Author Topic: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL  (Read 54092 times)

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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 01 May 2016, 16:01:46 »
Will this support sideways mounting of the FN switches so that they are compatible with the AEKII keycaps?

Thanks for reminding me.  I forget about those silly AEK quirks.

Offline harlw

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 02 May 2016, 09:22:02 »
Watching this one.
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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 02 May 2016, 21:56:22 »
Oh god it is 10 PM why am I still in my lab?  Oh right, I have no life.



This is a good thing for you, because it means I finished my PCB for RosaDom.  I'm printing off some prototypes at OSHpark, and ordering some crap from Mouser.




This is the point where I tell you some of the quirks about the board, but I'm so hungry.  I haven't eaten since lunch.  Plus I'm totally going to get chewed out by my cat.  He's a real taskmaster when it comes to me moving Da Bird for him.
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:31:39 by BlueNalgene »

Offline romevi

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 02 May 2016, 22:06:23 »
:(

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 02 May 2016, 22:30:24 »

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 00:48:32 »
I like that it can be conventional numpad or 20 macro keys.
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Offline emdude

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 00:56:02 »
Wait, that is Rosa?  I thought Rosa was the TKL and Dom the TK.  ;D

In any case, great progress so far, but please eat, and sleep!  :p

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Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 01:27:21 »
Can we talk about the names for a moment?  It only makes me think of Uncle Scrooge Comics
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 06:39:54 »
Ooh I will be following this.  :thumb:

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 10:48:01 »
I have a suggestion/question - not sure if it's even doable.

This can also extend to Hasu's 60%: Is it possible to make the PCB/Plate not just Alps compatible but also SMK/Monterey switch compatible?

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:33:36 »
Wait, that is Rosa?  I thought Rosa was the TKL and Dom the TK.  ;D

In any case, great progress so far, but please eat, and sleep!  :p



Oh, thanks for the catch.  It was Dom.

Can we talk about the names for a moment?  It only makes me think of Uncle Scrooge Comics

They are the names of alpine mountains in Switzerland.

I have a suggestion/question - not sure if it's even doable.

This can also extend to Hasu's 60%: Is it possible to make the PCB/Plate not just Alps compatible but also SMK/Monterey switch compatible?

Hmm, I don't know.  Do you have the spec sheet for those?  I don't know have one to go off of.

Offline Lurch

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:35:13 »
showing interest
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Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:54:34 »
Hmm, I don't know.  Do you have the spec sheet for those?  I don't know have one to go off of.

I can't seem to find one .. here is a pic: http://mousefan.telcontar.net/image/monterey.htm

That's probably not as detailed as you need; still looking.

Offline joey

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:57:56 »
showing interest
interest checked

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #64 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 12:03:38 »
Hmm, I don't know.  Do you have the spec sheet for those?  I don't know have one to go off of.

I can't seem to find one .. here is a pic: http://mousefan.telcontar.net/image/monterey.htm

That's probably not as detailed as you need; still looking.

Yeah, the DT wiki doesn't have anything too useful.  I'd need to know the pin locations and the size of square.

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 12:09:55 »
Hmm, I don't know.  Do you have the spec sheet for those?  I don't know have one to go off of.

I can't seem to find one .. here is a pic: http://mousefan.telcontar.net/image/monterey.htm

That's probably not as detailed as you need; still looking.

Yeah, the DT wiki doesn't have anything too useful.  I'd need to know the pin locations and the size of square.

More switch info here: https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/how-can-you-repurpose-monterey-blues-t12796.html

They are MX size (14x14mm) but I still can't find info on the pins :(  Still looking...

Online SJHL

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 12:16:24 »
It's looking great! :eek:

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 12:17:21 »
I posted a query in the main forum: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81837.0

Offline Blaise170

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 12:25:34 »
SMK pins are basically reverse MX. They are plate compatible though which is nice.
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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 14:09:56 »
More
Hmm, I don't know.  Do you have the spec sheet for those?  I don't know have one to go off of.

I can't seem to find one .. here is a pic: http://mousefan.telcontar.net/image/monterey.htm

That's probably not as detailed as you need; still looking.

