Post by: swill on Sun, 02 November 2014, 22:27:48
Documentation is available at: builder-docs.swillkb.com (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com)
The open source KAD engine: github.com/swill/kad (https://github.com/swill/kad)
This project enables you to build keyboard plates and cases using the JSON produced by the www.keyboard-layout-editor.com (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/).
Review the documentation site above for a guided tour of how the tool works and how to use it.
If you have any questions or feedback, please post them in this thread and we will get you sorted out. :) Enjoy...
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 03 November 2014, 08:47:17
1.00u = 0.7500in || 19.0500mm
1.25u = 0.9375in || 23.8125mm
1.50u = 1.1250in || 28.5750mm
1.75u = 1.3125in || 33.3375mm
2.00u = 1.5000in || 38.1000mm
etc.
If you just imagine the square 0.551in || 14mm cutout is your base, layout your keyboard plate with that, the additional cutouts are just extra room for the switch clips. They shouldn't affect the actual layout anywhere you don't plan to cut screw holes or etc.
Make heavy use of offset and reference lines, you'll be good to go.
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 10:56:57
This is an idea I have had for quite a while but have not had time to work on. I am now officially into my new house, so I am officially getting this project underway...
THE IDEA: There are many builders in this community who would like to experiment with different keyboard layouts, but not all of them have the CAD skills to be able to create the plate. The goal of this project is to enable anyone which an idea to be able to build a layout and then have the plate automatically built for them (download the CAD drawing). Since Melvang and team have done such a great job getting the Enabler PCB into the wild, this type of tool should be a great progression to enable very cool layouts.
HOW IT WORKS: I plan to piggyback of the excellent work of ijprest (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=30503) and his www.keyboard-layout-editor.com (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/). As a user, you would go and create a layout using that tool, then you would paste the permalink to your layout in my web based tool. You would be able to specify some details and then click on a 'Generate', which would generate and download the CAD drawing for the plate needed for the layout you have specified.
SETTINGS: These have not been ironed out yet, but here are some things I am considering.
- Select the switch cutout type you would like.
- (Optional) Select the case layout you want the plate to fit in. This would determine if/where the mounting holes are located.
- (Optional) If a case layout is not specified, how much space do you want on the outside of the plate? Do you want drill holes (for a sandwich case)? Etc...
Here are the currently supported switch cutouts:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/simple.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/complex.png)
TOOLS BEING USED: I have chosen to script this using Python and CadQuery (which is based on FreeCAD). I am a very proficient Python developer, so that was my main criteria when looking for parametric CAD scripting frameworks. If I am learning CAD from scratch, I might as well do it in an environment I am very comfortable in.
LICENSE: I will be making the service available online and I will also publish my code on GitHub (once I have a working version). I will probably put some sort of open source license on it, but I will cross that bridge when I publish the code. My intention is to make my work freely available with the hope that others will consider offering pull requests to add functionality or help with compatibility.
ETA: I am not entirely sure when you can expect this to be ready yet. I am still very early in development right now. I have the basic construct for placing the different sized keys where I want them now, but I have not automated the actual layout build yet or done any exporting yet. I have built 3 different switch opening types so far (at least one more to come) and I will be updating this thread with the details on those openings soon (probably tonight).
HOW CAN YOU HELP? Subscribe and leave me any feedback you feel is relevant. I am still wet behind the ears in the field of CAD and laser cutting and such, so any suggestions you have are VERY welcome.
ENDGAME: I am a LONG WAY off this, but I am going to throw this out there as the endgame of where I want this tool to get to. In addition to just creating the plate layout, I would also like to be able to add the ability to 'suggest a matrix' for hand wiring. This would basically show a beginner how they would need to solder together their switches and diodes to have a working matrix. Ideally, since I will have the perferred key mapping passed in from keyboard-layout-editor, I would also like to try to automatically generate the HEX file for the layout they have specified according the the matrix I have generated. I know, I am a dreamer, but I HAVE A DREAM (and I think I have the skills to be able to pull it off)...
Thanks for reading this Wall Of Text and please feel free to contribute any ideas or encouragement. :P
Initial discussion started from here...
Added the only picture with measurements that i could find in this thead to mm. (wth, SAE? are you guys fro real? :)
anyone can help me with the mount that only has the extra 4 spaces (2x2)? i think that is the best one.... can't find the exact measurements for that one.
I have been looking for this in mm. Is this pretty accurate?
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47744.0;attach=73725;image)
I also read previously that two 1x1 switches are 19.05mm from left side to left side of the adjacent switch, but that was the style with built switch openings on the whole side (and the measurement was from the outside of the wing opening). It should not matter because it was the same on both switches (I think). So that would mean that the switches are 19.05 - 13.97 = 5.09mm apart?
Also, I am looking for the standard plate sizes (outside dimensions) in mm for the poker and tkl plates.
The switch holes are measured typically center to center, 19.05mm or .75in between each center. Key units translate pretty nicely too:
1.00u = 0.7500in || 19.0500mm
1.25u = 0.9375in || 23.8125mm
1.50u = 1.1250in || 28.5750mm
1.75u = 1.3125in || 33.3375mm
2.00u = 1.5000in || 38.1000mm
etc.
If you just imagine the square 0.551in || 14mm cutout is your base, layout your keyboard plate with that, the additional cutouts are just extra room for the switch clips. They shouldn't affect the actual layout anywhere you don't plan to cut screw holes or etc.
Make heavy use of offset and reference lines, you'll be good to go.
Great, thanks... I am scripting everything because I am working on a tool to automate plate creation. It is super basic, but I have been able to draw the switch cutout and place them 19.05mm apart (center to center).
Thank you very much for the values there, that is exactly what I needed. I really appreciate it.
Here is what I have so far (getting the pieces together to be able to automate). Making progress, but it has been pretty slow at first as I learn this API.
[attachimg=1]
Edit: Once I finish this tool I will make it available via a web UI for people to use. I will also open source the code. I just want to get the basic implementation in place before doing that so if there are suggestions and such I can more easily integrate them.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 03 November 2014, 11:22:45
You should get with ne0phyte. He added some type of automated script to his layout generator to create plate drawings. His tool is at ne0.cc/laygenV2
Actually, the switch hole I recommend is a 12.8x15.6mm rectangle centered in the 14mm square. That hole will work for both MX (with easy open tabs) and Alps.
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 03 November 2014, 14:29:37
Though now that you bring it up, would be neat to do it in a web UI instead.. Maybe this weekend I'll draw up some FRD's, my idea's pretty limited in usefulness to people who have access to a very expensive CAD application.
Post by: FrostyToast on Mon, 03 November 2014, 14:39:57
This is also an amazing idea and as someone with zero experience with engineering and CAD, I can approve of this!
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 16:18:28
Sounds awesome. I wouldn't use those switch hole shapes, though. Unless you have randomly 90-degree rotated switches, you don't need the cutouts on the top and bottom. And it makes the switches less stable in the plate.
You should get with ne0phyte. He added some type of automated script to his layout generator to create plate drawings. His tool is at ne0.cc/laygenV2
Actually, the switch hole I recommend is a 12.8x15.6mm rectangle centered in the 14mm square. That hole will work for both MX (with easy open tabs) and Alps.
Excellent. I was not sure what the best switch cutout was, so I used that one because it seemed to offer the most 'features'. I will make it possible to select which type of switch cutout people want to use. I will make your suggestion the default.
It would be very interesting to see how ne0phyte's service works. Very cool. Do you know what type of code you have to paste in to see what the plate would look like?
My plan is actually to piggyback off the wonderful work put into 'http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/'. Basically, a user would create their layout on that site and then paste the permalink to their layout into my UI and have a few additional options they could change (like switch type for example). Then they would be able to 'generate' and it would create a downloadable cad file for them as well as a png for them to verify that it looks correct visually.
Does anyone know who created keyboard-layout-editor.com? I am almost positive I saw the person active on GH, but I can't remember where. I would love to get in touch with them...
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 16:21:25
Sounds neat. I have been working on a Poker-type 60% DWG file with interchangeable blocks so you could easily swap out an ANSI enter for an ISO, or swap out your shifts and backspace for the split variety, or even swap all the cutouts for the switch opening type, just by using the replace block command in AutoCAD.
Though now that you bring it up, would be neat to do it in a web UI instead.. Maybe this weekend I'll draw up some FRD's, my idea's pretty limited in usefulness to people who have access to a very expensive CAD application.
Cool. Yes, I am using FreeCAD as my engine and I am using CadQuery as my scripting tool for creating the actual automation. I basically chose it because it was in Python and I am already a proficient Python developer. If I am going to be learning CAD from scratch, I might as well do it in an environment I am comfortable with already. :P
If anyone has suggestions of things I should look into for scripting CAD in Python, I am all ears...
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 16:26:29
Swill, just so people could have their preferences, could you have have the program let us choose which cutouts we want?
This is also an amazing idea and as someone with zero experience with engineering and CAD, I can approve of this!
Yes, so far my plans for options are:
- Select the switch opening you want.
- Select the plate size (with mount holes) you want. This is for case compatibility. If the layout you provide does not fit on the plate size you specified it would have to error and show you why (somehow).
- If you do not specify a case size, it will automatically create the plate according the the size it thinks it should be based on your layout. I may make it possible for you to configure the amount of space you want on the size and top if you want to do a sandwich case. Not sure how I would do mounting holes in that case though. But you would have the cad, so you could add your own mounting holes if you wanted.
Some of the edge cases will probably not be clean until later. Initially I think I will just have to count on people to not be stupid and it will only work if you enter layouts that are sane. We will see how clever I can get...
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 18:33:28
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 03 November 2014, 18:58:44
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 19:05:58
The switch holes are measured typically center to center, 19.05mm or .75in between each center. Key units translate pretty nicely too:
1.00u = 0.7500in || 19.0500mm
1.25u = 0.9375in || 23.8125mm
1.50u = 1.1250in || 28.5750mm
1.75u = 1.3125in || 33.3375mm
2.00u = 1.5000in || 38.1000mm
etc.
If you just imagine the square 0.551in || 14mm cutout is your base, layout your keyboard plate with that, the additional cutouts are just extra room for the switch clips. They shouldn't affect the actual layout anywhere you don't plan to cut screw holes or etc.
Make heavy use of offset and reference lines, you'll be good to go.
I just implemented my script using these measurements and I realize that something does not make sense with these numbers. The distance between the centers for a 2u should not be double that of two 1u switches. If that is the case, then the 2u switch actually takes up 3u of space because it has a full 1u on each side of the switch.
Here is an image to illustrate what these numbers work out to:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/switch_eg.png)
I think the numbers you have there is actually the 'space the key takes up with the key spacing accounted for', rather than distance between centers. For 1u keys, yes, it is the distance between centers, but for the larger keys I think you have to split the distance to some extent. I will play with this more tonight to figure out the actual algorithm to get these to line up correctly.
Thanks for the feedback though, you got me way ahead of where I was... :)
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 03 November 2014, 19:24:55
Post by: Matias on Mon, 03 November 2014, 19:28:16
random question. is the space between rows the same 19.05mm as between u1 switches? thx...
19mm is also common.
Older stuff is 19.05mm because 0.75" = 19.05mm.
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 19:34:37
Ah yeah, I was thinking with brain instead of lines. I use centers to start off in upper left, then the unit constant becomes width spacing with the keyswitch cutout centered within.OK cool i will figure out how to use these numbers in my case. Thanks for the quick reply. I am slowly getting more comfortable with all this now.
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 03 November 2014, 19:59:16
Ah yeah, I was thinking with brain instead of lines. I use centers to start off in upper left, then the unit constant becomes width spacing with the keyswitch cutout centered within.OK cool i will figure out how to use these numbers in my case. Thanks for the quick reply. I am slowly getting more comfortable with all this now.
You're probably better off assigning a constant as 1u, then multiplying it by the keywidth (1.5, 1.75, etc) than to do some funky lookups with the numbers in any table. The only numbers you really need to know are 1 unit, and the values available in Cherry's spec sheet for in or mm
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 November 2014, 20:41:03
Is it exactly multiples? I did not cross reference to verify. I did see 2u was, but I did not verify the fraction ones.Ah yeah, I was thinking with brain instead of lines. I use centers to start off in upper left, then the unit constant becomes width spacing with the keyswitch cutout centered within.OK cool i will figure out how to use these numbers in my case. Thanks for the quick reply. I am slowly getting more comfortable with all this now.
You're probably better off assigning a constant as 1u, then multiplying it by the keywidth (1.5, 1.75, etc) than to do some funky lookups with the numbers in any table. The only numbers you really need to know are 1 unit, and the values available in Cherry's spec sheet for in or mm
I am doing my calculations based on switch centers for all the switches. I currently have sizes such as u100, u125, u150, etc. I prefer doing multiples if the numbers work out correctly. I will cross reference and simplify my code accordingly. Thx.
I have not sat down to verify this yet, but I think the centers will work out to be something like this (assuming we are moving along a row).
current_loc = .5*u1*prev_sw_mult + .5*u1*curr_sw_mult
This should account for switches of different sizes next to each other.
I will do a bunch of tests to verify this concept when I am back in front of my putter.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 00:12:47
Here is an image of the new dims I have come up with:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/dims.png)
Note: the hard to read dimensions in the top right are: 0.8mm and 1.0mm
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 06:20:32
Edit:
In my recent drawing I am working with a tolerance of about +/- .1mm. Now that I think of it, I think that is probably too small to be expected.
In looking at the numbers that jdcarpe sent over (mainly based on the 12.8 number), he is leaving a LOT bigger tolerance for clearing the switch flaps on the sides. I may have to abandon the idea of trying to make the rotatable switch cutout more stable since I don't think I can count on the tolerances to the level of precision I have calculated. Anyone know what is a realistic expectation here for a tolerance while machining?
Edit2:
I just realized that the 12.8 value is actually for Alps compatibility, not just leaving lots of space for MX tolerance.
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 04 November 2014, 09:24:15
Secondly, please don't take this wrong, can you make a new thread for your project as I think ti would get more visibility as well as keep this thread clean and on topic.
Third here are my thoughts on points raised thus far:
1. Tolerance for acrylic laser cutting is about 0.2 on either side of the line, so suppose you were to cut a square with 14mm sides, now this would produce a square cutout of 14.2mm sides and a small square piece of 13.8mm. Yes it burns a lot of acrylic :)). Don't know about alu/stell, the other two most commonly used materials.
2. 19.05 = 1u and the space a one unit key takes, and similarly 2u, is the key a two unit key takes. So the distance from center to center would be 0.5*(current_key + adjacent_key)u. Your formula looks good.
3. ijprest (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=30503) created the layout editor. And I think it's a great idea to work using his current work. No need to re-invent the wheel. Perhaps you guys can work together and he can integrate your work or link to it directly from his editor.
4. I like the idea of the sandwich case (Well, I'm gonna be useless then :P), for the switch holes, I'd recommend the user input extra space they want around the four sides and number of screw holes on each side, they system will then automagically add a screw hole in each corner and then space out the other screw holes. For the middle layers, a cutout 1mm bigger on each side than the rectangle formed from the top left corner of the 19.05mm square of the top left-most key and bottom-right corner of the 19.05mm square of the right-bottom most key should suffice (Eg assumes 1u keys on the two mentioned position).
5. It's exact multiples, 1u, 1.25u, 1.5u, etc.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 10:38:56
First off, Swill, this is a great idea and somethign I wanted to do myself before life caught on.
Secondly, please don't take this wrong, can you make a new thread for your project as I think ti would get more visibility as well as keep this thread clean and on topic.
Third here are my thoughts on points raised thus far:
1. Tolerance for acrylic laser cutting is about 0.2 on either side of the line, so suppose you were to cut a square with 14mm sides, now this would produce a square cutout of 14.2mm sides and a small square piece of 13.8mm. Yes it burns a lot of acrylic :)). Don't know about alu/stell, the other two most commonly used materials.
2. 19.05 = 1u and the space a one unit key takes, and similarly 2u, is the key a two unit key takes. So the distance from center to center would be 0.5*(current_key + adjacent_key)u. Your formula looks good.
3. ijprest (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=30503) created the layout editor. And I think it's a great idea to work using his current work. No need to re-invent the wheel. Perhaps you guys can work together and he can integrate your work or link to it directly from his editor.
4. I like the idea of the sandwich case (Well, I'm gonna be useless then :P), for the switch holes, I'd recommend the user input extra space they want around the four sides and number of screw holes on each side, they system will then automagically add a screw hole in each corner and then space out the other screw holes. For the middle layers, a cutout 1mm bigger on each side than the rectangle formed from the top left corner of the 19.05mm square of the top left-most key and bottom-right corner of the 19.05mm square of the right-bottom most key should suffice (Eg assumes 1u keys on the two mentioned position).
5. It's exact multiples, 1u, 1.25u, 1.5u, etc.
Great, thanks for all the info, this is really helpful. :)
I didn't really think I would have so many questions initially, now I realize I have dominated this thread a bit too much. I will create a new thread for this project and stop polluting this thread. Good suggestion... :P
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:19:57
THE IDEA: There are many builders in this community who would like to experiment with different keyboard layouts, but not all of them have the CAD skills to be able to create the plate. The goal of this project is to enable anyone which an idea to be able to build a layout and then have the plate automatically built for them (download the CAD drawing). Since Melvang and team have done such a great job getting the Enabler PCB into the wild, this type of tool should be a great progression to enable very cool layouts.
HOW IT WORKS: I plan to piggyback of the excellent work of ijprest (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=30503) and his www.keyboard-layout-editor.com (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/). As a user, you would go and create a layout using that tool, then you would paste the permalink to your layout in my web based tool. You would be able to specify some details and then click on a 'Generate', which would generate and download the CAD drawing for the plate needed for the layout you have specified.
SETTINGS: These have not been ironed out yet, but here are some things I am considering.
- Select the switch cutout type you would like.
- (Optional) Select the case layout you want the plate to fit in. This would determine if/where the mounting holes are located.
- (Optional) If a case layout is not specified, how much space do you want on the outside of the plate? Do you want drill holes (for a sandwich case)? Etc...
TOOLS BEING USED: I have chosen to script this using Python and CadQuery (which is based on FreeCAD). I am a very proficient Python developer, so that was my main criteria when looking for parametric CAD scripting frameworks. If I am learning CAD from scratch, I might as well do it in an environment I am very comfortable in.
LICENSE: I will be making the service available online and I will also publish my code on GitHub (once I have a working version). I will probably put some sort of open source license on it, but I will cross that bridge when I publish the code. My intention is to make my work freely available with the hope that others will consider offering pull requests to add functionality or help with compatibility.
ETA: I am not entirely sure when you can expect this to be ready yet. I am still very early in development right now. I have the basic construct for placing the different sized keys where I want them now, but I have not automated the actual layout build yet or done any exporting yet. I have built 3 different switch opening types so far (at least one more to come) and I will be updating this thread with the details on those openings soon (probably tonight).
HOW CAN YOU HELP? Subscribe and leave me any feedback you feel is relevant. I am still wet behind the ears in the field of CAD and laser cutting and such, so any suggestions you have are VERY welcome.
ENDGAME: I am a LONG WAY off this, but I am going to throw this out there as the endgame of where I want this tool to get to. In addition to just creating the plate layout, I would also like to be able to add the ability to 'suggest a matrix' for hand wiring. This would basically show a beginner how they would need to solder together their switches and diodes to have a working matrix. Ideally, since I will have the perferred key mapping passed in from keyboard-layout-editor, I would also like to try to automatically generate the HEX file for the layout they have specified according the the matrix I have generated. I know, I am a dreamer, but I HAVE A DREAM (and I think I have the skills to be able to pull it off)...
Thanks for reading this Wall Of Text and please feel free to contribute any ideas or encouragement. :P
Post by: exitfire401 on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:21:52
Post by: Signature on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:28:27
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:34:02
You might want to check with ne0phyte for some tips / info. Maybe it can save you some time.
as to advice: is Cadquery easily scriptable? I seem to recall in my search for a cad package to use that many of them are easily scriptable. I think that interfacing to this could be the easiest part or the hardest.
If you need measurements of the mounting hole locations, I can provide them for a lightsaver V1 and a skeldon. Maybe having a listing of the common custom (and standard) keyboards and their screw locations would help. I've already measured a poker 2 and case with a calipers if that'll help.
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:36:09
Oh, and can you ask a mod to move all the posts after post #170 to your thread, I think that would be best, as it would consolidate all the information on your project in one place. :D
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:43:57
I have some measurements for QFR, Leeku 1800, Pure which I can send to you if needed.
For some of the opensource work like the GHPad, QazPad, JD40, etc, you can get mounting hole information from the PCB files itself.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 12:09:11
No issues, happy to help.
Oh, and can you ask a mod to move all the posts after post #170 to your thread, I think that would be best, as it would consolidate all the information on your project in one place. :D
Oh, I didn't realize that was possible. I will check into that. Thx...
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 12:16:54
oh sweet, so it'll be like Ne0phyte's laygenv2 (http://ne0.cc/laygenV2/) and it's DXF export function but easier to use! I can't wait.
You might want to check with ne0phyte for some tips / info. Maybe it can save you some time.
as to advice: is Cadquery easily scriptable? I seem to recall in my search for a cad package to use that many of them are easily scriptable. I think that interfacing to this could be the easiest part or the hardest.
If you need measurements of the mounting hole locations, I can provide them for a lightsaver V1 and a skeldon. Maybe having a listing of the common custom (and standard) keyboards and their screw locations would help. I've already measured a poker 2 and case with a calipers if that'll help.
Yes, I think it is basically the same idea but easier to use. I have never used ne0phyte's tool because I do not know what I am supposed to enter to get a result and there are no instructions on the site. I will contact him though because I am sure he has some advice for me.
CadQuery is a Python API extension to the FreeCAD Python API. Basically, the only way to use CadQuery is via code. I load my code into the FreeCAD UI through the built in Python Console to verify my drawings while I develop. My only real requirement when picking a tool was that I could generate CAD drawings using Python. So far it is working pretty well. I am still a n00b, but I am figuring it out pretty well. Getting comfortable with it now...
Yes, I plan to have a list (with pictures) of the different case layouts that you can select from and that will dictate where the mount holes will be located. I will definitely be crowdsourcing the measurements for all of the different case mount points. What do you think is the best way to start collecting this information?
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 12:19:28
This is a really cool project as I've said before swill, good luck. I'll be happy to help in anyway I can.
I have some measurements for QFR, Leeku 1800, Pure which I can send to you if needed.
For some of the opensource work like the GHPad, QazPad, JD40, etc, you can get mounting hole information from the PCB files itself.
Ahh, yes. I remember that the GH60 PCB file has the measurements for the mount holes as well as the external plate dimensions (probably), so I will maybe start from that. I think that PCB supports the poker layout, so it is probably a good reference for 60% boards. Thx...
Post by: ideus on Tue, 04 November 2014, 12:37:37
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:12:23
Congratulations on your new house!
Thank you. :thumb:
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:33:27
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:41:24
Awesome idea!
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
I am scripting this, so everything will be based off dimensions which I dictate.
For example:
The space taken up by a single key is 19.05mm
1u = 19.05
1.25u = 19.05*1.25
1.50u = 19.05*1.50
... and so on ...
I am using the key unit sizes to determine where the switch cutouts should be placed.
This is what you are referring to right? Correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:44:47
oh sweet, so it'll be like Ne0phyte's laygenv2 (http://ne0.cc/laygenV2/) and it's DXF export function but easier to use! I can't wait.
You might want to check with ne0phyte for some tips / info. Maybe it can save you some time.
Yes, I think it is basically the same idea but easier to use. I have never used ne0phyte's tool because I do not know what I am supposed to enter to get a result and there are no instructions on the site. I will contact him though because I am sure he has some advice for me.
Yes, I plan to have a list (with pictures) of the different case layouts that you can select from and that will dictate where the mount holes will be located. I will definitely be crowdsourcing the measurements for all of the different case mount points. What do you think is the best way to start collecting this information?
All the details are on the DT topic:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/tiny-javascript-keyboard-layout-editor-t5110.html
I think for his it's easier to do stepped keycaps (and caps that are vertical and a different size on both bits). I spent about 45 minutes trying to get the keyboard-layout-editor working for a specific keycap on my displaywriter. Code is a little clunky for that.
Yes, I plan to have a list (with pictures) of the different case layouts that you can select from and that dictate where the mount holes will be located. I will definitely be crowdsourcing the measurements for all of the different case mount points. What do you think is the best way to start collecting this information?
Hmm, I think you could just make a post, and ask people to advertize it in their signature (as well as the online tool) and then for specific ones that are hard to get people to upload to you, search the forum for people that have them and then PM them or the KB Creator for more info.
Like I know who has the CAD drawings for the skeldon plate, so I can get the exact measurements from there.
I measured the poker2 myself with a vernier caliper, so some of my measurements might be up to 0.5mm off because it's sometimes hard to get things exact.
Sprit was kind enough to forward me the cad drawings for his 110% KB so I could purchase a sufficiently huge hunk of metal to bolt it to (I think this method is now call the swill case). You might ask him for what he's got (would be the same for the other winkeyless.kr boards.
---
I wonder if you could have a "key" for certain KBs, where you could make plates for a PCB, and the only options are what the PCB itself supports. Maybe some presets or something. This would make it easy for 1800 plates for lightsaver V2, or making custom phantom plates easily. Of course also have a "full custom" mode where you can design an arbitrary plate.
What about also having support for rotated keyswitches? Like I want to make plates for ergodox (thumb area) or some of jacobolus' ergo designs. Just a thought.
I hope I'm not throwing too much info and requests at you. I don't want you to get into feature creep or design hell. Please just pick what features make it into the initial release and then everything else can be added later.
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:01:37
Awesome idea!
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
I am scripting this, so everything will be based off dimensions which I dictate.
For example:
The space taken up by a single key is 19.05mm
1u = 19.05
1.25u = 19.05*1.25
1.50u = 19.05*1.50
... and so on ...
I am using the key unit sizes to determine where the switch cutouts should be placed.
This is what you are referring to right? Correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
Spacing between the keys that are next to each other will be set. I am referring to the width between blocks of keys - like between the main typing area compared to the arrows/6 pack, or between the main typing area and the function row.
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:04:02
You can't make the spacing that would be between the function row and number row on Ne0phyte's program to my knowledge.
Edit: Swill pretty much answered this in a reply to another person
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:08:20
Awesome idea!
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
I am scripting this, so everything will be based off dimensions which I dictate.
For example:
The space taken up by a single key is 19.05mm
1u = 19.05
1.25u = 19.05*1.25
1.50u = 19.05*1.50
... and so on ...
I am using the key unit sizes to determine where the switch cutouts should be placed.
This is what you are referring to right? Correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
Spacing between the keys that are next to each other will be set. I am referring to the width between blocks of keys - like between the main typing area compared to the arrows/6 pack, or between the main typing area and the function row.
Ahh, gotcha. Yes, I am planning to do the same thing that the keyboard-layout-editor does. He has basically defined that space as a fraction of a u1 key. It seems to work pretty well, so I was planning to do the same thing. So yes, I would be supporting putting blank space between keys. This would be automatic if your layout in the keyboard-layout-editor has them.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:13:48
So can we choose the x and y coordinates of the switch holes?
You can't make the spacing that would be between the function row and number row on Ne0phyte's program to my knowledge.
Edit: Swill pretty much answered this in a reply to another person
Yep. It works pretty much like this.
1u space between Esc and F1 would look like this in the raw data: ["Esc",{x:1},"F1"...
The space between Fn row and number keys would look like this: [{y:0.5},"~\n`"...
For the y axis stuff, you specify it at the start of the line and it works for the whole row.
I have not considered supporting the ergodox layout. I am a bit concerned with the amount of work that would be. We will see how easy it will be for me to support once I get the basic parser/builder in place.
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:24:18
So can we choose the x and y coordinates of the switch holes?
You can't make the spacing that would be between the function row and number row on Ne0phyte's program to my knowledge.
Edit: Swill pretty much answered this in a reply to another person
Yep. It works pretty much like this.
1u space between Esc and F1 would look like this in the raw data: ["Esc",{x:1},"F1"...
The space between Fn row and number keys would look like this: [{y:0.5},"~\n`"...
For the y axis stuff, you specify it at the start of the line and it works for the whole row.
I have not considered supporting the ergodox layout. I am a bit concerned with the amount of work that would be. We will see how easy it will be for me to support once I get the basic parser/builder in place.
If you do ever feel like it, would adding an option to define the rotation of a switch by degrees suffice as a way to do this?
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:42:46
What about also having support for rotated keyswitches? Like I want to make plates for ergodox (thumb area) or some of jacobolus' ergo designs. Just a thought..
If you do ever feel like it, would adding an option to define the rotation of a switch by degrees suffice as a way to do this?Yes, do you plan to support ergodox and other ergo designs with rotated switches? I see excellent arguments on both sides.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:47:46
oh sweet, so it'll be like Ne0phyte's laygenv2 (http://ne0.cc/laygenV2/) and it's DXF export function but easier to use! I can't wait.
You might want to check with ne0phyte for some tips / info. Maybe it can save you some time.
Yes, I think it is basically the same idea but easier to use. I have never used ne0phyte's tool because I do not know what I am supposed to enter to get a result and there are no instructions on the site. I will contact him though because I am sure he has some advice for me.
Yes, I plan to have a list (with pictures) of the different case layouts that you can select from and that will dictate where the mount holes will be located. I will definitely be crowdsourcing the measurements for all of the different case mount points. What do you think is the best way to start collecting this information?
All the details are on the DT topic:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/tiny-javascript-keyboard-layout-editor-t5110.html
I think for his it's easier to do stepped keycaps (and caps that are vertical and a different size on both bits). I spent about 45 minutes trying to get the keyboard-layout-editor working for a specific keycap on my displaywriter. Code is a little clunky for that.Yes, I plan to have a list (with pictures) of the different case layouts that you can select from and that dictate where the mount holes will be located. I will definitely be crowdsourcing the measurements for all of the different case mount points. What do you think is the best way to start collecting this information?
Hmm, I think you could just make a post, and ask people to advertize it in their signature (as well as the online tool) and then for specific ones that are hard to get people to upload to you, search the forum for people that have them and then PM them or the KB Creator for more info.
Like I know who has the CAD drawings for the skeldon plate, so I can get the exact measurements from there.
I measured the poker2 myself with a vernier caliper, so some of my measurements might be up to 0.5mm off because it's sometimes hard to get things exact.
Sprit was kind enough to forward me the cad drawings for his 110% KB so I could purchase a sufficiently huge hunk of metal to bolt it to (I think this method is now call the swill case). You might ask him for what he's got (would be the same for the other winkeyless.kr boards.
---
I wonder if you could have a "key" for certain KBs, where you could make plates for a PCB, and the only options are what the PCB itself supports. Maybe some presets or something. This would make it easy for 1800 plates for lightsaver V2, or making custom phantom plates easily. Of course also have a "full custom" mode where you can design an arbitrary plate.
What about also having support for rotated keyswitches? Like I want to make plates for ergodox (thumb area) or some of jacobolus' ergo designs. Just a thought.
I hope I'm not throwing too much info and requests at you. I don't want you to get into feature creep or design hell. Please just pick what features make it into the initial release and then everything else can be added later.
Thanks for the DT link. That is very helpful for understanding how that tool works. :)
I have not thought of stepped keys. I may have to look into that later. Thanks for getting that on my radar. The vertical keys should not be a problem. They are defined as the following in in Raw data: {h:2},"Enter"
I will try to put together as many layouts as I can find and then I will do a call out (when I am ready) for anyone who has dims to help me out getting me the details. I will start small and work my way from there...
Sprit sent me his 60% and 75% drawings so I could build minimal cases for those builds. Love the fact that the 'swill case' is catching on a bit. :) I love that case concept and I use it on all my custom boards right now. I have been seeing a lot of people take the idea and remix it and make it theirs and really come up with some cool stuff. Thats awesome...
Yes, doing presets is something I am considering as well. If nothing else it will be a good knowledge base of plate files. Like the 101 different layouts the GH60 can be configured in. :)
I have not thought of rotating on non-90-degree angles. I will have to put more thought into that one. It won't be in version 1, that I can tell you for sure. :)
Basically, I am going to automatically add stabilizer holes on keys that are 2u or greater. I will just put 2u stab holes on everything up to 4u, at which point I will start using different stab sizes like the SP spacing (i think). And then each of the space bar sizes will have their own stab cutout sizes. This will be automatically generated based on the size of the key. For vertical keys, I will put stab cutouts if the key is larger than 2u.
I will be offering 4 different switch opening types, one of which allows for MX switches to be rotated 90º. One of the switch openings will also support Alps switches (but will have MX stab holes for now).
I am going to be drawing the stab cutouts tonight. I am going to try to make it so you can put the stabilizer in either way. We will see if that is possible once I sit down with the Cherry specification sheet and start playing with it.
Keep throwing ideas my way. It is MUCH easier to build in features (or at least setup my code so I can support the features later) if I get the wishlist stuff now. These are really good things for me to be paying attention to.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:51:53
What about also having support for rotated keyswitches? Like I want to make plates for ergodox (thumb area) or some of jacobolus' ergo designs. Just a thought..If you do ever feel like it, would adding an option to define the rotation of a switch by degrees suffice as a way to do this?Yes, do you plan to support ergodox and other ergo designs with rotated switches? I see excellent arguments on both sides.
I had not thought of it, but it is a good idea.
The keyboard-layout-editor supports that functionality, so theoretically this could be added.
This is how the keyboard-layout-editor handles the first row of the ergodox thumb cluster.
[{r:30,rx:6.5,ry:4.25,y:-1,x:1},"",""],
Notice the 'r' value which I believe to be the rotation in degrees. I am not sure what the 'rx' and 'ry' options do yet, but that code is open source, so I can go poke around in the code to better understand the engine behind it.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 14:57:23
I have not thought of stepped keys. I may have to look into that later. Thanks for getting that on my radar. The vertical keys should not be a problem. They are defined as the following in in Raw data: {h:2},"Enter"This, I see is a problem. What if I have a KB like this that has a vertical key that's 2 different widths?(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/11317167275_b236c29741_o.jpg) They do exist also for cherry. I think the only issue here ('cause I don't care what the layout shows as long as it works) is making sure that the switch is in the right place underneath the ISO enter or whatever. IIRC for cherry they are in the middle between the rows.
I will try to put together as many layouts as I can find and then I will do a call out (when I am ready) for anyone who has dims to help me out getting me the details. I will start small and work my way from there...Probably one of my fav compact designs. plate mounted KB with a "swill case". I used to resent it because it was invented before you were a member here but you popularized it. We gotta call it something, and I like the name.
Sprit sent me his 60% and 75% drawings so I could build minimal cases for those builds. Love the fact that the 'swill case' is catching on a bit. :) I love that case concept and I use it on all my custom boards right now. I have been seeing a lot of people take the idea and remix it and make it theirs and really come up with some cool stuff. Thats awesome...
I have not thought of rotating on non-90-degree angles. I will have to put more thought into that one. It won't be in version 1, that I can tell you for sure. :)Excellent to hear! That is the design philosophy I like most. I also like the closed development open source (when its done) model of making things.
Basically, I am going to automatically add stabilizer holes on keys that are 2u or greater. I will just put 2u stab holes on everything up to 4u, at which point I will start using different stab sizes like the SP spacing (i think). And then each of the space bar sizes will have their own stab cutout sizes. This will be automatically generated based on the size of the key. For vertical keys, I will put stab cutouts if the key is larger than 2u.
I will be offering 4 different switch opening types, one of which allows for MX switches to be rotated 90º. One of the switch openings will also support Alps switches (but will have MX stab holes for now).
I am going to be drawing the stab cutouts tonight. I am going to try to make it so you can put the stabilizer in either way. We will see if that is possible once I sit down with the Cherry specification sheet and start playing with it.
Keep throwing ideas my way. It is MUCH easier to build in features (or at least setup my code so I can support the features later) if I get the wishlist stuff now. These are really good things for me to be paying attention to.
okay I'll give it some thought when I'm at work today and hopefully have ideas for you later.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 15:31:36
I have not thought of stepped keys. I may have to look into that later. Thanks for getting that on my radar. The vertical keys should not be a problem. They are defined as the following in in Raw data: {h:2},"Enter"This, I see is a problem. What if I have a KB like this that has a vertical key that's 2 different widths?Show Image(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/11317167275_b236c29741_o.jpg)They do exist also for cherry. I think the only issue here ('cause I don't care what the layout shows as long as it works) is making sure that the switch is in the right place underneath the ISO enter or whatever. IIRC for cherry they are in the middle between the rows.I will try to put together as many layouts as I can find and then I will do a call out (when I am ready) for anyone who has dims to help me out getting me the details. I will start small and work my way from there...Probably one of my fav compact designs. plate mounted KB with a "swill case". I used to resent it because it was invented before you were a member here but you popularized it. We gotta call it something, and I like the name.
