Author Topic: Who owns a colorway?  (Read 67614 times)

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Offline Niomosy

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Who owns a colorway?
« on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 20:02:48 »
Thanks for the update.

Could you please explain why PuLSE is listed as "ON HOLD" and Decked Out is not listed at all even though it ran before PuLSE?

"These keyset have not been approved for scheduling additional production runs."

Doesn't look like they'll be making more until they're allowed to do so (or have the resources to do so).

I'd like to get confirmation on something regarding that.  What happens if someone submits new paperwork / art for an existing colorway, naming it something else and either changing or eliminating novelties?

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 20:48:57 »
I'd like to get confirmation on something regarding that.  What happens if someone submits new paperwork / art for an existing colorway, naming it something else and either changing or eliminating novelties?

Since you mentioned I'd like to give my input towards this subject, even though you asked OP and not me.

Taking PuLSE as an example, it featured black/cyan text legended alphas and modifiers with Signature Plastics' font. It also featured aqua and blue novelty keycaps with specific and customized icons. Any other sets that eventually present any of the above mentioned features is essentially (and consequentially) copying PuLSE and the concepts that define it as a custom keyset created by myself and therefore should not go through their system nor be allowed to happen without my strict permission. The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created. This logic obviously can't be applied to complex industrial manufactured products, due to their very detailed patent registration nature, but since we are discussing about a product that is defined by it's artistic appeal and belongs to a very specific niche (keyboard enthusiasts), such logic could be easily comprehended and be applied in my perception.

This is my perspective and I believe it should be taken into consideration given that, for many reasons, me and the Ctrl.Alt team are in the eye of this discussion. Mostly due to the popularity of projects created by us before new implementations and policies from Signature Plastics took place.



Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 21:04:15 »
I'd like to get confirmation on something regarding that.  What happens if someone submits new paperwork / art for an existing colorway, naming it something else and either changing or eliminating novelties?

Since you mentioned I'd like to give my input towards this subject, even though you asked OP and not me.

Taking PuLSE as an example, it featured black/cyan text legended alphas and modifiers with Signature Plastics' font. It also featured aqua and blue novelty keycaps with specific and customized icons. Any other sets that eventually present any of the above mentioned features is essentially (and consequentially) copying PuLSE and the concepts that define it as a custom keyset created by myself and therefore should not go through their system nor be allowed to happen without my strict permission. The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created. This logic obviously can't be applied to complex industrial manufactured products, due to their very detailed patent registration nature, but since we are discussing about a product that is defined by it's artistic appeal and belongs to a very specific niche (keyboard enthusiasts), such logic could be easily comprehended and be applied in my perception.

This is my perspective and I believe it should be taken into consideration given that, for many reasons, me and the Ctrl.Alt team are in the eye of this discussion. Mostly due to the popularity of projects created by us before new implementations and policies from Signature Plastics took place.

You are so full of ****. Putting a couple colors together and using common, fairly derivative icons, and standard font, does not give you any authority over those concepts. You may feel entitled to Pulse, but beyond that you cannot legitimately take ownership of those colors used in conjunction. You used black and cyan? Big ****ing deal, so did every other set that used those colors, perhaps not exclusively, but they were used before. Did you ask everyone that had a black alpha or modifier in previous sets for permission? I assume not, because that would be retarded.

You didn't "create" anything, you matched colors and people liked it. Pulse is a nice looking set, but it is not art nor any sort of legitimate intellectual property. Get over yourself. That type of self entitled behavior is childish and arrogant.

Side note: your pulse icon looks like a QRS trace, did you ask for permission to use that? I doubt it, because no one ones the concept.

Second note: Tron (2010) made heavy use of black and cyan, did you ask Disney for permission? I doubt it, because that would be unreasonable.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 January 2016, 21:18:04 by neverused »

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 21:56:51 »

You used black and cyan? Big ****ing deal, so did every other set that used those colors, perhaps not exclusively, but they were used before. Did you ask everyone that had a black alpha or modifier in previous sets for permission? I assume not, because that would be retarded.


