Author Topic: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)  (Read 19348 times)

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Online zslane

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[IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
« on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:06:13 »
(01/23/17) Update: G20 Semiotics is Signature Plastics' January Set of the Month and available for purchase now.

If you are a fan of Ron Cobb's Semiotic Standard or Simon Deering's emergency destruct system panel key graphics from Alien then you'll surely recognize the inspiration for this keyset. This set would be dye-sublimated onto PBT. The base keycap color code is WAN.

After looking at the concept renders that follow, I'm sure one of your first questions is, "Why are you using that funky G20 keycap family?" I know that it isn't exactly popular, and in fact there are many who dislike it rather vigorously. But the flat, square shape of G20 keys suits the highly ortholinear nature of the graphics. I've examined renders of the symbols on other types of keycaps, such as DSA, and found that the curvature of the keycap surface distorts the graphics in very unappealing ways.

Given the limited appeal of the G20 family, this would probably be a very small production run. Consequently I don't believe it is suitable for MassDrop; in fact, I doubt they would take interest in it given how exotic this keyset is. I think it is just too unusual for them. My current thinking is putting it up on PMK directly and letting interested buyers vote for it.

Another source of discomfort for many, I'm sure, is the entirely symbolic nature of the alphas and navcluster keys. While this will undoubtedly bother the hunt-and-peck crowd, I think there are benefits to this unique design. First off, the ability to move the keys around however you like allows for a wide variety of international and alternate layouts without any concern for row profile or legend incompatibilities. For the international user, the biggest issue will be the lack of an ISO return key in the G20 family. The only solution for that is the usual ISO return key from the DCS family. If there is enough international interest in this set, I will make a custom graphic to go on the ISO return key so that it isn't simply blank.

Another interesting benefit to this symbolic design is that the ability to arrange the keys however you like means that no two keyboards need ever look exactly the same, at least in terms of the alphas and navcluster keys. Arranging a G20 Semiotic keyboard is almost an art project in itself.

One final note: my intention is to expand on the keys shown, using graphics from areas of the emergency destruct panel not already in use, so that there would be ample "extra" keys in other sizes for things like the ErgoDox and the WhiteFox and so forth. I think it would be nice for this set to reach as many alternate keyboard layouts as possible without anyone having to resort to blanks. Do keep in mind, though, that there are no G20 molds for keycaps larger than 2.75u, and only one size of spacebar (6.25u).

So is this simply too exotic? Too unusual?

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« Last Edit: Sun, 29 January 2017, 22:46:25 by zslane »

Offline climbalima

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:12:21 »
Does sp do tri sub?

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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:26:00 »
Does sp do tri sub?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

SP has done some pretty crazy dyesub designs in the past. The nyan cat caps spring to mind.

Also, I'll say from experience that the G20 keycap family is actually pretty good. This could be a fun set to have on a white TKL.
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Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:36:46 »
I have it on good authority (Melissa from SP) that there is no limit to the number of colors or to the complexity of the graphics that can be printed by their dyesub printer, subject to fundamental "pixel" size and the intrinsic "bleed" characteristics of the process. As Melissa pointed out (in an e-mail), they can print photographs on keycaps, though they might be a bit blurry.

Offline Vigrith

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:01:29 »
As a lover of all things strange I'm all for this - very cool concept and though a little chaotic, definitely agree G20 is the correct choice here too.

Offline ndlu2

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:26:04 »
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 18:01:49 »
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.

Normal SP MOQ, so fairly low.
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Offline derezzed

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 20:21:46 »
****.  The only reason I would consider this is because I just learned I can tolerate the DSA profile.  And it has Colemak support.    The TWO reasons I would consider this are I can tolerate DSA, and Colemak support.  And it's ***damn Alien.   Amongst the reasons I would consider this are: I can tolerate DSA, Colemak support, and it's Alien. 

This may be the most niche keyset I have seen.  Even so, I believe G20 is the only profile to do this set justice.  Is there any way to get these caps translucent like in the movie?
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And ndlu2 is correct; the G20 profile has a 3 degree slope.  Here's picture comparing G20 to DSA.

