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Offline methecsgod

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Help! Need a similar keyboard!
« on: Sun, 11 April 2010, 23:26:30 »
Hello,

I used a membrane MITSUMI KFKEA4XT for a long time. Now that it's gone, I cannot find a replacement.

Would anyone recommend any modern keyboards with a similar feel? Price is not an issue. Thank you.

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #1 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 00:05:18 »
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Mitsumi-KFKEA4XT-104-Key-PS-2-Desktop-Keyboard-/360246121620#ht_2687wt_754

7 available
You better hurry up this is a HOT deal!

why someone would like a mitsumi dome keyboard is beyond me :)
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #2 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 00:06:22 »
Quote from: methecsgod;171535
Hello,

I used a membrane MITSUMI KFKEA4XT for a long time. Now that it's gone, I cannot find a replacement.

Would anyone recommend any modern keyboards with a similar feel? Price is not an issue. Thank you.


do you want another MITSUMI KFKEA4XT to replace it with? there seem to be plenty available.

also if you want a similar one you'll have to describe the key feel; i dont think its a very commonly used board in the US. What was so great about that board?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Nonmouse

  • Posts: 298
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« Reply #3 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 00:21:37 »
Quote

7 available

Quote
The photos are of the actual item that the winner will receive


o.O

Offline methecsgod

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« Reply #4 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 00:46:01 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171539
What was so great about that board?


The squishy feel and the low thumping sound.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
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« Reply #5 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 01:03:23 »
Quote from: methecsgod;171542
The squishy feel and the low thumping sound.


Lets file this under "additional evidence that it takes all kinds" ;-)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Nonmouse

  • Posts: 298
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« Reply #6 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 01:06:35 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171543
Lets file this under "additional evidence that it takes all kinds" ;-)


Nods and backs slowly out of the thread....

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #7 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 01:11:13 »
Quote from: Nonmouse;171544
Nods and backs slowly out of the thread....


rofl ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline methecsgod

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Help! Need a similar keyboard!
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 01:17:22 »
Basically, I'm asking if there any high-quality rubber dome keyboards out there.

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #9 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 01:26:22 »
Consider the topre line.
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce

They are certainly the most expensive rubber dome based keyboards out there.  And they feel pretty nice for sure, I have owned two of them previously.
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #10 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 10:12:57 »
Quote from: methecsgod;171546
Basically, I'm asking if there any high-quality rubber dome keyboards out there.

Yes, and not just fancy bourgeoisie ones.

Don't let anyone dictate your tastes.

ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #11 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 10:13:49 »
Quote from: elbowglue;171547
Consider the topre line.
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce

They are certainly the most expensive rubber dome based keyboards out there.  And they feel pretty nice for sure, I have owned two of them previously.


Why'd you sell yours?
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #12 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 10:15:02 »
Keytronic or IBM rubber boards are good, cheap, plentiful.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #13 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 10:48:41 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;171587
Why'd you sell yours?

I found my PCB mounted cherry browns to be superior in terms of rebound force, resulting in a bounciness that assisted in typing faster.  Cherry browns require less effort of my fingers (in terms of lifting my fingers)

Topres were good for the following reasons, they bottomed out in a nice cushy fashion, they had a nice feeling when sliding down, the 45 gram keys have a snap much like a blue cherry at the actuation point, the keys were high quality (but get shiny after a while), the NKRO.  I did not prefer the lower gram keys (30 and 35gram keys) as they were less responsive.  Topres do feel like typing on clay tablets - but clay tablets don't bounce your fingers back like springs do.

My wife didn't like topres because she prefers the massive clicking associated with her pink blue cherry filco.  I can't get her to stray from it at all.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2010, 10:52:18 by elbowglue »
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #14 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 11:05:47 »
Quote from: didjamatic;171588
Keytronic or IBM rubber boards are good, cheap, plentiful.


i still want to try a keytronic. one of these days i'll part with $25 and get one of those lifetime series ones on ebay I guess. Just to know what it is.

I watched youtube videos of the das original (supposedly a rebranded keytronic) and its surprisingly loud for a dome board.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #15 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 11:47:04 »
Quote from: elbowglue;171595
I found my PCB mounted cherry browns to be superior in terms of rebound force, resulting in a bounciness that assisted in typing faster.  Cherry browns require less effort of my fingers (in terms of lifting my fingers)

This.  I like the Cherry brown bounce.  Topre just can't replicate that.


Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #16 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 11:48:06 »
Rumor has it those fingerprints were lifted off a Cherry MX11900 confirm/deny?
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #17 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 12:00:58 »
Quote
i still want to try a keytronic. one of these days i'll part with $25 and get one of those lifetime series ones on ebay I guess. Just to know what it is.


I have a Designer P2 that I'll send you for shipping plus a buck fifty (bottle of coke zero), but honestly I don't think you'll like it, given your tastes (which aren't far off from mine I don't think). It's an unimpressive rubber dome that tries to emulate mechanical switch and kinda fails at delivering the qualities of either. It's friggin gargantuan while managing to still be light and flimsy. The keys have an unrefined friction that's almost like sticking. Just IMO.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #18 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 12:11:55 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171610
I have a Designer P2 that I'll send you for shipping plus a buck fifty (bottle of coke zero), but honestly I don't think you'll like it, given your tastes (which aren't far off from mine I don't think). It's an unimpressive rubber dome that tries to emulate mechanical switch and kinda fails at delivering the qualities of either. It's friggin gargantuan while managing to still be light and flimsy. The keys have an unrefined friction that's almost like sticking. Just IMO.


hey otter, hold that for me. You're probably right that i wont like it, its more just curiosity.
i'll google the p2 once i get out of the library this afternoon and i'll pm you. Your description of it doesnt make it sound enticing, lol. Could it be its one of the suckier keytronics? The lifetime series is the one with most consistently good reviews. (or is the p2 the same as that?).
thanks man.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline kriminal

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« Reply #19 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 12:33:33 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171614
hey otter, hold that for me. You're probably right that i wont like it, its more just curiosity.
i'll google the p2 once i get out of the library this afternoon and i'll pm you. Your description of it doesnt make it sound enticing, lol. Could it be its one of the suckier keytronics? The lifetime series is the one with most consistently good reviews. (or is the p2 the same as that?).
thanks man.


wellington the dome specialist? O.o
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #20 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 12:34:45 »
Just Dome

IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #21 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 13:15:06 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171614
hey otter, hold that for me. You're probably right that i wont like it, its more just curiosity.
i'll google the p2 once i get out of the library this afternoon and i'll pm you. Your description of it doesnt make it sound enticing, lol. Could it be its one of the suckier keytronics? The lifetime series is the one with most consistently good reviews. (or is the p2 the same as that?).
thanks man.

It's actually the most expensive Lifetime, the "Designer" http://www.keytronic.com/home/products/specs/ltdesigner.htm

Strange thing, though. It's rated at 20 million keystrokes whereas their other ones, the cheaper, non-Lifetime models, are rated at 30 million. I guess those are expected to last longer than a lifetime. The E03600 P2 (or U2, which is USB) in particular, is less than half the MSRP and rated at 30 mil, and yet everywhere I look, it sells for more than the $60 MSRP Designer. The 30mil rating at least suggests different domes, I think. Or something. I have a feeling maybe I'm not getting the full Keytronic experience with this "Designer".

I briefly used a different model keytronic a while back that wasn't working right, and it wasn't the Designer. I recall it being better, more solid, heavier, but I didn't use it for more than a few minutes before returning it since some keys didn't work, and it was before I really got into trying different keyboards so I didn't approach it with the same awareness I would now and I can't remember which model it was.

All the models listed here.http://www.keytronic.com/Home/shop/shop.asp?h_ck=TM453Z

Imma gonna email them folks now and ask whats up.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2010, 13:27:25 by Otterclock »
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #22 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 13:27:03 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171623
It's actually the most expensive Lifetime, the "Designer" http://www.keytronic.com/home/products/specs/ltdesigner.htm

Strange thing, though. It's rated at 20 million keystrokes whereas their other ones, the cheaper, non-Lifetime models, are rated at 30 million. I guess those are expected to last longer than a lifetime. The E03600 P2 in particular, is less than half the MSRP and rated at 30 mil, and yet everywhere I look, it sells for more than the $60 MSRP Designer. The 30mil rating at least suggests different domes, I think. Or something. I have a feeling maybe I'm not getting the full Keytronic experience with this "Designer".

