Author Topic: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)  (Read 312016 times)

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Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1550 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:29:51 »
That Polycarb bottom looks overtightened to me, no way that can be a transit damaged.

Take this as a lesson and be more careful next time when you build a keyboard my friend.

Are you suggesting I did it? This is how the keyboard arrived, out of the box. The foot was already attached, and not by me.

« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:33:46 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline demorior

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1551 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:36:29 »
That Polycarb bottom looks overtightened to me, no way that can be a transit damaged.

Take this as a lesson and be more careful next time when you build a keyboard my friend.
the polycarb bottoms come already attached and tightened to the boards. entirely possible that it came broken.

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1552 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:36:52 »

[snip]


EDIT: upon further inspection it looks like screw overtightening... the screws don't come tightened, so i've heard from a few people

looks like he just ****ed up and wants yutski to fix it

This is not true. If I had done this to the keyboard myself, I would have taken complete responsibility. I don't know how other people's boards arrived, but this is how I received mine, period. I would not come here and lie.

Jesus I really should have videoed opening the box. I'm sorry that in my excitement to see a keyboard I've been waiting for for ten months I didn't take the time to setup a camera. Next time I will.

It came assembled, with the foot attached to the polycarb, the switch plate bolted to the aluminum case, the PCB sandwhiched between the top case and polycarb bottom, and with the polycarb bottom attached to the aluminum top case.

That is how I received it, out of the box. I then carefully removed the four screws holding the polycarb bottom to the aluminum top. I think I inspected the aluminum parts and then at some point a little later, 5 maybe 10 minutes, noticed the cracks.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:41:19 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline dead_pixel_design

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1553 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 15:39:05 »
That Polycarb bottom looks overtightened to me, no way that can be a transit damaged.

Take this as a lesson and be more careful next time when you build a keyboard my friend.

Pancakemaster can be kind of a **** but I don't believe he is lying about this.

Regardless I really hope all issues get addressed and we see fewer and fewer issues upon delivery.

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1554 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 16:22:41 »
I don't know what else to say about the polycarb. It came broken. I am not interested in cheating anyone out of anything, and I am not the type of person to not accept responsibility for his actions or mistakes. I did not crack the polycarbonate.

Meanwhile, I'm still unable to get a single LED to light up. Tried reflowing a few more leads that looked suspect, but no dice. This should put to rest the statement of Yuktsi's that they didn't ship boards with no LEDs working, because that is how mine came, and is still behaving. Though, to be fair, the PCB was shipped completely loose between the top and the bottom of the keyboard, so maybe it was damaged in shipping. But this means they should have packed it better, and doesn't fundamentally change the responsible party.

Additionally, I've been looking closely at the PCB and noticed some pads without components. Now I don't know if this is deliberate, but I thought I'd mention it in case that's the problem. I've attached an album of these spots on the PCB, as well as a photo of the PCB plugged in with the bootloader open. I'm on slow internet right now but I can post a video of me trying to get the thing to light up later.

Meanwhile, Album: https://imgur.com/a/ouPxw

Additionally, I've found an LED that looks in extremely bad shape. What do I do? Should I remove it? Or do I need to replace it outright? Or do I have to remove it and then jump the position, e.g. solder leads in so that it doesn't "break the chain" or whatever?

Yeah I'm looking at this LED under a microscope (literally) right now and it's absolutely wrecked. I can't actually tell if the leads are broken, but it sure looks a mess. I'll take a picture later and post it. It is the one circled in my imgur album.

So yeah, what's my next step here with this bad LED?

« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 16:45:13 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1555 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 16:49:47 »
Again speaking to Yuktsi and Juahenza:

I continue to have a cracked polycarbonate bottom (that, regardless of how or when it happened, was delivered to me this way, with the foot attached, cracked), missing screws, and a PCB with no functional LEDs, despite my best efforts (e.g. reflowing leads, twice now).

These parts need replacing.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 16:52:21 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline dead_pixel_design

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1556 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 17:00:11 »
I wonder if the poly bottom could have cracked because of temperature changes in transit?

It really does look like it was just over tightened when they put it together; I would think you would hear it crack or at the very least see it before packaging. I'm sure it must have happened during shipping.

