Author Topic: Religion Therapy  (Read 28385 times)

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Offline Photekq

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 18:34:52 »
One thing that often gets missed is the agenda that organised religions have. They want and need your devotion in order for them to continue to exist. Science has no such agenda and is only interested in the truth.
Every sector is corruptible. Many parts of science have been corrupt and money-driven for a very long time. Just look at the pharmaceutical industry. Other parts of science are corrupted not by money but by political correctness.
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 November 2015, 19:23:39 by Photekq »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #101 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 19:19:19 »

You've simply altered the definition of 'science' to disprove my point. 

What you're calling "junk science" is exactly what I'm referring to when I say "organised science".


"Real" science is the epitome of a system of checks and balances.
"Real" science depends on careful research, experimentation, and rigorous and unbiased examination and evaluation of data.
"Real" science is delighted when a theory is proven wrong and replaced by a better theory.

A better terminology for what you describe would be "false science" and it just worrisome as false religion, if not far more so.

But of course what it really is is propaganda.

And it has nothing to do with science because it is just a wolf in sheep's clothing and nobody ever punishes the wolf.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #102 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 19:42:39 »

You've simply altered the definition of 'science' to disprove my point. 

What you're calling "junk science" is exactly what I'm referring to when I say "organised science".


"Real" science is the epitome of a system of checks and balances.
"Real" science depends on careful research, experimentation, and rigorous and unbiased examination and evaluation of data.
"Real" science is delighted when a theory is proven wrong and replaced by a better theory.

A better terminology for what you describe would be "false science" and it just worrisome as false religion, if not far more so.

But of course what it really is is propaganda.

And it has nothing to do with science because it is just a wolf in sheep's clothing and nobody ever punishes the wolf.



I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. There are many parallels between different things when you consider the genuine and how it's contrasted with the fake or insincere. In many cases we point a finger at the wolf and then shoot the sheep.

Offline unoab

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 00:05:21 »

You've simply altered the definition of 'science' to disprove my point. 

What you're calling "junk science" is exactly what I'm referring to when I say "organised science".


"Real" science is the epitome of a system of checks and balances.
"Real" science depends on careful research, experimentation, and rigorous and unbiased examination and evaluation of data.
"Real" science is delighted when a theory is proven wrong and replaced by a better theory.

A better terminology for what you describe would be "false science" and it just worrisome as false religion, if not far more so.

But of course what it really is is propaganda.

And it has nothing to do with science because it is just a wolf in sheep's clothing and nobody ever punishes the wolf.



I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. There are many parallels between different things when you consider the genuine and how it's contrasted with the fake or insincere. In many cases we point a finger at the wolf and then shoot the sheep.


To further expound on what Kurplop said about "fake" and "real" having a parallel in Christianity as much as it may exist in science.  To me it appears that many who attack Christianity have not sought out what "fake" or "real" Christianity really is and have fully discounted it based on the view they have been exposed to and not graded it with a similar metric to which they have graded science (or anything else they hold as true).  You can't take all things done in the name of Christianity lumped together, as Christianity, as it is not "what Christians do".  Christianity has more to do with what Christ taught (so "what Christians should do"), and if we are going off what Christ taught, well, ill let a quote finish that off...
As I have said elsewhere, my respect for Jesus and his teachings is immense, and I consider him to be one of the greatest and most beautiful minds that the human race has ever produced, in spite of the fact that he lived in a primitive time where supernatural beings were deemed intellectually acceptable.

Christians that think they can make it on their own, or are not without fault, or see themselves any better than anyone else... well, you may want to ask them what role Christ has in their title of "Christian".  Teachings that are at odds with the teachings of Jesus should be as much a "fake" Christianity as something at odds with your definition of science is a "fake" science.

Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #104 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 01:13:06 »
One thing that often gets missed is the agenda that organised religions have. They want and need your devotion in order for them to continue to exist. Science has no such agenda and is only interested in the truth.

Hmm, I'm not convinced it's so clear cut.  I think that you're absolutely correct about organised religion, but there are many instances of what I would call "organised science" having money and greed as a higher interest than knowledge.  Heck, even just look at the guy who published the article about vaccinations and all that; there's plenty of money floating around the science world, though I can't comment on the severity - it may be nowhere near the same order of magnitude.  But I think it's there to some degree, and shouldn't be ignored.

It's pretty clear cut because that one bloke or that group of researchers were paid to produce those results and stood in opposition to the rest of the science and medical worlds.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #105 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 03:56:04 »

What I'd like to know is how exactly you have personally ruled out the possibility of the existence of God?


I have not ruled out the possibility of God's existence by any means.

...

The question was aimed at baldgye.

...

Dawkins is rational and compelling, unsubstantiated belief in the supernatural is not.

Dawkins may be compelling, but that's got more to do with charisma than science. He may seem rational on the surface, but dig a little into his arguments and you'll realise he's not much of a scientist.

Though incomplete, "The Dawkins Delusion?" is a good deconstruction of some of the "bad science" in Dawkins' "The God Delusion".

If something is unsubstantiated it doesn't mean automatically that it's wrong, just that you lack evidence. You may in fact have a lot of evidence, but have discounted it for whatever reason.

Excluding the possible existence of a Creator is less scientific than including it. In good science, you don't write off possibilities without cause. And if your cause is philosophical rather than based in evidence, then you're also not doing "good science".
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #106 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 04:25:37 »
There is no evidence to suggest the existence of a god, so why could I even consider it?
It's easy to go after Dawkins because he is outspoken, like I've said the church and other religions have a vested interest in discrediting and going after him. The church is a business and they are protecting there profit.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #107 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 06:30:57 »
I once saw a lecture that Richard Dawkins gave, I think it was given at William and Mary, where he supported his claim that God can't exist, because a creator of the universe would have to be far superior to anything we know today. Naturally that would be impossible because the world is so old, God would not have been able to evolve to that level of greatness at such an early time. The audience full of college students cheered.

Am I the only one who fails to see the logic in that claim?

I've read The Blind Watchmaker as well as several other books by Dawkins and found some of his arguments reasonable but far from compelling. What doesn't come through in his writings is his loathsome contempt for anybody that doesn't see the world according to Dawkins.
In fairness I have heard him speak humanely at times. This is a reminder to me that we can't always measure the totality of someone by their frequent public outbursts.

The Blind Watchmaker is a reference to Paley's famous story of how a person seeing a watch would naturally assume a watchmaker. His book attempts to give examples in nature that refute this logic.


Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #108 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 06:39:25 »
I feel like it's pointless to discuss the merits of a lecture he gave without direct quotes.

Dawkins is (from what I can gather) against any and all form of believe systems that rely on blind faith and acceptance of things that can't be proven, give his stance he get bombarded with insanity and nonsense a lot of the time and is asked (like most atheists are) how you can't believe in god etc etc etc like it's on us to explain ourselves when the onus should always be on those that do believe, I might be projecting a bit but that's how he comes across to me and I can understand it.

I feel like I'm trying to defend him, so if it comes off like that then my bad, just trying to give some possible context to the **** you get if you question basic pretty extreme views, like the earth is 7,000 years old, Adam and Eve etc etc

Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #109 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 06:47:34 »
I can appreciate your explanation. That is why I added, what I thought were, gracious allowances by adding that he can speak humanely.

Edit: Sorry , I was unable to find the the YouTube lecture given by Dawkins which I was referring to this morning.  I'll do a further search later.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 November 2015, 07:27:21 by kurplop »

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #110 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 07:41:30 »
One thing that often gets missed is the agenda that organised religions have. They want and need your devotion in order for them to continue to exist. Science has no such agenda and is only interested in the truth.

Hmm, I'm not convinced it's so clear cut.  I think that you're absolutely correct about organised religion, but there are many instances of what I would call "organised science" having money and greed as a higher interest than knowledge.  Heck, even just look at the guy who published the article about vaccinations and all that; there's plenty of money floating around the science world, though I can't comment on the severity - it may be nowhere near the same order of magnitude.  But I think it's there to some degree, and shouldn't be ignored.

It's pretty clear cut because that one bloke or that group of researchers were paid to produce those results and stood in opposition to the rest of the science and medical worlds.

Right, but the point still stands that this near-perfect entity (the modern "science" field) has its flaws and can have nearly the same thing happen (corrupt people screwing others over for personal gain).  I was merely pointing out the similarities that may not have been immediately drawn.  I, AGAIN, was not saying that they are perfectly equal in severity or anything of that sort.  Just providing a counter-example for thought. 

You could easily make the point that The Church was acting "in opposition to the rest of the [religious] world" when they did all the bad things they've done, no?  O.o

Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #111 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 07:53:24 »
One thing that often gets missed is the agenda that organised religions have. They want and need your devotion in order for them to continue to exist. Science has no such agenda and is only interested in the truth.

Hmm, I'm not convinced it's so clear cut.  I think that you're absolutely correct about organised religion, but there are many instances of what I would call "organised science" having money and greed as a higher interest than knowledge.  Heck, even just look at the guy who published the article about vaccinations and all that; there's plenty of money floating around the science world, though I can't comment on the severity - it may be nowhere near the same order of magnitude.  But I think it's there to some degree, and shouldn't be ignored.

It's pretty clear cut because that one bloke or that group of researchers were paid to produce those results and stood in opposition to the rest of the science and medical worlds.

Right, but the point still stands that this near-perfect entity (the modern "science" field) has its flaws and can have nearly the same thing happen (corrupt people screwing others over for personal gain).  I was merely pointing out the similarities that may not have been immediately drawn.  I, AGAIN, was not saying that they are perfectly equal in severity or anything of that sort.  Just providing a counter-example for thought. 

