Author Topic: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)  (Read 316756 times)

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Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1400 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 10:49:19 »
I wasn't aware that this design was commissioned from Rama by Juahenza. This is a grey area, to be sure, though it doesn't necessarily change what I said. By having his name attached to this project, all projects to which his name are attached are suspect, regardless of his connection (or lack thereof) to the group buy leaders. To be a little clearer, referring to my last comment, his name carries no weight. We cannot be comfortable saying "it has Rama's name attached to the project, so it's gonna go great."

So, regardless of the circumstances, in my eyes Rama has severely damaged his reputation. This isn't personal, and there is no question that he is a hell of an artist, but his name carries no weight in a project. Not anymore, at least.


@catweewee, thanks for the information regarding programmability. I'll look into that. And yes, I understand that the SMD issue is common and/or minor, but it doesn't change that the information was withheld by the GB leadership, and that most or all of us will be receiving imperfect PCBs. That is inexcusable.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 November 2017, 10:53:41 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline megaforce93

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1401 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 11:39:00 »
Cool story bro  :thumb:

Offline catweewee

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1402 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 11:48:47 »


My PCB is fine, so I don't think all PCBs are effected.

I also wrote a quick guide on programming the Exent.

https://github.com/catweewee/Exent-Bootmapper






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Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1403 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:05:21 »
Show Image


My PCB is fine, so I don't think all PCBs are effected.

I also wrote a quick guide on programming the Exent.

https://github.com/catweewee/Exent-Bootmapper






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Thank you Cat.
   

Offline Vigrith

  • Posts: 1341
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1404 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:12:42 »
Every name associated with this GB has forever lost my business.

I hope Rama isn't included in this... Loveable guy :'(

He absolutely is. Him most of all, perhaps.


You'll say Rama is just the designer, and I'll say how did we end up with our current leadership? Did Rama just say "hey whoever wants this, take it" or did he actively choose them? Either way, he can't be trusted to select capable leadership for the production of his designs. His name, attached to a project, is rendered meaningless.

To answer your questions:

Juahenza commissioned a design with Rama. It dates back a lot further than you think (originally called the M67, and first publicly teased August 2016). Juahenza chose Rama, not the other way around. Rama has absolutely nothing to do with this apart from the design.

I think the basis of most of your comments has been pretty reasonable, but grouping Rama with the actual buy runners is wrong.

Absolutely. Stating RAMA is the one to blame here is pretty ridiculous, though I also agree that one should be careful what projects they associate themselves with because they'll be held accountable whether they like it or not but how do you even know whom you can trust, really? Virtually everyone's had issues, everyone will have issues; it's just about magnitude at this point. He made a decision to allow them to use his design, people with no real issues in their dealings prior to this, saying him above all should be to blame... Yea.

What are artists supposed to do, then, realistically? RAMA had Massdrop deal with his M10 project for him and they ****ed it up so badly that he's now running the M6 by himself instead of relying on an actual vendor. He has a ton of cool designs for boards that haven't yet seen the light of day (M36, his HHKB case, etc) and without help he probably can't push them all out for us to gobble up. Are people supposed to just fend for themselves because associating with literally anyone else may damage their reputation beyond what you find reasonable, PancakeMSTR? If everyone is discredited as soon as something like this happens we no longer have a community, really, we just have people selling their own things.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1405 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:45:48 »
First of all, Rama gets a big point in my book for disassociating with massdrop.

- "Everyone's had issues, everyone will have issues": Yes, if you are referring to every project encountering problems. That is how the world works, and that will never change. It's how those problems are solved, and how the project as a whole is run that counts.

- RAMA absolutely cannot produce his designs without help, in one form or another. We all need help. Collaboration is integral to success (/corporate speak).

You know, Vigrith, it's a tough problem, really it is. How do you select a reliable production team? It's very hard.  Frankly I'm not even sure how I would approach the problem.

Our problem is the same as that of everyone else, we want to produce high quality goods cheaply and quickly. A key difference is that we don't have a big industry, or market, backing us.

And it is such.a.tough.problem. But if we want our keyboard world to be as good as it can be, we need to start imitating industry as much as we can. And we are trying to do that already, I know, with some success even.

But one of the key things is to truly run a project with a collaborative team. Something is wrong if we can say "oh he was just the designer, don't blame things on him" or "don't blame the leadership, the factory got it wrong." It means there are rifts and cracks within the team that must be closed. Every part of the group should not only care about, but have a stake in, how the project as a whole is performing.

