Author Topic: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS  (Read 11063 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 06:28:43 »
Heya,

As a big fan of GMK keycap sets it always hurts me to see these AMAZING sets pop up knowing that I - as a German who writes a lot in German - will never get proper ISO-DE or even ISO-DE-like legends in this color scheme.

GMK has already lowere their MOQ to 150pc for most sets which makes some of the more exciting color schemes possible. That's still far too high for a full International/NORDE kit like we see them in large SP GBs.

My idea was to collect all the non-ANSI keys from a range of ISO-locales that I thought would fit together and try to extract the essentials from them. There are people who would rather type on stems than keycaps with incorrect tertiary legends but I am personally very willing to compromise a little when it comes to tertiary legends and some special keys rather than using full ANSI.

So let me make this clear: This concept will not give ANY of the included ISO locals a 100% perfect keycap set. If that's your personal standard you are free to tell me so but don't be offended if I can't help you.

My great hope is that the majority of the included ISO locale users is happy about a 90% solution that might happen rather than work for a 100% solution that has a much smaller chance of happening.

An ISO-International kit would never hit GMK MOQ in a community GB. That's the case for many keycaps included in large GMK Base kits, a HHKB kit would also not hit MOQ if sold individually. I am hoping we can design a collection of keycaps small enough to make it into a large GMK Base kit.

Some large GMK Base kits already include a few ISO-UK keycaps - those are most likely already in this essentials kit and wouldn't actually raise the cap count. My idea was working for a collection of keys that raises the Base kit price by less than 20%, ideally even less than 20$. Are you with me?

Here's my current status.
- Green keys are the ISO-International essentials
- Yellow keys are candidates for removal
- Dark blue indicates perfect matches
- Light blue indicates very close matches
- Light Red indicates some kind of match
- Red indicates ... hm :(



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6f7830fa68c43c022e3d691bddb1a9a2

My concept:
- First key of row 1 just isn't worth it
- Tertiary legends are no a priority
- Secondary/Tertiary legends swap counts as a close match to me
- Row profiles matter, this isn't DSA

Here's the GB Designer version with just the included keys:


EDIT - UPDATE:
Got a response from GMK regarding the markup when adding the originally planned 35 keys to a common GMK base kit (100+ keycaps) and the estimate is 16,50 at MOQ 150! That should be LESS THAN 20$  even with tax&customs&currency conversion!
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 November 2016, 00:59:38 by wodan »

Offline eddible

  • Posts: 162
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 06:39:24 »
I'm a little confused, what's the plan here? Do you want to try and get these keys produced in a particular colourway or alongside future sets?

As for improving ISO Compatibility, I 100% support this. I'm kind of lucky as a UK ISO user but even that can be a struggle at times (looking at your Carbon!)

Offline pomk

  • Posts: 470
  • Location: Finland
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 06:51:07 »
Seeing how well ISO localization is received here at geekhack, in contrast to for example the HHKB layout, I'd say that the chance of a GB leader adding 20+ keys to the base set is very unlikely. Thus I propose that you should run the GB yourself so that you can force the issue.

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 08:05:39 »
I'm a little confused, what's the plan here? Do you want to try and get these keys produced in a particular colourway or alongside future sets?

As for improving ISO Compatibility, I 100% support this. I'm kind of lucky as a UK ISO user but even that can be a struggle at times (looking at your Carbon!)

The idea is to prepare a selection of keys that anyone designing a large GMK GB can use in his keycap selection. It's enough struggle with modifiers, blanks, space bars and HHKB keycaps for a GB runner, adding a basic support for as many ISO locales as possible should be a no brainer. Just throw the keys in if you want it, don't think about it much. We do all the thinking here and try to come up with a good balance, then propose this in all GMK GBs that we want to see become more international.

... Thus I propose that you should run the GB yourself so that you can force the issue.

What GB? What I am trying to put together here is supposed to be GB independent to support GB runners when they are willing to add International support to their kits. It's one thing for a GB runner to be willing to add international support, making him put together all the right keys costs A LOT of time and that just makes it so much less likely these keys will make it into the kit. I want to eliminate this step and offer "THE ISO-INTERNATIONAL ESSENTIALS" kit as a simple addition to any future GMK GB.

