[IC]GMK Triumph Adler [LIVE!!!!]

[heedpantsnow]

There will not be a poll or any additional keys. I am thinking about what to do about the winkey and I will make a decision in the next day or two. That and the colors. Nothing else is subject to change. I have heard people's concerns about the Winkeys and I am taking them seriously.

You're the boss (and we're thankful for all your hard work); you guys have done a stellar job with the design. Thanks for listening to people's opinions!

[Schrikvis]

Apparently people can't decide on the winkey printing, either because the win95 logo would be pad-printed (which does wear more easily and looks worse overall) or because the win8 logo is not nearly as timeless and even less historically accurate in the context of this keyset.
I'd have preferred a win1.0 logo, but that'd be even more out of place, although in a general keyboard-sense as these would be faux-retro.

My suggestion would be to keep the winkey blank, so OS neutrality is preserved and no one actually gets violently turned off by them. We can't have people not participating in the group buy for something as petty as a winkey print with such a high minimum order quantity.

[nubbinator]

Blank winkey looks like ****.  It's one of the few things that immediately kills a set for me.  I'd rather have a pad printed picture of Elvis on the key than have it blank.

I actually recommended the 1.0 a while back since it's more accurate (of course wwinkeyless is the most accurate).  I'd prefer 7 or 8 since they'd be doubleshot, but 1.0 is better than 95 if it had to be pad printed.

[cjhard]

I vote to ship with no win-key at all. Saves a few bucks, historically accurate, and nobody has to be disappointed when they discover the Superman key has a weird flag with window panes on it.

[spookydoge]

Blank winkey looks like ****.  It's one of the few things that immediately kills a set for me.  I'd rather have a pad printed picture of Elvis on the key than have it blank.

I actually recommended the 1.0 a while back since it's more accurate (of course wwinkeyless is the most accurate).  I'd prefer 7 or 8 since they'd be doubleshot, but 1.0 is better than 95 if it had to be pad printed.

But don't you think it would make the most sense to use blanks if the choice is between 3 different logos, and everyone hates 1 - 3 of them? No matter which design the set goes with, some people will hate the design. I do believe that blanks would make more people happy than any of the logos.

I vote to ship with no win-key at all. Saves a few bucks, historically accurate, and nobody has to be disappointed when they discover the Superman key has a weird flag with window panes on it.

Even a logo which people won't like would be better than having no winkey, as a keyboard would look pretty bad with this entire set and no/a different winkey. This is the only time we'll ever get keycaps in this color, so it would be stupid to not have a winkey in that color.

[Lastpilot]

I say modern Windows 7 or 8 would be good.  If we're just doing the Windows 95 logo because it's retro, it's really the wrong time frame.  If you want the appropriate Windows logo, it should be something like the Windows 2.0 logo for a Triumph Adler machine, so something like this:

Show Image

I go, in order, Windows 7 or 8, pad printed Windows 2.0, pad printed Win 95, blank.

+1 for period accurate logo

[spookydoge]

I say modern Windows 7 or 8 would be good.  If we're just doing the Windows 95 logo because it's retro, it's really the wrong time frame.  If you want the appropriate Windows logo, it should be something like the Windows 2.0 logo for a Triumph Adler machine, so something like this:

Show Image

I go, in order, Windows 7 or 8, pad printed Windows 2.0, pad printed Win 95, blank.

+1 for period accurate logo

But even on the windows key, the pad printing will eventually wear off (or just start looking bad). I still believe that blank (or, although I don't really like the logos, win7 or win8 doubleshot) is the way to go. We currently have people who want the win1.0 logo, win95, win7 and win8. Only a single winkey will be included, so about half the people will be unhappy with the logo no matter which one the set goes with. While it would be the best case to have the different logos as options, this is unfortunately not happening so I believe it would be best to stay OS and era neutral and go with blanks.

[sethk_]

I say modern Windows 7 or 8 would be good.  If we're just doing the Windows 95 logo because it's retro, it's really the wrong time frame.  If you want the appropriate Windows logo, it should be something like the Windows 2.0 logo for a Triumph Adler machine, so something like this:

Show Image

I go, in order, Windows 7 or 8, pad printed Windows 2.0, pad printed Win 95, blank.