I briefly used a different model keytronic a while back that wasn't working right, and it wasn't the Designer. I recall it being better, more solid, heavier, but I didn't use it for more than a few minutes before returning it since some keys didn't work, and it was before I really got into trying different keyboards so I didn't approach it with the same awareness I would now and I can't remember which model it was.

All the models listed here.http://www.keytronic.com/Home/shop/shop.asp?h_ck=TM453Z

Imma gonna email them folks now and ask whats up.


Gotcha, and thanks for the deets. Sounds like they might have different domes then. The eo3600 was the one i was looking at on ebay. Maybe i'll just pick up one of those then. Thanks for the offer though.

The eo3600 isnt terribly expensive, even new ones are only about $25 shipped.  The only reason i'm hesitating (despite the curiosity) is because in the end I actually dont think i'd like it, so its really just $25 for a pure experiment. I'll prolly pull the trigger one day when i'm bored though. ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #23 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 13:30:17 »
Quote from: didjamatic;171617
Just Dome

Show Image


saved for future avatar. thanks ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #24 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 13:31:27 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171625
Gotcha, and thanks for the deets. Sounds like they might have different domes then. The eo3600 was the one i was looking at on ebay. Maybe i'll just pick up one of those then. Thanks for the offer though.

The eo3600 isnt terribly expensive, even new ones are only about $25 shipped.  The only reason i'm hesitating (despite the curiosity) is because in the end I actually dont think i'd like it, so its really just $25 for a pure experiment. I'll prolly pull the trigger one day when i'm bored though. ;)

I got the Designer for like $15 shipped. Yeah, I would recommend trying the 3600 if any. If you do, do a review, or at least make a video typing on it, heh. I googled and found it for $10, but didn't check the shipping price.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #25 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 16:02:05 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171628
If you do, do a review, or at least make a video typing on it


mos def, as the kids say.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 17:56:25 »
Keytronic just responded saying that both boards use the same domes, and that the Designer is rated at 30mil. Pretty sure the site says 20mil but whatevs.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #27 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:02:49 »
I'm very confused. Variance between different types of mechanical switch is something I can believe, but when Keytronic says that their rubber domes last twice as long as Cherry's... what exactly is the difference that causes this magical longevity? Gold plating? Holy water?

Offline HaaTa

  • Master Kiibohd Hunter
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« Reply #28 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:10:05 »
Quality of gremlins.
Kiibohd

ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #29 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:08:09 »
Quote from: ch_123;171674
I'm very confused. Variance between different types of mechanical switch is something I can believe, but when Keytronic says that their rubber domes last twice as long as Cherry's... what exactly is the difference that causes this magical longevity? Gold plating? Holy water?


The same way better quality tires are rated at more miles. Better material, design, etc. I'm guessing. I could be wrong but I think there is more than one kind of material that can be used for the domes (the topre domes seem more dense). There's certainly near infinite shape.

Also they could just be lying.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:14:41 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171672
Keytronic just responded saying that both boards use the same domes, and that the Designer is rated at 30mil. Pretty sure the site says 20mil but whatevs.


out of curiosity, what are topres rated at? They're basically domes right?

also according to most reviewers on amazon and newegg, not all keytronics boards are the same (in feel or noise level or etc).  Maybe you got someone at the helpdesk who just attached a form response?

Maybe what I should look for is an original das (rebranded keytronic) instead. We know that one 'clicks' (bottoms out with a click) even tho its a membrane.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:26:22 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171691
out of curiosity, what are topres rated at? They're basically domes right?


Oh Welly, don't you remember the Vestal virigns? The Capacitive contacts? The springs?

And 30 million is what they say.

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:08:00 »
Quote
also according to most reviewers on amazon and newegg, not all keytronics boards are the same (in feel or noise level or etc). Maybe you got someone at the helpdesk who just attached a form response?


Yeah that could very well be. I've read those reviews, too, and yeah I think this woman maybe didn't know what she was sayin. LOL womens. what do they know about anything. I mean, it says 20 mil right there on the website AND on the box, I just checked. It even shows some dude's hand holding a digital counter and it reads 20,000,000!!! If that isn't proof I don't know what is. Dude's hand must be tired.

You can't see it in this photo, but it definitely reads 20,000,000. (googled the image, my digital cam is busted)
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 23:04:41 »
Quote from: ch_123;171696
Oh Welly, don't you remember the Vestal virigns? The Capacitive contacts? The springs?