Offline eddible

  • Posts: 162
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 08:19:09 »
Gotcha, yes that makes sense! I suppose from a UK perspective, my absolutely minimum is literally just a R4 |\  (along with the ISO return, but that's usually a given). As long as I have that, I'm not too fussed about the location of @# etc.

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 03 November 2016, 08:28:36 »
Gotcha, yes that makes sense! I suppose from a UK perspective, my absolutely minimum is literally just a R4 |\  (along with the ISO return, but that's usually a given). As long as I have that, I'm not too fussed about the location of @# etc.

ISO UK is nearly fully covered, check the link in the OP. Just missing the @ on the 4 keycap.

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 04:47:54 »
Embedded the latest version of my concept into the OP. The selection of keys is quite stable now, 30 keys with three optional fluffs. Got in tough with GMK trying to get a rough estimate of what these keys would cost as a markup when adding them to a full set.

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 06:22:39 »
The euro glyph on the number 5 is not commonly found and I guess anyone would be happy with the ANSI variant. So that makes one key to remove.

Also, by the look of it, the easiest thing to achieve would be the number strip along with the punctuation strip (the keys between the letter M and the right shift).
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 November 2016, 06:30:26 by TalkingTree »
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 06:51:47 »
Indeed, thanks for the feedback. If we wanted to reduce the sets further in size we could eliminate 2-3 keys from row2 and row3.

I wanted to keep the keys in that at least give us an all-blue coverage of NORDE and UK. The 5 key is not part of the GREEN keys (any more ...) so that one doesn't even count towards the 30 keys I picked now.


Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:24:08 »
30 keys I picked now.
30 1u keys. How much would they cost at GMK?
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:28:16 »
When part of a large 100+ keys base kit I am hoping for 20$-25$ additional cost.

Actually got in touch with the GMK guy and asked him if he could give me a rough estimate to make it even easier for GB designers to calculate the costs of added internationalization.

I guess making an individual kit with just those keys would be more like 30$ (packing, sorting)

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 09:08:32 »
Okay _JUST_ got a response from GMK - I am THRILLED!

The estimate is still for the "full" 35 keys set before I did the last optimization round.

Here's the quote:
Quote
MOQ 150 sets, ca. 16,50 (netto,EXW)
MOQ 250 sets, ca. 15 (netto, EXW)
MOQ 500 sets, ca. 13,50 (netto, EXW)
MOQ 1,000 sets, ca. 11,50 (netto, EXW)

These numbers are valid when ADDING these keys to an existing FULL BASE KIT (100+ keys)

But even with the lowest MOQ of 150, this ISO International kit could be added for _LESS_ than 20$ (including tax, customs, currency conversion)

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 09:46:57 »
I take those quotes are for one colour scheme alone, but perhaps it's worth trying to ask if they are willing to combine two or three colour schemes into a single production batch.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 09:49:31 »
Well these quotes are for ADDING these keys to a large base kit with more than  100+ keys in it already

Ordering these keys in an individual kit would be more, maybe closer to 25$


Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 09:58:06 »
Well these quotes are for ADDING these keys to a large base kit with more than  100+ keys in it already

Ordering these keys in an individual kit would be more, maybe closer to 25$
Either way a good deal to me.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 10:01:26 »
Thanks, that sounds good. I will try and present this idea to some GMK GBs in IC stage and hope to get some feedback and maybe even internationalized sets! If you feel like this is a good idea, I invite everyone to support me when you see me advertise it or even advertise it yourself. Feel free to use the KLE layout or pictures from this thread if you feel like advertising this to a GB designer yourself. I don't want credits or anything, everything is totally free for anyone to use.

Offline My_Thoughts

  • Posts: 208
  • Location: Scotland
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 04 November 2016, 11:06:07 »
This is looking good

Offline Trouhel

  • Posts: 8
  • Location: France
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 06:42:56 »
I didn't notice the current thread and suggested 7 (argumented) modifications to  wodan's proposed 35 kit in GMK Carbon IC thread. Even though they might not be relevant any more since the new set has only 30 mandatory keycaps, I do believe they are still worth considering, since it can be reworked as explained below to a mere 10% (3) additional keycaps.

