M13s—so WHAT is the deal?

[ander]

So, somebody please tell me—what is the deal with IBM Model M13s?

Yes, they're black. And yes, they have a trackpoint (which may or may not work).

But they're also the only buckling-spring KBs with flimsy pad-printed legends. And they're as fourth-generation as any Model Mx could be—among the last, lightest, most cheaply made under IBM's banner. Many (most?) weren't even built by Lexmark, but by Maxi Switch. In Mexico.

Yet they're considered 2 to 3 times as valuable as regular Model M's? (And while I realize ClickyKeyboards' prices are in a class of their own—$250?)

We all know how valuable gray Industrial Model M's are. And sure, there's a certain amount of hysteria around them. But at least they're as solidly made as other Model M's.

Is it possible that people have seen M13s and thought, "Whoa, M13s are dark, like Industrials—so they must be really valuable, too!" ?

I mean, okay, they're dark. They're black, in fact, which is much darker than, you know, beige. Any court in the land would agree: When it comes to darkness vs. lightness, M13s are the clear winner. They're unquestionably darker than all other Model M-whatevers (except for a few rumored actual black Model M's no one ever seems to talk about, one of which I understand was buried with Jimmy Hoffa).

But 2–3 times as valuable? For what are clearly lesser KBs? I must be missing something.

[SpAmRaY]

So at the end of the day it all comes down to race.

[Novus]

So at the end of the day it all comes down to race.

As a g shark whiz bro i don't see race

[engicoder]

Yes, they're black. And yes, they have a trackpoint (which may or may not work).

They also come in beige.

[hwood34]

Do they really go for 2-3 times as much as a regular M? I mean, they seen to go for marginally more, but not all that much.

[spiceBar]

I mean, okay, they're dark. They're black, in fact, which is much darker than, you know, beige. Any court in the land would agree

You realize half of the people who have looked at that now famous and obviously dark blue dress thought it was white?

Everything is possible, man.

[Firebolt1914]

There was an eBay seller that sold over 20 M13s for 100 dollars and you could even send an offer for 75 dollars.

[Touch_It]

There was an eBay seller that sold over 20 M13s for 100 dollars and you could even send an offer for 75 dollars.

Also thought that he took some $50 offers way back but i could be wrong.

At any rate scarcity and perceived value will inflate the price.  Also something is worth what someone will pay. 

[Jotokun]

I'm guessing you've never used a trackpoint, or you don't remember how great they are. As far as I'm aware, there are only two mechanicals with a trackpoint: the M13 and the Tex Yoda (The Endurapro doesn't count, it's more of a joystick). 

If you don't like 60% or Cherry switches and you want a trackpoint, the M13 is the only real option. I do agree they seem a bit expensive considering they're first gen trackpoints and based on a later generation M, but it's not unexpected that they would have a higher price.

[jwaz]

Yes, they're black. And yes, they have a trackpoint (which may or may not work).

They also come in beige.

and industrial gray

There was an eBay seller that sold over 20 M13s for 100 dollars and you could even send an offer for 75 dollars.

the black ones? IIRC they were as low as $50 plus shipping.

[E TwentyNine]

But they're also the only buckling-spring KBs with flimsy pad-printed legends.

They're not.  Unicomp made a black M with black keys and pad printed legends a while back.

Also note some people hate how numpads move the mouse that much further out and don't want to left-mouse it, the trackpoint solves this problem quite nicely.

[Snowdog993]

You can still find M13's around $100 or so if you are patient.  They are nice keyboards, and I haven't had any trouble with the legends on it.  The Unicomp model, on the other hand, did have problems with the legends, and there is still a little confusion about the M13 legends because of that.  They are different critters.
The reason you see them for that much on ebay and otherwise is because the price-point is a bit higher than anyone is willing to pay.  Just keep your eyes peeled.  You'll find an M13 for a reasonable price.

[JaccoW]

I bought one of the cheap Maxi Switch model M13's. It was a nice board and yes the main reason people buy them is them being black and the trackpoint through PS/2. It worked so well that I wouldn't mind paying $50 more on a board to have it.
The main reason I sold it was because I can't work with full size anymore without getting pain in my wrist.

[TacticalCoder]

To me the appeal it's the same as with the Ambra M: it's to take the keys and put them on an industrial M.  Crappy picture but I think these boards are very good looking.  Now don't ask me why I love industrial Ms so much: I don't know, I just really love them.  Industrial M with white-on-black keys reminds me of the Commodore 64 in a way...