You could easily make the point that The Church was acting "in opposition to the rest of the [religious] world" when they did all the bad things they've done, no?  O.o

I'm not really following, when those scientists pushed these results against vaccinations, they were doing so at the same time as being attacked by other scientists and doctors who had and could prove otherwise. This is how the science community works, constant never ending peer review.

My example of 'the church' was only for simplicities sake, but if you subscribe to Christianity and you have questions, ' the church' is massively bias in only one direction, where as science generally has no bias one way or the other unless it can and or has been proven.
There is no 'head of science' that dictates how 'science' should be, or a book of rules that can never be changed or questioned, hell even the 'laws' of physics arn't set in stone...

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #112 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:04:03 »
Religion, science, and politics are 3 different things with completely different functions (as we know them today).

As long as each "stays in its place" there is little conflict, but as soon as one "gets into the other's business" there is bound to be contamination.

If all of the "religious" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about progress and improving the human condition.

If all of the "science" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about the society, ethics, and governance.

If all of the "political" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about theology and cosmology.

The fact that these (as we know them today) disparate streams have become so convoluted and intertwined makes it hard to extricate any one thing and discuss it in a straightforward manner.

If someone asked me "What is the problem with religion and politics today?" I would point to the the frenzy in the US over abortion/gay rights/etc, the frenzy in Israel over the continued occupation of Palestinian territory, and the frenzy in the Iraq/Syria/etc region with primitive barbarians attempting to re-establish a theistic government, and I see the same thing in each area, albeit to different degrees of cruelty.

Regardless of theological debates, the most important thing to me, for the very safety of the human race itself, is to do what our Founding Fathers worked so diligently to accomplish in this country, and that is to completely separate the Church from the State. And I would recommend that recipe to all other nations, worldwide, as well.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:08:47 »
Religion, science, and politics are 3 different things with completely different functions (as we know them today).

As long as each "stays in its place" there is little conflict, but as soon as one "gets into the other's business" there is bound to be contamination.

If all of the "religious" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about progress and improving the human condition.

If all of the "science" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about the society, ethics, and governance.

If all of the "political" components could be removed from this thread, it could be a discussion about theology and cosmology.

The fact that these (as we know them today) disparate streams have become so convoluted and intertwined makes it hard to extricate any one thing and discuss it in a straightforward manner.

If someone asked me "What is the problem with religion and politics today?" I would point to the the frenzy in the US over abortion/gay rights/etc, the frenzy in Israel over the continued occupation of Palestinian territory, and the frenzy in the Iraq/Syria/etc region with primitive barbarians attempting to re-establish a theistic government, and I see the same thing in each area, albeit to different degrees of cruelty.

Regardless of theological debates, the most important thing to me, for the very safety of the human race itself, is to do what our Founding Fathers worked so diligently to accomplish in this country, and that is to completely separate the Church from the State. And I would recommend that recipe to all other nations, worldwide, as well.


an easier way to solve the human condition...
eradicate it...

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #114 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:10:36 »
One thing that often gets missed is the agenda that organised religions have. They want and need your devotion in order for them to continue to exist. Science has no such agenda and is only interested in the truth.

Hmm, I'm not convinced it's so clear cut.  I think that you're absolutely correct about organised religion, but there are many instances of what I would call "organised science" having money and greed as a higher interest than knowledge.  Heck, even just look at the guy who published the article about vaccinations and all that; there's plenty of money floating around the science world, though I can't comment on the severity - it may be nowhere near the same order of magnitude.  But I think it's there to some degree, and shouldn't be ignored.

It's pretty clear cut because that one bloke or that group of researchers were paid to produce those results and stood in opposition to the rest of the science and medical worlds.

Right, but the point still stands that this near-perfect entity (the modern "science" field) has its flaws and can have nearly the same thing happen (corrupt people screwing others over for personal gain).  I was merely pointing out the similarities that may not have been immediately drawn.  I, AGAIN, was not saying that they are perfectly equal in severity or anything of that sort.  Just providing a counter-example for thought. 

You could easily make the point that The Church was acting "in opposition to the rest of the [religious] world" when they did all the bad things they've done, no?  O.o

I'm not really following, when those scientists pushed these results against vaccinations, they were doing so at the same time as being attacked by other scientists and doctors who had and could prove otherwise. This is how the science community works, constant never ending peer review.

My example of 'the church' was only for simplicities sake, but if you subscribe to Christianity and you have questions, ' the church' is massively bias in only one direction, where as science generally has no bias one way or the other unless it can and or has been proven.
There is no 'head of science' that dictates how 'science' should be, or a book of rules that can never be changed or questioned, hell even the 'laws' of physics arn't set in stone...

Good point!  Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my example.  :D  I forgot that science tends to be a bit more self-correcting in these situations.

Carry on!

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #115 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:30:16 »
eradicate it...

Precisely the ISIS solution, as I understand it.
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Offline iri

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #116 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:30:23 »
what "Church" are you talking about here?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #117 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 08:30:40 »
eradicate it...

Precisely the ISIS solution, as I understand it.


Not quite haha

Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #118 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 09:00:52 »
...
If anyone ever showed me even a tiny shred of evidence for the existence of the Hebrew God, I would take it very seriously and might adjust my opinions accordingly.

Would you consider "secular" documentation of a Biblical miracle enough of a tiny shred of evidence?

First to give the setting: Jesus died around 3pm Judea time during the Jewish Passover. The "6th hour" = noon, the "9th hour" = 3pm.

Matthew 27:45 - "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
Mark 15:33 - "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."
Luke 23:44 - "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour."

And Matthew 27:51 - "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

A remarkable event, which many have ascribed to an eclipse and an earthquake.

Both Eusebius and Origen refer to a description by Phlegon of Tralles (a historian who wrote "Olympiades", a compendium of Greek history, divided by 4 year cycles) of an eclipse accompanied by earthquakes during the reign of Tiberius ("during the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad" which would put it in 32/33AD): that there was "the greatest eclipse of the sun” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.”

Bithynia is in northern Turkey, on the edge of the Black Sea and it is in the same time zone as Jerusalem.

Tertullian wrote: "At the moment of Christ’s death, the light departed from the sun, and the land was darkened at noonday, which wonder is related in your own annals, and is preserved in your archives to this day."

And Africanus: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Okay, so we have written evidence for an eclipse occuring at the time of Jesus's crucifixion. Significant, but not miraculous. Except that Jesus' crucifixion happened during Jewish Passover, when there was a full moon. In fact, the full moon that rose on April 3, 33AD, the date of the crucifixion (see below) -it was the day of preparation, the day the lambs were slain for the feast the following day, another interesting "coincidence" with very strong symbolism-, was experiencing a partial lunar eclipse and would have appeared in red (http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEhistory/LEplot/LE0033Apr03P.pdf). Which means the moon was on the wrong side of the earth to cause a solar eclipse.

From Isaac Newton's reconstruction of the Jewish calendar in order to find the crucifixion date: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

"the 14th day of the month Nisan will fall in the year of Christ 31 on wednesday March 28; in the year 32 on monday Apr. 14; in the year 33 on friday Apr. 3; in the year 34, on friday Apr. 23; in the year 35, on wednesday Apr. 13; and in the year 36, on saturday March 31."

It's worth noting that he narrowed it down to either 3 April 33AD or 23 April 34AD, but favoured the second due to a comment in Luke about the ripeness of the corn at passover 2 years prior which led him to think there had been 5 instead of 4 passovers during His ministry. However, it is now commonly accepted that there were only 4 and that the true date is 3 April 33AD.

So now we have a "darkening of the sun" which lasts 3 hours, an earthquake and a partial lunar eclipse on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, with references to the eclipse and earthquake in the writings of historians. Which points to Jesus having been rather more than just a special human being.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #119 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 09:09:24 »
...
If anyone ever showed me even a tiny shred of evidence for the existence of the Hebrew God, I would take it very seriously and might adjust my opinions accordingly.

Would you consider "secular" documentation of a Biblical miracle enough of a tiny shred of evidence?

First to give the setting: Jesus died around 3pm Judea time during the Jewish Passover. The "6th hour" = noon, the "9th hour" = 3pm.

Matthew 27:45 - "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
Mark 15:33 - "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."
Luke 23:44 - "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour."

And Matthew 27:51 - "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

A remarkable event, which many have ascribed to an eclipse and an earthquake.

Both Eusebius and Origen refer to a description by Phlegon of Tralles (a historian who wrote "Olympiades", a compendium of Greek history, divided by 4 year cycles) of an eclipse accompanied by earthquakes during the reign of Tiberius ("during the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad" which would put it in 32/33AD): that there was "the greatest eclipse of the sun” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.”

Bithynia is in northern Turkey, on the edge of the Black Sea and it is in the same time zone as Jerusalem.

Tertullian wrote: "At the moment of Christ’s death, the light departed from the sun, and the land was darkened at noonday, which wonder is related in your own annals, and is preserved in your archives to this day."

And Africanus: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Okay, so we have written evidence for an eclipse occuring at the time of Jesus's crucifixion. Significant, but not miraculous. Except that Jesus' crucifixion happened during Jewish Passover, when there was a full moon. In fact, the full moon that rose on April 3, 33AD, the date of the crucifixion (see below) -it was the day of preparation, the day the lambs were slain for the feast the following day, another interesting "coincidence" with very strong symbolism-, was experiencing a partial lunar eclipse and would have appeared in red (http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEhistory/LEplot/LE0033Apr03P.pdf). Which means the moon was on the wrong side of the earth to cause a solar eclipse.

From Isaac Newton's reconstruction of the Jewish calendar in order to find the crucifixion date: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

"the 14th day of the month Nisan will fall in the year of Christ 31 on wednesday March 28; in the year 32 on monday Apr. 14; in the year 33 on friday Apr. 3; in the year 34, on friday Apr. 23; in the year 35, on wednesday Apr. 13; and in the year 36, on saturday March 31."