See: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79693.msg2296774#msg2296774

The main reason for these modifications is to have all glyphs useful for writing software available in any of the targeted languages.

If applied to the the ISO-international essentials these modifications may be reduced to 4:  the modified kit is then fully compatible with DE, SE/FI and UK, NO and DK being treated as in the original 35 keycaps kit, by adding R3  and R3  .

These 4 changes consist in adding R1 ^ (DE), R1 (SE/DK), and R1 ` (UK) and keeping 2 Q @.(DE) from the candidates for removal. R1 could even be omitted (It only breaks full SE compatibility).
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 November 2016, 09:21:04 by Trouhel »

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 09:37:10 »
The complete removal of the first keycap from Row 1 has several reasons:

- Many popular, compact layouts don't even use this cap and put an ESC key there instead.
- Even if this key is used in a TKL for example, some people want it in alpha color while others want it in modifier color and we couldn't ask for both while the ANSI-US key for that position is often included in two colors
- There is hardly ANY matching legends in the target locales, picking any number of keys would be a big middle finger for all other locales. So far I am getting the five NORDEUK locales equally blueish with the exception of this one key. Putting it in for DE and UK would put these locales above the other core NORDEUK
locales

Since you seem to be an AZERTY native, maybe you would like to add an FR row to my KLE layout for comparison. At first sight it looked like there are hardly ANY matches with the existing ISO-International kit :(

I did consider adding a handful of keycaps for the PT/ES/IT locales but there are just too many keys required to render them all blue. Randomly adding 2-3 keys to make their rows a little more blue didn't make sense to me, that would turn out to be an ugly match with ANSI keycaps.

Maybe it's the community I hang out in but my impression is that most of the hardcore keyboard enthusiasts in ISO countries are NORDEUK with a strong PT community as well.

Offline soilheart

  • Posts: 190
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 12:34:53 »
As a Swede, I would care more about getting the 3 and 4 keys with correct shift legends than the E with and M with key. Or at least the 3 key as isn't my most used character in daily writing =P

Just my two cents =)

Edit: Concerning the first 1u R1 key I actually prefer the US key, even though it has totally wrong legends, so I think omitting it is a good decision ;)
(K70 -  Brown) --- Pok3r - Clear --- Ducky Shine4 - Clear --- WKL B.face X2 - 67g Zealios --- CP-SQ - 78g Zealios --- RS68 - 62g Zealios
(Sold/retired - To be built)

Offline Trouhel

  • Posts: 8
  • Location: France
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 12:47:45 »
1. While your points on the first R1 keycaps makes perfect sense to me, the aim of adding R1 ^ , R1 ` (and keeping R2 Q @) is to have ^ | and @ available in all layouts as they are a must for some if not most computers coding idioms. That's of course leaving aside the colour scheme issue.

2. AZERTY does not make sense, as it requires ~25 very specific keys. There's certainly no market for that. The, probably few, French speaking users of aftermaket keycaps usually resort to US International, and some, perhaps, to custom layouts. May someday a kit will come out with the 6 additional French Canadian layout upper case letters+diacritics: this could be very helpful for custom layouts.

3. A similar approach to the one you took for Danish and Norwegian, and the one hinted at above for French, could apply to Spanish and Portuguese as well, i.e. adding R3 for both and R3 for Spanish. Italian is harder to tackle with: may be adding the four R2 and R3 keycaps that have lower case vowels+diacritics would be a possible answer. It's a matter for native speakers of these languages to settle.