I never said that I own such colorway, please read my response more carefully and also watch your mouth since I never spoke with you before and I'm being civil. In response to your question, I'd definitely ask other Signature Plastics' designers for permission to use such color way, if any ever existed.


You didn't "create" anything, you matched colors and people liked it. Pulse is a nice looking set, but it is not art nor any sort of legitimate intellectual property. Get over yourself. That type of self entitled behavior is childish and arrogant.


I'd like to inform you, in case you didn't read such information anywhere before, that I personally dislike the keyset, it's colorway and its novelties. In retrospect, from my personal opinion and design experience I can honestly say (and already said it before) that the set could have used better ideas and in the end doesn't look that good. Please point to me where I was arrogant in my previous reply. If I sounded like that I apologize but it was never my intention and I'm not a native speaker.

However, despite of what you think I did create the set, since I spent many hours digitally painting a virtual keyboard layout and importing patially done sketched by hand drawings, to be used as novelty icons in the vector form. And according to my interpretation of the English language dictionary (below) what I did and what I do can be categorized as art, even though the set itself isn't my direct manual craft, but Signature Plastics'.

art; (noun)

1 - The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power;
2 - Works produced by human creative skill and imagination;

PuLSE was result of my creative skills and imagination.



Side note: your pulse icon looks like a QRS trace, did you ask for permission to use that? I doubt it, because no one ones the concept.


Such icon is a letter "M" meant to represent my nickname on this forum even though it resembles a QRS trace. It looks vibrant and full of energy, like myself, so I decided to name the set "PuLSE". The keyset was originally a personal print to be requested from WASD, but since others liked the idea I decided to develop it together with RMK and this community until it became a group buy. It's design went through many iterations, one of them featuring the Cherry Replica font which was discarded due to the steep price.


Second note: Tron (2010) made heavy use of black and cyan, did you ask Disney for permission? I doubt it, because that would be unreasonable.


Disney indeed used cyan and black in this beautiful movie, but again I never said that I own such color way or created it. I did however apply it to Signature Plastics' keycaps before anyone else. Below you can see highlighted exactly what I said on my reply:

The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created.



Offline Steezus

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 22:07:27 »
Edit: I have no need to get involved in drama
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 January 2016, 22:16:58 by Steezus »
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Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 22:55:42 »
Edit: I have no need to get involved in drama


Good.

MiTo handled his response quite well, there's no need to discuss any of it with you.


@MiTo - I stand by my opinion that no one should be able to pay claim to a colorway. You may have rights to the icons used, as you developed them, but the use of black and cyan should not be limited simply due to the fact that it is present in Pulse. Were someone to use the unique keys in the set without permission, that may be questionable if they are truly unique, but beyond that I do not see how anyone in good conscience lay claim to a colorway.


With respect to art,  I do not doubt that you spent many hours refining the set, but I do not consider it art. Many would choose to disagree with me and they certainly may do so, but art is subject to interpretation.


I do however apologize for my word choice. Perhaps it was colored by irritation towards the concept of owning a colorway or the general impression I have developed in seeing your posts in the past, but I did not need to express myself that way. I do not agree with anyone laying claim to an aesthetically pleasing color scheme nor the concept that certain sets must be under scrutiny because of its color choice (siso and dusk are prime examples). This mindset is pervasive and undermining to the development and proposal of other sets in the future.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 00:32:13 »
I'm simply we can get an answer to the question :)
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 January 2016, 00:44:38 by Niomosy »

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 11:52:09 »
In the United States, where SP is located, there is no legal protection for a colorway. It does not fall under copyright, trademark, or patent. I guarantee you that no court in the US would hear a case involving another black/cyan colorway as IP infringement. The novelty icons are (potentially) a different matter, but I don't think anyone would copy those and try to get away with it.

Having said all that, SP can elect to enforce their own IP protection policies, completely independent of what formal IP law has to say about it. They simply reject any proposed project that violates their own sense of fairness to previous/existing designers who have worked with them. They may also reject any project that has graphics which they deem too close in appearance to known trademarks (a bat logo, for instance).

