Sorry, booper! (now vegetarian, vegan, and meat-lover discussion)

[Booper]

Not all people feel compassion, towards animals this can be especially true.
I have read stories of people talking about how you can live totally healthy lives without needing to eat meat and that we as a species should be above the slaughter of animals for food as we can get nutrients and minerals from other sources, which makes sense and is fair enough.
I'd love to live in a world where all we have to eat are pills and bars that contain all the nutrients we need and are synthetically made, but I think that time is a long way off and the reason is the same reason I worry about veganism and all it's variants.
I'm not aware the impact of long term generational vegatarianism or veganism has been tracked/studied etc etc... what are the long term affects of generations not eating meat on the human body and the effect on there children and how they develop?

The human body evolved this way because of it's diet and I'm more than happy to have our diets change so we can continue to become more advanced and more developed, but I personally am worried of the effects of such a diet in the long term and think that before that research can be done, for the majority of people aiming for sustainable, humane farming of animals is the way to go.



>my mum kept chickens, they are stupid creatures but have surprisingly strong personalities (as I imagine most do).

There are many cultures in Asia that have largely vegetarian lifestyles and there is information that suggests vegetarians live longer, that meat contributes to cancer, higher cholesterol, too much protein, etc. In the current system of factory farms and the American "bang for your buck" mentality, animals are pumped full of hormones and fed an unnatural diet so they grow quickly and on the cheap. I would wager that the health effects from eating that meat will be far more devastating in time than a vegetarian diet.

You aren't in America though and things are probably different there... but American meat is exported all over so we get to feed the rest of the world our crappy corn meat too. Even if you can avoid it, there are many people who can't.

Meat for every meal is a fairly new idea so humans didn't evolve to rely on it heavily or anything. The meat craze is especially bad in America where meat has somehow become symbolic with 'muricah!
This is a result of subsidies which allow all Americans to purchase meat cheaply and then media pushing it onto people (think "where's the beef!?"). The cost of the meat today is not equal to it's value. The resources, land, and labor that go into getting meat to the super market should not equate to $1 per pound. If we had to appreciate it more just to get it, then we wouldn't have as big of a problem. It drives me nuts to see whole rotisserie chickens sitting around at the store going to waste. 

But then, this is also largely a problem with our culture wanting everything and wanting it for cheap.. It's a pretty selfish outlook and makes people neglect to consider the work that goes into producing anything. People don't even cook their own meals anymore compared to a few decades ago when eating out was a luxury.

Families used to have a couple chickens and a dairy cow or something and they would treat those animals with respect in exchange for eggs/milk/food. Even in this thread there have been many examples of "my parents/grandparents had chickens/cows/etc." but no one has these animals themselves anymore. There has been a huge shift in the way people get their meat these days. People watch documentaries and stuff and then say "poor animals" but they still aren't there smelling the chicken houses, seeing the waste and conditions first hand, or whatever so they still say "ah well! dig in!" when they get bacon in front of them.

I don't disagree at all with the idea of small scale, humane farming IF it's actually humane. I don't think humans need to or should eat meat, but I don't expect everyone to share my view.

I also think you're trading one evil for another by being vegetarian

Kinda curious about the logic there? What evil am I trading for?

If you're approaching vegetarianism from an ethical standpoint, in my opinion, you're trading animal welfare and responsible farming vs social issues such as migrant labor.

Mmm, I disagree entirely. I don't see how you are suggesting that by supporting animal rights, I am somehow neglecting human rights. Not that I really feel like I need to defend myself on that... but I will - I support migrant labor/social issues as much as I know how to and I try to be aware of food I purchase in relation to those issues as well as animal rights. I support immigration reform, I don't buy tomatoes from Florida due to the treatment of tomato farm laborers, I vote for issues that favor equality,  I try to buy things from ethical/american companies rather than things outsourced to cheap labor (not migrant specific, but relates in the grand scheme) ...

I highly doubt many people check to make sure the meat they are buying is from a farm that treats their workers and animals well and I don't know how you can reliably obtain that information. Most people see an "organic" sticker and assume the farm is like an animal and worker heaven, but that is rarely the case because of loose laws/regulations.  The best way to tackle social issues is to vote locally and get involved in the politics that effect those issues... which I try to do as well as being vegetarian. I support having laws and a system in place so that it's not an individuals job to be the moral police, but instead all people and animals are just treated fairly.

More

I have been a vegetarian for most of my life. I went vegetarian for moral reasons when I was 14. Later, I just think of meat to be disgusting and that is the main reason why I can never go back. When I think of meat, I think of disease: mad cow, salmonella, nigella, parasites, excess hormones.

I do eat eggs and dairy though, and I think that I will never give that up. You can't have pizza without cheese and you can't make a sponge-cake without eggs. (I have yet to try "No-Egg" powder...)
I buy organic free-range eggs and dairy products exclusively.

