Author Topic: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)  (Read 238783 times)

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Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1700 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:14:46 »
Reparations; my experience has been bad. Frankly I'm surprised you're so accepting of the situation. But I reiterate, the terms offered in my comment are fully negotiable. The only thing I'm 100% inflexible on is getting a replacement polycarbonate bottom.

I'm fine with discussing my offers communally, but it would be nice to actually hear back from the GB leadership some day.

At any rate, I'm more inclined at this point to go for a simple refund, since I finally managed to fix the PCB,  and have only the polycarbonate replaced. That's the simpler and I think most mutually beneficial option.

You say you want reparations (actual damages) but the rest of your post makes clear that you want punitive damages.

This isn't McDonald's. You don't get free fries because they screwed up your burger.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1701 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:16:53 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like. 
   

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1702 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:22:57 »
Reparations; my experience has been bad. Frankly I'm surprised you're so accepting of the situation. But I reiterate, the terms offered in my comment are fully negotiable. The only thing I'm 100% inflexible on is getting a replacement polycarbonate bottom.

I'm fine with discussing my offers communally, but it would be nice to actually hear back from the GB leadership some day.

At any rate, I'm more inclined at this point to go for a simple refund, since I finally managed to fix the PCB,  and have only the polycarbonate replaced. That's the simpler and I think most mutually beneficial option.

You say you want reparations (actual damages) but the rest of your post makes clear that you want punitive damages.

This isn't McDonald's. You don't get free fries because they screwed up your burger.

Yeah you're not wrong and you worded that well, to some degree I'm looking for punitive damages. I don't personally think I'm being unreasonable. I'm not looking for a whole keyboard replacement, or refund or whatever.

I'm kinda shocked at how...accepting you all are. Everyone can have their opinion and that's fine and I'm not even looking to change anyone's mind just that my opinion is that we are owed more than just replacement parts. We are owed at minimum replacement parts, and if Juahenza or Yuktsi or whoever (I have no goddamned clue at this point who's running the show) want only to do the minimum, then that's their decision. But I think, given the lack of choices we were afforded, and the problems we were subjected to because of it, we deserve more.

   

Offline Tally810

  • Posts: 601
  • Location: Houston Texas
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1703 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:23:21 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like.
Yea all of that sucks and is not right by any means.  However I still don't think you should look for anything more than getting your parts replaced which btw is still going to cost the GB runners money out of their pockets.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1704 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:32:58 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like.
Yea all of that sucks and is not right by any means.  However I still don't think you should look for anything more than getting your parts replaced which btw is still going to cost the GB runners money out of their pockets.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

And to be clear all that I'm seriously looking to make absolutely sure happens is getting the polycarbonate replaced. Beyond that, all I'm trying to do is open the floor to options for correcting wrongs. I am looking for a compromise good for me, and good for the group buy leadership.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:34:47 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline dead_pixel_design

  • Posts: 469
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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1705 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 15:25:41 »
I think it's ok to ask for a refund and return everything, or ask for a replacement for the damaged parts and return the damaged parts.

Offline MaNiFeX

  • Posts: 663
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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1706 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 15:46:12 »
I think it's ok to ask for a refund and return everything, or ask for a replacement for the damaged parts and return the damaged parts.

I agree.  It looks like the group buy runners, yutski at least, seems to be amenable to making sure that all defective parts are replaced/repaired. 

I appreciate the updates over the last two weeks, guys, thank you!  The aluminum bottoms look dope, but it looks like these won't ship out until the new year.  I'd rather have a functioning keyboard on arrival then rushing and getting defective parts, so take the time you need.

Good luck!   :thumb:


Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1707 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:04:30 »
I think it's ok to ask for a refund and return everything, or ask for a replacement for the damaged parts and return the damaged parts.

And I think it's ok to ask for more than that, given the way we've collectively been treated. At least those of us in the first wave of shipments, but I'd argue everyone.

Either way, what's the point of returning a damaged polycarbonate bottom? At any rate I'm sure as **** not returning everything. If they really want the cracked polycarbonate back (to do what, exactly, with?), I'll send it back in the package I get the new one in.

Also, why isn't it better for them to just replace, rather than replace with a return? If they only replace, they pay shipping one way. If they want the broken part back, then they have to pay shipping both ways. Why would they bother? That's outright throwing money away - for a broken part no less.

And if it's a trust issue, well, that goes both ways.

« Last Edit: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:14:09 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline dead_pixel_design

  • Posts: 469
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • IIIV is not a Roman Numeral. Positive Vibes.
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1708 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:20:11 »
...

I don't share your perspective. I don't feel we have been treated poorly. And I don't feel we deserve more than replacements (with them requesting we return the damaged part first) or refunds (with them requesting a return first). I can see your perspective, I just don't share it. I feel like you are asking too much. But ultimately it doesn't matter what I think, and it doesn't matter what you think, all that matters is how the person making the decisions thinks your damaged items should be handled, and they have offered refunds if you don't agree with their decision as your only investment in this project has been money that is a 100% recoup of investment, which is pretty damn good.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1709 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:26:31 »
...

I don't share your perspective. I don't feel we have been treated poorly. And I don't feel we deserve more than replacements (with them requesting we return the damaged part first) or refunds (with them requesting a return first). I can see your perspective, I just don't share it. I feel like you are asking too much. But ultimately it doesn't matter what I think, and it doesn't matter what you think, all that matters is how the person making the decisions thinks your damaged items should be handled, and they have offered refunds if you don't agree with their decision as your only investment in this project has been money that is a 100% recoup of investment, which is pretty damn good.

No kidding you don't share my perspective. I certainly don't share yours.

I think it would be absolutely preposterous of them to require the polycarbonate bottom be sent back before replacing it. For a mistake of their making, I would then be without the  Exent usable for another minimum four weeks, probably closer to five. I would refuse, feel exceptionally insulted by such treatment, and they would have failed woefully to make things right with me.

I'd feel just as insulted if they requested the PCB back, but I would understand the logic at least. With the polycarbonate? No.

I'm going to hope they don't take that approach. After all this, to get that response? After being called a ****ing liar trying to pull some scam? I would be beyond upset.