It's worth noting that he narrowed it down to either 3 April 33AD or 23 April 34AD, but favoured the second due to a comment in Luke about the ripeness of the corn at passover 2 years prior which led him to think there had been 5 instead of 4 passovers during His ministry. However, it is now commonly accepted that there were only 4 and that the true date is 3 April 33AD.

So now we have a "darkening of the sun" which lasts 3 hours, an earthquake and a partial lunar eclipse on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, with references to the eclipse and earthquake in the writings of historians. Which points to Jesus having been rather more than just a special human being.

And you are presenting this as something above and beyond coincidence, speculation, and story-telling?

Sorry, there is zero there that interests me.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #120 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 09:29:05 »
...

And you are presenting this as something above and beyond coincidence, speculation, and story-telling?

Sorry, there is zero there that interests me.

It's evidence. How you interpret it is entirely up to you.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #121 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 10:15:12 »
It's evidence. How you interpret it is entirely up to you.

It is murky history and fanciful storytelling passed down from the Bronze Age.

Yes, there are floods and eclipses and earthquakes and other events happening at rare occasions. So what? Synchronicity?

Didn't the Aztecs surrender to Columbus or Cortez or somebody because there was an eclipse when he arrived? God's plan for European Manifest Destiny?

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Offline Waateva

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #122 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 12:00:23 »
I am going to preface my statements with a little background.  I grew up in a religious family, went to and graduated from a Christian school, and still live in West Michigan, which is a very religious area of Michigan.  Given this information, I may be considered a little biased against the religious side of things, but I have truly had a "journey" of sorts when it comes to my personal beliefs, and those beliefs have changed quite a bit in the last 15 years.

When I grew up, there was always the message from the pulpit that you should be questioning your faith, but what I saw was people questioning their faith to a comfortable point, and then circling back to their same conclusions.  It seemed to me growing up almost to be a rite of passage, that you did your research from Christian or vaguely Christian sources, got a little rebellious with your personal beliefs of Christianity, and then folded back into what you were taught growing up some years later.  This resulted in a lot of people having testimonies ranging from just backsliding a little to full blown apostasy, only to be brought back to the lord and how great it is now!

I decided to do some questioning of my personal beliefs when I graduated and moved out, but I came to some very different conclusions than what I had heard in those other people's testimonies.  I drifted from believing in a god but not following him, to believing that there could be a god but that I couldn't figure which god that is, to a point where I doubted that there could be a deity of any kind.  This journey came from years of research into the Bible both from Christian and non-Christian sources, as well as historical research into the validity of not only the Christian religion, but all religions in general.

I now consider myself a relatively strong atheist, as my personal research has shown the contradictions of Christianity both in the Bible itself and also in the actual religion itself, while also touching on the contradictions present in all religions.  I will admit most of my research has been directed at Christianity, as my upbringing and location make that by far the most accessible and most pertinent to my daily life.

...
If anyone ever showed me even a tiny shred of evidence for the existence of the Hebrew God, I would take it very seriously and might adjust my opinions accordingly.

Would you consider "secular" documentation of a Biblical miracle enough of a tiny shred of evidence?

First to give the setting: Jesus died around 3pm Judea time during the Jewish Passover. The "6th hour" = noon, the "9th hour" = 3pm.

Matthew 27:45 - "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
Mark 15:33 - "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."
Luke 23:44 - "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour."

And Matthew 27:51 - "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

A remarkable event, which many have ascribed to an eclipse and an earthquake.

Both Eusebius and Origen refer to a description by Phlegon of Tralles (a historian who wrote "Olympiades", a compendium of Greek history, divided by 4 year cycles) of an eclipse accompanied by earthquakes during the reign of Tiberius ("during the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad" which would put it in 32/33AD): that there was "the greatest eclipse of the sun” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.”

Bithynia is in northern Turkey, on the edge of the Black Sea and it is in the same time zone as Jerusalem.

Tertullian wrote: "At the moment of Christ’s death, the light departed from the sun, and the land was darkened at noonday, which wonder is related in your own annals, and is preserved in your archives to this day."

And Africanus: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Okay, so we have written evidence for an eclipse occuring at the time of Jesus's crucifixion. Significant, but not miraculous. Except that Jesus' crucifixion happened during Jewish Passover, when there was a full moon. In fact, the full moon that rose on April 3, 33AD, the date of the crucifixion (see below) -it was the day of preparation, the day the lambs were slain for the feast the following day, another interesting "coincidence" with very strong symbolism-, was experiencing a partial lunar eclipse and would have appeared in red (http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEhistory/LEplot/LE0033Apr03P.pdf). Which means the moon was on the wrong side of the earth to cause a solar eclipse.

From Isaac Newton's reconstruction of the Jewish calendar in order to find the crucifixion date: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

"the 14th day of the month Nisan will fall in the year of Christ 31 on wednesday March 28; in the year 32 on monday Apr. 14; in the year 33 on friday Apr. 3; in the year 34, on friday Apr. 23; in the year 35, on wednesday Apr. 13; and in the year 36, on saturday March 31."

It's worth noting that he narrowed it down to either 3 April 33AD or 23 April 34AD, but favoured the second due to a comment in Luke about the ripeness of the corn at passover 2 years prior which led him to think there had been 5 instead of 4 passovers during His ministry. However, it is now commonly accepted that there were only 4 and that the true date is 3 April 33AD.

So now we have a "darkening of the sun" which lasts 3 hours, an earthquake and a partial lunar eclipse on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, with references to the eclipse and earthquake in the writings of historians. Which points to Jesus having been rather more than just a special human being.

I have trouble taking anything from the Bible at face value, but especially the Gospels.  The Gospels are absolutely full of contradictions, and most apologetics try to dismiss these contradictions as irrelevant, or even better, as proof that the Gospels are actually true!  For just a few of them, which I will admit I shamelessly am copy pasting to save time:

1.  How many generations were there between Abraham to David?  Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations.  Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.
2.  Was she dead or just dying?  (Matthew 9:18)  He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead.  (Luke 8:41-42)  Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
3.  Just what did Jesus instruct them to take?  (Matthew 10:10)  Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals.  (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
4.  Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt.  Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.
5.  Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples?  In a room in Jerusalem.  Luke 24:32-37  On a mountain in Galilee.  Matthew 28:15-17
6.  Where did Christ ascend from?  From Mount Olivet.  Acts 1:9-12 From Bethany. Luke 24:50-51
7.  Who was the father of Joseph?  Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob.  Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli.
8.  When did John find out Jesus was the Messiah?  (Matthew 11:2-3)  While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the messiah.  (Luke 7:18-22)  While imprisoned.  John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah. (John 1 :29-34,36)  John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.

These are just a handful of a laundry list of contradictions present just in the Gospels, which constitutes just 4 of the 39 books of the Protestant bible (Catholic bible has 47 I believe.) 

Also, somewhat hilariously, we have Matthew 27:52-53 which states; "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."  So we have a bunch of people coming back from the dead, wandering around Jerusalem and meeting other people, and this was only a big enough deal to record in one of the Gospels and nowhere else in any historical records?!

For the reasons above and many, many more I just can't take the bible seriously anymore.  While I am sure that some of the stuff present in the bible happened and some of the people certainly existed, the recent trend among Christians to take it literally (unless its not convenient, than it was just symbolic or you're taking it out of context) has, IMO, contributed greatly to the decline of churches and their membership in an era of easily accessible information.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #123 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 16:42:52 »
Well, you had me going for a while and I was just about to denounce my faith, but when I got home and began checking your references I realized I had been a bit premature in my decision.

I would encourage anyone reading this to check Waateva's references. If this is the best he has, he may want to reconsider his decision. Most of his contradictions just don't stand up to a cursory glance. Rather than explaining them now, if anyone reads them and needs a simple and logical explanation to any, I'd be happy to respond. The only one that offers any real concern appears to be his last reference to the open tombs and I don't think that alone is a faith shaker.

I don't deny some difficulties within the texts and even with comprehending concepts that are hard to resolve. For example, the theodicy of evil and suffering.  But just because I can't comprehend something, doesn't mean it's not true.

Offline Waateva

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #124 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 17:13:42 »
Well, you had me going for a while and I was just about to denounce my faith, but when I got home and began checking your references I realized I had been a bit premature in my decision.

I would encourage anyone reading this to check Waateva's references. If this is the best he has, he may want to reconsider his decision. Most of his contradictions just don't stand up to a cursory glance. Rather than explaining them now, if anyone reads them and needs a simple and logical explanation to any, I'd be happy to respond. The only one that offers any real concern appears to be his last reference to the open tombs and I don't think that alone is a faith shaker.

I don't deny some difficulties within the texts and even with comprehending concepts that are hard to resolve. For example, the theodicy of evil and suffering.  But just because I can't comprehend something, doesn't mean it's not true.

They're not meant to shatter people's faith, they are simply meant to show that if the bible is truly God's word as Christians believe and that all scripture  is inspired by God, why don't things match up?  God's word is infallible to most Christians, yet it can't even get basic things straight like a very prominent character's lineage or where their savior went after he was born. 

You can also take a look at the site below (I don't know how to imbed links yet :( ) where you have a truly massive info-graphic comprising over 60,000 cross references in the bible that consists of contradictions and other things.

http://bibviz.com/
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #125 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 17:35:33 »
Or you could just read it as a rational, intelligent person, I guess?

Offline Parak

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 01:47:55 »
Would you consider "secular" documentation of a Biblical miracle enough of a tiny shred of evidence?

First to give the setting: Jesus died around 3pm Judea time during the Jewish Passover. The "6th hour" = noon, the "9th hour" = 3pm.