On these last points, the approach differs from yours as its aim is not to provide a better match to the standard national layout, but to give users the ability to build their own custom layout with all standard alphas displayed on keycaps, even though whether that makes sense to most potential users or is pointless remains questionable.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 November 2016, 12:49:37 by Trouhel »

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:14:36 »
Here's my current status.
- Green keys are the ISO-International essentials
- Yellow keys are candidates for removal
- Dark blue indicates perfect matches
- Light blue indicates very close matches
- Light Red indicates some kind of match
- Red indicates ... hm :(

Show Image


http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6f7830fa68c43c022e3d691bddb1a9a2

My concept:
- First key of row 1 just isn't worth it
- Tertiary legends are no a priority
- Secondary/Tertiary legends swap counts as a close match to me
- Row profiles matter, this isn't DSA


EDIT - UPDATE:
Got a response from GMK regarding the markup when adding the originally planned 35 keys to a common GMK base kit (100+ keycaps) and the estimate is 16,50 at MOQ 150! That should be LESS THAN 20$  even with tax&customs&currency conversion!



Thanks for your very important contribution.

I'm not sure what de se no dk users think, if they could sacrifice some keys that are very easy to remember, or if the are considered very important, I'm talking about the yellow ones:
Q@
M -mu

About the E, on second thought, I'd like to have it in the ISO kit...

Talking about my ideal italian layout, I would be happy to sacrifice this key
\| (currently red)

But I'm not sure that I, or other italian users, could justify a kit missing all the pink-red keys, which are used very often:
'?
^

+]

a


Another thing: the keys with three symbols... are they doubleshot or pad printed? If they're pad printed, maybe it could be taken into consideration to simplify some keys, removing some symbols, also because they conflict with other languages:
- removing the { [ ] } from 7 8 9 0
- removing the \ from the ?+

And about the estimate received by gmk, that is a very good news. If I only think how much did I have to discuss in each group buy, to have barred FJ5 added to the base set... An exorbitant expense of 1.5, for a thing that 50% of geekhackers love.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:29:05 by Giorgio »

Offline Judicator

  • Posts: 13
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:41:11 »
Here's my current status.
- Green keys are the ISO-International essentials
- Yellow keys are candidates for removal
- Dark blue indicates perfect matches
- Light blue indicates very close matches
- Light Red indicates some kind of match
- Red indicates ... hm :(

Show Image


http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6f7830fa68c43c022e3d691bddb1a9a2

My concept:
- First key of row 1 just isn't worth it
- Tertiary legends are no a priority
- Secondary/Tertiary legends swap counts as a close match to me
- Row profiles matter, this isn't DSA


EDIT - UPDATE:
Got a response from GMK regarding the markup when adding the originally planned 35 keys to a common GMK base kit (100+ keycaps) and the estimate is 16,50 at MOQ 150! That should be LESS THAN 20$  even with tax&customs&currency conversion!



Thanks for your very important contribution.

I'm not sure what de se no dk users think, if they could sacrifice some keys that are very easy to remember, or if the are considered very important, I'm talking about the yellow ones:
Q@
M -mu

About the E, on second thought, I'd like to have it in the ISO kit...

Talking about my ideal italian layout, I would be happy to sacrifice this key
\| (currently red)

But I'm not sure that I, or other italian users, could justify a kit missing all the pink-red keys, which are used very often:
'?
^

+]

a

[SNIP]
I agree those keys are hard to give up.
Anyway thanks for your commitment wodan.

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 14:13:18 »
1. While your points on the first R1 keycaps makes perfect sense to me, the aim of adding R1 ^ , R1 ` (and keeping R2 Q @) is to have ^ | and @ available in all layouts as they are a must for some if not most computers coding idioms. That's of course leaving aside the colour scheme issue.

2. AZERTY does not make sense, as it requires ~25 very specific keys. There's certainly no market for that. The, probably few, French speaking users of aftermaket keycaps usually resort to US International, and some, perhaps, to custom layouts. May someday a kit will come out with the 6 additional French Canadian layout upper case letters+diacritics: this could be very helpful for custom layouts.

3. A similar approach to the one you took for Danish and Norwegian, and the one hinted at above for French, could apply to Spanish and Portuguese as well, i.e. adding R3 for both and R3 for Spanish. Italian is harder to tackle with: may be adding the four R2 and R3 keycaps that have lower case vowels+diacritics would be a possible answer. It's a matter for native speakers of these languages to settle.