There is a myth that vegetarians need to be extra careful to get enough protein - that is not a problem because there is a lot of protein in a lot of foodstuffs. We don't need to eat beans at every meal!
No, our stone-age ancestors were never completely vegetarian, but they certainly did not eat as much meat as  modern Western man does.
It is a proven fact that people in the Western world eat too much meat overall and that high meat consumption is responsible for many diseases. Most people who are meat-eaters wouldn't live better lives if they cut down on it, and on especially red meat and processed meat. I read the other day that average meat consumption per person in the Western world has risen by one third since 1980 .. and it isn't as if people didn't eat enough meat back then.

Industrial meat production depends too much on antibiotics - meat farms being where you will find the most antibiotic-resistant bacteria. It has also been theorized that meat production was the source of bird flu, and most other forms of influenza.

Meat production also accounts for one quarter of all greenhouse gases... with beef being the worst meat.
BTW, most methane does not actually come out of the back of the cow, but from the front. That is because cows are ruminants - who regurgitate food to chew it some more. Mutton is also a bad meat for the climate because sheep are also ruminants, but there aren't as many sheep in the world as there are cows bred for slaughter.

+10,000,000

[baldgye]

I can see your issue with corn fed meat, but it's not even a thing here in anyway as importing American corn fed meat would not only be expensive but also pointless as American food is often considered to be of lower quality than European food, 'American Cheese' being a good example

And yeah I've heard of those cultures, even monks who ate tree bark and pines, but I'm not sure what those people contributed, I respect monks but they didn't exactly help mankind achieve much.
Though I would argue that eating meat is very natural though I agree the quantity would have been much much lower... Idk maybe I'm luckily but meat is usually the smallest part of a meal, I can't comment on American meat and food lol

[UTEster750]

My family has a farm in Australia with cows and sheep, meat eating comes with the territory 

[FrostyToast]

What if people had to go and kill their own animals for meat?
Just have them walk into the piss filled chicken farms and snap ones neck; then get filled with depression and regret as they eat a guilt sandwich.

Though I guess animal cruelty is an early sign of a murderer...
Also great! Now we can point out potential murderers in the world!

[HoffmanMyster]

There are many cultures in Asia that have largely vegetarian lifestyles and there is information that suggests vegetarians live longer, that meat contributes to cancer, higher cholesterol, too much protein, etc.

There are also many cultures in Asia that are largely lactose intolerant.  The diets that we require to be healthy/satisfied vary from person to person enough that I don't think your example holds much weight.  What if they've evolved that way?  What if they get some of their nutrients from vegetables that we don't have here?  I don't know the answer to those questions because I've never asked them until now, but my point is that I don't think it's quite that simple.  I'm not disagreeing with your message, just pointing out the possible logical leap.

[cmadrid]

You can buy meat locally too just like produce.  It does cost more, but it is also usually a lot better than your typical supermarket meat as well.

[Booper]

There are many cultures in Asia that have largely vegetarian lifestyles and there is information that suggests vegetarians live longer, that meat contributes to cancer, higher cholesterol, too much protein, etc.

There are also many cultures in Asia that are largely lactose intolerant.  The diets that we require to be healthy/satisfied vary from person to person enough that I don't think your example holds much weight.  What if they've evolved that way?  What if they get some of their nutrients from vegetables that we don't have here?  I don't know the answer to those questions because I've never asked them until now, but my point is that I don't think it's quite that simple.  I'm not disagreeing with your message, just pointing out the possible logical leap.

Ohh man, I'm wasting so much time on all this! ha.

So.. first, I think it's funny that I need to provide a stronger argument that a vegetarian lifestyle wont potentially cause strange evolutionary changes. What about potential evolutionary problem that may arise with people eating a sh*tload of meat?

I can link numerous studies about red meat in particular causing a significant decrease in life span and an increase in cancer risk and other mortal health problems, but I don't see anyone linking me evidence of a vegetarian diet being harmful or unhealthy. Why must I defend my eating habits against others who don't hold their own habits to the same standards by which they judge? If anything, I would assume that by nature, humans would evolve over time to adapt to whatever lifestyle they begin to adopt. I also think it's a strange argument that a lifestyle that is scientificly proven to be beneficial to your health and makes you live longer would cause harm to our species in the long term. I'd like to see evidence to back up those hypotheticals!