You said it yourself, and I can't imagine anyone disagrees with the assessment that pretty much every group buy ever run has encountered serious problems. Well you know what? That's excellent, because we can learn from those problems. It means we have a wealth of information which we can use to course correct our future projects.

Fundamentally, we need to examine all the problems that have occurred in past group buys, and avoid them in the future.

Otherwise, what are we doing? We are just doing the same thing and expecting a different result, hoping for excellence by sheer probability. That approach is not sustainable and has no future.

For the record, I am not suggesting a universal, complete, and effective solution. What we as the keyboard community try to do is exceptionally difficult, and I do not know what the perfect path is and I assure you that if I somehow assumed leadership of the entire community I would make more mistakes on the first day than you could count on all your fingers and toes.

But, I've made my suggestion: Determine what's gone wrong, and don't repeat the mistakes.


As for RAMA, there is simply no going back from the reputation damage done by this project. That's not to say he couldn't repair his reputation, but the damage is done. And I will say it again, this is simply because his name attached to a project is no guarantee it will go, I don't know, smoothly I guess, as evinced specifically by the Exent. I was previously operating under the impression that his name meant something, and now I've seen that it does not, and that's the end of it. Plain and simple.

« Last Edit: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:53:13 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline codywanks

  • Posts: 201
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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1406 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:53:40 »
EXENT SMD LED REPAIR GUIDE

Please read this if you have received an Exent kit, or a tracking number for an Exent kit.

Sorry this was not published earlier.

_____________

Please fix the PCBs yourselves before shipment, regardless of the delay caused.

Can orders that haven't been shipped out yet have these issues resolved first by you guys even if it means putting that order to the back of the dispatch queue?

Having your blessing to allocate additional time towards further QC is much appreciated and does relieve some pressure. After all, the boards were rushed out for a reason.

The challenge will be differentiating those who want their boards hand-checked from those who no longer want to wait (almost an equal split judging from the forum posts & PM's I've received). This is something we will have to figure out.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1407 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 12:56:54 »
Thank you for posting an SMD repair guide. That is very useful.
   

Offline monkeyplusplus

  • Posts: 41
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1408 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 13:25:15 »
Since these are shipping, I'll start work on the Ortho PCB variant. Who else wanted one? Features and price kinda depend on interest. So far I'm making a simple 1u grid, onboard controller, and no backlighting. Might offer some 2u spacebar and numpad options and backlighting if there's enough interest.

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Offline neon_tom

  • Posts: 182
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1409 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 13:33:01 »
Since these are shipping, I'll start work on the Ortho PCB variant. Who else wanted one? Features and price kinda depend on interest. So far I'm making a simple 1u grid, onboard controller, and no backlighting. Might offer some 2u spacebar and numpad options and backlighting if there's enough interest.

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I like the sound of this. +1 for 2u spacebar.

Offline monkeyplusplus

  • Posts: 41
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1410 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 15:22:56 »
Was thinking of supporting these basic layouts:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/67ff3b23664de587b64d96b123185b2e

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Offline Gettys

  • Posts: 50
  • Location: SC
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1411 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 15:40:56 »
EXENT SMD LED REPAIR GUIDE

Please read this if you have received an Exent kit, or a tracking number for an Exent kit.

Sorry this was not published earlier.

_____________

Please fix the PCBs yourselves before shipment, regardless of the delay caused.

Can orders that haven't been shipped out yet have these issues resolved first by you guys even if it means putting that order to the back of the dispatch queue?

Having your blessing to allocate additional time towards further QC is much appreciated and does relieve some pressure. After all, the boards were rushed out for a reason.

The challenge will be differentiating those who want their boards hand-checked from those who no longer want to wait (almost an equal split judging from the forum posts & PM's I've received). This is something we will have to figure out.

Thanks for the guide, will come in useful if somethings not right when I receive my board.

Offline duynguyenle

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1412 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 15:43:16 »
Since these are shipping, I'll start work on the Ortho PCB variant. Who else wanted one? Features and price kinda depend on interest. So far I'm making a simple 1u grid, onboard controller, and no backlighting. Might offer some 2u spacebar and numpad options and backlighting if there's enough interest.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I suggest something similar to the XD75, which is pretty flexible in terms of layout, including two split ortho 'halves' with a numpad in the middle, as well as placements for a few different 2u spacebar options. I think this would offer a lot of flexibility (basically just one large grid with a few different positions possible for 2u spacebars on the bottom row.