The starting point for my kit design was actually a NORDE kit and the idea was to "optimize" that to a certain degree to make it more feasible such a kit is included in a GMK GB.
When I realized there are a handful of other popular locales like ES, PT and IT that share more than 50% of these ISO-International keys, it made sense to me to include them in the overview.
Unfortunately, apart from the keys that are blue-ish already in these locales, there are no additional easy picks for me. If I could get just two of these locales blue-ish with just 3-5 additional keycaps I would consider it.

On these last points, the approach differs from yours as its aim is not to provide a better match to the standard national layout, but to give users the ability to build their own custom layout with all standard alphas displayed on keycaps, even though whether that makes sense to most potential users or is pointless remains questionable.

True, that is a very different challenge. Same when designing such a kit for a non-profiled layout like DSA ...


Thanks for your very important contribution.

I'm not sure what de se no dk users think, if they could sacrifice some keys that are very easy to remember, or if the are considered very important, I'm talking about the yellow ones:
Q@
M -mu

About the E, on second thought, I'd like to have it in the ISO kit...

Talking about my ideal italian layout, I would be happy to sacrifice this key
\| (currently red)

But I'm not sure that I, or other italian users, could justify a kit missing all the pink-red keys, which are used very often:
'?
^

+]

a


Another thing: the keys with three symbols... are they doubleshot or pad printed? If they're pad printed, maybe it could be taken into consideration to simplify some keys, removing some symbols, also because they conflict with other languages:
- removing the { [ ] } from 7 8 9 0
- removing the \ from the ?+

And about the estimate received by gmk, that is a very good news. If I only think how much did I have to discuss in each group buy, to have barred FJ5 added to the base set... An exorbitant expense of 1.5, for a thing that 50% of geekhackers love.


Thanks for your input. All the keycaps are designed to be fully doubleshot. Leaving one of the legends away wouldn't affed the price in any way. While I considered pad-printing some keys to further reduce key count, I don't think that replacing a key by pad-printing another key will save much cost in the end.

It's also a big shame that some popular layouts like PT, ES and IT are still that "red". I elaborated a little more on how I just wanted to "optimize" a NORDE kit and added the PT, ES, IT keys just to show that there are 50%+ matches. My dilemma is now that the remaining red keys have hardly any matches. Even if I added the 3-4 keys that are shared between two or three languages there would still be a couple of red caps left in all three languages. People who don't want an incomplete set still wouldn't be happy and the cost is increased at basically no win. If there was a chance to get two of those locales all blue-ish with another 3-5 keys I would totally do it but the way I see it right now I can just add keys to make them less red or turn this into a 50 keys set ... not even ES and PT go together well with the remaining red keys! Drives me mad ...

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 15:29:16 »
It would be interesting to see where geekhackers interested in this are from.

6 keys would increase the price of 3.

Otherwise, we find 20 italian geekhackers and you share the cost between them :-)

As an italian user, I would be happy to pay something more to have my layout added. Let's say that there is a total of 20 italian users interested in this...

What's the MOQ of an addon to the base set? 150 pieces?

150 keys * 6 italian keys * 0.5 eur/key = 450 eur

450 eur/ 20 italian users= 22.5 eur

and then you must obviously send me all  the 45 keys that I've paid!! :-)

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 05 November 2016, 15:51:26 »
The idea was never to run this as a standalone GB, prices would be quite different if we asked for a 30 keys set. My idea was to make a set that other GB designers can integrate into their GMK Base kits to add support for some of the most popular international locales. Norde and UK users are a strong faction and have the potential to make the difference between a 150 moq and 250moq. The price drop from 150 to 250 should almost completely pay for the ISO-International kit.

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 03:34:16 »
we find 20 italian geekhackers
Easy to say.

As an italian user, I would be happy to pay something more to have my layout added. Let's say that there is a total of 20 italian users interested in this...
What's the MOQ of an addon to the base set? 150 pieces?
150 keys * 6 italian keys * 0.5 eur/key = 450 eur
450 eur/ 20 italian users= 22.5 eur
and then you must obviously send me all  the 45 keys that I've paid!! :-)
Intriguing. I would support this.

