Author Topic: why do they make keyboards with keypads anymore? (Read 10722 times)

shrap · « **Reply #50 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:03:34 »

It's sad that "fear of change" is why most things are built the way they are now. People are afraid of non-standard layouts and ergonomic/split designs, even if they've never tried them. There are people out there who say "I need an ergonomic keyboard, but it can't look weird and space-age." Because the stupid gray hunk on plastic on your desk is more important than the correction functioning of your hands, wrists, and shoulders.

megarat · « **Reply #51 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:41:51 »

Quote from: ripster;109365

TG3 BL-82

OT (sorta): I looked up the TG3 BL82 online just now, and it looks just like (as in completely identical to) the Deck 82. What's up with that? Is one of them (or both) OEM jobs?

Eclairz · « **Reply #52 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:44:40 »

Quote from: Bollwerk;109086

A Great example for that (at least in my opinion) is the G80-1800 or G81-1800.

You don't have to abdicate something and everything is in good reach. I really like this layout, but they are only available with MY- and black MX-switches.
(Or you have to search a lot in Asia.)

I own a g80-1800 and removed the blacks for some blues, i'm still' using it. i just use auto hotkey to change the layout of home,end,pgup,etc to my liking and it becomes a very usuable keyboard.

requires about 2 hours to swap out the springs and key stems. all you need is a key puller and two flat headed precision screwdrivers and of course another keyboard with browns (in my case the compaq mx keyboard is a cheap keyboard to obtain browns from).

I have felt only slight benefits in typing and mousing but it does save a great deal of desk space. Its not the perfect layout and your forced to use control key more over the insert, delete, home as they are harder to reach but overall is very usable for a programmer like me

itlnstln · « **Reply #53 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:45:57 »

Quote from: megarat;109483

OT (sorta): I looked up the TG3 BL82 online just now, and it looks just like (as in completely identical to) the Deck 82. What's up with that? Is one of them (or both) OEM jobs?

From what I understand, Deck is the gaming subdivision of TG3. They are one in the same.

cmr · « **Reply #54 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 14:14:53 »

it's mindblowing that people are still speculating about "fear of change" and "momentum" and a whole bunch of nonsense. the reason i buy keyboards with the number pad is that i use the number pad. if you go to Fry's and look at the keyboards, there are plenty of smaller rubber-dome and scissor keyboards without number pads, right there next to the rubber-dome and scissor keyboards with number pads. the market supplies a limited number of these smaller layouts because there is only limited demand for them.

it is faster and easier to enter numbers using the number pad with my right hand. the number row is slower and less comfortable. the claim that the number row is better for numeric entry in any way strikes me as absurd, and probably straight-up fabricated.

if you don't use the number pad, fine, but seriously... this one is really, really simple. keyboard makers are shipping number pads because a lot of people use them. there's nothing complex or mysterious about it. comparisons to the failure of non-QWERTY layouts to penetrate the market are not really useful, because that's a different and unrelated issue.

i'm reminded of a co-worker of mine, whose number pad failed on his split keyboard. all day long it was "this keyboard is broken" and "i can't use this keyboard", until i finally dug up a replacement. the alphanumeric section still worked. but he had numbers to type; without the number pad, the keyboard was broken.

o2dazone · « **Reply #55 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 14:22:01 »

relax turbo, no one is saying you're flawed for using one - we're justifying the benefits for not having one, it's pretty evident we all know what a number pad is good for

o2dazone · « **Reply #56 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 14:28:26 »

Quote from: ripster;109515

Some do, some don't. Personal taste. Like switches.

no you don't understand - if you don't use the number pad like me I swear to god I'll be really angry in my next post arghhh *shakes fist*

itlnstln · « **Reply #57 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 14:45:21 »

Quote from: webwit;109525

The problem is you are most likely not only inputting numbers but mixed unless you're a troll from accounting, and we don't care. So then it's a long way to the right. Also with two hands from the home row you cover much more than with one hand.