@juahenza and co: would it be possible for you guys to share the plate files? Not only would it be useful for making ortho plates when this plans out, but it will also be useful for those of us planning to make our own exotic plate options (perhaps polycarbonate or CFRP plates. I know I can wait for my kit to get here, measure the plate and draw up my own, but for the sake of accuracy it would be great to get it straight from the source.

Also, it seems all of us who bought the premium kit seems to have drawn the short straw and will have to wait a lot longer for the keysets and such. Any reasonable estimates on when boards will start shipping out for us premium kits?
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Offline monkeyplusplus

  • Posts: 41
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1413 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 15:45:38 »
Since these are shipping, I'll start work on the Ortho PCB variant. Who else wanted one? Features and price kinda depend on interest. So far I'm making a simple 1u grid, onboard controller, and no backlighting. Might offer some 2u spacebar and numpad options and backlighting if there's enough interest.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I suggest something similar to the XD75, which is pretty flexible in terms of layout, including two split ortho 'halves' with a numpad in the middle, as well as placements for a few different 2u spacebar options. I think this would offer a lot of flexibility (basically just one large grid with a few different positions possible for 2u spacebars on the bottom row.

@juahenza and co: would it be possible for you guys to share the plate files? Not only would it be useful for making ortho plates when this plans out, but it will also be useful for those of us planning to make our own exotic plate options (perhaps polycarbonate or CFRP plates. I know I can wait for my kit to get here, measure the plate and draw up my own, but for the sake of accuracy it would be great to get it straight from the source.

Also, it seems all of us who bought the premium kit seems to have drawn the short straw and will have to wait a lot longer for the keysets and such. Any reasonable estimates on when boards will start shipping out for us premium kits?
I have the plate file straight from Rama. I'll ask him if he's ok with me sharing :)

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Offline gutsack

  • Posts: 175
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1414 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 15:46:44 »
No offense whatsoever meant, but could you take the conversation about creating a different PCB for the Extent into a separate IC thread so we don't lose the conversation here about all the various things going on with the current GB for Extent itself? Would be much appreciated.

Offline Marvellion

  • Posts: 117
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1415 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 16:33:58 »
No offense whatsoever meant, but could you take the conversation about creating a different PCB for the Extent into a separate IC thread so we don't lose the conversation here about all the various things going on with the current GB for Extent itself? Would be much appreciated.

It's not like there are going to be hundreds of replies, creating another thread would make a lot of people miss the ortho stuff.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 November 2017, 18:24:22 by Marvellion »

Offline yuktsi

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1416 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 18:10:01 »
Was thinking of supporting these basic layouts:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/67ff3b23664de587b64d96b123185b2e

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Send me a PM, I will provide you with the files required. Thanks


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Offline KingRama

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1417 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 19:00:04 »


To answer your questions:

Juahenza commissioned a design with Rama. It dates back a lot further than you think (originally called the M67, and first publicly teased August 2016). Juahenza chose Rama, not the other way around. Rama has absolutely nothing to do with this apart from the design.

I think the basis of most of your comments has been pretty reasonable, but grouping Rama with the actual buy runners is wrong.

If RAMA was so hands-off with the buy, he probably should have objected to being included in all the marketing.

Show Image


I mean for ****s sake, RAMA is engraved on the bottom. Let's call a spade a spade here: all these guys wanted their names on it because they thought it was going to be a slam dunk. Now that it's not, Sherry and RAMA especially want to separate themselves from it.

Doesn't work that way. In the future keep in mind if it bears your name, people will remember you for it good or bad.


Actually, I had nothing to do with that, I handed off the original design, it was modified and all the names where added. Past the initial design I had no input whatsoever. I presented a concept, then it was taken.
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Offline TerryMathews

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1418 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 20:51:44 »


To answer your questions:

Juahenza commissioned a design with Rama. It dates back a lot further than you think (originally called the M67, and first publicly teased August 2016). Juahenza chose Rama, not the other way around. Rama has absolutely nothing to do with this apart from the design.

I think the basis of most of your comments has been pretty reasonable, but grouping Rama with the actual buy runners is wrong.

