Author Topic: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB  (Read 216386 times)

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 08:21:06 »
The only thing I would want pre soldered is the SMD stuffs.

I should've mentioned this. I'd like the SMD components presoldered as well.


Wish this had an aluminum housing as well.

Would consider it if enough people asked for it, though it might be quite expensive -- in the $100 to $200 range just for the case.

I'd be interested in an aluminum/metal case as well. But if that option doesn't work out, I'd like to see an ABS case over Polycarb.


Okay, looks like the Full Nav Cluster (option A) is only attractive to PC users.  The (admittedly few) Mac guys are choosing option B.

So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...

      http://matias.ca/60

This option should be more appealing to Mac guys, and perhaps even some of the option B voters.  Ideally, by the end, I'd like to narrow it down to just two options for the GB.

Let me know what you think...




I like the idea of having a "Pure" style layout like Option A and "Poker" style layout like Option C. Admittedly, I'm not a Mac user so I'm not sure how that helps or hurts the Mac users.

Offline Hazel

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:44:36 »
My wishlist:
- Full nav cluster w/dedicated delete key
- Ability to program layout into hardware (via flashing or drop-in controller)
- Barring that, built-in Colemak layout via DIP
- Ability to change capslock to backspace (as part of Colemak layout or as a separate DIP)
- Available blank/Colemak/Dvorak Alps keycaps

I don't mind building it myself, but pre-soldered surface mount components would be welcome.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:51:40 »
Wow, I just found this thread!

I'm definitely interested!!


Keycaps: PC/ANSI

Nav Cluster: Arrow Cluster (option B)

Pre-Assembled or Kit: Both
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Offline brhfl

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 13:45:36 »
I would guess that a lot of Mac users who are interested in this may already be used to the Apple Wireless Keyboard layout... Meaning fn-backspace for delete, and fn-up/down/left/right for pgup/pgdn/home/end. I use the forward delete often, and have no qualms with it being on a function layer. I actually prefer it to the full-size dedicated key approach, because of the reach, but that's a non-issue here.

As for your ~/Esc/Ctrl/Caps Lock solutions, either seems great to me, but my preference is for the second idea (Caps as ctrl also makes quick press equivalent of fn-esc).




Offline spiceBar

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 13:55:00 »
It will be USB, but if you really need PS/2, you can use one of these StarTech adapters (also available from eBay and Amazon)... 

 :eek: It's almost as expensive as the keyboard!

The idea with PS/2 is that I could have used Hasu's PS/2 to USB converter, which contains the TMK firmware and turns the keyboard into a fully programmable one.

The converter is a small printed circuit with a few components, and it would probably be possible to put it inside the keyboard's case by soldering the keyboard's output directly to the converter's input. At least that was my plan.

It's a very low cost device based on an ATMega controller. I don't know exactly how much it costs to be made, but my guess is that it can be done for under $10.

You could have offered this as an optional $50 internal module to turn the keyboard into a fully programmable one for those who insist on this feature (like me).

As you probably know, the TMK firmware offers a ton of features like programmable Fn layers and dual-role modifiers. And much more.

Here is a picture of the converter. Once you remove the huge PS/2 and USB connectors, it's really small (50x26x4mm, with the reset button making it 7mm deep locally).

70150-0
  Two converters are pictured here, so you can see both sides

I understand that you cannot make the keyboard PS/2 easily, but maybe it is possible to make a small converter similar to Hasu's, with the TMK firmware onboard, that would accept USB as input and that would output USB. That would be an optional module to add full programmability without changing the basic design of the keyboard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 July 2014, 14:01:03 by spiceBar »

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:08:12 »
I think this would be a good foray into Matias switches.

I'd be interested in the following:

- PC
- ANSI
- Option A
- Clicky ALPS (but either is fine)
- Pre-Assembled
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:57:05 by divito »
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 06:11:49 »
It will be USB, but if you really need PS/2, you can use one of these StarTech adapters (also available from eBay and Amazon)... 

 :eek: It's almost as expensive as the keyboard!


