[GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - SORTING THE BOARDS

[roostrc0gburn]

grab the pitchforks! Watch out @jhoang, they're coming for YOU!

and you're next!

[onmybikedrunk]

and you're next!

 
 

[onmybikedrunk]

I had a lot more to say but decided to keep my big fat mouth shut. haha.

[Vloshko]

Dear jhoang,
I need you to refund me for my original invoice & send me a new invoice, in order to extend my PayPal Buyer Protection.
If you can't comply, (I don't want to resort to filing a dispute) I will dispute the purchase via PayPal. Because I know for a fact that the products I paid for will not be covered by PayPal Buyer Protection and I will lose the ability to Dispute given the current time frame for receiving said products.

I need a response, a refund, and a re-issue of the invoice before the 16th of August (I'm leaving on the 17th to Burning Man aka: I will be out there for 20 days with no internet). I have included my PayPal Transaction ID in this PM and I will be posting this same PM (minus my PayPal Transaction ID) to the E8-V1 Group Buy Thread.

Thank you,
Vloshko

[Kafka]

Jhoang just responded to my pm so he's still here


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[smittysteve]

Jhoang just responded to my pm so he's still here


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Same here... got a very nice message back from Jhoang. Hoping that he's getting caught up on keyboards and life and such and we have a strong finish to this buy. It's going to be a sick board when all is said and done and then on to the E6!

[Vloshko]

Jhoang just responded to my pm so he's still here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would love to hear from the man himself here in the thread.

[TerryMathews]

Right? I pmed him yesterday and he didn't reply. Says he's online right now too.

[jhoang]

Hey guys,

I'm gonna have a long explanation here soon.

[TerryMathews]

Hey guys,

I'm gonna have a long explanation here soon.

What constitutes "soon"? You posted this half a day ago.

[itskuroi]

imagine if it was like on the 25th of August, when 6months are over haha.

I have high hopes for this GB and for jhoang to pull through, it's just funny to think about in the long run.

[Vloshko]

Oh don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for this GB too. Security is a must though when in regards to anything financial.

[scttooo]

Also want a refund and reissue or refund depending on this explanation.

[Aperture_Sci]

I also need a reissue of invoice or I will also be disputing 100%. The lack of communication is extremely concerning, as you were very vocal in the beginning of this GB when you were collecting $. I would expect communication to be consistent throughout the entire process - I remember the original shipping date was stated to be in May, we are now 3 months past the expected ETA. I don't think going MIA for days/ weeks at the most crucial point of a GB is professionial.

Crossing my fingers for some type of good explanation along with clear and concise steps that will be taken to fulfill this order to everyone in the GB in a timely manner. And will also be waiting for the cancellation and reissue of the PayPal invoice, or sadly I will dispute this charge.

[UsualSuspectXXX]

Hey guys,

I'm gonna have a long explanation here soon.

Soon? Where is this explanation? I think we are all due the courtesy of a little communication when we are 3 months past ship date and 11 days before PayPal dispute period is over. You're cutting it close on this one jhoang

[jhoang]

Hello everyone,

Firstly, I'm so so so sorry for all.
The GB has being delayed for a long time.

I will explain the reason here today.

1. This is our very first GB. I have learned many lessons for our next projects.
2. Paypal was terrible. They held 50% amount of money for 6 months or until this GB finished (Paypal needs me to prove). I have used my own money for running this Group Buy. http://i.imgur.com/peQ3yU9.jpg | Paypal reviewed my account and released 50% money after 1 month. This is the first reason why GB was delayed.
3. Everything seemed be fine when I received the boards from Exclusive a month ago. Unfortunately, there were some problems with the plates and name plates:
- All name plates got scratches. Because Exclusive did not pack it carefully. All name plates need to be re-anodize. This is how Exclusive packed the name plates (http://i.imgur.com/DJUyLQR.jpg?1). All name plates got scratches (http://i.imgur.com/k6xuLUg.jpg)
- The plates are wrong because Exclusive got wrong design. We need to fix them and re-anodize. I asked Exclusive to fix them and re-anodize. But Exclusive was not sure about fixing them. So I fixed them in Vietnam. I asked a friend for CNC. I sent the plates to that guy. He fixed them. But he was busy on his business in 2 weeks later. I got them back late.  (http://i.imgur.com/RodZgbd.jpg) http://i.imgur.com/7GhUafs.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Q7CoZUS.jpg
- Then I shipped all plates and name plates (in a package) to China (Exclusive) for re-anodizing. Unfortunately, again, China temporary closed their border. This is the reason why the package still not delivered. I don't know why, but Chinese people in border said China would have war. It seems a joke. But it's serious. Because every shipping service from China to Vietnam are frozen now. But I got a good news today. The package has been sent. Exclusive would receive the package in 2 days.