Regardless I hope you get it replaced.

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1557 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 17:06:06 »
I wonder if the poly bottom could have cracked because of temperature changes in transit?

It really does look like it was just over tightened when they put it together; I would think you would hear it crack or at the very least see it before packaging. I'm sure it must have happened during shipping.

Regardless I hope you get it replaced.

Interesting thought, that seems possible to me. Doesn't help that steel and polycarb have wildly different coefficients of thermal expansion.

See: https://www.eskade.pl/en,polycarbonate,parameters.html

In that case, they really really shouldn't be shipping these things with the foot bolted to the polycarb. That should happen on arrival by the end user.

I hope I get it replaced too, I really do. That's all I want,  to have the polycarb replaced and the PCB fixed or replaced, and I'm honestly really broken up about it. All the more upsetting that people are accusing me of lying.

Without question  the aluminum top is absolutely nothing short of spectacular, which makes it all the more important to me to get this thing perfect.


« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 17:10:05 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Online TerryMathews

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1558 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 18:49:02 »
If I may, there is one explanation that satisfies the situation assuming no one is lying.

1) Pancake - it came this way
2) Yutski - we don't tighten the screws down

So if we've got a weight loosely screwed into the bottom, so that there is movement allowed then you could've transformed the assembly into a form of a slide hammer.

Picture the screw as the end of the hammer and the weight as the pull, working on the acrylic layer. How many bounces, how many tosses would be needed to crack that acrylic?

Thermal expansion is another likely explanation and these could go together. Shipping them assembled is probably not a great idea.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 20:39:36 by TerryMathews »

Offline N3RDLY

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1559 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 19:32:11 »
Just for reference, I've linked in this comment to some pictures of the box (I didn't take the time to timestamp them, but I will if that's a serious point of contention). Looks in pretty decent shape to me, and the foam the keyboard was packed in is perfect (again, if this is a serious point of contention I'll photograph that as well). I can't even imagine the kind of trauma the box would have had to have gone through to produce those cracks in the polycarbonate, it just doesn't make sense to me. My keyboard was shipped broken.

Pictures of box: https://imgur.com/a/Y4kt8

I'm going to see if I have some suitable polycarbonate scrap lying around to do some testing with.

It's almost like the post office overtightened the screws!

THOSE MONSTERS. Should have used DHL next time I hear they don't over tighten screws after it was delivered. I feel bad for TARO having to deal with people who try to screw their pcbs into China.

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1560 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 20:03:37 »
If I may, there is one explanation that satisfies the situation assuming no one is lying.

1) Pancake - it came this way
2) Yutski - we don't tighten the screws down

So if we've got a weight loosely screwed into the bottom, so that there is movement allowed then you could've transformed the assembly into a form of
Show Image
.

Picture the screw as the end of the hammer and the weight as the pull, working on the acrylic layer. How many bounces, how many tosses would be needed to crack that acrylic?

Thermal expansion is another likely explanation and these could go together. Shipping them assembled is probably not a great idea.

I think I understand what you're saying. So the foot wasn't loose, as far as I recall. It wasn't just flopping around, it seemed to be reasonably solidly attached. I literally didn't touch the screws until after I noticed the cracking.

I purchased some Lexan and M3 screws on amazon today. I am going to do some testing to try and get an idea of what kind of torque is required to crack polycarbonate.

To suggest someone is lying is a very serious allegation (not that you, specifically, are Terry). I do not know what caused the cracks in my polycarbonate bottom, but it wasn't me.

I have been completely transparent about what has happened in my case. I have provided multiple pictures, and I will provide more or video on request.

I am doing testing, being as transparent as I can be, etc because I understand that this is an environment in which scammers are difficult or impossible to expose. I can't even express how sorry I am that I didn't film my unboxing of the keyboard, I'm absolutely depressed over it.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 20:05:59 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline yuktsi

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1561 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 20:21:58 »
Anyway, we will look into the issues with the polycarbonate bottom and PCB.


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Offline Pwner

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1562 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 21:06:05 »
I've seen another instance of a cracked bottom but the buyer is fine with it.

Anyway you can just ship mostly un-assembled?