Yes, pretty outrageous.  I guess they're the only game in town, so they price it as high as they like.




I understand that you cannot make the keyboard PS/2 easily, but maybe it is possible to make a small converter similar to Hasu's, with the TMK firmware onboard, that would accept USB as input and that would output USB. That would be an optional module to add full programmability without changing the basic design of the keyboard.


Yes, it's certainly possible.  There are lots of projects underway.  Somebody may have done it already.  I found quite a few of them here, but didn't sort through them all...

      https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/other_projects.md



Offline BearManJim

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 08:44:23 »
So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...

Eek! I just noticed the delete key! I'm still sticking with option A but it's a shame no more keys could be added around the arrow cluster, freeing up some more space for extra keys to the left? Like what I'm using now on my old netbook;

« Last Edit: Wed, 09 July 2014, 08:46:50 by BearManJim »
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Offline belac

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 08:54:19 »
just realized I didnt post the options I want...

full nav cluster (option A)
PC
ANSI
Fully Assembled
Quiet Alps

 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 07:54:34 by belac »

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 11:07:12 »
If an only if I can get the following settings defined at the firmware level:
  • Dual role ctrl/esc for the capslock key
  • `~ in place of esc on the regular layer. *NOT* the FN layer.

It doesn't matter if I have to buy a teensy or if I have to purchase an optional daughter board, as long as I can have the features I have specified. Having this set with DIP switches would of course be preferred.

Sorry, I didn't see this:


I'd also like to put in a strong vote for the aforementioned caps-lock as ctrl/esc trick... As someone who spends a lot of time in POSIX-style shells (including using Vim and Vimlike keybindings in zsh), tilde, escape, and ctrl are all pretty important to me.


Okay, perhaps we can make this the default behaviour when Esc is swapped into the Fn layer in favour of ~`.  In other words...

  • Default setting is Esc with ~` in the Fn layer.
  • Setting the DIP to swap ~` out of the Fn layer also turns quick-press-of-Ctrl into Esc.
  • Set another DIP to swap Caps Lock and Ctrl.

Anybody have any objections to this?


This is exactly what I'm asking for, right? I'm just not completely sure that you mean that point 3 will swap ctrl and capslock, where ctrl has the behavior of 1 and 2.. If so, sign me right up sir!

PC
ANSI
Option A Option C Option B
Extra fiberglass plate.
DIY preferred, but fully or partial assembly is also fine.

Also:
How thick are the caps going to be?

Signature Plastics have shown me that PBT isn't everything; mass is key.

PS: This looks like it could become the best 60% ever!
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 August 2014, 10:36:31 by hjkl_over_wasd »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 17:02:23 »

Eek! I just noticed the delete key! I'm still sticking with option A but it's a shame no more keys could be added around the arrow cluster, freeing up some more space for extra keys to the left? Like what I'm using now on my old netbook;

Show Image



Yes, unfortunately, that design didn't test well.




 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.




If [and] only if I can get the following settings defined at the firmware level:
  • Dual role ctrl/esc for the capslock key
  • `~ in place of esc on the regular layer. *NOT* the FN layer.

Yes, will support that via 2 DIP switches.  Set one DIP to swap Ctrl/Caps Lock and enable the dual Ctrl/Esc feature, then set another DIP to swap Esc/~`




Also:
How thick are the caps going to be?

Signature Plastics have shown me that PBT isn't everything; mass is key.


The PBT caps will be thick.  Below photo shows a mockup of one of the new PBT caps next to a standard ABS one.


70290-0



PS: This looks like it could become the best 60% ever!


Looking pretty good so far...  :-)

« Last Edit: Wed, 09 July 2014, 17:04:46 by Matias »

Offline belac

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 17:26:10 »




 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

well i'm using a Quiet Pro as my daily driver now so this would be great for me  :thumb:

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:21:59 »

 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

How did you determine this?  The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch.  I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:29:48 by dante »

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:35:35 »

 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

How did you determine this?  The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch.  I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.

Since he is the producer and vendor, he probably looked at his sales.