I will ship out the boards right after when I receive fixed name plates and plates from Exclusive.

I don't really want it to be delayed. I have many things to do.

E6 is being delayed again. Someone are disputing my Paypal. And it seems a disaster to me again. Paypal is hell. You guys can trust Paypal. Because they are still holding my money. I cannot get money from Paypal until this GB finished.
All my future payments will be held 30% amount of money for 3 months. That's it. Paypal is really bad to Asian people.

I have learned many lessons from this Group Buy.

I'm just trying to do my best.

I hope you guys can understand my situation.

I will re-new your invoices. But I need to make it one by one. Because all money are being held by Paypal. I cannot refund unless I transfer more money to my account.

A guy sent messages to me, he said I would not ship the boards. I got money and keep all the boards.

Well. Why do I need to do it?
Oh no, my money is still being held by Paypal. I cannot get it until finish this Group Buy.  I have used my own money to send to Exclusive also.
I keep  100 boards for what? For my future children using as their toys?
I have other projects to do.
Many people in Vietnam know me. So please don't be worried. I cannot go anywhere.
I'm so disappointed.
But I know how you guys feel now. So please give me the time.

Thank you for your patience!

[jhoang]

BTW, this is my facebook account.
https://www.facebook.com/namhoang159

You guys can contact me via Facebook.

[jhoang]

For assembled invoices, we have bought all stuffs and be ready for assemble right after we receive the plates. So no worries about delay for these invoices.
Thanks!

[jhoang]

I also need a reissue of invoice or I will also be disputing 100%. The lack of communication is extremely concerning, as you were very vocal in the beginning of this GB when you were collecting $. I would expect communication to be consistent throughout the entire process - I remember the original shipping date was stated to be in May, we are now 3 months past the expected ETA. I don't think going MIA for days/ weeks at the most crucial point of a GB is professionial.

Crossing my fingers for some type of good explanation along with clear and concise steps that will be taken to fulfill this order to everyone in the GB in a timely manner. And will also be waiting for the cancellation and reissue of the PayPal invoice, or sadly I will dispute this charge.

I have used my own money for running this Group Buy.

I had a mistake on calculating shipping fees. (http://i.imgur.com/A5EJF9E.png) I did not count extra fees.
The kit price increased. You can ask Exclusive for this.
So I have to pay my own money for this GB. 

I don't want to say this. But I don't collect a cent from this GB.  I even lost my own money.

ANW, I will refund your invoice.

[Shados]

Hey jhoang, don't worry about refunding & re-issuing my invoice, I'm not particularly worried.

[jhoang]

Hey jhoang, don't worry about refunding & re-issuing my invoice, I'm not particularly worried.

Thank you for your understanding! I'm really appreciated.
Because my paypal account is going crazy again.
During the group buy, i have called PayPal service in Singapore 20-30 times. My phone bill was $150 at least for international phone calls... 

[skidude9678]

I hope people put away the pitchforks on this one now

[pixelpusher]

Thanks for the update. I see that you learned a lot in your first group buy (hopefully not your last).  The PayPal money thing seems to happen quite often.  This is my 3rd group buy with the same issue.

 It really would have helped everyone if we would have known these things as they happened.  People make mistakes (exclusive's bad packaging, your miscalculation of shipping), things come up that you cannot control (PayPal and China's mysterious war?), so most of us will be quite understanding if you just let us know what is happening. 

What was a mystery to us all was why you remained silent on this thread.

Anyway, I hope it all gets sorted out soon and that you don't give up on group buys in the future. 

[OfTheWild]

Sounds like you need a US based proxy for running groupbuys.
With all that has happened with this i'm surprised you proceeded overlapping with the E6 groupbuy before this one completed and closed. I think thats what makes a lot of people nervous.

Regardless im not overly concerned with the money aspect (or i wouldnt be buying expensive keyboards right!? lol). I just hope that you can get this sorted out for the community's sake. Good luck!
 