Anyway.. Sources! _{(and this is just health stuff... not even about animal rights.)}

- 1 bacon sandwhich = -1 hour off of your life
- regularly eating a small amount of unprocessed red meat (85g, around 3oz) is associated with a 13% increased risk of mortality, while eating a similar amount of processed red meat (a hot dog or two slices of bacon) is associated with a 20% increased risk.
--BBC news

- Vegetarian/flexitarian lifestyle show to decrease risk of mortality by all causes by 12% - “Vegetarian diets are association with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality. Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favourable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance.”
* in this study, all participants practice healthy lifestyles
--NHS.UK


-  Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses. In July 2009, the American Dietetic Association weighed in with a position paper, concluding that “appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases”
- Compared with meat eaters, vegetarians tend to consume less saturated fat and cholesterol and more vitamins C and E, dietary fiber, folic acid, potassium, magnesium, and phytochemicals (plant chemicals), such as carotenoids and flavonoids. As a result, they’re likely to have lower total and LDL (bad) cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and lower body mass index (BMI), all of which are associated with longevity and a reduced risk for many chronic diseases.
*this article does mention that long term results are difficult to determine because vegetarians/vegans tend to be healthier in general and not just in terms of diet.
--Harvard Health


As for cultures that are largely vegetarian having special longevity veggies, idk. Maybe that's the case? Or maybe humans are fine on a vegetarian diet? I don't see many people dying from vegetarianism but I do know the number one cause of death in America is heart disease which can be directly linked to eating a lot of meat. So according to the evidence, I would argue that science is currently leaning in my favor on this one in terms of projected long term health.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that although I do believe humans can live without meat, I don't think everyone should necessarily agree with me... I do think it's pretty dense though not to acknowledge that eating a lot of meat, wether it's ethically slaughtered or not, is bad for you.

[HoffmanMyster]

There are many cultures in Asia that have largely vegetarian lifestyles and there is information that suggests vegetarians live longer, that meat contributes to cancer, higher cholesterol, too much protein, etc.

There are also many cultures in Asia that are largely lactose intolerant.  The diets that we require to be healthy/satisfied vary from person to person enough that I don't think your example holds much weight.  What if they've evolved that way?  What if they get some of their nutrients from vegetables that we don't have here?  I don't know the answer to those questions because I've never asked them until now, but my point is that I don't think it's quite that simple.  I'm not disagreeing with your message, just pointing out the possible logical leap.

Ohh man, I'm wasting so much time on all this! ha.

So.. first, I think it's funny that I need to provide a stronger argument that a vegetarian lifestyle wont potentially cause strange evolutionary changes. What about potential evolutionary problem that may arise with people eating a sh*tload of meat?

I made a point to say I don't disagree with you, but was simply pointing out what could possibly be a logical fallacy.  :|  Basing ones own nutrition off the diet of others without doing any additional research just seems like a poor idea.  That's all I was saying.  I even specifically said that I had not done said research, so perhaps my argument in this case was moot, but as a general statement I still think it holds merit.



Why can't we just be friends and eat our different foods and be happy?

[Booper]

There are many cultures in Asia that have largely vegetarian lifestyles and there is information that suggests vegetarians live longer, that meat contributes to cancer, higher cholesterol, too much protein, etc.

There are also many cultures in Asia that are largely lactose intolerant.  The diets that we require to be healthy/satisfied vary from person to person enough that I don't think your example holds much weight.  What if they've evolved that way?  What if they get some of their nutrients from vegetables that we don't have here?  I don't know the answer to those questions because I've never asked them until now, but my point is that I don't think it's quite that simple.  I'm not disagreeing with your message, just pointing out the possible logical leap.

Ohh man, I'm wasting so much time on all this! ha.

So.. first, I think it's funny that I need to provide a stronger argument that a vegetarian lifestyle wont potentially cause strange evolutionary changes. What about potential evolutionary problem that may arise with people eating a sh*tload of meat?

I made a point to say I don't disagree with you, but was simply pointing out what could possibly be a logical fallacy.  :|  Basing ones own nutrition off the diet of others without doing any additional research just seems like a poor idea.  That's all I was saying.  I even specifically said that I had not done said research, so perhaps my argument in this case was moot, but as a general statement I still think it holds merit.



Why can't we just be friends and eat our different foods and be happy?

Hahaha, you made me bust out sources Hoff!!

I'm not mad or anything and didn't mean to appear to be defensive! I am a live and let live kind of person and I don't think many people who know me would say I'm preachy or talk about this kind of thing a lot.

It just so happens that Absyrd made this thread and it's something I know a lot about so I can be more than just a lurker!

I actually have enjoyed all the converdation that has come from this thread. I like Baldgye's POV especially and think it's important to hear logical arguments that counter my opinions!

<3 <3 <3 

[CPTBadAss]

Like I said before, I'm not trying to attack you. I wanted to make that one point. You've obviously thought about it booper and I think I've said what I wanted to on my end. I hope there's no hard feelings. As I said before too, do you. You don't have to defend yourself.