Matthew 27:45 - "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
Mark 15:33 - "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."
Luke 23:44 - "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour."

And Matthew 27:51 - "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

Not secular, of course. But obviously of potential interest if it's referred to by secular sources.

Both Eusebius and Origen refer to a description by Phlegon of Tralles (a historian who wrote "Olympiades", a compendium of Greek history, divided by 4 year cycles) of an eclipse accompanied by earthquakes during the reign of Tiberius ("during the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad" which would put it in 32/33AD): that there was "the greatest eclipse of the sun” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.”

Bithynia is in northern Turkey, on the edge of the Black Sea and it is in the same time zone as Jerusalem.

Neither Eusebius nor Origen are secular. They cite Phlegon, but reliability of said citation aside, Bithynia is not particularly close to Jerusalem, and neither an earthquake or an eclipse there would be noticed in Jerusalem.

Tertullian wrote: "At the moment of Christ’s death, the light departed from the sun, and the land was darkened at noonday, which wonder is related in your own annals, and is preserved in your archives to this day."

And Africanus: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Not secular. Thallus is cited, but once again the reliability of the citation has to be called into question as we don't even know exactly when Thallus lived, there are no surviving works, and there is no evidence that he ever wrote of Jesus, in context of the 'eclipse' or outside it.

Contemporary evidence of miracles surrounding Jesus is definitely scant at best, not to mention that descriptions of some of the miracles in the Bible is rife with problems, inconsistencies, and seeming contradictions. The Infallible/Inerrant Word of God really doesn't need those types of problems or justifications and wrangling required to theologically work around them. The amount of rewriting, translations, explanations, corruptions, and other issues that affected the Bible really don't inspire a whole lot of confidence in the narrative as a whole, much less as a How to Live Life 101.

Unfortunately, the frequency and claims of miracles seems to have drastically gone down in recent times. What with everyone having a camera in their pocket along with (usually) basic understanding of scientific and medical phenomena, the ability for us skeptics to collectively experience a miracle of any sort to immediately convert us into believers is not looking too good.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 02:22:36 »
So if a secular source is quoted it is still suspect because the author is a Christian? That's a bit like saying that if someone believes what they experience they can't be trusted.

In a day of PC and ultra-sensitivity to other people groups, this seems like profiling to a extreme degree. I don't mind it. Information may be correct, but the reliability of its accuracy is only as good as its source.

I guess it's fair to question sources you deem unreliable. I just wonder if there is any news the messenger can deliver, that won't just be scrutinized but immediately rejected.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 03:13:55 »
...
They're not meant to shatter people's faith, they are simply meant to show that if the bible is truly God's word as Christians believe and that all scripture  is inspired by God, why don't things match up? 
...


First off, "inspired by God" is not the same as "God wrote every line with his own hand". God uses people, He works through people and He allows their character and personality to influence the work. The result has the signature of both God and the person through whom it is done.

1. They're tracing different genealogies, Matthew through Solomon, Luke through Nathan. Matthew appears to be tracing the genealogy through "heirs" from David down, while Luke appears to be tracing "ancestors" from Joseph back. In the end it's not that important, since they both trace a workable lineage from David to Jesus.
2. Dead or dying? In Luke a servant comes after to tell that she has died in between his initial speech to Jesus and going to his house. In Matthew the in-between step is skipped, but the basic story is the same. Girl is dead and they know before going to the house.
3. Could be down to Mark gathering from different written sources. Luke 9:3 says not to take staffs, Luke 10:4 no shoes which again matches Matthew overall, with Matthew "concatenating" both accounts into one.
4. Not all the Gospels have all the accounts / sections in them. Luke just skips over the trip to Egypt. Perhaps he could not find enough convincing and consistent testimony to include it (see below for more on Luke).
5. The first appearence that is recorded is on the road to Emmaus. The appearance in Galilee is the third recorded.
6. Bethany is on the eastern slopes of the Mount of Olives (Mount Olivet), so the answer is "both", they're the same thing.
7. See point 1. Heli is Joseph's biological father, Jacob his legal in terms of inheritance from David.
8. Is it not feasible that the sending was for his disciples' sake, not his own, to confirm for them what he already knew?

BUT... It doesn't really matter. All the Gospels are written by different people who either experienced the events first hand, gathered the information from those who experienced it, or gathered it from the various extant written accounts. Inevitably there will be differences in the telling as there are from any group of people who witness an event, and the further from the even they are, the more scattered the account. This speaks to me more about the truth of the matters than their falsehood. If it were all a conspiracy, there'd be effort made to make them all align. As it is, they come across as honest. Each is written in a different character, by very different people and they will naturally put more focus (and try to be more accurate) on different parts, the parts they consider most profound or important. In any case, the most important parts align and the core message remains the same in all of them.

If you're looking for accuracy (and the account most satisfying to a scientific mind) then Luke is the one to look at, particularly in the King James Version since most modern versions were translated using Westcott and Hort's Greek text and they based it on less reliable (in my opinion) manuscripts. He gathered much of his information through interviews, rather like a detective piecing together what really happened from each individual interviewed. This tends to filter out the differences and can lead to the most accurate picture. He was a physician and wrote in such a manner as to make things testable. In fact, he mentions hundreds of "important" people, places and events to place the events he describes accurately in time and location.

For the emotional and deeper, meaningful version choose John. Some amazing stuff right at the beginning. The first chapters of John and Genesis are my favourites.

Matthew comes across as rather excitable and passionate, perhaps with a little less attention to detail.

Mark is a bit of a hotch-potch. It's gathered from a variety of sources and more "compiled" than the others. All the core components are there as they should be, though, but it's not my favourite, revealing little of the personality of the author / compiler and thus I find it rather "dry".
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 03:31:59 »
I feel like it's pointless to discuss the merits of a lecture he gave without direct quotes.


I feel like I'm trying to defend him, so if it comes off like that then my bad, just trying to give some possible context to the **** you get if you question basic pretty extreme views, like the earth is 7,000 years old, Adam and Eve etc etc


While I don't think that it is pointless to discuss matters without direct quotes, it probably isn't fair and verifiable. I was unable to find the lecture I was referring to. If I do I'll post it.

There's nothing wrong with trying to explain or defend Dawkins. I agree with your point that he probably gets a lot of feedback that is an insult to his more highly developed understanding of biology. I'd likely become indignant and impatient too.

Offline tbc

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #130 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 03:34:01 »
Is there actually any definition of science that states it exists to prove or disprove the existence of a good?
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #131 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 03:43:40 »
... neither an earthquake or an eclipse there would be noticed in Jerusalem.

...

Unfortunately, the frequency and claims of miracles seems to have drastically gone down in recent times. What with everyone having a camera in their pocket along with (usually) basic understanding of scientific and medical phenomena, the ability for us skeptics to collectively experience a miracle of any sort to immediately convert us into believers is not looking too good.

It wasn't an eclipse, as I very clearly pointed out in my post. It was full moon (and actually a partial lunar eclipse) at the time.

Nicea and Judea are the places specifically mentioned as having experienced quakes, is it not possible that there were two localised quakes at a similar time? They are not all that far apart as to rule them out from having the same geological cause.

About "modern miracles". The whole point of the Biblical miracles was to point to the deity of Christ. Those to whom He gives authority can also perform miracles. In fact He said of them "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.",  implying that as a believer we are able to perform miracles and would do even more than Him since His ministry on earth was ending, while we remain so we have more time to do them, thus can do more of them. However, with advances in medical technology and other areas, the need for miracles is less (in terms of direct miracles for healing, etc) and many simply do not trust that they have the authority to do miracles. Also, the potential for pride is quite a preventative. It must be clear that the power and authority are from God, not us, and that requires a particularly strong person with great modesty. Doesn't mean they don't happen, just that they tend to be smaller and more personally meaningful than public.

The scope for experiencing a miracle is not diminished, but the circumstances for doing them (and the belief that we have the authority) and the chances of them being directly attributed to God as they should be are.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #132 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 03:44:05 »
...
You can also take a look at the site below (I don't know how to imbed links yet :( ) where you have a truly massive info-graphic comprising over 60,000 cross references in the bible that consists of contradictions and other things.

http://bibviz.com/

Nice anti-theist site. They make absolutely no effort in trying to understand or make clear the context of what they quote.

As an example I watched the Sam Harris video. It's from a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig on morality.

In debates, atheists are most often the first to throw reason to the wind and resort to "name-calling", emotional appeals and cliches, just as Sam did there. Listen to the whole debate to get context. Craig stuck to the topic, presented well-reasoned arguments and absolutely demolished Sam's arguments. The point is not "What is the character of God?" which should be another whole debate, but the origins of morality, and on that point Harris failed miserably.

Harris did propose some points worth considering, but he threw them out as red herrings to take things in a different direction, while appealing to emotions, adding cliches and name-calling at the same time. He was clearly losing, so he threw a red herring and tried to escape. He sets up a straw man.

His claim that God is evil because He doesn't intervene when there is suffering (if He has the power to do so) is an emotional appeal without reason. Allow me to reverse the question to gain a perspective on the absurdity of his statement. What would happen if God did intervene in every situation where there is suffering? And should He? What would the world be like if he did perform "miracles" in every case? Would that leave space for people to exercise their own free will and morality? In the majority of cases, people suffer and die through situations created by other people. Is God to blame for those people's actions?  Or the lack of action on behalf of others that should be intervening? People should be doing what they can to alleviate the suffering. Why? Because we have an objective morality that has its origins in a good God. Not only that, but God chooses to work through people. We are the "body of Christ", his agents in the world. It's our own immorality and inaction that should be taking the blame here, not an "evil" God.