MiTo wouldn't receive US copyright protection for his keycap designs if he claimed it in court, but he doesn't need it. SP will provide a good enough equivalent, and there's not much anyone can do about that except try to persuade Melissa to change the company policies. Good luck with that.

Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 11:57:22 »
SP does what is in their best interest, which is what I would expect any other company to do. If that means catering to diva keyset designers (not naming names or pointing to anyone in particular before someone gets butt hurt), then so be it.

Barring a company refusing a colorway, which is their prerogative, there should be no expectation of exclusivity for any colorway. If people don't like it, don't buy it, but no one owns it.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:21:33 »
There should be no expectation of colorway ownership from a legal sense, no. However, there are expectations of de facto ownership endowed by the mech keyboard/custom keycap culture cultivated by this community. If someone were to post an interest check for a keycap design too close in appearance to PuLSE, it wouldn't be the court of law that would step in, but the court of public ridicule within this community (and then SP themselves, if it ever got that far).

MiTo's sense of entitlement is endorsed by nearly everyone on GH, DT, and /r/mech. That's an awful lot of positive reinforcement. Keycap designers are treated a little bit like rock stars around here, and they're allowed to get away with being a diva now and then. Like you, I think it is mostly nonsense, but we're vastly outnumbered by the legions who built this community into what it is.

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:23:27 »
MiTo's sense of entitlement is endorsed by nearly everyone on GH, DT, and /r/mech.

Wasn't he basically run out of GH for this (among other things)?

Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:24:53 »
MiTo's sense of entitlement is endorsed by nearly everyone on GH, DT, and /r/mech.

Wasn't he basically run out of GH for this (among other things)?
Yeah he made a bug huge deal about it, said goodbye, and then came back.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:33:13 »
MiTo's sense of entitlement is endorsed by nearly everyone on GH, DT, and /r/mech.

Wasn't he basically run out of GH for this (among other things)?

MiTo, the individual, may have had a tumultuous relationship with this community, but his perspective on colorway/design ownership, no matter how obnoxiously defended, is nevertheless the community norm.

Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:33:59 »
MiTo's sense of entitlement is endorsed by nearly everyone on GH, DT, and /r/mech.

Wasn't he basically run out of GH for this (among other things)?

MiTo, the individual, may have had a tumultuous relationship with this community, but his perspective on colorway/design ownership, no matter how obnoxiously defended, is nevertheless the community norm.
Which is unfortunate in my opinion.

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:36:13 »
If anyone here is interested in knowing the story behind my decision to quit and my decision to return to the keyboard communities, I'd like to kindly ask you to speak directly with me in private. I never ignored anyone and I'm always open to a conversation. Don't act like you know everything and don't act like you know me or have spoken with me in the past if you really didn't. There are lots of misinformation going around, not only here in this thread/community, and such happenings hurt and deviate from the main topic of discussion. This is already going on in this particular thread and such replies have already been reported.

This reply of mine is not directed to any particular individuals, but to everyone in this forum who will eventually read this reply and the entire thread.



Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:40:53 »
Discussion regarding ownership or control of a colorway are relevant to a tracking system for colorways and their release. Discussion of your history with the community is not, though it is tied to subject there isn't much value in discussing it. All one has to do is search on the forums.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:47:58 »
I agree. What is past is merely prologue. I'm not the least bit interested in all that past drama.

However, here we are, and the same issues continue to provoke debate, namely, who "owns" a colorway and should that even be allowed/tolerated? Does it make sense? Why or why not?

I don't feel colorways ought to be "protectable", nor do I feel the community ought to promote the idea that picking colors constitutes a work of art, or even a challenging design effort in and of itself. The fact that the weight of (community) history is behind such a perspective doesn't persuade me of its merit. Rather, in this case I think the community got it wrong. But lobbying for change around here is like shouting at a hurricane.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 00:39:53 »
If colorways are somehow protected, what's the limitations on that?  Multiple existing sets have been reproduced; Space Cadet twice, Commodore 64 via DSA Retro, Selectric, Dolch in its various iterations, and probably others.
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2016, 00:47:15 by Niomosy »

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 01:03:31 »
Indeed. The issue is murky at best.