I don't care much for the keys that wear out fast: I'm hooking my industrial M + white-on-black black M13 keys to a secondary computer on which I rarely ever type (I typically just SSH in it from my main computer).  So I still use it, but so rarely that keys aren't going to fade in my lifetime

Here's a crappy picture of two of my industrials:



And here's a nice pic posted by someone else here on GH:

[ander]

Do they really go for 2-3 times as much as a regular M? I mean, they seen to go for marginally more, but not all that much.

I just checked eBay again, and as you can see, they’re substantially more.

And again, I don’t know if this means anything in real-world terms, but:

ClickyKeyboards currently has (buckling-spring) Model M’s from $80–165. (Can’t say I really get why a 1391401 from 1991 is $40 more than a 1393464 from 1989, but there it is.) There are also two 1998 M13s at $250 and $240 (the 2nd being "on sale" as it lacks feet). They’re described thus:

“Very rare IBM model M keyboard. Of the tens of thousands of buckling-spring keyboards that IBM produced from 1985 - 1999, this is the only series (model M13) that comes in IBM stealth black color. Similar to traditional 1391401 keyboard, but added trackpoint pointing device.”

So it looks like Brandon definitely puts the emphasis on the colour.  :?)

I'm guessing you've never used a trackpoint, or you don't remember how great they are. As far as I'm aware, there are only two mechanicals with a trackpoint: the M13 and the Tex Yoda...

Sure I’ve used trackpoints. Only on laptops, though—where they made sense, IMHO, the idea being that space was limited. With full-size KBs you can have a—um, what do they call those things again? You know, they fit your hand, they give you high-resolution pointer control, they have scroll wheels, programmable buttons...?

Okay, if it’s really the trackpoint, that'd make sense. But from everything I’ve observed, the colour is what gets most people excited—and the trackpoint (which I've seen respectfully referred to here as "the clitoris") is generally considered a quaint ephemerality, like built-in calculators.

You can still find M13's around $100 or so if you are patient...

Yes, and you can still find M’s for around $40 if you’re patient. It’s relative, is what I'm saying.

The reason you see them for that much on ebay and otherwise is because the price-point is a bit higher than anyone is willing to pay. Just keep your eyes peeled. You'll find an M13 for a reasonable price.

Thanks, but I don’t really want one, as I have a mouse (that's it!) and I prefer legends that don’t rub off. Maybe it’s just me.

To me the appeal it's the same as with the Ambra M: it's to take the keys and put them on an industrial M... I don't care much for the keys that wear out fast: I'm hooking my industrial M + white-on-black black M13 keys to a secondary computer on which I rarely ever type (I typically just SSH in it from my main computer).  So I still use it, but so rarely that keys aren't going to fade in my lifetime.

Wow, that’s an excellent, specialized example of why M13s would be desirable, one I never would’ve thought of! That said, it seems a bit sad, putting pad-printed keys on a KB that was positioned for "industrial" use. As long as you don’t touch it, though, you should be fine.

[ander]

Another reason I thought of all this was that someone had just lambasted me for pointing out a Model M p/n 42H1292 for sale—and M13s are even newer than that.

[Snowdog993]

Another reason I thought of all this was that someone had just lambasted me for pointing out a Model M p/n 42H1292 for sale—and M13s are even newer than that.

The legends on the M13 don't "rub" off like the Unicomp models.  You can use the M13 for years and then they might wear a bit.  It depends on the use, of course.

I'm sorry Ander.  I took what you said the wrong way.  Maybe it's because I have other issues in my life that are making me very edgy.  I took it out on you without thinking you might have been sincere.

[Snowdog993]

Okay here is the deal.  This Auction ENDS in 30 minutes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Black-Model-M-Clicky-Mechanical-Keyboard-M13-Nice-Refurb-/111625916490?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fd6c504a

Good Luck to everyone!  The trackpoint is not functional.

Edit: And the listing expired unsold.  Starting bid was $75.00.  Goes to show, don't ya know?

[Ludovician]

Oh, I missed it again? Last time he listed that I tried to place a bid for $75 with 10 seconds left in a futile attempt to snipe something that nobody apparently wanted anyway. It took too long for the bidding popup to load and I didn't get to bid in time. It's probably for the best. Waste of money.

[Snowdog993]

Oh, I missed it again? Last time he listed that I tried to place a bid for $75 with 10 seconds left in a futile attempt to snipe something that nobody apparently wanted anyway. It took too long for the bidding popup to load and I didn't get to bid in time. It's probably for the best. Waste of money.