Sprit sent me his 60% and 75% drawings so I could build minimal cases for those builds. Love the fact that the 'swill case' is catching on a bit. :) I love that case concept and I use it on all my custom boards right now. I have been seeing a lot of people take the idea and remix it and make it theirs and really come up with some cool stuff. Thats awesome...I have not thought of rotating on non-90-degree angles. I will have to put more thought into that one. It won't be in version 1, that I can tell you for sure. :)Excellent to hear! That is the design philosophy I like most. I also like the closed development open source (when its done) model of making things.Basically, I am going to automatically add stabilizer holes on keys that are 2u or greater. I will just put 2u stab holes on everything up to 4u, at which point I will start using different stab sizes like the SP spacing (i think). And then each of the space bar sizes will have their own stab cutout sizes. This will be automatically generated based on the size of the key. For vertical keys, I will put stab cutouts if the key is larger than 2u.
I will be offering 4 different switch opening types, one of which allows for MX switches to be rotated 90º. One of the switch openings will also support Alps switches (but will have MX stab holes for now).
I am going to be drawing the stab cutouts tonight. I am going to try to make it so you can put the stabilizer in either way. We will see if that is possible once I sit down with the Cherry specification sheet and start playing with it.
Keep throwing ideas my way. It is MUCH easier to build in features (or at least setup my code so I can support the features later) if I get the wishlist stuff now. These are really good things for me to be paying attention to.
okay I'll give it some thought when I'm at work today and hopefully have ideas for you later.
The ISO enter is supported by the keyboard-layout-editor, so it should be possible to support. I will have to figure out some of the details on that one because it does not really predict where the switch placement should be based on the description of the key (unlike most of the other keys).
Here is the code for an ISO enter: {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"
I am not planning to support ISO on the first version. I will slowly add support for new features like this (or others can offer pull requests) once the code is made available. It is easier to stay focused on the code and get something working when I am doing it alone to start. Once I have something then I can release it into the wild and others can start playing with it and contributing.
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 04 November 2014, 15:50:26
Awesome idea!
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
I am scripting this, so everything will be based off dimensions which I dictate.
For example:
The space taken up by a single key is 19.05mm
1u = 19.05
1.25u = 19.05*1.25
1.50u = 19.05*1.50
... and so on ...
I am using the key unit sizes to determine where the switch cutouts should be placed.
This is what you are referring to right? Correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
Spacing between the keys that are next to each other will be set. I am referring to the width between blocks of keys - like between the main typing area compared to the arrows/6 pack, or between the main typing area and the function row.
Ahh, gotcha. Yes, I am planning to do the same thing that the keyboard-layout-editor does. He has basically defined that space as a fraction of a u1 key. It seems to work pretty well, so I was planning to do the same thing. So yes, I would be supporting putting blank space between keys. This would be automatic if your layout in the keyboard-layout-editor has them.
This is what I mean is not accurate enough in the existing layout editor. Sure you can specify .5 or .25 of a key width for spacing. But if I need the spacing between the 6 pack and numpad to be exactly 0.3875" - can't do that.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 16:17:43
Awesome idea!
Only thought I have at the moment - is providing a way to specify widths between blocks of keys on the plate (horizontal / vertical). You can only get so accurate using the keyboard layout editor online.
I am scripting this, so everything will be based off dimensions which I dictate.
For example:
The space taken up by a single key is 19.05mm
1u = 19.05
1.25u = 19.05*1.25
1.50u = 19.05*1.50
... and so on ...
I am using the key unit sizes to determine where the switch cutouts should be placed.
This is what you are referring to right? Correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
Spacing between the keys that are next to each other will be set. I am referring to the width between blocks of keys - like between the main typing area compared to the arrows/6 pack, or between the main typing area and the function row.
Ahh, gotcha. Yes, I am planning to do the same thing that the keyboard-layout-editor does. He has basically defined that space as a fraction of a u1 key. It seems to work pretty well, so I was planning to do the same thing. So yes, I would be supporting putting blank space between keys. This would be automatic if your layout in the keyboard-layout-editor has them.
This is what I mean is not accurate enough in the existing layout editor. Sure you can specify .5 or .25 of a key width for spacing. But if I need the spacing between the 6 pack and numpad to be exactly 0.3875" - can't do that.
0.3875" = 9.8425mm
1/19.05 = x/9.8425
x = 9.8425/19.05
x = .51667
So the code would be as follows to get your exact dimension:
"Pause",{x:51667},"7"
Make sense???
Post by: OverKill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 17:03:01
So I have been thinking about this exact for some time and I had planned on using the SolidWorks API to create the DWG/DXF file that you would need for this and then I was going to use the Esprit API to automatically generate the G-code to machine the plate. The problem that I ran in to was stabilizers. They are different based on who manufactures the cap. For instance: SP has a 6.25 unit space bar but the stabilizer spacing is different from the 6.25u spacebar from... I can't remember who right now but the spacing was about .03" per side difference (about 1/16" total). It was enough that you needed to either buy your spacebar around your stab or make your plate around your spacebar. As far as I know the issue was limited to the space bar but I cannot remember the specifics.
Sure there are a few ways to skin a cat and this isn't some impossible hurdle but it is something people will need to be aware of when designing their plate. If you have any questions feel free to PM me or hit me up on IRC.
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 17:29:47
Hi Swill,
So I have been thinking about this exact for some time and I had planned on using the SolidWorks API to create the DWG/DXF file that you would need for this and then I was going to use the Esprit API to automatically generate the G-code to machine the plate. The problem that I ran in to was stabilizers. They are different based on who manufactures the cap. For instance: SP has a 6.25 unit space bar but the stabilizer spacing is different from the 6.25u spacebar from... I can't remember who right now but the spacing was about .03" per side difference (about 1/16" total). It was enough that you needed to either buy your spacebar around your stab or make your plate around your spacebar. As far as I know the issue was limited to the space bar but I cannot remember the specifics.
Sure there are a few ways to skin a cat and this isn't some impossible hurdle but it is something people will need to be aware of when designing their plate. If you have any questions feel free to PM me or hit me up on IRC.
I was JUST looking into this. :) I just switched tabs over from the Cherry spec: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/mx_cat.pdf
In the OP of the GH CAD Resource Hub (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.msg1019782#msg1019782), I found the following (and the associated DWG which I am trying to get working in FreeCAD right now). I may choose to use the universal stabs for everything, but I am not sure. Maybe I will implement both the standard stabs as well as giving an option for people to use the universal stab type. I am actively working on this right now, so I will have a better idea how I want to solve this problem later tonight. :) Thanks for the heads up...
(http://i.imgur.com/Hd5kmJA.png)
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 04 November 2014, 20:41:44
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:00:28
So I have been doing a lot of research on this topic and have looked at a lot of CAD files. I have also done a bunch of measurements of a switch as well as a hammer plate.
So here is a bunch of random questions:
- I see in the Cherry spec that the main cutout area is 14mm +- 0.05mm
- I see a range of sizes in different drawings. The most common are: 13.95mm and 13.97mm. Is there a reason people are always drawing the cutout a bit smaller than the spec? Does it have to do with the machining taking more material than you draw usually?
- I have no idea what cad files Hammer used, but they do not match up to any of the drawings I am seeing. Some of his dimensions are bigger than the drawings I am seeing and some of his are also smaller, so its not like it was the same drawing and the cuts are consistently bigger or something like that. For example, his main cutout area is 14.1mm but his flaps are only 2.9mm wide (where many drawings have them at 3.5mm wide or there abouts and the main cutout at 13.95mm for that cutout type)
- For the switch flaps, I am seeing some different numbers, but 15.6mm is pretty common in drawings. 15.57mm also shows up in a couple places. Again, smaller... Is there a theme?
- When I measured the distance between the flaps on the Hammer plate and it is a huge 16.9mm. I know this measurement is not the most important because it is just a convenience factor for ease of switch removal.
The only measurements that REALLY make sense to me are the dimensions for one of the layouts that jdcarpe suggested. Basically a 14mm main cutout with a 12.8mm x 15.6mm rectangle centered in it. This is both MX and Alps compatible and those numbers just make sense to me.
So in short. Is there a reason everyone is drawing these cutouts smaller than the spec?
@jdcarpe: if you are watching this thread. do you know what switch cutout dimensions were used for the universal tkl plate you sold me? i will get after that plate with a caliper and see if i can figure out what the expected tolerances are in cutting and how close they are to the drawing in reality.
Anyone with experience on this, please chime in. I am drawing all of these cutouts via code, so I can easily change it later, but it is a lot of work to draw out some of the more elaborate cutouts. I also want to get an idea of what I am doing and why people have made the decisions they have before I get into drawing the stabilizers and automating the creation of them because they are even more complicated to draw than the switch cutouts.
Thanks again for everyone who has been giving me feedback in this thread. :)
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:32:29
Also, I don't think it matters that much, anyway. The switch housings do not have such tight tolerances that they can't be made to work with holes of 14.0 or 13.95 mm.
As far as cutouts go, I prefer either the simple square (best for hand wiring), the "Phantom" tab style, or the MX/Alps combo. The last one really precludes the need for the Phantom style, so you could even eliminate that one entirely. The one with tabs for 90-degree rotation is not acceptable for my own use, after testing with real world examples.
I think Hammer may have his plates machined instead of laser cut, similar to how GON makes his. That may account for the larger hole dimensions that don't seem to make sense.
Post by: swill on Wed, 05 November 2014, 09:57:04
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/simple.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/complex.png)
Post by: swill on Fri, 07 November 2014, 21:55:03
Tonight I drew up the 2 unit stabilizers based on the cherry spec. I may change this later, but for now I am basically overlaying the switch cutout over the cherry spec 2 unit stabilizer. Please add comments if you see problems with this approach. According to how I am seeing the problem, this should work pretty well. Is there a reason I would need to draw any different types of 2 unit stabilizers? What would the universal stabilizer cutout offer that these don't?
Any feedback on this would be helpful.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/2unit_stabs.png)
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 07 November 2014, 22:41:53
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 08 November 2014, 01:34:28
1. Use the universal style cutout for the stab areas, because as Melvang said, it would allow use of costar stabs as well.
2. I'll post a second type of stab cutout, which is used for acrylic plates, actually any plate thicker than 2mm, it allows the use of only PCB mounted stabs, but no modification has to be done to the stabs as the cutout allows for enough room for the complete stabs to come through and not interact with the plate.
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 10:03:05
The universal stab cut out would offer the use of costar stabs as well.Oh OK. I didn't realize that the cherry spec only supported cherry style stabs. I guess now that I write it, it makes sense. Thx. I will draw the universal stab tonight. I have the details from the OP of the CAD resource page.
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 10:10:54
Two recommendations:Great thanks MOZ. I will draw the universal tonight and if you post another type for thicker plates, I will make it available too.
1. Use the universal style cutout for the stab areas, because as Melvang said, it would allow use of costar stabs as well.
2. I'll post a second type of stab cutout, which is used for acrylic plates, actually any plate thicker than 2mm, it allows the use of only PCB mounted stabs, but no modification has to be done to the stabs as the cutout allows for enough room for the complete stabs to come through and not interact with the plate.
I will be giving people the choice of what switch cutout they want, which 2u stab cutout they want and which spacebar cutout they want (which I have not drawn yet).
Slow and steady. Once I get the spacebars drawn I will be ready to start putting together the actual layout logic. I will be starting with only ANSII (and modifications of ANSII) to start. I will support vertical keys to start, but probably not the iso enter in the first version.
I have to start somewhere and this is the easiest way for me to get started.
Thanks for the support guys.
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 21:43:11
Here is what I am talking about...
(http://i.imgur.com/Hd5kmJA.png)
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 08 November 2014, 21:46:43
I am confused... Why do the different sized keys have different universal stabilizer sizes? I thought that they all would take the same 2 unit stabilizer. Why would there be other sized cutouts?
Here is what I am talking about...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Hd5kmJA.png)
I could be wrong but I think the cutouts ate the same, but the horizontal spacing around the stabilizer changes.
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 21:52:44
I am confused... Why do the different sized keys have different universal stabilizer sizes? I thought that they all would take the same 2 unit stabilizer. Why would there be other sized cutouts?
Here is what I am talking about...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Hd5kmJA.png)
I could be wrong but I think the cutouts ate the same, but the horizontal spacing around the stabilizer changes.
Yes, the tabs on the bottom are both 3.3mm and the space between them is 20.6mm on all of them. Why would you need extra space around them? Why wouldn't you be able to just the 2u one (backspace in that drawing) for all of those other keys?
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 08 November 2014, 21:56:47
I am confused... Why do the different sized keys have different universal stabilizer sizes? I thought that they all would take the same 2 unit stabilizer. Why would there be other sized cutouts?
Here is what I am talking about...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Hd5kmJA.png)
I could be wrong but I think the cutouts ate the same, but the horizontal spacing around the stabilizer changes.
Yes, the tabs on the bottom are both 3.3mm and the space between them is 20.6mm on all of them. Why would you need extra space around them? Why wouldn't you be able to just the 2u one (backspace in that drawing) for all of those other keys?
Isn't that extra space around them just meant to mark how much distance is required between cutouts to fit the proper caps on?
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 08 November 2014, 21:58:14
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 22:12:14
Yeah 2u through 2.75u all have the same dimensions. So the extra space is just there for the caps.
Ok, thanks for confirming. I am just going to draw the 2u version then because that will just simplify things for my program. Thx...
Final question. What is the significance of the tabs on the right and left of that? Is that incase you decide to actually put two switches in that space instead of one with a stabilizer, those two switches can be opened? According to my measurements neither stabilizer will reach that far to either side.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 08 November 2014, 22:14:46
Yeah 2u through 2.75u all have the same dimensions. So the extra space is just there for the caps.
Ok, thanks for confirming. I am just going to draw the 2u version then because that will just simplify things for my program. Thx...
Final question. What is the significance of the tabs on the right and left of that? Is that incase you decide to actually put two switches in that space instead of one with a stabilizer, those two switches can be opened? According to my measurements neither stabilizer will reach that far to either side.
That I can't really help you with, sorry.
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 22:23:02
Yeah 2u through 2.75u all have the same dimensions. So the extra space is just there for the caps.
Ok, thanks for confirming. I am just going to draw the 2u version then because that will just simplify things for my program. Thx...
Final question. What is the significance of the tabs on the right and left of that? Is that incase you decide to actually put two switches in that space instead of one with a stabilizer, those two switches can be opened? According to my measurements neither stabilizer will reach that far to either side.
That I can't really help you with, sorry.
No worries. I appreciate the help. :)
I am going to make that assumption because the opening (without the tabs) is 33mm which is 19mm (two switch centers) and then 7mm on the outside of center for both of them. Now that I do the math, I am pretty confident that is the case. I will draw mine that way too just to be consistent. Thx...
Post by: swill on Sat, 08 November 2014, 23:16:14
Getting there... :) Once I have a couple spacebars drawn I will start automating the actual layouts. Then the fun really begins...
Tonights progress:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/2unit_universal.png)
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 08 November 2014, 23:52:40
Final question. What is the significance of the tabs on the right and left of that? Is that incase you decide to actually put two switches in that space instead of one with a stabilizer, those two switches can be opened? According to my measurements neither stabilizer will reach that far to either side.I think it's just so you can just copy/paste the cutouts across the row and it'll all line up easily: to make it easy for people to build plates and also see that they'll fit their layout and also line-up properly.
TBH, I'd probably do it in a similar way: have a lookup-table for predefined cutouts for all the common switches, and then paste across rows to render the CAD output. but I'm not a programmer so IDK how efficient that'd be.
Actually I'd have just the switch and just also store the spacing, so it'd paste space, switch&stab cutout, space then move on to the next one in the layout. But again: I only programmed in QBasic when I was like 10.
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 09 November 2014, 01:31:41
I run renderSpacebar( -2.625, -2.1, 2.625, 2.1 ); and it'll draw a stabilizer with cutouts at those unit positions for the 6.25u A+B style.
Not as easy to render the options like stab openings, or screw holes, but I'll get to that whenever I get to it.
Post by: swill on Sun, 09 November 2014, 08:46:59
Final question. What is the significance of the tabs on the right and left of that? Is that incase you decide to actually put two switches in that space instead of one with a stabilizer, those two switches can be opened? According to my measurements neither stabilizer will reach that far to either side.I think it's just so you can just copy/paste the cutouts across the row and it'll all line up easily: to make it easy for people to build plates and also see that they'll fit their layout and also line-up properly.
TBH, I'd probably do it in a similar way: have a lookup-table for predefined cutouts for all the common switches, and then paste across rows to render the CAD output. but I'm not a programmer so IDK how efficient that'd be.
Actually I'd have just the switch and just also store the spacing, so it'd paste space, switch&stab cutout, space then move on to the next one in the layout. But again: I only programmed in QBasic when I was like 10.
This is similar to what I am doing. Basically, I am drawing each of the different components. Then when my program parses the layout, it will move across the board and place the appropriate cutouts in the different locations.
Post by: swill on Sun, 09 November 2014, 09:41:06
The method I'm using for my SVG renderer is drawing a path with variable distances. Functionally, the 2u is the same as the 10u with a longer bar, so I initiate a path, move to position, and start tracing a line using relative coords, and then once I hit a variable, I use absolute coords based on Cherry specs.
I run renderSpacebar( -2.625, -2.1, 2.625, 2.1 ); and it'll draw a stabilizer with cutouts at those unit positions for the 6.25u A+B style.
Not as easy to render the options like stab openings, or screw holes, but I'll get to that whenever I get to it.
This is similar to what I am doing, but I am not setting up my layout before hand and then placing the switches after. Instead, I will run over the layout quickly once just to figure out some sums so I can determine the size of the plate based on the number and size of the keys. When working with redefined case layouts (like the poker for example), then I will have to do a little magic to figure out how to get the holes between switches, but we will see...
Basically, I will be cutting one switch at a time based on the current switch size and the previous switch size. I will be looping through each row and placing the switches and 2u stabilizers for keys 2 <= key < 3.
I will have global settings for all of the following details:
these options will be shown after you specify your source layout so I know what size spacebar you will be using and such.
- Switch type (the 4 types I have shown so far)
- 2 unit stab (cherry spec or universal so far)
- spacebar type (cherry spec or universal so far. i will probably draw more options later)
Then when I move through the switches and draw them I will use the global settings to know which switch type to draw. If the key size is (2 <= key < 3) then it will draw a 2 unit stabilizer based on your selection. If the key is (3 <= key), then it will pick draw a spacebar stabilizer based on your previous selection.
Keep in mind that I am still planning this and this is what I have come up with so far.
Currently I have the following function for cutting the switch: cut_switch(p, c, s=None)
It takes the plate to cut the switch on (p) as well as the center of where the switch should be cut (c) and if a stabilizer should be cut (s) which will be a numerical value of the size of the stab to be cut.
When moving from one switch location to the next, the (c) value is calculated as:
c = .5*prev_switch_size*1unit_size + .5*curr_switch_size*1unit_size
So for example, for my testing, the following layout is created with the code below:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/layout.png)
Code: [Select]
p = init_plate()
p = p.center((-plate_width/2)+(switch_size/2), (-plate_height/2)+(switch_size/2))
p = cut_switch(p, (plate_x_pad, plate_y_pad))
x_off += u1 - plate_x_pad
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = cut_switch(p, (u1, 0))
p = p.center(-x_off, u1)
x_off = 0
switch_type = 0
p = cut_switch(p, (1.5*u1, 0))
switch_type = 1
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0))
switch_type = 2
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0))
switch_type = 3
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0))
p = p.center(-x_off, u1)
x_off = 0
switch_type = 0
u2_stab_type = 0
p = cut_switch(p, (1.5*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 1
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 2
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 3
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
p = p.center(-x_off, u1)
x_off = 0
switch_type = 0
u2_stab_type = 1
p = cut_switch(p, (1.5*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 1
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 2
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
switch_type = 3
p = cut_switch(p, (2*u1, 0), 2)
Obviously this is not automated yet, but I am trying to put the pieces in place to be able to easily automate.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 09 November 2014, 11:47:41
- Your stabilizer holes are for Cherry stabs only, but I'm sure you knew that. A couple rectangular notches on the top, and you can use those holes with Costar stabs, as well.
- If you use the Cherry spec sheet stabilizer hole, and cut out the little tabs where the stab insert holes connect to the switch hole at the top, it works fine with the ability to open the switches. But you won't have Alps compatibility with that type of hole.
- Your 2-unit "universal" cutout is ONLY useful for exactly one location on a keyboard -- the Backspace. The other locations, i.e. Left Shift, Right Shift, Enter, require different spacing due to how their switches are arranged.
- Also, I'm not sure Cherry plate mount stabs will clip on tho the "universal" hole cutouts. In the past, we have REQUIRED the use of PCB mount stabs if you use a plate with "universal" holes.
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 09 November 2014, 14:03:54
1. dorkvader was right in pointing out that the file you posted from the GH CAD resources thread, has same stab cutouts for 2u-2.75u keys, just the bounding boxes are of different sizes, which allows new users to just copy and paste these drawings and join corner to corner, without having to worry about spacing.
2. When you said "universal" cutout I thought you meant the one jdcarpe has mentioned above, as in Cherry spec stabs with extra notches on the top to allow for costar stabs.
3. The universal cutout as you have now, as pointed out by JD, is useful only for the Backspace and something I wouldn't really recommend as it does't hold the switch very well or the stabs and is useful most with PCB mount switches and stabs. Besides, it is more of an "advance" concept, since you are making the tool for people starting out, I'd recommend to skip this option for now. As a second phase feature for your tool, you could include an option to add other options to a base layout, like a split backspace, and the tool would then automatically combine the cutouts and generate a new cutout, this would allow the user to have multi-layout plates to their liking, without you having to worry about all the possible cutouts.
Post by: swill on Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:45:21
- Your stabilizer holes are for Cherry stabs only, but I'm sure you knew that. A couple rectangular notches on the top, and you can use those holes with Costar stabs, as well.
Yes, I did understand that. I thought the 'universal' plate was costar compatible, but I am not sure that it is. I was kind of going off the fact that it was called 'universal'.
- If you use the Cherry spec sheet stabilizer hole, and cut out the little tabs where the stab insert holes connect to the switch hole at the top, it works fine with the ability to open the switches. But you won't have Alps compatibility with that type of hole.
Ok, I will revisit this drawing and try to make this one drawing work for both costar and cherry stabs. Is there a cutout that is costar and cherry compatible as well as alps compatible?
- Your 2-unit "universal" cutout is ONLY useful for exactly one location on a keyboard -- the Backspace. The other locations, i.e. Left Shift, Right Shift, Enter, require different spacing due to how their switches are arranged.
- Also, I'm not sure Cherry plate mount stabs will clip on tho the "universal" hole cutouts. In the past, we have REQUIRED the use of PCB mount stabs if you use a plate with "universal" holes.
I think I understand what the 'universal' cutout is designed for. I think it is mainly to solve for people not knowing if they want to put one or two switches there and if they put one switch they can put pcb mount stabilizers. I am not really targeting this level of detail yet, so I will stick with standard stabilizers and will adjust the spacing around them depending on the size of the key.
This is the only thing I have been able to find for the measurements for costar stabilizers. Is this correct? I will be using this spec unless someone else has a better resource somewhere.
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html
Thanks again for the great feedback...
Post by: swill on Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:54:07
JD, pretty much cleared all the points I was going to outline, but just a couple of things I recall:
1. dorkvader was right in pointing out that the file you posted from the GH CAD resources thread, has same stab cutouts for 2u-2.75u keys, just the bounding boxes are of different sizes, which allows new users to just copy and paste these drawings and join corner to corner, without having to worry about spacing.
2. When you said "universal" cutout I thought you meant the one jdcarpe has mentioned above, as in Cherry spec stabs with extra notches on the top to allow for costar stabs.
3. The universal cutout as you have now, as pointed out by JD, is useful only for the Backspace and something I wouldn't really recommend as it does't hold the switch very well or the stabs and is useful most with PCB mount switches and stabs. Besides, it is more of an "advance" concept, since you are making the tool for people starting out, I'd recommend to skip this option for now. As a second phase feature for your tool, you could include an option to add other options to a base layout, like a split backspace, and the tool would then automatically combine the cutouts and generate a new cutout, this would allow the user to have multi-layout plates to their liking, without you having to worry about all the possible cutouts.
Thank you for the additional detail. I am starting to get my head around all this stuff now. I am really green when it comes down to all the details when it comes to drawing the different compatibilities and why some cutouts are drawn the way they are. If the costar spec I linked in the previous post, I should be all set to draw a cherry spec stabilizer with costar support. I am getting pretty good with drawing cutouts from code now, so that is definitely making me more comfortable. :)
I do have a couple plates with the 'universal' cutouts as defined in the OP of the CAD Resource thread (which is where I got that naming from). The switch would click in (if my plate was not 5mm acrylic), but it does require you to use PCB mount stabilizers. Not sure how I missed that when I did that drawing. I think the fact that the bottom tabs in that layout matched exactly to the costar spec, I got a bit blinded by the fact that the height of the opening was not correct (its an extra .85mm to tall).
I will revisit my cherry spec drawing and adapt it to also work for costar and I will go with that for my 2u stabs for now. I have to admit, I am dreading that I have to draw all of those different spacebar stabilizer cutouts. Haha... I will probably start out with just a couple and just make sure my code can be expanded later to support the rest and I will move on to the next piece and come back to the rest of the cutouts.
Thanks again for all the support and suggestions. It has been invaluable to have you guys reviewing my work (and theories) and setting me straight. I really appreciate it. :)
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:50:13
Attached is a drawing of the stabilizer hole I use.
Post by: swill on Mon, 10 November 2014, 12:51:54
I went back over all the plates I have been drawing, and every one of them uses the 13.97mm dimension for the MX square. I don't know if that helps with the laser kerf, but I suspect it does.
Attached is a drawing of the stabilizer hole I use.
Thanks for that. I will use that as a guide. I am going to see how close it is to mine (other than the tabs on the top). I think that the tabs on the bottom are slightly different as well because the tabs on the bottom are slightly different between cherry and costar. This is really helpful, thanks...
Out of interest. The switch hole in this stabilizer cutout is 14mm instead of 13.97mm. I wonder if the 13.97 has just been propagated with copy and paste from the initial drawings (converted from standard measurements .55" instead of .551").
What do you think? Do you think it was intentional to use that size because of laser cutting kerf or do you think it is just a remnant of previous loss of precision that no one cared to change?
I have to draw all these cutouts manually because I am creating this from code, so I can't just copy and paste from other people's work. That being said, it is much easier to work with 14 instead of 13.97 for me since I am manually writing out all the vertices.
For example, your prefered switch cutout (supports both mx and alps), is a relatively simple cutout. If I use the numbers 14mm, 12.8mm and 15.6mm, it results in the following array.
Code: [Select]
points = [
(7,-7), (7,-6.4), (7.8,-6.4),
(7.8,6.4), (7,6.4), (7,7),
(-7,7), (-7,6.4), (-7.8,6.4),
(-7.8,-6.4), (-7,-6.4), (-7,-7), (7,-7)
]
Which then gets cut with the following:
Code: [Select]
p = p.center(c[0],c[1]).polyline(points).cutThruAll()
It is a bit more of a pain and messy if I work with the 13.97mm number. I am trying to do this 'right' though, so I don't mind doing more work even if it is a pain if it is the best solution.
Once I get all of the components drawn, I am going to layout all of the components on one piece of material and see if I can find someone to cut it for me (and potentially test for me as well) so I can be sure that each of the components works as expected.
Post by: OverKill on Tue, 11 November 2014, 15:54:38
I went back over all the plates I have been drawing, and every one of them uses the 13.97mm dimension for the MX square. I don't know if that helps with the laser kerf, but I suspect it does.
Attached is a drawing of the stabilizer hole I use.
Thanks for that. I will use that as a guide. I am going to see how close it is to mine (other than the tabs on the top). I think that the tabs on the bottom are slightly different as well because the tabs on the bottom are slightly different between cherry and costar. This is really helpful, thanks...
Out of interest. The switch hole in this stabilizer cutout is 14mm instead of 13.97mm. I wonder if the 13.97 has just been propagated with copy and paste from the initial drawings (converted from standard measurements .55" instead of .551").
What do you think? Do you think it was intentional to use that size because of laser cutting kerf or do you think it is just a remnant of previous loss of precision that no one cared to change?
I have to draw all these cutouts manually because I am creating this from code, so I can't just copy and paste from other people's work. That being said, it is much easier to work with 14 instead of 13.97 for me since I am manually writing out all the vertices.
For example, your prefered switch cutout (supports both mx and alps), is a relatively simple cutout. If I use the numbers 14mm, 12.8mm and 15.6mm, it results in the following array.Code: [Select]points = [
(7,-7), (7,-6.4), (7.8,-6.4),
(7.8,6.4), (7,6.4), (7,7),
(-7,7), (-7,6.4), (-7.8,6.4),
(-7.8,-6.4), (-7,-6.4), (-7,-7), (7,-7)
]
Which then gets cut with the following:Code: [Select]p = p.center(c[0],c[1]).polyline(points).cutThruAll()
It is a bit more of a pain and messy if I work with the 13.97mm number. I am trying to do this 'right' though, so I don't mind doing more work even if it is a pain if it is the best solution.
Once I get all of the components drawn, I am going to layout all of the components on one piece of material and see if I can find someone to cut it for me (and potentially test for me as well) so I can be sure that each of the components works as expected.
There is no need to work with 13.97mm. Stick with 14mm. When people get their plates made, if there is an issue they can specify they want the tolerance of the holes to be -.003 +0 or -.005 +0. I have made all of my plates and prototypes to cherry spec and they are fine.
Post by: swill on Tue, 11 November 2014, 16:40:53
Great. Thanks for confirming that, I can rest easy now. :)I went back over all the plates I have been drawing, and every one of them uses the 13.97mm dimension for the MX square. I don't know if that helps with the laser kerf, but I suspect it does.
Attached is a drawing of the stabilizer hole I use.
Thanks for that. I will use that as a guide. I am going to see how close it is to mine (other than the tabs on the top). I think that the tabs on the bottom are slightly different as well because the tabs on the bottom are slightly different between cherry and costar. This is really helpful, thanks...
Out of interest. The switch hole in this stabilizer cutout is 14mm instead of 13.97mm. I wonder if the 13.97 has just been propagated with copy and paste from the initial drawings (converted from standard measurements .55" instead of .551").
What do you think? Do you think it was intentional to use that size because of laser cutting kerf or do you think it is just a remnant of previous loss of precision that no one cared to change?
I have to draw all these cutouts manually because I am creating this from code, so I can't just copy and paste from other people's work. That being said, it is much easier to work with 14 instead of 13.97 for me since I am manually writing out all the vertices.
For example, your prefered switch cutout (supports both mx and alps), is a relatively simple cutout. If I use the numbers 14mm, 12.8mm and 15.6mm, it results in the following array.Code: [Select]points = [
(7,-7), (7,-6.4), (7.8,-6.4),
(7.8,6.4), (7,6.4), (7,7),
(-7,7), (-7,6.4), (-7.8,6.4),
(-7.8,-6.4), (-7,-6.4), (-7,-7), (7,-7)
]
Which then gets cut with the following:Code: [Select]p = p.center(c[0],c[1]).polyline(points).cutThruAll()
It is a bit more of a pain and messy if I work with the 13.97mm number. I am trying to do this 'right' though, so I don't mind doing more work even if it is a pain if it is the best solution.
Once I get all of the components drawn, I am going to layout all of the components on one piece of material and see if I can find someone to cut it for me (and potentially test for me as well) so I can be sure that each of the components works as expected.
There is no need to work with 13.97mm. Stick with 14mm. When people get their plates made, if there is an issue they can specify they want the tolerance of the holes to be -.003 +0 or -.005 +0. I have made all of my plates and prototypes to cherry spec and they are fine.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 11 November 2014, 20:46:56
Post by: swill on Sat, 15 November 2014, 23:30:15
In general, it looks like a lot of the cutouts do something like move the cherry cutout .15mm +/- up (mostly) and then add the costar cutout to it. So far, I think the reason they do this is because there is extra space in the bottom tab by about .2mm that is outside the costar spec, so in order to get the tolerances closer to the costar spec, they slightly move the cherry spec up. I am kind of guessing here, but that is what it is looking like right now given my current calculations.
The reason I am spending so much time understanding this right now is because I will basically be using the same stabilizer layout for the spacebars and I only want to draw them once (or as few times as possible). :)
Anyway, slow but I am making progress. Once I get these drawn things will start to go quicker. Thats what I got for an update today... :P
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 16 November 2014, 00:13:53
Post by: swill on Sun, 16 November 2014, 11:43:25
you know this might be part of the reason I've always had huge issues with cherry PM stabilizers. They are all for custom plates and require a custom bent wire, where a slightly off length or bend radius can be the difference between it working and failing. An additional +-0.2mm tolerance level will further exacerbate the issue.Now that you mention it, I too have had issues with cherry PM stabs in custom plates. Something was rubbing somewhere that was causing the key to not reset correctly. I solved the problem by using a stab wire that had a slightly smaller than spec diameter and that fixed it for me. I could not figure out for the life of me what was rubbing. I will have to go back and see if it was the stab wire rubbing against the switch body. I have to admit I never even thought to check that when I was troubleshooting.
Thanks for jogging my memory. :)
Given my understanding of costar stabilizers, it probably would not be the end of the world if you moved it down 0.2mm since that would only ever affect the 'up' position and I doubt it would even be noticeable if it did make it touch somewhere. What do you guys think?
Post by: OverKill on Mon, 17 November 2014, 09:29:39
Plus when getting plates laser cut from stainless, there is enough texture from the cut itself that it REALLY grabs the hell out of the switch. I noticed this with the JD40. I can't speak for waterjet though. You don't see this on factory OEM plates due to the cost of doing that large of volume it is far cheaper to stamp/die cut all those holes and you end up with a smooth face on the edges of the switch hole so the size is a touch more critical.
JD himself said he specs his holes smaller so that is most likely what you are noticing with it "grabbing" more.
Post by: swill on Mon, 17 November 2014, 09:36:41
I am not sure that 3 hundredths of a MM is going to make a noticeable difference. I am pretty sure the cutting tolerance is bigger than that. Cherry spec is +/- 5 hundredths of a MM.Plus when getting plates laser cut from stainless, there is enough texture from the cut itself that it REALLY grabs the hell out of the switch. I noticed this with the JD40. I can't speak for waterjet though. You don't see this on factory OEM plates due to the cost of doing that large of volume it is far cheaper to stamp/die cut all those holes and you end up with a smooth face on the edges of the switch hole so the size is a touch more critical.
JD himself said he specs his holes smaller so that is most likely what you are noticing with it "grabbing" more.
The laser cutting I have seen probably have the equivalent of teeth at least 1 tenth of a MM because the process does not leave a smooth surface.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 December 2014, 22:58:37
So basically every drawing that I have seen so far is different and I am not sure why that is. So tonight I basically tried to do exactly what the cherry spec says and then modified it slightly to be costar compatible.
From a cherry spec perspective is is pretty much 100% accurate. The differences are really only with the costar spec. Due to the positioning of the bottom tab on the cherry spec, the costar spec will either be too low or the opening will be too large. I am not sure the differences we are working with will make a difference, but here is what I have so far.
Costar spec says the stab holes should be 14mm long and they should start .75mm lower than the top of the switch opening. Right now mine are 14mm long and start .97mm lower than the top of the switch opening.
However, none of the other drawings actually meet the costar spec either. For example...
- jdcarp's drawing has a 14.2mm long costar stabilizer opening and it is only .53mm lower than the top of the switch opening.
- most of the drawings in the CAD Resource OP have a 13.97mm long costar stabilizer opening and it is .77mm from the top of the switch opening (however the cherry spec opening is shifted up about .15mm to .2mm).
Which opening do you feel is the one that should be closer to 'correct' according to spec? I am guessing that the cherry spec one is more important to be closer to the spec because I am concerned that the wire may rub on the switch housing if it is pushed up too much (I think I have experienced that, I still need to check).
I could split the difference. Make my opening 14.1mm long and add that .1mm to the top. The drawings in the OP of the CAD Resource only have a 1.14mm bottom tab (I currently have a 1.2mm bottom tab because that is what the cherry spec said to put). If I adjusted it to a 1.15mm tab I would have the following: A 14.1mm long stabilizer opening and it would be .82mm from the top of the switch opening. I think that basically gets us to within the tolerances on all the different dimensions... Thoughts???
Here are the cutouts (with the different switch opening options):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/2unit_swill_stabs.png)
And here are the dimensions of the cutout with the basic switch opening. This is basically exactly to the cherry spec with a slightly wider bottom tab (from 3.0mm to 3.3mm) to meet the costar spec and then a small bump on the top to meet the costar spec of 14mm long stab hole.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/2unit_swill_stab_dims.png)
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 02 December 2014, 10:12:12
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 02 December 2014, 10:24:27
Post by: swill on Tue, 09 December 2014, 07:32:33
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 09 December 2014, 09:18:06
If that diagram is correct. Then you can use those specs to extend the design to any stab positions. Basically, the costar stab slot is going to be 14mm tall, 3.3mm wide and 0.75mm below the top of the switch. The horizontal position can be found by aligning the horizontal center of the costar slot with those specified here:
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions
Post by: swill on Tue, 09 December 2014, 09:34:32
Are there any official costar specs available? Or is everyone using this information as standard: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html.