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:42:50 »

 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

How did you determine this?  The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch.  I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.

Since he is the producer and vendor, he probably looked at his sales.

Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 09 July 2014, 19:12:21 »
Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?

That's fairly true. I looked into buying a Matias and the only while Mac Tactile Pro limited my options because I prefer that over quiet.
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Offline BearManJim

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 00:05:03 »
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

That is heart-breaking.  :'( I have zero soldering skills so would be unable to build a clicky version myself. If however, an all white quiet version was made available in PC/ISO-UK, I would still seriously consider it...

Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?

Agreed. I've been wanting to purchase a clicky Tactile Pro for PC (ISO UK) in white for years. The Mini Tactile Pro, again Mac only isn't even available in ISO. So I gave up until hearing wind of this 60% beauty...
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Offline Heliosphere

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 00:39:57 »
I'd like to voice my opinion that I would be perfectly satisfied with quiet switches, especially if I'm going to bring this to work.

Edit: Just realized there's no delete key. Any chance one of the bottom function or option keys can be quick switched to delete?
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 00:42:47 by Heliosphere »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 01:48:10 »

 will the fully assembled option  be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?


Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only.  For clicky, DIY is always available.

How did you determine this?  The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch.  I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.


You may be right.  I hope you are, so I've updated the IC to include switches...

      http://matias.ca/60




Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?

Agreed. I've been wanting to purchase a clicky Tactile Pro for PC (ISO UK) in white for years. The Mini Tactile Pro, again Mac only isn't even available in ISO.


We expect to have PC versions of the Tactile Pro early next year -- though they won't be white.  :-)





Edit: Just realized there's no delete key. Any chance one of the bottom function or option keys can be quick switched to delete?


Options A and B have a Delete key next to the right Shift key.  On option C, you can do Delete by pressing Fn-Backspace.

« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 02:13:27 by Matias »

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 02:35:00 »
Edited my previous post to reflect the switch option.
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Offline BearManJim

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 06:38:06 »
Edited my previous post to reflect the switch option.

Me too.  ;)

We expect to have PC versions of the Tactile Pro early next year -- though they won't be white.  :-)

Didn't you get the memo about black being the new beige?  :))
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1164063,00.asp
I appreciate the article's 12 years old but little has changed IMO.
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 06:45:42 by BearManJim »
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Offline geniekid

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 07:37:19 »

Okay, looks like the Full Nav Cluster (option A) is only attractive to PC users.  The (admittedly few) Mac guys are choosing option B.

So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...

      http://matias.ca/60

This option should be more appealing to Mac guys, and perhaps even some of the option B voters.  Ideally, by the end, I'd like to narrow it down to just two options for the GB.

Let me know what you think...



One thing I do on my keyboards is to have Fn+Backspace be Delete.  My layout also has Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), but I think it could still work here.  One reason I don't like the split R-shift is that it makes is a little difficult to type the close-bracket when I'm coding.  That is one time I need that R-shift to extend all the way to the right.

Offline FuriousGeorge

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:52:31 »
Very interested in PC, option A, fully assembled. I could live with either switch type.

Any chance of having an option to remap both alt keys to function? My Tex Beetle has that layout and I really like having the function right under both thumbs. I just wish it was programmable to better take advantage of the function layer. If your're at least mapping everything where I can change it myself with autohotkey that would work great.

One more vote for Colemak and backspace to delete, but that's easy enough to change on my own if necessary.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #73 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:55:23 »
Here are my preferences:

Option B layout
Mac
ANSI
Quiet
Fully Assembled.


thanks for this opportunity.  It is truly a different take on the 60%.  The Matias switch really seems to open up options for irregular sized keycaps.
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:56:56 by prdlm2009 »
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #74 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:12:09 »

Edited my previous post to reflect the switch option.


Thanks, that's a good way.




One thing I do on my keyboards is to have Fn+Backspace be Delete.  My layout also has Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), but I think it could still work here.  One reason I don't like the split R-shift is that it makes is a little difficult to type the close-bracket when I'm coding.  That is one time I need that R-shift to extend all the way to the right.


