have integrity to be honest that it's a phoney and all is well in my book!

Mmm, a damn good point. And someone who may not have $300-400 for something they both love and appreciate is certainly palpable. It goes this way is almost any collectable situation revolving around things in very limited supply. I can tell you first hand, and on multiple occasions, I've bought Neo Geo C.O.N.V.E.R.T. carts because the idea of dropping $800 on an original Metal Slug is just beyond both my reasoning and budget. Plus I can get a perfectly serviceable replica for a quarter the price, and even that's still expensive for a single game.
On the other hand, the notion of CC pumping a bunch of otherwise rare models into the market place to make everyone happy takes away most of the mystique and uniqueness the skulls hold.

[Pacifist]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

Well no one has tried to copy him yet. But some people have been thinking about it....

[dustinhxc]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

Well no one has tried to copy him yet. But some people have been thinking about it....

Yeah I saw that, wanted to copy the steel.. 

[baldgye]

I really don't agree with Ivan's statment that clacks to blame for creating demand and not mass producing his product, that's retarded.
Economics works on the basis that human wants are Infinate... How could he ever hope to fill the gap? There will always be people missing out even if he did 800 order GB's...

The things you want you place a value you would be willing to spend that is in line with your disposable income. Be that Clacks, keyboards, washing machines, shower jell, clothes etc... If there is an item you want that is too much for you to spend you either save, or go without... You can't simply say well **** it I'll just make it myself, make it look the same and then sell it at half the price!

If someone had made a skull keycap that was a solid colour, but looked nothing like a CC and wasn't thick like a CC no one would have a problem (comparing SP to GMK) but they didn't... They made an exact replica and the only real mistake they made was missing off the logo on the bottom...

[baldgye]

Doesn't matter. Its not real a "cherry set" unless if came off a Cherry brand keyboard. And its not a real Dolch set unless it was removed from a Dolch keyboard.

Saying something is Dolch is just at fake as these replica click clacks if you say they are in fact Dolch but they weren't removed from a real Dolch keyboard. If they weren't, they are NOT Dolch.

Show Image

You just became my favorite member! ^^

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Wow, I'm glad I came across this.

I could never afford a resold CC either way, I've been patient, waiting for a For Grabs, but if I saw a good deal on something advertised as a clack, and I bought it, I'd be upset my first clack wasn't that. I'd be very, very upset actually.

That being said, Ivan isn't entirely wrong. CC invented a niche that he could not supply to. It was inevitable that someone stepped in.

Does that make it okay that someone has labelled these knockoffs as clacks? Absolutely not. Is CC to blame for someone creating a fake and selling it like they're his? No, that's victim blaming.

Is CC to blame for creating a market, and making a ripoff a valuable endeavor? I would argue yes. He probably didn't plan it, and it's not like that's a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with the market he's created for clacks, and in fact, I would say he should be extremely proud that he's found a demand for his work. But that being said, what he has done is create a vacuum, and someone has stepped in and filled that empty space.

I think it's entirely okay that someone has decided to fill the vacuum left by CC's inablity to supply anything near demand.

I do not think it's okay that they did it without CC's knowledge and permission.

I do not think it's okay that they sold them as genuine clacks.

I think there should be repercussions, if we could ever enforce such a thing. And find a way to bring restitution to those who have been wronged, and misled.

I think we should take steps to ensure every clack is genuine (whether through a certificate of authenticity, or otherwise)

and I think CC should think hard about this vacuum, and the opportunity that he may miss if he doesn't act to fill it. I like the idea of him finding a less expensive and time consuming option to cater to those who like the look, but aren't collectors, and just want to participate, while keeping specialty runs, either of higher quality or simply significantly less available, to cater to those who want something special and sentimental. This is his opportunity, and his decision. But money is waiting for him if he can find the time to reach out and grab it.

[Pacifist]

Wow, I'm glad I came across this.

I could never afford a resold CC either way, I've been patient, waiting for a For Grabs, but if I saw a good deal on something advertised as a clack, and I bought it, I'd be upset my first clack wasn't that. I'd be very, very upset actually.

That being said, Ivan isn't entirely wrong. CC invented a niche that he could not supply to. It was inevitable that someone stepped in.

Does that make it okay that someone has labelled these knockoffs as clacks? Absolutely not. Is CC to blame for someone creating a fake and selling it like they're his? No, that's victim blaming.

Is CC to blame for creating a market, and making a ripoff a valuable endeavor? I would argue yes. He probably didn't plan it, and it's not like that's a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with the market he's created for clacks, and in fact, I would say he should be extremely proud that he's found a demand for his work. But that being said, what he has done is create a vacuum, and someone has stepped in and filled that empty space.