Yeah, the DT wiki doesn't have anything too useful.  I'd need to know the pin locations and the size of square.
More switch info here: https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/how-can-you-repurpose-monterey-blues-t12796.html

They are MX size (14x14mm) but I still can't find info on the pins :(  Still looking...

An MX plate is easily designed.  However, the plates cannot be both 14mm square and Alps compatible.  Attempting to do so makes these weird fat cruciform shapes that don't grip the Alps switches properly.

The extra drill holes (hopefully) won't be a big issue.  It depends on their placement.

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 15:04:48 »
BlueNalgene: Someone here has a switch that could help you?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81837.msg2161230#msg2161230

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 18:37:22 »
I have one computer at home with crossfired R9 390's and one at work that appears to be powered by an aging hamster.  Guess which one I decided to do ray tracing renders on?


Offline romevi

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #72 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 19:05:02 »
I have one computer at home with crossfired R9 390's and one at work that appears to be powered by an aging hamster.  Guess which one I decided to do ray tracing renders on?

Show Image


Game pad, obviously.

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 19:28:24 »
I made a prospective case for the Dom<-(I got it right this time) tenkey pad. 



The built in standoffs will use 3/8" 4-40 screws.  There is a 5mm thick space below the plane where the PCB will sit so soldering doesn't touch the metal.  There is a 13mm space for the PCB (final will probably be 1.6mm thick), plate, and switches.  The interior has 0.5 mm clearance on each side so there is wiggle room for caps.  The outer edges have a chamfer, the while everything else uses fillet.  The case is 180 degree, aka flat.  There are 4-40 screw holes on the bottom so you can mount feet of your choosing on them.  I plan on making 11 degree angled risers to accompany this case which may be attached with 1/2" 4-40 screws.  There is one slot for the micro USB output, and 3 slots for USB input. 

I have no idea what it will cost to produce this yet, I just wanted to have something ready to get quotes with.



Also, done today.  To accommodate requests for Monterey Alps support, I have made a pad which supports both SKCM Alps as well as the SMK pins.



This option means that you can use SMK switches with the PCB, but NOT the default plate.  However, I expect I will offer plates with the correct 14mm^2 cutouts with this deal as well (don't tell the Cherry fanboys).  Input is requested for what layouts you will be using.  Due to the design of the tenkey with the USB hub, I probably won't be offering the SMK compatible Dom.  The hub chips and glue electronics take up a lot of board real estate.  I haven't designed Rosa yet, but I expect that there will be plenty of room to handle this update. 

Offline mike52787

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 20:20:27 »
Heres another idea for your pcb. Please include the traces and pads for the keys between the nav cluster and the arrow keys, that is one thing I love to have on tkl layouts, that way you can use a function layer and have a pseudo numpad, if you want that sort of thing. you could offer another plate design like this as well as traditional tkl, I know I would buy one, im sure others would as well.

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 22:11:51 »
Heres another idea for your pcb. Please include the traces and pads for the keys between the nav cluster and the arrow keys, that is one thing I love to have on tkl layouts, that way you can use a function layer and have a pseudo numpad, if you want that sort of thing. you could offer another plate design like this as well as traditional tkl, I know I would buy one, im sure others would as well.

I'm gonna need a picture to see what you mean.

Offline Jokrik

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 22:50:14 »
I made a prospective case for the Dom<-(I got it right this time) tenkey pad. 

Show Image


The built in standoffs will use 3/8" 4-40 screws.  There is a 5mm thick space below the plane where the PCB will sit so soldering doesn't touch the metal.  There is a 13mm space for the PCB (final will probably be 1.6mm thick), plate, and switches.  The interior has 0.5 mm clearance on each side so there is wiggle room for caps.  The outer edges have a chamfer, the while everything else uses fillet.  The case is 180 degree, aka flat.  There are 4-40 screw holes on the bottom so you can mount feet of your choosing on them.  I plan on making 11 degree angled risers to accompany this case which may be attached with 1/2" 4-40 screws.  There is one slot for the micro USB output, and 3 slots for USB input. 