If that diagram is correct. Then you can use those specs to extend the design to any stab positions. Basically, the costar stab slot is going to be 14mm tall, 3.3mm wide and 0.75mm below the top of the switch. The horizontal position can be found by aligning the horizontal center of the costar slot with those specified here:
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions
Thank you. I was using the link you sent me as the costar spec for the 2u stabilizer. I was thinking that I would do exactly what you said for the other space bar compatibility. I am building the spacebar cutout so it is parameterized so I can just specify the centers for where the stabs should be and it will create the cutout. I think I have everything I need to finish the spacebar drawing (for symmetrical spacebars anyway). Thx...
Post by: swill on Tue, 16 December 2014, 19:08:34
I have built 4 different 2 unit stabilizer cutouts, but I think I will default to the one which I have created from scratch. My 2 unit stabilizer is exactly to the cherry spec with a slight modification to the cutout in the center vertical axis of the stabilizers to support the costar stabilizer. I will obviously get a test plate cut before letting people go into major production with this tool to ensure all my cutouts work as well as I expect. My space bar cutouts are also exactly to cherry specs with the same modification as the 2 unit stabs for costar support.
Here are the supported center stem stabilizers (numbers represent keycap size in units of 19.05mm):
2, 3, 4, 4.5, 5.5, 6.25 (50mm), 7 (57.15mm), 8, 9, 10
Here is an image of the different drawings on a sample plate:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/spacebars.png)
Let me know if you have any feedback. I will begin working on the actual logic to build the plates now that I have all of the different types of key cutouts accounted for. Yes, I know I am missing ISO support. You will have to live with just ANSI for the first iteration...
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 17 December 2014, 00:17:10
Post by: swill on Thu, 18 December 2014, 22:04:17
I had previously designed the following layout which I would like to build using Melvang's awesome Enabler PCBs (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57511.msg1307749#msg1307749). I am currently calling this layout the 'swill60' since it is kind of my take on a 60% fixing all the things that I have trouble with in a true 60% (dedicated arrow keys and a dedicated `~ key) since I am a software developer. This whole project spawned from me wanting to build this plate, but I had no CAD skills and I did not want to bother anyone else with my problems.
Here is my swill60 layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/091af7581f5647094c35386ccdf55d0d):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60.png)
Note: All of the keys in this layout are relatively common with the only ones that could be a bit tricky to get would be the two shift keys. I have seen many sets with those shift keys as options though, so I am not concerned about that.
The raw data for this layout is as follows (all generated by the online tool).
Code: [Select]
["Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Control","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
["Fn",{w:1.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{w:1.75},"Shift"],
[{x:0.625},"~\n`","Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt","←","↓","→"]
My current code takes the raw data above and generates the following plate cad drawings.
Standard square switch openings with the plate edge flush to the edge of the keycaps:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_proto_1.png)
Openable MX and Alps compatible switch openings with the plate protruding 5mm out on all sides for sandwich mounting:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_proto_2.png)
Openable MX switch openings with the plate protruding 5mm out on all sides for sandwich mounting:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_proto_3.png)
These 3 variations were created by simply changing the variable for which switch opening to use (currently 4 types supported) as well as the x and y plate padding. All of these options will be available in my web UI once I get that far. You will also notice that I already support x offsets in rows (notice the bottom row). I also support 4 different 2 unit stabilizer cutouts, but I may not expose them all as some of them will hopefully be deprecated by my latest drawings.
Current Limitations:
- So far I only support layouts with caps that are 1 unit tall.
- I am not adding mounting holes of any kind yet.
All in all, I am pretty pleased with the progress so far. This first prototype of the code proves to me that the idea is sound and is workable. Supporting variable height/shaped keys will likely be a bit challenging, so that will probably wait for a little while (sorry ISO users).
Please feel free to let me know if you have feedback.
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 18 December 2014, 22:12:47
Not that I personally am worried about it but it is a thought that very well could come up in the future.
Also, do you have plans for the additional layers for a sandwich style case planned in the future?
Post by: swill on Thu, 18 December 2014, 23:48:03
Just wondering but what sort of user agreement would you have as far as making profit using your tool?
Not that I personally am worried about it but it is a thought that very well could come up in the future.
Also, do you have plans for the additional layers for a sandwich style case planned in the future?
That is a good question. To be quite honest, I was just planning to open source it and let people use it without restrictions. In this type of community there is often a fine line between profitable or not, so I don't want to have a user agreement in place that will tip that balance in the wrong direction. That is a really hard question and to be honest I have not really thought about it. What I would probably do is put a 'donate' button up on the site with the tool. I would ask that if people are using the tool for commercial reasons they consider donating.
Its funny because everyone who I have talked to about this project (outside of the keyboard community) have asked me right away, "how do you plan to monetize it". I probably should have expected this to be asked. :) The reality though is that I am doing this mainly as a community service. This community is full of builders and tinkerers who have good ideas. I like to do what I can to enable builders because we all benefit from their ideas and hard work. The main purpose of the tool is to lower the bar for builders to prototype and progress their ideas without having to learn/master CAD.
Do you (or anyone really) have any suggestions on this topic? Is there any sort of commonly accepted approach for this sort of thing that seems to work pretty well? Something like Creative Commons comes to mind, but I have only ever seen that associated to art and photography and such.
As for additional layers. Yes, I thought about that tonight. I will tackle that when I automate the placement of the sandwich screw holes. It will be super easy to do, so yes you can expect that. It is probably 5-10 lines of code to add that support (once the screw hole placement code is in place).
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 19 December 2014, 00:11:51
Just wondering but what sort of user agreement would you have as far as making profit using your tool?
Not that I personally am worried about it but it is a thought that very well could come up in the future.
Also, do you have plans for the additional layers for a sandwich style case planned in the future?
That is a good question. To be quite honest, I was just planning to open source it and let people use it without restrictions. In this type of community there is often a fine line between profitable or not, so I don't want to have a user agreement in place that will tip that balance in the wrong direction. That is a really hard question and to be honest I have not really thought about it. What I would probably do is put a 'donate' button up on the site with the tool. I would ask that if people are using the tool for commercial reasons they consider donating.
Its funny because everyone who I have talked to about this project (outside of the keyboard community) have asked me right away, "how do you plan to monetize it". I probably should have expected this to be asked. :) The reality though is that I am doing this mainly as a community service. This community is full of builders and tinkerers who have good ideas. I like to do what I can to enable builders because we all benefit from their ideas and hard work. The main purpose of the tool is to lower the bar for builders to prototype and progress their ideas without having to learn/master CAD.
Do you (or anyone really) have any suggestions on this topic? Is there any sort of commonly accepted approach for this sort of thing that seems to work pretty well? Something like Creative Commons comes to mind, but I have only ever seen that associated to art and photography and such.
As for additional layers. Yes, I thought about that tonight. I will tackle that when I automate the placement of the sandwich screw holes. It will be super easy to do, so yes you can expect that. It is probably 5-10 lines of code to add that support (once the screw hole placement code is in place).
I hope you didn't think I was sounding to materialistic. But I am just seeing this as a potential issue for the future. Say Bigbluesaw.com sees this and wants to imbed the source into their website. BAM they would be makin a killing off of us. Or any shop with a laser or waterjet for that matter.
i think I would suggest looking up the technical differences between the different open source license options. The differences between what you can and can't do varies quite a bit.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 19 December 2014, 03:34:31
"how do you plan to monetize it". If you need more money there are better ways to get it and you can use this as an example of your skills. If people see that and give you a raise / new job then it'll be like money to you. CC-BY also ensures your name gets out there which is always a bonus.
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 19 December 2014, 04:27:33
Sorry for the rant. The tool looks great. Perhaps an option to have round corners and specify radius.
Post by: swill on Fri, 19 December 2014, 09:38:07
I hope you didn't think I was sounding to materialistic. But I am just seeing this as a potential issue for the future. Say Bigbluesaw.com sees this and wants to imbed the source into their website. BAM they would be makin a killing off of us. Or any shop with a laser or waterjet for that matter.
i think I would suggest looking up the technical differences between the different open source license options. The differences between what you can and can't do varies quite a bit.
Not at all. I really appreciate you asking the question and raising it as a concern. You have a very good point that my good intentions could be abused if we don't put a little thought into protecting our intellectual property. I still want to open source the code and I want people in the community to be able to use it or contribute without feeling hampered by a license, but I also don't want our work to be abused by others...
Post by: swill on Fri, 19 December 2014, 09:38:35
I recommend CC-BY or CC-BY-NC[-ND] if you're really paranoid about people making money off you.
"how do you plan to monetize it". If you need more money there are better ways to get it and you can use this as an example of your skills. If people see that and give you a raise / new job then it'll be like money to you. CC-BY also ensures your name gets out there which is always a bonus.
Thanks, I will look into those...
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 19 December 2014, 09:54:36
"how do you plan to monetize it"? I hate that question, every time I build something, others around me ask this question, be it a module for an existing web solution like XenForo or a keyboard related hobby. Can't a person just do something out of interest without any monetary benefit in mind.
Sorry for the rant. The tool looks great. Perhaps an option to have round corners and specify radius.
I completely agree with your sentiments. If you want to monetize it that is fine but take it to the full masses rather than just keep it bottled up here in the community. I just hate when I explain something that I am working on and the first thing people ask me is how much money I am going to make off it.
I hope you didn't think I was sounding to materialistic. But I am just seeing this as a potential issue for the future. Say Bigbluesaw.com sees this and wants to imbed the source into their website. BAM they would be makin a killing off of us. Or any shop with a laser or waterjet for that matter.
i think I would suggest looking up the technical differences between the different open source license options. The differences between what you can and can't do varies quite a bit.
Not at all. I really appreciate you asking the question and raising it as a concern. You have a very good point that my good intentions could be abused if we don't put a little thought into protecting our intellectual property. I still want to open source the code and I want people in the community to be able to use it or contribute without feeling hampered by a license, but I also don't want our work to be abused by others...
Excellent we are at least on the same page here. I just don't know enough about the details of open source licences to know which to apply.
Post by: swill on Fri, 19 December 2014, 09:56:51
"how do you plan to monetize it"? I hate that question, every time I build something, others around me ask this question, be it a module for an existing web solution like XenForo or a keyboard related hobby. Can't a person just do something out of interest without any monetary benefit in mind.
Sorry for the rant. The tool looks great. Perhaps an option to have round corners and specify radius.
Haha... Don't apologize for that. :) That was hardly a rant at all. I know where you are coming from though. Everyone seems to be so obsessed with squeezing every ounce of profitability out of every idea. What happened to the sense of community and doing things for the greater good? My own little rant; I grew up in a very challenging environment where everyone had to pitch in and look out for the needs of the people around them just so everyone survived. That whole concepts seems to be lost on society nowadays. It makes me sad. There is nothing more rewarding than helping someone who needs help without expecting anything in return.
Back on topic. Yes, I like the idea of adding rounded corners and letting the user specify the radius. I will work on that when I do the sandwich mount holes. I have to admit that I don't actually know how to code that yet. It is easy for me to do straight lines between points because I can just use the polyline concept, but I have not tried to do any sort of arc yet. I will have to learn how to code arcs to add that.
For example, this is how I draw the switch cutout for the MX + Alps compatible switch type:
Code: [Select]
points = [
(7,-7), (7,-6), (7.8,-6), (7.8,-2.9), (7,-2.9), (7,2.9), (7.8,2.9), (7.8,6), (7,6), (7,7), (-7,7),
(-7,6), (-7.8,6), (-7.8,2.9), (-7,2.9), (-7,-2.9), (-7.8,-2.9), (-7.8,-6), (-7,-6), (-7,-7), (7,-7)
]
p = p.polyline(points).cutThruAll()
I will research that on the train on my way home tonight. It makes sense that I give a full solution for the sandwich case before moving on to other features since that makes it actually usable for people and it is the simplest to build for me. Once I start trying to support different case mount holes, things are going to get a lot more tricky, so it will be nice if I have a working tool for prototypers before I try to solve that bigger problem.
BTW, pretty much all of my cutouts are my own design because I was trying to improve on existing designs as I built them because I had to draw them from scratch anyway. I need to get a plate cut with all of the different components on it so I can test to make sure that all of my switch and stabilizer cutouts work as well as I am hoping. Should I just try to find a local laser or plasma shop for this? Do you guys have any suggestions for how I should approach this? I have never done that before...
Post by: swill on Fri, 19 December 2014, 22:59:49
I added the feature that MOZ requested of being able to round the corners of the plate.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_proto_4.png)
I also did a bit of a code cleanup and put everything into a class to simplify the inner workings (now that I know things work for the most part).
Code: [Select]
# input is still manually copied from keyboard-layout-editor.com...
input_str = """["Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Control","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
["Fn",{w:1.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{w:1.75},"Shift"],
[{x:0.625},"~\n`","Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt","←","↓","→"]"""
p = Plate() # init the plate we will be working on.
p.set_x_pad(5) # pad the left and right of the plate with an extra 5mm of space beyond the keycaps.
p.set_y_pad(5) # pad the top and bottom of the plate with an extra 5mm of space beyond the keycaps.
p.set_fillet(5) # round the corners of the plate with a 5mm radius.
p.draw(input_str) # draw the plate based on the input
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 20 December 2014, 00:08:27
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 09:59:26
Very nice work. Just please let us know when you have the mount holes thing figured out please. I want to build a set of plates for the wifes GH36 and this would be a great way to test the software.Sounds good. I will work on the two things you will need.
1. Mount holes (just sandwich to start with)
2. 1unit vertical keys (with stabs if applicable). ISO support will wait for a little while still.
I think that is all we will need to start prototyping. Am I missing anything?
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 20 December 2014, 10:04:45
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 10:10:15
Would you be able to just generate a top casing based on negative space that the caps won't occupy?Sorry, I don't think I understood your question. Can you give me a bit more detail on what you are looking for?
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 20 December 2014, 10:13:16
Would you be able to just generate a top casing based on negative space that the caps won't occupy?Sorry, I don't think I understood your question. Can you give me a bit more detail on what you are looking for?
By taking the space in between the switches, that is if there is any (like say on a TLK above where the arrow keys are), would you be able to use those dimensions to cut out a top casing?
This would basically be the top part of a case that shrouds the switches which you would see most commonly used elsewhere.
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 11:00:52
Would you be able to just generate a top casing based on negative space that the caps won't occupy?Sorry, I don't think I understood your question. Can you give me a bit more detail on what you are looking for?
By taking the space in between the switches, that is if there is any (like say on a TLK above where the arrow keys are), would you be able to use those dimensions to cut out a top casing?
This would basically be the top part of a case that shrouds the switches which you would see most commonly used elsewhere.
Oh. I now understand what you are asking. Yes, I should be able to do that without too much issue. Thanks for clarifying. :)
The only thing that I think I would not be able to offer (natively based on the data I have) is the ability to cut out a controller area if you needed a controller cutout in the plate and then put a layer (like you just described) over it. I don't have any details about controller sizing for a cutout in the layout. I basically support hand wired controllers or controllers that live on the bottom of the PCB. Make sense?
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 20 December 2014, 12:03:51
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 12:31:54
Do you know how you will code the mount holes for the sandwitch layer? I have an idea, but I'm on my phone, once I am on my system, I'll lay it out.Please offer suggestions. I am working some algorithms out in my head, but I have not put anything down on paper yet.
I would like to give control of:
- size of hole
- number of holes
My assumptions:
- minimum of 4 holes which will go in the corners
- the holes will be centered in the x and y padding (which is already configurable)
First shot at writing down an algorithm.
First 4 holes are located in the corners. The remaining holes are placed evenly(?) around the board. This will consider the ratio of board length to width as well as total perimeter length needing to be secured. I need to sit down with some paper and a pencil to hash out the details of how this algorithm is going to work exactly, but that is the idea.
Ideas? Thoughts?
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 12:51:46
What about water jet? Is it precise enough?
What other options are there. CNC has I set of challenges I can not currently handle. I will let nudecnc sort out the details there.
Other ideas?
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 20 December 2014, 13:51:00
What is the ideal way to get plates cut? I think laser or plasma cutting is common (given what I have seen). What precision can they offer with aluminum or steel? I know there can be some issues with warping and such due to the heat in processing.
What about water jet? Is it precise enough?
What other options are there. CNC has I set of challenges I can not currently handle. I will let nudecnc sort out the details there.
Other ideas?
Laser and water jet are the most common with laser being more common here from what I have seen probably due to being more popular equipment.
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 20 December 2014, 15:27:35
Would you be able to just generate a top casing based on negative space that the caps won't occupy?Sorry, I don't think I understood your question. Can you give me a bit more detail on what you are looking for?
By taking the space in between the switches, that is if there is any (like say on a TLK above where the arrow keys are), would you be able to use those dimensions to cut out a top casing?
This would basically be the top part of a case that shrouds the switches which you would see most commonly used elsewhere.
Oh. I now understand what you are asking. Yes, I should be able to do that without too much issue. Thanks for clarifying. :)
The only thing that I think I would not be able to offer (natively based on the data I have) is the ability to cut out a controller area if you needed a controller cutout in the plate and then put a layer (like you just described) over it. I don't have any details about controller sizing for a cutout in the layout. I basically support hand wired controllers or controllers that live on the bottom of the PCB. Make sense?
That's cool. I honestly think bottom mounted controllers would be more relevant for hand wiring anyway.
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 17:13:59
You have any idea what kind of tolerances they can hit?What is the ideal way to get plates cut? I think laser or plasma cutting is common (given what I have seen). What precision can they offer with aluminum or steel? I know there can be some issues with warping and such due to the heat in processing.
What about water jet? Is it precise enough?
What other options are there. CNC has I set of challenges I can not currently handle. I will let nudecnc sort out the details there.
Other ideas?
Laser and water jet are the most common with laser being more common here from what I have seen probably due to being more popular equipment.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 20 December 2014, 20:20:30
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 December 2014, 22:54:49
I am sure there is an easier and more concise way to write this logic, but for some reason I could not get my head around it. So this code basically solves the problem by looping through the holes that need to be placed and it determines if the hole should be placed on the x or y side. keep in mind that there are actually two x and two y sides. Also keep in mind that the first 4 holes are always placed in the corners.
Once we know the number of holes we are putting on each side, it is very easy to space them evenly, so that logic is not present in this code.
Code: [Select]
#!/usr/bin/env python
"""
Usage:
holes.py --x=<x> --y=<y> --holes=<holes>
holes.py (-h | --help)
"""
from docopt import docopt
args = docopt(__doc__)
if __name__ == "__main__":
holes = int(args['--holes'])
if holes % 2 == 0 and holes >= 4: # holes needs to be even and the first 4 are put in the corners
x = float(args['--x']) # x length
y = float(args['--y']) # y length
_x = 0 # number of holes on each x side (not counting the corner holes)
_y = 0 # number of holes on each y side (not counting the corner holes)
free = (holes-4)/2 # number of free holes to be placed on either x or y sides
for f in range(free): # loop through the available holes and place them
if x/(_x+1) == y/(_y+1): # if equal, add the hole to the longer side
if x >= y: # if x and y are equal, add the extra hole to the x side
_x += 1
else:
_y += 1
elif x/(_x+1) > y/(_y+1):
_x += 1
else:
_y += 1
print("%s holes on 'x' over %smm" % (_x, x))
print("%s holes on 'y' over %smm" % (_y, y))
print("plus one hole in each corner\n")
else:
print("'--holes' needs to be an even number greater than or equal to 4")
Here is some example output:
Code: [Select]
$ ./holes.py --x=400 --y=100 --holes=2
'--holes' needs to be an even number greater than or equal to 4
$ ./holes.py --x=400 --y=100 --holes=4
0 holes on 'x' over 400.0mm
0 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=400 --y=100 --holes=12
4 holes on 'x' over 400.0mm
0 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=400 --y=100 --holes=14
4 holes on 'x' over 400.0mm
1 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=200 --y=100 --holes=12
3 holes on 'x' over 200.0mm
1 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=200 --y=100 --holes=14
4 holes on 'x' over 200.0mm
1 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=200 --y=100 --holes=16
4 holes on 'x' over 200.0mm
2 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
$ ./holes.py --x=200 --y=100 --holes=36
11 holes on 'x' over 200.0mm
5 holes on 'y' over 100.0mm
plus one hole in each corner
Let me know if I am just having a super brain fart day and there is a much simpler way to solve this. Haha...
I should be able to get a good start on the code to actually add the holes to the plate tomorrow. Cheers...
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 20 December 2014, 23:48:58
Mkawa could give you a better answer on tolerances as he has had a lot more dealings with fab shops in that regard. The one shop I was talking to quoted me at .005" in 16ga stainless. For waterjet I am not sure what they can hit for tolerances. I do know that laser has a smaller kerf in general than wj. Laser is more expensive per hour on machine time but cuts much faster than wj.
depends on the shop of course, but IIRC the only issue with WC is finding a place taht has one with tight enough tolerances. You need relatively good to get cherry switches to fit which is why most are lasered.
Quote
# input is still manually copied from keyboard-layout-editor.com...
TBH I am okay with that, It's not that hard to do and half the time I manually input into "raw data" anyway. much faster. I have no problem copypasta-ing a layout from there into your tool and pressing the :go: button.
But I'm more worried about the result. THe 5 seconds of extra time investiture it'll take for me to copypaste is nothing compared with the time it'd take to build a plate layout on my own.
Post by: swill on Sun, 21 December 2014, 00:10:54
Mkawa could give you a better answer on tolerances as he has had a lot more dealings with fab shops in that regard. The one shop I was talking to quoted me at .005" in 16ga stainless. For waterjet I am not sure what they can hit for tolerances. I do know that laser has a smaller kerf in general than wj. Laser is more expensive per hour on machine time but cuts much faster than wj.
depends on the shop of course, but IIRC the only issue with WC is finding a place taht has one with tight enough tolerances. You need relatively good to get cherry switches to fit which is why most are lasered.Quote# input is still manually copied from keyboard-layout-editor.com...
TBH I am okay with that, It's not that hard to do and half the time I manually input into "raw data" anyway. much faster. I have no problem copypasta-ing a layout from there into your tool and pressing the :go: button.
But I'm more worried about the result. THe 5 seconds of extra time investiture it'll take for me to copypaste is nothing compared with the time it'd take to build a plate layout on my own.
Re: Waterjet vs Laser cutting; I am looking at my options here in montreal and I will get quotes from a couple shops to see what I can get done. Thanks for the answer... :)
Re: Copy and Paste; That is simply because I have not gotten around to supporting the permalink url yet. I plan to offer both options, but I have to start somewhere. I am focusing on shortest path to something useful. Once I have that and have tested all of my switch cutouts, it will be a legitimate tool that people can start using. I will then start to work on some of the more edge cases, nice to have or harder features.
All a work in progress... :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 00:06:24
I now officially support the sandwich case holes in the plate. I still have not started working on building the other layers of the sandwich case, but I may do that next as it is pretty relevant to this addition.
This first render is using 6mm of space around the board outside the caps with a 3mm fillet on the corners. It has 14 holes that are 2mm in diameter. Each hole is about 5cm apart.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_holes_1.png)
This second render is more of the 'bomb proof' version. In this render I have 8mm of space outside the keycaps all the way around the board with a 4mm fillet on the corners. I am using 30 holes that are 3mm in diameter and about 2.5cm apart.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/swill60_holes_2.png)
Here is the code to generate the second render to give you an idea how this is being configured...
Code: [Select]
input_str = """["Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Control","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
["Fn",{w:1.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{w:1.75},"Shift"],
[{x:0.625},"~\n`","Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt","←","↓","→"]"""
p = Plate() # init the plate
p.set_x_pad(8) # 8mm of extra space on the top and bottom
p.set_y_pad(8) # 8mm of extra space on the left and right
p.set_fillet(4) # 4mm fillet on the corners of the plate
p.set_case_holes(30, 3) # draw 30 holes with a 3mm diameter
p.draw(input_str) # do magic!!! :)
Starting to feel like we are getting there. I still need to finish the other layers of the case to let people build a whole case with the tool. That was not my original goal, but it makes total sense to do it, so why not... Once I do that, the next big hurdle for this to be 'game ready' is adding support for vertical keys (as well as stabilizing them). If we are lucky I will get there by new years... :) Oh and I need to get a sample plate cut so I can verify all my cutouts work as expected...
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 13:33:58
Here are the available extensions that I can export as:
ast, bms, brep, brp, csg, csv, dae, dat, dwg, dxf, html, ifc, iges, igs, inp, iv, med, obj, oca, off, pdf, ply, poly, scad, step, stl, stp, svg, unv, vrml, wrl, wrl.gz, wrz
For example, the last render in the previous post would produce the attached files...
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 22 December 2014, 14:48:35
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 14:59:58
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 22 December 2014, 15:03:56
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Post by: joey on Mon, 22 December 2014, 16:06:20
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutesIs it multithreaded? .. and is it actually using that much RAM?
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 16:12:35
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Not likely since FreeCAD is a dependency and it is a total PITA to setup and get working. I am actually installing this on a server right now so once it is setup and working correctly I can just snapshot the VM and not have to deal with the setup again if I have to move the box or give it more resources.
I am working on exposing the controls through a web UI right now which will allow you to download the resulting cad files that are created. Basically you will specify your layout (or a enter the permalink to the keyboard-layout-editor.com layout) and set a bunch of things like type of switch, mount holes, padding, etc, etc, and then you will hit a button something like 'draw cad' and it will process for a couple minutes and it will give you links to download the cad files as well as show you a preview of the cad. The preview is because I expect that you may realize once it is generated that you might want different size padding or that sort of thing and instead of making you enter everything again, you can just tweak the settings and regenerate and it will then show you the result as well as give you the download links for the updated run. Thats the idea anyway...
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 16:15:36
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutesIs it multithreaded? .. and is it actually using that much RAM?
No it is currently not multithreaded. Right now I am just making it work. I am giving it a lot of resources because I have not profiled it or anything yet so I am just throwing resources at it right now to see if it speeds things up. I work at a cloud computing company, so I have lots of resources at my fingertips for free, so I have the luxury of being able to do that. :) Once I get the functionality in place I will start to worry about performance and such. For now I just want to focus on shortest path to something useful...
Post by: joey on Mon, 22 December 2014, 17:08:50
Is it multithreaded? .. and is it actually using that much RAM?
No it is currently not multithreaded. Right now I am just making it work. I am giving it a lot of resources because I have not profiled it or anything yet so I am just throwing resources at it right now to see if it speeds things up.
Just wondering :)
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Not likely since FreeCAD is a dependency and it is a total PITA to setup and get working. I am actually installing this on a server right now so once it is setup and working correctly I can just snapshot the VM and not have to deal with the setup again if I have to move the box or give it more resources.
I am working on exposing the controls through a web UI right now which will allow you to download the resulting cad files that are created. Basically you will specify your layout (or a enter the permalink to the keyboard-layout-editor.com layout) and set a bunch of things like type of switch, mount holes, padding, etc, etc, and then you will hit a button something like 'draw cad' and it will process for a couple minutes and it will give you links to download the cad files as well as show you a preview of the cad. The preview is because I expect that you may realize once it is generated that you might want different size padding or that sort of thing and instead of making you enter everything again, you can just tweak the settings and regenerate and it will then show you the result as well as give you the download links for the updated run. Thats the idea anyway...
Have you looked at generating .dxf or other types directly?
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 17:14:46
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Not likely since FreeCAD is a dependency and it is a total PITA to setup and get working. I am actually installing this on a server right now so once it is setup and working correctly I can just snapshot the VM and not have to deal with the setup again if I have to move the box or give it more resources.
I am working on exposing the controls through a web UI right now which will allow you to download the resulting cad files that are created. Basically you will specify your layout (or a enter the permalink to the keyboard-layout-editor.com layout) and set a bunch of things like type of switch, mount holes, padding, etc, etc, and then you will hit a button something like 'draw cad' and it will process for a couple minutes and it will give you links to download the cad files as well as show you a preview of the cad. The preview is because I expect that you may realize once it is generated that you might want different size padding or that sort of thing and instead of making you enter everything again, you can just tweak the settings and regenerate and it will then show you the result as well as give you the download links for the updated run. Thats the idea anyway...
Have you looked at generating .dxf or other types directly?
Yes, the tool currently exports into the following 3 formats; SVG, DFX and DWG. I posted some example exports about 7-10 posts ago. I also listed other export formats which are 'theoretically' possible. Let me know if there are others in that list that you think would be valuable to export.
Post by: joey on Mon, 22 December 2014, 18:41:35
Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them. :P Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Not likely since FreeCAD is a dependency and it is a total PITA to setup and get working. I am actually installing this on a server right now so once it is setup and working correctly I can just snapshot the VM and not have to deal with the setup again if I have to move the box or give it more resources.
I am working on exposing the controls through a web UI right now which will allow you to download the resulting cad files that are created. Basically you will specify your layout (or a enter the permalink to the keyboard-layout-editor.com layout) and set a bunch of things like type of switch, mount holes, padding, etc, etc, and then you will hit a button something like 'draw cad' and it will process for a couple minutes and it will give you links to download the cad files as well as show you a preview of the cad. The preview is because I expect that you may realize once it is generated that you might want different size padding or that sort of thing and instead of making you enter everything again, you can just tweak the settings and regenerate and it will then show you the result as well as give you the download links for the updated run. Thats the idea anyway...
Have you looked at generating .dxf or other types directly?
Yes, the tool currently exports into the following 3 formats; SVG, DFX and DWG. I posted some example exports about 7-10 posts ago. I also listed other export formats which are 'theoretically' possible. Let me know if there are others in that list that you think would be valuable to export.
Sorry, I meant generating dxf without going via FreeCAD.
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 December 2014, 19:19:15
How? I am using the fact that freecad is built on python and has an accessible API which I can code against. Everything about this tool is automated. Basically it can parse any layout (in theory, not finished) and build the corresponding cad file(s). How else would I do this? Do you know of other options for programmatically building cad that may be better?Those are the big three and should suffice.
Cool, thanks... On my laptop I have dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of ram to the system running this and it is taking about 2 minutes to build that relatively simple layout. I am spinning up a new machine in our cloud which has 4 cores and 16GB of ram to start running my code on that. Hopefully that will reduce the build time to something closer to a minute. I think people won't mind waiting for a minute or two to get everything drawn for them.Doesn't mean I don't want to try to speed it up though...
Any chance there would be a possibility for a downloadable app? Granted it would probably need to support 3 major OS's. Just curious.
Not likely since FreeCAD is a dependency and it is a total PITA to setup and get working. I am actually installing this on a server right now so once it is setup and working correctly I can just snapshot the VM and not have to deal with the setup again if I have to move the box or give it more resources.
I am working on exposing the controls through a web UI right now which will allow you to download the resulting cad files that are created. Basically you will specify your layout (or a enter the permalink to the keyboard-layout-editor.com layout) and set a bunch of things like type of switch, mount holes, padding, etc, etc, and then you will hit a button something like 'draw cad' and it will process for a couple minutes and it will give you links to download the cad files as well as show you a preview of the cad. The preview is because I expect that you may realize once it is generated that you might want different size padding or that sort of thing and instead of making you enter everything again, you can just tweak the settings and regenerate and it will then show you the result as well as give you the download links for the updated run. Thats the idea anyway...
Have you looked at generating .dxf or other types directly?
Yes, the tool currently exports into the following 3 formats; SVG, DFX and DWG. I posted some example exports about 7-10 posts ago. I also listed other export formats which are 'theoretically' possible. Let me know if there are others in that list that you think would be valuable to export.
Sorry, I meant generating dxf without going via FreeCAD.
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 23 December 2014, 01:06:44
Post by: joey on Tue, 23 December 2014, 05:45:00
I haven't looked, but I was assuming there might be sosom Python libraries for generating dxf.Sorry, I meant generating dxf without going via FreeCAD.How? I am using the fact that freecad is built on python and has an accessible API which I can code against. Everything about this tool is automated. Basically it can parse any layout (in theory, not finished) and build the corresponding cad file(s). How else would I do this? Do you know of other options for programmatically building cad that may be better?
Just a thought..
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 December 2014, 07:50:41
I think you can generate SVG files much like html files, by printing the drawing out to a file on the server and then allowing the user to download it.Yes. SVG is easier to generate. DXF and DWG are harder because you need special libs to export them.
Last night I spent like 3-4 hours on the exporting stuff and I am still not where I want to be. The export depended on the UI libs in freecad in my old env, but now that I am running this on a server I don't have that UI env. I will sort it out, but it is being a pita. I may have to export to svg and then convert the file to dfx and dwg. We will see...
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 23 December 2014, 08:18:51
Post by: engicoder on Tue, 23 December 2014, 17:37:49
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 December 2014, 18:12:24
DWG is such an ugly beast. Its alive. It mutates constantly. The Open Design Alliance (http://www.opendesign.com/) intended to create a library to give "open" access to read and create DWG files (now called Teigha)...but somewhere along the line "open" became "for members" and the cheapest membership is $250 to join and $100 a year. There are a few other libraries of decent quality, but non are free...that I know of.
Interesting, thanks for the info. I am actually using some teigha libs which integrate into freecad. Apparently freecad has some not-so-pythonic practices going on though because I have to have the GUI installed to use those libs (even though everything is supposed to be able to be run through the core interpreter).
Unfortunately I have spent like 6-8 hours working on getting things to work (aka - export) again since I moved the code to my server and off my Ubuntu VM (with xorg). I will spend a few more hours trying to make it work natively, after that I will explore exporting to something like STEP and then converting to the other types with another tool.
Anyone know what formats are good 'transitional' formats which are good for converting to other formats? I know that STL is a lossy format, so that is out right away. I am pretty sure that I can easily export to STEP or BREP, but I don't know cad formats that well. I am totally a CAD noob (which is probably why I am building this tool since I am more comfortable in code and the command line). :). I'm learning slowly.
Thanks to everyone who has been active in this process, your feedback and thoughts are really appreciated.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 23 December 2014, 20:44:37
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 December 2014, 22:05:23
Just for reference but for the padding, what does it measure from? Would it be possible to allow just to be able to enter edge to edge dimensions and just have the tool center the stuff inside those dimensions? The reason I ask is I want to make a plate and stuff for the wifes GH36 and it will be very easy for me to get the outside dimensions and not have to do maths to figure "padding".
After I get the first iteration built where you can specify a padding and have mount holes for the sandwich case drilled in that space, I will then start working on exactly what you just specified. I am going to have to do this anyway because I want to support existing cases. In order to support existing cases, I have to work within the dimensions of those cases and their mount holes. That is very much on my radar and is something I will have to tackle soon, but I have not gotten around to it yet. Hopefully I can really progress this software over the holidays, we will see...
I should call the local laser shops tomorrow and see what my lead time and cost will be for getting a simple plate cut with all my different cutouts on it so I can validate that all my cutouts work before I release this into the wild. I wanted to get everything drawn for my first case so I could get it cut at the same time (hoping everything works as expected) because it will bring down the cost if I get it cut at the same time. I think I will probably target the first week or so of january for getting prototypes cut (since I don't think its realistic to get stuff done before then due to the holidays). Hopefully I can be at the point where I can implement what you are looking for and test it on a 60% plate when I get the prototypes cut so I can validate it against another hammer plate I have here...
I was hoping to be a bit farther along to be honest, I had a really good run there for a bit, but now I have been stalled for a few days on the export stuff now that I moved from a desktop ubuntu setup to a server ubuntu setup. Apparently the SVG, DWG and DFX export libraries depend on global variables that are set in the GUI runtime (which is ****ing retarded), so they do not work now that I have moved to my server. I have successfully gotten the BREP and IGES formats to export from the server environment, so I may be getting closer to getting out of the woods. I am learning all this CAD stuff, but the BREP format seems to be relatively promising based on how it builds the objects. I still have not checked to see if there is an easy way to convert a BREP file to an SVG, DFX or DWG yet...
I am slowly hashing my way through this crap. I apologize for being a bit slow to get something out that you guys can play with. Getting this working on my server is the first step because then it is a much smaller step to get something served over HTTP for you guys to start messing with. I need exporting to be working in a way I am happy with first though...
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 December 2014, 22:12:15
Just for reference but for the padding, what does it measure from? Would it be possible to allow just to be able to enter edge to edge dimensions and just have the tool center the stuff inside those dimensions? The reason I ask is I want to make a plate and stuff for the wifes GH36 and it will be very easy for me to get the outside dimensions and not have to do maths to figure "padding".