Understood.

Already planned to have Fn+Backspace be Delete.

For Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), it can be done easily with a few jumpers -- if you're handy with a soldering iron.  If you're not, then there are several people on GH who could do it for you for a fee.  I'll post links to them when the time comes.  I think this is the best solution for requests that don't make the final cut.  It's a little extra hassle, but you'll still be able to get what you want.




thanks for this opportunity.  It is truly a different take on the 60%.  The Matias switch really seems to open up options for irregular sized keycaps.


Thanks for your comment.  Yes, the new caps combined with the switches open up a whole new world of possibilities.  Virtually any layout is do-able in mechanical now.




Any chance of having an option to remap both alt keys to function? My Tex Beetle has that layout and I really like having the function right under both thumbs. I just wish it was programmable to better take advantage of the function layer. If your're at least mapping everything where I can change it myself with autohotkey that would work great.


You're the first person to ask for this, so it may not make it into the final spec.  However, if you're handy with a soldering iron, it's easy to rig up with a few jumpers.  If it helps, I can post the matrix file to simplify things.

And yes, virtually all non-modifier keys will have a unique Fn-layer keycode which you can capture and remap with AutoHotkey.




One more vote for Colemak and backspace to delete, but that's easy enough to change on my own if necessary.


Will consider adding it if enough people request it.




Didn't you get the memo about black being the new beige?  :))
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1164063,00.asp
I appreciate the article's 12 years old but little has changed IMO.


News travels slow here.  :-)

Also, remember that you'll have the option in the GB to get an extra case and paint it any colour you like -- even beige.

« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:25:18 by Matias »

Offline FuriousGeorge

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #75 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:22:57 »
Just realized I mis-typed backspace for delete when I meant change caps lock to backspace. I'm really used to it there now that I've switched to Colemak. Again, easy enough to change in software if it's not in hardware.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #76 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:27:03 »

Just realized I mis-typed backspace for delete when I meant change caps lock to backspace. I'm really used to it there now that I've switched to Colemak. Again, easy enough to change in software if it's not in hardware.



Yes, or in hardware, with a few jumpers.


Offline belac

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #77 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:28:04 »
so I'm pretty new around here and fairly ignorant to group buys in general, so pardon me if this is impolite to ask: what is the usual turnaround time from IC to GB to me annoying my coworkers by showing off my new keyboard?

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 17:43:23 »


so I'm pretty new around here and fairly ignorant to group buys in general, so pardon me if this is impolite to ask: what is the usual turnaround time from IC to GB to me annoying my coworkers by showing off my new keyboard?



There are no hard and fast rules on that, but I can certainly answer for this one...

My plan was to run the IC (interest check) for about 2 weeks, with the (obvious) goal of gauging interest, but also identifying which particular layouts/features people wanted most.  It's only been 4 days and I think most, if not all, of those goals have already been met.

The GB (group buy) will probably run for about a month.  Options that I'm sure we'll get enough orders for will be posted for purchase.  Ones that I'm less confident of achieving MOQ (minimum order quantity) will be set up as a waiting list, or I'll provide referrals to people who can do that mod for you.

Once the GB purchase goals have been met, we'll finish the 3D drawing, and then start tooling it.  The keycap tooling is already underway, so the only tooling required is for the case, mounting plate, and PCB.  For options where we get very few orders, we'll probably still be able to offer them as a kit with a fiberglass mounting plate.  If you don't have the skills to assemble it yourself, I can refer you to somebody who can do it for you for a fee.

The drawing takes about a month.  Tooling takes about 3 months.  Gearing up for production takes about 2 months.  You're looking at about 6 months or so.

It's a slow process, but it's also a unique opportunity to participate in the design process and get something built to (or very close to) your specs, and also to purchase extra items not normally available. 

For example, one of the layout options may not be popular enough to ever go into formal production, so this is your only opportunity to get one (or a few for backup, or backup parts).