Offline Vigrith

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1563 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 21:12:24 »
I've seen another instance of a cracked bottom but the buyer is fine with it.

Anyway you can just ship mostly un-assembled?

I would like to second the request - if addressing the problem is as simple as not sending feet et al screwed in I'm all for that being the case once my premium kit ships.

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1564 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 21:13:30 »
Anyway, we will look into the issues with the polycarbonate bottom and PCB.


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What does this mean with regards to getting a replacement for the cracked bottom I received? I wasn't afforded the option to have my keyboard shipped disassembled, or aware for that matter that having it shipped disassembled might have not resulted in a cracked bottom.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 21:15:55 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline aeryxz

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1565 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 21:55:53 »
Iíll check mine tomorrow if itís cracked


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Online Minha

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1566 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 22:06:30 »
Anyway, we will look into the issues with the polycarbonate bottom and PCB.


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What does this mean with regards to getting a replacement for the cracked bottom I received? I wasn't afforded the option to have my keyboard shipped disassembled, or aware for that matter that having it shipped disassembled might have not resulted in a cracked bottom.

nigga did u try to skate on it?

Offline mike873

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1567 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 22:56:07 »
Is this bottom-row layout possible on the Exent?

https://imgur.com/GVIZNKJ

No if fine. I will otherwise go for 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 2.25, 1.25, 2.75, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1, 1 bottom row.

Offline ghostjuggernaut

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1568 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 23:10:55 »
Is this bottom-row layout possible on the Exent?

https://imgur.com/GVIZNKJ

No if fine. I will otherwise go for 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 2.25, 1.25, 2.75, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1, 1 bottom row.

Without seeing the PCB to verify, based on the plate photos and the images in the OP it looks like it would support it. 

I dont have one to confirm though.

edit:  well nvm, idk if 1.5 1.5 will work, OP has 1u it looks like.

Going off of catweewee's photos https://imgur.com/a/p0HkI looks like there are quite a few options so you could probably get it pretty close.

« Last Edit: Sat, 02 December 2017, 23:16:12 by ghostjuggernaut »
               

Offline mike873

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1569 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 23:27:20 »
Is this bottom-row layout possible on the Exent?

https://imgur.com/GVIZNKJ

No is fine. I will otherwise go for 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 2.25, 1.25, 2.75, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1, 1 bottom row.

Without seeing the PCB to verify, based on the plate photos and the images in the OP it looks like it would support it. 

I dont have one to confirm though.

edit:  well nvm, idk if 1.5 1.5 will work, OP has 1u it looks like.

Going off of catweewee's photos https://imgur.com/a/p0HkI looks like there are quite a few options so you could probably get it pretty close.

Show Image


I saw the 1.5/1.5 layout on the layouts section of the OP.

Offline kacase

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[GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1570 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 01:54:48 »
PancakeMSTRís theory of the different thermal expansion coefficients is quite interesting and could explain the cracks.

As stainless steel does expand and contract a lot less than polycarbonate when temperatures change, the strain caused perpendicular to the screws could be enough to cause those cracks.

The higher the temperature changes, the higher the strain. If the keyboards are assembled in a relatively warm country at letís assume 30 degrees Celsius and shipped by plane with temperatures of less than -30, the temperature difference would be at least 60kelvin.

A quick calculation for Stainless Steel shows that the Stainless Steel part would contract about 0.5mm while the polycarbonate contracts about 1.5mm

I am not sure how much space there is between the screws and the holes, but it is quite likely that it is a lot less than the 1mm in difference that is the result of thermal contraction.

If you guys are interested I can do a full calculation and document it, so you can follow it; also taking into account the strain caused on the carbonate and the safety factor before they break.


In any case I would suggest not shipping the feet attached to the polycarb bottoms anymore.
Shipping connected parts with different thermal expansion coefficients is a very common reason for damage even with industrial appliances.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 December 2017, 01:58:07 by kacase »
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Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1571 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:01:11 »
PancakeMSTR’s theory of the different thermal expansion coefficients is quite interesting and could explain the cracks.

As stainless steel does expand and contract a lot less than polycarbonate when temperatures change, the strain caused perpendicular to the screws could be enough to cause those cracks.