QFT. The only reason I still hold on to my numpad is because I work in retail and type a lot of UPC codes, retails, etc. If I were a writer, strict programmer, etc., I would be more indifferent to numpads.

That said, if there was an integrated numpad a la the Model M mini or Realforce, that would be fine by me.

Bollwerk · « **Reply #58 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 15:37:56 »

As I said earlier. I would use the separate numpad anyway, because - at least in case of cherry's - they are programmable and they have some very usefull extra buttons.

If I don't need it, I could place it aside and have more space. It is just a plus for flexibility and trust me, guys: There are so many noobs out there... it won't matter as much as you might think.

Some of my collegues don't use a numpad... for numbers! They don't use hotkeys and have a slow and amateurish way of using windows anyway. Those people would care more about that marketing thing... "what? I don't wanna have less..."
Rarely those people ask for some if using a notebook. So what?

If your keyboard don't has one, you can get some. If your keyboard already has a numpad, you simply just can't cut it off, if you like.

Rajagra · « **Reply #59 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 15:47:50 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;109414

I think it's safe to say that there will be not big manufacturer which will start offering DVORAK instead.

Well, Cherry makes a Klingon keyboard, so stranger things have happened!

cmr · « **Reply #60 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 16:12:33 »

Quote from: o2dazone;109514

relax turbo, no one is saying you're flawed for using one - we're justifying the benefits for not having one, it's pretty evident we all know what a number pad is good for

except, no... the thread questions why manufacturers even still make them. i'm not confused as to why manufacturers make keyboards without them (some people prefer it like that). but to question why manufacturers still sell keyboards with the number pad? the only appropriate response to that question is incredulity.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #61 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 16:12:39 »

Quote from: ripster;109561

DSI makes the Mac Modular with movable numpad. Somebody buy one and post a review.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5141

shrap · « **Reply #62 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 17:01:45 »

Quote from: Bollwerk;109554

If your keyboard don't has one, you can get some. If your keyboard already has a numpad, you simply just can't cut it off, if you like.

Removing a number pad is surprisingly easy on some rubber dome keyboards. I've done two of these, but after a while the circuit board starts to migrate and keys stop working.

Bollwerk · « **Reply #63 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 17:13:20 »

I think, the headline is a bit confusing.

No one wants to anihilate all numpadkeyboards. The market just doesn't offer enough tenkeyless keyboards to create equality or a good variety.

Most people don't consider a tenkeyless and that's the problem because everyone has the idea of an keyboard offering a numpad. It is just standard.

quadibloc · « **Reply #64 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 20:16:05 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;109143

Like someone else has pointed out, we are very resistant to change. Otherwise, Dvorak would be the layout of choice.

True enough. But manufacturers don't need to make a special Dvorak keyboard, except for putting the keycaps in different locations - switching to Dvorak, or a German keyboard or a French keyboard is done in the operating system, which translates scan codes to ASCII differently.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #65 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 21:47:45 »

Quote from: quadibloc;109630

True enough. But manufacturers don't need to make a special Dvorak keyboard, except for putting the keycaps in different locations - switching to Dvorak, or a German keyboard or a French keyboard is done in the operating system, which translates scan codes to ASCII differently.

Somehow, I doubt that Dvorak keyboards where the keycaps have been put in different locations from the Qwerty keyboards would sell in huge quantities. Most people would look at them and say that they don't like this different (weird?) layout. I also doubt if there are many people in North America who know that there are various keyboard layouts. I was once at Staples, and heard a lady asking the sales person why she could not get some of the characters on a bilingual keyboard to work. Besides Apple, Lenovo and Dell, all laptops in Canada are not equipped with bilingual keyboards. The Staples employee had no clue although he worked in the computer section.