And 30 million is what they say.


;-)  well i only humped it once. I suppose I should have humped it 30 million times to see who would wear out first ;)

Btw, these topre specs posted on youtube says "10 million before the membrane dies". Which is interesting, topre sounds like they're fudging a bit too (if the membrane dies at 10 million, the switches continuing on for another 20 million doesnt do anyone much good).

Quote

Key Life Expectancy
30 million keystrokes or more
※The durability of the membrane system is about 10 million strokes.


which brings up another point about topre -- either  its great for a membrane (10 million!) -- or lousy for $300 ;)

On the other hand, i guess that means membranes can be manufactured today that last at least 10 million.  (And as I like to remind people, thats like half a century of use for most mortals, even if you're a novelist. So these high quality membranes should last thru the entirety of whole careers).

Cant say anything about cheaper membranes, but the technology clearly exists.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2010, 23:12:38 by wellington1869 »

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 23:09:51 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171709
It even shows some dude's hand holding a digital counter and it reads 20,000,000!!! If that isn't proof I don't know what is.


lol! clearly they hired some migrant worker to actually count the keystrokes, so they obviously did measure it. yea, i think you probably got some form response. ;)  You should have asked her about the migrant worker with the counter!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 01:09:18 »
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which brings up another point about topre -- either its great for a membrane (10 million!) -- or lousy for $300 ;)

Well to their credit, the topre boards aren't membrane. The membrane part refers to the two thin sheets of plastic with super thin circuitry embedded that the dome collapses onto, when one presses into the other it actuates (pretty sure, at least). In the topre, I think that's where the whole capacitive thing comes into play. And the rubber/silicone or whatever material for the domes looks beefier in the topre. In most boards it's this white, translucent stuff, but the topre uses opaque grey stuff. Evidence, in the least, that the dome technology itself is not the villain, but rather the fact that most manufacturers use cheap rubber with simple shapes.

In some more expensive boards, such as the Logitech S510 (possibly the DiNovo and other higher end Logitechs, but I've never seen the inside), the rubber dome is barely even a dome, but a rubber pin shaped nipple atop a half dome. The pin collapses at a certain point, causes a rubber "click". Thought can be put into the engineering of the shape to enhance tactility. The topre domes are made to also collapse at an accelerated rate at a certain point in compression.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 01:21:33 by Otterclock »
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Offline Nonmouse

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 01:11:36 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171754
Well to their credit, the topre boards aren't membrane. The membrane part refers to the two thin sheets of plastic with super thin circuitry embedded, two sheets, when one presses into the other it actuates. In the topre, I think that's where the whole capacitive thing comes into play.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm....

Two membranes, it actuates when one is pressed into the other... this is different how?

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #37 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 01:25:38 »
Quote from: Nonmouse;171755
Ummmmmmmmmmmm....

Two membranes, it actuates when one is pressed into the other... this is different how?

I dunno. I thought the topre used sorcery or something. It doesn't have the membranes, does it? Maybe I just typed a giant post of fail. This is what I get for pretending to know things.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 01:38:55 by Otterclock »
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #38 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 02:16:26 »
In those specs the "membrane" they are referring to is the sheet of rubber domes. An unfortunate choice of word, as it normally refers to (A) the 3-layer membrane swtch or (B) a single flexible sheet that carries the tracks that carry signals to/from the switch. May be a translation error.

Topres don't have either of those features. A solid circuit board carries the tracks, and the switching is done by metal springs forming a capacitive circuit when compressed.
Quote from: ch_123;171674
Keytronic says that their rubber domes last twice as long as Cherry's... what exactly is the difference that causes this magical longevity? Gold plating? Holy water?

It's the special ribbed surface. For long-lasting pleasure.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 02:21:10 by Rajagra »

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 03:30:58 »
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this is different how?

Quote
Topres don't have either of those features. A solid circuit board carries the tracks, and the switching is done by metal springs forming a capacitive circuit when compressed.