The higher the temperature changes, the higher the strain. If the keyboards are assembled in a relatively warm country at let’s assume 30 degrees Celsius and shipped by plane with temperatures of less than -30, the temperature difference would be at least 60kelvin.

A quick calculation for Stainless Steel shows that the Stainless Steel part would contract about 0.5mm while the polycarbonate contracts about 1.5mm

I am not sure how much space there is between the screws and the holes, but it is quite likely that it is a lot less than the 1mm in difference that is the result of thermal contraction.

If you guys are interested I can do a full calculation and document it, so you can follow it; also taking into account the strain caused on the carbonate and the safety factor before they break.


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I'd be interested in hearing an expansion of yours on, well I guess, the thermal expansion and associated stresses the polycarbonate and steel could have gone through in shipping. And it was assembled in the Philippines right? It's 26C there as of writing this comment.

Also, it was in fact Terry Mathews who initially brought up the thermal expansion idea.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:07:58 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1572 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:41:51 »
i'm no engineer, but i bugged a friend who is about this a bit earlier, here's some paraphrasing

thermal coefficient theory is pretty bogus, most airplane windows are polycarbonate (albeit probably a higher grade), and besides, those are clearly radial fractures from over-tightening or an object puncture, not temperature damage

thermal fracturing would split the whole piece in half, not fracture locally like in these pictures

i've shipped/recieved lots of polycarb parts overseas, both by boat and by air, and it has always comes out fine -- look at the TGR A.17, for example, or the polycarb duck viper cases

i've heard from 4 people now (including pancake) of similar cracking (radial fractures around the screw closest to the USB port, and one ****ed corner)

i doubt it was anything malicious, that just doesn't fit with the rest of the puzzle

i'm sure yutski is looking into it and will offer an explanation once it's solved

above all, this is devolving into a ****show and i'm gonna stay out of this for a few days until further updates are provided
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Offline alexfry

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1573 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:47:15 »
This is actually half the reason I wanted to be in this group buy.

The complicated issues involved with producing actual physical objects, then moving them around the planet, at any sort of scale, are fascinating.
It's easy to sort of assume, from an outsider layman's perspective, that all of this stuff is as easy as knocking something out in a 3D app, and sending it to the printer/CNC machine.

Are these issues surprising? Not really, this is in reality a 1st run. There are going to be issues. Issues that can be worked through, but issues.
The Rama M10-A seemed to have various manufacturing niggles along the way, but even as a casual observer, I felt like I had a better grip on what was going on.

The bit I find disappointing is despite this being defended as a "community project", there has been much opportunity for "community" involvement. It's been very much us and them. I can't help but think everyone would be more understanding if we actually felt involved, but it's become a customer vs company vibe, which is a bummer.

The material expansion sleuthing is cool, I just wish it wasn't in isolation.

Offline amnesia0287

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1574 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 04:28:25 »
i'm no engineer, but i bugged a friend who is about this a bit earlier, here's some paraphrasing

thermal coefficient theory is pretty bogus, most airplane windows are polycarbonate (albeit probably a higher grade), and besides, those are clearly radial fractures from over-tightening or an object puncture, not temperature damage

thermal fracturing would split the whole piece in half, not fracture locally like in these pictures

i've shipped/recieved lots of polycarb parts overseas, both by boat and by air, and it has always comes out fine -- look at the TGR A.17, for example, or the polycarb duck viper cases

i've heard from 4 people now (including pancake) of similar cracking (radial fractures around the screw closest to the USB port, and one ****ed corner)

i doubt it was anything malicious, that just doesn't fit with the rest of the puzzle

i'm sure yutski is looking into it and will offer an explanation once it's solved

above all, this is devolving into a ****show and i'm gonna stay out of this for a few days until further updates are provided

You are misunderstanding what they are saying the issue is with thermal expansion. Itís not that any of the materials themselves cannot survive the temperature shifts. Itís that if the board was assembled and the screws were tight fitting, the rate of expansion between the two materials would expand/contract at different rates so the stress would crack the housing.

TBH, it would be easy to prove. Just assemble a board and then toss it in a freezer lol.

I think the screws being loose sounded more plausible.