I'd like to see leadership step in and put this to rest. In a way that doesn't involve shipping totally unusable parts back to Malaysia and waiting another few months to get to use this keyboard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:29:11 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1710 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:28:45 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like.
Yea all of that sucks and is not right by any means.  However I still don't think you should look for anything more than getting your parts replaced which btw is still going to cost the GB runners money out of their pockets.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm with you on this. My expectations are (for me specifically):

1) Replaced polycarb bottom (with no need for return of the original - it's not like they can rework it)
2) Replacement RGB LEDs or funds to cover their cost (minimal, but the principle of the matter)

Generally speaking, I think the GB runners should offer the following:
1) Polycarb bottom - no hassle replacement. Maybe offer alu bottom upgrade at cost if any extras are available.
2) Offer of exchange of defective PCB for working replacement at no cost to purchaser or RGB LEDs for self-repair

Even though I think this GB was handled poorly with somewhat of a turnaround at the very end, I'm not looking to profit in order to punish TARO. The damage Juahenza has done to their reputations is punishment enough IMO.

Offline demorior

  • Posts: 69
  • Location: San Diego, CA
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1711 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:30:29 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like.
Yea all of that sucks and is not right by any means.  However I still don't think you should look for anything more than getting your parts replaced which btw is still going to cost the GB runners money out of their pockets.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm with you on this. My expectations are (for me specifically):

1) Replaced polycarb bottom (with no need for return of the original - it's not like they can rework it)
2) Replacement RGB LEDs or funds to cover their cost (minimal, but the principle of the matter)

Generally speaking, I think the GB runners should offer the following:
1) Polycarb bottom - no hassle replacement. Maybe offer alu bottom upgrade at cost if any extras are available.
2) Offer of exchange of defective PCB for working replacement at no cost to purchaser or RGB LEDs for self-repair

Even though I think this GB was handled poorly with somewhat of a turnaround at the very end, I'm not looking to profit in order to punish TARO. The damage Juahenza has done to their reputations is punishment enough IMO.
This seems like the most reasonable solution to me. I'd be happy if they could manage this.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1712 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:30:41 »
Who do you think you bought a keyboard from? Amazon? Expecting anything more than a replacement for damaged parts is ridiculous.

Why are you so willing to accept bad treatment and defective parts? The product that was delivered to me suggests that the people leading this group buy take absolutely no pride in their work.

Also, both my PCB and polycarbonate were delivered damaged/defective, and accordingly I have grievances with both. The polycarbonate you know about, and the PCB, as it turns out, didn't just have cold solder joints (which is all I was lead to expect), but a dead LED, which I wasn't prepared for. It was delivered, literally, damaged, or with a damaged/defective component installed. Put it however you'd like.
Yea all of that sucks and is not right by any means.  However I still don't think you should look for anything more than getting your parts replaced which btw is still going to cost the GB runners money out of their pockets.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm with you on this. My expectations are (for me specifically):

1) Replaced polycarb bottom (with no need for return of the original - it's not like they can rework it)
2) Replacement RGB LEDs or funds to cover their cost (minimal, but the principle of the matter)

Generally speaking, I think the GB runners should offer the following:
1) Polycarb bottom - no hassle replacement. Maybe offer alu bottom upgrade at cost if any extras are available.
2) Offer of exchange of defective PCB for working replacement at no cost to purchaser or RGB LEDs for self-repair

Even though I think this GB was handled poorly with somewhat of a turnaround at the very end, I'm not looking to profit in order to punish TARO. The damage Juahenza has done to their reputations is punishment enough IMO.

I think that's fair. I'd be very accepting of that response.

I think they should do at least one other thing, assuming they haven't already: I think they should release at least the PCB and Switchplate CAD drawings to us, if not the whole keyboard. At some point this group buy will close entirely and the Exent  won't be supported anymore. It would be nice, if nothing but for the comfort, to be able to get replacement parts, even if they have to be acquired of our own volition.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:38:19 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1713 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:40:34 »
I think they should do at least one other thing, assuming they haven't already: I think they should release at least the PCB and Switchplate CAD drawings to us, if not the whole keyboard. At some point this group buy will close entirely and won't be supported anymore. It would be nice, if nothing but for the comfort, to be able to get replacement parts, even if they have to be acquired of our own volition.

The switchplate design is exceedingly simple. It probably looks complicated to you if you've never been involved in the design of one before, but honestly it's a perfectly normal tray mount plate with switch holes for a 65% layout.

Would it be nice to do? Sure. But there's nothing exceedingly special about the PCB or plate design. Someone with some experience could create us a PCB and plate with some pictures and measurements in a handful of hours.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1714 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 16:42:45 »
I think they should do at least one other thing, assuming they haven't already: I think they should release at least the PCB and Switchplate CAD drawings to us, if not the whole keyboard. At some point this group buy will close entirely and won't be supported anymore. It would be nice, if nothing but for the comfort, to be able to get replacement parts, even if they have to be acquired of our own volition.

The switchplate design is exceedingly simple. It probably looks complicated to you if you've never been involved in the design of one before, but honestly it's a perfectly normal tray mount plate with switch holes for a 65% layout.

Would it be nice to do? Sure. But there's nothing exceedingly special about the PCB or plate design. Someone with some experience could create us a PCB and plate with some pictures and measurements in a handful of hours.

Not suggesting there is anything inherently complicated about the PCB or switchplate, but which is simpler, finding someone else to remake the designs, or them releasing them?
   

Online Wilba

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1715 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 18:05:17 »
Yeah you're not wrong and you worded that well, to some degree I'm looking for punitive damages. I don't personally think I'm being unreasonable. I'm not looking for a whole keyboard replacement, or refund or whatever.

I'm kinda shocked at how...accepting you all are. Everyone can have their opinion and that's fine and I'm not even looking to change anyone's mind just that my opinion is that we are owed more than just replacement parts. We are owed at minimum replacement parts, and if Juahenza or Yuktsi or whoever (I have no goddamned clue at this point who's running the show) want only to do the minimum, then that's their decision. But I think, given the lack of choices we were afforded, and the problems we were subjected to because of it, we deserve more.

Everyone has an expectation to receive what they paid for (i.e. working, non-defective, undamaged parts).