I just realized that I did not answer your question. I calculate each switch as being 19.05mm square. Obviously, the switch hole itself is only 14mm square, so it is centered in that 19.05mm space. I am using the 19.05mm size as the edges of my plate if there is zero padding. This means that there is about 2.5mm of space between the switch opening and the edge of the plate when you select zero padding (obviously changes a bit depending on the switch opening you select since the ability to open the switch eats into that space). Make sense?
I just checked a couple keycaps with a caliper. An SA cap is 18.3mm square and a GMK cap is 18.2mm square, so they are pretty consistent. So with a padding of zero, the edge of the plate will be about 0.35mm outside of the edge of the keycap. So just looking at my board here, it looks like the edge will be pretty much in line with the edge of the angle produced by an SA keycap. Not sure if any of that is helpful for you...
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 December 2014, 22:22:04
Theoretically FreeCAD supports the following formats, however the following modules do not seem to work from the command line without the GUI; importDXF, FreeCADGui, importSVG. I have not tested many, but I know that all of the 'Part' formats export fine...
Code: [Select]
# EXPORT FORMATS
# 'med': 'Fem'
# 'inp': 'Fem'
# 'scad': 'exportCSG'
# 'poly': 'convert2TetGen'
# 'brp': 'Part'
# 'dxf': 'importDXF'
# 'igs': 'Part'
# 'oca': 'importOCA'
# 'csg': 'exportCSG'
# 'off': 'Mesh'
# 'html': 'importWebGL'
# 'wrl.gz': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'dwg': 'importDWG'
# 'csv': 'Spreadsheet'
# 'wrz': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'vrml': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'dae': 'importDAE'
# 'ast': 'Mesh'
# 'ply': 'Mesh'
# 'dat': 'Fem'
# 'bms': 'Mesh'
# 'step': 'ImportGui'
# 'iges': 'Part'
# 'iv': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'obj': ['Mesh', 'importOBJ']
# 'unv': 'Fem'
# 'stl': 'Mesh'
# 'svg': ['importSVG', 'FreeCADGui']
# 'stp': 'ImportGui'
# 'ifc': 'importIFC'
# 'pdf': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'wrl': 'FreeCADGui'
# 'brep': 'Part'
Edit: So I have been doing a bunch of testing tonight. I have been able to export using the following modules: Mesh, Part. I have been able to export the following formats (so far, I expect all the Mesh types to work): BRP (BREP), IGS (IGES), SCAD, STL, STP (STEP)
I am starting to feel like I am getting somewhere. Hopefully one of these formats will be easy to convert to an SVG and the other formats I am not able to export natively...
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 December 2014, 00:47:44
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 December 2014, 14:09:28
I have had some good success with the Threejs javascript library and have been able to export into a json format which gives a nice visual representation of the plate in the UI. Here are some screenshots to give you an idea. This is a perspective view, so you can see that the plate is 3D. You can rotate the plate and move it around as well as zoom all in the browser. I think this is a nice visualization for the generated plate and it seems to work pretty well.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
On the other hand, the export formats have been a total PITA. I have been able successfully export into a bunch of formats which work well in cad, however, they do not export with all of the components which make up the drawing, so they are not editable once they are imported into the cad software. If my tool works perfectly and the result is exactly what the end user wants, then fine, we dont have a problem. I suspect though that some people will use my tool as a starting point and they may want to make small modifications to the drawing after. If this is the case none of these formats will work. With all of these 'drawing as one object' formats, I have had pretty good success with the BREP or BRP format. It has been rock solid for me and seems to be a pretty standard format, so I will probably offer that format regardless. It exports quickly, it shows all the segments and anchor points even if they are not split out into their own tree, so it seems to be a pretty nice format to work with.
Here is a BRP format cad file which is pretty solid.
[attachimg=5]
And here is an example measurement in on this BRP model. All the anchor points and such work, so it is very easy to do measurements and that sort of thing...
[attachimg=6]
Luckily since FreeCAD and it supporting libraries are open source I have been able to have a poke through their code and have been able to 'fix' the issues with the SVG export and the DXF export for the most part. Neither of them are working as well as I would like unfortunately. The SVG will only import as a drawing instead of a geometry, so it is pretty useless in my opinion.
The DXF format imports correctly as a cad file, but for some reason it messes up "some" of the fillets. WTF? Why would it mess up some and not others? If I just export the drawing from the FreeCAD UI and reimport it does the same thing, so something is messed up with the import/export functionality for this library. So close... :( Even still, it only imports as a final drawing, not with the tree of the different components that make up the drawing, so that is annoying...
[attachimg=4]
So long story short. I have not forgotten about this project, actually, I have spent WAY too much time on it recently. The exporting stuff is pretty frustrating if I am honest. I will probably just say 'enough with it' for now and just offer the BRP drawings to start with and we will go from there. I need to change the air a bit or I will get too frustrated with the project and that will not help me move things forward...
On the bright side, I have been working a lot on the web UI and should have something together soon. I have taken this opportunity to dig into Tornado a non-blocking IO python web framework. If this tool becomes popular I need to have something in place which will allow me to scale the processing across multiple cores as well as not block requests when the plates are being processed. Since all the code is in python I wanted to keep it in python (for now), so I figured I would give Tornado a shot. I like its approach and I have worked with these types of frameworks enough that I should be able to pick it up in a day or two.
Anyway, thats my status update for today. Don't tell my wife I am working over the holiday or she will have my head. :P
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 28 December 2014, 14:48:52
Regarding the export, I would really recommend figuring out when you can on how to export to SVG and DWG/DXF as a bare minimum as those are the two most popular, even if it is one single drawing and not in different components.
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 December 2014, 15:33:40
The visualizations are wicked!I know. Which is why I have been battling with this for almost 2 weeks now. :(
Regarding the export, I would really recommend figuring out when you can on how to export to SVG and DWG/DXF as a bare minimum as those are the two most popular, even if it is one single drawing and not in different components.
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 28 December 2014, 16:24:18
Give it a break for a while, enjoy the holidays, if you must work on this project, then work on the frontend as you have.
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 December 2014, 16:50:23
Hmmm. I've only just begun Python, so I don't know how much I can help. Are there other python developers here who could perhaps have a look.Ya. I am going to focus on the front end and getting everything in place. I can export about 6 or so types successfully, so I can always just start with that.
Give it a break for a while, enjoy the holidays, if you must work on this project, then work on the frontend as you have.
I am looking to see if I can find other cad related command line conversion tools. I think openscad has some command line conversion functionality and I can export to native scad format, so that might be a way for me to get the files in those formats.
I will move on for now and revisit it with a fresh set of eyes once everything else is in place.
Thanks for all your involvement and motivation, it helps. :)
Post by: joey on Sun, 28 December 2014, 17:09:08
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 December 2014, 23:43:44
Speaking of steps, here are the steps so far...
Step 1. Load the page and see what your options are...
[attachimg=1]
Step 2. Fill in the form according to the plate you want to generate and kick off the build...
[attachimg=2]
Step 3. View the resulting CAD drawing and download it... All of your settings will remain on the page, so if it is not perfect, you just expand the configure section, tweak the settings and rebuild...
[attachimg=3]
Yes, I know, I am only offering the BRP format for download right now. I will work on adding additional download formats once I have everything else working.
If you are curious, this plate is for this layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/091af7581f5647094c35386ccdf55d0d
I will be adding the drawings for the additional layers of the sandwich case as well, so the bottom plate as well as closed and open layers. An open layer is a layer that will allow a usb plug to go through the layer. The location and size will be configurable. You will need to determine how many of each layer you want to use for the sandwich case based on the thickness of the material and the look you are going for. More to come...
Slowly getting somewhere, let me know if you have feedback...
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:02:15
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:07:05
Is there going to be an option down the road to be able to input dimensions as decimal inches? While I do understand that the vast majority of the world deals with metric, there are still some of us that do not.
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:12:01
Post by: nubbinator on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:17:35
Post by: pober on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:40:17
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:44:44
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 30 December 2014, 01:13:27
Here's halverson's broken KMAC plate. Had he not got a new one, he may have found your tool useful to generate a file to bring to a local cutter.
(http://i.imgur.com/0dKVa.jpg)
I prefer steel plates anyway, so I'd replace it on a KMAC if I still had one.
UI looks great though! I am really impressed by the regular updates.
Will there be Alps support? If there is, you'll be my hero.I'm not a programmer, and I don't speak for swill, but I bet that once it's done, ALPS support would be easy to add.
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 30 December 2014, 01:22:23
Swill, UI looks very good, nice and simple.
Post by: byker on Tue, 30 December 2014, 01:27:25
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 30 December 2014, 01:28:28
I am loving how it has turned out so far!
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 30 December 2014, 03:11:48
Hype train! This is super cool because my school has a CNC machine that I could use to cut one.Ooh, that sounds sweet. All mine has is a 3d printer :))
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 30 December 2014, 03:14:20
We have 2 so I might try to print a plateHype train! This is super cool because my school has a CNC machine that I could use to cut one.Ooh, that sounds sweet. All mine has is a 3d printer :))
Post by: Evo_Spec on Tue, 30 December 2014, 03:31:05
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 07:59:58
Looks great. One suggestion, would be to add a note that the padding is extra space from the edge of the caps, not from the switch hole.
Is there going to be an option down the road to be able to input dimensions as decimal inches? While I do understand that the vast majority of the world deals with metric, there are still some of us that do not.
My tool is written only in metric. I may be able to take in decimal inches and then immediately convert them to metric and work from there. I had not thought of that. Yes, this is probably possible down the road.
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 08:03:08
Will there be Alps support? If there is, you'll be my hero.Yes, I hope to support alps. I already have one alps switch cutout available (the MX and alps compatible cutout). I do not yet have anything in place for stabilizing alps keys. I only have the MX stabilizers developed so far.
If you can get me specs for additional alps support, I will add it.
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 30 December 2014, 08:14:16
Maybe stupid question , but would the plate generated be notched ?
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 10:02:33
I think it would be nice to add areas to "remove outside" for making KMAC and skeldon plates and suchlike.
Here's halverson's broken KMAC plate. Had he not got a new one, he may have found your tool useful to generate a file to bring to a local cutter.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/0dKVa.jpg)
I prefer steel plates anyway, so I'd replace it on a KMAC if I still had one.
UI looks great though! I am really impressed by the regular updates.
This is a nice idea and I do have a concept in place that will help support this. What I am currently calling the "mount type", which I think I will rename to "case type", is a dropdown of different supported cases. The other options below will change based on the case selected. So for example the "poker" case you would not have the mount holes option because those options would be defined by the selected case.
The cases you are talking about will take a lot of work, but I can look into them once I have gotten the easier cases worked out.
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 10:05:39
Replying to keep track of the project and to thank swill .What do you mean by notched?
Maybe stupid question , but would the plate generated be notched ?
It is worth pointing out that I have 4 different switch cutout options drawn and you will be able to select which switch cutout you want to use. 3 of the 4 have cutouts for the switch top to be removed without desoldering.
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 30 December 2014, 10:24:13
I though notched meant top was removable without desoldering .Replying to keep track of the project and to thank swill .What do you mean by notched?
Maybe stupid question , but would the plate generated be notched ?
It is worth pointing out that I have 4 different switch cutout options drawn and you will be able to select which switch cutout you want to use. 3 of the 4 have cutouts for the switch top to be removed without desoldering.
Thanks for the answer , now I have some project in mind !
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 15:10:14
here is the relevant section...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 30 December 2014, 15:30:44
I though notched meant top was removable without desoldering .Replying to keep track of the project and to thank swill .What do you mean by notched?
Maybe stupid question , but would the plate generated be notched ?
It is worth pointing out that I have 4 different switch cutout options drawn and you will be able to select which switch cutout you want to use. 3 of the 4 have cutouts for the switch top to be removed without desoldering.
Thanks for the answer , now I have some project in mind !
Just keep in mind that the hole types will get more expensive as you move from the left to the right as they are pictured in swills latest post. The reason is it just takes longer to cut. Especially with waterjet.
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 December 2014, 15:36:56
Yes. I want to add a little question mark type icon next to each row of options to show an overlay giving more info (like this valuable piece of knowledge).I though notched meant top was removable without desoldering .Replying to keep track of the project and to thank swill .What do you mean by notched?
Maybe stupid question , but would the plate generated be notched ?
It is worth pointing out that I have 4 different switch cutout options drawn and you will be able to select which switch cutout you want to use. 3 of the 4 have cutouts for the switch top to be removed without desoldering.
Thanks for the answer , now I have some project in mind !
Just keep in mind that the hole types will get more expensive as you move from the left to the right as they are pictured in swills latest post. The reason is it just takes longer to cut. Especially with waterjet.
Thanks for all the good suggestions. :)
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 03 January 2015, 17:06:41
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 January 2015, 18:05:29
So is there a general ETA for this? Really excited to get to use itHoping to have a beta available in a week or two. I need to verify that all my cutouts work by getting a sample cut with all the openings before I really let people go nuts with it without a disclaimer. Make sense?
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 03 January 2015, 18:17:55
alright, cool :thumb:So is there a general ETA for this? Really excited to get to use itHoping to have a beta available in a week or two. I need to verify that all my cutouts work by getting a sample cut with all the openings before I really let people go nuts with it without a disclaimer. Make sense?
Post by: neverused on Sat, 03 January 2015, 19:05:08
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 03 January 2015, 19:14:44
Quick question, I don't think I saw this answered hey but since this uses the text output from the keyboard layout editor, how do you input a 2x1 key such as the enter or + on a numpad? Thanks for all of your hard work on this, looks great!
You can specify vertical dimension of each key in that tool.
Post by: neverused on Sat, 03 January 2015, 19:48:25
Quick question, I don't think I saw this answered hey but since this uses the text output from the keyboard layout editor, how do you input a 2x1 key such as the enter or + on a numpad? Thanks for all of your hard work on this, looks great!
You can specify vertical dimension of each key in that tool.
Oh wow I didn't know, what's the syntax to do so?
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 03 January 2015, 19:51:45
Quick question, I don't think I saw this answered hey but since this uses the text output from the keyboard layout editor, how do you input a 2x1 key such as the enter or + on a numpad? Thanks for all of your hard work on this, looks great!
You can specify vertical dimension of each key in that tool.
Oh wow I didn't know, what's the syntax to do so?
Height. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/Dgx9Lv4.jpg)
Post by: neverused on Sat, 03 January 2015, 20:00:00
Swill, if you're looking for a volunteer, I'd be happy to use your tool to design and cut my first personal project.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 January 2015, 20:32:00
Quick question, I don't think I saw this answered hey but since this uses the text output from the keyboard layout editor, how do you input a 2x1 key such as the enter or + on a numpad? Thanks for all of your hard work on this, looks great!
You can specify vertical dimension of each key in that tool.
Yes, this is correct. The layout editor can handle it already. My tool in its current state does not yet handle keys that are more than 1 unit tall. This is one of the features I want to add before I put this into beta.
Features before beta:
1. Add the ability to have keys with heights > 1 unit. I may write a special case for the ISO enter, but we will see...
2. Add the drawing of the additional layers of the layered sandwich case. This would include; the switch plate, an open layer (a ring with a cutout for a usb), a closed layer (a ring without a cutout) and the bottom plate. I also want to allow you to specify a different size hole in the bottom plate so you can make it a little smaller and actually tap the bottom plate (so you don't need nuts on the bottom of the sandwich plate). This is how I will be making my sandwich plates...
Once I get everything wired up in my UI so all the current functionality has been addressed, I will start working on these two features and getting them integrated into the UI. Once I have these two features built and have had a chance to verify that all my cutouts work, I will make it publically available for people to start playing with and testing...
I work two jobs and I have a 18 month old, so my free time has been pretty limited. For about the last month, I have put pretty much every minute of my free time into this. Getting everything off the ground is the hardest part. Once I have something live, it is easier to take on one feature at a time. I am targeting to get something live in a week or two, but that is assuming I can keep finding a little time every day. I have been getting about an hour every night between midnight and 1am recently, but I can't do that forever. :P
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 03 January 2015, 22:19:15
Hoping to have a beta available in a week or two. I need to verify that all my cutouts work by getting a sample cut with all the openings before I really let people go nuts with it without a disclaimer. Make sense?
Very quick!
I recommend getting some acrylic lasercut to test. It's very cheap and you can see if it works or not by popping in some switches. Once you're "more sure" you can get a metal plate made but by then you should be pretty sure the switches will fit and then you can use the more expensive metal test to make sure tolerances are where you want.
If you like to test out edges, I'd love to try it out to make a new skeldon plate. ;)
If you look at the code, the way he does the ISO enter key (and just about any 2 height key with different thicknesses on each row like the AT model F enter key) is really awkward.
1. Add the ability to have keys with heights > 1 unit. I may write a special case for the ISO enter, but we will see...
Quote
I work two jobs and I have a 18 month old, so my free time has been pretty limited. For about the last month, I have put pretty much every minute of my free time into this.We love you swill!
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 January 2015, 23:58:39
Hoping to have a beta available in a week or two. I need to verify that all my cutouts work by getting a sample cut with all the openings before I really let people go nuts with it without a disclaimer. Make sense?
Very quick!
I recommend getting some acrylic lasercut to test. It's very cheap and you can see if it works or not by popping in some switches. Once you're "more sure" you can get a metal plate made but by then you should be pretty sure the switches will fit and then you can use the more expensive metal test to make sure tolerances are where you want.
If you like to test out edges, I'd love to try it out to make a new skeldon plate. ;)
I have a few things on my plate before I get to the removed excess edge space for your skeldon plate. :) I will try to get to that once I cover more of the 90% use case situations. :)
Good suggestions on the laser cutting though. I may just get my sample plate cut in both acrylic and aluminum at the same time to speed up the process of testing. I need to call those guys tomorrow to see how much it is going to cost me to get it cut.
If you look at the code, the way he does the ISO enter key (and just about any 2 height key with different thicknesses on each row like the AT model F enter key) is really awkward.
1. Add the ability to have keys with heights > 1 unit. I may write a special case for the ISO enter, but we will see...
Yes, it is really awkward, but I have to work with it since that is what he defined. It ain't going to be pretty, but it should be functional. For keys that are > 1 unit high and are an odd shape, I may just handle them on a case by case basis and if I hit them, I will just put the switch cutout where it needs to be for that situation. It will be pretty impossible for me to know where to actually draw the cutout if I don't do it that way. Like for example, here is the ISO code: {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"
From that, how would I know where to actually make my cuts? If I can determine, "hey this is an ISO enter" and I code for handling an ISO enter as its own entity, then I think I will have a better chance of creating consistent results for people.
Speaking of which. Does anyone know where the ISO enter cutout is placed? I am guessing it has a 2unit vertical stabilizer? I have never actually seen an ISO enter IRL with the cap off.
We love you swill!
Thanks. :) I have to admit that you guys being active in this thread and cheering me on is helping me stay motivated to get this thing finished. The scope has grown a bit since I started (every project is like that), but I think the ideas have been really good and when this thing is finished it is going to be pretty epic. :)
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 04 January 2015, 04:54:48
Post by: swill on Sun, 04 January 2015, 08:25:30
Swill, check the CAD resources thread, the ISO enter is a 2u stab vertical center on 2u, and horizontal center on 1.25u.Perfect, I was hoping that was the case. I may not even need to do a special case for it. :). Thx. I will review the cad resource thread for mor details.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 04 January 2015, 23:32:13
Yes, it is really awkward, but I have to work with it since that is what he defined. It ain't going to be pretty, but it should be functional. For keys that are > 1 unit high and are an odd shape, I may just handle them on a case by case basis and if I hit them, I will just put the switch cutout where it needs to be for that situation. It will be pretty impossible for me to know where to actually draw the cutout if I don't do it that way. Like for example, here is the ISO code: {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"
From that, how would I know where to actually make my cuts? If I can determine, "hey this is an ISO enter" and I code for handling an ISO enter as its own entity, then I think I will have a better chance of creating consistent results for people.
I spent some time figuring it out, I never got the hang of the little GUI for modifying the keycap, so I instead learned how to modify the raw code and it was easier and faster anyway. Here's the relevant code for the "enter" key and the keys surrounding it
Code: [Select]
["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{x:0.25},"~\n#"]And if we add a key to the right on each row:
Code: [Select]
["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter",""],
[{x:0.25},"~\n#",""]As you see it covers the bottom of the enter, so you have to do the following to get it to workCode: [Select]
["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter",""],
[{x:0.25},"~\n#",{x:1.25},""]Now this is as expected, but if you start playing with the parameters of that "enter" key, you start to see how it was constructed. Here's the example of my differently shaped "enter" key for the displaywriterhttps://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59973.10
Code: [Select]
["¼\n½","[\n]",{x:0.25,a:7,f:2,h:2,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"RET"],
[{x:0.25},"\"\n'","3\n2"]In this case, I used the x, x2, h and h2 parameters to define it.I also had to do some modification to get a "reverse L style" enter.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b6f9cb4d66a323330a8509bc0efe3330
(note that it is defined from the "bottom")
Code: [Select]
["{\n[","}\n]"],
[{x:0.25},"\"\n'",{a:7,f:2,w:2,w2:1.25,h2:2,x2:0.75,y2:-1},"RET"]Note I had to use the parameters w,w2,h2,x2 and y2 (I think it's assumed that h1,x1 and y1 are all 1)
So it's like you're putting 2 keycaps together into one. I think I spent about a half an hour trynig to make it work. From what I remember, you have to define it from either the top or the bottom (depending on what style you have), and the "second" part of the keycap overlaps the first in such a way that they look like one. Keys that are 2 height that are the same on each level (like numpad enter) are much easier with just an "{h:2} parameter.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 January 2015, 00:05:52
Yes, it is really awkward, but I have to work with it since that is what he defined. It ain't going to be pretty, but it should be functional. For keys that are > 1 unit high and are an odd shape, I may just handle them on a case by case basis and if I hit them, I will just put the switch cutout where it needs to be for that situation. It will be pretty impossible for me to know where to actually draw the cutout if I don't do it that way. Like for example, here is the ISO code: {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"
From that, how would I know where to actually make my cuts? If I can determine, "hey this is an ISO enter" and I code for handling an ISO enter as its own entity, then I think I will have a better chance of creating consistent results for people.
I spent some time figuring it out, I never got the hang of the little GUI for modifying the keycap, so I instead learned how to modify the raw code and it was easier and faster anyway. Here's the relevant code for the "enter" key and the keys surrounding itCode: [Select]["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{x:0.25},"~\n#"]
And if we add a key to the right on each row:Code: [Select]["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter",""],As you see it covers the bottom of the enter, so you have to do the following to get it to work
[{x:0.25},"~\n#",""]Code: [Select]["}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter",""],Now this is as expected, but if you start playing with the parameters of that "enter" key, you start to see how it was constructed. Here's the example of my differently shaped "enter" key for the displaywriter
[{x:0.25},"~\n#",{x:1.25},""]
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59973.10Code: [Select]["¼\n½","[\n]",{x:0.25,a:7,f:2,h:2,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"RET"],In this case, I used the x, x2, h and h2 parameters to define it.
[{x:0.25},"\"\n'","3\n2"]
I also had to do some modification to get a "reverse L style" enter.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b6f9cb4d66a323330a8509bc0efe3330
(note that it is defined from the "bottom")Code: [Select]["{\n[","}\n]"],
[{x:0.25},"\"\n'",{a:7,f:2,w:2,w2:1.25,h2:2,x2:0.75,y2:-1},"RET"]
Note I had to use the parameters w,w2,h2,x2 and y2 (I think it's assumed that h1,x1 and y1 are all 1)
So it's like you're putting 2 keycaps together into one. I think I spent about a half an hour trynig to make it work. From what I remember, you have to define it from either the top or the bottom (depending on what style you have), and the "second" part of the keycap overlaps the first in such a way that they look like one. Keys that are 2 height that are the same on each level (like numpad enter) are much easier with just an "{h:2} parameter.
Thanks for doing this write up. Yes, I also go straight to the Raw Data and just code what I want because it makes more sense to me that way.
For me, the 'shape' of the key is less important than the actual location of the cutout. So for example, after further review I have realized that just supporting keys that are more than one unit tall with the basic logic for supporting 'x' and 'y' will actually take care of the ISO key. That is kind of lucky. This is because you can basically describe where the switch needs to be cut and what the stab will look like with the following code (which the iso key has): {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2}
Yes, the ISO enter key has more details than that to describe the shape, but these details are enough for me to know where to draw the switch cutout.
Now as you have shown in your examples, it depends on which row the person defines the 2 unit key on. In the following example I have defined them on the first and fourth rows (to illustrate my point). The one on the first row overlaps down, while the one on the fourth row overlaps up.
Code: [Select]
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""]
This is similar to your reverse L style key described by the following code (your code):
Code: [Select]
["{\n[","}\n]"],
[{x:0.25},"\"\n'",{a:7,f:2,w:2,w2:1.25,h2:2,x2:0.75,y2:-1},"RET"]
Now what is interesting about this one is how it is stabilized. It is both two units wide (at the bottom) and two units tall. So which way is it stabilized? For this one, I am not entirely sure where the switch cutout should be. Do you know?
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 January 2015, 07:58:15
In light of this (simple example), I may have to rethink how I am going to do the vertical keys.
Code: [Select]
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""]
I forgot about the fact that you could have a key with height > 1 described on or after the rows it affects. I was originally thinking that I was going to be able to process my plate from the top left corner across and down and know how to place all the keys. This is not actually the case though because if someone uses the {y:-1} format, then I don't see the height formatting (which affects the previous row) until after I have already cut the switches for that row. I was thinking I was going to be able to basically 'keep track' of where the heights affect the other rows and account for them with {x:--} when I draw that row. Since I can draw a row before I realize that it is affected by a height > 1 key, I have to change the way I am going to do this.
I think I will have to rewrite the way I draw the plate to account for this. I think I need to do a first pass to locate all the centers of the cutouts and record them. If I encounter height > 1 keys which affect other rows, I will need to modify where the centers are in the row that is affected to account for the height > 1 key.
I am going to have to think about this a little more because it does make things a little tricker. I should be able to figure out a realistic solution though...
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 05 January 2015, 13:02:11
I mean, there aren't even that many PCBs that support ISO (some of the newer asian ones like GON and red scarf do though) and it's not as popular for custom PCB design as ANSI.
I think the following shows how hard it was for me to grasp how it works (or doesn't)
Code: [Select]
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
[{y:0.5}],
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""],
[{y:2.5}],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""]The first two work but the third does not. Though this may just be my own complaints as an end-user, I have no programming experience so maybe I'm missing something.
Still, it might be prudent to contact the athour to make sure that only "legal" code be supported by your tool as well.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 January 2015, 14:39:44
If it's going to be that tricky, it might be better to add ISO support later.
I mean, there aren't even that many PCBs that support ISO (some of the newer asian ones like GON and red scarf do though) and it's not as popular for custom PCB design as ANSI.
I think the following shows how hard it was for me to grasp how it works (or doesn't)Code: [Select]["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
[{y:0.5}],
["","",{h:2},""],
["",""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""],
[{y:2.5}],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""],
["",""],
["","",{h:2,y:-1},""]
The first two work but the third does not. Though this may just be my own complaints as an end-user, I have no programming experience so maybe I'm missing something.
Still, it might be prudent to contact the athour to make sure that only "legal" code be supported by your tool as well.
Ok, that third one is just messing with my head. As soon as you specify the -y value in that one the whole row just disappears other than the offset of the y. Ummm, what??? I think thats a bug...
I have tried to contact the author, but he has not gotten back to me. His code is open source and available on github, so I just go review the code if I have questions about how something works.
Hopefully, as long as someone can make it work in his UI and I can support those use cases, I think we are good. I think ISO support and the vertical enter keys are possible without too much issue. Using a vertical enter key with a -y value and then putting keys to the right of it is where things get a little tricky because I currently don't have any way to know about the space the vertical key will take up in the line above it when I draw the line above it. I need to rebuild my system so I initially go through all the openings and 'place' them and if the placement affects other rows, it makes the change to the placement of those rows in the placement phase. Once all the keys have been placed, then it loops through and cuts the switches at each placement. I think this approach will get around this additional 'feature' of the keyboard-layout-editor.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It would have sucked to have built everything only to realize that I had missed a major use case. :)
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 05 January 2015, 18:04:41
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 05 January 2015, 18:12:06
Stupid question that may have already been answered, but have you thought about having "standard" plate options pre-made for people to select and download? Like ISO and ANSI Phantom, ISO and ANSI 60%, and so on.
IIRC those are already available
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.0
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 January 2015, 23:41:21
Stupid question that may have already been answered, but have you thought about having "standard" plate options pre-made for people to select and download? Like ISO and ANSI Phantom, ISO and ANSI 60%, and so on.
Yes, I will be doing preset layouts. So like standard 60% ANSI, 60% ISO or 60% ANSI Pure, Phantom, etc, etc...
I will also be doing preset cases, so like a filco case or a poker case or such and it will predefine the dimensions of the plate and where the mount holes go. You will also have the option to build a sandwich case for any of the layouts as well. So just because you choose a Phantom plate does not mean you want to put it in a phantom compatible case, you might want to make your own sandwich case. My sandwich case will give you the cad for every layer of the case as well. I will also make the top layer hole size independent of the bottom layer hole size so you can make the bottom layer holes smaller and then tap the bottom layer and remove the need for nuts completely...
Make sense?
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 05 January 2015, 23:42:45
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 January 2015, 21:14:54
Here you go...
Items I want to resolve before I put it live for people to play with:
1. Support vertical empty space (like between a fn and number row on a TKL).
2. Support keys with height > 1 unit.
3. Add the additional layers of the cad drawing so you have all the layers you need to build a sandwich case.
I am a little behind the schedule I was hoping to hit, so I probably won't launch anything for another couple weeks. Also, my wife is going into a very hard period of her school for the next two months, so my time may be more limited for the next little while. I will keep chugging along and give you guys updates... :)
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 07 January 2015, 01:04:08
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 07 January 2015, 09:56:03
Cheers!
Items I want to resolve before I put it live for people to play with:
http://builder.swillkb.com/
f5 f5 f5
Post by: Charger on Wed, 07 January 2015, 10:04:55
Will this support big-ass enter as well?
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 07 January 2015, 10:29:58
I'm not sure if this has been asked so i will ask it and hope it hasn't
Will this support big-ass enter as well?
Big-ass enter is complicated, I've seen a number of different arrangements of mounting stems.
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 07 January 2015, 10:40:34
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 January 2015, 13:10:57
I'm not sure if this has been asked so i will ask it and hope it hasn'tWhat is the big-ass enter? Do you know the size and the location of the cutout and stabilizers? I don't think I have ever seen a keycap set with this option.
Will this support big-ass enter as well?
Haha. This isn't a clack sale. :). Unfortunately I have been too busy working on this to even pay attention to that f5 clack sale. Oh well. Dose priorities.Cheers!
Items I want to resolve before I put it live for people to play with:
http://builder.swillkb.com/
f5 f5 f5
I won't put anything on that URL till I have it ready. I will let you know when its live. :). That was just an /etc/hosts entry to hide the real IP where it is running since I don't want people messing with my testing.
Post by: Charger on Wed, 07 January 2015, 16:19:55
I'm not sure if this has been asked so i will ask it and hope it hasn'tWhat is the big-ass enter? Do you know the size and the location of the cutout and stabilizers? I don't think I have ever seen a keycap set with this option.
Will this support big-ass enter as well?
Sadly I don't have any information to contribute as to layout for the bag-ass enter. I myself I'm planning to do a build that will need one at some point though is why i asked. The keyboard layout generator you are using has a preset for big-ass enter but I don't think it has a common layout from what I have seen in images every one I see seems a little different for stab layout.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 07 January 2015, 16:33:32
I don't have stem spacing. :(
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 January 2015, 16:43:53
"Big-Ass" Enter is a J-Shape Enter key. It's as if the |\ key and the Enter key of a standard ANSI keyboard were fused. 1.5u on top and 2.25u on bottom, 2u tall.
I don't have stem spacing. :(
Ahh, yes, I know what you are talking about. You are referring to this enter key: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d659e7a2631608f7639c8b2963f53701
This is a very common enter key on the old ALPS boards from what I can tell. dorkvader and I have discussed this key quite a bit about 10-15 posts ago when discussing the 'height > 1' keys being defined in the top or bottom row. Most of the 'height > 1' keys are defined in the top row they occupy where as this key actually is defined in the bottom row it occupies and is then shifted up. This is due to the way the keyboard-layout-editor handles 'fused' keys.
My biggest problem with supporting this key right now is that I have no information at all regarding the cutout placement or what the stabilization situation is like for this key. I am going to have to rewrite my cutout logic to handle 'height > 1' keys, so I will try to rewrite it in a way that I 'could' support this key once I understand what the cutout would be for it, but this may be in a much later iteration of the code...
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 07 January 2015, 16:47:22
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 07 January 2015, 16:50:09
As I mentioned a few posts earlier, that key has many different stem/stab configs, there really is no standard.
I guess as far as MX goes, the SteelSeries 7G would be the standard to look at. It's probably the most common, outside of Asia, anyway.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 07 January 2015, 17:29:28
I knew it!Haha. This isn't a clack sale. :). Unfortunately I have been too busy working on this to even pay attention to that f5 clack sale. Oh well. Dose priorities.Cheers!
Items I want to resolve before I put it live for people to play with:
http://builder.swillkb.com/
f5 f5 f5
I won't put anything on that URL till I have it ready. I will let you know when its live. :). That was just an /etc/hosts entry to hide the real IP where it is running since I don't want people messing with my testing.
Somehow I knew you wouldn't be lazy or forget to be careful.
Oh well, I'll test the heck out of it once it's ready.
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 January 2015, 17:48:19
As I mentioned a few posts earlier, that key has many different stem/stab configs, there really is no standard.
Ya, this key is not a priority for me. The ISO is much more of a priority because people actually use it. Luckily the code to produce it is consistent with other 'height > 1' keys, so I will not have to do any funny shenanigans to support it. :)As I mentioned a few posts earlier, that key has many different stem/stab configs, there really is no standard.
I guess as far as MX goes, the SteelSeries 7G would be the standard to look at. It's probably the most common, outside of Asia, anyway.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 07 January 2015, 21:59:16
This is not a huge deal as most users will be using "standard" 1x or greater key spacing in all directions, but cherry keyboards with the switches jammed in together as tight as possible do exist and keycaps shorter than 1x in height exist as well.
I can't imagine anyone wanting this layout in cherry MX (much more likely for ALPS) but it is in theory possible and making sure the output works correctly possibly will be important to someone eventually.
Example (note F1 key: specified as 0.6x height like the rest but rendered at 1x height):
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5418d327ed8ee812432bc489c5099ed6
Oh I think you said your current test hardware is not very fast: do you have sufficient hardware to quickly render these or should we run up a donation drive? I think TP4 has some servers he's not using.
Yeah, I think the code just recognizing that "hey, there's an ISO enter here" and rendering the proper stabilizer/switch holes for it is plenty for almost everyone and a fully featured first release.
Ya, this key is not a priority for me. The ISO is much more of a priority because people actually use it. Luckily the code to produce it is consistent with other 'height > 1' keys, so I will not have to do any funny shenanigans to support it. :)
I hope that my posting all the time in this topic is not distracting or annoying. It's hard to contain my excitement, but sometimes I wonder if I'm not being helpful, what with my lack of programming experience.
Still: I'm happy to help in any way I can, just let me know!
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 January 2015, 23:13:51
Not a "core" feature, but there appears to be a bug in the code not allowing you to set the height of the first key to be anything less than 1x.
This is not a huge deal as most users will be using "standard" 1x or greater key spacing in all directions, but cherry keyboards with the switches jammed in together as tight as possible do exist and keycaps shorter than 1x in height exist as well.
I can't imagine anyone wanting this layout in cherry MX (much more likely for ALPS) but it is in theory possible and making sure the output works correctly possibly will be important to someone eventually.
Example (note F1 key: specified as 0.6x height like the rest but rendered at 1x height):
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5418d327ed8ee812432bc489c5099ed6
Oh I think you said your current test hardware is not very fast: do you have sufficient hardware to quickly render these or should we run up a donation drive? I think TP4 has some servers he's not using.Yeah, I think the code just recognizing that "hey, there's an ISO enter here" and rendering the proper stabilizer/switch holes for it is plenty for almost everyone and a fully featured first release.
Ya, this key is not a priority for me. The ISO is much more of a priority because people actually use it. Luckily the code to produce it is consistent with other 'height > 1' keys, so I will not have to do any funny shenanigans to support it. :)
I hope that my posting all the time in this topic is not distracting or annoying. It's hard to contain my excitement, but sometimes I wonder if I'm not being helpful, what with my lack of programming experience.
Still: I'm happy to help in any way I can, just let me know!
I really appreciate how active you have been in this thread. You have spent a lot of time with the keyboard-layout-editor, so your experience is invaluable. Its not all about the code, its also about what users want, how we expect them to use it and general help with the expected/useful functionality.