+1 for period accurate logo

But even on the windows key, the pad printing will eventually wear off (or just start looking bad). I still believe that blank (or, although I don't really like the logos, win7 or win8 doubleshot) is the way to go. We currently have people who want the win1.0 logo, win95, win7 and win8. Only a single winkey will be included, so about half the people will be unhappy with the logo no matter which one the set goes with. While it would be the best case to have the different logos as options, this is unfortunately not happening so I believe it would be best to stay OS and era neutral and go with blanks.

GMK Pad Printing apparently takes a very long time to wear off, and that is with regular use, and the windows key is not that frequently used, so it would easily last a long time before it started to wear.

[nubbinator]

Blank looks like **** wwith a set.  I'd rather have a less than perfect pad printed logo than a blank key.  Blank keys mixed with printed are aesthetically unpleasant and are a  instant killer of a set for me.  The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

[jdcarpe]

The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

^ This

I don't care whether the double shot logo is Win7 or Win8. And does GMK have a Win 1.0 logo for pad printing? I suppose they could use any vector image, though.

[spookydoge]

Blank looks like **** wwith a set.  I'd rather have a less than perfect pad printed logo than a blank key.  Blank keys mixed with printed are aesthetically unpleasant and are a  instant killer of a set for me.  The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

But this is not possible, as no new keycaps will be added, so only a single design will be included. You'd need at least 2 printed versions to make most people happy, which is why I suggested blanks.

[jdcarpe]

Blank looks like **** wwith a set.  I'd rather have a less than perfect pad printed logo than a blank key.  Blank keys mixed with printed are aesthetically unpleasant and are a  instant killer of a set for me.  The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

But this is not possible, as no new keycaps will be added, so only a single design will be included. You'd need at least 2 printed versions to make most people happy, which is why I suggested blanks.

It's possible if intelli78 will add the keys.

As I said before, it's a tough pill to swallow to admit you need to change something once you say it's locked in. But sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just do it, for the sake of the buy reaching MOQ.

[sethk_]

Blank looks like **** wwith a set.  I'd rather have a less than perfect pad printed logo than a blank key.  Blank keys mixed with printed are aesthetically unpleasant and are a  instant killer of a set for me.  The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

But this is not possible, as no new keycaps will be added, so only a single design will be included. You'd need at least 2 printed versions to make most people happy, which is why I suggested blanks.

and it is a blank cap, so 4 caps would be added to account for 1u and 1.25u, which would only add like 1 dollar.

It's possible if intelli78 will add the keys.

As I said before, it's a tough pill to swallow to admit you need to change something once you say it's locked in. But sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just do it, for the sake of the buy reaching MOQ.

[spookydoge]

I say modern Windows 7 or 8 would be good.  If we're just doing the Windows 95 logo because it's retro, it's really the wrong time frame.  If you want the appropriate Windows logo, it should be something like the Windows 2.0 logo for a Triumph Adler machine, so something like this:

Show Image

I go, in order, Windows 7 or 8, pad printed Windows 2.0, pad printed Win 95, blank.

+1 for period accurate logo

But even on the windows key, the pad printing will eventually wear off (or just start looking bad). I still believe that blank (or, although I don't really like the logos, win7 or win8 doubleshot) is the way to go. We currently have people who want the win1.0 logo, win95, win7 and win8. Only a single winkey will be included, so about half the people will be unhappy with the logo no matter which one the set goes with. While it would be the best case to have the different logos as options, this is unfortunately not happening so I believe it would be best to stay OS and era neutral and go with blanks.

GMK Pad Printing apparently takes a very long time to wear off, and that is with regular use, and the windows key is not that frequently used, so it would easily last a long time before it started to wear.

There will still be a slight difference in aesthetics and, more noticable, texture. I don't know how long the winkey printing would last, but even a "long time" doesn't sound that good as there will be no way to get replacements, as this will most likely be the only run ever, while doubleshot/blank will last practically forever.

Blank looks like **** wwith a set.  I'd rather have a less than perfect pad printed logo than a blank key.  Blank keys mixed with printed are aesthetically unpleasant and are a  instant killer of a set for me.  The best option, IMO, is doing a pad printed cap, be it the accurate 1.0 or 95, and a doubleshot.