The other thing to consider is impacts. The foot canít flex, the plexi can, the case canít. If something somehow impacted the foot even if it was just like pressure applied to the foot by the packaging. It could put stress specifically on the center bolt because of how the base would curve if it flexed. Lever effects and all that Jazz.

Either way, Iím sure they will make it right. People need to calm down on that one. No matter what the issue is, it would have been hard to detect until it happened.

What they should do is not attach the foot (if they are) and then instead of screws like stretch wrap or tape the parts together. I assume their packaging expects the board to be assembled. They could use foam or felt or something between the case and the foot if they really wanted to. But regardless without a screw that shouldnít be an issue. The screws can just go in a bag lol.

That would mitigate most of the potential issues I could think of.

Upside is that part looks injection molded to me. If an injection mold already exists it would be cheap to replace, and they likely ordered extras.

Before the lynch mob starts give them time to investigate.


They totally should be fixing the pcbs themselves tho.  :-\

Offline foxlive

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1575 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 04:59:29 »
The flex part is more likely to happend.. the thermal dilatation could.. be keep in mind the screw would have been tightened in Asia, in a hot place. The high thermal delta would be towards negative temperature.. meaning that the poly would contract and not expend (I did not check but from my knowledge, very few material increase in volume when cooled , except the msot famous one, water!). So it would have make the screw loose and not overtight...


Offline amnesia0287

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[GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1576 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 14:34:51 »
The flex part is more likely to happend.. the thermal dilatation could.. be keep in mind the screw would have been tightened in Asia, in a hot place. The high thermal delta would be towards negative temperature.. meaning that the poly would contract and not expend (I did not check but from my knowledge, very few material increase in volume when cooled , except the msot famous one, water!). So it would have make the screw loose and not overtight...

If the poly is wrapped tightly around a screw and it contracts it breaks because it has no room to contract. Thatís the entire discussion lol

The issue is the plastic contracts around the screw which contacts more slowly.



Quote
Cracking

Unexpected cracking by polycarbonate is often due to stress corrosion. Remember that both tensile stress and an attacking chemical are needed. The stress can either be applied stress, residual stress or both. An example of applied stress: a female pipe thread tapped into the polycarbonate part. The male thread screws into it and the taper expands the female part, putting it into tension. Residual stress comes from quenched in stress, after dropping out of the mold, when the different areas of the part cool at different rates. Applied stress has to be designed out of the part by varying the cross sectional thickness of the part. Residual stress gets annealed out. The time and temperature is dependent on the particular plastic. A quick check to tell if residual stress is present in a transparent polycarbonate part is to place a polarized filter or even a pair of polarized sunglasses in front of a light bulb and let the now polarized light shine through the part.

http://www.nhml.com/polycarbonate-high-performance-engineering-thermoplastic/

« Last Edit: Sun, 03 December 2017, 14:44:42 by Amnesia »

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1577 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 16:06:31 »


nigga did u try to skate on it?



tbh looks like someone got a little trigger happy w/ the drill.
 

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1578 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 22:30:30 »
Amnesia (sorry meant alexfry) I think you hit the nail on the head, this feels like less of a community driven thing and a fight that we all know between customer and company. Very disheartening.

As for the cracked polycarb bottom, I'm amazed that other people have suffered from this problem and were okay enough with it to not say anything. Or maybe they did and I missed it? I don't know. At any rate, regardless of how other people feel, I consider the damage done to be unacceptable.

As I said, I bought some lexan and m3 screws, which will arrive this week. I've already measured the thickness of polycarbonate where the foot mounts, and I'll machine the lexan I bought to that same thickness (approximately), punch and countersink some holes, and see what kind of torque you need to crack it. I'm not sure if I think it's going to be a little or a lot.

Maybe I'll make some attempts at testing thermal stress stuff while I'm at it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 December 2017, 12:24:56 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline catweewee

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1579 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 02:59:37 »
Amnesia I think you hit the nail on the head, this feels like less of a community driven thing and a fight that we all know between customer and company. Very disheartening.

As for the cracked polycarb bottom, I'm amazed that other people have suffered from this problem and were okay enough with it to not say anything. Or maybe they did and I missed it? I don't know. At any rate, regardless of how other people feel, I consider the damage done to be unacceptable.