I think you have found a bug regarding the first key not rendering the correct height in the keyboard-layout-editor. When I have some time I will look into the code for that and open an issue for him and submit a pull request to fix it. Thats the beauty of open source code... :)
The switch cutout for a key that is only 60% height of a regular key has to be the same as regular (because that is determined by the switch), but how close can you put that key to the row below it? I think you only have about 3-4 mm between the switches, so you cant put them so the keycaps would touch or the cutout would not work for both switches. Do you know more details on that or will I just have to figure out what the minimum distance is and if they specify something that I don't think will actually work, I just put it at the minimum distance? I guess the minimum distance is relative to the type of material being used. Hmmm...
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 January 2015, 23:30:18
Oh I think you said your current test hardware is not very fast: do you have sufficient hardware to quickly render these or should we run up a donation drive? I think TP4 has some servers he's not using.
Oh, about the servers... No I don't need any funding. I have the perk of working for a cloud computing company and we have our own gated public cloud which I am 'testing'. :P We need to actually put it through its paces and test all the edge cases and stuff as we start to put customers on it, so I am taking advantage of that and have access to as much resources as I need. Right now I am running my server with 4 cores and 16GB of ram. FreeCAD is not super fast when it comes to drawing, rendering and exporting the cad which is why it is a little slow, its not really a lack of resources. I think that people can chill out and wait for 30 seconds while their cad is drawn for them. It is going to be a hell of a lot faster than if they were to do it by hand, so people will learn patience... :P
Post by: joey on Thu, 08 January 2015, 05:09:44
Just keep in mind that the hole types will get more expensive as you move from the left to the right as they are pictured in swills latest post. The reason is it just takes longer to cut. Especially with waterjet.
Any idea how much difference we're talking?
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 08 January 2015, 07:06:05
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 08:07:40
Just keep in mind that the hole types will get more expensive as you move from the left to the right as they are pictured in swills latest post. The reason is it just takes longer to cut. Especially with waterjet.
Any idea how much difference we're talking?
I think swill posted a good approximate a few pages back on how the costs generally scale based on complexity of the switch.I posted that in the CAD Resource Hub because the same question was asked there.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.msg1578128.msg#1578128
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 08 January 2015, 10:05:45
I think you have found a bug regarding the first key not rendering the correct height in the keyboard-layout-editor. When I have some time I will look into the code for that and open an issue for him and submit a pull request to fix it. Thats the beauty of open source code... :)
The switch cutout for a key that is only 60% height of a regular key has to be the same as regular (because that is determined by the switch), but how close can you put that key to the row below it? I think you only have about 3-4 mm between the switches, so you cant put them so the keycaps would touch or the cutout would not work for both switches. Do you know more details on that or will I just have to figure out what the minimum distance is and if they specify something that I don't think will actually work, I just put it at the minimum distance? I guess the minimum distance is relative to the type of material being used. Hmmm...
Credit where it's due, Jacobolus found that bug.
As far as the switch cutout for a 0.6 height key, all the ones I have seen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157641884809274/) have a smaller keycap that is centered on the switch. It's an odd case, as you could do it differently. I suppose asking people to do things for really odd stuff like that can do their own cad file or input workable switches in the the tool yielding the cutouts they want.
Still, you can place the switches right up next to eachother if you have smaller keycaps like that. But in such a case you can't have a plate in that area.
I will do some measuring to get the minimum distance but I believe it's 15mm
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 10:11:43
I think you have found a bug regarding the first key not rendering the correct height in the keyboard-layout-editor. When I have some time I will look into the code for that and open an issue for him and submit a pull request to fix it. Thats the beauty of open source code... :)
The switch cutout for a key that is only 60% height of a regular key has to be the same as regular (because that is determined by the switch), but how close can you put that key to the row below it? I think you only have about 3-4 mm between the switches, so you cant put them so the keycaps would touch or the cutout would not work for both switches. Do you know more details on that or will I just have to figure out what the minimum distance is and if they specify something that I don't think will actually work, I just put it at the minimum distance? I guess the minimum distance is relative to the type of material being used. Hmmm...
Credit where it's due, Jacobolus found that bug.
As far as the switch cutout for a 0.6 height key, all the ones I have seen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157641884809274/) have a smaller keycap that is centered on the switch. It's an odd case, as you could do it differently. I suppose asking people to do things for really odd stuff like that can do their own cad file or input workable switches in the the tool yielding the cutouts they want.
Still, you can place the switches right up next to each other if you have smaller keycaps like that. But in such a case you can't have a plate in that area.
I will do some measuring to get the minimum distance but I believe it's 15mm
Cool thanks. I will think about how to best handle this. Luckily there is a live preview of your plate before you download, so if you see that cutouts are overlapping you can easily adjust your layout and try again, so its not the end of the world. I could try to put something in place to make sure that the combination of height and y and such do not put the cutouts too close. I will think about it. For now I think people will just have to check their work before they send it to be manufactured. :P
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 08 January 2015, 10:22:00
Cool thanks. I will think about how to best handle this. Luckily there is a live preview of your plate before you download, so if you see that cutouts are overlapping you can easily adjust your layout and try again, so its not the end of the world. I could try to put something in place to make sure that the combination of height and y and such do not put the cutouts too close. I will think about it. For now I think people will just have to check their work before they send it to be manufactured. :P
Yeah, or if they need something that the tool can't handle, there's at least one person active in the forum who considers himself pretty good at designing keyboard plates. I hear that guy is usually pretty responsive to custom requests, if you ask him nicely.
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:00:16
For my personnal use , I switch between 2.75u rShift and 1.75u rShift +1u key. Having my own "Universal" plate with cut-outs for both rShift configuration would be fantastic .
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:27:40
Cool thanks. I will think about how to best handle this. Luckily there is a live preview of your plate before you download, so if you see that cutouts are overlapping you can easily adjust your layout and try again, so its not the end of the world. I could try to put something in place to make sure that the combination of height and y and such do not put the cutouts too close. I will think about it. For now I think people will just have to check their work before they send it to be manufactured. :P
Yeah, or if they need something that the tool can't handle, there's at least one person active in the forum who considers himself pretty good at designing keyboard plates. I hear that guy is usually pretty responsive to custom requests, if you ask him nicely.
I feel the pain, ain't nobody going to PM me now for case building. :/
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:31:36
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:50:08
Just out of curiosity, are the downloaded files going to be 2d or 3d?
The video shows a 3D render of the finished plate.
I would guess that it is in fact 3D.
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:54:14
Just throwing an idea around , but could be interesting for it to generate a CAD based on 2+ keyboard layouts .
For my personnal use , I switch between 2.75u rShift and 1.75u rShift +1u key. Having my own "Universal" plate with cut-outs for both rShift configuration would be fantastic .
I don't think I am going to be committing to this at this point. Especially since I think those two cutouts will actually overlap (if I remember correctly) and one uses a stabilizer and the other doesnt. I see this being a mess. I have not tried it, but you might be able to just code both keys in the layout editor and superimpose them on top of each other with the correct negative x setting to have the tool cut both cutouts. I have never tried this and I will not vouch for it working, but it 'might' be possible to do it that way...
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:55:25
Just out of curiosity, are the downloaded files going to be 2d or 3d?
Just out of curiosity, are the downloaded files going to be 2d or 3d?
The video shows a 3D render of the finished plate.
I would guess that it is in fact 3D.
Yes, the downloads are 3D solid drawings...
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 08 January 2015, 12:04:46
Just throwing an idea around , but could be interesting for it to generate a CAD based on 2+ keyboard layouts .
For my personnal use , I switch between 2.75u rShift and 1.75u rShift +1u key. Having my own "Universal" plate with cut-outs for both rShift configuration would be fantastic .
I don't think I am going to be committing to this at this point. Especially since I think those two cutouts will actually overlap (if I remember correctly) and one uses a stabilizer and the other doesnt. I see this being a mess. I have not tried it, but you might be able to just code both keys in the layout editor and superimpose them on top of each other with the correct negative x setting to have the tool cut both cutouts. I have never tried this and I will not vouch for it working, but it 'might' be possible to do it that way...
Another use case for a human to draw your plate. While this tool is actually nothing short of AMAZEBALLS, and automates things for the vast majority of what people want, there will always be a need for skilled people to be involved when more custom options are required.
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 12:11:46
Cool thanks. I will think about how to best handle this. Luckily there is a live preview of your plate before you download, so if you see that cutouts are overlapping you can easily adjust your layout and try again, so its not the end of the world. I could try to put something in place to make sure that the combination of height and y and such do not put the cutouts too close. I will think about it. For now I think people will just have to check their work before they send it to be manufactured. :P
Yeah, or if they need something that the tool can't handle, there's at least one person active in the forum who considers himself pretty good at designing keyboard plates. I hear that guy is usually pretty responsive to custom requests, if you ask him nicely.
I feel the pain, ain't nobody going to PM me now for case building. :/
Cool thanks. I will think about how to best handle this. Luckily there is a live preview of your plate before you download, so if you see that cutouts are overlapping you can easily adjust your layout and try again, so its not the end of the world. I could try to put something in place to make sure that the combination of height and y and such do not put the cutouts too close. I will think about it. For now I think people will just have to check their work before they send it to be manufactured. :P
Yeah, or if they need something that the tool can't handle, there's at least one person active in the forum who considers himself pretty good at designing keyboard plates. I hear that guy is usually pretty responsive to custom requests, if you ask him nicely.
I am sorry guys. It was not my intention to replace the need for your services with this. To be totally honest it didn't even really cross my mind that this tool would actually affect the type of services you guys offer. :( I feel really bad because both of you have been very supportive of my work on this, I didn't even consider the fact that I would be taking work away from you guys.
Maybe I can introduce some limitations in the tool and in the help I can send the users to you guys. :P
I was really expecting this tool to just cater to builders who were prototyping different plates. It has since grown to potentially supporting different cases and so on... My initial motivation for doing this was because I thought "it would be awesome if I could just create this layout in the keyboard-layout-editor and then have it automatically draw the plate for me" because I wanted to prototype a new potential 60% layout with my Enabler PCBs. This is the layout that started it all: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/091af7581f5647094c35386ccdf55d0d
In reality, I am going to get the basic functionality up and it will not be complete for what everyone wants. I will slowly add features, but I will be doing that at a much slower pace once I get things up. I have basically spent ALL of my spare time on this for pretty much two months and I still don't have it live yet. The scale of this project if I actually do everything that everyone wants is much bigger than I would like to admit. I will try to take little bites out of it, but this tool will never capture the whole plate and case building market. I bet half the community won't even know it exists for at least a year or two...
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 12:14:16
Just throwing an idea around , but could be interesting for it to generate a CAD based on 2+ keyboard layouts .
For my personnal use , I switch between 2.75u rShift and 1.75u rShift +1u key. Having my own "Universal" plate with cut-outs for both rShift configuration would be fantastic .
I don't think I am going to be committing to this at this point. Especially since I think those two cutouts will actually overlap (if I remember correctly) and one uses a stabilizer and the other doesnt. I see this being a mess. I have not tried it, but you might be able to just code both keys in the layout editor and superimpose them on top of each other with the correct negative x setting to have the tool cut both cutouts. I have never tried this and I will not vouch for it working, but it 'might' be possible to do it that way...
Another use case for a human to draw your plate. While this tool is actually nothing short of AMAZEBALLS, and automates things for the vast majority of what people want, there will always be a need for skilled people to be involved when more custom options are required.
Absolutely... I have no intention of supporting the 'universal' type layouts. If you can't draw it in the keyboard-layout-editor, I won't support it, end of story.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 08 January 2015, 12:18:55
I am sorry guys. It was not my intention to replace the need for your services with this. To be totally honest it didn't even really cross my mind that this tool would actually affect the type of services you guys offer. :( I feel really bad because both of you have been very supportive of my work on this, I didn't even consider the fact that I would be taking work away from you guys.
No need to apologize at all. I am usually really busy, and anything that can help people with getting the plate designs they want on their schedule is a good thing. Please don't think I'm upset about losing any income or anything from this. I don't normally charge anything for my help with plates, anyway. Standard (and custom) designs that this tool will generate should be in the public domain, anyway. The only time I hesitate to release something for wide dissemination is when I have spent a lot of time drawing up a proprietary design, and I think the person requesting a copy of it only wants it to sell for profit or something.
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 12:58:03
Ya, I did not intend to step on anyone's toes with this, so I am glad this isn't conflicting with one of your revenue streams.I am sorry guys. It was not my intention to replace the need for your services with this. To be totally honest it didn't even really cross my mind that this tool would actually affect the type of services you guys offer. :( I feel really bad because both of you have been very supportive of my work on this, I didn't even consider the fact that I would be taking work away from you guys.
No need to apologize at all. I am usually really busy, and anything that can help people with getting the plate designs they want on their schedule is a good thing. Please don't think I'm upset about losing any income or anything from this. I don't normally charge anything for my help with plates, anyway. Standard (and custom) designs that this tool will generate should be in the public domain, anyway. The only time I hesitate to release something for wide dissemination is when I have spent a lot of time drawing up a proprietary design, and I think the person requesting a copy of it only wants it to sell for profit or something.
BTW, I have no problem promoting skilled community members in my UI.
I could put something like the following in the footer.
"This tool solves for a variety of common layouts, but it does have its limitations. For help on custom projects consider contacting the following geekhack members:
Custom plate design: jdcarpe, ...
Custom case design: MOZ, nudeCNC, ..."
If people are struggling with my tool and need a specialist, it might be a good way to advertise the skilled people in our community.
Anyone who offers services in these areas who want to be featured, just let me know and I can add that section with your name.
I get nothing from people using the tool, so it is not a competition for me. If they have made it to my tool they are serious about building something, so it seems like a perfect place to promote our other skilled people.
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 08 January 2015, 13:23:32
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 13:33:06
I love what you are doing here. I am an intermediate-ish python programmer and would like to see the code if it is available but I didn't see a link to source? If you don't want to release it that's totally fine BTW.
My plan is to open source it once I get the initial launch finished. That being said, some very valid concerns have been raised about me open sourcing the code without putting thought into the license I plan to associate with the project. I need to be a bit careful how I open source it because I need to ensure that companies dont just gack the code and embed it in their websites for profit. I want it to be free to use for people who are using it for non-commercial reasons and I need to figure out some sort of licensing for people who want to use it for commercial reasons. This is obviously not my area of expertise as I completely neglected to think about this until it was brought up in this thread. I am a little too altruistic and maybe even naive when it comes to that sort of thing, so I do need to put some thought into it before I release the code... Make sense?
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 08 January 2015, 14:22:37
Like JDCarpe, I have no issues at all. I was just having some fun. As I mentioned when this project started that I wanted to do something like myself, but never found the time, I'm so happy that someone actually got to doing this.
You'd know from my works, I am always up for building stuff and it being open-source, and never charge anything, for the most simplest of reasons, that I got to learn so much on this community from members like regack (I can't ever thank this man enough, I love him), jdcarpe, WFD, bpiphany, litster, haata and probably more that I can't remember and never paid a dime to them and hence see no reason to charge myself.
Hence you aren't stepping on my toes at the very least, or harming any source of income as there never was. As a matter of fact you are helping me, often I get requests and I'm unable to help much due to my own laziness/busy-ness. :)
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 08 January 2015, 14:38:21
Ok thanks to both of you for the answers .Just throwing an idea around , but could be interesting for it to generate a CAD based on 2+ keyboard layouts .
For my personnal use , I switch between 2.75u rShift and 1.75u rShift +1u key. Having my own "Universal" plate with cut-outs for both rShift configuration would be fantastic .
I don't think I am going to be committing to this at this point. Especially since I think those two cutouts will actually overlap (if I remember correctly) and one uses a stabilizer and the other doesnt. I see this being a mess. I have not tried it, but you might be able to just code both keys in the layout editor and superimpose them on top of each other with the correct negative x setting to have the tool cut both cutouts. I have never tried this and I will not vouch for it working, but it 'might' be possible to do it that way...
Another use case for a human to draw your plate. While this tool is actually nothing short of AMAZEBALLS, and automates things for the vast majority of what people want, there will always be a need for skilled people to be involved when more custom options are required.
Absolutely... I have no intention of supporting the 'universal' type layouts. If you can't draw it in the keyboard-layout-editor, I won't support it, end of story.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:08:48
Yes, the downloads are 3D solid drawings...
These aren't 3D drawings. It's a 3D solid. It looks like a parasolid and it's not parametric. In other words, I can't go in and tweak anything in the .stl file. I just get this 3D representation. Typically you can alter 3D models and change the dimensions. If you can't alter the dimensions, it's called a parasolid or just 3D solid. A drawing is a blueprint with dimensions and tolerances the shop can use to make your parts. Just thought I'd point that out.
Second, I can't open any of the files you sent me in the email other than the .stl file in Autodesk Inventor. Not sure if that's a limitation of Inventor but I thought I'd share.
I couldn't get Inventor to create a drawing with it. Some shops ask for a .dwg file because you can see the dimensions.
What I thought of today is that I'm worried about tolerances. If they aren't accounted for, the plate might not work. Your tool doesn't seem to account for tolerances in the machining process. Have you talked to JD or another person who has made plates to see how they dealt with this? Is it a non-issue? I'm not sure but you should find out if you envision this tool being used by a lot of people. Tolerance build up can turn your drawing, which is "perfect", into a plate in real life that may not work. I assume that what you're using is ok....but I wouldn't want to assume if I were you. Just a thought.
Edited for clarity. English is hard.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:17:55
What I thought of today is that I'm worried about tolerances. If they aren't accounted for, the plate might not work. Your tool doesn't seem to account for tolerances in the machining process. Have you talked to JD or another person who has made plates to see how they dealt with this? Is it a non-issue? I'm not sure but you should find out if you envision this tool being used by a lot of people. Tolerance build up can turn your drawing, which is "perfect", into a plate in real life that may not work. I assume that what you're using is ok....but I wouldn't want to assume if I were you. Just a thought.
He actually addressed this earlier in the thread, when he was deciding which dimensions to use for his holes. The "standard" is 14mm, or 0.551 inches, but most drawings I've seen and made have 13.97mm hole dimensions.
It's actually good to keep bringing this up, so that after testing is done, the topic can be revisited. :)
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:19:19
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:29:00
Yes, the downloads are 3D solid drawings...
These aren't 3D drawings. It's a 3D solid. It looks like a parasolid and it's not parametric. In other words, I can't go in and tweak anything in the .stl file. I just get this 3D representation. Typically you can alter 3D models and change the dimensions. If you can't alter the dimensions, it's called a parasolid or just 3D solid. A drawing is a blueprint with dimensions and tolerances the shop can use to make your parts. Just thought I'd point that out.
Second, I can't open any of the files you sent me in the email other than the .stl file in Autodesk Inventor. Not sure if that's a limitation of Inventor but I thought I'd share.
I couldn't get Inventor to create a drawing with it. Some shops ask for a .dwg file because you can see the dimensions.
What I thought of today is that I'm worried about tolerances. If they aren't accounted for, the plate might not work. Your tool doesn't seem to account for tolerances in the machining process. Have you talked to JD or another person who has made plates to see how they dealt with this? Is it a non-issue? I'm not sure but you should find out if you envision this tool being used by a lot of people. Tolerance build up can turn your drawing, which is "perfect", into a plate in real life that may not work. I assume that what you're using is ok....but I wouldn't want to assume if I were you. Just a thought.
Thank you for the clarification. The STL format is the most lossy of the formats I sent you. It is troubling that the STL was the only one you were able to open. Hmmm...
With the STP and BRP files, I know that the dimensions are included in the file because I can measure and add dimensions to the solid once it is imported into FreeCAD (the only cad program I have). Were you getting errors when you tried to open them or did your software just not support opening that format? Do you know which formats you can open so I can try to get you a file for you to check that is not as lossy as the STL format? Maybe IGS or OBJ?
As for tolerances, are you talking about tolerances in the actual drawing? My drawings are within the tolerances according to the cherry spec, but I have not specified anything specific in my application. In my application I work with tolerances down to 0.005mm, but I think the cherry spec only has tolerances of 0.05mm. We will revisit this once I get some test stuff cut...
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:29:54
Ok good. I just wanted to be thorough and I was too lazy to read the whole thread again. Apologies for being lazy but I think understanding tolerances is important to translating a design from CAD to an actual part in real life.
Are you talking about tolerances in the actual drawing or tolerances in the CAD engine itself?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:31:22
Ok good. I just wanted to be thorough and I was too lazy to read the whole thread again. Apologies for being lazy but I think understanding tolerances is important to translating a design from CAD to an actual part in real life.
Are you talking about tolerances in the actual drawing or tolerances in the CAD engine itself?
Laser/WJ kerf and part fitment, I believe.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 08 January 2015, 16:48:31
Thank you for the clarification. The STL format is the most lossy of the formats I sent you. It is troubling that the STL was the only one you were able to open. Hmmm...
With the STP and BRP files, I know that the dimensions are included in the file because I can measure and add dimensions to the solid once it is imported into FreeCAD (the only cad program I have). Were you getting errors when you tried to open them or did your software just not support opening that format? Do you know which formats you can open so I can try to get you a file for you to check that is not as lossy as the STL format? Maybe IGS or OBJ?
As for tolerances, are you talking about tolerances in the actual drawing? My drawings are within the tolerances according to the cherry spec, but I have not specified anything specific in my application. In my application I work with tolerances down to 0.005mm, but I think the cherry spec only has tolerances of 0.05mm. We will revisit this once I get some test stuff cut...
I was able to open .stl in Inventor. That's it. I tried the other files you sent (.brp, .igs, .stp) all didn't open. Here is a list of part files I'm able to open in Inventor.
(http://i.imgur.com/YAcbcXV.png)
It could just be Inventor's limitations.
Ok good. I just wanted to be thorough and I was too lazy to read the whole thread again. Apologies for being lazy but I think understanding tolerances is important to translating a design from CAD to an actual part in real life.
Are you talking about tolerances in the actual drawing or tolerances in the CAD engine itself?
Laser/WJ kerf and part fitment, I believe.
What JD said. CAD engine tolerances are tolerances that you would build into the drawing. I'm worried about fit and function of the actual part. But it seems like you've already covered a lot of that with JD.
Edited for clarity. English is hard.
Post by: vvp on Thu, 08 January 2015, 17:35:51
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 08 January 2015, 17:47:10
Post by: vvp on Thu, 08 January 2015, 18:12:26
http://cubify.com/Products/Design
http://www.geomagic.com/en/products-landing-pages/geomagicdesign
I have a pretty good knowledge about FreeCAD and Cubify Design. Long story short: Cubify is more limited as for as what you can do (what modeling options are available), but it can replay history properly (at least I did not catch it failing yet). Probably the biggest problem with it is that it cannot export to STEP (only STL). FreeCAD has a lot of modeling tools and options which mostly work, it can be scripted in python (this is actually pretty useful), but its history replay and editing sucks.
Edit: Cubify Design could be much more useful if they would allow using constants / variables / expressions on more places.
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 19:58:32
If you recall we discussed CADs and I could not find anything useful and cheap. At the end, I found Cubify Design for 150€ (it is a striped down version of Geomagic Design (which is about 2000€ IIRC)). I believe they were called Alibre before ... or something like that.My scripting engine is currently written using FreeCAD.
http://cubify.com/Products/Design
http://www.geomagic.com/en/products-landing-pages/geomagicdesign
I have a pretty good knowledge about FreeCAD and Cubify Design. Long story short: Cubify is more limited as for as what you can do (what modeling options are available), but it can replay history properly (at least I did not catch it failing yet). Probably the biggest problem with it is that it cannot export to STEP (only STL). FreeCAD has a lot of modeling tools and options which mostly work, it can be scripted in python (this is actually pretty useful), but its history replay and editing sucks.
Edit: Cubify Design could be much more useful if they would allow using constants / variables / expressions on more places.
@cptn: I am surprised you were not able to open the igs or STP files I sent you. Hmmm.
Post by: Evo_Spec on Thu, 08 January 2015, 20:03:41
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 20:15:09
Did i miss the link to the tool or is everyone just smarter than me and understands code and is just talking about that?No. I just released a video of the tool a page or so back. It has not been released yet, I am still sorting through some stuff.
Post by: Evo_Spec on Thu, 08 January 2015, 20:20:15
Did i miss the link to the tool or is everyone just smarter than me and understands code and is just talking about that?No. I just released a video of the tool a page or so back. It has not been released yet, I am still sorting through some stuff.
okay good, i was going around looking for a link thinking it was just having a really hard time finding the link lol
btw, great video, i look forward to seeing this tool and i thank you for doing it!
Post by: tbc on Thu, 08 January 2015, 21:23:09
isn't this enough? http://choosealicense.com/licenses/no-license/
you're protected by copyright. anyone who uses your code without permission is in violation and liable to be sued.
i think the only weird issue would be how to handle contributions; i suspect each contribution will have it's own copyright and each contributor has legal leverage to block usage of the software.
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 21:59:58
on licensing:
isn't this enough? http://choosealicense.com/licenses/no-license/
you're protected by copyright. anyone who uses your code without permission is in violation and liable to be sued.
i think the only weird issue would be how to handle contributions; i suspect each contribution will have it's own copyright and each contributor has legal leverage to block usage of the software.
No, I don't think that is realistic for software licensing. I think I have to go with something more like creative commons where it is free for people for personal use, but not for commercial use. I have to review the links that were sent to me when we were discussing this a few pages back because others did suggest some potential licenses and I have not had a chance to research them.
As for contributions, they would be falling under the same licence. They would not have ownership of the code but would be able to use it for non-commercial uses. For commercial uses, they would have to contact me and we would have to work out a licensing deal of some kind. Once I release this and get this sorted out, I will be putting the code on github and people will be able to contribute by submitting pull requests...
Post by: sethk_ on Thu, 08 January 2015, 22:42:34
I don't know how copyright works, but couldn't you make a terms and agreement that you automatically agree to buy using it?on licensing:
isn't this enough? http://choosealicense.com/licenses/no-license/
you're protected by copyright. anyone who uses your code without permission is in violation and liable to be sued.
i think the only weird issue would be how to handle contributions; i suspect each contribution will have it's own copyright and each contributor has legal leverage to block usage of the software.
No, I don't think that is realistic for software licensing. I think I have to go with something more like creative commons where it is free for people for personal use, but not for commercial use. I have to review the links that were sent to me when we were discussing this a few pages back because others did suggest some potential licenses and I have not had a chance to research them.
As for contributions, they would be falling under the same licence. They would not have ownership of the code but would be able to use it for non-commercial uses. For commercial uses, they would have to contact me and we would have to work out a licensing deal of some kind. Once I release this and get this sorted out, I will be putting the code on github and people will be able to contribute by submitting pull requests...
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 January 2015, 22:44:25
Honestly I don't know, I need to do a bunch of reading before I will know anything on this subject. I have never had to worry about this before.I don't know how copyright works, but couldn't you make a terms and agreement that you automatically agree to buy using it?on licensing:
isn't this enough? http://choosealicense.com/licenses/no-license/
you're protected by copyright. anyone who uses your code without permission is in violation and liable to be sued.
i think the only weird issue would be how to handle contributions; i suspect each contribution will have it's own copyright and each contributor has legal leverage to block usage of the software.
No, I don't think that is realistic for software licensing. I think I have to go with something more like creative commons where it is free for people for personal use, but not for commercial use. I have to review the links that were sent to me when we were discussing this a few pages back because others did suggest some potential licenses and I have not had a chance to research them.
As for contributions, they would be falling under the same licence. They would not have ownership of the code but would be able to use it for non-commercial uses. For commercial uses, they would have to contact me and we would have to work out a licensing deal of some kind. Once I release this and get this sorted out, I will be putting the code on github and people will be able to contribute by submitting pull requests...
Post by: sethk_ on Thu, 08 January 2015, 22:45:11
I just am excited to play around with it, but it would be scummy to use it for commercial useHonestly I don't know, I need to do a bunch of reading before I will know anything on this subject. I have never had to worry about this before.I don't know how copyright works, but couldn't you make a terms and agreement that you automatically agree to buy using it?on licensing:
isn't this enough? http://choosealicense.com/licenses/no-license/
you're protected by copyright. anyone who uses your code without permission is in violation and liable to be sued.
i think the only weird issue would be how to handle contributions; i suspect each contribution will have it's own copyright and each contributor has legal leverage to block usage of the software.
No, I don't think that is realistic for software licensing. I think I have to go with something more like creative commons where it is free for people for personal use, but not for commercial use. I have to review the links that were sent to me when we were discussing this a few pages back because others did suggest some potential licenses and I have not had a chance to research them.
As for contributions, they would be falling under the same licence. They would not have ownership of the code but would be able to use it for non-commercial uses. For commercial uses, they would have to contact me and we would have to work out a licensing deal of some kind. Once I release this and get this sorted out, I will be putting the code on github and people will be able to contribute by submitting pull requests...
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 09 January 2015, 02:04:12
I love what you are doing here. I am an intermediate-ish python programmer and would like to see the code if it is available but I didn't see a link to source? If you don't want to release it that's totally fine BTW.
My plan is to open source it once I get the initial launch finished. That being said, some very valid concerns have been raised about me open sourcing the code without putting thought into the license I plan to associate with the project. I need to be a bit careful how I open source it because I need to ensure that companies dont just gack the code and embed it in their websites for profit. I want it to be free to use for people who are using it for non-commercial reasons and I need to figure out some sort of licensing for people who want to use it for commercial reasons. This is obviously not my area of expertise as I completely neglected to think about this until it was brought up in this thread. I am a little too altruistic and maybe even naive when it comes to that sort of thing, so I do need to put some thought into it before I release the code... Make sense?
Thats a fair concern. Not a lawyer but I believe This (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/) will cover that.
Post by: tbc on Fri, 09 January 2015, 03:05:48
(https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Before_Licensing#Make_sure_the_material_is_appropriate_for_CC_licensing.)
?
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 09 January 2015, 11:17:29
https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Before_Licensing#Make_sure_the_material_is_appropriate_for_CC_licensing.
(https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Before_Licensing#Make_sure_the_material_is_appropriate_for_CC_licensing.)
?
Dammit. I always used CC on my programs, and assumed you could do that. So, I found this (http://vizsage.com/license/Vizsage-Deed-BY-NC-SA.html) that seems to apply to software but I have never heard of it before. It seems strange, but there seem to be no software equivalents (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6785153/software-license-equivalent-to-cc-attribution-noncommercial-sharealike-3-0) to the previously linked creative commons license.
Post by: swill on Fri, 09 January 2015, 20:30:59
If I am going to "open source" the software, I can not treat any groups of people differently. This means that I can not treat commercial and noncommercial differently.
That being said, there are some interesting licenses out there that make it harder for commercial users to just gack the code for profit.
I will most likely be launching this with the AGPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html) license. Basically this is an open source license that allows for the code to be modified and republished, but it requires that the source code of the republished work be downloadable.
This is good for us as a community because any work that is done on the tool is required to be made available. It also makes it less likely that a company will just come along and take the code for commercial use and embed it in their app because they would then have to make their app's source code available. This will likely be enough of a deterrent for most companies unless they are very serious.
Interestingly, this license does not restrict a company from contacting me, the author, and requesting to purchase rights to the application under a different license. That's what I read anyway. If that is the case, it still gives a serious company a way to embed the application without releasing their source assuming we can come to an agreement.
So far this seems to be the best option.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 09 January 2015, 20:59:47
Alright, I have done a bunch of research on this on the train on my way home.
If I am going to "open source" the software, I can not treat any groups of people differently. This means that I can not treat commercial and noncommercial differently.
That being said, there are some interesting licenses out there that make it harder for commercial users to just gack the code for profit.
I will most likely be launching this with the AGPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html) license. Basically this is an open source license that allows for the code to be modified and republished, but it requires that the source code of the republished work be downloadable.
This is good for us as a community because any work that is done on the tool is required to be made available. It also makes it less likely that a company will just come along and take the code for commercial use and embed it in their app because they would then have to make their app's source code available. This will likely be enough of a deterrent for most companies unless they are very serious.
Interestingly, this license does not restrict a company from contacting me, the author, and requesting to purchase rights to the application under a different license. That's what I read anyway. If that is the case, it still gives a serious company a way to embed the application without releasing their source assuming we can come to an agreement.
So far this seems to be the best option.
If my understanding of your understanding is correct, this sounds like a pretty good setup for it.
Post by: sethk_ on Fri, 09 January 2015, 21:03:03
That license is almost prefect for the plate builders use.Alright, I have done a bunch of research on this on the train on my way home.
If I am going to "open source" the software, I can not treat any groups of people differently. This means that I can not treat commercial and noncommercial differently.
That being said, there are some interesting licenses out there that make it harder for commercial users to just gack the code for profit.
I will most likely be launching this with the AGPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html) license. Basically this is an open source license that allows for the code to be modified and republished, but it requires that the source code of the republished work be downloadable.
This is good for us as a community because any work that is done on the tool is required to be made available. It also makes it less likely that a company will just come along and take the code for commercial use and embed it in their app because they would then have to make their app's source code available. This will likely be enough of a deterrent for most companies unless they are very serious.
Interestingly, this license does not restrict a company from contacting me, the author, and requesting to purchase rights to the application under a different license. That's what I read anyway. If that is the case, it still gives a serious company a way to embed the application without releasing their source assuming we can come to an agreement.
So far this seems to be the best option.
If my understanding of your understanding is correct, this sounds like a pretty good setup for it.
Post by: tbc on Fri, 09 January 2015, 21:28:41
swill, did you check to see that you're not violating the freecad licenses?
it specifically mentions that gpl is valid, as is reusung lgpl. i've only knowingly seen agpl once before and i'm not sure how it relates to those 2 mentioned ones.
Post by: swill on Fri, 09 January 2015, 21:28:46
i am pretty happy with this license. i think i can officially say that i will be making the source available under this license. sweet! one less thing to worry about... :)
Post by: tbc on Fri, 09 January 2015, 21:31:34
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/66254/can-a-user-relicense-lgpl-as-gpl-or-gpl-as-agpl
Post by: swill on Fri, 09 January 2015, 21:36:15
http://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Licence#Impact_of_the_licences
swill, did you check to see that you're not violating the freecad licenses?
it specifically mentions that gpl is valid, as is reusung lgpl. i've only knowingly seen agpl once before and i'm not sure how it relates to those 2 mentioned ones.
No, we are good. AGPL is basically a GPL license with one additional clause to handle code that is run on a server (like mine). FreeCAD by design is not networked and can not be used over a network, so they only mention GPL since that is really the only aspect that applies to them.
There is provisions between the GPL licenses that basically says that they respect the authority of the other GPL type licenses (or something along those lines). Also, I am not modifying any of those core libraries, so I do not have to worry about their licenses for the most part. I am just using the libraries.
All things considered, this is pretty much the perfect license for this...
Edit:
FreeCAD actually goes so far as to wave some of the conditions of the license right off the top:
"Commercial developers can use FreeCAD as the groundwork for their own extension modules for special purposes and are not forced to make their modules open source."
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 12 January 2015, 23:12:06
Post by: swill on Mon, 12 January 2015, 23:35:10
Stupid question, but will this work with making acrylic plates and other plastics? I seem to like acrylic and plastic plates better, and this would be awesome if they work.
Yes it will, but I have to do some tests with my cutouts because I know the kerf with metals and plastics are different so I need to make sure that my cutouts will work with everything. All my cutouts are drawn to cherry spec, but that does not mean that they will be perfect first shot...
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 13 January 2015, 00:06:25
Ok, thanks!Stupid question, but will this work with making acrylic plates and other plastics? I seem to like acrylic and plastic plates better, and this would be awesome if they work.
Yes it will, but I have to do some tests with my cutouts because I know the kerf with metals and plastics are different so I need to make sure that my cutouts will work with everything. All my cutouts are drawn to cherry spec, but that does not mean that they will be perfect first shot...
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 13 January 2015, 12:08:51
Stupid question, but will this work with making acrylic plates and other plastics? I seem to like acrylic and plastic plates better, and this would be awesome if they work.
Yes it will, but I have to do some tests with my cutouts because I know the kerf with metals and plastics are different so I need to make sure that my cutouts will work with everything. All my cutouts are drawn to cherry spec, but that does not mean that they will be perfect first shot...
I've mentioned common acrylic kerf for the thickness used somewhere in the start of the thread. My experience, has been that using the Cherry spec results in slightly loose cutouts, and slight compenstion in CAD is required.
Post by: swill on Tue, 13 January 2015, 13:41:18
Stupid question, but will this work with making acrylic plates and other plastics? I seem to like acrylic and plastic plates better, and this would be awesome if they work.
Yes it will, but I have to do some tests with my cutouts because I know the kerf with metals and plastics are different so I need to make sure that my cutouts will work with everything. All my cutouts are drawn to cherry spec, but that does not mean that they will be perfect first shot...
I've mentioned common acrylic kerf for the thickness used somewhere in the start of the thread. My experience, has been that using the Cherry spec results in slightly loose cutouts, and slight compenstion in CAD is required.