This expectation that you are owed even more than that, for the inconvenience of receiving defective parts is simply ludicrous. In your case, if you have to wait a bit longer to get what you paid for, so what? This is a group buy, not a store. Most are costed to break even plus a bit of compensation to the GB runners (i.e. a free unit). You cannot on the one hand expect group buy prices to have minimal profit margins, and then on the other hand, expect the group buy to have a magical pile of money from which to pay you punitive damages and give you freebies simply because you feel aggrieved.


Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1716 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 18:06:03 »
If I was going to have a new switch plate cut I'd want to support switch top opening.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1717 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 19:56:39 »
Yeah you're not wrong and you worded that well, to some degree I'm looking for punitive damages. I don't personally think I'm being unreasonable. I'm not looking for a whole keyboard replacement, or refund or whatever.

I'm kinda shocked at how...accepting you all are. Everyone can have their opinion and that's fine and I'm not even looking to change anyone's mind just that my opinion is that we are owed more than just replacement parts. We are owed at minimum replacement parts, and if Juahenza or Yuktsi or whoever (I have no goddamned clue at this point who's running the show) want only to do the minimum, then that's their decision. But I think, given the lack of choices we were afforded, and the problems we were subjected to because of it, we deserve more.

Everyone has an expectation to receive what they paid for (i.e. working, non-defective, undamaged parts).

This expectation that you are owed even more than that, for the inconvenience of receiving defective parts is simply ludicrous. In your case, if you have to wait a bit longer to get what you paid for, so what? This is a group buy, not a store. Most are costed to break even plus a bit of compensation to the GB runners (i.e. a free unit). You cannot on the one hand expect group buy prices to have minimal profit margins, and then on the other hand, expect the group buy to have a magical pile of money from which to pay you punitive damages and give you freebies simply because you feel aggrieved.

k. I think what was delivered to me was pretty egregious, but what can you expect right? It's just a group buy.
   

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1718 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 21:01:36 »
Yeah you're not wrong and you worded that well, to some degree I'm looking for punitive damages. I don't personally think I'm being unreasonable. I'm not looking for a whole keyboard replacement, or refund or whatever.

I'm kinda shocked at how...accepting you all are. Everyone can have their opinion and that's fine and I'm not even looking to change anyone's mind just that my opinion is that we are owed more than just replacement parts. We are owed at minimum replacement parts, and if Juahenza or Yuktsi or whoever (I have no goddamned clue at this point who's running the show) want only to do the minimum, then that's their decision. But I think, given the lack of choices we were afforded, and the problems we were subjected to because of it, we deserve more.

Everyone has an expectation to receive what they paid for (i.e. working, non-defective, undamaged parts).

This expectation that you are owed even more than that, for the inconvenience of receiving defective parts is simply ludicrous. In your case, if you have to wait a bit longer to get what you paid for, so what? This is a group buy, not a store. Most are costed to break even plus a bit of compensation to the GB runners (i.e. a free unit). You cannot on the one hand expect group buy prices to have minimal profit margins, and then on the other hand, expect the group buy to have a magical pile of money from which to pay you punitive damages and give you freebies simply because you feel aggrieved.

k. I think what was delivered to me was pretty egregious, but what can you expect right? It's just a group buy.

Dude. You've been reading my posts through this thread. I'm no fan of Juahenza at this point for what he's done with the buy, or TARO for at a minimum turning a blind eye and letting things devolve into a ****storm. You know that.

But I'm telling you, you're off-base on this. Even in a retail setting, you wouldn't be owed what you're asking.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1719 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 21:14:57 »
Yeah you're not wrong and you worded that well, to some degree I'm looking for punitive damages. I don't personally think I'm being unreasonable. I'm not looking for a whole keyboard replacement, or refund or whatever.

I'm kinda shocked at how...accepting you all are. Everyone can have their opinion and that's fine and I'm not even looking to change anyone's mind just that my opinion is that we are owed more than just replacement parts. We are owed at minimum replacement parts, and if Juahenza or Yuktsi or whoever (I have no goddamned clue at this point who's running the show) want only to do the minimum, then that's their decision. But I think, given the lack of choices we were afforded, and the problems we were subjected to because of it, we deserve more.

Everyone has an expectation to receive what they paid for (i.e. working, non-defective, undamaged parts).

This expectation that you are owed even more than that, for the inconvenience of receiving defective parts is simply ludicrous. In your case, if you have to wait a bit longer to get what you paid for, so what? This is a group buy, not a store. Most are costed to break even plus a bit of compensation to the GB runners (i.e. a free unit). You cannot on the one hand expect group buy prices to have minimal profit margins, and then on the other hand, expect the group buy to have a magical pile of money from which to pay you punitive damages and give you freebies simply because you feel aggrieved.

k. I think what was delivered to me was pretty egregious, but what can you expect right? It's just a group buy.

Dude. You've been reading my posts through this thread. I'm no fan of Juahenza at this point for what he's done with the buy, or TARO for at a minimum turning a blind eye and letting things devolve into a ****storm. You know that.

But I'm telling you, you're off-base on this. Even in a retail setting, you wouldn't be owed what you're asking.


Okay. I'm not planning on pushing this, and I'm certainly not intent on converting anyone to my way of thinking, and I want to actively avoid getting into a big argument with anyone. I am not trying to make a big deal of this.

« Last Edit: Tue, 12 December 2017, 21:17:34 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline rustywok

  • Posts: 103
  • Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1720 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 21:46:27 »
If I was going to have a new switch plate cut I'd want to support switch top opening.

I know, right.

Online shengpizi

  • Posts: 3
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1721 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 23:55:41 »
For what happens with PancakeMSTR, the big question is THERE IS NO STANDARD to judge the quality of a community GB. People use their own standard to measure whether PancakeMSTR's demand is fair or so much, while these standard is very unclear and sometimes influenced by their own taste or even their feelings to what's PancakeMSTR said.

If this happens on Amazon or Taobao, buyers can keep everything and get a full refund, cuz Amazon and Taobao's strategy tends to protect buyers other than sellers. But clearly, it won't happens here, technically sellers never made any promise, and it nearly stupid for them spend so much on customers service for reputation, and we do should not treat GB organizer so strictly in case hurt their passion, anyway MK GB is a relatively new-born industry.

But I think it's time to set a standard.