As I said, I bought some lexan and m3 screws, which will arrive this week. I've already measured the thickness of polycarbonate where the foot mounts, and I'll machine the lexan I bought to that same thickness (approximately), punch and countersink some holes, and see what kind of torque you need to crack it. I'm not sure if I think it's going to be a little or a lot.

Maybe I'll make some attempts at testing thermal stress stuff while I'm at it.


Hey Pancake, I ordered 2 exents and both of my bottoms were were fine. Everything was intact. I shipped one of them all the way to Dubai and it was fine too.


Offline BunnyLake

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1580 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 07:18:30 »
totally forgot about this, cant wait to get this board, looks like they are starting to move
FEAR THE RETURN

Offline juahenza

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1581 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 08:05:35 »
We will continue pack and ship for this week. Still yet to hear anything back from the anodizing side. I will personally make a visit to the fac if we still don't hear back by Wednesday. As much as I would love to do it sooner. I have a medical appointment to attend tmr, to follow up on my surgery last week.

The PCB that we have shipped, we had put aside for the PCB that had less than a certain amount of working LEDs. It's rather strange that some of the delivered PCBs have only 1 or 2 LEDs light up. We will fix all the PCB for the unassembled ones, and will also include some extras in case of anything. As for the cracked polycarbonate, we will look into the problem as none of the defective bottoms was shipped.

The EXENT project was never about profit in the first place. We had agreed to the increase in cost for better quality anodizing. Also the increase shipping cost, from 2kg to 3.5kg due to the volumetric size of the board. We are at a point where we are chipping in our own money on this project. Would appreciate a little more patience and understanding, as we will always be around to ensure that all orders are delivered. By the end of the day, I hope it's worthwhile for us to go through all this stresses and hassles.
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Offline codywanks

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1582 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 08:10:31 »
add a FAQ, that's what they're for

Problem with that is only 1 person can edit it, and he's the busiest among us.

_______

Regarding the issue at hand - To those of you insinuating the polycarbonate base was cracked during assembly and was negligently shipped out anyway, consider these points.

1) The feet were attached to the bottoms using a bog-standard L-shaped 1.5mm Allen key. The longer end was used to drive the screws in for better reachability. The short arm measures only 1.6cm, i.e. just enough room for 1 thumb and 1 forefinger to operate (with a less-than-ideal grip).

   

If you believe this could generate enough torque to crack the PC, you probably should go re-take your high school physics exam.

2) There is little reason or incentive we would have to overtighten these. Doing one dozen screws is already enough to make someoneís fingers go numb due to how small and fiddly the tool is. Doing a few hundred screws (while overtightening them) would have given us blisters.

3) No power tools/power drivers were ever used at any stage of the assembly process. Even if we wanted to buy one we couldnít afford it, given this GB is destined to lose money by the time all the issues are sorted out.

4) If you refuse to believe points 1-3 above, well, I went ahead and disassembled some spare kits that were put together on the same day as Pancakeís just to have a look. None were cracked or damaged.

My own Exent did not suffer any cracks in the PC either.



5) As for the missing screws - it was intended as such. Everyone only got 3 screws in their feet, the other 2 were designed to be redundant thus left unpopulated. Same thing with the bottom middle plate screw.

Iím just chiming in based on what I know from being involved. As for remedial measures, Iím sure the GB leadership is close to deciding the best course of action moving forward and shall make an announcement in due time.

*edit: spacing
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 December 2017, 08:17:36 by codywanks »

Offline foxlive

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1583 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 08:50:05 »
Thanks for the update juahenza. I really appreciate that you check and fix the remaining PCB before sending. I am in no hurry to get this. Take your time. I am very happy to know I will have this board in a near futur and I want to to be as perfect as possible :D !

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1584 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 11:30:57 »
K guys, Catweewee, Juahenza, Codywanks, Yuktsi, et al. Please read the following in full:

I'm actually inclined to believe you that the polycarbonate bottoms shipped uncracked. I haven't done my own testing yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes an enormous amount of torque to crack the polycarbonate. So much that you'd have to be actively trying to over torque the screws. Again, haven't done my own testing yet, but I could easily see this being the case.