I guess that's how. Ahh, so the springs are more than resistance. Neat. I thought they could be removed and the board would still function (I think I misread Ripster's post about modding it). I enjoy learnin stuff.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #40 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 04:10:11 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171746
Btw, these topre specs posted on youtube says "10 million before the membrane dies". Which is interesting, topre sounds like they're fudging a bit too (if the membrane dies at 10 million, the switches continuing on for another 20 million doesnt do anyone much good).



which brings up another point about topre -- either  its great for a membrane (10 million!) -- or lousy for $300 ;)

On the other hand, i guess that means membranes can be manufactured today that last at least 10 million.  (And as I like to remind people, thats like half a century of use for most mortals, even if you're a novelist. So these high quality membranes should last thru the entirety of whole careers).

Cant say anything about cheaper membranes, but the technology clearly exists.

Eh, since when did Topres have membranes?

Nevermind, was dealt with above.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:08:54 »
Quote from: ripster;171824
Ever have a remote control that you have to JAB, JAB, JAB to get to register?


But hey man, maybe some people want that!

*digs foxhole*

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:13:49 »
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In those specs the "membrane" they are referring to is the sheet of rubber domes.


what raj said - i was referring to the domes myself -

Quote from: Otterclock;171754
Well to their credit, the topre boards aren't membrane. The membrane part refers to the two thin sheets of plastic with super thin circuitry embedded that the dome collapses onto, when one presses into the other it actuates (pretty sure, at least). .


true, but I meant the rubber dome part that makes contact with the switch and collapses -- isnt that the part that wears out first? From having the most contact with the switch, and the constant flexing? In that topre blurb they imply the dome fails first. But the technology does exist to at least make the rubber domes last 10 million strokes.

that was kind of my point -- in both topres, and keytronics, and other "dome boards", there is a collapsing dome (of various quality and longevity). It appears that in topres this dome lasts 10 million strokes; and keytronics claims it'll last 30 million?  Of course keytronics could be lying, but the technology is out there for domes lasting at least 10 million.

Which again brings up the point - either its great for a dome (and lasts a half century) - or its lousy for $300 ;)

Or maybe keytronics is fudging like topre, and some part of the switch lasts 30 million while another part fails after 10 million.

Anyway, the point is that its apparently technically possible for a dome to last 10 million at the very least.  Someone would have to open up a keytronic to see the quality of the domes there.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:20:51 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #43 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:22:56 »
The underlying technology in a Topre is too different to that in a regular rubber dome keyboard to make that sort of comparison. You might as well be saying that Model Ms used membranes, rubber dome keyboards use membranes, Model Ms can last for 25+ million presses therefore so can rubber domes... The dome in a Topre doesn't do the exact same thing as a standard rubber dome keyboard dome does, so it's an Apples/Oranges comparison.

Then again, we'd have to determine what exactly the failure in a rubber dome keyboard is. Experience says that it's the keyboard's failure to register, either due to the membrane ****ting itself, or the contact on the inside of the dome wearing out. In that case, the Topre isn't comparable as it does not do this. In fact, how exactly do you quantify the dome failing in a Topre? Is it when it becomes excessively mushy or stops reseting itself to it's rest position when the key is released? In most rubber dome keyboard I've seen, the electronics break down long before that sort of thing happens.

I'm also reluctant to accept a Youtube video as an official specification.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:30:04 by ch_123 »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #44 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:28:36 »
Quote from: ch_123;171842

I'm also reluctant to accept a Youtube video as an official specification.


i'd like something more official too, but the info there does appear to be 'cut and pasted' in from somewhere. Maybe someone can find a source on that, where it says the topre dome only lasts 10 million, we could put the info into the Topre Wiki.

I agree that we cant compare domes directly across boards, and that other parts of the switch construction play into the longevity. But then we also dont have enough info about keytronics switch construction to say they dont last 10, 20, or 30 million. (I mean, that migrant worker is fairly certain it lasts 20 million, but who is he?)  So I guess if I wind up buying one, after I review it I'll crack it open, and we can speculate some more.

(And btw, as I keep saying, in my view 10 million for any board is plenty; I'm not one of these guys who insists my board has to last 100 years for it to be worth something... 45 years is plenty in my book)
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:31:31 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:35:30 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171845
I agree that we cant compare domes directly across boards, and that other parts of the switch construction play into the longevity. But then we also dont have enough info about keytronics switch construction to say they dont last 10, 20, or 30 million. (I mean, that migrant worker is fairly certain it lasts 20 million, but who is he?)  So I guess if I wind up buying one, after I review it I'll crack it open, and we can speculate some more.