Offline amnesia0287

  • Formerly Amnesia
  • Posts: 997
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1722 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 03:37:30 »
For what happens with PancakeMSTR, the big question is THERE IS NO STANDARD to judge the quality of a community GB. People use their own standard to measure whether PancakeMSTR's demand is fair or so much, while these standard is very unclear and sometimes influenced by their own taste or even their feelings to what's PancakeMSTR said.

If this happens on Amazon or Taobao, buyers can keep everything and get a full refund, cuz Amazon and Taobao's strategy tends to protect buyers other than sellers. But clearly, it won't happens here, technically sellers never made any promise, and it nearly stupid for them spend so much on customers service for reputation, and we do should not treat GB organizer so strictly in case hurt their passion, anyway MK GB is a relatively new-born industry.

But I think it's time to set a standard.

You are not understanding how GB work at all...

PancakeMSTR isn't wrong to want a partial refund... he DIDN'T get what he expected, BUT, this is a GB and as such was never guaranteed to receive anything. Either way though, wanting a refund may be reasonable, expecting one in a GB is something all together different because in a GB, all funds are allocated.

You have to be able to FUND reFUNDs.

Who would you suggest PAYS for the refunds? The money you paid was used to produce keyboards. There might be some left, but they still need to do shipping and try and replace what parts they can. Do you want the people who get non-defective boards to pay the ones who didn't?

Offering a refund without a return is not a "strategy". Amazon and Tao-Bao are businesses with financing. Amazon likely has a massive pot of funding just for refunds and customer satisfaction. This is money with NO OTHER PURPOSE aside from paying out refunds. Sure they might reinvest it somewhere else if they don't need it all, but this is something that is budgeted into their cost of operations. It's rolled into their pricing structure. Every single product amazon sells has a few extra cents of markup JUST for refunds. Or maybe it comes out of the prime fees. maybe both. The point is it's not just some happy accident. They specific have funds and budget for it.

That can totally be done with GBs, but you need to understand what you are actually asking. If you want to have a fund to cover issues, then you need to expect to pay into it. Would you for instance be interested in paying in an extra $50 a person as a sort of "compensation/issue fund". This is the basic concept behind insurance. Everyone pays a bit extra and then since more often than not the issues impact a small subset of the total, you can use that fund to compensate their issues. If every board is flawed though, then all you get back is your own $50.

The next question then becomes what happens to that money if it ISN'T spent at the end of a GB? Do you refund it back after? How do you prove it wasn't spent? Do you let the GB runner keep it?


NO ONE will run a GB if they themselves are personally liable for the flaws of whatever they receive. If you expect a refund, you grossly misunderstand what a GB is. A GB IS NOT A RETAIL PURCHASE. You are as a group collectively buying something. The reason you use the term GB runner and not vendor or retailer is because the "runner" is just another member of the collective who has volunteered to coordinate the collective's purchases, usually for a tiny bit of compensation. Sure some of the people running GB are businesses, and sure some of the businesses call things GB when they are in fact retail sales, but THIS is clearly not one of those cases. If you can't deal with this, then DON'T JOIN GBs and stick to retail.

Offline kacase

  • Posts: 119
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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1723 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 05:31:16 »
For what happens with PancakeMSTR, the big question is THERE IS NO STANDARD to judge the quality of a community GB. People use their own standard to measure whether PancakeMSTR's demand is fair or so much, while these standard is very unclear and sometimes influenced by their own taste or even their feelings to what's PancakeMSTR said.

If this happens on Amazon or Taobao, buyers can keep everything and get a full refund, cuz Amazon and Taobao's strategy tends to protect buyers other than sellers. But clearly, it won't happens here, technically sellers never made any promise, and it nearly stupid for them spend so much on customers service for reputation, and we do should not treat GB organizer so strictly in case hurt their passion, anyway MK GB is a relatively new-born industry.

But I think it's time to set a standard.

You are not understanding how GB work at all...

PancakeMSTR isn't wrong to want a partial refund... he DIDN'T get what he expected, BUT, this is a GB and as such was never guaranteed to receive anything. Either way though, wanting a refund may be reasonable, expecting one in a GB is something all together different because in a GB, all funds are allocated.

You have to be able to FUND reFUNDs.

Who would you suggest PAYS for the refunds? The money you paid was used to produce keyboards. There might be some left, but they still need to do shipping and try and replace what parts they can. Do you want the people who get non-defective boards to pay the ones who didn't?

Offering a refund without a return is not a "strategy". Amazon and Tao-Bao are businesses with financing. Amazon likely has a massive pot of funding just for refunds and customer satisfaction. This is money with NO OTHER PURPOSE aside from paying out refunds. Sure they might reinvest it somewhere else if they don't need it all, but this is something that is budgeted into their cost of operations. It's rolled into their pricing structure. Every single product amazon sells has a few extra cents of markup JUST for refunds. Or maybe it comes out of the prime fees. maybe both. The point is it's not just some happy accident. They specific have funds and budget for it.

That can totally be done with GBs, but you need to understand what you are actually asking. If you want to have a fund to cover issues, then you need to expect to pay into it. Would you for instance be interested in paying in an extra $50 a person as a sort of "compensation/issue fund". This is the basic concept behind insurance. Everyone pays a bit extra and then since more often than not the issues impact a small subset of the total, you can use that fund to compensate their issues. If every board is flawed though, then all you get back is your own $50.

The next question then becomes what happens to that money if it ISN'T spent at the end of a GB? Do you refund it back after? How do you prove it wasn't spent? Do you let the GB runner keep it?


NO ONE will run a GB if they themselves are personally liable for the flaws of whatever they receive. If you expect a refund, you grossly misunderstand what a GB is. A GB IS NOT A RETAIL PURCHASE. You are as a group collectively buying something. The reason you use the term GB runner and not vendor or retailer is because the "runner" is just another member of the collective who has volunteered to coordinate the collective's purchases, usually for a tiny bit of compensation. Sure some of the people running GB are businesses, and sure some of the businesses call things GB when they are in fact retail sales, but THIS is clearly not one of those cases. If you can't deal with this, then DON'T JOIN GBs and stick to retail.

I can only agree to that.

Also I understand that **** can happen and things donít go as planned during production or shipping. Who of you would have thought about the thermal expansion before packing?

The GB runners are members of our community. This community is based on peopleís passion for mechanical keyboards.