I'd like to think that would put to rest the accusations that I overtightened the screws as well. Especially considering the base came with the foot attached, so I had no reason to even touch the screws at all until after I noticed the cracking.

I also did nothing else that could have possibly caused those cracks. For example, if I dropped the keyboard on a hard surface, likely there would be additional visible damage to almost every part: The foot, the aluminum case, the polycarbonate. And I'm talking dents, gashes, dings, not just cracks necessarily. On request, I will take pictures/video of every square inch of the parts I received to show you that there is no such damage to my keyboard.

This means that, in all likelihood, whatever caused the polycarbonate to crack didn't happen on my end, and didn't happen on your end, and probably happened in transit.

However, it's highly likely that what caused the cracks, possibly thermal expansion/contraction, was a function of how the keyboard was shipped, i.e. with the foot attached to the polycarbonate. I don't know which of you chose to ship the keyboard this way, but I had no say in the process. Another possibility is that, if it was taken out of the box for inspection, maybe the person inspecting it dropped it. But, again, you'd expect visible impact damage to the keyboard body and I don't see any.

Thus, I think it's fair to say that you are responsible for the damage, and responsible for replacing the part. Basically, until the keyboard is out of the box and in my hands, its condition is your responsibility.

Fundamentally, I received a damaged keyboard, and need to get the damaged parts replaced. When I chose to buy this keyboard, I put my trust in you, the group by leaders. Please don't betray that trust.

And, for I hope the last time, if I had caused this damage, I wouldn't be here asking for a replacement polycarbonate bottom, I would be here asking if I could buy a replacement.

Finally, I frankly don't care that some of the Exents didn't get cracked in transit. **** how I wish that were the case with me. But this is how mine arrived, apparently I'm not an entirely isolated case, so obviously there is some percentage of Exents that are fine on delivery, and some that aren't.

Also, I've continued tinkering with the PCB and have I think verified that, quite literally, every single LED is DOA. My plan is to simply replace them, and this brings me to my updated set of requests:

Juahenza, Yuktsi, etc:

- My PCB was delivered with no functional LEDs. Either replace the PCB, or reimburse me between 10$ and 15$ for replacement LED modules (18xWS8212b). I'll get an exact amount, in the form of receipts/confirmation emails, once I've ordered them.

- My polycarbonate bottom was delivered cracked. I cannot fix this part myself, and so it must be replaced. Again, I don't need a replacement foot, so please don't send the base with anything attached to it. I don't want a repeat cracked bottom. I will also, this time, film opening the package when I receive it.


Thanks. 


« Last Edit: Mon, 04 December 2017, 12:06:02 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline Pwner

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1585 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 12:02:00 »
and this brings me to my updated set of requests:

Bro, how about taking a step back, catching a breather and let them deal with it.  You act like you are the only person in this GB.  How about you let other people get their boards, see what else/if anything else gets damaged during shipping or whatever and let them take care of it after.  We know you have damaged parts, we've all seen the last 50 million of your posts.

Online TerryMathews

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1586 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 13:38:29 »
I would imagine he's waiting for them to acknowledge that they will correct the situation so that he can start building.

Offline kacase

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1587 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 14:39:14 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Offline kacase

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1588 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 14:55:29 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Offline Helldrop

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1589 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 15:08:27 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Actually, I feel the same way.

Online dubious

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1590 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 15:09:17 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Actually, I feel the same way.

third

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1591 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 16:02:46 »
I've made my grievances and requests public deliberately. There is no formally defined claim process that I am aware of, so I chose that path inclusive of the community, as opposed to closed between myself and the group buy leaders. If nothing else, I'd figure it useful information for everyone to see the claims procedure for someone who received a defective product, in the unfortunate instance that they end up in a position similar to my own. But more than that, being public has already proved its worth for at minimum identifying the source of a condition causing the polycarbonate to fail in transit, namely shipping it attached to the steel foot, and so this can be corrected for in future shipments.

Nonetheless, not only do I welcome, but absolutely encourage Juahenza or Yuktsi to contact me privately. Though, aside from irrelevant details or private information, I intend to continue publicly updating my situation.
   

Offline amnesia0287

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1592 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 16:59:21 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Actually, I feel the same way.

third

Gotta love the "community" projects where the community says its every man for themselves.