MsKeyboard · « **Reply #66 on:** Thu, 13 August 2009, 23:52:39 »

Welly and Ripster,
We still do not have any of the modules for the Mac Modular yet, should start appearing soon though. I will make sure to post something when they come in and we can try them out.
I am getting used to the Blue Cherry version, so adding the modules should be interesting. What will be nice is the ability to make this keyboard a left or right hand version on the fly, and still have USB ports open.
Later.......

o2dazone · « **Reply #67 on:** Fri, 14 August 2009, 09:47:47 »

Quote from: cmr;109562

except, no... the thread questions why manufacturers even still make them. i'm not confused as to why manufacturers make keyboards without them (some people prefer it like that). but to question why manufacturers still sell keyboards with the number pad? the only appropriate response to that question is incredulity.

Oh sorry, I took your previous response as a counter argument to what I had just posted, and was just going off the momentum that the original thread was only slightly being derailed. Carry on folks nothing to see here.

But to address the OP's question, "for the same reason why they make them without

"

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #68 on:** Fri, 14 August 2009, 09:52:43 »

Quote from: o2dazone;109713

But to address the OP's question, "for the same reason why they make them without "

That's a good one. It made me smile. In the same line of thinking, we can also add: "Because they can" or "Why not?" :evil:

quadibloc · « **Reply #69 on:** Tue, 18 August 2009, 23:02:27 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;109640

Besides Apple, Lenovo and Dell, all laptops in Canada are not equipped with bilingual keyboards.

I've noticed lately that many models of laptop - specifically, Toshiba, Sony, and HP - are now only available with bilingual keyboards in stores in my area of Canada. This would not be a problem if they simply added extra legends to the keys. But since the Canadian-French keyboard, like most other international keyboards, requires the extra 102nd key, it affects the layout, usually placing an extra key between Z and the left-hand shift key.

Since very few English-speaking computer users in Canada have a requirement for being able to type French on a computer keyboard (indeed, they're about as likely to be able to understand French as an American is to understand Spanish), I'm surprised this doesn't just render those laptops unsalable.

For that matter, I'm surprised that the people who do require French, or German, or Swedish, or other keyboards with an extra key, don't opt for arrangements which put that key in a more benign location. There were certainly other choices besides IBM's 101-key US arrangement from third-party suppliers.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #70 on:** Tue, 18 August 2009, 23:08:50 »

Quote from: quadibloc;110496

Since very few English-speaking computer users in Canada have a requirement for being able to type French on a computer keyboard (indeed, they're about as likely to be able to understand French as an American is to understand Spanish), I'm surprised this doesn't just render those laptops unsalable.

These laptops will not become unsalable if all manufacturers offer bilingual keyboards, which most of them do (Quebec is a really big market). But, the real reason why they are now offering bilingual keyboards is because English and French are the official languages of Canada. All civil servant must know how to speak both languages and they do. All immigration/custom agents are really bilingual. The requirement of the Federal government when issuing tender for computers is that all computers come with bilingual keyboards. From the manufaturers point of view, it makes sense to offer only one keyboard layout which will cater to both languages.

redpill · « **Reply #71 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 10:53:06 »

I find using the number row to be more prone to error when entering a large column of numbers, especially when using a split keyboard and touch typing. Usually if you are entering a large amount of numbers you're touch typing and not looking at the keyboard, so accuracy in touch typing large amounts of numbers is critical. In my experience the orientation of the number pad makes keying in large blocks of numbers a more accurate endeavor, the enter key is closer on the number pad than if you are using the number row with your right hand, and having the + - / * available without using shift is a bonus also.

And the vertical Enter key is fun to smack.

RiGS · « **Reply #72 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 10:59:32 »

Congrats on necroing this 2-year-old thread!

Henry Allen Venture · « **Reply #73 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 11:05:10 »

I spend a lot of time running spreadsheets in Excel for work, and not having a numpad on my work laptop drives me absolutely insane.
Luckily I use my desktop more often than not and my Majestouch has a delicious numpad. I really can't stress how much easier it is. I would NEVER buy a tenkeyless board.

godofdeath · « **Reply #74 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 12:19:11 »

thread necro
Oooooohhhhhhh

redpill · « **Reply #75 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 12:55:41 »

Quote from: RiGS;344956

Congrats on necroing this 2-year-old thread!