If RAMA was so hands-off with the buy, he probably should have objected to being included in all the marketing.

Show Image


I mean for ****s sake, RAMA is engraved on the bottom. Let's call a spade a spade here: all these guys wanted their names on it because they thought it was going to be a slam dunk. Now that it's not, Sherry and RAMA especially want to separate themselves from it.

Doesn't work that way. In the future keep in mind if it bears your name, people will remember you for it good or bad.


Actually, I had nothing to do with that, I handed off the original design, it was modified and all the names where added. Past the initial design I had no input whatsoever. I presented a concept, then it was taken.

Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

Offline KingRama

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1419 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 21:03:36 »


To answer your questions:

Juahenza commissioned a design with Rama. It dates back a lot further than you think (originally called the M67, and first publicly teased August 2016). Juahenza chose Rama, not the other way around. Rama has absolutely nothing to do with this apart from the design.

I think the basis of most of your comments has been pretty reasonable, but grouping Rama with the actual buy runners is wrong.

If RAMA was so hands-off with the buy, he probably should have objected to being included in all the marketing.

Show Image


I mean for ****s sake, RAMA is engraved on the bottom. Let's call a spade a spade here: all these guys wanted their names on it because they thought it was going to be a slam dunk. Now that it's not, Sherry and RAMA especially want to separate themselves from it.

Doesn't work that way. In the future keep in mind if it bears your name, people will remember you for it good or bad.


Actually, I had nothing to do with that, I handed off the original design, it was modified and all the names where added. Past the initial design I had no input whatsoever. I presented a concept, then it was taken.

Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

My involvement, since the beginning has always been the same, nothing has changed - there's nothing to contest. I designed the original board, that's my involvement  ???
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Offline dead_pixel_design

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1420 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 21:05:27 »
Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

Designers typically aren't partners on a project, just contributors that submit their design and then are not longer involved.

Offline Vigrith

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1421 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 21:07:07 »
Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

It might have something to do with not wanting to be a **** and publicly dissociate (or something akin that) himself from a project that tons of people were/are excited about. Easy to talk **** about someone's decision making after the fact, keeping things civil even when it goes south behind the curtains shows a high level of professionalism - needless to say throwing others under the bus does not. He designed the board this was based upon. That's what's always been said to the best of my knowledge, from the beginning.

Being sly and taking jabs like that when you have absolutely zero knowledge of what actually happened is not only unfair but it also makes you look silly. Not everyone changes team whenever **** hits the proverbial fan, assuming that's the case is more telling of your own personal experiences and your character than it does of what should be the norm. Believe it or not some people still properly weigh their decisions before acting rashly and try and do what's right.

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 506
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1422 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 23:25:25 »
"Made by TARO." It's right in the title.

Back in January, this was supposed to be some sort of supergroup a la Cream making a great 65%. Things go south, and all the sudden it's "Hey man, it's not my baby."

How can you honestly look at the opening posts and the marketing materials and not come to the conclusion that all these guys are involved?

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1423 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 23:31:44 »
Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

It might have something to do with not wanting to be a **** and publicly dissociate (or something akin that) himself from a project that tons of people were/are excited about. Easy to talk **** about someone's decision making after the fact, keeping things civil even when it goes south behind the curtains shows a high level of professionalism - needless to say throwing others under the bus does not. He designed the board this was based upon. That's what's always been said to the best of my knowledge, from the beginning.

Being sly and taking jabs like that when you have absolutely zero knowledge of what actually happened is not only unfair but it also makes you look silly. Not everyone changes team whenever **** hits the proverbial fan, assuming that's the case is more telling of your own personal experiences and your character than it does of what should be the norm. Believe it or not some people still properly weigh their decisions before acting rashly and try and do what's right.

Except...that's kinda what it looks like is happening. A marked disassociation. "My role was just barely this tiny..." etc.

And still, it changes exactly **** all.
   

Offline gnarlsagan

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1424 on: Wed, 22 November 2017, 23:39:47 »
Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

It might have something to do with not wanting to be a **** and publicly dissociate (or something akin that) himself from a project that tons of people were/are excited about. Easy to talk **** about someone's decision making after the fact, keeping things civil even when it goes south behind the curtains shows a high level of professionalism - needless to say throwing others under the bus does not. He designed the board this was based upon. That's what's always been said to the best of my knowledge, from the beginning.