Or if you want a different colour case, you'll be able to buy a spare case (or multiples) at a low cost and paint it/them whatever colour suits your fancy.  You may not want to risk painting your expensive new mechanical keyboard red or green, but if you have an extra case (or two) that cost you next-to-nothing, why not?

For comparison, a one-off plastic case done by CNC routinely costs us upwards of $500 to make -- if you can buy a spare for $20, that's really inexpensive.

Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them.  As I said, it's a unique opportunity.

« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 21:45:14 by Matias »

Offline belac

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 17:55:29 »
thanks for the info!

Offline FuriousGeorge

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 18:05:28 »
Is this going to be a normal production keyboard in the future? Is the group buy the only way to get alternate layouts, bare circuit boards and the like and in the future there will be maybe a single pc sku and a single mac sku, or is the group buy the only time it will be available at all? Thanks a lot Matias. I love the way you've taken input on the design and I'm really looking forward to this one.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #81 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 18:37:29 »


Is this going to be a normal production keyboard in the future? Is the group buy the only way to get alternate layouts, bare circuit boards and the like and in the future there will be maybe a single pc sku and a single mac sku, or is the group buy the only time it will be available at all?



Yes, the Group Buy will be the only opportunity to buy parts and get alternate layouts.  We're only doing this once.  More details here...

      http://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.msg1395338#msg1395338

If it proves popular enough to graduate into an on-going product, we probably won't offer more than one layout option.  There may not even be a separate Mac model after the group buy.

We're doing this as an experiment.  We don't know what the final outcome will be.  This may be your only chance to get one.

In fact, if it turns out that there are no further production runs, the few that do get made could become quite valuable.  The mechanical keyboard market is a little crazy in that regard.





Thanks a lot Matias. I love the way you've taken input on the design and I'm really looking forward to this one.



Thanks, we're pretty excited too.  It cuts down our risk, and makes it easier for us to avoid unpopular design choices.  Everybody wins.


« Last Edit: Thu, 10 July 2014, 21:42:22 by Matias »

Offline cgbuen

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #82 on: Thu, 10 July 2014, 22:40:47 »
I'd be interested in a combo like this: PC, ANSI, Option A, DIY Parts (SMD presoldered)

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 01:09:41 »
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row. Why not simply a 65% layout if you want an arrow cluster, with a small gap to the left of the left arrow? (like I recently did).

Anyway very interesting project, if I had to pick a layout as they are now I'd take "Option C".

As per the FN location, in a 60% you use it A LOT and I find it uncomfortable to use in the second spot from the left. You need to bend your thumb too much and developed some sore in a similar layout. To me the best option is in lieu of the left alt key, right beside the spacebar (but I understand it's just personal preference). All this just to say that FN programmability it's a very important factor in a 60%, so at least give some options for that.

thanks for your efforts, I'll keep an eye on this.

Offline Magna224

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:40:07 »
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.


Same.
If you live in AZ you can try my keyboards. I usually keep plenty of different ALPS and MX and buckling springs.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:45:54 »


I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row. Why not simply a 65% layout if you want an arrow cluster, with a small gap to the left of the left arrow? (like I recently did).


You ask why an orange is not a grape.  How to reply?

  :)




As per the FN location, in a 60% you use it A LOT and I find it uncomfortable to use in the second spot from the left. You need to bend your thumb too much and developed some sore in a similar layout. To me the best option is in lieu of the left alt key, right beside the spacebar (but I understand it's just personal preference). All this just to say that FN programmability it's a very important factor in a 60%, so at least give some options for that.


Okay, will consider adding that if more people request it.  If it doesn't make the final cut, it's easy enough to wire up with a few jumpers.




Anyway very interesting project, if I had to pick a layout as they are now I'd take "Option C".

thanks for your efforts, I'll keep an eye on this.


Thanks, the GB will probably go up in another week.


« Last Edit: Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:00:57 by Matias »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #86 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:49:48 »

I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.

Same.



You both might want to consider this...



