Most valuable retro keyboards?

[jacobolus]

Maybe I should just start selling all my Clacks and Bros for inflated prices.

It seems like “Clacks and Bros” are distributed mostly via lottery mechanism, with demand outstripping supply and market prices much higher than the lottery price. My vague understanding is that people who enter that lottery implicitly (or explicitly?) sign up for some kind of agreement to never resell them for more than they paid? I’m not sure what the story is, I don’t really follow the subject, and I don’t have any dog in that fight.

If someone agrees to a contract to never resell the keycaps for profit as one condition to entering the lottery, then you can feel free to enforce that via publicly shaming/shunning people who renege on the contract. That seems reasonable enough. I suspect Clack and Bro & al. are probably leaving a lot of money on the table by selling their wares at below market price via lottery, but that’s their business, not mine.

If you wanted to resell your keycaps for profit it wouldn’t bother me personally at all, since I don’t have anything to do with novelty keycaps; I think they’re a cute idea, and it’s fine that people like them, but they don’t interest me.

Maybe I should sell my AT&T 305B for $150 because it's rare.

If someone will pay you $150 for it, that sounds totally reasonable to me. I’m not sure if anyone’s going to pay $150 for it, but I could certainly imagine it happening, I wouldn’t call it “unfair”, and I don’t think it would have any negative effect whatsoever on the community. Personally I wouldn’t spend more than about $20 for the keycaps because they’re mildly interesting, but I could imagine someone else really wanting that board.

[fohat.digs]

So have we determined that the 4704 77-key is, in fact, the "Most valuable retro keyboard"
as is the question put on the table for this thread?

Do we have any nominees for any keyboard more valuable?

[jdcarpe]

So have we determined that the 4704 77-key is, in fact, the "Most valuable retro keyboard"
as is the question put on the table for this thread?

Do we have any nominees for any keyboard more valuable?

What I don't understand is why that one is considered more valuable than the 62-key 4704. They are probably equally rare. Is it just because Tinlong found a stash of them and passed them on to the community at a low cost?

[jacobolus]

So have we determined that the 4704 77-key is, in fact, the "Most valuable retro keyboard"

Not a chance.

Some other contenders:
FingerWorks Touchstream (maybe not “retro” though)
DataHand
various Lisp Machine keyboards from Symbolics
certain beam spring boards (does the IBM 5100 count as a keyboard?)
certain hall effect boards
various research prototypes (like original Xerox PARC keyboards, etc.)
keyboards with some personal story (Jef Raskin’s Apple II modded to have “leap” keys, or some famous novelist’s keyboard)
lots of stuff sitting in museums somewhere from famous old computers
various one-of-a-kind stuff that HaaTa has the only known copy of (I just asked him and he said another collector offered him $800 for his Alps Reed Switch keyboard after he won the auction; I assume it might fetch even more in a well marketed auction; he also mentioned this Siemens board, this Univac, and the Burroughs Opto-Electric)
anything with Mandolin crystals

[1391406]

I'll go with the DataHand Pro II with 8 bids at $2,500.

[1391406]

So have we determined that the 4704 77-key is, in fact, the "Most valuable retro keyboard"
as is the question put on the table for this thread?

Do we have any nominees for any keyboard more valuable?

What I don't understand is why that one is considered more valuable than the 62-key 4704.

Isn't it obvious? the 77-key has 15 more keys!

[Doyniish]

I'll go with the DataHand Pro II with 8 bids at $2,500.

Insane!

[bueller]

Maybe your assessment wasn't directed specifically at me. I'm not sure.

Huh? No, I�m annoyed at JD and nubbinator (and a few other folks) who have been downright nasty and vicious in this and a couple other threads, in defense of an IMO ridiculous and totally naive concept of �fairness�.

Just went full retard. Jd is one of the most diplomatic people on here, well done!

I really fail to see how you fail to grasp this concept. We treat this place like a community. We don't want people here just trying to make money off community members. What part of that is so difficult to understand? You can disagree with it all you like, doesn't mean we're wrong to expect more from this place.

[neverused]

Your argument basically boils down to: As a buyer, you want a low price, so you hope that all sellers are totally clueless about the value of what they have and can’t get information about market-clearing prices, and you want them to sell everything at a discount.

That is nonsense. Sensationalism should not drive a price spike that becomes the new norm, that is what should be counteracted.