[onmybikedrunk]

I'm happy to see people calming down on this one. I almost broke out the bullhorn more than once and now I’m just gonna let’r rip…  IMO Jhoang has not given us a reason enough to go as far as asking him to refund/reprocess invoices.  He has been very communicative (yes with bouts of radio-silence but that's every GB), given us tons of pictures, acceptable explanations for late arrivals, shown us the manufacturing process and been overly honest about everything.  I am somewhat appalled at the mob mentality here.


Can you imagine if everyone demanded to be refunded just for Jhoang to be paid back?  I mean the money is spent, the boards are done. That means he would have to come up with tens of thousands of dollars just for reprocessing purposes.  Not to mention the logistics of doing that via international banking systems. What about if a few people who get the "refund" decide to ditch the GB?  What would that mean for Jhoang and the boards that go unpaid for? I have seen firsthand the issues with moving money from the western world to Asia and it's not pretty. I don't doubt the screen shots and claims Jhoang has posted of his PayPal even in the slightest.  And if people start opening PayPal cases, that would be worse.  PayPal basically demands that 100% of the money in question gets put on hold until the buyer deems the case settled.  This means if all the funds are not already in his account then his bank accounts would be frozen and god knows what else.  PayPal was NOT built with the group buy in mind and this act would be extremely unfair and should only be used in absolute fraud scenarios.


 In the past five years of being part of this community I have seen it grow significantly during which I witnessed many group buys and can only think of a small handful that have gone wrong (none of which I was a part of thankfully).  Money and personal finance is always a concern but we are also spending hundreds if not thousands a year on keyboards here… I don’t think any of us are dumpster diving for dinner anytime soon.  It’s obviously important to be aware and stay on top of issues within a group buy but it’s another thing to start pointing fingers and making extraordinary demands without 100% concrete solid reason.  I see a lot of new faces here and maybe making a distinction between a potential fraud scenario and a group buy that has simply taken a toll on a stressed-out leader comes with experience.  Also, I’m afraid to say it but not all people may not be equipped to handle the risks/stress of being part of a group buy.  It’s harsh, but it’s the truth.  At the same time, again, I am certainly not blaming anyone here for looking out for themselves…  Before making a jump from raising constructive, healthy awareness concerning miscommunications (as my good friends Roostrc0gburn and smittysteve did in their original posts – love those guys!) to demanding refunds we should scrutinize the evidences/situation a little more meticulously.

[skidude9678]

Very well said.

[Auxo]

I'm happy to see people calming down on this one. I almost broke out the bullhorn more than once and now I’m just gonna let’r rip…  IMO Jhoang has not given us a reason enough to go as far as asking him to refund/reprocess invoices.  He has been very communicative (yes with bouts of radio-silence but that's every GB), given us tons of pictures, acceptable explanations for late arrivals, shown us the manufacturing process and been overly honest about everything.  I am somewhat appalled at the mob mentality here.


Can you imagine if everyone demanded to be refunded just for Jhoang to be paid back?  I mean the money is spent, the boards are done. That means he would have to come up with tens of thousands of dollars just for reprocessing purposes.  Not to mention the logistics of doing that via international banking systems. What about if a few people who get the "refund" decide to ditch the GB?  What would that mean for Jhoang and the boards that go unpaid for? I have seen firsthand the issues with moving money from the western world to Asia and it's not pretty. I don't doubt the screen shots and claims Jhoang has posted of his PayPal even in the slightest.  And if people start opening PayPal cases, that would be worse.  PayPal basically demands that 100% of the money in question gets put on hold until the buyer deems the case settled.  This means if all the funds are not already in his account then his bank accounts would be frozen and god knows what else.  PayPal was NOT built with the group buy in mind and this act would be extremely unfair and should only be used in absolute fraud scenarios.


 In the past five years of being part of this community I have seen it grow significantly during which I witnessed many group buys and can only think of a small handful that have gone wrong (none of which I was a part of thankfully).  Money and personal finance is always a concern but we are also spending hundreds if not thousands a year on keyboards here… I don’t think any of us are dumpster diving for dinner anytime soon.  It’s obviously important to be aware and stay on top of issues within a group buy but it’s another thing to start pointing fingers and making extraordinary demands without 100% concrete solid reason.  I see a lot of new faces here and maybe making a distinction between a potential fraud scenario and a group buy that has simply taken a toll on a stressed-out leader comes with experience.  Also, I’m afraid to say it but not all people may not be equipped to handle the risks/stress of being part of a group buy.  It’s harsh, but it’s the truth.  At the same time, again, I am certainly not blaming anyone here for looking out for themselves…  Before making a jump from raising constructive, healthy awareness concerning miscommunications (as my good friends Roostrc0gburn and smittysteve did in their original posts – love those guys!) to demanding refunds we should scrutinize the evidences/situation a little more meticulously.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I was also talking with jhoang about all of this before the payment was submitted and he showed me screenshots of the money being frozen and him using his own personal funds to make sure this project moved forward. He's pretty dedicated and is working insanely hard to make sure everything is moving as smoothly as it can on the back end.