I think it's entirely okay that someone has decided to fill the vacuum left by CC's inablity to supply anything near demand.

I do not think it's okay that they did it without CC's knowledge and permission.

I do not think it's okay that they sold them as genuine clacks.

I think there should be repercussions, if we could ever enforce such a thing. And find a way to bring restitution to those who have been wronged, and misled.

I think we should take steps to ensure every clack is genuine (whether through a certificate of authenticity, or otherwise)

and I think CC should think hard about this vacuum, and the opportunity that he may miss if he doesn't act to fill it. I like the idea of him finding a less expensive and time consuming option to cater to those who like the look, but aren't collectors, and just want to participate, while keeping specialty runs, either of higher quality or simply significantly less available, to cater to those who want something special and sentimental. This is his opportunity, and his decision. But money is waiting for him if he can find the time to reach out and grab it.

Nicely said

[IvanIvanovich]

Exactly! I wanted US/RU Cherry dyesub but wasn't prepared to spend $500 collector price they were demanding at the time for vintage original. Did I decide I was content to go without it? **** no, I started a groupbuy and made replicas of that **** for $75/set and managed to convince over 200 other people it was a stellar idea!
Just like with knock off Gucci, Rolex, whatever, those things thrive as there is plenty of demand for something that appears similar enough at a bargain price. Occasionally the counterfeits of those are also very very close to the same quality. If I can buy something that is similar quality and appears to be the same or close enough to my satisfaction for a quarter of the price with easier availability I don't see a problem. If I can in fact make it myself for cheaper I certainly will. If I can indeed then make enough of diy thing efficiently to make it a product, what is stopping me exactly now?

Let's say I am skilled at baking bread, and I have all the materials and equipment to make them at lets just say for argument $.25 each... should I just go oh no, **** it... it might make company X butthurt that I didn't buy their bread at the store... then we can take it a step further, and lets say the store RUNS OUT TOTALLY of bread and CLOSES instead of making some more, and I see people lining up wanting some... should I feel bad for the store and not tell all those people in line I have a huge goddamn pile of good fresh baked bread that happens to be made with the same recipe... and I will not only supply them the bread, but not charge them $3 a loaf like at the store but only $.50 for an essentially identical to store loaf... nope... that's wrong to the business I will just burn the bread and **** everyone that is hungry. But then this douchebaug that bought all the bread earlier at the store arrives... and since everyone is desperate for bread and they know it... they turn around and sell the bread at $12 each... and people seem to be totally fine with this?!?
Are you serious that you can't see that is ludicrous? Now lets replace bread with clacks for those that are really slow... it's essentially same situation isn't it now?

How could clack fill that gap? Gee, I don't know maybe mass produce them with a commercial injection molding process... you know, like all the other keycaps.

[Michael]

How could clack fill that gap? Gee, I don't know maybe mass produce them with a commercial injection molding process... you know, like all the other keycaps.

If someone has the capacity to do such a thing, they could... oh I don't know, make their own design? Hmm.


Also, comparing a piece of sculpted (and copyrighted) art to a cap with common legends isn't a fair comparison.

[kmiller8]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

clickclack has been around for over 3 years, Bro Caps has been active less than 1. I'm pretty sure people aren't copying Bro Caps because his first design was stuff, and his second design has been sent to only a handful of people.

[noisyturtle]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

clickclack has been around for over 3 years, Bro Caps has been active less than 1. I'm pretty sure people aren't copying Bro Caps because his first design was stuff, and his second design has been sent to only a handful of people.

Incoming GH Geekcast with CC?

[MKULTRA]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

clickclack has been around for over 3 years, Bro Caps has been active less than 1. I'm pretty sure people aren't copying Bro Caps because his first design was stuff, and his second design has been sent to only a handful of people.

Incoming GH Geekcast with CC?

[dustinhxc]

I agree Click Clack should be more Vocal here. Bro Caps is very vocal and I dont see anyone getting away with copying his work. So Clack needs to stand up and be more active as well . 

clickclack has been around for over 3 years, Bro Caps has been active less than 1. I'm pretty sure people aren't copying Bro Caps because his first design was stuff, and his second design has been sent to only a handful of people.

Incoming GH Geekcast with CC?

That'd be amazing, I loved the Bro Caps episode!

[kmiller8]

Incoming GH Geekcast with CC?

Nothing planned.

[baldgye]

Ivan making insane comparisons to justify his opinion, good plan.

[llovro]

It was only a matter of time people would make fake click clacks.