70466-0


« Last Edit: Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:51:24 by Matias »

Offline JaccoW

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:22:08 »
The Full Nav cluster is growing on me. I changed my choice to that one. :)

Please don't put any extra keys around the arrow-keys. My worklaptop from Dell has that and I HATE it. I use the space to position myself and with extra keys I always hit them.

The Fn key is fine for me like that.

Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legends
« Last Edit: Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:29:05 by JaccoW »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:37:35 »
You both might want to consider this...
I completely agree. But if we’re going to start down that path, the biggest and lowest-hanging pieces of fruit on the ergonomics improvement front are, in my opinion: (1) Add a bit more hand separation (even just shifting all the right-hand keys over by one key width is quite a help) between the hands makes a huge difference, or alternately tilting the hands apart a bit more, as can be achieved by e.g. a symmetric stagger or a column stagger and some rotation. (2) Add some more useful things for the thumbs to do... it’s absurd that with the thumbs being the strongest and most flexible fingers, only one of them gets used on a standard keyboard. (3) Moving the commonly pressed backspace / backward delete key to somewhere that’s less of a reach, (4) bringing the right shift to an easier to reach position, something especially helpful for people with small hands. (With a split spacebar you can knock down 2 & 3 in one stroke). All of these are in my opinion more useful (and just as easy if not easier to achieve) as a taller spacebar.

[For what it’s worth, I think this current 60% board is going to be a great success, and I’m glad to see you guys try new layouts!]
« Last Edit: Fri, 11 July 2014, 04:00:19 by jacobolus »

Offline spiceBar

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 11 July 2014, 04:23:27 »

I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.

Same.



You both might want to consider this...



(Attachment Link)

My studies revealed that in order to type, you must move SOME of your fingers on the keyboard. This causes discomfort to 98.53% of the world population.

Edgar, surely you can solve this once and for all? Please?

PS: I like to have my backspace key under the keyboard. When I make a typo, I smash the keyboard and it activates the backspace key located under it. You just have to design a carefully calibrated spring, and it works beautifully. Surely you can do that? Option 24b maybe?

PS2: I need to talk to you about these keys I put on the sides of the keyboard...

Offline dorkvader

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 02:17:53 »
My studies revealed that in order to type, you must move SOME of your fingers on the keyboard. This causes discomfort to 98.53% of the world population.

Edgar, surely you can solve this once and for all? Please?

PS: I like to have my backspace key under the keyboard. When I make a typo, I smash the keyboard and it activates the backspace key located under it. You just have to design a carefully calibrated spring, and it works beautifully. Surely you can do that? Option 24b maybe?

PS2: I need to talk to you about these keys I put on the sides of the keyboard...
Is this post for real?


On topic: I really like option "A". Of the three, it appeals to me the most. I see myself using it easily, and I imagine it being relatively comfortable. It may be a bit harder for cherry MX switch people to get keycaps for it: other than cutting or DIY options, I only know of pinnacle who made short keycaps like that, and I still don't think large cherry switches will fit under it.

Fortunately, I do have some big bags of matias switches to use :)

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 02:33:09 »

I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.

Same.



You both might want to consider this...



(Attachment Link)

sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.

You wanted a dedicated arrow cluster and you found a smart solution to your problem, I don't think you get enough ergonomic benefit from that though. But what do I know?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 03:41:29 »
sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.
Have you tried it? I think having the bottom edge of the spacebar an extra 3/8" closer to the body is a noticeable improvement.

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #93 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 03:58:47 »
sorry, I always forget to add "IMHO".

EDIT: oh but I added "But what do I know?" it was not sarcastic. I really know nothing about ergonomics.
« Last Edit: Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:43:52 by Matt3o »

Offline twiddle

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #94 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:17:30 »
I'm up for trying something different with the bottom row. I'd consider a
PC, ANSI, Option A, DIY Parts
combo.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #95 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:51:48 »

Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legends

Show Image



Yes, we'll be selling ABS keycaps soon, and will have full PBT available when we have complete tooling.