Ya, I need to figure out how to automate that modification to the cutouts so I can have someone specify their material and it will adjust the tolerances according to what the expected kerf will be. I have not done that yet and I need to think about how I am going to handle that...
Post by: Beelzebro on Tue, 13 January 2015, 13:56:08
Post by: p3lim on Wed, 14 January 2015, 09:57:01
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 14 January 2015, 10:08:07
Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
This could be swill, I guess....
Post by: swill on Wed, 14 January 2015, 11:34:30
Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
This could be swill, I guess....
Interestingly, this is not actually me... haha...
Apparently someone else is working on this too...
Post by: sethk_ on Wed, 14 January 2015, 13:29:08
I hVent checked it out, but yours probably has better support and more options.Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
This could be swill, I guess....
Interestingly, this is not actually me... haha...
Apparently someone else is working on this too...
Post by: swill on Wed, 14 January 2015, 17:37:01
More delays and more work, but I am slowly making progress. I also have not had as much time the last couple days because our nights have been a bit tough with the baby and I have been exhausted. Hopefully I can get the server rebuilt tonight and I can start working on fun stuff again.
Post by: swill on Wed, 14 January 2015, 23:51:23
I will finally be able to get back to the fun stuff. Cheers...
Post by: smellz on Thu, 15 January 2015, 15:18:00
Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
Hi everyone, I'm the author of this reddit post.
I had been toying with the idea for a while, but unfortunately never saw this thread. I had a lot of spare time during my Christmas break, so I did some research and wrote some python code.
My script will probably be annoying to use for most people, but it works. Some things are wrong with it (such as the cherry stab holes) but I'll be making a few improvements to it shortly.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks.
Post by: swill on Thu, 15 January 2015, 15:24:32
Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
Hi everyone, I'm the author of this reddit post.
I had been toying with the idea for a while, but unfortunately never saw this thread. I had a lot of spare time during my Christmas break, so I did some research and wrote some python code.
My script will probably be annoying to use for most people, but it works. Some things are wrong with it (such as the cherry stab holes) but I'll be making a few improvements to it shortly.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks.
Thanks for jumping into this conversation. I am sure the two of us can give valuable feedback to each other. :) The guys who have been contributing to this thread have added a lot of very interesting insight that will probably help both of us.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 January 2015, 23:01:13
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
I will attach a flow diagram at the end, but here is the basic idea:
- On my server I have a Tornado application which acts as my webserver. It basically hosts the website.
- When new drawing requests come in, the Tornado server will automatically spin up a new LXC container (which is basically running the exact same Tornado application) as a worker for that request and the parent server directs the LXC worker to actually draw the CAD.
- When the CAD is finished being drawn, the LXC worker will upload all the files into an AWS S3 bucket and will return to the parent server the metadata and where to find the files in S3.
- When the client requests to download the CAD files, the request is sent directly to S3 and the files are retrieved from S3 without ever actually hitting my server.
- In addition, if subsequent requests are made for the exact same layout (including holes, padding, etc, etc...) the server will see that the CAD has already been drawn, and it will return the request directly referencing the existing S3 files for that drawing. For a cache hit, the two have to be identical, so even if legends on the layout changes (which does not affect the resulting CAD), it will miss the cache and redraw from scratch.
- Once an LXC worker has finished doing its work, it will automatically be destroyed.
That is basically it. Here is a graphic to illustrate what I specified above...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sun, 18 January 2015, 23:18:05
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 19 January 2015, 02:04:02
Alright, so this update has been a long time in coming. I have been slowly chugging away at this, but the problem that I could not draw two CAD drawings at the same time really threw a wrench into my plans of having this available as a web application.
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
I will attach a flow diagram at the end, but here is the basic idea:
- On my server I have a Tornado application which acts as my webserver. It basically hosts the website.
- When new drawing requests come in, the Tornado server will automatically spin up a new LXC container (which is basically running the exact same Tornado application) as a worker for that request and the parent server directs the LXC worker to actually draw the CAD.
- When the CAD is finished being drawn, the LXC worker will upload all the files into an AWS S3 bucket and will return to the parent server the metadata and where to find the files in S3.
- When the client requests to download the CAD files, the request is sent directly to S3 and the files are retrieved from S3 without ever actually hitting my server.
- In addition, if subsequent requests are made for the exact same layout (including holes, padding, etc, etc...) the server will see that the CAD has already been drawn, and it will return the request directly referencing the existing S3 files for that drawing. For a cache hit, the two have to be identical, so even if legends on the layout changes (which does not affect the resulting CAD), it will miss the cache and redraw from scratch.
- Once an LXC worker has finished doing its work, it will automatically be destroyed.
That is basically it. Here is a graphic to illustrate what I specified above...
(Attachment Link)
Nice job! Very efficient. ETA for a release?
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 06:32:41
Soon™. I still have a lot of little things to take care of, so hopefully I can get through them quickly. The next couple months are a bit crazy around here because my wife is finishing osteo school. I have the baby a lot so she can study, so my time is pretty limited right now. As long as I don't hit any more show stoppers like this I should be able to get this out the door in the next couple weeks.Alright, so this update has been a long time in coming. I have been slowly chugging away at this, but the problem that I could not draw two CAD drawings at the same time really threw a wrench into my plans of having this available as a web application.
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
I will attach a flow diagram at the end, but here is the basic idea:
- On my server I have a Tornado application which acts as my webserver. It basically hosts the website.
- When new drawing requests come in, the Tornado server will automatically spin up a new LXC container (which is basically running the exact same Tornado application) as a worker for that request and the parent server directs the LXC worker to actually draw the CAD.
- When the CAD is finished being drawn, the LXC worker will upload all the files into an AWS S3 bucket and will return to the parent server the metadata and where to find the files in S3.
- When the client requests to download the CAD files, the request is sent directly to S3 and the files are retrieved from S3 without ever actually hitting my server.
- In addition, if subsequent requests are made for the exact same layout (including holes, padding, etc, etc...) the server will see that the CAD has already been drawn, and it will return the request directly referencing the existing S3 files for that drawing. For a cache hit, the two have to be identical, so even if legends on the layout changes (which does not affect the resulting CAD), it will miss the cache and redraw from scratch.
- Once an LXC worker has finished doing its work, it will automatically be destroyed.
That is basically it. Here is a graphic to illustrate what I specified above...
(Attachment Link)
Nice job! Very efficient. ETA for a release?
Sorry for the delays and all the #hype. I am excited about this too, but it has been slower progress than I was hoping.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Mon, 19 January 2015, 07:46:46
SoonAlright, so this update has been a long time in coming. I have been slowly chugging away at this, but the problem that I could not draw two CAD drawings at the same time really threw a wrench into my plans of having this available as a web application.
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
I will attach a flow diagram at the end, but here is the basic idea:
- On my server I have a Tornado application which acts as my webserver. It basically hosts the website.
- When new drawing requests come in, the Tornado server will automatically spin up a new LXC container (which is basically running the exact same Tornado application) as a worker for that request and the parent server directs the LXC worker to actually draw the CAD.
- When the CAD is finished being drawn, the LXC worker will upload all the files into an AWS S3 bucket and will return to the parent server the metadata and where to find the files in S3.
- When the client requests to download the CAD files, the request is sent directly to S3 and the files are retrieved from S3 without ever actually hitting my server.
- In addition, if subsequent requests are made for the exact same layout (including holes, padding, etc, etc...) the server will see that the CAD has already been drawn, and it will return the request directly referencing the existing S3 files for that drawing. For a cache hit, the two have to be identical, so even if legends on the layout changes (which does not affect the resulting CAD), it will miss the cache and redraw from scratch.
- Once an LXC worker has finished doing its work, it will automatically be destroyed.
That is basically it. Here is a graphic to illustrate what I specified above...
(Attachment Link)
Nice job! Very efficient. ETA for a release?. I still have a lot of little things to take care of, so hopefully I can get through them quickly. The next couple months are a bit crazy around here because my wife is finishing osteo school. I have the baby a lot so she can study, so my time is pretty limited right now. As long as I don't hit any more show stoppers like this I should be able to get this out the door in the next couple weeks.
Sorry for the delays and all the #hype. I am excited about this too, but it has been slower progress than I was hoping.
Bro, pretty much every project any of us does around here (including me) hits unforeseen snags and delays. I think it's awesome that you saw a need, said "I can do that", and got 'er done.
Post by: tjweir on Mon, 19 January 2015, 08:36:20
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
Awesome, happy to help test it out if need be.
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 08:45:33
SoonAlright, so this update has been a long time in coming. I have been slowly chugging away at this, but the problem that I could not draw two CAD drawings at the same time really threw a wrench into my plans of having this available as a web application.
I am happy to announce that I have solved the problem and I now have a working application which can handle drawing more than one CAD at a time.
I will attach a flow diagram at the end, but here is the basic idea:
- On my server I have a Tornado application which acts as my webserver. It basically hosts the website.
- When new drawing requests come in, the Tornado server will automatically spin up a new LXC container (which is basically running the exact same Tornado application) as a worker for that request and the parent server directs the LXC worker to actually draw the CAD.
- When the CAD is finished being drawn, the LXC worker will upload all the files into an AWS S3 bucket and will return to the parent server the metadata and where to find the files in S3.
- When the client requests to download the CAD files, the request is sent directly to S3 and the files are retrieved from S3 without ever actually hitting my server.
- In addition, if subsequent requests are made for the exact same layout (including holes, padding, etc, etc...) the server will see that the CAD has already been drawn, and it will return the request directly referencing the existing S3 files for that drawing. For a cache hit, the two have to be identical, so even if legends on the layout changes (which does not affect the resulting CAD), it will miss the cache and redraw from scratch.
- Once an LXC worker has finished doing its work, it will automatically be destroyed.
That is basically it. Here is a graphic to illustrate what I specified above...
(Attachment Link)
Nice job! Very efficient. ETA for a release?
Sorry for the delays and all the #hype. I am excited about this too, but it has been slower progress than I was hoping.
Bro, pretty much every project any of us does around here (including me) hits unforeseen snags and delays. I think it's awesome that you saw a need, said "I can do that", and got 'er done.
haha, ya... i need to get this launched soon so i can start on my actual build projects. :P
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 10:43:39
Should a switch opening be rotated if (height > width)? I am going to be doing this for vertical keys (with or without stabilizers). Also, does the direction the switch is rotated matter? I know for normal switch opens it doesn't, but for ones with stabilizers, that may be a different story. I am currently planning to rotate clockwise, but I could change that...
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 19 January 2015, 10:57:01
Random question...
Should a switch opening be rotated if (height > width)? I am going to be doing this for vertical keys (with or without stabilizers). Also, does the direction the switch is rotated matter? I know for normal switch opens it doesn't, but for ones with stabilizers, that may be a different story. I am currently planning to rotate clockwise, but I could change that...
Different keyboards (PCBs) do it different ways. I don't know that there is a best practice on which way to orient the stabilizer holes. :(
Also, some PCBs have the vertical switch aligned to the orientation of the stabilizer, and some keep the switch aligned with all the other switches in direction.
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 12:49:53
Different keyboards (PCBs) do it different ways. I don't know that there is a best practice on which way to orient the stabilizer holes. :(
Ok, I will add a way for the orientation to be overridden on a switch by switch bases so we can orient the stabilizers however we need to.
Also, some PCBs have the vertical switch aligned to the orientation of the stabilizer, and some keep the switch aligned with all the other switches in direction.
I didn't actually understand this. can you give me a little better description of this so I can figure out how to deal with it.
Thx for your help. :)
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 19 January 2015, 13:00:07
Diagram:Different keyboards (PCBs) do it different ways. I don't know that there is a best practice on which way to orient the stabilizer holes. :(
Ok, I will add a way for the orientation to be overridden on a switch by switch bases so we can orient the stabilizers however we need to.Also, some PCBs have the vertical switch aligned to the orientation of the stabilizer, and some keep the switch aligned with all the other switches in direction.
I didn't actually understand this. can you give me a little better description of this so I can figure out how to deal with it.
Thx for your help. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/oEBv907.png])
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 19 January 2015, 13:08:08
Diagram:Different keyboards (PCBs) do it different ways. I don't know that there is a best practice on which way to orient the stabilizer holes. :(
Ok, I will add a way for the orientation to be overridden on a switch by switch bases so we can orient the stabilizers however we need to.Also, some PCBs have the vertical switch aligned to the orientation of the stabilizer, and some keep the switch aligned with all the other switches in direction.
I didn't actually understand this. can you give me a little better description of this so I can figure out how to deal with it.
Thx for your help. :)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/oEBv907.png])
Exactly. Thanks for illustrating my text. :)
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 19 January 2015, 13:11:14
Diagram:Different keyboards (PCBs) do it different ways. I don't know that there is a best practice on which way to orient the stabilizer holes. :(
Ok, I will add a way for the orientation to be overridden on a switch by switch bases so we can orient the stabilizers however we need to.Also, some PCBs have the vertical switch aligned to the orientation of the stabilizer, and some keep the switch aligned with all the other switches in direction.
I didn't actually understand this. can you give me a little better description of this so I can figure out how to deal with it.
Thx for your help. :)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/oEBv907.png])
Exactly. Thanks for illustrating my text. :)
Any chance to whip out the ol' paint.net :)
Post by: smellz on Mon, 19 January 2015, 13:15:51
I figured it would be an important option if they're using H cut outs with cherry stabilizers or if they are using Alps-like switches.
Btw, has anyone here tried my tool? I know you are all anxious to see swill's progress, but I'd like to know if mine is getting used atm.
Would there be enough people to discuss it with if I made a separate thread?
edit: I made a thread
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67865.0
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 13:25:15
With my tool, users can specify that a switch should be rotated by 90 degrees by putting !r! in the key's label in the layout editor.
I figured it would be an important option if they're using H cut outs with cherry stabilizers or if they are using Alps-like switches.
Btw, has anyone here tried my tool? I know you are all anxious to see swill's progress, but I'd like to know if mine is getting used atm.
Would there be enough people to discuss it with if I made a separate thread?
Thanks dude... I have already added the ability to use a {t:<0-3>} to keys to override the switch cutout type (not yet documented feature). I will just add additional options for people to override different features on a key by key basis. I may change it to be {_t:<0-3>} and then use {_r:<degrees>} for rotating. I will have to do two different rotation parameters though, one for switch and one for stabilizer so they can be rotated (or not) independently.
I think it would be a good idea to start a thread here for your tool. I know a lot of people are eager for my tool to be ready, but my code is taking longer than I was hoping. When you get an OP setup, link it in this thread so everyone here sees it too. Lots of people with good ideas in this thread and I am sure a bunch will be interested in playing with your tool too. :)
Edit: I just noticed you are from Ottawa. I am in Montreal. Ya Canada... :P
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 19 January 2015, 14:08:18
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 14:15:27
Here is a standard ISO layout without any modifications to the rotations:
[attachimg=1]
I have added support for some 'hidden' options by manually editing the resulting output from the keyboard-layout-editor:
{_t:<0-3>} => change the switch cutout to use for the switch. Useful if you want to use the H cutout + one alps switch or something like that.
{_r:<angle>} => rotate the switch cutout (does not rotate the stabilizer cutout)
{_rs:<angle>} => rotate the stabilizer cutout (does not rotate the switch cutout)
Here is a modified 50% ISO layout. I have changed the default rotation of the switch cutout for the ISO enter as well as flipping the default stabilizer cutout the other way. I used this code for the Enter: {x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25,_r:90,_rs:180},"Enter"
In addition I changed the switch cutout of the spacebar to have an Alps compatible switch opening using the following code: {w:6.25,_t:1},""
Here it is:
[attachimg=2]
I think that takes care of most use cases for this kind of stuff...
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 19 January 2015, 15:03:03
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 16:09:19
Also, will the kerf apply to all edges of the cutout. Yes right?
With a configurable kerf field we should be able to make the same cutouts work for all materials. I will be getting a test plate cut (hopefully in a couple materials) which will have all of my cutouts, orientations and sizes so I can verify that everything works as expected. I would also like to test 3-4 different kerf settings with each switch cutout as well so I can determine the best kerf settings for each material with my cutouts.
So just as an example, lets say I just have a square cutout and I have a kerf set to something stupid like .05mm. So then my 14mm square hole will be 13.9mm square since it will have taken .05mm off each edge. Make sense? Anything I am not thinking about here?
Thx guys...
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 17:22:18
For the switch openings I think it is pretty easy to do the kerf because I can just shrink the hole by <kerf>. This can be done by just subtracting the <kerf> from each cartesian coordinate (relative to center). It gets a little trickier with the stabilizer openings because the center of the stabilizer holes needs to stay at exactly <X> from switch center. I will need subtract kerf from some areas and add kerf to other areas to shrink the 'opening' while still keeping the centers of each of the major components in the right place. I will look into this tonight when my brain is not so foggy and I have a piece of paper in front of me so I can draw it...
Post by: hwood34 on Mon, 19 January 2015, 17:22:29
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 19:33:41
If only I knew what was going on here half the time :)) Still just as excited for the release of this though :thumb:Haha. You and I both. :). In all seriousness, things are coming along and I think it is going to be pretty sweet once its ready.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 19 January 2015, 20:33:51
I found this which is kind of interesting for showing some basic kerf numbers for acrylic: http://www.redtorope.com/2011/07/laser-cutter-kerf-measurement/
For the switch openings I think it is pretty easy to do the kerf because I can just shrink the hole by <kerf>. This can be done by just subtracting the <kerf> from each cartesian coordinate (relative to center). It gets a little trickier with the stabilizer openings because the center of the stabilizer holes needs to stay at exactly <X> from switch center. I will need subtract kerf from some areas and add kerf to other areas to shrink the 'opening' while still keeping the centers of each of the major components in the right place. I will look into this tonight when my brain is not so foggy and I have a piece of paper in front of me so I can draw it...
With regards to the kerf on the locations of the stab cutouts, just take half from every edge in relation to the center line. IE if the edges are 3mm from center line, 6mm apart, and the kerf is .05mm, then your distances would be 2.975mm from center or 5.95mm from each other but location of the hole is unchanged. This is one advantage of working from center lines as opposed to pitch.
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 January 2015, 20:51:21
I found this which is kind of interesting for showing some basic kerf numbers for acrylic: http://www.redtorope.com/2011/07/laser-cutter-kerf-measurement/
For the switch openings I think it is pretty easy to do the kerf because I can just shrink the hole by <kerf>. This can be done by just subtracting the <kerf> from each cartesian coordinate (relative to center). It gets a little trickier with the stabilizer openings because the center of the stabilizer holes needs to stay at exactly <X> from switch center. I will need subtract kerf from some areas and add kerf to other areas to shrink the 'opening' while still keeping the centers of each of the major components in the right place. I will look into this tonight when my brain is not so foggy and I have a piece of paper in front of me so I can draw it...
With regards to the kerf on the locations of the stab cutouts, just take half from every edge in relation to the center line. IE if the edges are 3mm from center line, 6mm apart, and the kerf is .05mm, then your distances would be 2.975mm from center or 5.95mm from each other but location of the hole is unchanged. This is one advantage of working from center lines as opposed to pitch.
Ya, this is basically how I have it setup. I am working from center lines, but it is an equation so I can use the same code for all center stem space bars.
So that brings up another question. So kerf is measured to be the width of the cut. If I am using both sides of the cut, I care about the whole kerf. Since I am only using one side of the cut, I really only care about half of the kerf. So... I am guessing that I should collect the kerf value from the UI as the real kerf (which a laser cutter will probably quote) and then divide that number by 2 to get the relative kerf associated with my (keep) side of the cut line. Yes?
I am guessing this makes the most sense from an input perspective.
Also, I am guessing I should make the plate outside edge to be the kerf size bigger than the dimensions given so once the plate is cut, its outside dimensions are actually the right size. Same with the mount holes. I should shrink them by 1/2 the kerf. Basically everything I cut should be corrected for kerf.
Post by: neverused on Mon, 19 January 2015, 22:27:57
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 19 January 2015, 22:46:34
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 19 January 2015, 22:56:15
Just wondering but what are the chances that the files this app pukes out will be editable with SolidWorks?
That's like the default app, besides FreeCAD. :)
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 19 January 2015, 23:13:25
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 08:06:42
Just wondering but what are the chances that the files this app pukes out will be editable with SolidWorks?The export formats result in a 3D solid. You could theoretically modify it after, but it will not do you any favours. You will not be able to modify what I produce other than to add (more likely remove) material.
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 08:07:36
Looking very nice swill. I highly appreciate the ability to set the switch cut out using the text from the layout generator. Regarding kerf, what you have said, sounds right.Cool. Thanks for verifying. :). I will try to get this finished tonight.
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 20 January 2015, 09:22:29
Looking very nice swill. I highly appreciate the ability to set the switch cut out using the text from the layout generator. Regarding kerf, what you have said, sounds right.Cool. Thanks for verifying. :). I will try to get this finished tonight.
HYPE!
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 20 January 2015, 13:17:32
Just wondering but what are the chances that the files this app pukes out will be editable with SolidWorks?The export formats result in a 3D solid. You could theoretically modify it after, but it will not do you any favours. You will not be able to modify what I produce other than to add (more likely remove) material.
Yeah it would be to make holes bigger and then combine certain holes as well.
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 13:22:35
Ya, that should be possible.Just wondering but what are the chances that the files this app pukes out will be editable with SolidWorks?The export formats result in a 3D solid. You could theoretically modify it after, but it will not do you any favours. You will not be able to modify what I produce other than to add (more likely remove) material.
Yeah it would be to make holes bigger and then combine certain holes as well.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 20 January 2015, 13:25:20
Someone posted this on reddit today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2seon0/i_wrote_a_script_that_makes_a_keyboard_plate_in/
This could be swill, I guess....
Interestingly, this is not actually me... haha...
Apparently someone else is working on this too...
Same person posted a thread on GH. Just FYI.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67865.0
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 16:35:29
Here is stabilizer cutout with kerf = 0.0mm
[attachimg=1]
Here is the same cutout with kerf = 0.1mm
[attachimg=2]
And here is the current UI with all options expanded...
[attachimg=3]
Let me know if you see any problems with my calculations. I have implemented kerf for all my cutouts. Also, let me know if you think I should change the UI at all for this feature. I am considering adding a default kerf of something like 0.05, but I am not sure about that yet. Do we know what the kerf is for 1.6mm aluminum? Thx guys...
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 16:41:56
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/20/7ee9dba0c2ced6fd958936867fbe3e1b.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/20/a2551205a343a4633a73b9a36795ce78.jpg)
Post by: neverused on Tue, 20 January 2015, 16:44:50
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 20 January 2015, 16:49:06
Alright. Kerf is implemented...
Here is stabilizer cutout with kerf = 0.0mm
(Attachment Link)
Here is the same cutout with kerf = 0.1mm
(Attachment Link)
And here is the current UI with all options expanded...
(Attachment Link)
Let me know if you see any problems with my calculations. I have implemented kerf for all my cutouts. Also, let me know if you think I should change the UI at all for this feature. I am considering adding a default kerf of something like 0.05, but I am not sure about that yet. Do we know what the kerf is for 1.6mm aluminum? Thx guys...
I think a good choice for UI would be just to have the drop down select what the plate material will be, which will dictate what the kerf will be for the calculations on the back end. What those numbers are for different materials I can't tell ya, but I wouldn't think that it would vary to much from fab shop to fab shop.
Post by: swill on Tue, 20 January 2015, 16:53:22
I was thinking of doing that, but then I would require the thickness field if they specify the material because the thickness affects the kerf value. I will talk to a couple shops and see what they quote me for kerf for the different materials and thicknesses.Alright. Kerf is implemented...
Here is stabilizer cutout with kerf = 0.0mm
(Attachment Link)
Here is the same cutout with kerf = 0.1mm
(Attachment Link)
And here is the current UI with all options expanded...
(Attachment Link)
Let me know if you see any problems with my calculations. I have implemented kerf for all my cutouts. Also, let me know if you think I should change the UI at all for this feature. I am considering adding a default kerf of something like 0.05, but I am not sure about that yet. Do we know what the kerf is for 1.6mm aluminum? Thx guys...
I think a good choice for UI would be just to have the drop down select what the plate material will be, which will dictate what the kerf will be for the calculations on the back end. What those numbers are for different materials I can't tell ya, but I wouldn't think that it would vary to much from fab shop to fab shop.
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 21 January 2015, 01:48:57
Post by: swill on Wed, 21 January 2015, 08:16:39
Yeah, looks good. In the help popup, maybe you can have a small table with the commonly used materials (Acrylic, steel, alu) and the common thickness (1.5mm, 3mm, 5mm) and the associated kerfs.Ya. That's a good simple idea.
Post by: swill on Wed, 21 January 2015, 13:09:27
I did a test to build 5 plates at the same time with the following results. It definitely affects the build time of each plate, but it is still within reason. All the plates were built within about 2 minutes, so thats not too bad. Thats not too bad considering there was about 110 seconds of blocked time where only one plate is being worked on in that period.
Here are some details:
Code: [Select]
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866400.51
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.156
LXC setup took: 11.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866412.36
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.2
LXC setup took: 12.49 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866425.12
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.249
LXC setup took: 12.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866438.16
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.59
LXC setup took: 12.46 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866450.98
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.116
LXC setup took: 12.67 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 102.38 seconds
Request took: 102.83 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 141.85 seconds
Request took: 142.20 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 91.73 seconds
Request took: 92.07 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 117.67 seconds
Request took: 117.94 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 132.14 seconds
Request took: 132.39 seconds
They are all building the same hash because I was building the same layout on all machines. I currently have caching turned off for testing purposes...
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 21 January 2015, 13:19:57
Last night I spent a bunch of time trying to get the processes to be parallelized. I have been able to get the actual cad drawing to be done in sub processes and that is working great. However I still have not been able to figure out how to make the setup of the LXC containers no block my thread. All in all, I think this aspect of the code is good enough...
I did a test to build 5 plates at the same time with the following results. It definitely affects the build time of each plate, but it is still within reason. All the plates were built within about 2 minutes, so thats not too bad. Thats not too bad considering there was about 110 seconds of blocked time where only one plate is being worked on in that period.
Here are some details:Code: [Select]LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866400.51
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.156
LXC setup took: 11.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866412.36
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.2
LXC setup took: 12.49 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866425.12
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.249
LXC setup took: 12.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866438.16
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.59
LXC setup took: 12.46 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866450.98
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.116
LXC setup took: 12.67 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 102.38 seconds
Request took: 102.83 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 141.85 seconds
Request took: 142.20 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 91.73 seconds
Request took: 92.07 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 117.67 seconds
Request took: 117.94 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 132.14 seconds
Request took: 132.39 seconds
They are all building the same hash because I was building the same layout on all machines. I currently have caching turned off for testing purposes...
Surely 10 seconds on the main thread isn't too bad? Or does this stop any user from using the tool?
Post by: swill on Wed, 21 January 2015, 13:55:05
Last night I spent a bunch of time trying to get the processes to be parallelized. I have been able to get the actual cad drawing to be done in sub processes and that is working great. However I still have not been able to figure out how to make the setup of the LXC containers no block my thread. All in all, I think this aspect of the code is good enough...
I did a test to build 5 plates at the same time with the following results. It definitely affects the build time of each plate, but it is still within reason. All the plates were built within about 2 minutes, so thats not too bad. Thats not too bad considering there was about 110 seconds of blocked time where only one plate is being worked on in that period.
Here are some details:Code: [Select]LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866400.51
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.156
LXC setup took: 11.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866412.36
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.2
LXC setup took: 12.49 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866425.12
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.249
LXC setup took: 12.58 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866438.16
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.59
LXC setup took: 12.46 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC processing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
Creating LXC worker: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8_1421866450.98
Worker has IP: 10.0.3.116
LXC setup took: 12.67 seconds
Drawing: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 102.38 seconds
Request took: 102.83 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 141.85 seconds
Request took: 142.20 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 91.73 seconds
Request took: 92.07 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 117.67 seconds
Request took: 117.94 seconds
LXC finished: 1434c58682d567f414ea0bda091e94668f30e7f8
LXC process took: 132.14 seconds
Request took: 132.39 seconds
They are all building the same hash because I was building the same layout on all machines. I currently have caching turned off for testing purposes...
Surely 10 seconds on the main thread isn't too bad? Or does this stop any user from using the tool?
From a UI perspective, a user will not notice anything. The UI will function as expected. This is not actually how it works, but this is the basic idea to illustrate the point.
You can think of the problem like this. Every request to build a CAD that gets sent to the server in the first 10 seconds while you are seeing the following 'processing' will delay your response by 10 seconds...
[attachimg=1]
That is the basic idea. It is actually based on the requests that have been submitted before your request and your 'create LXC worker' process is queued until their workers have been created, but the timing details are harder to understand if explained that way...
In short, it will only affect the build time of the CAD, not the functionality of the actual app...
Post by: swill on Fri, 23 January 2015, 23:53:03
Below is the layout I am looking to do (I will add a bunch of different holes as well in both 2 and 3 mm (ish) so I can get a feel for how kerf affects them as well.
[attachimg=1]
Here is how I am rendering it. I am rendering it with all combinations of options that I can think of. I am also verifying the width of all the keys is actually correct.
[attachimg=2]
I am not cutting every single spacebar size. They all use the same formula, so as long as the Deskthority wiki is correct on spacing details, they should all be good. I don't actually have the spacebars to actually test those other random sized spacebars, so that is just going to have to be the way it is.
Here is the code I am using to generate the plate (so far, this will get customized a bit because I still need to draw a bunch of rows of holes):
Code: [Select]
[{_t:0,_k:0.0},"_t:0\n_k:0",{_t:0,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,_k:0.15},"_t:0\n_k:.15",{_t:1,_k:0.0},"_t:1\n_k:0",{_t:1,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{_t:1,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1",{_t:1,_k:0.15},"_t:1\n_k:.15",{_t:1,_r:90,h:2,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{_t:1,_r:90,_rs:180,h:2,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:2,_k:0.0},"_t:2\n_k:0",{_t:2,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1",{_t:2,_k:0.15},"_t:2\n_k:.15",{_t:3,_k:0.0},"_t:3\n_k:0",{_t:3,_k:0.05},"_t:3\n_k:.05",{_t:3,_k:0.1},"_t:3\n_k:.1",{_t:3,_k:0.15},"_t:3\n_k:.15"],
[{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.0},"_t:0\n_k:0",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.15},"._t:0\n_k:.15",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.2},"_t:0\n_k:.2"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:1.75,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:1,w:2.25,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{_t:2,w:2.75,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_r:90,h:2,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_r:90,_rs:180,h:2,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:1.75,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:1,w:2.25,_k:0.1,_rs:180},"_t:1\n_k:.1",{_t:2,w:2.75,_k:0.1,_rs:180},"_t:2\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.5,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:1,w:7,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25,_t:0,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.025},"_t:0\n_k:.025",{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.075},"_t:0\n_k:.075",{_t:2,w:6.25,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05"],
[{_t:0,w:1.5,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:1,w:7,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25,_t:0,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.125},"_t:0\n_k:.125",{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.175},"_t:0\n_k:.175",{_t:2,w:6.25,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1"]
Let me know if you guys have comments. If you notice something that I am missing, please let me know. Most of the layout keys I only did it two kerf values just to make sure I got at least one working version so I could test the actual layout of the keys. I am hoping I can get a good idea what kerf values will be ideal for the different materials with this.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 23 January 2015, 23:57:46
Starting to get a test plate together for testing all the different cutouts and configuration options. I am planning to get a plate cut in 1.5mm aluminum and one in 5mm acrylic. I think this should give us a pretty good idea where we are at.
Below is the layout I am looking to do (I will add a bunch of different holes as well in both 2 and 3 mm (ish) so I can get a feel for how kerf affects them as well.
(Attachment Link)
Here is how I am rendering it. I am rendering it with all combinations of options that I can think of. I am also verifying the width of all the keys is actually correct.
(Attachment Link)
I am not cutting every single spacebar size. They all use the same formula, so as long as the Deskthority wiki is correct on spacing details, they should all be good. I don't actually have the spacebars to actually test those other random sized spacebars, so that is just going to have to be the way it is.
Here is the code I am using to generate the plate (so far, this will get customized a bit because I still need to draw a bunch of rows of holes):Code: [Select][{_t:0,_k:0.0},"_t:0\n_k:0",{_t:0,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,_k:0.15},"_t:0\n_k:.15",{_t:1,_k:0.0},"_t:1\n_k:0",{_t:1,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{_t:1,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1",{_t:1,_k:0.15},"_t:1\n_k:.15",{_t:1,_r:90,h:2,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{_t:1,_r:90,_rs:180,h:2,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:2,_k:0.0},"_t:2\n_k:0",{_t:2,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1",{_t:2,_k:0.15},"_t:2\n_k:.15",{_t:3,_k:0.0},"_t:3\n_k:0",{_t:3,_k:0.05},"_t:3\n_k:.05",{_t:3,_k:0.1},"_t:3\n_k:.1",{_t:3,_k:0.15},"_t:3\n_k:.15"],
[{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.0},"_t:0\n_k:0",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.15},"._t:0\n_k:.15",{_t:0,w:2,_k:0.2},"_t:0\n_k:.2"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:1.75,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:2.25,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:0,w:2.75,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_r:90,h:2,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05",{_t:2,_r:90,_rs:180,h:2,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:1.75,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:2.25,_k:0.1,_rs:180},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:0,w:2.75,_k:0.1,_rs:180},"_t:0\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.5,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05",{_t:1,w:7,_k:0.05},"_t:1\n_k:.05",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25,_t:0,_k:0.05},"_t:0\n_k:.05"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.025},"_t:0\n_k:.025",{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.075},"_t:0\n_k:.075",{_t:2,w:6.25,_k:0.05},"_t:2\n_k:.05"],
[{_t:0,w:1.5,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1",{_t:1,w:7,_k:0.1},"_t:1\n_k:.1",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25,_t:0,_k:0.1},"_t:0\n_k:.1"],
[{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.125},"_t:0\n_k:.125",{_t:0,w:1.25,_k:0.175},"_t:0\n_k:.175",{_t:2,w:6.25,_k:0.1},"_t:2\n_k:.1"]
Let me know if you guys have comments. If you notice something that I am missing, please let me know. Most of the layout keys I only did it two kerf values just to make sure I got at least one working version so I could test the actual layout of the keys. I am hoping I can get a good idea what kerf values will be ideal for the different materials with this.
What size space bars would you need?
I ordered the space bar pack on the toxic buy so I can loan you a few for testing.
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 January 2015, 00:11:06
What size space bars would you need?
I ordered the space bar pack on the toxic buy so I can loan you a few for testing.
Right now I have the following center stem space bar stabilizer cutouts specified:
Code: [Select]
self.stabs = {
"300":19.05-3.325, # 3 unit
"400":28.575-3.325, # 4 unit
"450":34.671-3.325, # 4.5 unit
"550":42.8625-3.325, # 5.5 unit
"625":50-3.325, # 6.25 unit
"650":52.38-3.325, # 6.5 unit
"700":57.15-3.325, # 7 unit
"800":66.675-3.325, # 8 unit
"900":66.675-3.325, # 9 unit
"1000":66.675-3.325 # 10 unit
}
BTW, all these numbers come from here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions8, 9 and 10 all have the same stem spacing, so if we have any of them, we can verify the stem spacing for all of them.
I know a lot of those are obscure, but I figured that if I had the specs for them I would add them. I am considering picking up a 4 unit space bar from the R5 leftovers (http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:HONEY_SPACE400_BLACK.png) just so I have one and can play with that for some interesting bottom row layouts with the enabler PCBs.
Post by: Dihedral on Sat, 24 January 2015, 03:26:40
Starting to get a test plate together for testing all the different cutouts and configuration options. I am planning to get a plate cut in 1.5mm aluminum and one in 5mm acrylic. I think this should give us a pretty good idea where we are at.
snip
Let me know if you guys have comments. If you notice something that I am missing, please let me know. Most of the layout keys I only did it two kerf values just to make sure I got at least one working version so I could test the actual layout of the keys. I am hoping I can get a good idea what kerf values will be ideal for the different materials with this.
Nice! Where do you plan on getting it cut?
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 January 2015, 07:37:00
One of my local laser cutters. There are a few in Montreal. I have not used any of them yet, so I will try to compare them a bit and see which is best for small jobs.Starting to get a test plate together for testing all the different cutouts and configuration options. I am planning to get a plate cut in 1.5mm aluminum and one in 5mm acrylic. I think this should give us a pretty good idea where we are at.
snip
Let me know if you guys have comments. If you notice something that I am missing, please let me know. Most of the layout keys I only did it two kerf values just to make sure I got at least one working version so I could test the actual layout of the keys. I am hoping I can get a good idea what kerf values will be ideal for the different materials with this.
Nice! Where do you plan on getting it cut?
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 24 January 2015, 07:43:42
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 January 2015, 09:00:56
Do you know if the kerf values for carbon fiber would be different? I'm guessing somewhere between aluminum and acrylic but I have no idea.I'm not sure, but I will try to get more details before I get it cut. Hopefully they can give me a ballpark quote of the kerf for the different materials.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 24 January 2015, 10:00:31
Do you know if the kerf values for carbon fiber would be different? I'm guessing somewhere between aluminum and acrylic but I have no idea.