But this is not possible, as no new keycaps will be added, so only a single design will be included. You'd need at least 2 printed versions to make most people happy, which is why I suggested blanks.

It's possible if intelli78 will add the keys.

As I said before, it's a tough pill to swallow to admit you need to change something once you say it's locked in. But sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just do it, for the sake of the buy reaching MOQ.

Well, he did specifically say that he would not add any additional keys, but he might change his mind, as we really aren't coming to an agreement and a lot of people would be unhappy with every single option, and we do have to meet the MOQ...

[nubbinator]

He said he was considering adding the doubleshot.

And I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.  A blank key has a larger negative impact on a set than a slightly off legend.  Blank keys tend to be a bigger deal breaker for people.

[Schrikvis]

Pad printing on such a nice set would be quite the dissapointment, though.
It'd subtract quite a bit from the otherwise super high quality, at least to me.
There needs to be a balance between keeping it historically accurate and attractive to as many people as possible.
Keeping it blank would be playing it safe; the actual keyboard never had a winkey in the first place, after all, and if they did it would be blank.

The GMK Dolch GB also went with a blank winkey, as the actual Dolch keyboard never had a windows/meta key.

[whentheclouds]

Pretty sure the context key is already double shot.

even so, would you really want a win8 logo next to an offcentered retro menu logo?

i can't speak for intelli but if i were in his shoes i'd just say **** it and run the GB as is, like how he solved the blue vs teal debate. having people fighting over the windows key of all things, so close to the start date, must be frustrating to say the least. as a buyer though, i wouldn't mind spending an extra $3-4 so everyone is happy.

[nubbinator]

Pretty sure the context key is already double shot.

even so, would you really want a win8 logo next to an offcentered retro menu logo?

Yes, I would.  The Windows 8 logo is closer to the time appropriate Windows 1.0 logo than the Win 95 logo.

having people fighting over the windows key of all things, so close to the start date, must be frustrating to say the least. as a buyer though, i wouldn't mind spending an extra $3-4 so everyone is happy.

Is it frustrating, yes, but when you have a massive MOQ, something like the Windows key can be huge.  You need to keep the price low but also make sure it's something that people will buy.  That's why JD and I are pushing for additional modern Winkeys alongside whatever pad printed retro one.  It's a marginal cost increase, but it keeps those who would otherwise abandon ship.  It's a much better plan than a blank Windows key which I know more people are vocally against than an odd Winkey.

[whentheclouds]

good points, but at the same time i also sympathize with intelli who is now put in a very delicate situation. eating his own words and adding more keys despite explicitly saying he wouldn't multiple times, that's difficult. and tbh i doubt it's a matter of pride, maybe he just thinks the extra cost might lose him as many MD/rmk customers as settling on a particular winkey design.

agreed about blanks, they're a ****ty, half assed compromise that shouldn't even be considered.

[bueller]

Adding 2 keys to this set will only increase the number of orders we get, there is no way I can see it hurting us. People who are already  spending over a hundred dollars on a set aren't going to suddenly bail because it costs $116 instead of $115.

Blanks hurt us, people will drop out. Pad printing, same.

[nubbinator]

Adding 2 keys to this set will only increase the number of orders we get, there is no way I can see it hurting us. People who are already  spending over a hundred dollars on a set aren't going to suddenly bail because it costs $116 instead of $115.

Blanks hurt us, people will drop out. Pad printing, same.

[LechnerDE]

I just caught up on this thread and here are my 2cents concerning the win key situation:

Whatever you do, don't do blanks please. It will look so freaking odd on an otherwise perfect set. The human eye will immediately spot a key that is supposed to have a legend and it will drive me crazy...

Therefore I totally agree with nubbinator. Personally I have no problem with paying a little more to have options. but I can see why Intelli doesn't wanna change things and keep them as cheap as possible.

I'd be fine with pad printing, but if there is a possibility for a double shot legend I'd say go for it

[intelli78]

Alright, I have received the new color chips and made some decisions.