For instance, I doubt SP is going to extend prior art consideration to Tom Knight (original designer of the Space Cadet keyboard), or defunct companies like Commodore or Dolch. Since these designs are inherited from history, in a sense, SP seems content to treat them like public domain works.

However, when SP has an existing working relationship with a contemporary designer, they are clearly willing to extend a form of IP ownership to them as a "good faith" gesture. At least as long as that relationship remains a cordial and healthy one. It may even be written into the contracts for designs sold through PMK, I don't really know.

I think we'll need a test case stronger than, say, Think Different to really give us a clearer picture of what the possibilities are.

Offline neverused

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 15:30:37 »
Just to beat a dead horse some more, if anyone has any questions about why I was so irritated about MiTo's initial reply, please see the following examples of him throwing a tantrum about Classic Space, because he 'could not allow' it to happen after all the work he put into Cospar. It is this type of entitlement that I can't stand. At the time that he threw a fit and threatened to take action (whatever that was), Cospar was cancelled and Classic Space was similar but still not the same.

By MiTo's logic, one could simply design a group of sets that would encompass most colorways and slap some custom icons on it and then claim origination and control of the colorway. Someone should really do that quick so that they can have a monopoly on all sets through SP.


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74350.msg1833485.msg#1833485

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74350.msg1833543.msg#1833543

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74350.msg1833665.msg#1833665
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2016, 15:32:39 by neverused »

Offline user 18

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 18:33:54 »
This line of conversation has been split from New Launchpad & Status Page as it was off-topic for that thread.

While the question of who owns a colourway, and how protectable that colourway may be is an interesting one, I ask that we please keep the discussion about colourways, rather than individuals. Please remember that personal attacks are against the geekhack terms of service.
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Offline PunksDead

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:14:32 »
MITO nor signature plastcs ever trademarked the colorways. remember how tao hai gratuitously ripped off ctrlalt.ios colors in their "new" keysets? no trademarks filed for a particular colorway means its fair game

mod edit: removed personal attack
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:54:40 by user 18 »
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Offline azhdar

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:27:49 »
If anyone here is interested in knowing the story behind my decision to quit and my decision to return to the keyboard communities, I'd like to kindly ask you to speak directly with me in private. I never ignored anyone and I'm always open to a conversation. Don't act like you know everything and don't act like you know me or have spoken with me in the past if you really didn't. There are lots of misinformation going around, not only here in this thread/community, and such happenings hurt and deviate from the main topic of discussion. This is already going on in this particular thread and such replies have already been reported.

This reply of mine is not directed to any particular individuals, but to everyone in this forum who will eventually read this reply and the entire thread.

open to a conversation


open to a conversation

open to a conversation

open to a conversation

topest kek. You were indeed trully open to a conversation last time we exchanged pms.

Offline PunksDead

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:32:28 »
MITO nor signature plastcs ever trademarked the colorways. remember how tao hai gratuitously ripped off ctrlalt.ios colors in their "new" keysets? no trademarks filed for a particular colorway means its fair game

mod edit: removed personal attack

I don't approve this mod edit as there were no personal attacks

I would like to speak with the council on this matter
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Offline lucaslink

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:42:51 »
However, despite of what you think I did create the set, since I spent many hours digitally painting a virtual keyboard layout and importing patially done sketched by hand drawings, to be used as novelty icons in the vector form.

Such icon is a letter "M" meant to represent my nickname on this forum even though it resembles a QRS trace. It looks vibrant and full of energy, like myself, so I decided to name the set "PuLSE".

I'm just gonna leave this here. I've found a bunch of the other icons you've used as well. I hope in the very least you're compensating the original designers of these icons whether by attribution or paying for a license to use.