Being sly and taking jabs like that when you have absolutely zero knowledge of what actually happened is not only unfair but it also makes you look silly. Not everyone changes team whenever **** hits the proverbial fan, assuming that's the case is more telling of your own personal experiences and your character than it does of what should be the norm. Believe it or not some people still properly weigh their decisions before acting rashly and try and do what's right.

Except...that's kinda what it looks like is happening. A marked disassociation. "My role was just barely this tiny..." etc.

And still, it changes exactly **** all.

I share your concerns. The issues are being addressed. This line of commentary is no longer constructive. Let's wait for continued updates.

Offline amnesia0287

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1425 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 00:25:57 »
Point is, you didn't contest your involvement 11 months ago. I wonder what changed between then and now...

It might have something to do with not wanting to be a **** and publicly dissociate (or something akin that) himself from a project that tons of people were/are excited about. Easy to talk **** about someone's decision making after the fact, keeping things civil even when it goes south behind the curtains shows a high level of professionalism - needless to say throwing others under the bus does not. He designed the board this was based upon. That's what's always been said to the best of my knowledge, from the beginning.

Being sly and taking jabs like that when you have absolutely zero knowledge of what actually happened is not only unfair but it also makes you look silly. Not everyone changes team whenever **** hits the proverbial fan, assuming that's the case is more telling of your own personal experiences and your character than it does of what should be the norm. Believe it or not some people still properly weigh their decisions before acting rashly and try and do what's right.

Except...that's kinda what it looks like is happening. A marked disassociation. "My role was just barely this tiny..." etc.

And still, it changes exactly **** all.

In all seriousness do you understand what a designer does? RAMA isn’t a pcb Engineer. He probably wasn’t even involved with the pcb process to begin with. He designed keyboard case/plate.

You act like there’s is some concept of a “RAMA approved” pcb. There isn’t. Designers are responsible for how things look and generally function/assemble. RAMAs part of the pcb process would simply be to provide requirements. X layouts. X dimensions. Etc. 


Online Wilba

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1426 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 00:31:40 »
In all seriousness do you understand what a designer does? RAMA isn’t a pcb Engineer. He probably wasn’t even involved with the pcb process to begin with. He designed keyboard case/plate.

You act like there’s is some concept of a “RAMA approved” pcb. There isn’t. Designers are responsible for how things look and generally function/assemble. RAMAs part of the pcb process would simply be to provide requirements. X layouts. X dimensions. Etc. 

More like "RAMA make a case that works around this PCB kthxbai"  :D


Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 506
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1427 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 00:39:10 »
In all seriousness do you understand what a designer does? RAMA isn’t a pcb Engineer. He probably wasn’t even involved with the pcb process to begin with. He designed keyboard case/plate.

You act like there’s is some concept of a “RAMA approved” pcb. There isn’t. Designers are responsible for how things look and generally function/assemble. RAMAs part of the pcb process would simply be to provide requirements. X layouts. X dimensions. Etc. 

More like "RAMA make a case that works around this PCB kthxbai"  :D

You are missing the point - I don't know whether it's intentional or not.

RAMA can (and should have) taken a greater interest in the project that bears his name. They all should have.

Could RAMA have designed the PCB? No. No one is saying he should have. RAMA should have said though: "Hey, this project has my name on it, and I have a reputation for perfection. I don't want to be associated with a project shipping defective PCBs. Please correct prior to shipment."

You four have created your respective brands - and they obviously have value or Juahenza wouldn't have felt the need to plaster them everywhere. Take better care of them.

Offline amnesia0287

  • Formerly Amnesia
  • Posts: 1174
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1428 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 01:05:29 »
In all seriousness do you understand what a designer does? RAMA isn’t a pcb Engineer. He probably wasn’t even involved with the pcb process to begin with. He designed keyboard case/plate.

You act like there’s is some concept of a “RAMA approved” pcb. There isn’t. Designers are responsible for how things look and generally function/assemble. RAMAs part of the pcb process would simply be to provide requirements. X layouts. X dimensions. Etc. 

More like "RAMA make a case that works around this PCB kthxbai"  :D

You are missing the point - I don't know whether it's intentional or not.

RAMA can (and should have) taken a greater interest in the project that bears his name. They all should have.