Moving on to natural disasters. That's a difficult one, but you could (if you didn't want to expend effort) say it's the result of man's disobedience. The world itself became "broken" with the fall of man. But that's a bit of a cop-out. So I'll add some "meat" to the discussion. It's very relevant to the concept of intelligibility of the universe and the reliability of the natural laws. If someone someone jumps off a cliff and expects God to save Him, is that rational? If someone build their house on a fault line, knowing there are regular quakes that happen there every year, is God to blame when the house falls down? Natural disasters are the consequence of the laws of nature functioning unimpeded. It's very likely that God has in fact prevented many such disasters from happening through direct influence, but then there's no way of knowing this, is there? And where do you draw the line of "interacting"? You want the laws of nature to be consistent so you can understand and make sense of the universe (and do SCIENCE!), then you want God to jump in and intervene whenever it's convenient to you?

That's just one of the items on the site, the one that drew my attention most clearly. I certainly don't have the time to go through all of them.
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #133 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 11:53:06 »
So if a secular source is quoted it is still suspect because the author is a Christian? That's a bit like saying that if someone believes what they experience they can't be trusted.

In a day of PC and ultra-sensitivity to other people groups, this seems like profiling to a extreme degree. I don't mind it. Information may be correct, but the reliability of its accuracy is only as good as its source.

I guess it's fair to question sources you deem unreliable. I just wonder if there is any news the messenger can deliver, that won't just be scrutinized but immediately rejected.

I think a major issue of not having secular sources corroborating information in the bible is that most Christians will not admit the bible is wrong, under any circumstances.  If you can validate the information from someone that is not a part of your religious group, especially for things related to the resurrection of your savior,  it makes that information much stronger to others.

...
They're not meant to shatter people's faith, they are simply meant to show that if the bible is truly God's word as Christians believe and that all scripture  is inspired by God, why don't things match up? 
...


First off, "inspired by God" is not the same as "God wrote every line with his own hand". God uses people, He works through people and He allows their character and personality to influence the work. The result has the signature of both God and the person through whom it is done.

I would disagree, as Matthew 5:17-18 states, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."  Jesus is trying to reinforce the validity and accuracy of scripture down the smallest details, which I don't see as being accurate.

...
They're not meant to shatter people's faith, they are simply meant to show that if the bible is truly God's word as Christians believe and that all scripture  is inspired by God, why don't things match up? 
...

BUT... It doesn't really matter. All the Gospels are written by different people who either experienced the events first hand, gathered the information from those who experienced it, or gathered it from the various extant written accounts. Inevitably there will be differences in the telling as there are from any group of people who witness an event, and the further from the even they are, the more scattered the account. This speaks to me more about the truth of the matters than their falsehood. If it were all a conspiracy, there'd be effort made to make them all align. As it is, they come across as honest. Each is written in a different character, by very different people and they will naturally put more focus (and try to be more accurate) on different parts, the parts they consider most profound or important. In any case, the most important parts align and the core message remains the same in all of them.

This circles back to the belief among some Christians that the Gospels being different is actually proof that they are true, which has never made any sense to me.  If ten people are taping something, say a musical performance, then while their positioning would be different they would still be taping the same show.  One video wouldn't have the singer singing something different than the other nine and another one wouldn't have different songs played than the other nine, and while they may be taped at a different portion of the show, they should still show the same progression of events.  This is how I view how the Gospels should read if they are to be taken seriously, and even taking into account the possibility of different accounts and the fact that they were written, on the low side, 40 years after the events happened, there shouldn't be too many major differences.

...
They're not meant to shatter people's faith, they are simply meant to show that if the bible is truly God's word as Christians believe and that all scripture  is inspired by God, why don't things match up? 
...

If you're looking for accuracy (and the account most satisfying to a scientific mind) then Luke is the one to look at, particularly in the King James Version since most modern versions were translated using Westcott and Hort's Greek text and they based it on less reliable (in my opinion) manuscripts. He gathered much of his information through interviews, rather like a detective piecing together what really happened from each individual interviewed. This tends to filter out the differences and can lead to the most accurate picture. He was a physician and wrote in such a manner as to make things testable. In fact, he mentions hundreds of "important" people, places and events to place the events he describes accurately in time and location.

For the emotional and deeper, meaningful version choose John. Some amazing stuff right at the beginning. The first chapters of John and Genesis are my favourites.

Matthew comes across as rather excitable and passionate, perhaps with a little less attention to detail.

Mark is a bit of a hotch-potch. It's gathered from a variety of sources and more "compiled" than the others. All the core components are there as they should be, though, but it's not my favourite, revealing little of the personality of the author / compiler and thus I find it rather "dry".

When I was reading the bible when I was younger, Luke's Gospel was definitely my favorite.  I found it to feel like it was the most authentic and most accurate, while the rest I felt were too emotional and passionate, as you have pointed out!  Either way, Luke-Acts still would be what I consider the most valid of the Gospels, but we run into problems as even biblical scholars don't agree that Luke-Acts was written by Luke the Evangelist, it is the youngest Gospel in terms of composition date, and there are no original manuscripts of Luke-Acts, just copies of copies that aren't even identical.  As we know from most written history, the further we get from the date of something happening the higher than chance that the information has been remembered incorrectly or written down incorrectly, as is evidenced by the fact the witness testimonies in court cases are considered the least reliable form of evidence.

Of course, this can easily be remedied by saying that God has a hand in making sure this information is recorded and/or remembered correctly, but if this is the case why is this not consistent?  Why is scripture taken literally when convenient for personal beliefs but then taken contextually or figuratively when not convenient?

Is there actually any definition of science that states it exists to prove or disprove the existence of a good?

Of course not, science simply exists to offer us a better understanding of the workings of the universe.  Historically, science and the church worked hand in hand, with a lot of scientific breakthroughs coming from priests and clergy members.  This seems to have changed somewhat recently, where people have started taking the bible much more literally, which was not done often prior to the last 100 years, which has resulted in people trying to force science into their religious mold.  If they find science that backs up their religious beliefs, great, but if science is found contrary to their religious beliefs it is a sham and obviously wrong because their faith/their pastor/their bible says so.

This is not reserved for religious folks either, as some non-religious/atheists/agnostics have taken the other side and automatically dismiss anything religious or biblical as untrue.  This is a misuse of science, as the scientific method should be applied evenly and without bias to information across the board, and if something in the bible holds up to that I have no issue with it.

...
You can also take a look at the site below (I don't know how to imbed links yet :( ) where you have a truly massive info-graphic comprising over 60,000 cross references in the bible that consists of contradictions and other things.

http://bibviz.com/

Nice anti-theist site. They make absolutely no effort in trying to understand or make clear the context of what they quote.

There is no way I would consider that website anti-theist, I mean it doesn't even offer a commentary to go along with the verses.  It gives you information and simply matches up verses of the bible that state one thing and then state something contrary, even if some of them are admittedly pedantic.  So even if you can rationalize away 3/4 of those (a very high percentage) that still leaves hundreds of things in the bible that do not line up with one another.

We of course have the contextual argument pop up at this point, as it usually does.  I certainly agree with reading things in the context, but the text of the bible is constantly being updated by its followers, again when convenient, to apply different contexts to its scripture.  Take for example slavery, where the New Testament Epistle of Philemon has been taken "in context" by both pro-slavery supporters to support their cause as well as abolitionists to support their cause, however, the Old Testament is also largely seen as contextually supporting slavery, whereas the New Testament has usually been seen contextually as not supporting slavery even though the gap between them is only ~600 years.  What happened in those 600 years that caused God to, in a sense, change his mind about slavery and to allow the context of the subject change so much from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

...
You can also take a look at the site below (I don't know how to imbed links yet :( ) where you have a truly massive info-graphic comprising over 60,000 cross references in the bible that consists of contradictions and other things.

http://bibviz.com/

As an example I watched the Sam Harris video. It's from a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig on morality.

In debates, atheists are most often the first to throw reason to the wind and resort to "name-calling", emotional appeals and cliches, just as Sam did there. Listen to the whole debate to get context. Craig stuck to the topic, presented well-reasoned arguments and absolutely demolished Sam's arguments. The point is not "What is the character of God?" which should be another whole debate, but the origins of morality, and on that point Harris failed miserably.

Harris did propose some points worth considering, but he threw them out as red herrings to take things in a different direction, while appealing to emotions, adding cliches and name-calling at the same time. He was clearly losing, so he threw a red herring and tried to escape. He sets up a straw man.

His claim that God is evil because He doesn't intervene when there is suffering (if He has the power to do so) is an emotional appeal without reason. Allow me to reverse the question to gain a perspective on the absurdity of his statement. What would happen if God did intervene in every situation where there is suffering? And should He? What would the world be like if he did perform "miracles" in every case? Would that leave space for people to exercise their own free will and morality? In the majority of cases, people suffer and die through situations created by other people. Is God to blame for those people's actions?  Or the lack of action on behalf of others that should be intervening? People should be doing what they can to alleviate the suffering. Why? Because we have an objective morality that has its origins in a good God. Not only that, but God chooses to work through people. We are the "body of Christ", his agents in the world. It's our own immorality and inaction that should be taking the blame here, not an "evil" God.

Moving on to natural disasters. That's a difficult one, but you could (if you didn't want to expend effort) say it's the result of man's disobedience. The world itself became "broken" with the fall of man. But that's a bit of a cop-out. So I'll add some "meat" to the discussion. It's very relevant to the concept of intelligibility of the universe and the reliability of the natural laws. If someone someone jumps off a cliff and expects God to save Him, is that rational? If someone build their house on a fault line, knowing there are regular quakes that happen there every year, is God to blame when the house falls down? Natural disasters are the consequence of the laws of nature functioning unimpeded. It's very likely that God has in fact prevented many such disasters from happening through direct influence, but then there's no way of knowing this, is there? And where do you draw the line of "interacting"? You want the laws of nature to be consistent so you can understand and make sense of the universe (and do SCIENCE!), then you want God to jump in and intervene whenever it's convenient to you?