As I for one would quite like to see new keyboard group buys to pop up, have an incentive to keep the passion for keyboards in the GB runners alive.
I have thought about running a GB before, but itís these horror stories and people like PancakeMSTR that hold me off.

PancakeMSTR mentioned multiple times that this is his first and last group buy so Iím pretty sure he doesnít give a **** about this community.

Community is being friendly and fair with one another and sharing a passion.

This GB is not like buying ceramic cups on amazon that might break because no one really knows what the final product will exactly be like. It is also not like pledging for something on Kickstarter because the community aspect is missing. And even there you will not always get what you pledged for.

Read the caveat emptor regarding group buys, make your (sensible) demands in a private message and please stop scaring everyone from ever running a group buy again. I like mechanical keyboards and knew that the excent could have flaws when I joined the group buy.

Orion V2 | Rama M65-A | Rama M67-A aka. Exent | Keycool TKL | Cherry MX Board 3.0

Online yuktsi

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1724 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 06:01:41 »
Quick update on the shipping. All basic kits with no add-ons of the aluminum bottom, 12 deg feet and brass plate had been all shipped. Tracking will be updated to your PayPal if you still don't receive on in the next 24 hours. Feel free to send me a PM.

Next, we will be getting orders with brass plate and 12 deg feet out. Cheers.

More
Poker 2 | LZ CE | Leopold FC700R | KMAC 1.2 | EXE | GON NS87 | GON Nerd TKL | Duck Poker | Duck Orion | Realforce 87u 55g | OTD 456GT | LZ B7 | OTD 360C | Ducky G2 Pro | Apple Extended | Apple M0116 | Apple M0116 | Cherry G80-1220HAD | Duck Octagon | HHKB Pro 2 | Duck Unicorn | LZ B8 | LZ RE | ENVKX | OTD 456GT | LZ FE | HHKB Type S | TX1800| Duck Orion V2 | LZ FE | KPad | KMAC Happy | ENVKX | LZ RV | KMAC 2 | Whale | Dolphin | EM7 | TGR Jane | VE.A | DK Saver | Matrix 103 | Whale | HHKB BT | Dolphin v2 | EM7 v2 | SSK | SSK (Blue Label) | LZ SQ | Duck Octagon v2 | TX84 | GON Mobik | TX-CP | LZ Ergo | KMAC Happy HHKB | TGR 910 | TGR Tris | Matrix 8xv1.2 | KMAC Mini | Mira | Fjell | 356mini | Dolphin GH | EM7 GH | TARO EXENT | Masterkey Pro L Crysta l OTD Koala | Duck Viper | Keycult no.1

Offline d.caminero

  • Posts: 89
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1725 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 10:12:30 »
Quick update on the shipping. All basic kits with no add-ons of the aluminum bottom, 12 deg feet and brass plate had been all shipped. Tracking will be updated to your PayPal if you still don't receive on in the next 24 hours. Feel free to send me a PM.

Next, we will be getting orders with brass plate and 12 deg feet out. Cheers.

Hey yuktsi, I've PMd you about my shipping because it seems to be stuck somewhere, could you please look into it and tell me something?

Thanks in advance

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1726 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:42:27 »
Maybe there should be a fee attached to every group buy as a "**** up" fund? I know I would be happy to pay into such a thing.

For that matter, I've actually been toying with the idea of opening up an IC/GB...for hiring a lawyer. I don't know how difficult it would be but what if we could get a lawyer to help us generate a general contract, one that could be applied to all group buys, international or otherwise? You sign it, the GB leaders sign it, and now there is a legal contract between the group buy runners and the participants, vs. the handshake agreement we have now.


As for how the group buy leaders should be dealing with their **** up fund, yeah, it really should be factored into both the timeline and the price they charge for their product. It works right? There are two cases: (A) Something goes wrong, but lucky for them they have some money to fix the problem or (B) Everything goes perfect and they keep the money, and deservedly so because they clearly ran a great GB if nothing failed.

Everyone would be happier if we knew that if something went wrong, we would be compensated (in one form or another) without a huge amount of hassle.

Also, if you can't deal with what a group buy is, don't join one goes both ways Amnesia. Know what you're getting into if you want to run one. Sure as **** keeps me out of the game.

One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

Kacase:
 Could you stop ****ing denigrating me? For one thing, this isn't my first group buy. I've gotten a number of keysets through massdrop (if that counts in your opinion), and I'm attached to the Model F and GMK 9009 R2.

You're right though, I'm intent on making these my last group buys, but that's not necessarily because I don't give a **** about the keyboard community. No, I just personally  can't hack it. The waiting, the worrying, the delays, the nervousness. It's more stress than it's worth. I basically, at this point, refuse to buy a product that isn't already sitting on a shelf in a warehouse or storage room somewhere, waiting to be shipped. The only things I'll make exceptions for are keycaps that are really special in some way to me (that's why I joined GMK 9009 R2 for example).

All that though is until I see that the community changes on a fundamental level the way it runs group buys, or in general produces products. This system we have? It's a pain in the ass. We need some more structure, some better pathways. Easy to achieve a better system? Definitely not. Necessary? I think so, otherwise we are going to repeat this cycle endlessly, until everyone gets so sick of dealing with a GB they stop joining them altogether.

But seriously, cut the **** Kacase. I don't have it out for anyone.


Yuktsi

Great update, that totally ignored one of the major discussions going on right now. What are the specifics of your replacement plan? When do you intend on shipping out replacement parts? What is the response of the group buy leadership to what's been discussed regarding replacement parts/receipt of damaged products/compensation?
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:49:23 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Online clasicks

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1727 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:47:19 »
lol, pankake guy, please calm down

Online clasicks

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1728 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:48:37 »
Quote
and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation.


roflmao

Offline eddible

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1729 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:49:20 »
Oh god, please ship my board so I can leave this thread.

Offline dgneo

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1730 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:52:32 »
Sincere kudos to any GB runner who has to deal with this guy, holy cow.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1731 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:53:02 »
Quote
and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation.


roflmao

Clearly you don't find it reasonable. But how about not deliberately taking a statement of mine out of context?
   

Online clasicks

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1732 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:55:58 »
K


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline dubious

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1733 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 11:59:15 »
I am not trying to make a big deal of this.

 :)) :)) :))

Offline TerryMathews

  • Posts: 452
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1734 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:08:19 »
Quote
and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation.


roflmao

Clearly you don't find it reasonable. But how about not deliberately taking a statement of mine out of context?