Fact of the matter is that the community cannot realistically stop resellers from inflating prices. However, they do not have to support that behavior monetarily or by advising them/providing knowledge. There is only so much a group like this can do, but anyone wanting to benefit personally by profiteering from the community in any form is not going to be well received.

[jacobolus]

That is nonsense. Sensationalism should not drive a price spike that becomes the new norm, that is what should be counteracted.

There can’t be a “new norm” for 77-key 4704 boards, since there was never a “norm” to begin with. Until a few months ago, there were precisely zero with known whereabouts. Now there are 3 that we know about, and only one of them is for sale at any price. (I’m sure there are a bunch more in some bank back office somewhere, but no one knows how to locate or liberate them.)

In such a tiny market, it’s really hard to say whether a price is “inflated” or not. The way for a patient seller to find out the market price is to put something up for sale at a high price, wait a while, lower the price a bit, wait a while, &c. until the item sells. This is what any reasonable seller would do in any market.

The part I object to is people taking sellers’ pricing decisions, undertaken entirely outside the context of geekhack, which decisions I find to be entirely reasonable, rational, and perfectly ethical by our common societal standards, and then flaming them and insulting them with saucy language.

Saying “wow, I think that price is unreasonably high, I bet it never sells for that amount, buyers should beware” would be fine. Saying (paraphrased) “wow that *******, what a ****ing ridiculous price, he’s just trying to defraud everyone, take advantage of poor defenseless victims, and destroy our community” is something totally different.

However, they do not have to support that behavior monetarily or by advising them/providing knowledge.

Absolutely, I agree. I think the OP of this thread was tasteless and got some well-deserved mockery. (And judging from his edited post he has figured that out, and will hopefully stick around as a productive community member; it seemed like an honest mistake.)

Also, I definitely don’t think anyone is obligated to buy anything. Anyone who thinks something is overpriced is more than welcome to not buy it, or to publicly proclaim what they think a fair price should be, etc.

[1391406]

Your argument basically boils down to: As a buyer, you want a low price, so you hope that all sellers are totally clueless about the value of what they have and can�t get information about market-clearing prices, and you want them to sell everything at a discount.

That is nonsense. Sensationalism should not drive a price spike that becomes the new norm, that is what should be counteracted.

Fact of the matter is that the community cannot realistically stop resellers from inflating prices. However, they do not have to support that behavior monetarily or by advising them/providing knowledge. There is only so much a group like this can do, but anyone wanting to benefit personally by profiteering from the community in any form is not going to be well received.

If someone were selling a one of a kind or truly rare keyboard for an exorbitant price that I really, really wanted and it was within my means to acquire it, I'd probably buy it. With extremely rare items, how often does the chance come along? And how does that hurt the community?

[Krogenar]

that ONE keyboard isn't doing the community any good as it is, because the asking price is ****ING RIDICULOUS. Might as well be destroyed for all the use it's going to get.

While I can't afford it, I don't really see the point in destroying a perfectly good keyboard. Don't you think whoever buys it will likely use it? I'd tend to think an enthusiast is probably the only one who will buy it at that price anyway.

So what you're saying, 1391406, is that if the price is too high for you, that's okay with you -- if someone wants it badly enough at that price, that's their business? See, now that sounds reasonable to me. Also, prices can and do change -- seeing a keyboard lost to the hobby forever can't be undone.

Maybe your assessment wasn't directed specifically at me. I'm not sure.

Huh? No, I�m annoyed at JD and nubbinator (and a few other folks) who have been downright nasty and vicious in this and a couple other threads, in defense of an IMO ridiculous and totally naive concept of �fairness�.

Again, I agree. This attitude is bad for the hobby, and bad for Geekhack.

Why is raising the value of an item bad for the community?

It should be considered 'good' since the value of the existing collections has gone up -- assuming the pricing isn't due to ignorance of the item's actual worth -- an ignorance that some here at Geekhack believe serves the "community".

Or maybe I just want fair prices for everyone, not only for myself. I can't collect ALL the keyboards. And by the way, that ONE keyboard isn't doing the community any good as it is, because the asking price is ****ING RIDICULOUS. Might as well be destroyed for all the use it's going to get.

I respect your intent, and I believe it's genuine -- your desire to help the "community". But I think your statement displays an extreme attitude that does not help the hobby, or Geekhack, or "the community." And your refusal to acknowledge that your statement is wildly irrational just reinforces that perception to others. My point is that even someone with purely evil motives still serves the hobby when they save a keyboard from the scrap pile. And they cannot get a price beyond what someone is willing to pay.