That's just one of the items on the site, the one that drew my attention most clearly. I certainly don't have the time to go through all of them.

For the Harris and WLC debate, I will be honest and admit that even though I have watched quite a few of Harris' other debates as well as WLC's debates, I have not watched this one.  I will need to either find 2 free hours (probably not happening over Thanksgiving weekend) or find a text version of the debate that I can pick through.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Harris strayed quite a bit, as he does that sometimes, but I will still try to address your points.

While I will agree that most harm, death, and disease perpetuated in the world is due to an individual's own actions or someone else's actions towards that individual, that still doesn't absolve a supposedly almighty God of the others.  If a 2 year child develops a brain tumor, wouldn't a loving God want to save that child, especially if this tumor developed 1000 years ago when it wasn't possible for God to "work though" modern medicine and surgeons?  It certainly is not impeding that child's free will nor is it an amoral decision, because I am pretty sure that Muslims, Christians, atheists, or Buddhists would agree that it would be the "right" thing to do. 

You could say the same about natural disasters, as there are very few areas of the globe that are not subject to deadly natural disasters of some kind, which from your response seems to be your reasoning behind the loss of life from them.  If God instructs his people to be fruitful and multiply, but supposedly doesn't want them to settle in places where they could be subject to death from natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes/monsoons, tornadoes, and volcanic eruptions, where were they supposed to go?  Even disregarding that, your statement that the earth "broke" with the fall of man is inconsistent with the fossil record, the archaeological record, and the sedimentary record.  The earth has had these disasters as far back as we can go, which would mean that the fall of man would've happened billions of years ago, which is simply not possible.  I honestly am intrigued and wonder how you reconcile what we are able to find in the fossil record as well as the sedimentary record with your belief that these things only happened because a woman ate a fruit she wasn't supposed to because a talking snake told her to and then lied about it.
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #134 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 11:53:47 »
Oh wow, sorry for the wall of text, I should really learn to format better.
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Offline neverused

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #135 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 15:56:40 »
I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and was one for 23 years (0-23). I did almost everything a young man could within the organization, I was a full-time minister, went on special assignments, worked at the world headquarters, was a 'ministerial servant' by 19 (a deacon in other religions), and was considered an example in most of the local congregations (church grouos). Then one day I left and never returned. I had come to the realization that I was doing all of this out of a sense of duty and obligation, that it was the "right thing to do." I had no personal relationship with any god and was acting out of rote repetition. 

I cannot conclusively say that there is no God or gods, but I have yet to see objective evidence of such. Yes you can point to the complexity of design in nature, but all that really shows is that we don't understand everything. It does not prove out a god. It does show that the design in question simply survived long enough to be recognized. How many more mutations/changes/iterations did not survive or were viable? Complexity in nature is just as easily a testament to the lengths to which life will go in order to survive, not does not mean that a god had to create it.

Humans are inherently scared of the unknown. Other than pain, I cannot think of many other things that we as a species fear more. And so, we rationalize and justify things we cannot explain. Thor the God of thunder is no less reasonable than the Christian God, if anything there is more attributable evidence to his existence than that of Christianity's diety. Yet, many would scoff at the idea of a god of thunder and would prefer to explain thunder by means of scientific research and evidence. In much the same way, I refuse to fill a knowledge gap with the convenience of a diety. It is ignorant to put faith in something simply because you believe it has to be a certain way. However ignorance is bliss for some and for a short period of time, though it will always end badly. Science lies on the boundary of ignorance and discovery. The sooner that we as humans accept that the unknown should not be feared and should be challenged, the sooner we can improve as a species from a bunch of squabbling creatures arguing over our own justification for life to a species to be proud of that is scientifically minded, not clouded by intangible faith.

It's unfortunate that so many times religion plays to our own egos and desire to be more than the surviving amalgamation of star dust that we are. For example, the Bible claims we were made in God's image and then proceeds to explain man's fall from perfection. It neatly elevates man's potential and quickly explains away evil as the product of another being with free will. Likewise the piety imposed on people meant times engenders an unwarranted sense of superiority, looking down on the unbeliever. This is not always the case but is frequently enough that no one reading this can ignore the prevalence of that attitude. Lastly, especially for many Christian denominations (and other religions), there is a reward for adherence and obedience. How unfortunate that so many need to have the proverbial carrot dangled in front of them in order to encourage kindness and cooperation, even in small groups. Still then,  religion remains a dividing force amongst men. One group is going to heaven or wherever and the rest are not, but until then it breeds hate until someone dies.

Religion may have had its place to help unite small groups under a commonality, but in this day and age it does little good that could not be completely offset by science and the earnest pursuit of knowledge.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #136 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 06:46:27 »
.  If you can validate the information from someone that is not a part of your religious group, especially for things related to the resurrection of your savior,  it makes that information much stronger to others.



I, also, think the documentation for the resurrection would be stronger if it were corroborated by more secular sources. The problem is that as when someone offers strong evidence supporting any claim, they are likely inclined to believe it, and that necessarily makes them suspect. 

"I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 
      "You say that because you're a Christian."

"I believe that late term abortion is immoral." 
      "You say that because you're an ethicist."

"I believe that 2+2=4."
      "You say that because you're a mathematician."

I know that my examples above aren't exactly apples to apples, but disregarding the message solely because the messenger actually believes what he's testifying to or because he's expert in that field, isn't honest inquiry. You can recognize inherent biases that can weaken an argument, but to disqualify them is very limiting to investigation.


On another subject, I'm interested in what way turning from belief in God has enriched your lives and if there has been any negative results for it.. This question is directed to Waateva and neverused, primarily but is open to anyone. This is not a trick question. I believe you've both have commented sincerely about your experiences and I want to understand your perspectives more fully.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #137 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 09:06:22 »

I'm interested in what way turning from belief in God has enriched your lives and if there has been any negative results for it..


I was not planning to participate in this conversation any more, but I will speak to this.

Going back to the original "morality story" (which stories pro-religionists probably consider the heart and soul of religion, anyway) the Garden of Eden, where the opposing deities were persuading the human players about the "tree of knowledge" the bible presents the "good" one as saying "don't eat" and the "bad" one as saying "do eat" and that the moral of the story is: obedience. But in my opinion, the respective deities are presented precisely backwards. Why would God give man intelligence and then order him not to use it? 

When you think about this parable, you recognize that it is about obedience, pure and simple. Why? Who are you obeying? Once the God-concept is factored out, this is a powerful mechanism to train people to obey: but to obey whom?

The authors of this system of thought, of course, who have an agenda of their own.

Just as climate-denying today is merely a smoke screen fabricated by the fossil-fuel industry to conceal their selfish desires, so these fables are designed to create an environment of fear and subjugation. And it continues in other forms: just as today, ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend") so as long as the ultra-wealthy can induce the ignorant to vote for their lackeys, Republican politicians, with bogus non-related issues like immigration, abortion, gun control, gay rights, etc, they can ensure that their real goal is accomplished: no taxes on wealth.

What were the ancient Hebrews seeking with this religious law system? They achieved absolute power over their subjects, the real goal of the process.
Over time, they developed a system of how every aspect of life was to be lived. The "Jewish ideal" pretty much did away with free will.

The old joke Q:"What is the duty of the laity to the clergy?" A:"To pay, pray, and obey."

When I recognized the bizarre and ugly society that had grown from a system of obeying rather than thinking, I was appalled and terrified.

"Turning from belief in God has enriched" my life beyond measure and was the most liberating thing (spiritually, intellectually, and emotionally) that has ever happened to me.

There have been negative results from it: my search for truth has caused me great pain in many human interactions, because non-believers are shunned and scorned by a significant portion of Western (and particularly US) society. My Christian upbringing taught me to "stand strong for what is right and don't let the evil ones wear you down" which I continue to do, but now I am able to recognize that the lines have shifted and I can see that many of the people in this country pushing "Christian values" in politics are some of the most evil members of our society.
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 November 2015, 09:09:34 by fohat.digs »
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Offline njbair

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #138 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 12:11:17 »

I'm interested in what way turning from belief in God has enriched your lives and if there has been any negative results for it..


I was not planning to participate in this conversation any more, but I will speak to this.

Going back to the original "morality story" (which stories pro-religionists probably consider the heart and soul of religion, anyway) the Garden of Eden, where the opposing deities were persuading the human players about the "tree of knowledge" the bible presents the "good" one as saying "don't eat" and the "bad" one as saying "do eat" and that the moral of the story is: obedience. But in my opinion, the respective deities are presented precisely backwards. Why would God give man intelligence and then order him not to use it? 

When you think about this parable, you recognize that it is about obedience, pure and simple. Why? Who are you obeying? Once the God-concept is factored out, this is a powerful mechanism to train people to obey: but to obey whom?

The authors of this system of thought, of course, who have an agenda of their own.

Just as climate-denying today is merely a smoke screen fabricated by the fossil-fuel industry to conceal their selfish desires, so these fables are designed to create an environment of fear and subjugation. And it continues in other forms: just as today, ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend") so as long as the ultra-wealthy can induce the ignorant to vote for their lackeys, Republican politicians, with bogus non-related issues like immigration, abortion, gun control, gay rights, etc, they can ensure that their real goal is accomplished: no taxes on wealth.

What were the ancient Hebrews seeking with this religious law system? They achieved absolute power over their subjects, the real goal of the process.
Over time, they developed a system of how every aspect of life was to be lived. The "Jewish ideal" pretty much did away with free will.

The old joke Q:"What is the duty of the laity to the clergy?" A:"To pay, pray, and obey."