The idea was never to run this as a standalone GB, prices would be quite different if we asked for a 30 keys set.
How different? It would be worth running an ISO-int GB for past GBs such ask Skidata+ or Skeletor (with the permission of their respective creators).

But I'm not sure that I, or other italian users, could justify a kit missing all the pink-red keys, which are used very often:
'?  ^      +] 
I could happily give up the for I use the ANSI enter and I remove the entirely, but that's just me. I could live without the pink keys since I can touch type but having them on the board would make it prettier.

Another thing: the keys with three symbols... are they doubleshot or pad printed?
I guess as long as they are on the top side, they are doubleshot.

My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline jchan94

  • Keyclack Inc
  • * Vendor
  • Posts: 1566
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Please email jchan@keyclack.com. PMs are disabled
    • KeyClack
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 03:40:48 »
great idea.

having dealt with GMK internationally, you need to be aware of this:

If you are buying from GMK in the EU and do not want to be subjected to VAT, then you need to have a registered business there.

Good luck with this!
Support Email: support@keyclack.com

Did you miss something from us?
- Sign up for our Mailing List: https://eepurl.com/coAJ5r

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 04:30:52 »
great idea.

having dealt with GMK internationally, you need to be aware of this:

If you are buying from GMK in the EU and do not want to be subjected to VAT, then you need to have a registered business there.

Good luck with this!

Not sure what you mean with business,
It's enough to have a VAT registration number, which is something that most professionals have (from engineers, to freelance workers, to lawyers).

Offline duynguyenle

  • Posts: 1384
  • Location: UK - Midlands
  • Personal text? What personal text???
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 09:55:01 »
great idea.

having dealt with GMK internationally, you need to be aware of this:

If you are buying from GMK in the EU and do not want to be subjected to VAT, then you need to have a registered business there.

Good luck with this!

Not sure what you mean with business,
It's enough to have a VAT registration number, which is something that most professionals have (from engineers, to freelance workers, to lawyers).

Unless you're self-employed or are a contractor with your own LLC, you WILL NOT have this (source: am professional engineer for an European company)
| QFR            | Leeku 1800    | Raptor K1      | Dolch Pac

Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 12:30:33 »
If you are in EU, then you have to pay either the sellers VAT rate or yours.

I'd rather pay the german 19% instead of our 27%.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 14:16:37 »
If you are in EU, then you have to pay either the sellers VAT rate or yours.

I'd rather pay the german 19% instead of our 27%.

Or you can say that you need those keys, and that they're necessary to your professional activity, and you end up paying only half of the sum. You pay 100 for the keys, then you save 50 from taxes.

Sir, I need my keys fresh. I change a set every day.
« Last Edit: Sun, 06 November 2016, 14:20:49 by Giorgio »

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 14:18:31 »

great idea.

having dealt with GMK internationally, you need to be aware of this:

If you are buying from GMK in the EU and do not want to be subjected to VAT, then you need to have a registered business there.

Good luck with this!

Not sure what you mean with business,
It's enough to have a VAT registration number, which is something that most professionals have (from engineers, to freelance workers, to lawyers).

Unless you're self-employed or are a contractor with your own LLC, you WILL NOT have this (source: am professional engineer for an European company)

I'm both.

Offline duynguyenle

  • Posts: 1384
  • Location: UK - Midlands
  • Personal text? What personal text???
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 14:37:29 »

great idea.

having dealt with GMK internationally, you need to be aware of this:

If you are buying from GMK in the EU and do not want to be subjected to VAT, then you need to have a registered business there.

Good luck with this!

Not sure what you mean with business,
It's enough to have a VAT registration number, which is something that most professionals have (from engineers, to freelance workers, to lawyers).

Unless you're self-employed or are a contractor with your own LLC, you WILL NOT have this (source: am professional engineer for an European company)

I'm both.