I don't think you understand what out of context is. He didnt take that quote out of context. You feel you're entitled to that $15-$30 in compensation. Deleting the rest of the post doesn't change the meaning of your statement.

This is out of context quoting:

Quote
I just personally  can't hack it.

I'm [...] a pain in the ass.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1735 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:10:46 »
Quote
and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation.


roflmao

Clearly you don't find it reasonable. But how about not deliberately taking a statement of mine out of context?

I don't think you understand what out of context is. He didnt take that quote out of context. You feel you're entitled to that $15-$30 in compensation. Deleting the rest of the post doesn't change the meaning of your statement.

This is out of context quoting:

Quote
I just personally  can't hack it.

I'm [...] a pain in the ass.

Yes it is taken out of context. Omits the reasoning behind the conclusion, makes it looks like I'm saying I feel arbitrarily entitled to the money, which isn't true (although I expect most of you to interpret the complete statement that way anyway).

« Last Edit: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:13:12 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline Traveler

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1736 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:16:14 »
For that matter, I've actually been toying with the idea of opening up an IC/GB...for hiring a lawyer. I don't know how difficult it would be but what if we could get a lawyer to help us generate a general contract, one that could be applied to all group buys, international or otherwise? You sign it, the GB leaders sign it, and now there is a legal contract between the group buy runners and the participants, vs. the handshake agreement we have now.

I don't think there would be enough interest for something like that, but I have to admit it's an interesting idea. It would give some peace of mind to the buyers, but probably a headache for the runners. Even if your idea was successful I doubt many people who run a GB would include that feature because there's too much liability. They would possibly feature it if they were trying to profit from the GB, but it seems like most GBs are just for the sake of trying to give to the community and creating something neat.


Yuktsi

Great update, that totally ignored one of the major discussions going on right now. What are the specifics of your replacement plan?

I think Juahenza is the guy making the decisions on that, so we're at the mercy of him providing that to us. I imagine none of the team wants to say anything until the entire replacement plan is finalized. My guess is that they also aren't going to start on replacements until the rest of the orders are shipped out. That's just a guess though. Which really sucks for people with broken parts but from an efficiency standpoint I would understand. It's best to have all replacement requests reported so you can work on getting spare parts all at once.

Offline fendent

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1737 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:17:59 »
One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

You don't bill somebody for work they didn't request. I'd love to see this work order that yuktsi & co submitted to you.

Offline demorior

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1738 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:19:24 »
One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

You don't bill somebody for work they didn't request. I'd love to see this work order that yuktsi & co submitted to you.
idk if you were paying attention but yes, they did request us to repair our pcbs themselves... hence why they sent out the broken pcbs knowing they qere not fully functioning.

Offline fendent

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1739 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:20:48 »
One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

You don't bill somebody for work they didn't request. I'd love to see this work order that yuktsi & co submitted to you.
idk if you were paying attention but yes, they did request us to repair our pcbs themselves... hence why they sent out the broken pcbs knowing they qere not fully functioning.

Hm my fault then. I still don't believe billing someone for work without qualified arrangements is appropriate but whatever. :P

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1740 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:21:16 »
One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

You don't bill somebody for work they didn't request. I'd love to see this work order that yuktsi & co submitted to you.
idk if you were paying attention but yes, they did request us to repair our pcbs themselves... hence why they sent out the broken pcbs knowing they qere not fully functioning.

Not to mention After shipment had started. I, and I think a lot of us, wasn't made aware that there were PCB issues until after I received a tracking number for my keyboard.
   

Offline xondat

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1741 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:24:27 »
Maybe there should be a fee attached to every group buy as a "**** up" fund? I know I would be happy to pay into such a thing.

There is for most, and probably was for this, but you don't plan the intensity of **** ups.

For that matter, I've actually been toying with the idea of opening up an IC/GB...for hiring a lawyer. I don't know how difficult it would be but what if we could get a lawyer to help us generate a general contract, one that could be applied to all group buys, international or otherwise? You sign it, the GB leaders sign it, and now there is a legal contract between the group buy runners and the participants, vs. the handshake agreement we have now.

This is just straight up stupid. You know that won't work. You already have an agreement with the runner when you personally sign up and expect perfection, knowing that that won't happen. You ***** about the waiting with the modern IBM boards Eclipse is doing, but you know he's going for your perfection. The group buy you want where it takes no time and it's 100% doesn't, and will never exist, so make your mind up about your expectations.

As for how the group buy leaders should be dealing with their **** up fund, yeah, it really should be factored into both the timeline and the price they charge for their product. It works right? There are two cases: (A) Something goes wrong, but lucky for them they have some money to fix the problem or (B) Everything goes perfect and they keep the money, and deservedly so because they clearly ran a great GB if nothing failed.

As noted above, it's a thing that is factored in always. You make it sound easy, but you'd struggle to do better than what they are as you have no experience. Or prove everyone wrong with your lawyer GB.

Everyone would be happier if we knew that if something went wrong, we would be compensated (in one form or another) without a huge amount of hassle.

You aren't owed compensation. Only the working product. I understand you don't have that, but expecting more? C'mon dude.

Also, if you can't deal with what a group buy is, don't join one goes both ways Amnesia. Know what you're getting into if you want to run one. Sure as **** keeps me out of the game.

I wish you knew all of this going in. You shouldn't join any group buys.

One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

Do you know how long it'll take for them to fix it on their side? I'm pretty sure they said at least a few weeks. They made the (better) decision to ship it and allow purchasers but fix it, as it'll mean people getting boards sooner etc. I don't think they expected someone to constantly whine about compensation. It's ridiculous that you're this entitled. Absolutely unreasonable.

You're right though, I'm intent on making these my last group buys, but that's not necessarily because I don't give a **** about the keyboard community. No, I just personally can't hack it. The waiting, the worrying, the delays, the nervousness. It's more stress than it's worth. I basically, at this point, refuse to buy a product that isn't already sitting on a shelf in a warehouse or storage room somewhere, waiting to be shipped. The only things I'll make exceptions for are keycaps that are really special in some way to me (that's why I joined GMK 9009 R2 for example).

Good.