Colors: sticking with blue 7694 C and gray 7543 C.. For teal we will use 315 M. Compare to 5473 C, what it'll be replacing. I selected 315 M out of at least 50-60 new alternatives, it's the best one. Here's a pic, but if I have learned anything so far, it's that matching computer colors and IRL colors is almost impossible, and completely impossible when dealing with multiple peoples' monitors. So have a look, notice the increased blue values vs. the old chip, but please remember there are lots of factors between what you're seeing and what I have IRL. But trust me, 315 M is a dope color.



For the winkey: We will get rid of the pad printed 95 logo and do a doubleshot Win 7 logo. We will also use the corresponding Win 7 menu doubleshot.  The only reason I am changing this is because I agree that a few pad printed keys will become a problem in the Massdrop comments.

Sorry to all the bros who wanted the 95 logo. I did too. The Win7 is the next most attractive logo, not as timeless but nowhere near as terrible as Win8.

To anyone who is going to b1tch and threaten to drop their order because of it: please try to think about the big picture and if the winkey is really going to ruin your enjoyment of the whole set. I personally prefer 95 but I know I'm not gonna let this ruin my fun. Honestly I don't see how one key can make or break a once-in-a-lifetime set like this. And if you decide it does ruin everything for you... well... GTFO ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm also going to tweak 2 other things.

• Scrap the Fn. I reluctantly left it in when discussing the set with Photekq earlier but it doesn't belong. What I wanted to achieve with this set was to minimize the number of keys while still allowing people to cover as many common layouts as possible. How? Through compromises on legends. For example this set will cover Filco 87/104, winkeyless, 1800, HHKB, Pure, MX Mini, and moar. Not all legends are perfect, but it saves 10-20 keys and makes the MOQ actually reachable.. The Fn doesn't help this goal. It's only relevant to HHKB and Pure style layouts, and for those you can use the up arrow instead.
• Turn the 2 spare gray spacebars into teal spacebars. I am not going to offer any spare gray spacebars at all. For some reason spacebars have come to be seen as "more important" replacement keys than any other keys, worthy of being offered on their own. Well, the fact is, by the time your spacebar starts to show noticeable shine, so will some of your alphas. And it hardly makes sense to replace your spacebar with a a pristine one while you still have a bunch of other shiny keys. So, we'll turn them into teal spacebars which are much more badass and should be made while we have the chance. Also, I personally think replacement spacebars are only enabling and perpetuating anti-shine histrionics. Almost every product you own and use shows wear. Wallet, phone, car, computer, etc., and people don't flip out over that. For some reason we have become a bunch of Nancies with regard to GMK shine. I say embrace the shine. If your precious brain really can't handle the idea of that, then I suggest buying 2 sets, one to use and one to safely stored in your ass.

I have thought about counterarguments. Maybe there is some obscure layout the Fn will help, maybe Massdrop people will complain about no spare spacebars, etc. Well, I am willing to take the risks.

No moar changes will be made, do not ask!! I hope to have the drop up as soon as the end of the week.

[monotagary]

Alright, I have received the new color chips and made some decisions.

Colors: sticking with blue 7694 C and gray 7543 C.. For teal we will use 315 M. Compare to 5473 C, what it'll be replacing. I selected 315 M out of at least 50-60 new alternatives, it's the best one. Here's a pic, but if I have learned anything so far, it's that matching computer colors and IRL colors is almost impossible, and completely impossible when dealing with multiple peoples' monitors. So have a look, notice the increased blue values vs. the old chip, but please remember there are lots of factors between what you're seeing and what I have IRL. But trust me, 315 M is a dope color.

Show Image

For the winkey: We will get rid of the pad printed 95 logo and do a doubleshot Win 7 logo. We will also use the corresponding Win 7 menu doubleshot.  The only reason I am changing this is because I agree that a few pad printed keys will become a problem in the Massdrop comments.

Sorry to all the bros who wanted the 95 logo. I did too. The Win7 is the next most attractive logo, not as timeless but nowhere near as terrible as Win8.

To anyone who is going to b1tch and threaten to drop their order because of it: please try to think about the big picture and if the winkey is really going to ruin your enjoyment of the whole set. I personally prefer 95 but I know I'm not gonna let this ruin my fun. Honestly I don't see how one key can make or break a once-in-a-lifetime set like this. And if you decide it does ruin everything for you... well... GTFO ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm also going to tweak 2 other things.