When I recognized the bizarre and ugly society that had grown from a system of obeying rather than thinking, I was appalled and terrified.

"Turning from belief in God has enriched" my life beyond measure and was the most liberating thing (spiritually, intellectually, and emotionally) that has ever happened to me.

There have been negative results from it: my search for truth has caused me great pain in many human interactions, because non-believers are shunned and scorned by a significant portion of Western (and particularly US) society. My Christian upbringing taught me to "stand strong for what is right and don't let the evil ones wear you down" which I continue to do, but now I am able to recognize that the lines have shifted and I can see that many of the people in this country pushing "Christian values" in politics are some of the most evil members of our society.
The "heart and soul" of Christianity as it pertains to Genesis 3 (the fall of man) is not obedience, but the simple truth that, given the choice, man will always put his own interests before God's. Even the manner in which we choose to employ our intelligence will always be selfish, or at least man-centered. This is the core lesson of the Mosaic law--it provided a way for man to once again walk with God, although temporarily and by means of atonement via the sacrificial system. But it also provided proof that we are incapable of God's holiness and unworthy of his presence. The law itself recognized the shortcomings of the sacrificial system and promised a better atonement, in the form of the Messiah.

Jesus was the Messiah which the law promised. He sacrificed his life to atone for all the sin of man, which he was able to do because he was both fully man and fully God, and he lived a completely holy life, free of sin; the perfect, unblemished sacrifice.

Unfortunately, the Jewish polity feared Jesus' message because it threatened their power and status, which they only had in the first place because of their own corruption and perversion of the law. That's why they led the charge to have Jesus executed. Interestingly, even the secular Roman government did not want to have him killed. They caved to the tremendous popular pressure from the Hebrews.

Peter confirmed this when he delivered the first sermon of the church age in Acts 2, accusing the Jews as the ones who crucified the Messiah in verse 36.

So, it was man's pride that separated us from God in the first place, and that same pride which unjustly murdered the one whom God sent to save us. Good foreknew all of this, and yet still sent him to die so that by his sacrifice man would be reconciled to God. That profound truth is the only choice of God's that really makes me wonder "why."

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #139 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 12:34:36 »

man will always put his own interests before God's


Why would the Creator and Sovereign of the universe have interests at all?

Arguments like these make me think of an ant farm and a cruel child who delights in torturing his subjects.

The traditional Abrahamic God is too cruel and mean-spirited for me to worship, even if I did believe in Him.

The strident insistence of the Jews/Christians/Mohammedans in general and ISIS in particular that man's universal duty is "submission" to their particular deity is perhaps the most horrifying concept that the human race has ever dreamed up.

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Offline njbair

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #140 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 12:52:42 »



man will always put his own interests before God's


Why would the Creator and Sovereign of the universe have interests at all?

Arguments like these make me think of an ant farm and a cruel child who delights in torturing his subjects.

The traditional Abrahamic God is too cruel and mean-spirited for me to worship, even if I did believe in Him.

The strident insistence of the Jews/Christians/Mohammedans in general and ISIS in particular that man's universal duty is "submission" to their particular deity is perhaps the most horrifying concept that the human race has ever dreamed up.

Have you ever created anything you didn't have interest in? If not, why bother creating it?

I've heard the ant analogy before but I can't really relate because I've never created ants. I suppose if I had, I would value them as my own creation, and if some of them turned against the others and started causing them harm, I would destroy the rebellious ones to preserve the whole, out of love for the thing I created. Maybe that would seem cruel to the rebellious ants, because who is this guy to tell me what to do? But it's not their place to question me, the creator, since I define the parameters.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #141 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 13:40:26 »
I would like to thank fohat.digs for coming out of his "Religion Therapy" retirement to respond to my question. We may disagree about several things but nobody can question a person's personal experiences.

Just one more question. Do you think that if the people who call themselves followers of Christ really did walk their talk, that is, if they really were changed inside and then lived out their beliefs, would you have had a different perspective?  Again, I'm not trying to set anyone up. I just am trying to more clearly understand your perspective.

Offline baldgye

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 16:46:53 »
Kurpop I feel like that question has been answered by hundreds of catholic priests all around the world :))

Offline Parak

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 19:26:59 »
Just one more question. Do you think that if the people who call themselves followers of Christ really did walk their talk, that is, if they really were changed inside and then lived out their beliefs, would you have had a different perspective?  Again, I'm not trying to set anyone up. I just am trying to more clearly understand your perspective.

I'm no fohat, but I'll wedge in my own 2c:

While behaviors of a religion's followers definitely plays a not so insignificant part on how I view religion in general, it ultimately does not matter too much. For example, I see Sikhism or Jainism as being more admirable than Christianity both in terms of followers and teachings, but I'm certainly not going to run and convert to them due to a plethora of other deity belief related reasoning and such.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 19:53:44 »

the people who call themselves followers of Christ


Just as the burden of proof for the existence of God falls on those who put forward the theory of his existence, there are burdens to be carried by groups as a whole for actions of their subsets, when their behaviors are accepted, either explicitly or implicitly.

Why aren't (those who I would describe as the "real") Christians standing on soapboxes and TV stations everywhere denouncing the hateful selfish bloodthirsty Republican politicians who rant about in favor of behaviors that Jesus would surely have abhorred?

Likewise, why aren't "moderate" Muslims worldwide screaming their protests (and cutting off their contributions to) to the actions of ISIS and the like?

To quote the old hippie slogan, "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

Where is the powerful backlash of "the people who call themselves followers of Christ" against those who preach selfishness and hatred?

Until "the people who call themselves followers of Christ" stop voting for evil politicians, I will feel compelled to paint them all with the same brush.

Again, the simple first step is the one put forward by Madison, Adams, Jefferson, and Washington: the complete separation of Church and State.
"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
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Offline Waateva

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1782
  • Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 22:38:02 »
.  If you can validate the information from someone that is not a part of your religious group, especially for things related to the resurrection of your savior,  it makes that information much stronger to others.


On another subject, I'm interested in what way turning from belief in God has enriched your lives and if there has been any negative results for it.. This question is directed to Waateva and neverused, primarily but is open to anyone. This is not a trick question. I believe you've both have commented sincerely about your experiences and I want to understand your perspectives more fully.

Well, to be honest, it has only been in the last 2-3 years that I feel like I have finally became free, in a sense.  You see, growing up I never quite felt like I fit in with the Evangelical Christians that I knew and while I could identify with the ideas of Christ at the time I still felt what I personally was seeing and experiencing was taking things a little far.  The speaking in tongues and translations of what was said in tongues, the church services running anywhere from 2 to 10 hours long, the people falling down around me all the damn time, praying and thanking God for almost everything, I mean it felt like the good ideas of Christ had run wild.  You also had the pretty extreme views, such as the pastor proclaiming after 9/11 that he was jealous of the fervor of the Muslims, or that homosexuals will totally rape you if you are with them alone, or that smoking pot was comparable to shooting heroin or smoking crack and so on.  I felt like I was being coerced into a different version of Christianity that I read about in the bible but went along with it because, what am I going to do, move out of my parents house at 10 years old?

So then I start to question things quietly and to myself when I get into high school and start doing research using both Christian sources and non-Christian sources to try and get a better understanding of things, but I was hit with a feeling of both excitement and freedom but also guilt and dread.  I was so excited to be putting things together for myself but felt dirty and sinful when I found an answer that didn't line up with what I was raised on or even with Christianity in general, because "backsliders" are a special class of people in Christianity.  Depending on your denomination of Christianity, if you are a backslider you might go to heaven or you might go to hell if you die, but you can never really be sure so your saved status is in question so that was always in the back of my mind.  This continued even until my early 20s where I didn't consider myself a Christian at all but still worried that if I died, I might be going to burn in hell for-ev-er.

Now I honestly feel like a much happier and free person.  I think that the chances of their being an afterlife is nill and that even if there was I would have no idea which of the thousands of the religions on this planet hold the keys to getting there, that's if the correct religion or path is even known to us as it could be located on a rock 100 light years away.  This idea has made me relish the time that I have on this planet, as this is my one shot to make a difference and enjoy my life.  I will admit that I do occasionally miss some of the community sense from going to church and meeting with people a couple times a week, but this feeling is definitely a minority in my life as even when I went to church I preferred to stay with a smaller group.  I get to enjoy the time I spend with my family and friends, but also get to help my fellow man honestly with no strings attached; no proselytizing, no saving people, no bull****.

Of course, my decisions have not resulted in all positive results.  I still live in West Michigan, and I am not "out" about my faith or lack thereof besides with a handful of people.  I wouldn't try to compare this to the pain of coming out as gay or something like that, but I do know if more people were to know it would not be a positive.  I work with family and that family is religious to the point of laying hands on clients for sickness and other things (with their permission of course) during appointments, and a large amount of the client base is tied closely with the business so the gossip train would be quickly leaving the station.  While I don't think the business would lose the clients, I think I personally would lose quite a few if people were to find out about my godless beliefs.  It also has strained some relationships with family members who have started to piece things together to a point, as they don't "want to be unevenly yoked" with an unbeliever which is fine with me.  If petty differences that are rarely discussed cause that much of an issue I'm not entirely interested in socializing with you either, especially since I see this as my one life to live and therefore, I don't have the time to waste dealing with silly bickering.

I'd like to also say that I really don't feel like I hold any ill will against Christians, I frankly am just sick of hearing about their qualms.  The cries that the sky is falling for a new reason every 10 years has been going on for the last 2000 years and I have just ran out of ****s to give.  I do know a lot of Christians that I interact with frequently and they are really good people, my parents being in that group, but I feel like they could be so much more if they stopped seeing everything through the lens of the church and Christianity and used their own eyes to look at this world.