Jhoang, thank you for all of your hard work!! I am so looking forward to the end product!!

[whentheclouds]

^ very reasonable post which raises a number of good points, some of which i will try to contend from the others' viewpoint:

- jhoang was indeed very communicative at the start of the buy, but his updates became less and less frequent the deeper we got into the buy. even if he were to maintain his presence in the thread with just a 'no progress' post, people would have much less apprehension about the buy. as it is, radio silence for weeks on end is usually the first sign of a GB gone sour.

- the apprehension perhaps stem from what i can only guess at as a changing culture here. people are now much more wary of falling victim to another GON, Ivan, etc. (i don't agree with your assessment that only a small number of incidents have occurred). you can see very similar reactions in the Mech27-TKL GB when 27 vanished for a period of time. i don't think people's prudence is to blame here, bui rahter it is up to the GB organizer to dispel any doubts and fear the moment they appear, something jhoang/exclusive did not do a good job of imho.

- you make a good point about not jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence. however, it is the LACK of evidence that causes people to make the leap in judgment here. when you're behind the GB end projection date by 3 months, and you've only let people know once that Paypal froze your money, with no further public updates about the situation or newly arisen difficulties (mainly talking about the plate fiasco here), it is understandable that people start fearing the worst. starting a new GB while leaving PMs unreplied (according to what some posters said) does NOT in any way restore buyers' confidence, in fact i have a niggling suspicion it might have the opposite effect. while it's easy for you to say that everyone should have more faith in the buy (in light of jhoang's update), it's not possible to show more understanding and sympathy when all we had to work with was what i posted above. edit: in fact i think everyone was very patient throughout the last few months, i recall reading no complaints during the may - early july period about the delays. it was just the E6 GB being opened coinciding with the expiration of paypal invoice dispute dates that spooked a number of buyers

all that said, the worst is behind us and we can look forward to the conclusion of this buy soon. i hope this whole endeavor hasn't stressed jhoang and exclusive out too much and that you guys are in it for the long haul!

[amnesia0287]

- jhoang was indeed very communicative at the start of the buy, but his updates became less and less frequent the deeper we got into the buy. even if he were to maintain his presence in the thread with just a 'no progress' post, people would have much less apprehension about the buy. as it is, radio silence for weeks on end is usually the first sign of a GB gone sour.

- the apprehension perhaps stem from what i can only guess at as a changing culture here. people are now much more wary of falling victim to another GON, Ivan, etc. (i don't agree with your assessment that only a small number of incidents have occurred). you can see very similar reactions in the Mech27-TKL GB when 27 vanished for a period of time. i don't think people's prudence is to blame here, bui rahter it is up to the GB organizer to dispel any doubts and fear the moment they appear, something jhoang/exclusive did not do a good job of imho.

- you make a good point about not jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence. however, it is the LACK of evidence that causes people to make the leap in judgment here. when you're behind the GB end projection date by 3 months, and you've only let people know once that Paypal froze your money, with no further public updates about the situation or newly arisen difficulties (mainly talking about the plate fiasco here), it is understandable that people start fearing the worst. starting a new GB while leaving PMs unreplied (according to what some posters said) does NOT in any way restore buyers' confidence, in fact i have a niggling suspicion it might have the opposite effect. while it's easy for you to say that everyone should have more faith in the buy (in light of jhoang's update), it's not possible to show more understanding and sympathy when all we had to work with was what i posted above. edit: in fact i think everyone was very patient throughout the last few months, i recall reading no complaints during the may - early july period about the delays. it was just the E6 GB being opened coinciding with the expiration of paypal invoice dispute dates that spooked a number of buyers

So what you are saying is that when jhoang had lots of information to provide updates... he provided lots of updates... and when he had less information to provide... he provided fewer updates? because to me that sounds pretty normal.

I totally agree he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by doing a weekly "nothing new to report" update, but I'm not sure I understand what the complexity is here. He has provided updates whenever he had anything to report, which to me would indicate that if he has made no recent posts, he has nothing to report. Plus by my understanding he's been responding to all PMs just fine.