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DSA are approximately 8 mm tall.  G20 is approximately 6+ mm tall on the short end and approximately 7 mm (+/-) tall on the other end.

Any idea of what the price might be at MOQ?  How durable is dye-sub?  Is there a possibility of negotiating a better deal with SP for G20, to help promote this profile?

Too exotic?  Too unusual?  Maybe.  It might be something I can't stand typing on but, ***dammit, I want it.  Even if this set never gets made, don't ever delete those renders.

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 20:24:09 »
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.

Thank you for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed that. I will ammend my original post.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 21:45:08 »
I'm glad someone shows G20 some love,  :thumb:
I am using the G20 right now and I actually love it more than OEM
(in the past, I use OEM then change to G20 then change back to OEM for 1 day then change to G20)

this set is indeed exotic, but I don't think that's bad  :))
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Offline jebbra

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 01:35:42 »
Holyfuc I'm in!

A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall  ;D
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Offline Data

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 07:14:34 »
Well it's certainly different.  I like the numpad especially.  If the rest of the set had a similar resemblance to a normal keyset I think I'd like it more.  The symbols are just too random -- and I get that's kind of the point, but I can't think of how I would actually use it.

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 15:41:36 »
I can't think of how I would actually use it.

I sort of figured it would be used much in the same way as keyboards like this:


Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 15:55:14 »
A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall  ;D

Then it wouldn't be G20 Semiotic, but G20 EDS Panel.  A different set with a different focus.

Not that such a set isn't worth doing, just not by me necessarily. The modifiers draw from the EDS panel out of necessity (i.e., the Semiotic symbols look wrong on anything but 1u keys, IMO), and the numpad does so only because its ortholinear layout makes it feasible (it would be an ugly mess to try and force an intrinsically ortholinear design around staggered alphas). As cool as the EDS panel is (I love it too), that motif was never intended to be the guiding aesthetic of the entire set. Moreover, you'd lose the ability to arrange the alphas however you wish, which I think is an appealing benefit of the Semiotic symbols. Being purely symbolic, they are linguistically uninflected and therefore intrinsically international and function-adaptable.

In fact, the inclusion of the numpad was almost an afterthought; I was primarily inspired to create something for small layouts, not full-size boards, despite my own general preference for them. If you were to put this set on a 60% or smaller board, there would be a Semiotic symbol available for every 1u key you'd need covered.
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 October 2016, 19:56:57 by zslane »

Offline Slash Emperor

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 17:23:20 »
I'd be most interested in a GB for this. I'd think it'd be really cool to own such an exotic set.

Offline derezzed

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 20:20:24 »
Does PMK have a voting feature?  I've never seen it.  But like you said, if you go directly through PMK, it seems like you'd face less resistance than if you went through Massdrop.  I can't consider the decision to use EDS legends on the numpad and modifiers to be a compromise because I feel it only enhances the set.   As a Colemak user who only has QWERTY sets right now, this set really appeals to me.   I hear the ship noise of the Nostromo every time I look at this set.  Have I mentioned how much I want this set?

Offline parablol

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 01 November 2016, 14:17:37 »
Very cool! I'm into it.

Would you consider adding the following COFFEE keycap?

Offline finalarcadia

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 01 November 2016, 14:41:45 »
Very cool! I'm into it.

Would you consider adding the following COFFEE keycap?
Show Image


It's already there in W position

Offline switchnollie

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 01 November 2016, 21:51:46 »
Dunno if I'd use it but I like the legends.

Would join just have a neat set :p

Definitely unique.

Offline daijizai

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 08:43:00 »
I would be interested. This could be a fun retrain set to get me over to dvorak on my physical keyboard. Blank keycaps are so boring.

Offline Omnipotent

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 11:51:12 »
I saw this last night and wasn't sure what to think of it. But looking at it again, I feel like it's growing on me. I really like how many of the keys have lines that correlate to one another (Like the numpad, and modifiers). The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D
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Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 13:46:10 »
The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D

This comment made me realize that there are currently enough Semiotic symbol keys to cover all the 1u positions on a 60% board, even replacing the numrow. I think I will whip up a render of what that would look like.