[Krogenar]

Good points all around. I actually do believe in intellectual property rights, as they protect the "makers" in the marketplace. If these rights are abused often enough, people won't innovate, they won't create as much as they ordinarily would. I also do not think a single keyset is comparable to a work of art.

The cause of all this, in my opinion, is the misguided desire of CC to provide the clacks at a below-market price. Since he cannot control the after market, he has unwittingly made counterfeiting profitable. I would rather CC collect that money himself, by pricing his artwork at what the market has decided it is worth -- which is way more than the price he offers. He's selling them at about $40 or so. If he sold them for $50 or even $75 he would be reducing the incentive to counterfeit his work -- and the extra money would be riding on his hip, where it should be, anyway. If that profit is burning a hole in his pocket, CC can go give that money to a starving artist, 2Pac's hologram, or a hobo -- it's his choice. Or, use it for his next awesome design. (I hope for the latter -- holograms will just use the money to buy booze.)

I'm not blaming the victim -- people who infringe on copyrights are in the wrong. I'm not saying I haven't done it -- I'm not saying people who do it are Hitler. But I'm not going to jump up on a soapbox and say I was right when I did it. It's just not true.

[Photoelectric]

I don't see how increasing the sale price would reduce the counterfeiting incentive, except maybe in some aspects.  Thinking about it, here's how I think it would go.  CC price goes up from a direct sale, perhaps fewer people can commit to buy now.   Those who can pay $75 still buy up all of the available caps.  There are still not that many available caps made--right?  I don't actually know the exact numbers.  If it coosts someone $10-15 to make a fake, they still know they can then resell it for at least $75+.  Which is the same situation we're in currently.  The difference would come if there are more CC caps made than I think there are, and if pricing them at $60-75 would make them not sell out as fast by people who barely know his caps and just jump into the sales because of low prices for fun novelty caps, never to be heard from again.  In which case, there would be a bit less of a shortage.  Which could drive down demand somewhat. 

This is ignoring the fact that CCs are now basically a status symbol, and it would take at least a few sales where they would be "more available" (in a way) to drive down the hype. 

That's all based on a significant number of "if"s and is pure speculation, and we don't know enough (or at least I don't) to really project what will happen.

[demik]

So red line supplies fakes?

Surprise surprise

[Krogenar]

I don't see how increasing the sale price would reduce the counterfeiting incentive, except maybe in some aspects.  Thinking about it, here's how I think it would go.  CC price goes up from a direct sale, perhaps fewer people can commit to buy now.   Those who can pay $75 still buy up all of the available caps.

Well, no, I'm saying CC could still sell as a lottery, but sell them at closer to the aftermarket price.

There are still not that many available caps made--right?  I don't actually know the exact numbers.  If it costs someone $10-15 to make a fake, they still know they can then resell it for at least $75+.

I don't know how many clacks are out there, or how many are generally sold in one of CC's events. But I see your point -- something valuable is always going to be at risk of being counterfeited.

Which is the same situation we're in currently.  The difference would come if there are more CC caps made than I think there are, and if pricing them at $60-75 would make them not sell out as fast by people who barely know his caps and just jump into the sales because of low prices for fun novelty caps, never to be heard from again.

If the price of clacks were closer to what the real market price, it would make reselling them at a higher price more difficult. Also, people who were willing to buy at $40, but will not buy at $75 are now priced out of the market. So the people who want clacks the most (and are willing to pay the most) get them. I think they would probably still sell out, and quickly. But at least the aftermarket prices wouldn't be so outrageous, and the artist would realize more profit.

In which case, there would be a bit less of a shortage.  Which could drive down demand somewhat. 

Yeah, in the sense that fewer people would be in the market.

This is ignoring the fact that CCs are now basically a status symbol, and it would take at least a few sales where they would be "more available" (in a way) to drive down the hype.

Agreed. A better analogy would be a designer handbag -- there's a fair degree of e-peenism involved. You're right that selling at a higher price would not necessarily reduce counterfeiting; but it would reduce some of the aftermarket price "gouging." When something is offered at a below market price, people are going to "flip" the item. Maybe there's a better way to get clacks into the hands of people who wouldn't be able to afford them? Award them to people with an identifying mark with the promise that they never be sold?

[baldgye]

Wouldn't it simply drive up the aftermarket sale price?

[Photoelectric]

Wouldn't it simply drive up the aftermarket sale price?

I can't see it going higher than it already is.   GirlDC has been selling his caps for a while now for ~$100 a cap, and his caps don't get re-sold for $200+.  People pay what they can afford and think is reasonable.

[Krogenar]

Wouldn't it simply drive up the aftermarket sale price?