It is one thing to expect immediate response from Amazon... because amazon employees thousands of people to provide an immediate response, but just because that is what you are accustomed to, does NOT mean that should be the expectation. I feel like when you are doing orders on a time scale of months, a FEW days to respond is not really unreasonable. People have lives.

You have some odd expectations of GB runners tho. It is the job of the GB organizer to ensure the products purchased are produced/qc'd/packed/shipped, not hold the buyers hand and dispel any paranoia that they might encounter. Don't get me wrong, great communication IS important and a great asset for a GB organizer, but where is the line? What is enough communication? If the GB Organizer updates you every time they have ANYTHING to update you on, what is the benefit of getting updates when there is nothing to report? What are you even paranoid about? Do you think jhoang really wants thousands in paypal disputes so he can decorate his floor with TKL cases? This isn't like Ivan (he got me on miami nights) where the money was never spent. The cases already exist, the money is already gone.

But let's look at the recent timeline:

7/18 - Update that cases are being delivered
7/20 - Update that plates were wrong
8/10 - Update that plates have been remade and and are being anodized.
8/28 - Update regarding issue with shipping plates.
9/15 - Update regarding current state.

To me it looks like he's been pretty consistent and provided an update every 2-3 weeks (or whenever there was something to update people ABOUT).


PS You do understand that a "LACK of evidence" is the definition of insufficient evidence right?

[whentheclouds]

So what you are saying is that when jhoang had lots of information to provide updates... he provided lots of updates... and when he had less information to provide... he provided fewer updates? because to me that sounds pretty normal.

I totally agree he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by doing a weekly "nothing new to report" update, but I'm not sure I understand what the complexity is here. He has provided updates whenever he had anything to report, which to me would indicate that if he has made no recent posts, he has nothing to report. Plus by my understanding he's been responding to all PMs just fine.

It is one thing to expect immediate response from Amazon... because amazon employees thousands of people to provide an immediate response, but just because that is what you are accustomed to, does NOT mean that should be the expectation. I feel like when you are doing orders on a time scale of months, a FEW days to respond is not really unreasonable. People have lives.

You have some odd expectations of GB runners tho. It is the job of the GB organizer to ensure the products purchased are produced/qc'd/packed/shipped, not hold the buyers hand and dispel any paranoia that they might encounter. Don't get me wrong, great communication IS important and a great asset for a GB organizer, but where is the line? What is enough communication? If the GB Organizer updates you every time they have ANYTHING to update you on, what is the benefit of getting updates when there is nothing to report? What are you even paranoid about? Do you think jhoang really wants thousands in paypal disputes so he can decorate his floor with TKL cases? This isn't like Ivan (he got me on miami nights) where the money was never spent. The cases already exist, the money is already gone.

But let's look at the recent timeline:

7/18 - Update that cases are being delivered
7/20 - Update that plates were wrong
8/10 - Update that plates have been remade and and are being anodized.
8/28 - Update regarding issue with shipping plates.
9/15 - Update regarding current state.

To me it looks like he's been pretty consistent and provided an update every 2-3 weeks (or whenever there was something to update people ABOUT).


PS You do understand that a "LACK of evidence" is the definition of insufficient evidence right?

- he could have provided a lot more info imo. for example, we were never told how the plates would be fixed. from the screenshots you can see that he tried to contact his friend who did the CNC for weeks, to no avail. perhaps an update about that? it wasn't until days ago that people were still arguing if the plates actually went missing or not. you can also see from the screenshots that jhoang was very anxious about his friend's unresponsiveness. a mirror of the situation here perhaps..

- i think my expectations are very reasonable when you take the full context of the buy into account. as a general rule imo, enough communication is when people have enough faith in the GB to complete without incidence or otherwise unexpected surprises (a delay here and there does not count). once people start doubting, that's when you need to start talking. like i said, i think people have been very patient during the initial period of delay (may - early july). a very short/vague update every 2-3 weeks when your GB is already behind by 2 and a half months (counting from 7/18) is hardly enough (this is not even mentioning the soft promises made, such as exclusive's 'shipping by next week' on the 2nd of Aug). at that point a post like "Starting another GB before replying to our PMs " (yes an actual quote) is enough to get people worried, because at that point it resembles the start of just about every failed GB i've seen. and it wasn't even because of that really, people didn't panic en masse until about a week ago.