Offline demorior

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1593 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 17:07:54 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


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Actually, I feel the same way.

third

Gotta love the "community" projects where the community says its every man for themselves.
no kidding

Offline kacase

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1594 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 17:21:19 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, I feel the same way.

third

Gotta love the "community" projects where the community says its every man for themselves.
no kidding

Showing the defects to identify their reason and show people what to look out for is good and should be encouraged.

What I/we donít believe should be in this thread are specific requests for a specific order. Such as: ďI didnít receive stabs with my order #282 pls refund me 12,75ÄĒ or similar. This is something that should be between the GB Organizers and the buyer until a solution has been found or too much time has passed.

ďI got refunded the 12,75Ä for the StabsĒ or ďI still havenít received an nascent after a monthĒ would be fine, because that is useful information for everyone.

Not all information is relevant and interesting to everyone I this GB. And our point was to try to keep that information out of this thread, in order to not waste everyoneís time.
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1595 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 17:42:08 »
Also requests like this donít belong in the general discussion. You should keep them in a private conversation via pm or email and not clutter this thread... although itís probably already too late for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, I feel the same way.

third

Gotta love the "community" projects where the community says its every man for themselves.
no kidding

Showing the defects to identify their reason and show people what to look out for is good and should be encouraged.

What I/we donít believe should be in this thread are specific requests for a specific order. Such as: ďI didnít receive stabs with my order #282 pls refund me 12,75ÄĒ or similar. This is something that should be between the GB Organizers and the buyer until a solution has been found or too much time has passed.

ďI got refunded the 12,75Ä for the StabsĒ or ďI still havenít received an nascent after a monthĒ would be fine, because that is useful information for everyone.

Not all information is relevant and interesting to everyone I this GB. And our point was to try to keep that information out of this thread, in order to not waste everyoneís time.

++

i'm often guilty of threadcrapping, but i agree with this hard
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Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1596 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 17:58:43 »

What I/we don’t believe should be in this thread are specific requests for a specific order. Such as: “I didn’t receive stabs with my order #282 pls refund me 12,75€” or similar. This is something that should be between the GB Organizers and the buyer until a solution has been found or too much time has passed.


This is your opinion, but I don't think it's necessarily an invalid one. There are two reasons I've been so detailed:

- One: The proportion of my comments that are requests of this type is tiny, i.e. compared with all the crap I have to say, the parts that are highly specific requests are practically negligible, sometimes even within individual comments.

- Two: I'm making my requests transparent to the community. Not necessarily that's it's their business what I think I'm entitled to given the condition of what I received, but it is a litmus test for everyone.

Although I'm of course in part responsible, what I think clutters up the thread are discussions about what should or should not be included in the thread, but even this has its value.

And of course I understand the value of "I got sent a replacement polycarbonate bottom" vs. "Please refund my $7.32 for 7 and a half WS8212b SMD RGB LED modules." But again, the ratio of request:content is very low, and I want to be open, so I've decided to keep stuff like that in my comments.

You said it yourself, but I'm going to rephrase if you'll allow it: "What's interesting to some isn't to others, and vice versa."

Best to be all inclusive.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 December 2017, 18:09:55 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline krispy

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1597 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 18:51:14 »
I don't want to take sides but in PancakeMSTR's defense before he and others started making a fuss we didn't really have any communication from the GB runners. If that's what it takes to get a dialogue going or even a simple status update on a severely delayed GB (yes, I am very aware GB's get delayed..) then I guess that's just the way things work around here..

Offline demorior

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1598 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 22:34:14 »
So I've tried reflowing the solder points for LED #1 and still no luck. it only glows green so who do I contact about this?
Anyone have any luck who had faulty LEDs? This is super disappointing. I've soldered switches and inswitch LEDs but I'm not a professional.
Really wish I had the option of having one of the GB runners fix the PCB instead of sending it out to me partially functional.

Offline demorior

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1599 on: Mon, 04 December 2017, 22:53:58 »
and holy ****, i just took a closer look at the poly bottom and mine is cracked too. have literally not touched this bolt at all...



« Last Edit: Mon, 04 December 2017, 22:56:50 by demorior »