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272

As a designer myself, had you actually drew these icons I might have backed some of your sentiment. Time and again I've seen you post some very arrogant and ignorant statements to others in the community who want to create keysets. Since for the majority this is purely a hobby and not something we make a living at doing I would hope that we would encourage each other and not make bold claims about copyrights for colorways, etc. If we boycott a guy for wanting to design a keyset loosely similar to calm depths, should we not boycott 7bits honeywell sets? or how about the use of kalih, gateron, or any other clone cherry switch for ripping off the original? I don't think we should. All of the work that gets put into our keyboards, whether it be new switches, keysets, custom plates, cases or pcbs, only furthers innovation and creativity. To state ownership over a color combination that you might have been the first to come up with is, in my opinion, immature and ignorant.

Offline user 18

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:44:39 »
MITO nor signature plastcs ever trademarked the colorways. remember how tao hai gratuitously ripped off ctrlalt.ios colors in their "new" keysets? no trademarks filed for a particular colorway means its fair game

mod edit: removed personal attack

I don't approve this mod edit as there were no personal attacks

I would like to speak with the council on this matter

If you have a concern, please send me a PM.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:45:16 »
However, despite of what you think I did create the set, since I spent many hours digitally painting a virtual keyboard layout and importing patially done sketched by hand drawings, to be used as novelty icons in the vector form.

Such icon is a letter "M" meant to represent my nickname on this forum even though it resembles a QRS trace. It looks vibrant and full of energy, like myself, so I decided to name the set "PuLSE".

I'm just gonna leave this here. I've found a bunch of the other icons you've used as well. I hope in the very least you're compensating the original designers of these icons whether by attribution or paying for a license to use.

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272

As a designer myself, had you actually drew these icons I might have backed some of your sentiment. Time and again I've seen you post some very arrogant and ignorant statements to others in the community who want to create keysets. Since for the majority this is purely a hobby and not something we make a living at doing I would hope that we would encourage each other and not make bold claims about copyrights for colorways, etc. If we boycott a guy for wanting to design a keyset loosely similar to calm depths, should we not boycott 7bits honeywell sets? or how about the use of kalih, gateron, or any other clone cherry switch for ripping off the original? I don't think we should. All of the work that gets put into our keyboards, whether it be new switches, keysets, custom plates, cases or pcbs, only furthers innovation and creativity. To state ownership over a color combination that you might have been the first to come up with is, in my opinion, immature and ignorant.

Beyond rekt.

And I own every colorway. Called dibs on them all.
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Offline linkshine

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:51:54 »
However, despite of what you think I did create the set, since I spent many hours digitally painting a virtual keyboard layout and importing patially done sketched by hand drawings, to be used as novelty icons in the vector form.

Such icon is a letter "M" meant to represent my nickname on this forum even though it resembles a QRS trace. It looks vibrant and full of energy, like myself, so I decided to name the set "PuLSE".

I'm just gonna leave this here. I've found a bunch of the other icons you've used as well. I hope in the very least you're compensating the original designers of these icons whether by attribution or paying for a license to use.

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272

As a designer myself, had you actually drew these icons I might have backed some of your sentiment. Time and again I've seen you post some very arrogant and ignorant statements to others in the community who want to create keysets. Since for the majority this is purely a hobby and not something we make a living at doing I would hope that we would encourage each other and not make bold claims about copyrights for colorways, etc. If we boycott a guy for wanting to design a keyset loosely similar to calm depths, should we not boycott 7bits honeywell sets? or how about the use of kalih, gateron, or any other clone cherry switch for ripping off the original? I don't think we should. All of the work that gets put into our keyboards, whether it be new switches, keysets, custom plates, cases or pcbs, only furthers innovation and creativity. To state ownership over a color combination that you might have been the first to come up with is, in my opinion, immature and ignorant.


Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:54:30 »

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272


That's indeed very interesting. The PuLSE icon is indeed created by Nico and wasn't one of the ones that I created and vectorized. The PuLSE icon was the result of a Google search (don't remember exactly what I googled) but I was looking for a pulse trace that would more closely resemble a letter "M".