Could RAMA have designed the PCB? No. No one is saying he should have. RAMA should have said though: "Hey, this project has my name on it, and I have a reputation for perfection. I don't want to be associated with a project shipping defective PCBs. Please correct prior to shipment."

You four have created your respective brands - and they obviously have value or Juahenza wouldn't have felt the need to plaster them everywhere. Take better care of them.

So now we want designers doing QA on PCBs?

What exactly do you think RAMA could have done to change this current situation? The DESIGN of the PCB is sound if it really is fixed with a reflow. What would make you think the designer would be involved now? Especially if the other peoples statements are true and this was was a commission. RAMA probably wasn't even aware some PCBs had issues until you started name dropping him. And regardless, what is it you think he could do? Someone bought a design from him. They would have no obligation to notify him of any issues to begin with, but even if they had, do you think he could just magically demand that they fix the PCBs "OR ELSE!!!" and then situation fixed just "cause RAMA said so"?

I do however think RAMA would do himself a service if he created a separate label to differentiate commissions from stuff he sells himself. I would expect him to hold a great deal more responsibility for the M6-A. I'm not actually sure which way M65 goes. I dunno if RAMA was involved throughout or if JChan did the more of it or what, regardless, it would benefit rama to make it more clear what products hes involved with end to end and what products are just commission designs to avoid situations like this.

But again, I think you like the other guy are still not understanding what a designer does.

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 506
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1429 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 01:37:29 »
In all seriousness do you understand what a designer does? RAMA isn’t a pcb Engineer. He probably wasn’t even involved with the pcb process to begin with. He designed keyboard case/plate.

You act like there’s is some concept of a “RAMA approved” pcb. There isn’t. Designers are responsible for how things look and generally function/assemble. RAMAs part of the pcb process would simply be to provide requirements. X layouts. X dimensions. Etc. 

More like "RAMA make a case that works around this PCB kthxbai"  :D

You are missing the point - I don't know whether it's intentional or not.

RAMA can (and should have) taken a greater interest in the project that bears his name. They all should have.

Could RAMA have designed the PCB? No. No one is saying he should have. RAMA should have said though: "Hey, this project has my name on it, and I have a reputation for perfection. I don't want to be associated with a project shipping defective PCBs. Please correct prior to shipment."

You four have created your respective brands - and they obviously have value or Juahenza wouldn't have felt the need to plaster them everywhere. Take better care of them.

So now we want designers doing QA on PCBs?

What exactly do you think RAMA could have done to change this current situation? The DESIGN of the PCB is sound if it really is fixed with a reflow. What would make you think the designer would be involved now? Especially if the other peoples statements are true and this was was a commission. RAMA probably wasn't even aware some PCBs had issues until you started name dropping him. And regardless, what is it you think he could do? Someone bought a design from him. They would have no obligation to notify him of any issues to begin with, but even if they had, do you think he could just magically demand that they fix the PCBs "OR ELSE!!!" and then situation fixed just "cause RAMA said so"?

I do however think RAMA would do himself a service if he created a separate label to differentiate commissions from stuff he sells himself. I would expect him to hold a great deal more responsibility for the M6-A. I'm not actually sure which way M65 goes. I dunno if RAMA was involved throughout or if JChan did the more of it or what, regardless, it would benefit rama to make it more clear what products hes involved with end to end and what products are just commission designs to avoid situations like this.

But again, I think you like the other guy are still not understanding what a designer does.

I understand perfectly what a designer does, thank you. My point, which you are I assume at this point being willfully ignorant of, is that Juahenza represented these people (TGR, Aconic, RAMA, Sherry) to be more involved in the project than you obviously were at this point.

I, and I know others based on the comments, assumed made by TARO meant you four were involved in the GB. Clearly based on the responses during this post-mortem that is not the case but we shouldn't have needed to get to month 11 to make that determination.

You touched on the point I'm making, but then you dismiss it out of hand - and I really wonder if maybe it is you who is not getting it. If you allow your name to be put on something, you become associated with that thing. That is the reality we live in. If the marketing materials said "Design by RAMA." I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But let's look at Juahenza's own words:

This will be the most exciting keyboard of 2017, which grew from a 2-person project, to a collaborative effort of a group of keyboard hobbyists. At the time of writing, the CNC machine in the factory are working hard on the first Exent prototype. Excited as a kid on Christmas day, I am proud to share with you, Exent.