- the judgment/lack of evidence seems to be somewhat of a chicken and egg problem. nevertheless, at that point the mood of the thread had already changed. again i don't think it's fair to lay blame on those looking out for themselves, which is one of the main reasons i wrote my previous post

[yuppie]

Got any leftovers? Kind of want to buy one of these things...

[Auxo]

Got any leftovers? Kind of want to buy one of these things...

If he refunds and reissues invoices, i have a feeling a handful of people will just take that chance and back out lol

[Vloshko]

2. Paypal was terrible. They held 50% amount of money for 6 months or until this GB finished (Paypal needs me to prove). I have used my own money for running this Group Buy. http://i.imgur.com/peQ3yU9.jpg | Paypal reviewed my account and released 50% money after 1 month. This is the first reason why GB was delayed.

... I will re-new your invoices. But I need to make it one by one. Because all money are being held by Paypal. I cannot refund unless I transfer more money to my account.

jhoang, firstly I understand. Second, as far as "2" goes above release this information next time. Finally, thank you for the last part I quoted about renewing invoices. We all want to see this GB as a success.  A few of us may have gotten worried due to a lack of understanding about certain finer details. If I were in your position I would definitely feel overwhelmed. Go forward knowing that what's been happening on your end is understandable. This is your first GB, so let's all move forward with accepting what some may call errors and learn better ways to create stability, security, and generate confidence; it seems like you're already working to do so.

I'm not saying y'all shouldn't continue to critique, I'd vote for more constructive thoughts though, whether they be criticism or praise, since I'm fairly positive everyone involved in a GB want to see (all) GB's achieve their goals.

P.S. Does anyone know a system that works better for GB's than PayPal? I often see the holding of funds issue come up in many GB's. Is it simply unavoidable? If it's unavoidable, I think future GB organizers should factor this in and tell people up front.

[UsualSuspectXXX]

Thanks for the update jhoang.

Just to put this out there, I am not requesting a re-invoice, but I don't think that it is unreasonable for people to ask. A post from the GB runner every couple of weeks goes a long way in maintaining trust. Just enough for everyone to see that you're still around and active keeps a lot of people happy. Just sayin'

[Auxo]

2. Paypal was terrible. They held 50% amount of money for 6 months or until this GB finished (Paypal needs me to prove). I have used my own money for running this Group Buy. http://i.imgur.com/peQ3yU9.jpg | Paypal reviewed my account and released 50% money after 1 month. This is the first reason why GB was delayed.

... I will re-new your invoices. But I need to make it one by one. Because all money are being held by Paypal. I cannot refund unless I transfer more money to my account.

jhoang, firstly I understand. Second, as far as "2" goes above release this information next time. Finally, thank you for the last part I quoted about renewing invoices. We all want to see this GB as a success.  A few of us may have gotten worried due to a lack of understanding about certain finer details. If I were in your position I would definitely feel overwhelmed. Go forward knowing that what's been happening on your end is understandable. This is your first GB, so let's all move forward with accepting what some may call errors and learn better ways to create stability, security, and generate confidence; it seems like you're already working to do so.

I'm not saying y'all shouldn't continue to critique, I'd vote for more constructive thoughts though, whether they be criticism or praise, since I'm fairly positive everyone involved in a GB want to see (all) GB's achieve their goals.

P.S. Does anyone know a system that works better for GB's than PayPal? I often see the holding of funds issue come up in many GB's. Is it simply unavoidable? If it's unavoidable, I think future GB organizers should factor this in and tell people up front.

I originally suggested Stripe, as I've heard relatively good things about it (haven't used it myself though). It may be worth looking into, if PayPal is already the bottom of the ladder, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try out a different money-transfer service

[JDragon]

For the Revo/Dr. D GB, RevoTeam issued new invoices and refunded the old ones after the new ones were paid. I would be willing to do that to keep PayPal buyer protection.

[gt1989]

For the Revo/Dr. D GB, RevoTeam issued new invoices and refunded the old ones after the new ones were paid. I would be willing to do that to keep PayPal buyer protection.

I'm willing to do the same, I'd even be willing to pay the extra fees for shipping that weren't accounted for in the original invoice.

[Aox]

I'm plenty happy to stay in and get my hardware, but I would REALLY like to skip and get refunded for assembly.

[Vloshko]

For the Revo/Dr. D GB, RevoTeam issued new invoices and refunded the old ones after the new ones were paid. I would be willing to do that to keep PayPal buyer protection.