In the mean time, you can get REAL dye-subbed PBT caps with italic Apple legends very cheaply from a donor board off eBay (as mentioned in this thread).  You just need to soak them clean in a keycap bath...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360985120434
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171384152259
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251584952884




Please don't put any extra keys around the arrow-keys. My worklaptop from Dell has that and I HATE it. I use the space to position myself and with extra keys I always hit them.


Yes, this was discussed in some detail in the other thread.  As you say, those spaces are there for a reason.



You both might want to consider this...
I completely agree. But if we’re going to start down that path, the biggest and lowest-hanging pieces of fruit on the ergonomics improvement front are, in my opinion: (1) Add a bit more hand separation (even just shifting all the right-hand keys over by one key width is quite a help) between the hands makes a huge difference, or alternately tilting the hands apart a bit more, as can be achieved by e.g. a symmetric stagger or a column stagger and some rotation. (2) Add some more useful things for the thumbs to do... it’s absurd that with the thumbs being the strongest and most flexible fingers, only one of them gets used on a standard keyboard. (3) Moving the commonly pressed backspace / backward delete key to somewhere that’s less of a reach, (4) bringing the right shift to an easier to reach position, something especially helpful for people with small hands. (With a split spacebar you can knock down 2 & 3 in one stroke). All of these are in my opinion more useful (and just as easy if not easier to achieve) as a taller spacebar.


That is WAY beyond the scope of this project.  :)

Really, if you need something ergonomic, the Ergo Pro is what you want.




[For what it’s worth, I think this current 60% board is going to be a great success, and I’m glad to see you guys try new layouts!]


Thanks, we're pretty hopeful too!




On topic: I really like option "A". Of the three, it appeals to me the most. I see myself using it easily, and I imagine it being relatively comfortable. It may be a bit harder for cherry MX switch people to get keycaps for it: other than cutting or DIY options, I only know of pinnacle who made short keycaps like that, and I still don't think large cherry switches will fit under it.


Thanks and FYI...  Only the top 4 rows support Cherry switches.  Cherrys are too big to fit the arrow keys.  Bottom row is ALPS only.



sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.
Have you tried it? I think having the bottom edge of the spacebar an extra 3/8" closer to the body is a noticeable improvement.


You really would have to try it, to be convinced.  I used a prototype for several weeks, and it was noticeably more comfortable.

We also put a nice rounded curve on the spacebar where your thumbs make contact.  This makes it even more comfortable.  Many spacebars have a sharp edge where your thumbs touch.
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 July 2014, 15:33:22 by Matias »

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:58:10 »
You really would have to try it, to be convinced.  I used a prototype for several weeks, and it was noticeably more comfortable.

We also put a nice rounded curve on the spacebar where your thumb makes contact.  This makes it even more comfortable.  Many spacebars have a sharp edge where the thumb touches.

I'm actually looking forward to trying it. I'll probably catch this just because I like to try different things and I'm a bit fed up of all these all-the-same 60% layout.

The only think that I ask is for a re-locable FN key. I can reprogram all the keys but not FN.

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #97 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:03:18 »
Here, these (IMHO) should be the available options for FN.


Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #98 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:26:27 »

I'm actually looking forward to trying it. I'll probably catch this just because I like to try different things and I'm a bit fed up of all these all-the-same 60% layout.

The only think that I ask is for a re-locable FN key. I can reprogram all the keys but not FN.



Here, these (IMHO) should be the available options for FN.

Show Image



Okay, will see what I can do.  At the bare minimum, i can post instructions for where to solder the jumpers.



Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #99 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:38:38 »
In the mean time, you can get REAL dye-subbed PBT caps with italic Apple legends very cheaply from a donor board off eBay (as mentioned in this thread).  You just need to soak them clean in a keycap scrub bath...
Note, PBT keycaps from the 80s / early 90s (including Apple’s) don’t really experience much yellowing, or benefit from retrobrite [the cases and ABS spacebars on the other hand...]. What they do get is dirty, so I’d recommend soaking them in denture cleaner or detergent, and maybe scrubbing the especially dirty ones a bit with a sponge.
« Last Edit: Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:41:21 by jacobolus »