Woops, well I don't remember how I stumbled across it. But anyway. Thanks

Ascaii · « **Reply #76 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 16:09:27 »

Quote from: redpill;344998

Woops, well I don't remember how I stumbled across it. But anyway. Thanks

TAKE THE BLUE PILL!

how did we get here again?

NeoDiNardo · « **Reply #77 on:** Wed, 11 May 2011, 19:23:33 »

A function key on the filco ten keyless to make some letter keys a keypad would work

nhwhaup · « **Reply #78 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 03:48:02 »

Someone earlier in this post mentioned a manufacturing company and I do HR for one. All the stock keyboards have the number pads as most people do use them. Silly me was typing away on a laptop for years and didn't even think about a separate monitor and keyboard until just recently. Absolutely love working with dual screens - just so much more efficient. Then came the search for a perfect keyboard and I've been through a number of them. My favorites full sized Filco with red switches and my soon to arrive tenkeyless Realforce with separate number pad. I truly do find the off center of a full sized keyboard and having the mouse further away annoying. But for times when I'm working on a spreadsheet I definitely want the number pad. This is a crazy expense forking out the dough for keeping these separate but I think it will be worth it.

Culinia · « **Reply #79 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 04:14:00 »

Quote from: NeoDiNardo;345136

A function key on the filco ten keyless to make some letter keys a keypad would work

Yes I would hazard to say that why not replace scroll lock with such key?

alaricljs · « **Reply #80 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 07:59:19 »

Interestingly scroll lock does something in the place people are most likely to use a numpad: Excel. Wish OpenOffice did it too... but anyhow, you press the scroll lock and the arrow keys move the spreadsheet instead of changing which cell is selected. It can be very handy if you know it's there.

Zet · « **Reply #81 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 09:02:26 »

Personally I like better how a tenkeyless keyboard looks like, but I totally support that keypad is needed when you are going to enter mass numbers and stuff.
I don't support helping the company's get rich by only selling tenkeyless and forcing others to get keypads, but if you want tenkeyless just get them for yourself

The Solutor · « **Reply #82 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 10:15:33 »

I found the tenkeyless the worst layout available.

An pointless variant between the true compact boards like the deck 82 and the way more useful "Filco mini" style.

The Solutor · « **Reply #83 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 10:44:57 »

Quote from: ripster;345358

But then I have a CPA.

Damn TLAs !!! What's a CPA ?

The Solutor · « **Reply #84 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 11:07:29 »

Quote from: ripster;345367

Has anyone pointed out you tend to be a bit detail oriented?

Said by the inventor of the ripometer looks like a compliment....

Tallon · « **Reply #85 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 22:17:33 »

Hmm - I use number pads, and they are awesome. Once I started reading this site - I started to notice how much I use the arrow keys and the number pad. Never realized it before, but I'm not sure I could ever get by with a small keyboard!

And - I am SO GLAD I ran into this site. I love typing on this Das silent. So much better than my crap keyboard at work.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #86 on:** Thu, 12 May 2011, 22:28:20 »

Quote from: RiGS;344956

Congrats on necroing this 2-year-old thread!

Looks like this thread has plenty of interest 2 years later. I don't think dates on these threads mean much. I don't thing twice about it myself anymore. If the topic is interesting to someone, they should post. This site continues to grow with content and users, so it's gonna happen, better get used to it

Touch_It · « **Reply #87 on:** Fri, 13 May 2011, 01:48:32 »

i love having the 10key. i may not use it every day but i probably use it once every 2-3 days and love. it. now work on the other hand its a god send. esp for typing out numerous 12 number service tickets daily.

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Author Topic: why do they make keyboards with keypads anymore? (Read 10722 times)