Possibly. But even clacks must have an upper limit to what people will pay. I'll sell my translucent red clack to you for $100,000. Interested? Didn't think so. I think the aftermarket "flip" prices are closer to the what the real price would be in an open market. If CC wants to get clacks into people's hands who couldn't pay that amount, that's altruistic, but it's also distorting the market. There's got to be a better way to achieve that goal, besides making the cost of clacks so low.

[baldgye]

Wouldn't it simply drive up the aftermarket sale price?

I can't see it going higher than it already is.   GirlDC has been selling his caps for a while now for ~$100 a cap, and his caps don't get re-sold for $200+.  People pay what they can afford and think is reasonable.

True but the demand is lower I would imagine.

I still think you have to be a special kind of self entitled retard in order to think that just because something is rare and expensive you can simply make money of copying and selling copywrited work.

[Binge]

huh-- I never posted my response to this thread.

I think this has spiraled into the realm of "what would I do with clacks if I was clack," and I feel unable to comment!  I'm not clack....

[digi]

I still think you have to be a special kind of self entitled retard in order to think that just because something is rare and expensive you can simply make money of copying and selling copywrited work.

They might be self entitled retards, but those retards do make a lot of money. e.g. fake Nike, Reebok, Sports Jersey's, purses, watches, jewelry, luggage, etc.

[Wildcard]

I still think you have to be a special kind of self entitled retard in order to think that just because something is rare and expensive you can simply make money of copying and selling copywrited work.

They might be self entitled retards, but those retards do make a lot of money. e.g. fake Nike, Reebok, Sports Jersey's, purses, watches, jewelry, luggage, etc.

TIL red line was taking it to the max in the counterfeit market.

[Photoelectric]

As far as it looks right now, LZ and GirlDC are remaining active members of RedLine who actually make stuff, so I wouldn't generalize it to RedLine.  Both of them make something entirely different and are busy with their own products.  All we know is that DrugER was implicated in distribution of fake clacks, and not actually the circumstances and how deep the arrangement went.

[demik]

As far as it looks right now, LZ and GirlDC are remaining active members of RedLine who actually make stuff, so I wouldn't generalize it to RedLine.  Both of them make something entirely different and are busy with their own products.  All we know is that DrugER was implicated in distribution of fake clacks, and not actually the circumstances and how deep the arrangement went.

i bought this pitchfork and damn it im going to use it!

[tbc]

Wouldn't it simply drive up the aftermarket sale price?

I can't see it going higher than it already is.   GirlDC has been selling his caps for a while now for ~$100 a cap, and his caps don't get re-sold for $200+.  People pay what they can afford and think is reasonable.

True but the demand is lower I would imagine.

I still think you have to be a special kind of self entitled retard in order to think that just because something is rare and expensive you can simply make money of copying and selling copywrited work.

never met someone who prioritized money over people?

never met a politician?

[Photekq]

Another fake clack spotted

[Pacifist]

Another fake clack spotted

motha ****ing koreans

[microsoft windows]

Who cares if they're fake? They look to be just about the same thing. After all, they're just little pieces of plastic.

[metalliqaz]

This whole affair pissed me off.  First I got ripped off in a trade, then CC offers me a different key so he can get his hands on the fake, then stiffs me.  I would have kept the fake!  It was obviously cheap but once installed didn't look that bad.

[metalliqaz]

Another fake clack spotted

What do you bet DrugER was involved?

[Binge]

Who cares if they're fake? They look to be just about the same thing. After all, they're just little pieces of plastic.

All versions of IE are the same.  They are all just pieces of ****.

[digi]

Who cares if they're fake? They look to be just about the same thing. After all, they're just little pieces of plastic.

All versions of IE are the same.  They are all just pieces of ****.

lol, good one.

[baldgye]

Another fake clack spotted

How do you know its fake without looking at the bottom? :S

[Pacifist]

Another fake clack spotted

How do you know its fake without looking at the bottom? :S

its see through

[baldgye]

Another fake clack spotted

How do you know its fake without looking at the bottom? :S

its see through

Ah, you saw through my shortsighted post

[Photekq]

You can see that the walls inside are all square and neat, since it's transparent.

[nubbinator]

This whole affair pissed me off.  First I got ripped off in a trade, then CC offers me a different key so he can get his hands on the fake, then stiffs me.  I would have kept the fake!  It was obviously cheap but once installed didn't look that bad.

Maybe he just forgot.  It happens sometimes.

[Alessandro]

Looking at it, I'm also pretty sure that the face is indented and the teeth are wrong.

[Binge]

Looking at it, I'm also pretty sure that the face is indented and the teeth are wrong.

but they aren't.