But it also raises the uncomfortable (for me) question of how to best arrange child kits. All ideas are welcome. Keep in mind that my intention would be to have an ErgoDox child kit separate from whatever else there is, so there's no need to focus on that per se.

Offline pomk

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 13:58:43 »
Have you considered adding one 1u key so that the top row would be consistent if one where to use HHKB backspace and top row. Also consider adding short right shift.

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:07:21 »
There are over 50 1u Semiotic symbol keys currently defined (and shown in the above renders). That should be enough to cover any HHKB-style layout.

As for additional keys of other sizes, like extra 2.25u keys or 1.5u keys, I want to put together at least one kit of all of those so that nobody with an alternate layout is left out.

Offline pomk

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:11:25 »
There are over 50 1u Semiotic symbol keys currently defined (and shown in the above renders). That should be enough to cover any HHKB-style layout.

As for additional keys of other sizes, like extra 2.25u keys or 1.5u keys, I want to put together at least one kit of all of those so that nobody with an alternate layout is left out.
Yes, but the numrow would look a bit silly with the second to last key being semiotic while the rest of the row, barring Esc, being in the style of modifiers/numrow/numpad.

edit: a picture to illustrate:
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« Last Edit: Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:46:32 by pomk »

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:50:20 »
Oh! I see what you mean. You want a 1u version of |\ in the style of the current numrow. Yeah, sure, that would be totally doable.

Offline pomk

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:53:48 »
Oh! I see what you mean. You want a 1u version of |\ in the style of the current numrow. Yeah, sure, that would be totally doable.
Thanks!  :-*

Offline derezzed

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 20:28:48 »
The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D

This comment made me realize that there are currently enough Semiotic symbol keys to cover all the 1u positions on a 60% board, even replacing the numrow. I think I will whip up a render of what that would look like.

But it also raises the uncomfortable (for me) question of how to best arrange child kits. All ideas are welcome. Keep in mind that my intention would be to have an ErgoDox child kit separate from whatever else there is, so there's no need to focus on that per se.

Maybe see if SP will give you ballpark figures for a semiotic alphas set with only a semiotic number row, a semiotic alphas set with both the semiotic number row and the EDS number row, and a semiotic alpha set with only an EDS number row.  That might help with determining how to arrange child kits.  As for the market demand angle for defining child kits, I personally want all the semiotic legends I can get.  Plus, I need the the EDS modifiers and num pad, a 1.75u EDS key for my right shift, a couple extra 1u EDS keys (looks like you already have those covered) for my bottom row, and a couple 2u EDS keys for my split spacebar.  I can always order 2u blanks from SP, but if there are 2u keys with legends to be had I will strongly consider buying them.   My plan is to cover my needs and get as many additional unique (accepting some overlap in kits) keys as my budget allows.  I want to get as near a complete set as I can afford.  And if you think they'll be amenable, please consider negotiating for an additional discount or a lower MOQ as this set will be promoting their G20 key family, which does not get a lot of exposure.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 02 November 2016, 23:34:38 »
My thought about the child kits:

- base kit: (more like... novelties kit  ;D )
all 1u alpha,
NOT include spacebar
NOT include 1.5u ( \ | )

- 60% modifiers
all the (normal) modifier for 60%
include 1.5u ( \ | )

- TKL modifiers
the F row
Print, Scroll Lock, Pause
Home, End, PgUp, PgDw, Ins, Del
arrows

- Numpad
the numpad keys

- Tsangan
2.25u "Shift"
1.75u "Shift" or "Fn"

- ErgoDox
(I don't know much about this, basically: keys for the ErgoDox)

- short Spacebar kit: (split-spacebar users)
2u
2.25u
2.75u

- long Spacebar kit:
6u
6.25u
7u

the kits are a bit unconventional, but it's ok for this set, right?
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Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 00:47:13 »
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

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Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 00:58:44 »
My thought about the child kits:
:

That's a pretty nice break-down. Keep in mind that there is only one size spacebar in the G20 family, which is 6.25u. We can use anything 2.75u and smaller to also play the role of a spacebar (or split spacebars), but there is nothing between 3u and 6u (and no 7u) for G20.