Next time, bid at least a couple minutes early.  That gives you time to bid on the item, and if someone else bids higher, you can let it go.

[ander]

Thanks for letting me bat this around with you, guys. It'd puzzled me for some time, and as we're (a.) so big into detail here (it'd seem odd not to be, wouldn't it?) and (b.) we like to type so much, it also seemed like a chance to have a bit of fun with it.

BTW, despite your persuasive arguments, I'm still in no rush to find an M13.  :?)

[Snowdog993]

That was a post made on March 22.  I honestly tried to get someone to get that keyboard or it would slip away.  And it did.

[HalfSharkAlligator]

Looks like it got reposted a few days later, and sold quickly with a Buy It Now of $90 (plus $40 shipping).  Hope someone here got it! 

[eldorange]

RARE....

[hwood34]

RARE, RARE...why are there too many rares for sale...Could these sellers think of other words...

RARE CLICKY VINTAGE CHERRY MX NIB CLICK CLACK

[ander]

RARE CLICKY VINTAGE CHERRY MX NIB CLICK CLACK

BTW, there's another thing I don't get: the $200 robot-face keycaps. I mean, you can buy a pretty nice KB for that kind of dough. It's probably just because I'm over 30 and haven't seen all the Transformers movies.

[fohat.digs]

I tried to place a bid for $75 with 10 seconds left
 
It took too long for the bidding popup to load

Are you nuts?

This is precisely why sniping is the only way to play in ebay auctions!

[rowdy]

I tried to place a bid for $75 with 10 seconds left
 
It took too long for the bidding popup to load

Are you nuts?

This is precisely why sniping is the only way to play in ebay auctions!

Unfortunately the more people who know about sniping, the less chance you have to win.

It was great when not many people knew about it - you'd almost be guaranteed to win.  Not so much these days though.

[Snowdog993]

There is another member selling his M13 in member auction links.  Very reasonable too.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70669.0
You could get it and maybe some other keyboards.
Good Luck!

[ander]

Unfortunately the more people who know about sniping, the less chance you have to win.
It was great when not many people knew about it - you'd almost be guaranteed to win.  Not so much these days though.

Does it really matter though? Personally, I think it's just psychology, how we relate to the concepts of money and value.

Whether anyone snipes or not, the highest bid always wins. And the highest bid is the most that anybody who's bidding is willing to pay—whether they bid 2 seconds before the close, or 2 days.

If you really want something, you need to decide the absolute most that it's worth to you. If you snipe that amount, then you lose, you can't say to yourself, "Dang! If I'd just bid 50¢ more..." If you were willing to bid 50¢ more, you should've done that.

Sniping can be a disadvantage, too. If an item's at $40, and it was raised to that amount by someone who entered a maximum of $50, sniping any less than $50 is going to lose you that item—and you won't have a chance to bid more, because the auction is over.

One way or another, it always comes back to "What is this item worth to me?" If you can be totally honest about that, you'll always have your best chance to win—and you should have no regrets if you don't.

[Venatorious]

I thought about getting one just for the white lettered keys for my model F.  But then I figured out it was pad printed...

[fohat.digs]

Unfortunately the more people who know about sniping, the less chance you have to win.

I have gotten a lot of flak for "giving away my secrets" in my infamous thread

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51443.0

but I figure that there are a lot of people here who are hurting themselves unnecessarily.

[chyros]

To me the appeal it's the same as with the Ambra M: it's to take the keys and put them on an industrial M.  Crappy picture but I think these boards are very good looking.  Now don't ask me why I love industrial Ms so much: I don't know, I just really love them.  Industrial M with white-on-black keys reminds me of the Commodore 64 in a way...

I don't care much for the keys that wear out fast: I'm hooking my industrial M + white-on-black black M13 keys to a secondary computer on which I rarely ever type (I typically just SSH in it from my main computer).  So I still use it, but so rarely that keys aren't going to fade in my lifetime

Here's a crappy picture of two of my industrials:

(Attachment Link)

And here's a nice pic posted by someone else here on GH:

(Attachment Link)

Holy **** on a stick, they look awesome! Definitely agree Industrials are much sexier than black ones.

[Snowdog993]

Holy **** on a stick, they look awesome! Definitely agree Industrials are much sexier than black ones.

There was a Trackpoint II industrial that was recently found!  Those are exceedingly rare!  Do remember that the M13 is a Trackpoint II and not just a regular Model M.  They are pretty cool keyboards.