Do you have other sources for graphics that I used?

Because the printer, the house and the RMK keycap (keyboard icon) ones were created by hand. The megaphone also is not my creation and it was the result of a Google search too (don't remember the exact word I used). All of the icons used on Sci-Fi are my creation too, but they are a combination of hand drawing and Microsoft Paint geometric forms combination.



Offline 27

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 20:55:07 »
However, despite of what you think I did create the set, since I spent many hours digitally painting a virtual keyboard layout and importing patially done sketched by hand drawings, to be used as novelty icons in the vector form.

Such icon is a letter "M" meant to represent my nickname on this forum even though it resembles a QRS trace. It looks vibrant and full of energy, like myself, so I decided to name the set "PuLSE".

I'm just gonna leave this here. I've found a bunch of the other icons you've used as well. I hope in the very least you're compensating the original designers of these icons whether by attribution or paying for a license to use.

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272

As a designer myself, had you actually drew these icons I might have backed some of your sentiment. Time and again I've seen you post some very arrogant and ignorant statements to others in the community who want to create keysets. Since for the majority this is purely a hobby and not something we make a living at doing I would hope that we would encourage each other and not make bold claims about copyrights for colorways, etc. If we boycott a guy for wanting to design a keyset loosely similar to calm depths, should we not boycott 7bits honeywell sets? or how about the use of kalih, gateron, or any other clone cherry switch for ripping off the original? I don't think we should. All of the work that gets put into our keyboards, whether it be new switches, keysets, custom plates, cases or pcbs, only furthers innovation and creativity. To state ownership over a color combination that you might have been the first to come up with is, in my opinion, immature and ignorant.

IG: https://www.instagram.com/27mechs/                                        Website: http://www.mech27.com/

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:05:32 »
It always seemed to me that Pulse was just a modification of Calm Depths (SA, cyan on dark alphas, same font?).
I'm back.

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Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:08:16 »
Also, since this thread was moved from other thread, I'd like to make clear (answering the title) that I do not believe that anybody can claim ownership over a color scheme.

In case anybody here want to use this as a backup for their argument, note that I never said that.

I do however claim that I was the first person to use a particular color scheme with Signature Plastics, also combining with it icons - all of them done by myself but the main logo/megaphone, together with their own font and particular profile (SA).



Offline beehatch

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:11:08 »
I do however claim that I was the first person to use a particular color scheme with Signature Plastics, also combining with it icons - all of them done by myself but the main logo/megaphone, together with their own font and particular profile (SA).

kk so something no one cares about

gotcha

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:21:07 »
kk so something no one cares about

gotcha

I believe that some people care about that, otherwise we would had Penumbra 2 made by somebody else instead of Ctrl.Alt. Note that the set doesn't have graphic novelties and it's a pure combination of colors and legends (and one of the most likable ones, since the set is pretty popular). It's a very well made set and I don't think it should be reproduced by anyone other than Ctrl.Alt. One can be lead to believe that Godspeed/Cospar is a set that resembles Penumbra, but so does Jukebox with it's beige accents. Jukebox however has its own theme (like Godspeed/Cospar) and therefore is a completely different project. Note that none of the sets share color chips, if you are speaking about manufacturing.



Offline Glenmael

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:23:14 »
Great documentary (if you can sit through it and not punch your screen):


Offline beehatch

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:23:59 »
kk so something no one cares about

gotcha

I believe that some people care about that, otherwise we would had Penumbra 2 made by somebody else instead of Ctrl.Alt. Note that the set doesn't have graphic novelties and it's a pure combination of colors and legends (and one of the most likable ones, since the set is pretty popular). It's a very well made set and I don't think it should be reproduced either. One can be lead to believe that Godspeed/Cospar is a set that resembles Penumbra, but so does Jukebox with it's beige accents. Jukebox however has its own theme (like Godspeed/Cospar) and therefore is a completely different project. Note that none of the sets share color chips, if you are speaking about manufacturing.

literally no one cares if you are the first or the last to use a color(s)

Offline lucaslink

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:27:36 »

https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=pulse&i=27272


That's indeed very interesting. The PuLSE icon is indeed created by Nico and wasn't one of the ones that I created and vectorized. The PuLSE icon was the result of a Google search (don't remember exactly what I googled) but I was looking for a pulse trace that would more closely resemble a letter "M".