Combine that with "Made by TARO" and the logos of the four brands on every marketing picture and engraved on the bottom of every unit and I don't see how you can honestly claim that I'm failing to understand the situation. The reality is that the involvement of at least one, probably two partners is grossly overstated.

Where in my post did I say I wanted RAMA doing QC on PCBs? Let's please keep the straw men out of the discussion.

Offline amnesia0287

  • Formerly Amnesia
  • Posts: 1174
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1430 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 01:40:13 »
Where in my post did I say I wanted RAMA doing QC on PCBs? Let's please keep the straw men out of the discussion.

When you assumed RAMA was somehow a PCB whisperer and KNEW there was an issue with the PCB to begin with.

EDIT: To be more clear... QC is how you determine that a PCB is flawed. You are holding RAMA responsible for QUALITY CONTROL which means you expect him to be handing the QC of PCBs. The design IS NOT flawed (based on the provided info) and not all boards are flawed. This is not a design issue. It's not as if RAMA is there shipping them out. He has no power to stop anything. You are wanting to him to have done something he does not have the ability to do. "If you don't fix the PCB's I'll never sell you a design again" is not really very threatening. And again, you are making an assumption that anyone told him they were flawed to begin with.

« Last Edit: Thu, 23 November 2017, 01:46:30 by Amnesia »

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 506
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1431 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 01:58:05 »
Where in my post did I say I wanted RAMA doing QC on PCBs? Let's please keep the straw men out of the discussion.

When you assumed RAMA was somehow a PCB whisperer and KNEW there was an issue with the PCB to begin with.

EDIT: To be more clear... QC is how you determine that a PCB is flawed. You are holding RAMA responsible for QUALITY CONTROL which means you expect him to be handing the QC of PCBs. The design IS NOT flawed (based on the provided info) and not all boards are flawed. This is not a design issue. It's not as if RAMA is there shipping them out. He has no power to stop anything. You are wanting to him to have done something he does not have the ability to do.

Me: The structure of the organization doesn't match how it's described.
You: But you can't hold RAMA responsible for a PCB issue, he didn't make it.
Me: I know. My point is that the marketing materials make it appear he's actually involved with the GB.
You: But RAMA can't QC the PCB, he didn't have anything to do with it.

I am not contesting RAMA's actual role within the project. I am pointing out that a 4 group collaborative effort, really is not.

If this were a true collaboration, the 4 members would've discussed and agreed on a course of action regarding the PCBs that need some level of rework.

"If you don't fix the PCB's I'll never sell you a design again" is not really very threatening. And again, you are making an assumption that anyone told him they were flawed to begin with.

But that's exactly what should happen. Why would any business person continue to do business with someone who damages their brand and reputation?
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 November 2017, 02:09:07 by TerryMathews »

Online Wilba

  • * Maker
  • Posts: 332
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    • wilba.tech
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1432 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 02:45:51 »
I am not contesting RAMA's actual role within the project. I am pointing out that a 4 group collaborative effort, really is not.

If this were a true collaboration, the 4 members would've discussed and agreed on a course of action regarding the PCBs that need some level of rework.

By your rationale, all collaborations are equal in authority, effort, financial investment, profit distribution, responsibilities and accountability.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.


Offline chuckdee

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1252
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1433 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 07:07:04 »
RAMA had Massdrop deal with his M10 project for him and they ****ed it up so badly that he's now running the M6 by himself instead of relying on an actual vendor.

How did Massdrop mess up with that one?  The only thing I can see is the configurator issue, i.e.

Quote
I posted on RAMA facebook page. They said that the software developer went awol and they will be releasing something new to replace the configurator.

From RAMA:
Quote
Been trying to get into contact with Machine Industries for the past few weeks with no avail, hoping he touches base soon with an update for us.

So I'm not sure how Massdrop messed it up in this case- unless they were the ones that recommended MI?
Clueboard Gateron Browns| RS Ver.b Gateron Browns| Custom JD45 MX Browns
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Offline rmendis

  • Posts: 274
  • Artisan addict
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1434 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 12:32:29 »
Hi There!

Is there a status of shipment by order? Like in a google sheet or something?

Thanks!

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1435 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 14:42:59 »
Looking up the tracking number paypal sent me still yields no results.
   