I may be wrong but I don't think carbon fibre cuts with laser due to catching on fire and other properties. It is also very hard on milling cutters, but cuts well but loose fibres from machining pose a health and environmental hazard to be dealt with. Water jet is pretty popular from my experience.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 24 January 2015, 13:26:42
Do you know if the kerf values for carbon fiber would be different? I'm guessing somewhere between aluminum and acrylic but I have no idea.
I may be wrong but I don't think carbon fibre cuts with laser due to catching on fire and other properties. It is also very hard on milling cutters, but cuts well but loose fibres from machining pose a health and environmental hazard to be dealt with. Water jet is pretty popular from my experience.
Thanks guys. I can mold it, but I'm a total idiot when it comes to milling it.
So will these files work for water jet cutting?
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:12:05
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 January 2015, 21:14:19
Should, but the kerf for waterjet is much larger than laser so that would need to be compensated for.Luckily we have fully configurable kerf settings now.
On that note, everything has been updated in my tool to reflect the kerf settings. Tonight I added the kerf setting calculation to the overall outside dimensions of the plate as well as the mount holes and their placement. The kerf settings are now addressed on all cutout edges supported by the tool.
I am traveling for work all week next week. I am going to see if I can get the sample plate cut completely remotely while I am out of town, but we will see. I just saw on the companies website I was planning to use that they don't laser metal (only CNC). I could get the acrylic done there though. I will check with other shops before I decide what I will do. I may put up what I have so people can play and I will just put a disclaimer that the cutouts are untested.
Post by: Dihedral on Sun, 25 January 2015, 03:13:49
Should, but the kerf for waterjet is much larger than laser so that would need to be compensated for.Luckily we have fully configurable kerf settings now.
On that note, everything has been updated in my tool to reflect the kerf settings. Tonight I added the kerf setting calculation to the overall outside dimensions of the plate as well as the mount holes and their placement. The kerf settings are now addressed on all cutout edges supported by the tool.
I am traveling for work all week next week. I am going to see if I can get the sample plate cut completely remotely while I am out of town, but we will see. I just saw on the companies website I was planning to use that they don't laser metal (only CNC). I could get the acrylic done there though. I will check with other shops before I decide what I will do. I may put up what I have so people can play and I will just put a disclaimer that the cutouts are untested.
You should put it up. I'd like to play with it, even if it might not actually be accurate.
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:27:02
It will take 24-48 hours for the DNS to propagate to make this link work for everyone, but the DNS has been changed to point to the tool.
I have added a disclaimer at the top noting that the switch cutouts are still untested, so be aware of that... If you cut a plate before I remove that disclaimer, you are doing so at your own risk. Haha, if you do, please let us know how it went. :P
Let me know if you have any questions, problems, etc...
Post by: sethk_ on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:36:37
ITS ALIVE: builder.swillkb.com (http://builder.swillkb.com/)Nice job, it was no easy task doing that.
It will take 24-48 hours for the DNS to propagate to make this link work for everyone, but the DNS has been changed to point to the tool.
I have added a disclaimer at the top noting that the switch cutouts are still untested, so be aware of that... If you cut a plate before I remove that disclaimer, you are doing so at your own risk. Haha, if you do, please let us know how it went. :P
Let me know if you have any questions, problems, etc...
Post by: azhdar on Sun, 25 January 2015, 15:39:16
ITS ALIVE: builder.swillkb.com (http://builder.swillkb.com/)Nice swill , will play with it soon(tm).
It will take 24-48 hours for the DNS to propagate to make this link work for everyone, but the DNS has been changed to point to the tool.
I have added a disclaimer at the top noting that the switch cutouts are still untested, so be aware of that... If you cut a plate before I remove that disclaimer, you are doing so at your own risk. Haha, if you do, please let us know how it went. :P
Let me know if you have any questions, problems, etc...
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 16:24:14
Basically the only addition is the 2mm and 3mm holes at the bottom. They start with 0.0 kerf and each section increases the kerf by 0.05mm for a final of 0.35mm kerf. Hopefully this will give me enough data for both aluminum and acrylic for normal holes as well as holes that I can tap.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:19:52
when building a 104-key plate, it doesn't truncate the plate at the top (above the numpad, to the right of the Pause key)
This is a specific use case, where the plate isn't wanted to be exactly rectangular.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:23:32
http://tinyurl.com/oga9rzu
Post by: Evo_Spec on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:35:45
ITS ALIVE: builder.swillkb.com (http://builder.swillkb.com/)
It will take 24-48 hours for the DNS to propagate to make this link work for everyone, but the DNS has been changed to point to the tool.
I have added a disclaimer at the top noting that the switch cutouts are still untested, so be aware of that... If you cut a plate before I remove that disclaimer, you are doing so at your own risk. Haha, if you do, please let us know how it went. :P
Let me know if you have any questions, problems, etc...
Sweet..... i'm already fiddling with it =)
Thanks so much for doing this.
I think this will be my first piece
http://tinyurl.com/oga9rzu
The link doesn't work for me.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:36:33
ITS ALIVE: builder.swillkb.com (http://builder.swillkb.com/)
It will take 24-48 hours for the DNS to propagate to make this link work for everyone, but the DNS has been changed to point to the tool.
I have added a disclaimer at the top noting that the switch cutouts are still untested, so be aware of that... If you cut a plate before I remove that disclaimer, you are doing so at your own risk. Haha, if you do, please let us know how it went. :P
Let me know if you have any questions, problems, etc...
Sweet..... i'm already fiddling with it =)
Thanks so much for doing this.I think this will be my first piece
http://tinyurl.com/oga9rzu
The link doesn't work for me.
Code: [Select]
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=Esc&_x:1%3B&=F1&=F2&=F3&=F4&_x:2.25%3B&=Num%20Lock&=Delete&=%2F%2F&=*&=-&_x:1.75%3B&=F5&=F6&=F7&=F8&_x:0.5%3B&=F9&=F10&=F11&=F12%3B&@_y:0.5%3B&=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&_x:1.25%3B&=Home&=7%0AHome&=8%0A%E2%86%91&=9%0APgUp&=PgUp&_x:2.25%3B&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&_x:1.75%3B&=End&=4%0A%E2%86%90&=5&=6%0A%E2%86%92&=PgDn&_x:1.75%3B&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&_x:1.5&h:2%3B&=+&=1%0AEnd&=2%0A%E2%86%93&=3%0APgDn&_h:2%3B&=Enter&_x:2%3B&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&_x:3%3B&=0%0AIns&=%E2%86%91&=.%0ADel&_x:2.5%3B&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.5%3B&=Alt&_w:6.25%3B&=&=%E2%86%90&=%E2%86%93&=%E2%86%92&_w:6.25%3B&=&_w:1.5%3B&=Alt&=Win&=Menu&_w:1.5%3B&=Ctrl
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:38:15
The only issue I can see so far is...I had not thought of this use case. Is there a specific case you are referring to that has that setup?
when building a 104-key plate, it doesn't truncate the plate at the top (above the numpad, to the right of the Pause key)
This is a specific use case, where the plate isn't wanted to be exactly rectangular.
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:41:22
I think this will be my first pieceCrazy. Haha. :)
http://tinyurl.com/oga9rzu
Why not 4 unit spacebars? You can only get them from SP in SA, but might be something to consider to bring the size down a bit (if that was something you wanted to do).
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:42:16
The only issue I can see so far is...I had not thought of this use case. Is there a specific case you are referring to that has that setup?
when building a 104-key plate, it doesn't truncate the plate at the top (above the numpad, to the right of the Pause key)
This is a specific use case, where the plate isn't wanted to be exactly rectangular.
Most 104-key keyboards, Filco, Rosewill, etc, have this area of the plate cut out. It's where the controller electronics are normally located, instead of, as in a TKL, the area above the cursor arrows.
(http://i.imgur.com/5AVDj5W.png)
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:42:47
I think this will be my first piece
http://tinyurl.com/oga9rzu
The link doesn't work for me.
Strange. That link worked for me.
Post by: Evo_Spec on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:45:22
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:46:05
Ahhh. Gotcha. I have not taken apart a full sized, so I did not realize that. Yes, when I do the mount hole support for existing full sized cases, I will add this cutout to that case type. I will slowly add case types with specific mount hole locations and static sized plates and you will basically be able to work in those constraints.The only issue I can see so far is...I had not thought of this use case. Is there a specific case you are referring to that has that setup?
when building a 104-key plate, it doesn't truncate the plate at the top (above the numpad, to the right of the Pause key)
This is a specific use case, where the plate isn't wanted to be exactly rectangular.
Most 104-key keyboards, Filco, Rosewill, etc, have this area of the plate cut out. It's where the controller electronics are normally located, instead of, as in a TKL, the area above the cursor arrows.
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:46:52
Works on my phone for some reason....Oh. Haha. I am currently on my phone. I have not checked on my putter.
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:48:39
Post by: Evo_Spec on Sun, 25 January 2015, 23:01:04
(http://puu.sh/f2woD/140f23d9b0.png)
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 23:05:29
The ergodox plate looks sexy! lolShow Image(http://puu.sh/f2woD/140f23d9b0.png)
Haha, ergodox is not (yet) supported as you just found out. I have not even looked at solving for rotated groups (although I do have the building blocks in place to handle it when I do look at it). I also have spend some more time looking into the 'absolute positioning' stuff that the keyboard layout editor can do because right now I am building everything using relative positioning (how most of the keyboard-layout-editor works), but that tool also allows for keys to be absolute positioned, which I need to spend some time figuring out how to support. Both of the thumb clusters of the ergodox layout are absolute positioned, so you can see how poorly I am handling that right now. :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 23:08:20
The ergodox plate looks sexy! lolShow Image(http://puu.sh/f2woD/140f23d9b0.png)
Other than the initial switch cutout in the top left of both hands, I am actually very surprised how well the alphas are supported. Thats makes me happy. It should not be too difficult for me to get the alphas working well for the dox. Then I just need to add rotational groups and absolute positioning and I will be rollin.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 25 January 2015, 23:10:59
Thanks for all your hard work, swill!
Post by: swill on Sun, 25 January 2015, 23:31:23
Apart from the crazy non-rectangular stuff, it seems the tool is very robust. This should help people get started with their plate designs.
Thanks for all your hard work, swill!
Awesome. :) BTW, if you can break it (like Evo_Spec did with the ergodox layout), let me know and I will try to get any problems resolved.
I have a few things I would like to get added in the near future:
- for the sandwich case, make all the different layers available. switch plate, closed layer, open layer (for usb plug) and bottom plate.
- add the ability for people to link to their build with all of the metadata filled in and the plate already built.
- break out the x and y padding values into 4 values for top, bottom, left, right... this will allow for you to put more padding on say the bottom of the plate, but keep the other 3 sides consistent with a padding value. i have to modify the way I place my sandwhich case holes though if I do this since I am putting the holes in the center of the padding and that won't look good.
- start adding support for more case types with their respective mount holes. I will probably start with the smaller cases like the poker case to get started and then work my way up through TKL and such... for the TKL, I may just do a universal one that handles all the different mount holes, but we will see...
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 26 January 2015, 02:06:31
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 26 January 2015, 10:32:18
Post by: pober on Mon, 26 January 2015, 18:25:37
Post by: byker on Mon, 26 January 2015, 19:23:12
Post by: Dee1 on Wed, 28 January 2015, 23:47:34
Post by: gogusrl on Thu, 29 January 2015, 05:33:04
Post by: pober on Thu, 29 January 2015, 12:22:32
Dumb question : how do I convert one of those 3 files to dwg ?
I found this http://www.cadforum.cz/catalog_en/stl2dwg.asp (http://www.cadforum.cz/catalog_en/stl2dwg.asp) online converter. I have not tested it myself, though.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 29 January 2015, 12:26:48
Post by: swill on Fri, 30 January 2015, 07:05:06
Or you can open in FreeCAD, and export to .dwg or .dxf
Make sure you are using FreeCAD from source to do this because there is a bug with 'fillets' in FreeCAD 14 for this. Basically, the fillets in opposing corners are actually drawn inside the plate when you export to .dxf. You will need to build FreeCAD from source because this issue has been fixed upstream, but it has not been released in a package yet. When it is released in a package I will allow for exporting of .dxf. It is slated for the end of Feb right now that it would be released...
Post by: swill on Fri, 30 January 2015, 07:09:09
Dumb question : how do I convert one of those 3 files to dwg ?
The three files are all the same file, but just in different formats. As JD mentioned, you can use FreeCAD, but you will have to build from source since there is a fix to an issue with fillets upstream that is not available yet which fixes the rounded corners.
If you don't use rounded corners, then yes just using FreeCAD 14 is the easiest way...
Post by: phishy on Mon, 02 February 2015, 13:56:33
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 02 February 2015, 13:58:06
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
I think BigBlueSaw will? You could always check around your area for shops or makerspaces as well.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 02 February 2015, 14:07:24
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
I think BigBlueSaw will? You could always check around your area for shops or makerspaces as well.
Also, Pololu.com has stainless steel now, not sure about aluminum.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Tue, 03 February 2015, 07:48:36
I want to save on cuts, and have less gaps for food and bugs to crawl in...and instant noodle soup...
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 09:31:03
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:14:43
Well i sent it out to bigbluesaw. Just waiting for a response back with price.
I forgot to mention this earlier. I would recommend putting at least a kerf value of 0.05mm. I would ask them what the expected kerf value is for cutting and adjust according to that. If they say that kerf is about 0.1mm, then maybe set it to 0.075mm or something like that. You should definitely account for kerf in the drawing though. Sorry I don't have real numbers for you yet...
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:15:31
Are there cutouts for only costar stabs?
I want to save on cuts, and have less gaps for food and bugs to crawl in...and instant noodle soup...
No, right now I only support a combined stabilizer cutout. I could potentially offer just a costar stab cutout, but it won't happen before the end of the week...
Post by: bueller on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:18:59
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:19:42
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
Glad my work has brought someone out of lurker status. :) Welcome...
This is a great community, but hold on tight to your wallet. Wallethack is real...
[attachimg=1]
Or the simplified version...
[attachimg=2]
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:27:30
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:37:02
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
Glad my work has brought someone out of lurker status. :) Welcome...
This is a great community, but hold on tight to your wallet. Wallethack is real...
(Attachment Link)
Or the simplified version...
(Attachment Link)
Why are you selecting the last item from wants? I think surely you should buy the item you've wanted the longest, i.e. the item at index[0]. Also, surely if the pay period is 10 days but it is 1 day before your pay period, you wouldn't be able to buy more keyboards and stuff for a whole 9 days after your pay packet. The travesty! Why am I code reviewing a piece of joke code... je suis bored.
Post by: possumgumbo on Tue, 03 February 2015, 11:59:04
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8)
but it staggered the top function row to the left, instead of the columnar arrangement I had designed in the layout designer. The right side is also cut off prematurely.
What can I do to remedy this? Thanks for the excellent tool, by the way. With a little tweaking, this will be the greatest prototyping tool ever!
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:05:20
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
Glad my work has brought someone out of lurker status. :) Welcome...
This is a great community, but hold on tight to your wallet. Wallethack is real...
(Attachment Link)
Or the simplified version...
(Attachment Link)
Why are you selecting the last item from wants? I think surely you should buy the item you've wanted the longest, i.e. the item at index[0]. Also, surely if the pay period is 10 days but it is 1 day before your pay period, you wouldn't be able to buy more keyboards and stuff for a whole 9 days after your pay packet. The travesty! Why am I code reviewing a piece of joke code... je suis bored.
haha, there are a few things 'wrong' with that code from a correctness perspective. I actually wrote it very quickly to illustrate a point. :)
technically i should be looping through all of the 'wants' from the first item in the list and checking if i can afford anything. however, the problem with this is if i want to buy something that costs more than what i get paid for in a single pay period i will never afford it because i will be reducing my funds on little things every month and not actually accumulating enough funds for my big ticket item. hmm, working in a budget into my wallethack algorithm seems a bit disingenuous to the actual problem. the reason wallethack exists is because we buy things without always budgeting for them... oh the paradox of geekhack... :P
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:10:01
I actually 3D printed the layout here,
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8)
but it staggered the top function row to the left, instead of the columnar arrangement I had designed in the layout designer. The right side is also cut off prematurely.
What can I do to remedy this? Thanks for the excellent tool, by the way. With a little tweaking, this will be the greatest prototyping tool ever!
Yes, I am aware of some issues when working with layouts that do not have rows of keys one below the next. I have to look at the code to understand why the layout is failing on these layouts.
This is what you experienced right?
[attachimg=1]
I will look into this. Thanks for letting me know. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:17:33
I actually 3D printed the layout here,
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8)
but it staggered the top function row to the left, instead of the columnar arrangement I had designed in the layout designer. The right side is also cut off prematurely.
What can I do to remedy this? Thanks for the excellent tool, by the way. With a little tweaking, this will be the greatest prototyping tool ever!
I modified the 'x' and 'y' offsets on the first column and row to put them up to the edge. I then tested it and it worked better. You can adding that padding using the actual padding feature in my tool if you want it.
Here is my version of your layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b90aac02cbfd2217364f2ad8b55a600d
Here is the result:
[attachimg=1]
I will look into why the 'x' at the start of the line is not working correctly.
Thanks for pointing this out to me...
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:30:37
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
Glad my work has brought someone out of lurker status. :) Welcome...
This is a great community, but hold on tight to your wallet. Wallethack is real...
(Attachment Link)
Or the simplified version...
(Attachment Link)
Why are you selecting the last item from wants? I think surely you should buy the item you've wanted the longest, i.e. the item at index[0]. Also, surely if the pay period is 10 days but it is 1 day before your pay period, you wouldn't be able to buy more keyboards and stuff for a whole 9 days after your pay packet. The travesty! Why am I code reviewing a piece of joke code... je suis bored.
haha, there are a few things 'wrong' with that code from a correctness perspective. I actually wrote it very quickly to illustrate a point. :)
technically i should be looping through all of the 'wants' from the first item in the list and checking if i can afford anything. however, the problem with this is if i want to buy something that costs more than what i get paid for in a single pay period i will never afford it because i will be reducing my funds on little things every month and not actually accumulating enough funds for my big ticket item. hmm, working in a budget into my wallethack algorithm seems a bit disingenuous to the actual problem. the reason wallethack exists is because we buy things without always budgeting for them... oh the paradox of geekhack... :P
Yeah, I wasn't criticising you for writing bad code when it was just for a joke. I thought it was pretty funny, but I was just bored enough to nit-pick it :)
Though I can tell you're a hardcore pythoner, those pythonic 'and' statements :D
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:35:56
So I've been lurking and signed up because of this thread. Awesome resources man, really appreciate the website. With that said I want to be the test dummy for this CAD file. Any suggestions on an online company that can cut aluminum?
Glad my work has brought someone out of lurker status. :) Welcome...
This is a great community, but hold on tight to your wallet. Wallethack is real...
(Attachment Link)
Or the simplified version...
(Attachment Link)
Why are you selecting the last item from wants? I think surely you should buy the item you've wanted the longest, i.e. the item at index[0]. Also, surely if the pay period is 10 days but it is 1 day before your pay period, you wouldn't be able to buy more keyboards and stuff for a whole 9 days after your pay packet. The travesty! Why am I code reviewing a piece of joke code... je suis bored.
haha, there are a few things 'wrong' with that code from a correctness perspective. I actually wrote it very quickly to illustrate a point. :)
technically i should be looping through all of the 'wants' from the first item in the list and checking if i can afford anything. however, the problem with this is if i want to buy something that costs more than what i get paid for in a single pay period i will never afford it because i will be reducing my funds on little things every month and not actually accumulating enough funds for my big ticket item. hmm, working in a budget into my wallethack algorithm seems a bit disingenuous to the actual problem. the reason wallethack exists is because we buy things without always budgeting for them... oh the paradox of geekhack... :P
Yeah, I wasn't criticising you for writing bad code when it was just for a joke. I thought it was pretty funny, but I was just bored enough to nit-pick it :)
Though I can tell you're a hardcore pythoner, those pythonic 'and' statements :D
I know. I was just playing. :) I love the 'and' and 'in' statements. So easy to read...
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:57:30
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 03 February 2015, 12:59:09
It's crazy how hard of a time I'm having getting any of these companies to contact me back with pricing. Some folks just don't want to make money i suppose.
They don't make a lot of money doing one offs so a lot of companies won't reply or offer up ridiculous prices. Setup time, programming, paying the machinist's wages, etc costs a lot.
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:00:19
It's crazy how hard of a time I'm having getting any of these companies to contact me back with pricing. Some folks just don't want to make money i suppose.
Which companies?
Most metal shops do NOT want to deal with one-offs for a first time customer. 90% of them won't even respond to you. It's not about making money for them, they feel like they are wasting their time if you're not ordering multiple units, and on a regular basis.
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:04:29
It's crazy how hard of a time I'm having getting any of these companies to contact me back with pricing. Some folks just don't want to make money i suppose.
I am having the same problem. I am trying to get my test plate cut and I can't get anyone to return my emails... :(
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:07:22
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:15:01
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:20:42
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:12:13
I take back what I said. Bigbluesaw got back in touch with me and even made the CAD file with a blank bottom plate with just the 3mm holes for a sandwich style case. for 1 set of both parts its $92 If I get 5 sets of both plates though its only 44.92 So its either order one for the price I could get 2 for if I order 5 to test out the tool, or I get 5 sets and pray that its all right and then have materials to build 5 keyboards if I want. Also let me add that this is using 6061 aluminum .063" thick. I'm waiting back to find out how much kerf will be expected so I can adjust accordingly.
Man they are quick getting back. He said they automatically adjust for kerf when cutting parts.
Awesome... Did you tell them that you designed your plate using my tool? About 20 minutes ago I got a small donation through the plate building tool from Big Blue Saw. Apparently they know my plate building too exists now. :)
So did you leave the kerf value as 0.0 when you built the plate and you will just let them to adjust as needed?
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:24:44
And yeah I left kerf at 0. He did mention that because of kerf any sharp corners will be slightly rounded, shouldn't cause an issue with these plates though, no?
Heres the top plate and bottom plate.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png.html)
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:31:34
Yes I sent him a link to your tool, told him folks will probably be using it on a regular basis and also linked him to the artisans part of the forum as well as this thread.
And yeah I left kerf at 0. He did mention that because of kerf any sharp corners will be slightly rounded, shouldn't cause an issue with these plates though, no?
Heres the top plate and bottom plate.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png.html)
Cool. Thanks. :) I don't think the slight rounding will cause a problem as long as it is minimal.
On a side note. I do love the FC660 layout. Good choice. I have that layout at work. :)
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:38:09
Post by: TD22057 on Tue, 03 February 2015, 15:06:32
Man they are quick getting back. He said they automatically adjust for kerf when cutting parts.
I'd be careful about that. I just had big blue saw cut a case for my keyboard out of acrylic (3mm top, .75" mid, 3mm bottom) and it came out pretty far off which I assume is because of kerf issues. It's like they cut the inside cutout on the outside of my line so the opening for the keyboard top plate was much larger than I expected. I also tried to use .75" acrylic for the center layer and it varied in thickness across a 6" span from 3/4" to 3/4+3/32 which is insane. It turned into a big waste of money.
I expect thin metal will be better but I wouldn't discount kerf issues and peoples understanding of what the plans are trying to convey...
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 15:16:41
Man they are quick getting back. He said they automatically adjust for kerf when cutting parts.
I'd be careful about that. I just had big blue saw cut a case for my keyboard out of acrylic (3mm top, .75" mid, 3mm bottom) and it came out pretty far off which I assume is because of kerf issues. It's like they cut the inside cutout on the outside of my line so the opening for the keyboard top plate was much larger than I expected. I also tried to use .75" acrylic for the center layer and it varied in thickness across a 6" span from 3/4" to 3/4+3/32 which is insane. It turned into a big waste of money.
I expect thin metal will be better but I wouldn't discount kerf issues and peoples understanding of what the plans are trying to convey...
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think kerf is a bit tricker of an issue with complex cuts than people expect. The kerf does not always behave the same depending on where the different cutout and such is around the shape. Sometimes you add kerf/2 and other times you delete kerf/2. I built this tool to account for kerf so we can try to mitigate these problems, but I still have to get my test plates cut to know for sure. I will get them cut in acrylic first since I think I can find a shop to do that for me. Unfortunately I need my stuff done in aluminum or stainless steel because I will be using the enabler pcbs.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 03 February 2015, 15:19:32
Post by: possumgumbo on Tue, 03 February 2015, 16:17:44
I actually 3D printed the layout here,
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41278b39d92833e044007ab46bb8a9f8)
but it staggered the top function row to the left, instead of the columnar arrangement I had designed in the layout designer. The right side is also cut off prematurely.
What can I do to remedy this? Thanks for the excellent tool, by the way. With a little tweaking, this will be the greatest prototyping tool ever!
I modified the 'x' and 'y' offsets on the first column and row to put them up to the edge. I then tested it and it worked better. You can adding that padding using the actual padding feature in my tool if you want it.
Here is my version of your layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b90aac02cbfd2217364f2ad8b55a600d
Here is the result:
(Attachment Link)
I will look into why the 'x' at the start of the line is not working correctly.
Thanks for pointing this out to me...
Thanks a bunch, man! I really appreciate developers interfacing so quickly with their communities. My 3-D printed prototypes have been a big hit here at the office, and I can't wait to get the final product finished.
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 16:20:48
If you are testing cutouts from the tool I would suggest either stainless or aluminum if the purpose is to test the accuracy of the tool. Laser cutting acrylic is not near as precise as aluminum or stainless.Ya my goal is to test with both acrylic and aluminum, but I need to find a local shop who does aluminum who will return my emails. :)
Post by: phishy on Tue, 03 February 2015, 18:37:54
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 February 2015, 19:04:24
Alright so I'm going to pull the trigger with big blue saw and have faith in this mans ability to do this right. It'd be best for him if it works out because he'd be able to drum up some more business.Maybe mention to him that my tool will automatically account for kerf if we know how big it is. He may not be used to that.
Let us know how it goes. :)
Post by: Evo_Spec on Tue, 03 February 2015, 19:10:28
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Wed, 04 February 2015, 01:03:33
Are there cutouts for only costar stabs?
I want to save on cuts, and have less gaps for food and bugs to crawl in...and instant noodle soup...
No, right now I only support a combined stabilizer cutout. I could potentially offer just a costar stab cutout, but it won't happen before the end of the week...
That would be cool. ;D
If not, I could try to it have it changed on the CAD manually.
I understand that this might be a one off thing just for a weirdo like me lol XD
Post by: phishy on Wed, 04 February 2015, 09:06:21
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 February 2015, 10:25:45
So I've been going back and forth with Simon over at bigbluesaw to make sure we can make this happen. I sent him the data sheet on cherry switches (with tolerances allowed) and I'm also going to send a few spare plate mount switches his way so they can do a test fit before they cut out an entire plate and adjust accordingly. He's definitely going way out of his way to help me out.Ya. I have also been in touch with him as well. I think he sees value in catering to our needs here at GH, which is pretty awesome. If we can get the details sorted out so we can confidently use their services and know what settings and such to build our cads with, they will be a great resource for us.
Post by: phishy on Wed, 04 February 2015, 10:30:53
Post by: bueller on Wed, 04 February 2015, 10:31:25
So I've been going back and forth with Simon over at bigbluesaw to make sure we can make this happen. I sent him the data sheet on cherry switches (with tolerances allowed) and I'm also going to send a few spare plate mount switches his way so they can do a test fit before they cut out an entire plate and adjust accordingly. He's definitely going way out of his way to help me out.
That's great! Sounds like they could be a valuable resource in the future :)
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 04 February 2015, 11:39:44
I'd be careful about that. I just had big blue saw cut a case for my keyboard out of acrylic (3mm top, .75" mid, 3mm bottom) and it came out pretty far off which I assume is because of kerf issues. It's like they cut the inside cutout on the outside of my line so the opening for the keyboard top plate was much larger than I expected. I also tried to use .75" acrylic for the center layer and it varied in thickness across a 6" span from 3/4" to 3/4+3/32 which is insane. It turned into a big waste of money.
Did you ever contact us about this?
Post by: bueller on Wed, 04 February 2015, 11:41:53
I'd be careful about that. I just had big blue saw cut a case for my keyboard out of acrylic (3mm top, .75" mid, 3mm bottom) and it came out pretty far off which I assume is because of kerf issues. It's like they cut the inside cutout on the outside of my line so the opening for the keyboard top plate was much larger than I expected. I also tried to use .75" acrylic for the center layer and it varied in thickness across a 6" span from 3/4" to 3/4+3/32 which is insane. It turned into a big waste of money.
Did you ever contact us about this?
Welcome to GH!
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 04 February 2015, 11:42:11
That's great! Sounds like they could be a valuable resource in the future :)
Feel free to post any questions!
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 04 February 2015, 11:45:29
Maybe mention to him that my tool will automatically account for kerf if we know how big it is. He may not be used to that.
One tricky part is that the kerf on the waterjet varies as the nozzle wears away. That's why it's best to let us compensate for kerf and do test fittings.
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 February 2015, 12:20:07
Maybe mention to him that my tool will automatically account for kerf if we know how big it is. He may not be used to that.
One tricky part is that the kerf on the waterjet varies as the nozzle wears away. That's why it's best to let us compensate for kerf and do test fittings.
Welcome to GeekHack. :)
Thank you for jumping in and joining the conversation, your input is going to be VERY valuable around here. Good point about the nozzle wear, I had not thought of that.
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 04 February 2015, 12:34:45
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 04 February 2015, 14:16:44
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 04 February 2015, 14:40:33
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 February 2015, 17:26:01
In the future, (provided PCB and other hardware work out, is there a chance of being able to adapt this tool to make F type plates?
How are F type plates different? Can you link and image or something so I can see what would be involved in supporting it?
Post by: phishy on Wed, 04 February 2015, 22:19:55
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2babf7aa43f2738e65fd00fdbc84e609
Post by: neverused on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:32:12
Now if I could only find a way to get keycaps like this made...You could try WASD keyboards, they have a template that your can download and design your keycaps in Adobe Illustrator I think...
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2babf7aa43f2738e65fd00fdbc84e609
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 05 February 2015, 07:38:20
Add that to the list of 'moments when you wish you were in the US' on GH.
Just e-mail me at the address on the website if you need international shipping.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 05 February 2015, 07:42:14
Perhaps you want to register as a vendorHow do I do that?
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 05 February 2015, 07:46:17
According to this thread : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67376.0Perhaps you want to register as a vendorHow do I do that?
you need to contact admins about it.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 05 February 2015, 08:47:00
Now if I could only find a way to get keycaps like this made...You could try WASD keyboards, they have a template that your can download and design your keycaps in Adobe Illustrator I think...
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2babf7aa43f2738e65fd00fdbc84e609
I've looked there but I'm not a fan of any of the color options they have.
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 05 February 2015, 10:01:20
Post by: swill on Thu, 05 February 2015, 14:48:36
Add that to the list of 'moments when you wish you were in the US' on GH.
Just e-mail me at the address on the website if you need international shipping.
Hey BigBlueSaw, what are your shipping costs to the UK? I can't find them online.Email him as per his instructions and he will get you those detail. :)
Post by: hwood34 on Thu, 05 February 2015, 15:03:56
What's this problem I've been having? Here's (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d2ac55b0ee0df352b8b09e236c2bb6bc) the layout
Post by: phishy on Thu, 05 February 2015, 15:19:57
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5thgI6k.png)
What's this problem I've been having? Here's (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d2ac55b0ee0df352b8b09e236c2bb6bc) the layout
You have to paste the RAW DATA from the layout editor. For yours it would be this.
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: swill on Thu, 05 February 2015, 15:38:06
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5thgI6k.png)
What's this problem I've been having? Here's (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d2ac55b0ee0df352b8b09e236c2bb6bc) the layout
Geez dude, read the instructions... :P Haha, I am totally joking and just messing with you. Yes, like phishy said, you need to paste in the Raw Data for your layout. You can then modify the raw data if you need to. Click the "?" next to that field to get more details of what types of things you can change by modifying the raw data in my tool... Let me know if you have questions. I am not actually an ass and will do my best to answer any questions. :)
Post by: hwood34 on Thu, 05 February 2015, 16:49:02
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5thgI6k.png)
What's this problem I've been having? Here's (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d2ac55b0ee0df352b8b09e236c2bb6bc) the layout
Geez dude, read the instructions... :P Haha, I am totally joking and just messing with you. Yes, like phishy said, you need to paste in the Raw Data for your layout. You can then modify the raw data if you need to. Click the "?" next to that field to get more details of what types of things you can change by modifying the raw data in my tool... Let me know if you have questions. I am not actually an ass and will do my best to answer any questions. :)
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5thgI6k.png)
What's this problem I've been having? Here's (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d2ac55b0ee0df352b8b09e236c2bb6bc) the layout
You have to paste the RAW DATA from the layout editor. For yours it would be this.
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Aha, thanks!
Post by: phishy on Fri, 06 February 2015, 20:17:49
Post by: hwood34 on Mon, 09 February 2015, 22:17:49
"Hi Harwood,
The keyboard plate building tool should have vector export soon; let's wait for that. It makes it much easier to give a quote/make the part."
I quickly searched through the thread and couldn't find anything about this, is that in progress now?
Post by: phishy on Mon, 09 February 2015, 22:26:42
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 09 February 2015, 23:09:12
I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
Post by: swill on Mon, 09 February 2015, 23:27:09
So I got this email back from big blue saw regarding a quote using this:
"Hi Harwood,
The keyboard plate building tool should have vector export soon; let's wait for that. It makes it much easier to give a quote/make the part."
I quickly searched through the thread and couldn't find anything about this, is that in progress now?
Yes, I am working on this. I should be able to support the DXF format as long as you don't use rounded corners on the plate. Currently there is a bug in the DXF export lib which draws two of the 4 rounded corners correctly and two as circle cutouts in the corner of the plate. I am doing some testing with the nightly builds of the cad core to see if I can get this working. Hopefully I will have this out soon. There are complications with the fact that I am not using a GUI as well, so I have to patch the DXF library just to be able to use it. In short, I am working on it... :)
For now, if you create a layout without rounded corners in my builder and then open it in FreeCAD and export as DXF it will work.
Post by: swill on Mon, 09 February 2015, 23:43:14
I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
Post by: phishy on Tue, 10 February 2015, 06:46:19
I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 10 February 2015, 09:45:03
I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. What hole style are you using.
Post by: possumgumbo on Tue, 10 February 2015, 10:01:53
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Post by: phishy on Tue, 10 February 2015, 10:08:55
I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. What hole style are you using.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/domp_zpsbgayr3lc.png.html)
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 10:55:44
Just wanted to let everyone know that the CAD files produced from the tool make perfectly viable plates on my friend's Solidoodle V3 3D Printer.
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Ok, thats ****ing awesome. Well done dude. Thanks for sharing back your experience. This is really cool to see. :) Love that people are already trying 3d printing of this stuff. :) Did you use the STP file?
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 10 February 2015, 12:51:43
Just wanted to let everyone know that the CAD files produced from the tool make perfectly viable plates on my friend's Solidoodle V3 3D Printer.
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Ok, thats ****ing awesome. Well done dude. Thanks for sharing back your experience. This is really cool to see. :) Love that people are already trying 3d printing of this stuff. :) Did you use the STP file?
HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH!
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 12:56:55
Are you having him ship back the switches after? I am going to desolder some alps switches from one of my boards and send them to him as well as some different stabilizers for him to keep so he can verify mating on all subsequent orders from us. If he is sending back your switches, I will also send him some MX switches.I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:00:08
Just wanted to let everyone know that the CAD files produced from the tool make perfectly viable plates on my friend's Solidoodle V3 3D Printer.Just out of curiosity. What would you estimate the cost of that prototype was? I don't know why, but I am obsessed with bringing down the cost of prototyping. That was one of the main motivations of my 'minimal case'. It probably stems from my big imagination and small amount of disposable income I can justify for this hobby.
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Post by: phishy on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:03:59
Are you having him ship back the switches after? I am going to desolder some alps switches from one of my boards and send them to him as well as some different stabilizers for him to keep so he can verify mating on all subsequent orders from us. If he is sending back your switches, I will also send him some MX switches.I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
No I'm going to let him keep them. I'm sending 10 switches, which is like 4 bucks worth. This way he has plenty around to spot check the cuts for everyone going forward. Do you know when you plan on sending some stabilizers? If not before I place an order for my plate, maybe I'll just buy a few extra and send them out to him.
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:09:36
I should be able to get them out in the next couple days. I have to find some time to desolder some switches from my alps board to give him since I don't have any loose alps switches.Are you having him ship back the switches after? I am going to desolder some alps switches from one of my boards and send them to him as well as some different stabilizers for him to keep so he can verify mating on all subsequent orders from us. If he is sending back your switches, I will also send him some MX switches.I believe swill and bigbluesaw have been having conversations behind the scenes. Curious to see what comes out of this collaboration. ^_^
Now this is now hype I can get on board with.