I would like to thank fohat.digs for coming out of his "Religion Therapy" retirement to respond to my question. We may disagree about several things but nobody can question a person's personal experiences.

Just one more question. Do you think that if the people who call themselves followers of Christ really did walk their talk, that is, if they really were changed inside and then lived out their beliefs, would you have had a different perspective?  Again, I'm not trying to set anyone up. I just am trying to more clearly understand your perspective.


I used to think that could have altered my perspective, but as I get older I realize that while the followers certainly influenced my opinions years ago, I now am comfortable with the belief that any group can have extremists so judging the group primarily based on its followers is not fair.  You need to judge everything involved with that religion or belief structure separately while also considering it as a whole, because if your religion is supposedly all about peace but your followers never are, something is wrong.  Personally, I dislike the conversion aspect of Christianity as well as the pretty standard belief among religions that they are the ones who finally figured it all out, so follow their specific steps to get your golden ticket into the next life.
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Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 26 November 2015, 23:22:29 »
Fohat.digs,

I'd like to tip my hand so that you can know some of my background. You may use it to attack my position or as a means to understand my perspective.
Sometime just before the first Gulf War, I became a fan of conservative talk radio. In its early days, I thought that it provided an outlet to balance the progressive reporting of the news and corresponding opinions of the day. I had little interest in politics before then and I admit I embraced most of the ideals championed there. Around the end of President Clintons 2nd term I was seasoned enough politically to realize that although I still considered my ideals aligned with conservatives, I became disillusioned with the corruption and deceit on both sides of the aisle. I also began to realize that, although people may have wildly different ideas about how a government should function and how much it should be involved in the affairs of its constituents, neither left or right had a monopoly on either virtue or reprobation.

One may critique another's actions, but making assumptions about their motives is probably unwise. Oftentimes I'm motivated by several impulses and sentiments, often at the same time and it's not always clear to me why I take certain actions. How can I fairly judge another's motives?   

I think we should also be cautious about assuming that all people will have the same capacity to understand complex subjects or the same resources to defend them. I personally don't have a taste for most activism, or at least the way it is displayed with loud mouthed spokespeople spewing out exaggerated, one sided, half-truths that divide rather than unite. I'm not even a big fan of adversarial argument, where either side is unwilling to admit or concede any point, because the goal isn't about finding truth, it's about winning.

Making judgements about groups of individuals or individuals in groups has its dangers as well. Depending on its object, it frequently has negative names attached to it. Racist, bigot, homophobe, xenophobe, to name a few.   On the subject of politics, I'm still conservative. I'm also disturbed by some of the Republican frontrunners and speak out to those in my sphere about my concerns. I don't have a voice to be heard much farther. I don't think I'd consider a Democratic alternative for several reasons, mainly because I think they also sink to the lowest level pandering for votes, and I'm already concerned about the level of collectivism  in our country.

On the issue of Church and State. My faith is my worldview. If I'm not allowed to use my convictions when I cast my ballot, or try to persuade another, then we have discriminated against religion. In essence, I've lost my right to vote. The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...I think a lot of people forget the last part. There is a difference between a Church state, which I would fight along side you to prevent, and the free exercise of people using their conscience in the ballot box.

. I have heard you state several times your position on abortion rights. You mentioned something that I had reasoned through about 20 years ago. You made a comment about when it's reasonable to assume the earliest that life could start. You reasoned that without a functioning heart and brain activity how could you have life. (I hope I'm representing your position somewhat accurately, if not feel free to correct.)  I can see merit in that position. After all, when does the coroner pronounce someone dead and without physical life? Would I be for abortions before that time? Not personally, but I think it is still a valid and honestly appraised point. I'm hesitant to allow abortions after conception for the same reason I wouldn't fire a rifle in the air in the city. The bullet may not kill anyone but it's still a risk that my conscience isn't willing to accept.

I brought this up as an illustration. You're pro-choice, I'm pro-life. That doesn't mean that we can't work together to at being against partial birth abortions. I would agree not to fight to restrict early term abortions unless the day comes when an overwhelming majority of the public wants it and you could safely concede that ending the life of a half born child is wrong without the fear of a slippery slope. The extreme polarization in our country is destroying what I believe was once good and I believe that finding common ground is a step toward tearing down the walls that divide us.

 Hey, do you remember the song Reach out in the Darkness by Friend and Lover?

"I knew a man that I did not care for
and then one day this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
and now this man, he is a friend of mine."

Pretty groovy huh? It's your fault, you brought up hippies.


Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #147 on: Fri, 27 November 2015, 00:25:05 »
Waateva,

I enjoyed your summary of your journey through and from faith. I've been to a few of those "speaking in tongues" meetings and I found them a bit unsettling too. I honestly don't know what to think of them. I also am concerned about the absolute statements made about things that may be a bit grayer than a quick glance may suggest. Your writing makes it apparent that you are very insightful. I'm curious about your age.

Something important to remember is that not all people have the depth that you seem to have both intellectually and in your awareness of things. Combined with that, you seem like a nice guy. I've had the privilege of being at a Church that is very close to an Evangelical Seminary and as a result we have several professors at my Church that help keep the standard of intellectual honesty high. Along with that, while we have our share of bad apples, overall I've been impressed with the integrity and love displayed by our members. I guess that's why I'm so interested in how other Christians behavior has affected your perspective.

I wouldn't be comfortable with the overt public praying and laying on of hands either. Not that I necessarily am against it but I'm more reserve and assume others wouldn't want the spectacle either. Also I've heard on good authority that you get good results by "going into a closet and praying in secret".

I would be dishonest if I said I'm not concerned that you left the faith but I do believe your honest contemplations will take you to the right place. Belief  is a funny thing. Do you believe because you want to or do you believe because you're convinced in the veracity of the claims first? Who knows?


Offline neverused

  • Posts: 572
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #148 on: Fri, 27 November 2015, 01:57:15 »


On another subject, I'm interested in what way turning from belief in God has enriched your lives and if there has been any negative results for it.. This question is directed to Waateva and neverused, primarily but is open to anyone. This is not a trick question. I believe you've both have commented sincerely about your experiences and I want to understand your perspectives more fully.

To answer your question directly, I have a hard time saying that I completely turned away from belief in god, simply because I never felt that necessary component of a personal relationship with any deity.  I certainly tried too, I threw myself into studies of the Bible, ministry work, giving talks (sermons), prayer, etc.  The problem was that I knew exactly what was expected of me and could do it without any issue.  I even think that many of the tenets of the faith and the way that many true Christians live their lives is a a good model to follow.  However, I never felt that personal attachment, I was doing it because I was supposed to.  So I stopped.  It did not immediately enrich my life either.  I did not speak to my parents for at 3 years, all through marrying my wife, the birth of our first child and her first year of life.  I tried to include them, invited them to the wedding and made sure that they knew my wife was pregnant, and nothing.  In recent times, they have come around and met their grandchildren and daughter in law, but for so long they shunned me because I walked away.  To this day, I have a grandmother and aunts/uncles that will not speak to me because of this.  So too, many of the people that I counted as my friends have never spoken to me again.  In a matter of speaking, my life was not enriched, it was strained quite a bit.  However, I regret not taking action sooner.  Leaving the church as I have has allowed me to come to terms with the fact that faith in an omnipotent and omniscient being that created all things, may or may not intervene in life, and still has yet not corrected all the injustices in the world, that faith is not something that I would want even if I could have it.  I no longer feel the need to force a feeling that I never had, instead I feel much more at peace acknowledging my own ignorance and relying on science to seek out verifiable answers. 

To sum up that lengthy answer, I am more free to find a reasonable explanation to what I see around me and to be at peace with the fact that the unknown is a good thing, something to be searched out.  My choice has had many negative consequences to me, but not because of a lack on my part, rather it has been at the hands of others and their reaction to my choice that has had the most negative effect.



I would like to thank fohat.digs for coming out of his "Religion Therapy" retirement to respond to my question. We may disagree about several things but nobody can question a person's personal experiences.

Just one more question. Do you think that if the people who call themselves followers of Christ really did walk their talk, that is, if they really were changed inside and then lived out their beliefs, would you have had a different perspective?  Again, I'm not trying to set anyone up. I just am trying to more clearly understand your perspective.

I believe that on a whole, Jehovah's Witnesses certainly "walk the walk" and live out their beliefs, regardless of your opinion of them.  With that said, I admire conviction and think the fact that they follow only the Bible and not the collaborative religious mingling that is most other Christians denominations to be commendable.  I don't particularly find the Bible to be necessary in my life, but for a people that claim to follow it, they do it rather dogmatically.  This is to the point that they remain politically neutral and do not support anything other than their god's kingdom or government.  This truly does make them a united people.  While that makes for a nice fuzzy feeling amongst one another, it also results in the treatment I referred to above. 

Conversely, I have no respect for denominations of Christianity that have adopted what they would call pagan rituals into their teachings or compromise on basic ideas.  For example, as much as people don't like to hear it, Christmas is a derivative of Saturnalia and not based on any Christian teaching.  I don't care about the validity of their teachings, but it should not waiver based on convenience o emotion.

With all of that said, I think that simply "walking the walk" is not enough, rather considering the impact of that way of life and those teachings is necessary.  Adherence to a religion, which is ever more an increasingly archaic coping mechanism to help deal with what we don't know, is not something to be desired, rather it should be challenged and proven out, not blind and automatic.

Offline My_Thoughts

  • Posts: 208
  • Location: Scotland
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #149 on: Fri, 27 November 2015, 04:49:57 »
...

And you are presenting this as something above and beyond coincidence, speculation, and story-telling?

Sorry, there is zero there that interests me.

It's evidence. How you interpret it is entirely up to you.

" We have plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence." - Lionel Hutz