All that though is until I see that the community changes on a fundamental level the way it runs group buys, or in general produces products. This system we have? It's a pain in the ass. We need some more structure, some better pathways. Easy to achieve a better system? Definitely not. Necessary? I think so, otherwise we are going to repeat this cycle endlessly, until everyone gets so sick of dealing with a GB they stop joining them altogether.

I agree that the current standards held by the community and members running buys probably aren't high enough, but we can only have people such as senter set shining examples about what the perfect group buy is. Nobody aims to run a ****/slow/bad group buy, but with the amount that are happening, it's unrealistic to expect every single one to go without issues.


Yuktsi

Great update, that totally ignored one of the major discussions going on right now. What are the specifics of your replacement plan? When do you intend on shipping out replacement parts? What is the response of the group buy leadership to what's been discussed regarding replacement parts/receipt of damaged products/compensation?

As a group buy runner, you aim to deal with problems after shipping. If there are 4 problems in 100 orders, and the 10th person has a problem, you have to delay 90 people. That simply doesn't make sense to force others to wait. They'll have a plan, as they're all big names in the community, but give them time to assess everything completely and finish shipping before looking at the more serious fixes (changing packaging method does not fall under this).

Offline TerryMathews

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1742 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:38:07 »
Quote
and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation.


roflmao

Clearly you don't find it reasonable. But how about not deliberately taking a statement of mine out of context?

I don't think you understand what out of context is. He didnt take that quote out of context. You feel you're entitled to that $15-$30 in compensation. Deleting the rest of the post doesn't change the meaning of your statement.

This is out of context quoting:

Quote
I just personally  can't hack it.

I'm [...] a pain in the ass.

Yes it is taken out of context. Omits the reasoning behind the conclusion, makes it looks like I'm saying I feel arbitrarily entitled to the money, which isn't true (although I expect most of you to interpret the complete statement that way anyway).

Like I said, you don't understand the phrase your using.

From Wikipedia:

Quote
Quoting out of context (sometimes referred to as contextomy or quote mining) is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution[citation needed] in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

In what was did the quote of you distort your intended meaning? Please be specific.

ETA: This is the second time, you were using reparations incorrectly as well.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 377
Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1743 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:50:49 »
Maybe there should be a fee attached to every group buy as a "**** up" fund? I know I would be happy to pay into such a thing.
There is for most, and probably was for this, but you don't plan the intensity of **** ups.

Should be a line item on the bill then.

For that matter, I've actually been toying with the idea of opening up an IC/GB...for hiring a lawyer. I don't know how difficult it would be but what if we could get a lawyer to help us generate a general contract, one that could be applied to all group buys, international or otherwise? You sign it, the GB leaders sign it, and now there is a legal contract between the group buy runners and the participants, vs. the handshake agreement we have now.

This is just straight up stupid. You know that won't work. You already have an agreement with the runner when you personally sign up and expect perfection, knowing that that won't happen. You ***** about the waiting with the modern IBM boards Eclipse is doing, but you know he's going for your perfection. The group buy you want where it takes no time and it's 100% doesn't, and will never exist, so make your mind up about your expectations.


I know that won't work? Sorry, no I actually I don't just know that won't work. Also I'm not even going to get into the utterly ridiculous standard Ellipse calls "perfection."

As for how the group buy leaders should be dealing with their **** up fund, yeah, it really should be factored into both the timeline and the price they charge for their product. It works right? There are two cases: (A) Something goes wrong, but lucky for them they have some money to fix the problem or (B) Everything goes perfect and they keep the money, and deservedly so because they clearly ran a great GB if nothing failed.

As noted above, it's a thing that is factored in always. You make it sound easy, but you'd struggle to do better than what they are as you have no experience. Or prove everyone wrong with your lawyer GB.

I've never at any point implied anything but that running a group buy is ****ing hard. And one of the key components of the contract would be a big reward to the GB runners for completing a group buy effectively and timely.


Everyone would be happier if we knew that if something went wrong, we would be compensated (in one form or another) without a huge amount of hassle.

You aren't owed compensation. Only the working product. I understand you don't have that, but expecting more? C'mon dude.

"In one form or another" is inclusive of replacement parts. Broadband compensation, some way of dealing with getting something unexpected/defective, whatever it is.


Also, if you can't deal with what a group buy is, don't join one goes both ways Amnesia. Know what you're getting into if you want to run one. Sure as **** keeps me out of the game.

I wish you knew all of this going in. You shouldn't join any group buys.


Then I get responses like this, and wonder why I put any effort at all into thinking about and discussing the problems we deal with? Why, the love and respect I get from forum members is absolutely transcendental! And what thanks I get for taking a chance on and investing in group buys!


One other thing - For those of us that received bum PCBs, and why my "punitive" damages aren't quite that: they basically outsourced fixing the PCBs to us, the customer. Had they shipped off all the PCBs to some other group of people to get them in working order, they would have compensated that group in some way. Well, that's what they did, they just did it to us. Why should I not be paid for my time just the same? I'd charge 50$ an hour for that kind of work, it took me about an hour (once I figured out what needed to be fixed) to fix the PCB, and I'm asking for between 15$ and 30$ in compensation. Is that not reasonable? To charge for my time?

Do you know how long it'll take for them to fix it on their side? I'm pretty sure they said at least a few weeks. They made the (better) decision to ship it and allow purchasers but fix it, as it'll mean people getting boards sooner etc. I don't think they expected someone to constantly whine about compensation. It's ridiculous that you're this entitled. Absolutely unreasonable.


I'm gonna remind you that they didn't disclose the PCB problems before shipping the keyboard out. They decided for us that we would be fixing the PCB.

You're right though, I'm intent on making these my last group buys, but that's not necessarily because I don't give a **** about the keyboard community. No, I just personally can't hack it. The waiting, the worrying, the delays, the nervousness. It's more stress than it's worth. I basically, at this point, refuse to buy a product that isn't already sitting on a shelf in a warehouse or storage room somewhere, waiting to be shipped. The only things I'll make exceptions for are keycaps that are really special in some way to me (that's why I joined GMK 9009 R2 for example).

Good.

Again, such pleasantness from the community. Why I don't spend every waking moment here!