Funny, I had the same idea

[smittysteve]

I'm happy to see people calming down on this one. I almost broke out the bullhorn more than once and now I’m just gonna let’r rip…  IMO Jhoang has not given us a reason enough to go as far as asking him to refund/reprocess invoices.  He has been very communicative (yes with bouts of radio-silence but that's every GB), given us tons of pictures, acceptable explanations for late arrivals, shown us the manufacturing process and been overly honest about everything.  I am somewhat appalled at the mob mentality here.


Can you imagine if everyone demanded to be refunded just for Jhoang to be paid back?  I mean the money is spent, the boards are done. That means he would have to come up with tens of thousands of dollars just for reprocessing purposes.  Not to mention the logistics of doing that via international banking systems. What about if a few people who get the "refund" decide to ditch the GB?  What would that mean for Jhoang and the boards that go unpaid for? I have seen firsthand the issues with moving money from the western world to Asia and it's not pretty. I don't doubt the screen shots and claims Jhoang has posted of his PayPal even in the slightest.  And if people start opening PayPal cases, that would be worse.  PayPal basically demands that 100% of the money in question gets put on hold until the buyer deems the case settled.  This means if all the funds are not already in his account then his bank accounts would be frozen and god knows what else.  PayPal was NOT built with the group buy in mind and this act would be extremely unfair and should only be used in absolute fraud scenarios.


 In the past five years of being part of this community I have seen it grow significantly during which I witnessed many group buys and can only think of a small handful that have gone wrong (none of which I was a part of thankfully).  Money and personal finance is always a concern but we are also spending hundreds if not thousands a year on keyboards here… I don’t think any of us are dumpster diving for dinner anytime soon.  It’s obviously important to be aware and stay on top of issues within a group buy but it’s another thing to start pointing fingers and making extraordinary demands without 100% concrete solid reason.  I see a lot of new faces here and maybe making a distinction between a potential fraud scenario and a group buy that has simply taken a toll on a stressed-out leader comes with experience.  Also, I’m afraid to say it but not all people may not be equipped to handle the risks/stress of being part of a group buy.  It’s harsh, but it’s the truth.  At the same time, again, I am certainly not blaming anyone here for looking out for themselves…  Before making a jump from raising constructive, healthy awareness concerning miscommunications (as my good friends Roostrc0gburn and smittysteve did in their original posts – love those guys!) to demanding refunds we should scrutinize the evidences/situation a little more meticulously.

Very well said, brother Bike. :hearteyes: for you as well!

Jhoang, thanks for the thorough explanation here and sharing your thoughts in PM as well. I echo others and thank you very much for bringing these boards to us and for all you're doing to shepherd this buy across the finish line (then move on to the E6-V2 of course). As onmybike mentioned, almost all of us fully expect delays and I've said it in other buys, but once I'm in, I'm rooting for you to pull this off. GBs are really a lot like Kickstarter for me- I'm emotionally invested in the product and team and I for one (and I think many others) actually enjoy experiencing the ups and downs of the process with you. It makes holding the board that much sweeter in the end when we experience the good and the bad bits with you along the way. For the E6, I still encourage that- overshare with us and let us in on the ride.

gt1989 said this earlier, but I don't want you to eat the mistake on shipping either. Let us know how much the difference was and I'll send along the difference- bet you'll be surprised with how many GH brethren will do the same. We know this isn't charity work and want you to end up ahead of the game and happy you brought this to GH (not cursing us all!) when these beauties are delivered. 

[kbdfans]

looks great

[TerryMathews]

For the Revo/Dr. D GB, RevoTeam issued new invoices and refunded the old ones after the new ones were paid. I would be willing to do that to keep PayPal buyer protection.

Same

[OfTheWild]

Yeah agreed. If he refunds people and expects them to pay again I believe a large percentage of people will not re-buy the board and simply move on... which screws him out of his own money. Theres really no good way to go about it other than making people pay again and then refunding the old invoice.

I for one dont really care. Kinda the point of spending a lot of money on keyboards, its not money i'm concerned with.

[nevaenuf]

I've been on this board for about a year and have participated in many group buys.  I've been fortunate so far to not lose any cash on a buy that's gone south. In the short year or so that I've been in this community, I've seen it grow much larger.  As community members become vendors, and build businesses around these buys, buyers begin to expect a certain level of customer service.  Perhaps this may be the case because we find these buys all through geekhack, regardless of whether they are vendor buys or not.  But, people's expectations are changing.  The question becomes are these expectations unreasonable?