It's not an issue of construction quality, Topres are just engineered completely differently to regular rubber dome keyboards. Capacitive keyboards tend to be far more reliable than electrically switched keyboards as there are no contacts to wear out, and no debouncing issues to screw things up. There's only so much that build quality can do to extend a certain design of switch. Rubber domes have their limitations, and I very much doubt that manufacturing them to a higher standard can suddenly impart a lifetime increase by a factor of 2 or 3 times... As I keep saying, Topres don't stack up because their whole modus operandi is different, and they have their own points of failure. You'd probably be better off comparing them with a Model F than a Keytronic or whatever...
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:39:55 by ch_123 »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #46 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:40:45 »
Either way, I'm not convinced that the tactile element in a Topre switch is going to magically explode 1/3 of the way through the useful life of the keyboard.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #47 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:47:57 »
Quote from: ch_123;171850
Either way, I'm not convinced that the tactile element in a Topre switch is going to magically explode 1/3 of the way through the useful life of the keyboard.


hey i'm just quoting what appear to be specs, and I'd welcome additional official information if anyone has it...

but how long topres last is kind of a side discussion here... I think the speculation began here regarding keytronics claim of 20 to 30 million for domes (which they do warranty anyway, regardless of whether they actually last that long). I dont know if keytronics can literally last that long, but i'm saying it wouldnt surprise me if they did last at least 10 million, first of all. Second, to me thats a pretty long lasting board since I estimate that to mean decades of use, and most people are more likely to spill coke on it, or simply get bored of it, well before it actually physically wears through.

So on the one hand is the discussion about technically when does it wear out. Seems we dont have enough specific info, either about the chemistry of modern-day rubber compounds, or even the internal construction of the keytronics switch.  But probably a case can be made that higher end dome boards today can plausibly last 10 million at least.

On the other hand is an implied discussion about 'how long is enough anyway?'.  The latter question of course is subjective, but a case could be made that 10 million = 40 years or more = long enough for vast majority of people, overkill even.

And even if it did wear out - the third option - technically its under warranty anyway and you can pursue that channel if you choose, too.

In other words, longevity with keytronics (and by extension perhaps to most higher end dome boards), should be, for most folks, probably a non issue.  Especially if its warrantied for 30 mill anyway. You dont have to believe the specs literally.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:52:06 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #48 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:57:23 »
I think one thing thats interesting here is the possibility that topres actually functionally only last 10 mill.  Again I hasten to add that in my view 10 mill is plenty. But if thats the case, thats info that is probably worth inserting into the topre wiki, for reference, where we have saved all other aspects of specs for these keyboards.

How to find more official info? I'll get some time next week to do a more thorough google search, but problem is this info is just as likely to be in japanese or korean or whatever.  I have no east asian language skills whatsoever. Ideally a bilingual person should probably do the google-fu here.  Given how much we all love and are intrigued by topres and topre specs, this is something worth clarifying probably, at least as far as 'official specs' go.

And like I said, if 45 years or so of usage (10 mill strokes) isnt enough for someone, they're free to buy two of them and keep one in storage :)

(I keep saying 45 years of use - thats based on the thread i linked to above. We did various estimations and etc, most of which i've forgotten, but the nub of that thread was that most of these boards last long enough for most reasonable people.  For me, even 10 years of usage would be plenty. I'd even find 5 years to be worthwhile. Clearly i'm not someone who is fettishizing longevity, since as I say, i'm more likely to spill food on it, or just move on from boredom). But yea, I'd consider a 10 year board to be a high quality board, too.)
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 12:02:55 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #49 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:58:00 »
Speaking of cheaping-down materials, why do the premium boards like Filco et al use plastic housings? If these boards represent the refusal to conform to the cost cutting of mass market boards, why aren't they using metal for their entire line? Why aren't they using double-shots? Their customers are people willing to pay a premium for a item that is superior in every regard, and while I understand that they need to draw lines somewhere to keep from being outrageously expensive, why cut a huge corner such as quality of keys?

Also are there any new boards that use cherry white/clears other than the Deck (which uses them I think)? I'm still in my learning process concerning what I like, and oddly I think I like the firmness of the cherry blacks, but they're just a bit too firm. And why are there so many songs about rainbows?
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