Offline yuktsi

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1436 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 15:09:39 »
Looking up the tracking number paypal sent me still yields no results.
Just checked, it does. PMed you the tracking in case you didn’t have the right one.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Offline Gettys

  • Posts: 50
  • Location: SC
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1437 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 15:26:54 »
Any idea when we will hear back about the grey kits?

Offline rmendis

  • Posts: 274
  • Artisan addict
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1438 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 15:45:40 »
Looking up the tracking number paypal sent me still yields no results.
Just checked, it does. PMed you the tracking in case you didn’t have the right one.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi @yuktsi!

Is there a way for us to find out the status of our order? I sent a PM, but did not get a response.

Many thanks! =)

Offline Dylan

  • Posts: 20
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1439 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 18:40:36 »
Also just curious how well the grey kits are holding up. Worst case scenario if nothing can be done to fix what are our options?

Offline krispy

  • Posts: 57
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1440 on: Thu, 23 November 2017, 23:34:16 »
Also, it seems all of us who bought the premium kit seems to have drawn the short straw and will have to wait a lot longer for the keysets and such. Any reasonable estimates on when boards will start shipping out for us premium kits?

I'm also interested in getting a reasonable date for premium kits (with keyset) to start shipping. Has anyone heard anything?

Offline dead_pixel_design

  • Posts: 586
  • Location: Portland, OR
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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1441 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 00:09:20 »
Also, it seems all of us who bought the premium kit seems to have drawn the short straw and will have to wait a lot longer for the keysets and such. Any reasonable estimates on when boards will start shipping out for us premium kits?

I'm also interested in getting a reasonable date for premium kits (with keyset) to start shipping. Has anyone heard anything?

I think it is all going to be dependent on what color/features you got. No one has heard anything though

Offline Cerasis

  • Posts: 114
  • Location: Philippines
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1442 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 07:02:00 »
Have you received all the alu bottoms yet and are they going to be anodized soon?
Bantam44 | M0116 | Miuni32 | EXENT | Un-novatouch'd Novatouch to be fixed

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 405
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1443 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 09:57:48 »
Looking up the tracking number paypal sent me still yields no results.
Just checked, it does. PMed you the tracking in case you didn’t have the right one.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Finally got it figured out. Thanks. I did have the right one fyi.
   

Offline demorior

  • Posts: 73
  • Location: San Diego, CA
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1444 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 11:21:14 »
what shipping service is it for USA orders? my tracking number didn't yield any search results.

Offline Data

  • Posts: 2587
  • Location: Orlando, FL
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1445 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 23:37:15 »
what shipping service is it for USA orders? my tracking number didn't yield any search results.
Someone mentioned S.F. Express but I haven't been able to see any results with that carrier across a couple of different tracking sites.

Offline rmendis

  • Posts: 274
  • Artisan addict
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1446 on: Sat, 25 November 2017, 12:25:00 »
Have all us orders shipped out? I can't get any response from the gb runners and no update to paypal.


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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1447 on: Sat, 25 November 2017, 12:29:42 »
Have all us orders shipped out? I can't get any response from the gb runners and no update to paypal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as I can tell only some of the basic kits have shipped. They don't have the aluminum bottoms yet (as far as I can tell) so I don't think any of those kits have shipped.

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Offline Vigrith

  • Posts: 1341
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1448 on: Sat, 25 November 2017, 12:39:33 »
Have all us orders shipped out? I can't get any response from the gb runners and no update to paypal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty sure the ONLY orders that have shipped thus far have been the basic kits containing 1. polycarb bottoms, 2. standard feet, 3. alu plates and nothing else. Everything else isn't ready (produced) and/or hasn't been packed.

Offline rmendis

  • Posts: 274
  • Artisan addict
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1449 on: Sat, 25 November 2017, 12:43:56 »
Have all us orders shipped out? I can't get any response from the gb runners and no update to paypal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty sure the ONLY orders that have shipped thus far have been the basic kits containing 1. polycarb bottoms, 2. standard feet, 3. alu plates and nothing else. Everything else isn't ready (produced) and/or hasn't been packed.

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, the PayPal invoice doesn't list line items (at least it doesn't any longer). I found a $250 charge, so I assume I bought a basic kit with an extra PCB. No tracking number or shipping notification, though.

There is no spreadsheet to track orders, like Duck does, and zero support from the GB runners. Pretty darn disappointing, to say the least.