You have no point, other than to be argumentative.

You have no ego, to hold fast to your statement.

[bueller]

that ONE keyboard isn't doing the community any good as it is, because the asking price is ****ING RIDICULOUS. Might as well be destroyed for all the use it's going to get.

While I can't afford it, I don't really see the point in destroying a perfectly good keyboard. Don't you think whoever buys it will likely use it? I'd tend to think an enthusiast is probably the only one who will buy it at that price anyway.

So what you're saying, 1391406, is that if the price is too high for you, that's okay with you -- if someone wants it badly enough at that price, that's their business? See, now that sounds reasonable to me. Also, prices can and do change -- seeing a keyboard lost to the hobby forever can't be undone.

Maybe your assessment wasn't directed specifically at me. I'm not sure.

Huh? No, I�m annoyed at JD and nubbinator (and a few other folks) who have been downright nasty and vicious in this and a couple other threads, in defense of an IMO ridiculous and totally naive concept of �fairness�.

Again, I agree. This attitude is bad for the hobby, and bad for Geekhack.

Why is raising the value of an item bad for the community?

It should be considered 'good' since the value of the existing collections has gone up -- assuming the pricing isn't due to ignorance of the item's actual worth -- an ignorance that some here at Geekhack believe serves the "community".

Or maybe I just want fair prices for everyone, not only for myself. I can't collect ALL the keyboards. And by the way, that ONE keyboard isn't doing the community any good as it is, because the asking price is ****ING RIDICULOUS. Might as well be destroyed for all the use it's going to get.

I respect your intent, and I believe it's genuine -- your desire to help the "community". But I think your statement displays an extreme attitude that does not help the hobby, or Geekhack, or "the community." And your refusal to acknowledge that your statement is wildly irrational just reinforces that perception to others. My point is that even someone with purely evil motives still serves the hobby when they save a keyboard from the scrap pile. And they cannot get a price beyond what someone is willing to pay.

You have no point, other than to be argumentative.

You have no ego, to hold fast to your statement.

We get it. You and jd aren't going to agree on this, how about you let it go? "The community" is over it.

[wejn]

I'll go with the DataHand Pro II with 8 bids at $2,500.

Insane!

Btw, I just bought DH personal w/ chair mount for $1000 on ebay. I'm happy that I'll have a backup DH now (since dodohand is still being worked on).

It might be hard to believe... but I'm quite happy to pay $1000 for it. I tried other keyboards (last time it was kinesis advantage) and none comes close to the comfort of DH. YMMV, of course, but to me DH is priceless "retro" keyboard and I'm not surprised someone bid $2500 for it...

[E TwentyNine]

Btw, I just bought DH personal w/ chair mount for $1000 on ebay. I'm happy that I'll have a backup DH now (since dodohand is still being worked on).

It might be hard to believe... but I'm quite happy to pay $1000 for it. I tried other keyboards (last time it was kinesis advantage) and none comes close to the comfort of DH. YMMV, of course, but to me DH is priceless "retro" keyboard and I'm not surprised someone bid $2500 for it...

While that is damn awesome, how do you handle mouse usage?

[wejn]

While that is damn awesome, how do you handle mouse usage?

Hmm, I'm mostly mouse-free. I've configured my window manager (fluxbox at the time) to be nearly completely operational with just keyboard shortcuts.

Btw, the mouse mode on DH is cumbersome but one can get used to it and it certainly works for basic navigation and clicking...

I personally don't like it very much and when it comes to the rare occasion when I need to edit a bitmap (etc) I usually revert to a generic mouse.

[trenzafeeds]

I don't think they quite get into the territory of really weird looking older keyboards in terms of value, but some of the og cherry boards with dyesubs in the weirder layouts can get pretty damn valuable. Just ask photekq

[mike52787]

All these resellers make it impossible for me to get a Model M cheap. I hate them.

How about me? I buy cheap model m's, Bolt mod them, then sell them for profit. If im scummy for that, just let me know )

[XMIT]

So have we determined that the 4704 77-key is, in fact, the "Most valuable retro keyboard"
as is the question put on the table for this thread?

Do we have any nominees for any keyboard more valuable?

An original Space Cadet keyboard would command way more than an F77.