All that though is until I see that the community changes on a fundamental level the way it runs group buys, or in general produces products. This system we have? It's a pain in the ass. We need some more structure, some better pathways. Easy to achieve a better system? Definitely not. Necessary? I think so, otherwise we are going to repeat this cycle endlessly, until everyone gets so sick of dealing with a GB they stop joining them altogether.

I agree that the current standards held by the community and members running buys probably aren't high enough, but we can only have people such as senter set shining examples about what the perfect group buy is. Nobody aims to run a ****/slow/bad group buy, but with the amount that are happening, it's unrealistic to expect every single one to go without issues.


Sure. But if we don't make any efforts to bolster the possibility of a group by running exceptionally, then what the **** are we doing?


Yuktsi

Great update, that totally ignored one of the major discussions going on right now. What are the specifics of your replacement plan? When do you intend on shipping out replacement parts? What is the response of the group buy leadership to what's been discussed regarding replacement parts/receipt of damaged products/compensation?

As a group buy runner, you aim to deal with problems after shipping. If there are 4 problems in 100 orders, and the 10th person has a problem, you have to delay 90 people. That simply doesn't make sense to force others to wait. They'll have a plan, as they're all big names in the community, but give them time to assess everything completely and finish shipping before looking at the more serious fixes (changing packaging method does not fall under this).

Things can be done in parallel.



@Terry Mathews: Are you that goddamned dense? (A) The entire content surrounding that statement was removed. (B) The thesis of my statement wasn't that I'm owed money, it's that fixing a problem that was the responsibility of the group buy leadership was outsourced to us. Jesus christ I am NOT going to debate whether my use of "context" was correct. You are deliberately ignoring the content of the statement for an argument about semantics. ****.Off.

I expect opposition. I expect most of you to disagree with what I have to say, to hate me, to ridicule me, to disregard me, to insult me. But if no one acts as a voice of dissent, a voice of difference, then no new information flows into the community, and that's damaging.

That being said, I'm sick of dealing with you people for the moment. All that's coming to mind right now is the unbearable asymmetry of bull****: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294584001_The_unbearable_asymmetry_of_bull****
   

Online ygor

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1744 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:52:08 »
I generally hate all keycaps. Keycaps are for poofs. Real men touchtype on stems. Non-functional artisans are awesome, I use them for the ESC key ... escape is for cowards anyways, real men go frontal assault.

Offline MaNiFeX

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1745 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:53:08 »
As a group buy runner, you aim to deal with problems after shipping. If there are 4 problems in 100 orders, and the 10th person has a problem, you have to delay 90 people. That simply doesn't make sense to force others to wait. They'll have a plan, as they're all big names in the community, but give them time to assess everything completely and finish shipping before looking at the more serious fixes (changing packaging method does not fall under this).

Agreed.  As a fellow group buy runner, my first group buy caused me to incur costs that were not only unknown to me prior to running the buy, but also that were unexpected.  My group was extremely supportive and everyone got their sets.  I had to sell some of my assets (original set of bomb-kings) and some people chipped in some extra money to cover my costs.  I even sent out my extra set to someone who had their set lost in shipping, even though tracking said it was delivered.  International shipping is risky and is something I considered from the get-go...

Group buys are often run by a single person and they are supported by the group.  Everyone goes in with some risk, especially the group buy runner.  There is inherent monetary risk and for some, it's too much.  I mean, at least you didn't pay $100s and have the GB runner cut and run...  that's happened and why I ran my group buy "at cost," much like this one: so that the community can benefit.  I mean, some GBs have run over the span of YEARS.  The runners usually come through in the end.

TARO are doing their best to produce a quality product for a world-wide group.  I know it's upsetting, but Pancake, please give them a chance to correct any sort of issue you have.  We're all people and most group buy runners aren't doing it as a business, but a hobby, and usually at a financial loss. 

Keep it up TARO, as far as I can see you are dealing with this well and I'm sure all the issues will be dealt with.

Just my two cents/pesos/euros/etc.

MaNiFeX
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:59:45 by MaNiFeX »

Online afrokobe

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1746 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:53:33 »
lol

Offline xondat

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1747 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:58:12 »
Again, such pleasantness from the community. Why I don't spend every waking moment here!

@Terry Mathews: Are you that goddamned dense? [...] ****.Off.

:rolleyes:

I'd continue talking about your points, but it's like talking to a wall, so I tap out already.

Offline MaNiFeX

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1748 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 12:58:30 »

I expect opposition. I expect most of you to disagree with what I have to say, to hate me, to ridicule me, to disregard me, to insult me. But if no one acts as a voice of dissent, a voice of difference, then no new information flows into the community, and that's damaging.


Hey, man.  We're all people here.  I don't think it's appropriate for people to treat you this way.  We're all due what we paid for, and you are just making a case for what you feel is right. 

I try to be supportive of the community in general.  Can we all just take a deep breath and wait this out?  I promise TARO will make the issue right.  In the end, I hope you are happy with the product and will stick with the community, despite all the crap that's slung.  Keep your head up, and let's move forward.


Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB]EXENT - 65% made by TARO (In production)
« Reply #1749 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 13:16:12 »
Again, such pleasantness from the community. Why I don't spend every waking moment here!

@Terry Mathews: Are you that goddamned dense? [...] ****.Off.

:rolleyes:

I'd continue talking about your points, but it's like talking to a wall, so I tap out already.

Hey Terry Mathews? There's out of context for you.

Xondat, my thoughts exactly. You gave me a hand in the past, and I appreciate that, but our dialogue is no longer constructive.

Manifex, I will give the group buy runners a chance to deal with the problems I, and others, have had with what we've received. Though, I, personally, don't understand what is so difficult about packing an undamaged polycarbonate bottom into a box and shipping it off with the next wave of keyboards, but I would be foolish to not acknowledge that other, even unknown to me, issues with this project are complicating the logistics.

And you know what? If I were in a group buy, and the leader(s) said "hey we're in a pickle, can we talk about some ways you guys can help us out so we can make this thing work?" I would do that. I would help. But, see the thing is, my willingness to do that is predicated on the leadership having  developed a very solid, trustworthy relationship with me (and everyone else). That has not been the case with this buy, and is absolutely one of the reasons I am less than enthusiastic about letting my grievances go.

Anyway, I appreciate the support Manifex. I'm  going to do my best to take a step back now.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 December 2017, 13:21:50 by PancakeMSTR »