• Scrap the Fn. I reluctantly left it in when discussing the set with Photekq earlier but it doesn't belong. What I wanted to achieve with this set was to minimize the number of keys while still allowing people to cover as many common layouts as possible. How? Through compromises on legends. For example this set will cover Filco 87/104, winkeyless, 1800, HHKB, Pure, MX Mini, and moar. Not all legends are perfect, but it saves 10-20 keys and makes the MOQ actually reachable.. The Fn doesn't help this goal. It's only relevant to HHKB and Pure style layouts, and for those you can use the up arrow instead.
• Turn the 2 gray spacebars into teal spacebars. I am not going to offer any spare gray spacebars at all. For some reason spacebars have come to be seen as "more important" replacement keys than any other keys, worthy of being offered on their own. Well, the fact is, by the time your spacebar starts to show noticeable shine, so will some of your alphas. And it hardly makes sense to replace your spacebar with a a pristine one while you still have a bunch of other shiny keys. So, we'll turn them into teal spacebars which are much more badass and should be made while we have the chance. Also, I personally think replacement spacebars are only enabling and perpetuating anti-shine histrionics. Almost every product you own and use shows wear. Wallet, phone, car, computer, etc., and people don't flip out over that. For some reason we have become a bunch of Nancies with regard to GMK shine. I say embrace the shine. If your precious brain really can't handle the idea of that, then I suggest buying 2 sets, one to use and one to safely stored in your ass.

I have thought about counterarguments. Maybe there is some obscure layout the Fn will help, maybe Massdrop people will complain about no spare spacebars, etc. Well, I am willing to take the risks.

No moar changes will be made, do not ask!! I hope to have the drop up as soon as the end of the week.

I think it sounds great intelli, you've worked really hard on this GB and I'm hoping that we can all work together to make it work. I think the colors look great and I think that your compromises are great and most people should be happy.

[jdcarpe]

Good choice of colors!

And good compromise on the winkey. I think that is 100% the way to go.

Teal spacebars? What kind of madness is this?!?! Seriously, spacebars match the alphas, always and forever. I don't even care about spacebar shine, and this makes me question your sanity.

[intelli78]

Teal spacebars? What kind of madness is this?!?! Seriously, spacebars match the alphas, always and forever. I don't even care about spacebar shine, and this makes me question your sanity.

The 2 spare spacebars at the bottom of the render. There will be 4 total just like before, but 2 will be teal instead of all 4 gray.

- Gray 6.25x
- Gray 7x
- Teal 6.25x
- Teal 7x

[jdcarpe]

Teal spacebars? What kind of madness is this?!?! Seriously, spacebars match the alphas, always and forever. I don't even care about spacebar shine, and this makes me question your sanity.

The 2 spare spacebars at the bottom of the render. There will be 4 total just like before, but 2 will be teal instead of all 4 gray.

Sure, sure. But it's still crazy, I tell ya.

[intelli78]

Sure, sure. But it's still crazy, I tell ya.

[whentheclouds]

gonna be the bestest set of all time 

[user 18]

/prepares wallet

Win7 logo is my favourite windows logo, and I love that colour. Much want.

[bueller]

As a Pure layout user I agree on losing the fn, I actually kind of prefer the way the up arrow looks in that location anyway. And we're a pretty small subset of the mechanical world so probably doesn't affect too many people.

Cheers for putting up with all these suggestions man, this set will be awesome.

[pr0ximity]

Those teal spacebars are going to look bad ass. Great choices intelli, wallet at the ready 

[heedpantsnow]

Great with all the changes. Color choices are probably spot on, though like you said it's a crapshoot unless we are all calibrated.

Thank you for the changes with the Winkeys. I think that's the wisest move.

You've put a TON of work into this, and we are all soooo appreciative. Thank you!

[Heliosphere]

I'm a little disappointed that the Fn is being removed but I trust your judgement and I agree on everything else. Thanks for your hard work!

[exitfire401]

Loving the final decisions. Can't wait to add this to my collection.