Also, I am torn over how to best represent the navcluster. As it stands (in my renders anyway), those keys are, in effect, just a bunch of 1u Semiotic symbol keys. Suppose the "Semiotic Base" kit was composed of all the 1u Semiotic symbol keys, all 50+ of them. There would be no need for a navcluster kit because you'd already have what you need in the Semiotics Base kit. Besides, I suspect that most folks will want all the Semiotic symbols, regardless of the layout they are targeting, just so they can pick and choose which ones to use throughout their keyboards. Doing this, however, would turn the TKL kit into nothing more than an F-row kit. And the issue with an F-row kit is that it would be one of the least cost-effective kits being composed of only 12 keycaps.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:28:14 »
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

(Attachment Link)

look great!  :thumb:

My thought about the child kits:
:

That's a pretty nice break-down. Keep in mind that there is only one size spacebar in the G20 family, which is 6.25u. We can use anything 2.75u and smaller to also play the role of a spacebar (or split spacebars), but there is nothing between 3u and 6u (and no 7u) for G20.

Also, I am torn over how to best represent the navcluster. As it stands (in my renders anyway), those keys are, in effect, just a bunch of 1u Semiotic symbol keys. Suppose the "Semiotic Base" kit was composed of all the 1u Semiotic symbol keys, all 50+ of them. There would be no need for a navcluster kit because you'd already have what you need in the Semiotics Base kit. Besides, I suspect that most folks will want all the Semiotic symbols, regardless of the layout they are targeting, just so they can pick and choose which ones to use throughout their keyboards. Doing this, however, would turn the TKL kit into nothing more than an F-row kit. And the issue with an F-row kit is that it would be one of the least cost-effective kits being composed of only 12 keycaps.

hmm... how about we put the F row keys in Tsangan kit along with the 6.25u spacebar?
the Tsangan kit will cost more than usual but it's understandable.

More
- base kit: (more like... novelties kit  ;D )
all 1u alpha + tkl,
NOT include spacebar
NOT include 1.5u ( \ | )

- 60% modifiers kit:
all the (normal) modifier for 60%
include 1.5u ( \ | )

- Numpad kit:
the numpad keys

- Tsangan kit:
the F row
6.25u (spacebar)
2.25u "Shift"
1.75u "Shift" or "Fn"

- ErgoDox kit:
(I don't know much about this, basically: keys for the ErgoDox)

---------------------
zslane, do you have the "2d render" for this keyset? I want to play around with it a bit  :D

or if possible, please make a render of these layouts (my up-coming board)
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Offline potatobot

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:32:56 »
I like it :)

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:54:37 »
I confess that I don't really understand what a "Tsangan" kit is. The name means nothing to me. Is it wise to put the spacebar that 99% of users will need into such a strangely named kit?

I can't yet make renders of all the funky layouts out there because I don't yet have graphics for all the extra keys that are needed for them. I will need an inventory of necessary extra keys from you folks so I can be sure nothing is left out.

Once I have everything, I can make a large orthographic render so you can chop up the keys into whatever arrangements you like.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 02:02:01 »
I confess that I don't really understand what a "Tsangan" kit is. The name means nothing to me. Is it wise to put the spacebar that 99% of users will need into such a strangely named kit?

I just pulled the name "Tsangan" out of other set, silly me!  :p
should that be named "Adapter kit"? (that's not quite right, hmm...)

I can't yet make renders of all the funky layouts out there because I don't yet have graphics for all the extra keys that are needed for them. I will need an inventory of necessary extra keys from you folks so I can be sure nothing is left out.

Once I have everything, I can make a large orthographic render so you can chop up the keys into whatever arrangements you like.

cool!  :thumb:
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 November 2016, 03:11:39 by Tom_Kazansky »
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Online JaccoW

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 02:14:24 »
Definitely unique. Might be interested if the price is right. :)
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Offline pomk

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 03:30:52 »
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

(Attachment Link)
Would buy 1/1.