[Lanx]

Look meat eaters arguing vs veggie ppl is a stupid argument. You're lucky enough to be born in a way to even choose. I'm sure one of those bloated belly starving kids in 3rd world countries would eat whatever you put in front of them, ethics be damned. They got the bad luck of the draw.

You want to eat meat, go eat meat.

Idiots would say "go kill your own meat", do i look like i live in the country? do i look like i built hunting skills in my lifetime? no i traded having to learn all that by being born in the city. It evens out, b/c i pay someone money to do that for me.

Heck i have 3, gutted, de-feathered, chickens wrapped in plastic trays, by whole foods, for 6bucks each cuz it was on sale. 6 bucks for a processed whole chicken, while also whole foods has buy 2 tofu packages for 5 bucks.

Both probably offer some equalish amount of protein, but it's chicken all the way!, and i'm Asian, so i actually know how to cook tofu well.

Did these chickens i have, sitting  in my fridge live good lives? i really don't know, and i really don't care as long as they aren't being treated like the way 7 year olds treat ants w/ a magnifying glass.

If you want to eat plants all your life, go ahead, no one is going to stop you. What ppl will stop however is if you spout holier than you attitudes to ppl who do eat meat.

Again, that's stupid, you're both eating something, some poor skeleton kid drinking mud water would happily down a big mac, where some would scoff at it.

Also if anyone here supports PETA, we'll you're insufferable, or just didn't do your research. PETA is for crazy ppl.

[SpAmRaY]

What if people had to go and kill their own animals for meat?
Just have them walk into the piss filled chicken farms and snap ones neck; then get filled with depression and regret as they eat a guilt sandwich.

Though I guess animal cruelty is an early sign of a murderer...
Also great! Now we can point out potential murderers in the world!

You poor thing. I'll think of you next time I'm enjoying some fried chicken.

[demik]

Vegetarians are lame anyways

told you

[UTEster750]

Just let everyone enjoy their diets and all be happy 

[alexjd99]

More vegetarians/ vegans = shorter lines at In-N-Out.
I see no problem here.

[baldgye]

Cheers for the kind words Booper, even though I eat meat and most of the veggies I have physical contact with are insufferable simply because they make being a veggie there everything (like Apple fanboys) I still consider myself fairly open minded and am all for progress and helping make the lives of animals better and the world we live in a better place

What if people had to go and kill their own animals for meat?
Just have them walk into the piss filled chicken farms and snap ones neck; then get filled with depression and regret as they eat a guilt sandwich.

Though I guess animal cruelty is an early sign of a murderer...
Also great! Now we can point out potential murderers in the world!

You poor thing. I'll think of you next time I'm enjoying some fried chicken.

)

[absyrd]

I just hate how much meat gets wasted. Drives me nuts. I always try to buy the expiring **** at the supermarket.

For example, I saw that 3 tubs of chicken liver were expiring that day 2 days ago, so I bought it all and cooked it that night. It is so delicious and has some health benefits, but I also know it has a ton of poison in it considering it is an organ that filters out bad ****.

I am a nose-to-tail meat eater, so bring on your tongues, hearts, livers, etc!

[UTEster750]

I just hate how much meat gets wasted. Drives me nuts. I always try to buy the expiring **** at the supermarket.

For example, I saw that 3 tubs of chicken liver were expiring that day 2 days ago, so I bought it all and cooked it that night. It is so delicious and has some health benefits, but I also know it has a ton of poison in it considering it is an organ that filters out bad ****.

I am a nose-to-tail meat eater, so bring on your tongues, hearts, livers, etc!

My dad will eat that sort of stuff (his grandfather was a slaughterman and butcher who apperently made the best sausages dad ever tasted), but not me I just stick to the run of the mill meats, but I like trying 'different' animals. Had kangaroo a couple of times and enjoy it.

[iri]

What if people had to go and kill their own animals for meat?
Just have them walk into the piss filled chicken farms and snap ones neck; then get filled with depression and regret as they eat a guilt sandwich.

Though I guess animal cruelty is an early sign of a murderer...
Also great! Now we can point out potential murderers in the world!

One benefit of people growing chickens at home is not having to go to a chicken farm to wring a chicken's neck. By the way, the latter is quite easy.

[Booper]

The Best Burger of the Year Has No Meat in It

[cmadrid]

the biggest lie of the year has no meat in it >_<

[demik]

The Best Burger of the Year Has No Meat in It

The Best Burger of the Year Has No Meat in It

Vote by malnourished vegetarians

[iri]

In my experience, veganism leads to dementia.

[absyrd]

I really just need to be exposed to the vegetarian lifestyle. I've heard buzz that Philly has an amazing scene for it. I just haven't had time to get there. ****... nubbs treated me to dinner in the city and I still haven't even gotten down there for that yet.