[feizor]

With the amount of work that's gone into this GB, it would be offensive not to join.

[Fnzzy]

Yes! This looks amazing!

Oh no, my bank account does not look as amazing!

[strict]

Very happy with both the win key decision and the inclusion of the teal spacebars. Thanks for all your hard work, intelli! This set is a no question guaranteed buy for me now. 

[stoic-lemon]

I'm on this train! Choo choo!

[Den441]

I'm also pleased with that decision. Now the only thing left to do is wait....and figure out what board is worthy of these caps.

[VinnyCordeiro]

and figure out what board is worthy of these caps.

That's exactly my concern now.

[CommonCurt]

By the end of the week?  Nice   

Love the colors, and good choice for the win keys.  If you're not going to go with the Win95 logo then I think Win7 is the second best choice.

[HoffmanMyster]

Excellent way to resolve the situation, intelli.      I still think that threatening to pull out of a buy like this over one key is ridiculous, but I think your solution will make the most people happy as possible.  And some custom color spacebars?  I agree with JD that it's insane to use those with this set, but they should be some nice accents for other sets. 

[nubbinator]

Excellent way to resolve the situation, intelli.      I still think that threatening to pull out of a buy like this over one key is ridiculous, but I think your solution will make the most people happy as possible.  And some custom color spacebars?  I agree with JD that it's insane to use those with this set, but they should be some nice accents for other sets. 

You have to think like the masses Hoff.  It'd be a no go for me with a blank winkey, so I'm glad for the resolution. I would still have gladly been in with pad printed, though I'd prefer doubleshot.  That said, you have to remember that on Massdrop, you're largely dealing with the Reddit type crowd and the even less informed.  A mixed set could have been devastating since people think of the crappy pad printing that wears off in a year.  You have to do everything you can to make sure you can hit that MOQ.

I do wish intelli kept his pad printed cap and just added the doubleshot, but I get the change and respect him for it. 

[sethk_]

DS Win 7 works for me.

[HoffmanMyster]

Excellent way to resolve the situation, intelli.      I still think that threatening to pull out of a buy like this over one key is ridiculous, but I think your solution will make the most people happy as possible.  And some custom color spacebars?  I agree with JD that it's insane to use those with this set, but they should be some nice accents for other sets. 

You have to think like the masses Hoff.  It'd be a no go for me with a blank winkey, so I'm glad for the resolution. I would still have gladly been in with pad printed, though I'd prefer doubleshot.  That said, you have to remember that on Massdrop, you're largely dealing with the Reddit type crowd and the even less informed.  A mixed set could have been devastating since people think of the crappy pad printing that wears off in a year.  You have to do everything you can to make sure you can hit that MOQ.

I do wish intelli kept his pad printed cap and just added the doubleshot, but I get the change and respect him for it.

I do understand that logic.    It seemed like a lot of people here were complaining though, and it is a valid complaint but not a reason to opt out of the set IMO (obviously I can't truly judge how you spend your money though ).  I really dislike the idea of a blank winkey, but I would have still bought the set since there's no second chance at this.

[dyrdevil]

As a Pure layout user I agree on losing the fn, I actually kind of prefer the way the up arrow looks in that location anyway. And we're a pretty small subset of the mechanical world so probably doesn't affect too many people.

Cheers for putting up with all these suggestions man, this set will be awesome.

Out of curiosity, where do people put their function keys on a 60% board if not in that location?  Would it take the place of a menu key?

[intelli78]

The guys duplicating the color after it has yellowed to teal are being silly. The original bluer color was really fantastic (I looked at the bottom of a cap). The new color is going to look much worse after it yellows I’m guessing.

[reformingpanda]

I REALLY wanted the win95 key, but I'm fine with a win7 or win8 key.  I'm just glad it's not blank.  Would have loved to get a doubleshot win8 key and the pad printed 95 key together, but honestly there's no version that would keep me from wanting to get this set so it's all good.  I'm so excited for this GB.  I seriously check this thread like every day for any news about it.  So let's do this thing!

[ghostjuggernaut]

Just caught up over the past couple days. I'm happy with your decisions, not that it matters.

I'm starting to have more planned/coming sets than boards. I love it!