And people who aren't won't have a VAT number, simple as that.
| QFR            | Leeku 1800    | Raptor K1      | Dolch Pac

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 06 November 2016, 15:53:26 »
This is going way off topic. We're supposed to discuss about european layouts, not VATs.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline shower_king

  • Posts: 524
  • Location: Shang Hai. China.
  • Pain is weakness leaving your body
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 14 November 2016, 20:07:02 »
i have a plan for GMK with GE1 yellow and RO1 red , if you could give me the exact keys  on ISO-International essentials , i will add them to my lay-out.
i have no MOQ about this GMK GB,

Offline wodan

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 549
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 15 November 2016, 00:14:54 »
i have a plan for GMK with GE1 yellow and RO1 red , if you could give me the exact keys  on ISO-International essentials , i will add them to my lay-out.
i have no MOQ about this GMK GB,

Oh wow that sounds amazing! Thanks very much for considering!

All the GREEN keycaps from this image:


Please let me know if there are any questions regarding row profile or legends. Will provide all the support need.

Okay why make it so hard. Here's the "GB designer version":
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 November 2016, 01:00:02 by wodan »

Offline lordzebu

  • Posts: 6
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 15 November 2016, 04:28:29 »
Great work wodan, I hope this will be picked up by future GMK GBs!

Offline iFreilicht

  • Posts: 163
  • Location: Germany
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 15 November 2016, 04:57:33 »
Both pictures are very helpful, this is great work! on M isn't optional though, I need this to show off when I talk about m and ATX mainboards. ;)
Sentraq S60-X, dyed blank PBT keycaps, Gateron Browns

Offline LeandreN

  • Mekanisk.co
  • * Vendor
  • Posts: 2915
  • Location: ISO
    • Mekanisk
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 26 November 2016, 16:42:59 »
Thanks for your work Wodan!

Offline nastrovje

  • Posts: 144
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 27 November 2016, 06:15:03 »
Awesome wodan! You are the man we needed!

Offline pon10

  • Posts: 278
  • Location: At the desk
  • looking at my keycaps..
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 08 July 2017, 04:20:55 »
U cant be on holiday forever! :) i need some more pessimistic KB building! haha, but i was cursing as much you with the XDA set! ****ing 3000 kits haha... one wish from me on your videos is take 5 min in the end to just show the finish keyboard a little longer :) ..

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7810
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Bjrk.
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 08 July 2017, 09:28:46 »
It seems that the OP has abandon this idea, or at least he left it unattended, for quite some time already. What's the point of reopening the thread?

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 08 July 2017, 11:03:17 »
Wasn't the idea to define a kit for ISO languages to be included in ANSI/UK sets? GB runners choose wheter to offer the kit or not in their GBs, it's really not Wodan's decision.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline pon10

  • Posts: 278
  • Location: At the desk
  • looking at my keycaps..
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 08 July 2017, 12:11:16 »
It seems that the OP has abandon this idea, or at least he left it unattended, for quite some time already. What's the point of reopening the thread?

"Whats the point?" wtf...

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7810
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Bjrk.
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 08 July 2017, 21:05:09 »
Wasn't the idea to define a kit for ISO languages to be included in ANSI/UK sets? GB runners choose wheter to offer the kit or not in their GBs, it's really not Wodan's decision.

Thanks for the explanation, I have not read that post carefully.

Offline pon10

  • Posts: 278
  • Location: At the desk
  • looking at my keycaps..
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 09 July 2017, 03:13:46 »
Wasn't the idea to define a kit for ISO languages to be included in ANSI/UK sets? GB runners choose wheter to offer the kit or not in their GBs, it's really not Wodan's decision.

Thanks for the explanation, I have not read that post carefully.

Sry for the lack of explanation, i assumed the post was read ;)

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7810
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Bjrk.
Re: GMK ISO-International ESSENTIALS
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 09 July 2017, 07:20:04 »
Wasn't the idea to define a kit for ISO languages to be included in ANSI/UK sets? GB runners choose wheter to offer the kit or not in their GBs, it's really not Wodan's decision.

Thanks for the explanation, I have not read that post carefully.

Sry for the lack of explanation, i assumed the post was read ;)


No worries. The Norde kit is a great idea. I do not use it but I really like that someone takes the time to configure and propose a set that may cover those EU layouts that are rarely considered in GBs for GMK sets. BTW I found that I can populate an Spanish layout with this kit, almost completely, that is the other Language I use along with English using the ANSI US international layout. That may open some new options for my usage.