I have no idea what it will cost to produce this yet, I just wanted to have something ready to get quotes with.



Also, done today.  To accommodate requests for Monterey Alps support, I have made a pad which supports both SKCM Alps as well as the SMK pins.

Show Image


This option means that you can use SMK switches with the PCB, but NOT the default plate.  However, I expect I will offer plates with the correct 14mm^2 cutouts with this deal as well (don't tell the Cherry fanboys).  Input is requested for what layouts you will be using.  Due to the design of the tenkey with the USB hub, I probably won't be offering the SMK compatible Dom.  The hub chips and glue electronics take up a lot of board real estate.  I haven't designed Rosa yet, but I expect that there will be plenty of room to handle this update.

Seriously count me in for Monterey, I've those heavenly switch sitting for years now
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Offline engicoder

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 23:39:39 »
Great work so far! Keep posting these updates. I will definitely be participating in this one.
   

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 12:21:36 »
This option means that you can use SMK switches with the PCB, but NOT the default plate.  However, I expect I will offer plates with the correct 14mm^2 cutouts with this deal as well (don't tell the Cherry fanboys).  Input is requested for what layouts you will be using.  Due to the design of the tenkey with the USB hub, I probably won't be offering the SMK compatible Dom.

Nice work!  As far as layout is concerned, the best for me would be 75%/65% but given the difficulty in sourcing the appropriate keys I'll take whatever you offer as long as the caps aren't sourced from something obscure like a Wang.


Offline mrbishop

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 14:02:51 »
Opinion Request: What layouts do you want with a tenkey?

Just the basics?
Show Image


The basics with a little extra?
Show Image


Ortho?
Show Image


Gamepad?
Show Image


These are just mockups made with Swill's, not the final designs.

i really like the game pad.
been wanting to build one for awhile. its on my project list :D
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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 14:21:39 »
Opinion Request: What layouts do you want with a tenkey?

Just the basics?
Show Image


The basics with a little extra?
Show Image


Ortho?
Show Image


Gamepad?
Show Image


These are just mockups made with Swill's, not the final designs.

i really like the game pad.
been wanting to build one for awhile. its on my project list :D

I liked it too.  Unfortunately, with the USB hub electronics, it won't be possible using that plate design.  I would be happy to design one for you which is compatible with my layouts though.  What games do you play/keys do you use? (e.g. for MOBAs I would need to have the 4 skills on top with WASD but for space sims I would make a 9pad control area)

Offline mrbishop

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 14:27:24 »
Opinion Request: What layouts do you want with a tenkey?

Just the basics?
Show Image


The basics with a little extra?
Show Image


Ortho?
Show Image


Gamepad?
Show Image


These are just mockups made with Swill's, not the final designs.

i really like the game pad.
been wanting to build one for awhile. its on my project list :D

I liked it too.  Unfortunately, with the USB hub electronics, it won't be possible using that plate design.  I would be happy to design one for you which is compatible with my layouts though.  What games do you play/keys do you use? (e.g. for MOBAs I would need to have the 4 skills on top with WASD but for space sims I would make a 9pad control area)

when i game i play FPS mostly.
been stuck in Fusion360 alot lately working on designs and such :D
ive been thinking about making a game pad that can also be used for fusion's hot keys

i'm hoping to be able to mill PCB's soon but i'm not at the point where i can design on board controller pcb's just the teensy daughter board stuff -_-
soon i hope. but i have a list of stuff i have to finish first including my mill motion controller upgrade and config :P
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 May 2016, 14:30:13 by mrbishop »
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Offline mike52787

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 18:40:55 »
I'm gonna need a picture to see what you mean.
Heres a pic. This is on my current custom tkl plate that im going to hand wire.

Offline Blaise170

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #83 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 19:51:33 »
If you end up supporting SMK as well I'd be in for two, maybe even three. I think I'd still prefer ANSI (Tai Hao, etc) and AEK support since those are way more common.
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Offline Venatorious

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #84 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 20:13:37 »
Let me ask, who here is going to be using the numpad with the left hand?  Anyone?