As for sets, I'd suggest the following;
All semiotic
All mods and space
Numpad
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 November 2016, 03:36:54 by pomk »

Offline josephwilk

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:23:01 »
Lovely design. Would love to see this on an ergodox. Would fit the sci-fi look with the split square layouts.

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:29:12 »
So cool! Would buy, but I'd like to try the profile first!


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Offline iFreilicht

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:35:19 »
Absolutely lovely! Not sure if I'd actually buy it, but it certainly looks cool and is a nice departure from regular blank caps. Also excited to see a set that fits G20 so well.
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Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 13:00:02 »
As for sets, I'd suggest the following;
All semiotic
All mods and space
Numpad

I like the way you think. Nice and simple.

However, my fear is lack of flexibility means too many folks would be forced to buy keycaps they won't never use (like the entire collection of mods, including alternate layout mods). So here's sorta what I'm pondering:

Semiotic Symbols (all)
Base Mods (w/ spacebar) - combined with the above you have enough to cover any 60% or smaller board.
Top Rows (F- and numrow keys) - combined with the above you have enough to cover TKL and smaller.
Numpad - combined with the above you have enough to cover any full-size board.
ErgoDox - keys specific to the unusual needs of an ErgoDox.
Alternate Extras - basically everything else, which provides for all the other alternate layouts.

Folks wanting 60%-ish boards with a numrow will need the first three kits, and would end up with F-row keys they don't need, but there may be no other way to make those top row keys an optional buy-in and affordable at the same time.

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 13:49:28 »
Just an observation: the anticipated low demand for this highly unusual design would likely result in:

1. Kits that are a little on the expensive side (unless SP decides to offer dramatically low price tiers just to promote the G20 family).

2. A keycap set that is a collector's item right from the get go.

Online reececonrad

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 16:30:03 »
I really love the abstract-future-tech look of this set, and I agree that it fits the G20 profile well.  I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.  They just look too "heavy".  Right now when you look at the keys you can see the division of alphas and modifiers... I'd want it to be extra crazy, like not even being able to distinguish between the two!  CHAOS!  BTW, is there any homing indication for F/J on G20?
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 November 2016, 17:11:13 by reececonrad »

Offline iFreilicht

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 17:05:53 »
However, my fear is lack of flexibility means too many folks would be forced to buy keycaps they won't never use (like the entire collection of mods, including alternate layout mods). So here's sorta what I'm pondering:

Semiotic Symbols (all)
Base Mods (w/ spacebar) - combined with the above you have enough to cover any 60% or smaller board.
Top Rows (F- and numrow keys) - combined with the above you have enough to cover TKL and smaller.
Numpad - combined with the above you have enough to cover any full-size board.
ErgoDox - keys specific to the unusual needs of an ErgoDox.
Alternate Extras - basically everything else, which provides for all the other alternate layouts.

Folks wanting 60%-ish boards with a numrow will need the first three kits, and would end up with F-row keys they don't need, but there may be no other way to make those top row keys an optional buy-in and affordable at the same time.

All I want are the expanded graphics you talked about in the OP. I'm going with a custom layout on an Atomic, so I have no use for the number or function row, but am very excited about the idea of filling the full board with 75 different 1u graphics keys, short of the numpad which I'll also need and use.

So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.
Sentraq S60-X, dyed blank PBT keycaps, Gateron Browns

Online zslane

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 19:09:19 »
So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.

Are you sure you mean NumLock? That key from the numpad goes with the top row of the numpad (which includes the "Agaric Fly" key) and is in the EDS panel motif rather than the Semiotic symbol motif.

But yes, the idea would be that a Semiotic Symbols kit would have all the symbols in the Semiotic symbol style, even the ones shown on the navcluster.

Offline derezzed

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 20:46:42 »
 
I really love the abstract-future-tech look of this set, and I agree that it fits the G20 profile well.  I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.  They just look too "heavy".  Right now when you look at the keys you can see the division of alphas and modifiers... I'd want it to be extra crazy, like not even being able to distinguish between the two!  CHAOS!  BTW, is there any homing indication for F/J on G20?