Do you have other sources for graphics that I used?

Because the printer, the house and the RMK keycap (keyboard icon) ones were created by hand. The megaphone also is not my creation and it was the result of a Google search too (don't remember the exact word I used). All of the icons used on Sci-Fi are my creation too, but they are a combination of hand drawing and Microsoft Paint geometric forms combination.

Overall I don't really care which icons you did or didn't create. And yes, I do have other sources for graphics you've used but I don't think it's worth either of our time in me posting them or calling you out on it, because in the end it doesn't really matter. Making an icon isn't really that difficult (I've made hundreds myself.) Nowadays with the influx of sites like nounproject, 8icon, etc, I don't expect that many of the 'novelties' I see in keysets are created by the set designers unless explicitly stated so. In this particular instance, while you didn't explicitly state you designed the pulse icon, you certainly alluded to it. Keysets AREN'T art. They're functional things that are meant to be used and enjoyed.

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:29:07 »
It always seemed to me that Pulse was just a modification of Calm Depths (SA, cyan on dark alphas, same font?).

I understand your point of view, but the only thing they (CD and PuLSE) share is a somewhat similar cyan tone. Dark alphas is a bit too general in my opinion and at this point we might as well limit the use of SA profile altogether. Of course limiting the profile usage wouldn't make sense. Also, in the PuLSE discussion (Interest Check) people wasn't worried about Calm Depths but Midnight (from Matt3o), since the set was originally meant to be on DCS/Cherry profile.



Offline jaffers

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:31:52 »
Also, since this thread was moved from other thread, I'd like to make clear (answering the title) that I do not believe that anybody can claim ownership over a color scheme.

In case anybody here want to use this as a backup for their argument, note that I never said that.

I do however claim that I was the first person to use a particular color scheme with Signature Plastics, also combining with it icons - all of them done by myself but the main logo/megaphone, together with their own font and particular profile (SA).


... the concepts that define it as a custom keyset created by myself and therefore should not go through their system nor be allowed to happen without my strict permission. The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created...


Offline beehatch

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:38:39 »
brb going to IC my new sweet custom keyset now

PuLSE 2 - The second person to ever use this color scheme

Offline jaffers

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:40:29 »
brb going to IC my new sweet custom keyset now

PuLSE 2 - The second person to ever use this color scheme



Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:45:44 »

Overall I don't really care which icons you did or didn't create. And yes, I do have other sources for graphics you've used but I don't think it's worth either of our time in me posting them or calling you out on it, because in the end it doesn't really matter. Making an icon isn't really that difficult (I've made hundreds myself.) Nowadays with the influx of sites like nounproject, 8icon, etc, I don't expect that many of the 'novelties' I see in keysets are created by the set designers unless explicitly stated so.


I agree that some icons are a bit too general (like the PuLSE trace) and aren't hard to create, but credit must be given to whoever created it. When looking for inspiration you can see that many graphics and drawings share angles, lines and curves. I do not claim ownership over Nico's trace nor the megaphone from (probably) somebody else. There wasn't a name or a source on the image I used so it was impossible to tell who created such general symbol. I searched for the closest trace that could resemble a letter "M", out of hundreds, reproduced it on Paint and went with it.

But I don't think you really have a source for "other icons that I used" since absolutely all of them but the trace/megaphone were done by me. And since you are a designer, you'll agree that wouldn't take too long to make them either. However there was a complex thought process behind their creation and usage.

In this particular instance, while you didn't explicitly state you designed the pulse icon, you certainly alluded to it. Keysets AREN'T art. They're functional things that are meant to be used and enjoyed.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but as discussed by others here "art" is a subjective term and I believe that keysets fit into its literal description. Since you are speaking about functional things being used and enjoyed, note that many artisan keycaps fit into such description and are recognized as art. Many of them, are manufactured instead of hand crafted.



Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:48:41 »
Also, since this thread was moved from other thread, I'd like to make clear (answering the title) that I do not believe that anybody can claim ownership over a color scheme.

In case anybody here want to use this as a backup for their argument, note that I never said that.

I do however claim that I was the first person to use a particular color scheme with Signature Plastics, also combining with it icons - all of them done by myself but the main logo/megaphone, together with their own font and particular profile (SA).


... the concepts that define it as a custom keyset created by myself and therefore should not go through their system nor be allowed to happen without my strict permission. The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created...

Show Image

Top kek

Offline beehatch

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:58:58 »
should change the title of this thread to:

An exclusive in-depth interview with Mito (who is not the owner of any colorways)

Offline demik

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:00:09 »
should change the title of this thread to:

An exclusive in-depth interview with Mito (who is not the owner of any colorways)

way better interview here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69023.0
Back like cooked crack.

Offline tbc

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #45 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:04:31 »
Mito...

Just a word of advice.

Practice your legalese before putting it on a public forum.
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Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:09:14 »
Another thing to note, given the material provided by lucaslink is that the PuLSE icon is under the CC 3.0 license that states:

You are free to:

Share copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format
Adapt remix, transform, and build upon the material
for any purpose, even commercially.
The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms.


The terms being:

Under the following terms:

Attribution You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.
No additional restrictions You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits.


Therefore others are free to use the PuLSE icon in whatever they want and I have no control over that. Such symbol was even used on custom made wrist rests.



Offline inanis

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:13:56 »
Another thing to note, given the material provided by lucaslink is that the PuLSE icon is under the CC 3.0 license that states:

You are free to:

Share copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format
Adapt remix, transform, and build upon the material
for any purpose, even commercially.
The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms.


The terms being:

Under the following terms:

Attribution You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.
No additional restrictions You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits.


Therefore others are free to use the PuLSE icon in whatever they want and I have no control over that. Such symbol was even used on custom made wrist rests.
Bro, you take yourself way to ****ing seriously. It is painful to read sometimes. Just take a step back and look at the big picture. Have a sense of humor about yourself.
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:16:21 »
You're not helping yourself Mito.  You did not credit the creator of the icon which is what the Creative Commons license states must be done.

Additionally, you cannot copyright a colorway or arrangements of color and colors can only be trademarked as part of trade dress.  A set using a colorway is not trade dress.

Offline lucaslink

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:22:17 »
I agree that some icons are a bit too general (like the PuLSE trace) and aren't hard to create, but credit must be given to whoever created it. When looking for inspiration you can see that many graphics and drawings share angles, lines and curves. I do not claim ownership over Nico's trace nor the megaphone from (probably) somebody else. There wasn't a name or a source on the image I used so it was impossible to tell who created such general symbol. I searched for the closest trace that could resemble a letter "M", out of hundreds, reproduced it on Paint and went with it.

so, you admit to tracing the pulse icon and not giving Nico credit and/or compensation? yet, its not ok for others to design keysets that slightly resemble others? i don't get it. googling an image doesn't give you the right to use it in something for commercial use. and yes, if you're making money from the sale of any of your keysets, its commercial. its part of the reason why SP charges what they do to use custom typefaces. they have to pay the original designers licensing fees to use it. (im certain you already knew this.)

But I don't think you really have a source for "other icons that I used" since absolutely all of them but the trace/megaphone were done by me. And since you are a designer, you'll agree that wouldn't take too long to make them either. However there was a complex thought process behind their creation and usage.

OK fine.. https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=leaf&i=27507 you have that in one or two of your keysets, don't you? I didn't see it attributed in your IC posts. like i said, i reaaaaaaally don't care whether or not you create the icons. you made a keyset that people like and want to put on their keyboards. you should be proud of that, but that pride doesn't give you the right to step on others or claim ownership over things that you simply don't or can't own.
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2016, 22:28:01 by lucaslink »