Because if so, you might want a few changes to the numpad.  Particularly the "+", "enter" and "0" key orientation.

Offline StormyMonday

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 22:21:48 »
Let me ask, who here is going to be using the numpad with the left hand?  Anyone?

Because if so, you might want a few changes to the numpad.  Particularly the "+", "enter" and "0" key orientation.

Numpad?

I got a Model M for that!

Offline Venatorious

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #86 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 23:30:26 »
Right but the "+" and "enter" keys should be put on the left side of the numpad to accommodate a left hand.  If you plan on using it with your left hand ofc.

Offline wodan

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #87 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 05:03:01 »
I'd love to see support for AEKII-ISO support. These are the best quality ISO alps caps widely available over here, would be so awesome to have them supported.

In for one or more TKLs depending on the layout support. Don't forget the ISO crowd ;)

Offline infodroid

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 11 May 2016, 10:11:38 »
I would love to have hot-swappable switches on the Dom. I don't even know if this is possible with Alps. But I think such a feature would make for a cool switch tester and/or macro pad.

Offline alienman82

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #89 on: Wed, 11 May 2016, 10:21:34 »
removed.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 March 2018, 15:14:19 by alienman82 »

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #90 on: Wed, 11 May 2016, 12:36:30 »
I'm still alive, but I got a pseudo-contract job doing 3D cad.  So the past few days I haven't had much CAD inspiration outside of that stuff.  I should have more things soon.

I would love to have hot-swappable switches on the Dom. I don't even know if this is possible with Alps. But I think such a feature would make for a cool switch tester and/or macro pad.

That probably won't be possible, at least with this design.  That would require another level of board infrastructure and a plate redesign.

Offline infodroid

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #91 on: Wed, 11 May 2016, 16:41:57 »
I would love to have hot-swappable switches on the Dom. I don't even know if this is possible with Alps. But I think such a feature would make for a cool switch tester and/or macro pad.

That probably won't be possible, at least with this design.  That would require another level of board infrastructure and a plate redesign.

I knew it was a long shot, but I wanted to put the idea out there! Who knows, maybe in TK party 2.0  ;)

Offline merlin64

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #92 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 10:41:20 »
Any plans for option to put in a display and make this work as a calculator on its own?  :D
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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #93 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 13:26:02 »
Any plans for option to put in a display and make this work as a calculator on its own?  :D

I actually really like this idea.  I think it would take some prototyping to work though.  I'll keep it in mind. 

Offline rand77

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #94 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 16:36:26 »
Will this support sideways mounting of the FN switches so that they are compatible with the AEKII keycaps?

Thanks for reminding me.  I forget about those silly AEK quirks.

Those AEK keycaps have extra long stems for the FN keys.   Not only would the switch holes need to sideways, the plate / case would need to be modified / elevated to make sure these keys are not sticking a whole "stem length" from the rest of the keys. 

AEK keycaps have a weird profile and case is uneven from front to back.  Here is a picture showing the profile:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l70v79UasG1qzgz2l.jpg

Offline murkey

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #95 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 01:16:30 »
Down for TKL PCB/Plate and case if that works out. Especially if it supports AEK layout

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #96 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 14:05:10 »
Prototype boards are in from OSH Park. 



I already have the components from Mouser, so I will build this up to test soon.  However, I plan on being away for the weekend, so no clue when I will find time to do it.

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #97 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 15:02:37 »
Good work.

I'll have to wait to see what the TKL case looks like, but I'll probably be in.
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Online SJHL

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Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #98 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 15:33:16 »
Hype!

Offline Mattr567

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  • Location: SoCal
Re: [IC] Alps Party Massif: TK + TKL
« Reply #99 on: Fri, 13 May 2016, 23:11:39 »
Looks great.
Wang 725-3770 SKCM Brown, 1995
Zenith 163-73 - SKCM Blue, 1990
KBP V60 MTS - SKCM Amber w/ Canon HiPros
IBM P77, SKCC Green, 1984
IBM P70 - Alps Plate Spring, 1989
Compaq MX 11800, MX Black, 1997