Maybe GB runners can establish a communication contract / protocol early on so that these kinds of things don't happen.  A large thrill of participating in a group buy for me is to be part of the whole process.  It's very interesting how one of these keyboards get's built.  I don't just spend 400+ dollars on a keyboard for a turnkey product.  Regular communication could actually serve to make a buy a lot more fun.  We are already willing to take on a certain amount of risk and wait months for a product to be built.  Is it asking too much even for a first time GB runner to establish and adhere to a communication protocol? 

BTW, I didn't realize that this was a first-time GB.  Perhaps I missed it or I forgot.  I don't know.  I've got a lot of cash floating around in GB's right now, so some times it's hard to keep up with.  But I actually think MORE communication is required for a first time GB than less.

[nevaenuf]

So I lied.  It's been over two years.  Time flies.

I've been on this board for about a year and have participated in many group buys.  I've been fortunate so far to not lose any cash on a buy that's gone south. In the short year or so that I've been in this community, I've seen it grow much larger.  As community members become vendors and build businesses around these buys, buyers begin to expect a certain level of customer service.  Perhaps this may be the case because we find these buys all through geekhack, regardless of whether they are vendor buys or not.  But, people's expectations are changing.  The question becomes are these expectations unreasonable?

Maybe GB runners can establish a communication contract / protocol early on so that these kinds of things don't happen.  A large thrill of participating in a group buy for me is to be part of the whole process.  It's very interesting how one of these keyboards get's built.  I don't just spend 400+ dollars on a keyboard for a turnkey product.  Regular communication could actually serve to make a buy a lot more fun.  We are already willing to take on a certain amount of risk and wait months for a product to be built.  Is it asking too much even for a first time GB runner to establish and adhere to a communication protocol? 

BTW, I didn't realize that this was a first-time GB.  Perhaps I missed it or I forgot.  I don't know.  I've got a lot of cash floating around in GB's right now, so some times it's hard to keep up with.  But I actually think MORE communication is required for a first time GB than less.

[Vloshko]

I'll stay in and not request a new invoice.

[Patchwrks]

Possibly selling my spot.  PM me

EXTRA-GIFT: 1 of 2 E2-V1 Numpads that exist.

#7 board
Founders Edition
WKL
Dark Grey / Silver / Dark Grey / Brass Weight
Blue / Red Nameplate engraved with "E8-V1 Founder Edition"

Assembled

84 keys (winkeyless - 7u spacebar)
Stepped (off-centered) Capslock
Stabilizer: Zealio Transparent
Switches: Cherry Vintage Blacks 1980s
Winkeyless.kr Springs 58g
White Sticker
White LEDs
Backlit
Transparent Top Covers
Tuning: Full Tuning Packages (include: lubing, sticker, hot-swappable LEDs, change springs ..)

[afrokobe]

whats going on with this?  Did Jhoang get plates or not? 

[roostrc0gburn]

whats going on with this?  Did Jhoang get plates or not? 

i have already put in a ping to exclusive to see if he has them. he has not responded yet, so that could mean he is working on them. i would not jump to conclusions yet. this is the crux of the issue, though.

jhoang - any update from your shipper? still no word about the plates. you promised they would be delivered two days ago. it has been more than 2 months since you knew the plates needed to be fixed. i truly am sorry to hear everything is going crazy for you, but it seems like you have created this issue for yourself. we are all still waiting for a definite update on when we can expect shipping

[Aperture_Sci]

So I hear what everyone is saying, I jumped on the bandwagon of being mad and requested a refund - maybe that isn't the best idea - but what can we do at this point? As roostr brought up, I am not a fan of the disappearances - we knew about these plate issues over a month or two ago. I really appreciate his update a few days ago, but he did state that the plates were going to be delivered by now. I feel like he should have at least updated us if they were/ weren't, has he spoken to whoever received them and is working on them and what the ETA is, etc.

Any news is good news at this point. I truly feel Jhoang is a great guy who is trying his best and there is no ill intentions, however, I also feel that this GB is just getting a little sketchy and am becoming worried if a product will ever be delivered. As someone who has been in this hobby for ~3 years and have had GB's fall through be successful, be delayed, etc, I've experienced the whole range. I just do not like that an ETA is unable to be given.

The board looks amazing and it is literally end game, so I hope this works out. Now my dilemma is I have 2 days for PayPal protection and unsure what to do.