There is a certain attractive purity in the nearly all-semiotic Planck render, but I enjoy having both the semiotic and the EDS keys and do not find the juxtaposition jarring but, rather, more representative of the theme of the Nostromo and the Alien universe in general.

edit:  I should add that I intend to buy this set regardless of whether the EDS caps are a part of it.


Just an observation: the anticipated low demand for this highly unusual design would likely result in:

1. Kits that are a little on the expensive side (unless SP decides to offer dramatically low price tiers just to promote the G20 family).

2. A keycap set that is a collector's item right from the get go.


G20's uniform profile means that fewer keys are necessary to cover a wide range of keyboard layouts.  G20 is PMK's cheapest family of caps by a good margin.  I think both of these factors will contribute to the ability to make a set that stays true to your vision and is relatively affordable.  And, I assume dye-sub is a cheaper process than double-shot plastic injection.  But I have no experience in organizing a group buy and don't know how much the degree of consumer demand will affect prices for this set. 
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 November 2016, 21:08:56 by derezzed »

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 21:46:58 »
The price of a kit is a function of two factors:

1. The number of keys in the kit.
2. The number of kits manufactured.

The more keys there are in a kit, the lower the per-key cost is. That is of course balanced by the fact that there are more keys in the kit. That's why a small kit still seems to cost a lot; even though there aren't that many keys in it, the per-key cost is disproportionately high.

And obviously, the more kits are made, the lower the overall unit cost. That's why you see drastically difference prices for MOQs of 25, 50, 100, and so on.

So we could have a few large-ish kits and they would be reasonable from a per-key cost basis, but still expensive because each kit has so many keys. Or we could have lots of little kits that seem less expensive on the surface of it, but then you find the cost of buying all the kits you need to fill out a board ends up higher than if you just bought two or three large kits (and ended up with keys you didn't use).

Unfortunately, I think this set might struggle to attract 100 buyers, and so we would not enjoy the price breaks that go with that MOQ tier.

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 22:15:04 »
I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Offline iFreilicht

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:39:33 »
So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.

Are you sure you mean NumLock? That key from the numpad goes with the top row of the numpad (which includes the "Agaric Fly" key) and is in the EDS panel motif rather than the Semiotic symbol motif.

But yes, the idea would be that a Semiotic Symbols kit would have all the symbols in the Semiotic symbol style, even the ones shown on the navcluster.

Oh whoops, anything but that. I was talking about ScrollLock, Print and Pause. Either way, that's exactly what I wanted to hear! A perfect set for an ortholinear keyboard with that premise, I love it!

The price of a kit is a function of two factors:

1. The number of keys in the kit.
2. The number of kits manufactured.

The more keys there are in a kit, the lower the per-key cost is. That is of course balanced by the fact that there are more keys in the kit. That's why a small kit still seems to cost a lot; even though there aren't that many keys in it, the per-key cost is disproportionately high.

And obviously, the more kits are made, the lower the overall unit cost. That's why you see drastically difference prices for MOQs of 25, 50, 100, and so on.

So we could have a few large-ish kits and they would be reasonable from a per-key cost basis, but still expensive because each kit has so many keys. Or we could have lots of little kits that seem less expensive on the surface of it, but then you find the cost of buying all the kits you need to fill out a board ends up higher than if you just bought two or three large kits (and ended up with keys you didn't use).

Unfortunately, I think this set might struggle to attract 100 buyers, and so we would not enjoy the price breaks that go with that MOQ tier.

I'd rather have a few too many keys for a bit less money than just the right amount of keys for a little higher cost.

What about running the whole keyset as one huge set instead of splitting it up? That would guarantee the lowest cost for most people. On the other hand, the smaller your board, the less you'd profit from this, but it seems that for a set with expectations below 100 pcs. this is a viable option.
Sentraq S60-X, dyed blank PBT keycaps, Gateron Browns

Offline jal

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Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:41:36 »
Absolutely in. I love projects like this.