:) Yes, bigbluesaw and I have been exchanging emails to try to simplify the process for everyone from design to finished product. We have been focusing mainly on finding ways for us to have predictable and repeatable results that are within our tolerances. The main complication with this is the nozzle wear in the waterjet process. The same design could produce different results because the kerf size will be different depending on the nozzle wear.
At this point we have not come up with a definitive solution, but he is able to make parts to fit if he has the mating piece. I may just have to stock him with both MX and Alps switches and some stabilizers that he can use for reference.
The laser cutting process is more predictable, but that process is only available for acrylic in this case.
We are working to try to make sure that people using the tool and their services will get the expected results without having to break their brains over it. :)
I'm heading to the post office today to send out 5-10 MX switches to him. Hopefully this well help in the whole process. I didn't even think about stabilizers though. Have yet to order any for my own build so maybe I'll grab a few extra and get those over aswell.
No I'm going to let him keep them. I'm sending 10 switches, which is like 4 bucks worth. This way he has plenty around to spot check the cuts for everyone going forward. Do you know when you plan on sending some stabilizers? If not before I place an order for my plate, maybe I'll just buy a few extra and send them out to him.
I have some PCB and plate mounted cherry stabs, but I will have to take apart my QFR and steal some costar stabs from it to send him since I don't have any of them available either.
I should be able to get them out soon.
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:12:43
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:53:08
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:02:13
Hey swill I tried using your tool, it created an accurate plate design but when I imported it into autodesk inventor it said the length was 173in long. Any fixes?
When importing, choose the dimension metric as mm.
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:03:27
Hey swill I tried using your tool, it created an accurate plate design but when I imported it into autodesk inventor it said the length was 173in long. Any fixes?
When importing, choose the dimension metric as mm.
duh *facepalm*, thanks :thumb:
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:30:13
Hey swill I tried using your tool, it created an accurate plate design but when I imported it into autodesk inventor it said the length was 173in long. Any fixes?
When importing, choose the dimension metric as mm.
duh *facepalm*, thanks :thumb:
Haha. That would have probably taken me a little while to figure out as well. :)
Thanks Moz for the quick response to get him sorted. :P
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 17:12:00
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: byker on Tue, 10 February 2015, 17:19:28
Post by: phishy on Tue, 10 February 2015, 18:00:54
Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 19:38:18
I am confident that if he has the switches and stabs that everything will work out well.Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
I think the more complicated stuff like determining what machining processes we can tweak to bring down costs will happen a bit more slowly since we will have to do some testing.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 10 February 2015, 21:25:50
I am confident that if he has the switches and stabs that everything will work out well.Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
I think the more complicated stuff like determining what machining processes we can tweak to bring down costs will happen a bit more slowly since we will have to do some testing.
Scraps from the back of the shear make great test plates.
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 21:43:41
Good tip. Thx. :)I am confident that if he has the switches and stabs that everything will work out well.Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
I think the more complicated stuff like determining what machining processes we can tweak to bring down costs will happen a bit more slowly since we will have to do some testing.
Scraps from the back of the shear make great test plates.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 10 February 2015, 22:16:55
Good tip. Thx. :)I am confident that if he has the switches and stabs that everything will work out well.Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
I think the more complicated stuff like determining what machining processes we can tweak to bring down costs will happen a bit more slowly since we will have to do some testing.
Scraps from the back of the shear make great test plates.
Not a problem, that is how I got my stainless for less than a dollar a pound when anywhere I was looking at was going to charge me over 3 per pound.
Post by: swill on Tue, 10 February 2015, 22:17:45
Ya. That makes total sense.Good tip. Thx. :)I am confident that if he has the switches and stabs that everything will work out well.Small status update...
As you guys know, I have been back and forth with BigBlueSaw quite a bit recently. They have been great to work with. They have been very responsive and are genuinely interested in working with us and solving our specific problems. I have pointed them to some MX and Alps switches as well as Costar stabilizers which they have purchased so they have units to do spot checking and validation of cutouts. I will be sending them both Plate and PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers so they have a complete set of components as reference when working on our projects.
I love that they are proactive and are purchasing the mating components that we rely on so they can guarantee a quality service for us. That is above and beyond in my opinion and it really shows that they are serious about working together.
We have also been discussing pricing quite a bit and we are trying to find ways to reduce costs wherever we can. I have shared my back-of-the-napkin calculations for the cost of the different switch cutouts [1], and he agrees that it seems pretty acurate as a relative cost of the different cutouts. It is good to get some validation on those assumptions. He suggested that we could potentially save some cost by linking the switches together (not stopping cutting and moving from one switch cutout to the next while continuing to cut). This will reduce the machining time because, as he says, "having the cutting head shut off, traverse to the next hole, switch back on to pierce the hole, then move to the cutting edge all takes time". I commented that we may be able to do that between switches on the same row, but I was concerned that we may lose some structure and rigidity if we did that. I think it also depends a bit on the material. He agreed that it is probably not realistic for a whole row. We will have to run some tests to see how many switches in a row we can link and not compromise structure. We still do not know what the cost savings will be, but we do expect to be able save on costs by doing this.
I think thats pretty much it. It has been great working with them, very proactive and engaged. Good news for everyone... :)
On my side. I am still working on getting the DXF format supported. I have run into a couple bugs in the core software. I am continuing to patch and develop workarounds for the problems, so hopefully I will have some good news on that soon... (back at it...)
[1]
(Attachment Link)
Awesome update man. Good to hear this is all going so well. I guess I need to get in touch with him and figure out what the plan will actually be with these plates I want cut. Was going to place the order Friday to see how it goes.
I think the more complicated stuff like determining what machining processes we can tweak to bring down costs will happen a bit more slowly since we will have to do some testing.
Scraps from the back of the shear make great test plates.
Not a problem, that is how I got my stainless for less than a dollar a pound when anywhere I was looking at was going to charge me over 3 per pound.
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 11 February 2015, 04:54:12
(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :
(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data below
Quote from: raw data
[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 06:24:22
Hey I encountered this errorI will check on that for you. It looks right.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data belowQuote from: raw data[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Side note. Why such big holes? 5mm seems quite large to me.
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 11 February 2015, 06:32:30
Just a test for the moment, I'll finish the work in CAD.Hey I encountered this errorI will check on that for you. It looks right.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data belowQuote from: raw data[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Side note. Why such big holes? 5mm seems quite large to me.
ps: tried 1mm hole doesn't work either.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 06:44:58
Ya. I was pretty sure it was not that. I was just curious cause it caught my eye.Just a test for the moment, I'll finish the work in CAD.Hey I encountered this errorI will check on that for you. It looks right.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data belowQuote from: raw data[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Side note. Why such big holes? 5mm seems quite large to me.
ps: tried 1mm hole doesn't work either.
I will check this when I am on the train this morning.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 07:04:19
Ya. I was pretty sure it was not that. I was just curious cause it caught my eye.Just a test for the moment, I'll finish the work in CAD.Hey I encountered this errorI will check on that for you. It looks right.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data belowQuote from: raw data[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Side note. Why such big holes? 5mm seems quite large to me.
ps: tried 1mm hole doesn't work either.
I will check this when I am on the train this morning.
Ok, try it again. It is working now. Some LXC workers had gotten stuck in a running state, so I ran out of resources and could not spawn new workers...
Post by: p3lim on Wed, 11 February 2015, 07:35:50
It would be wise to only parse the arrays from the raw data, basically ignoring objects (unless of course they are values of an array).
Here's an example:
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#ff0000"},
["","","","","","","","","","","",""],
[{w:1.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.75},""],
[{w:1.75},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.25},""],
[{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},"",{w:4},"",{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},""]Becomes this:
(http://i.imgur.com/nrvCZw4.png)
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 08:04:04
If the user specifies a background color in the editor and uses the raw data that contains that, your tool interprets that as a key and adds it.
It would be wise to only parse the arrays from the raw data, basically ignoring objects (unless of course they are values of an array).
Here's an example:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#ff0000"},
["","","","","","","","","","","",""],
[{w:1.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.75},""],
[{w:1.75},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.25},""],
[{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},"",{w:4},"",{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},""]
Becomes this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/nrvCZw4.png)
Haha. Thanks for reporting that behavior. I would have never found that. :)
I will add this to the list of stuff I am working on. Thanks for letting me know.
Post by: p3lim on Wed, 11 February 2015, 08:07:08
Thanks for letting me know.
Thanks for being awesome! ;D
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 11 February 2015, 08:10:44
If the user specifies a background color in the editor and uses the raw data that contains that, your tool interprets that as a key and adds it.
It would be wise to only parse the arrays from the raw data, basically ignoring objects (unless of course they are values of an array).
Here's an example:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#ff0000"},
["","","","","","","","","","","",""],
[{w:1.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.75},""],
[{w:1.75},"","","","","","","","","","",{w:1.25},""],
[{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},"",{w:4},"",{w:1.5},"","",{w:1.5},""]
Becomes this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/nrvCZw4.png)
I saw that, too, but forgot to report it.
What a cute little plate! :)
Post by: p3lim on Wed, 11 February 2015, 08:46:04
What a cute little plate! :)
After all the JD40 hype you created I'm probably going to make a 40% as my next project, here's the layout I've been messing with: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/509067fc6168ffee7a5dc185b2c9b732
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 11 February 2015, 08:48:36
Worked thanks for the quick updateYa. I was pretty sure it was not that. I was just curious cause it caught my eye.Just a test for the moment, I'll finish the work in CAD.Hey I encountered this errorI will check on that for you. It looks right.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/67dQIjR.png)
for this build :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GSdCkzg.png)
raw data belowQuote from: raw data[{y:1},"","","",""],
["","","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
["","",""],
["","","",{h:2},""],
[{w:2},"",""]
Did I made a mistake? Trying to get a plate for a 6x5 numpad.
Side note. Why such big holes? 5mm seems quite large to me.
ps: tried 1mm hole doesn't work either.
I will check this when I am on the train this morning.
Ok, try it again. It is working now. Some LXC workers had gotten stuck in a running state, so I ran out of resources and could not spawn new workers...
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:08:50
What a cute little plate! :)
After all the JD40 hype you created I'm probably going to make a 40% as my next project, here's the layout I've been messing with: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/509067fc6168ffee7a5dc185b2c9b732
Cool. :) Won't your upper and lower be bound to the same key? Wouldn't lower be accessed with just the lower key press and the upper would be accessed with 'lower + shift'? Not sure it is even possible to split those key presses because I think they are registered as the same key. Unless you program upper to be a macro which is actually 'lower + shift'.
JD will probably have a better idea on this, but that was my understanding. Which complicated the 40% layout I wanted to do a bit...
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:09:21
Ok, try it again. It is working now. Some LXC workers had gotten stuck in a running state, so I ran out of resources and could not spawn new workers...Worked thanks for the quick update
No problem. Thanks for reporting. :)
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:13:33
Cool. :) Won't your upper and lower be bound to the same key? Wouldn't lower be accessed with just the lower key press and the upper would be accessed with 'lower + shift'? Not sure it is even possible to split those key presses because I think they are registered as the same key. Unless you program upper to be a macro which is actually 'lower + shift'.
Yes, that's correct.
Post by: p3lim on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:20:26
What a cute little plate! :)
After all the JD40 hype you created I'm probably going to make a 40% as my next project, here's the layout I've been messing with: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/509067fc6168ffee7a5dc185b2c9b732
Cool. :) Won't your upper and lower be bound to the same key? Wouldn't lower be accessed with just the lower key press and the upper would be accessed with 'lower + shift'? Not sure it is even possible to split those key presses because I think they are registered as the same key. Unless you program upper to be a macro which is actually 'lower + shift'.
JD will probably have a better idea on this, but that was my understanding. Which complicated the 40% layout I wanted to do a bit...
I was planning to have them as two layers and everything on "upper" would be a modified version of the same key on the lower layer (ACTION_MODS_KEY in tmk).
But if that works it would be amazing!
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:29:38
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:36:12
It's great to have a 'community service' in bbs. Just a shame that it is US based. Still, I look forward to see what people do now that it is easier to prototype and build new designs. This will really make it easier for someone with no CAD experience to try out their ideas. I think this will lead to a 'renaissance' of keyboard design now that it is so much easier to try out something radical and new.
Technically it is Canadian based. :P You can use the tool from anywhere and take the plates to any local shop to get the work done. Hopefully the lessons we learn working closely with companies like BigBlueSaw (US based) will help people who are getting work done at their local shops by giving them a head start in knowing what to ask for and what to look out for.
I hope this leads to a 'renaissance' of sorts when it comes to custom builds and unique ideas for new build projects. With the number of Enabler PCBs out there in the wild, I expect to see some very cool builds this year. If my work can help lower the bar for people to get involved and feel comfortable to start prototyping and building their ideas, that is fantastic. :)
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:50:48
It's great to have a 'community service' in bbs. Just a shame that it is US based. Still, I look forward to see what people do now that it is easier to prototype and build new designs. This will really make it easier for someone with no CAD experience to try out their ideas. I think this will lead to a 'renaissance' of keyboard design now that it is so much easier to try out something radical and new.
Technically it is Canadian based. :P You can use the tool from anywhere and take the plates to any local shop to get the work done. Hopefully the lessons we learn working closely with companies like BigBlueSaw (US based) will help people who are getting work done at their local shops by giving them a head start in knowing what to ask for and what to look out for.
I hope this leads to a 'renaissance' of sorts when it comes to custom builds and unique ideas for new build projects. With the number of Enabler PCBs out there in the wild, I expect to see some very cool builds this year. If my work can help lower the bar for people to get involved and feel comfortable to start prototyping and building their ideas, that is fantastic. :)
Sure, any shop will get it cut, but because BBS has the experience in this area surely that will help out their clients greatly.
Also, I was referring to BBS when I said US based. But the US and Canada are basically the same thing anyway, right...
runs and hides :D
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 09:59:46
It's great to have a 'community service' in bbs. Just a shame that it is US based. Still, I look forward to see what people do now that it is easier to prototype and build new designs. This will really make it easier for someone with no CAD experience to try out their ideas. I think this will lead to a 'renaissance' of keyboard design now that it is so much easier to try out something radical and new.
Technically it is Canadian based. :P You can use the tool from anywhere and take the plates to any local shop to get the work done. Hopefully the lessons we learn working closely with companies like BigBlueSaw (US based) will help people who are getting work done at their local shops by giving them a head start in knowing what to ask for and what to look out for.
I hope this leads to a 'renaissance' of sorts when it comes to custom builds and unique ideas for new build projects. With the number of Enabler PCBs out there in the wild, I expect to see some very cool builds this year. If my work can help lower the bar for people to get involved and feel comfortable to start prototyping and building their ideas, that is fantastic. :)
Sure, any shop will get it cut, but because BBS has the experience in this area surely that will help out their clients greatly.
Also, I was referring to BBS when I said US based. But the US and Canada are basically the same thing anyway, right...
runs and hides :D
Sorry I did not make the connection between 'BBS' and 'BigBlueSaw'. I have seen bbs as a shorthand for bulletin boards (aka - forums), so I did not understand your statement as you meant it. :)
I do think that it is helpful for everyone to see the types of problems we are trying to solve with BBS. It will help guide other collaboration (potentially in your country). :)
Post by: possumgumbo on Wed, 11 February 2015, 11:09:16
Just wanted to let everyone know that the CAD files produced from the tool make perfectly viable plates on my friend's Solidoodle V3 3D Printer.
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Ok, thats ****ing awesome. Well done dude. Thanks for sharing back your experience. This is really cool to see. :) Love that people are already trying 3d printing of this stuff. :) Did you use the STP file?
I used the STL file, which my 3D Printing buddy then chopped into pieces on another program. When I asked him what he used, he sent the following reply:
"Spaceclaim for opening and modifying the STEP and converting to STL (this is probably what he wants to know), Repetier Host for running the printer, Slic3r for slicing. If he wants to play with a program similar to Spaceclaim for free he should look into DesignSpark Mechanical - it does not have the full functionality but will import step files and has the basic features and workflow (note that I haven't actually used it myself, I just know it's using the Spaceclaim kernel)."
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 11 February 2015, 11:35:25
It's great to have a 'community service' in bbs. Just a shame that it is US based. Still, I look forward to see what people do now that it is easier to prototype and build new designs. This will really make it easier for someone with no CAD experience to try out their ideas. I think this will lead to a 'renaissance' of keyboard design now that it is so much easier to try out something radical and new.
Technically it is Canadian based. :P You can use the tool from anywhere and take the plates to any local shop to get the work done. Hopefully the lessons we learn working closely with companies like BigBlueSaw (US based) will help people who are getting work done at their local shops by giving them a head start in knowing what to ask for and what to look out for.
I hope this leads to a 'renaissance' of sorts when it comes to custom builds and unique ideas for new build projects. With the number of Enabler PCBs out there in the wild, I expect to see some very cool builds this year. If my work can help lower the bar for people to get involved and feel comfortable to start prototyping and building their ideas, that is fantastic. :)
Sure, any shop will get it cut, but because BBS has the experience in this area surely that will help out their clients greatly.
Also, I was referring to BBS when I said US based. But the US and Canada are basically the same thing anyway, right...
runs and hides :D
Sorry I did not make the connection between 'BBS' and 'BigBlueSaw'. I have seen bbs as a shorthand for bulletin boards (aka - forums), so I did not understand your statement as you meant it. :)
I do think that it is helpful for everyone to see the types of problems we are trying to solve with BBS. It will help guide other collaboration (potentially in your country). :)
Ah right, that clears it up. It will definitely be good to have knowledge on these issues to help people who may face them.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 11:45:47
Just wanted to let everyone know that the CAD files produced from the tool make perfectly viable plates on my friend's Solidoodle V3 3D Printer.
Here are some shots of the prototype:
http://imgur.com/24kdziP (http://imgur.com/24kdziP)
http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe (http://imgur.com/Hw6nAQe)
We added posts for stability on the underside.
Your tool is amazing!
Ok, thats ****ing awesome. Well done dude. Thanks for sharing back your experience. This is really cool to see. :) Love that people are already trying 3d printing of this stuff. :) Did you use the STP file?
I used the STL file, which my 3D Printing buddy then chopped into pieces on another program. When I asked him what he used, he sent the following reply:
"Spaceclaim for opening and modifying the STEP and converting to STL (this is probably what he wants to know), Repetier Host for running the printer, Slic3r for slicing. If he wants to play with a program similar to Spaceclaim for free he should look into DesignSpark Mechanical - it does not have the full functionality but will import step files and has the basic features and workflow (note that I haven't actually used it myself, I just know it's using the Spaceclaim kernel)."
Cool. :)
Post by: sypl on Wed, 11 February 2015, 15:02:36
This case type will actually produce the CAD files for all the layers of the sandwich case. You will be able to choose how many of each layer you want cut and build the case completely from the output of this tool."
This sounds like the tool produces all the layers, but I'm not seeing that. I just get the top plate. Am I doing something wrong, or is this future functionality?
It is an awesome, awesome tool btw.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 16:13:30
"Sandwich - This is a standard layered case. The plate goes on the top and then there are essentially ring layers and then a bottom plate. There are two types of ring layers; 'open' which has a cutout for the USB connector, and 'closed' which has no cutouts. You can choose how many of each layer is suitable for your case.Yes. When I wrote the help section I was expecting to have that functionality developed before I launched the tool. It is on my short list of features roll out, but my time has been limited recently due to RL stuff. I have also prioritized trying to get DXF format support working in order to simplify the collaboration with shops like BigBlueSaw. I have been struggling with this as it is currently broken in the core engine I am using, so I have been trying to troubleshoot and submit patches to the core to get DXF export functionality working for us.
This case type will actually produce the CAD files for all the layers of the sandwich case. You will be able to choose how many of each layer you want cut and build the case completely from the output of this tool."
This sounds like the tool produces all the layers, but I'm not seeing that. I just get the top plate. Am I doing something wrong, or is this future functionality?
It is an awesome, awesome tool btw.
The generation of those additional layers is something I want to get added asap.
Post by: sypl on Wed, 11 February 2015, 21:59:38
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 22:02:50
Is the code on github? I wouldn't mind taking a look.
Not yet. I was going to try to progress it a bit more before I open sourced it. I would like to get most of the core functionality in place before I open source it. Right now I don't really have the cycles to deal with pull requests because I am really trying to focus on getting through some of my backlog. It will be available in the near future, but probably not for another month or so.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 February 2015, 22:28:10
I have spent entirely too much time trying to get DXF support working. I had previously spent about a week or two on the problem and then gave up. This time I am working off the nightly builds of FreeCAD and I went into it knowing I was going to have to get my hands dirty. I have spent most of my free time this past week finding and fixing bugs and submitting patches upstream. Tonight I think I have finally cracked this nut and I have successfully exported a DXF file. W00t!!! Rounded corners are even working. Booya...
I am going to see if I can get SVG export working as well. I was not able to get it working in the past, but I have a better idea of how this stuff works now and I am pretty confident I should be able to get that working as well. I think I have already isolated the main issue, so hopefully it will be a quick fix.
Anyway, all good news. If I can finally get these exports working I will be able to rest easy and move on to the fun features. :)
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 12 February 2015, 02:03:26
A small update tonight...
I have spent entirely too much time trying to get DXF support working. I had previously spent about a week or two on the problem and then gave up. This time I am working off the nightly builds of FreeCAD and I went into it knowing I was going to have to get my hands dirty. I have spent most of my free time this past week finding and fixing bugs and submitting patches upstream. Tonight I think I have finally cracked this nut and I have successfully exported a DXF file. W00t!!! Rounded corners are even working. Booya...
I am going to see if I can get SVG export working as well. I was not able to get it working in the past, but I have a better idea of how this stuff works now and I am pretty confident I should be able to get that working as well. I think I have already isolated the main issue, so hopefully it will be a quick fix.
Anyway, all good news. If I can finally get these exports working I will be able to rest easy and move on to the fun features. :)
This is amazing news! Now for dwg, unless you never want to look at file export code again in your life :)
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 12 February 2015, 06:38:16
Post by: bueller on Thu, 12 February 2015, 06:41:27
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 13 February 2015, 08:15:15
This is amazing news! Now for dwg, unless you never want to look at file export code again in your life :)
Once you've got one vector format working, the rest are pretty easy. The lazy way to do it is to just find a command line tool that does the conversion for you.
Post by: cmadrid on Fri, 13 February 2015, 11:11:21
Post by: phishy on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:54:36
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 00:14:30
So I'm torn between the top and bottom plate being all aluminum, all polycarbonate or PC for bottom plate and aluminum for the top. The switches I sent were delivered today, going to place my order monday or tuesday.
I sent BigBlueSaw a bunch of stabilizers a couple days ago, so hopefully he will get them soon.
As for what you build your plate out of. Thats up to you. Do you have a PCB or are you hand wiring or using the Enabler PCBs for the matrix? If you don't have a PCB, then I would not recommend polycarb as I don't think 1.5mm polycarb would hold up. If you don't have a PCB, you MUST use a 1.5mm plate because the switches MUST clip into the plate to stay secure. If anything I just said doesn't make sense just ask for clarification. :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 00:19:17
Tomorrow night I will be taking the tool down for an hour or so and I will be doing a pretty major update. I wanted to do it tonight, but I JUST got everything working and it is after 1am and I have to be up early tomorrow morning.
I will do a more extensive overview of the changes tomorrow when I do the update, but here are the highlights:
- DXF export support (HOLY ****ING FINALLY)
- SVG export support (W00t)
- Costar only stabilizer cutouts
- Fixed 'background' bug
- More bug fixes...
I will review the thread tomorrow to see if I missed any bugs. If you remember any that I have not mentioned here, let me know so it jogs my memory.
Cheers... :)
Post by: Dihedral on Sun, 15 February 2015, 02:08:54
Post by: phishy on Sun, 15 February 2015, 05:49:38
So I'm torn between the top and bottom plate being all aluminum, all polycarbonate or PC for bottom plate and aluminum for the top. The switches I sent were delivered today, going to place my order monday or tuesday.
I sent BigBlueSaw a bunch of stabilizers a couple days ago, so hopefully he will get them soon.
As for what you build your plate out of. Thats up to you. Do you have a PCB or are you hand wiring or using the Enabler PCBs for the matrix? If you don't have a PCB, then I would not recommend polycarb as I don't think 1.5mm polycarb would hold up. If you don't have a PCB, you MUST use a 1.5mm plate because the switches MUST clip into the plate to stay secure. If anything I just said doesn't make sense just ask for clarification. :)
It makes sense for sure (have read alot lately haha) I'm definitely hand wiring the matrix. The only reason I was considering polycarb is because it's rigid as hell and I had assumed because gon used it to build an entire case out of it that it must work well for this application. I think I'll stick to aluminum for 2 reasons. a)hopefully to help BBS dial all of this in and b)I want this as rigid as possible for max finger orgasm.
Post by: p3lim on Sun, 15 February 2015, 08:40:05
Even if it wouldn't, depending on your preference, I'd suggest using some kind of bugtracker (GitHub issues for example), not just for us, but it's a tremendous tool for yourself.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 09:40:17
Is this tool (or will it be) open source?Soon™. I am currently using a private bitbucket repo for development. I will be open sourcing it once I get a few more of the features in place. I will be putting it on GitHub when I do that. Right now I am just trying to advance things as quickly as I can before I open things up. Also, I want to clean up the way I did some things so they are more obvious to the masses.
Even if it wouldn't, depending on your preference, I'd suggest using some kind of bugtracker (GitHub issues for example), not just for us, but it's a tremendous tool for yourself.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 13:58:42
[attachimg=1]
This update has been a LONG time in coming. This update may not seem like much to some of you, but others will recognize the milestone of this update.
Details of this update:
- DXF Export Support - This is a big deal. Pretty much every shop works with DXF files and the tools lack of support for this format was a pretty big sticking point. All told I probably spent about 3 weeks JUST on this feature. There were problems in the underlying CAD engine (FreeCAD) which I use which to render my drawings. I actually had to troubleshoot those issues in FreeCAD and develop and submit multiple patches to its core to resolve the issues I was running into. This support is awesome for us. :)
- SVG Export Support - Not as popular as DXF, but this was another desired format. I also had to troubleshoot and patch FreeCAD to get this support working. Its great to have this feature as well now.
- Costar Only Stabilizer Support - This has been requested a few times. This option will help reduce machining costs for people who really only care about Costar stabilizers.
- Selective Costar Support - Like many of my other configuration options, you can selectively choose which keys you want which stabilizer cutouts on. So if you want to have only a Costar spacebar stabilizer but Cherry and Costar support for the other 2u stabilizers, that is possible by using the {_s:1} option in the raw data. Check the 'Plate Layout Help' for more details.
- Fixed Background Bug - There was a bug that would cause an extra row to be rendered if you specified a background color in the keyboard-layout-editor.
- Fixed Mount Hole Bug - Fixed a bug that would allow you to specify an odd number of mount holes which would cause things to break when drawing the plate. I am correctly verifying that you specified an even number of mount holes >= 4.
I think thats it. This is going to make things much easier for BigBlueSaw to work with the output from this tool as well as other shops you may want to work with.
Thanks for all the support everyone...
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 15 February 2015, 14:38:06
Post by: p3lim on Sun, 15 February 2015, 15:40:16
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 16:18:29
Amazing work yet once again swill. Any idea when support for rotated keys will be coming? Not that I am worried about it, just curious.By rotation, you mean rotated groups like the ergodox thumb sections? I already support rotating switches and stabilizers around their center. Check the help in the plate layout section for details.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 16:23:02
The svg one will probably be helpful with troubleshooting, so thumbs up for that feature!Is the live preview not good enough for you? What's the advantage of svg for troubleshooting?
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 15 February 2015, 16:30:44
I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, huh? The main reason for eliminating the costar cutout on the top is for when you want to use Cherry plate mount stabs. They don't clip into the plate as well if they have those cutouts. Most people want both combined, so they can choose what type of stabilizers to use after the fact.
Post by: p3lim on Sun, 15 February 2015, 17:28:18
The svg one will probably be helpful with troubleshooting, so thumbs up for that feature!Is the live preview not good enough for you? What's the advantage of svg for troubleshooting?
Lets say a person has a question about his rendered plate, he/she could then just supply the link to the svg, which in most (if not all) modern browsers are rendered, without the need to share a picture or actual cad files.
Like so: http://swillkb.s3.amazonaws.com/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36.svg
Come to think of it, I have a feature suggestion, although it's probably not necessary at all;
When the server is done rendering and the client receives the data, what about changing the path to the actual finished page and linking back to it would display the finished page?
This would allow for sharing a link to a finished plate in the format "builder.swillkb.com/<sha>", and possibly allowing for small modifications for re-rendering, even by other people.
So the link to the plate that I linked the svg for above would look like this: http://builder.swillkb.com/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36.
And it would link to this page: http://i.imgur.com/T0c9Pjp.png, with all the parameters in the configure section there as well.
This depends however on how you cache and what data you actually keep on your end, like the parameters.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 18:17:31
Now you just need to add Cherry-only stabilizer support. :DYa. I can do that if people want. Its not a big change.
I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, huh? The main reason for eliminating the costar cutout on the top is for when you want to use Cherry plate mount stabs. They don't clip into the plate as well if they have those cutouts. Most people want both combined, so they can choose what type of stabilizers to use after the fact.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 18:28:02
Ahh. Ya I understand what you meant now.The svg one will probably be helpful with troubleshooting, so thumbs up for that feature!Is the live preview not good enough for you? What's the advantage of svg for troubleshooting?
Lets say a person has a question about his rendered plate, he/she could then just supply the link to the svg, which in most (if not all) modern browsers are rendered, without the need to share a picture or actual cad files.
Like so: http://swillkb.s3.amazonaws.com/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36.svg
Come to think of it, I have a feature suggestion, although it's probably not necessary at all;
When the server is done rendering and the client receives the data, what about changing the path to the actual finished page and linking back to it would display the finished page?
This would allow for sharing a link to a finished plate in the format "builder.swillkb.com/<sha>", and possibly allowing for small modifications for re-rendering, even by other people.
So the link to the plate that I linked the svg for above would look like this: http://builder.swillkb.com/ad6b6ad9c9fd4f92af48ce29fb72b72b177b7d36.
And it would link to this page: http://i.imgur.com/T0c9Pjp.png, with all the parameters in the configure section there as well.
This depends however on how you cache and what data you actually keep on your end, like the parameters.
As for the builder link. Yes, I am planning to do this (maybe even in the next set of changes). It is a little trucker than expected because I want the edit section to be populated as well so someone can look at a linked layout and then do some minor tweaks and re-render.
To do this I have to save all of the source data that built the layout as well as the resulting data. On page load I have to populate all of the edit details with the source data as well as the rendered display.
It is not super hard, but it does take some time and I have not taken the time to implement it yet.
This and adding support for the other layers in the sandwich case are probably going to be the main features of the next release. I think being able to link to your builder layout in the forum is really important for community feedback and development of ideas. :)
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sun, 15 February 2015, 22:56:35
Major Update Released!!!This is great. I was asking around for measurements and planning to take a stab at it myself.
- Costar Only Stabilizer Support - This has been requested a few times. This option will help reduce machining costs for people who really only care about Costar stabilizers.
You just saved me from having any amount of brain pain and hair pulling. ;D
Time to play around with it on your site. Teeheehee :p
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 February 2015, 23:20:42
Now you just need to add Cherry-only stabilizer support. :D
I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, huh? The main reason for eliminating the costar cutout on the top is for when you want to use Cherry plate mount stabs. They don't clip into the plate as well if they have those cutouts. Most people want both combined, so they can choose what type of stabilizers to use after the fact.
Done! Now you have the following stabilizer options (Note: you can mix and match by changing the '_s' param in the raw data, check layout help for details)
- Cherry + Costar
- Cherry Only
- Costar Only
Also, I fixed a bug where values of items that are turned off were still being used. Thinks like padding, kerf, rounded corners, etc...
Post by: ManOnTheMetalIsland on Mon, 16 February 2015, 03:51:58
When I input this data:
[attach=1]
It spits out this:
[attach=2]
It acts right if I put the top left key back in line with the middle two top keys.
Thanks,
Will
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 16 February 2015, 03:57:25
Swill, amazing tool, and even greater with the .dxf support. I just want to let you know one little problem I run into.
When I input this data:
(Attachment Link)
It spits out this:
(Attachment Link)
It acts right if I put the top left key back in line with the middle two top keys.
Thanks,
Will
I don't think its programmed for non-standard layouts. Talk nicely to jdcarpe and he might do it for you though.
Post by: ManOnTheMetalIsland on Mon, 16 February 2015, 04:05:11
I don't think its programmed for non-standard layouts. Talk nicely to jdcarpe and he might do it for you though.
I'm sure I could easily put it together in draftsight, I'm just bored at work killing time making different layouts and putting through swill's tool.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 06:27:43
Swill, amazing tool, and even greater with the .dxf support. I just want to let you know one little problem I run into.I know about this one. I am working on it. Technically I don't yet support non standard layouts, but I am working on adding this support since other people have brought this up too.
When I input this data:
(Attachment Link)
It spits out this:
(Attachment Link)
It acts right if I put the top left key back in line with the middle two top keys.
Thanks,
Will
Post by: phishy on Mon, 16 February 2015, 06:38:36
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 06:52:03
When downloading DFX from the tool, and then directly importing it into BBS to get a quote, it's picking up the plate size in inches instead of MM. So BBS's site thinks the plate is 326 inches by 107 inches.I guess BBS defaults to inches as their UOM. I don't think I can do anything about that from my size.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 February 2015, 06:57:21
When downloading DFX from the tool, and then directly importing it into BBS to get a quote, it's picking up the plate size in inches instead of MM. So BBS's site thinks the plate is 326 inches by 107 inches.I guess BBS defaults to inches as their UOM. I don't think I can do anything about that from my size.
You could have an option for making the drawing in inches or mm? Still have the software run all the calculations in metric, but at the end scale everything if inch is selected?
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 07:00:03
Ya. That is something melvang asked for as well. I would have to change the ui and how the data is collected as well. I am considering it, just have not gotten my head around it just yet. I will look into it.When downloading DFX from the tool, and then directly importing it into BBS to get a quote, it's picking up the plate size in inches instead of MM. So BBS's site thinks the plate is 326 inches by 107 inches.I guess BBS defaults to inches as their UOM. I don't think I can do anything about that from my size.
You could have an option for making the drawing in inches or mm? Still have the software run all the calculations in metric, but at the end scale everything if inch is selected?
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 08:14:28
Swill, amazing tool, and even greater with the .dxf support. I just want to let you know one little problem I run into.
When I input this data:
(Attachment Link)
It spits out this:
(Attachment Link)
It acts right if I put the top left key back in line with the middle two top keys.
Thanks,
Will
I fixed this before work today. I now fully support ergodox style alpha keys (with staggered rows). I still do not support the ergodox thumb section, but I will slowly get there...
[attachimg=1]
Cheers...
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 16 February 2015, 08:55:30
When downloading DFX from the tool, and then directly importing it into BBS to get a quote, it's picking up the plate size in inches instead of MM. So BBS's site thinks the plate is 326 inches by 107 inches.I guess BBS defaults to inches as their UOM. I don't think I can do anything about that from my size.
R12 DXF files have no units associated with them, so the online quoting system just assumes that they're inches.
Later DXF versions (R2000 and above I think) have a way to set a default unit for the file, so these will come out correctly.
A workaround is to open the file in Librecad and scale everything by a factor of 0.03937, then save the file. Or save as a R2000 DXF with mm units.
Post by: joey on Mon, 16 February 2015, 08:58:29
I think that's cheaper (I may be wrong) to prototype with. So would be a nice option if you want to try layouts without breaking the bank.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:05:46
Have you thought about kerf for wood/MDF?
I think that's cheaper (I may be wrong) to prototype with. So would be a nice option if you want to try layouts without breaking the bank.
Get the kerf value from the shop you plan to get the plate cut with and enter the kerf value in the tool. By entering a kerf value in the tool it will automatically adjust the cad to account for the kerf.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:08:36
When downloading DFX from the tool, and then directly importing it into BBS to get a quote, it's picking up the plate size in inches instead of MM. So BBS's site thinks the plate is 326 inches by 107 inches.I guess BBS defaults to inches as their UOM. I don't think I can do anything about that from my size.
R12 DXF files have no units associated with them, so the online quoting system just assumes that they're inches.
Later DXF versions (R2000 and above I think) have a way to set a default unit for the file, so these will come out correctly.
A workaround is to open the file in Librecad and scale everything by a factor of 0.03937, then save the file. Or save as a R2000 DXF with mm units.
Ya, I think it defaults to R12...
Do any of these formats support exporting with dimensions? Do you know? I will need to figure out how to export in a specific format.
Code: [Select]
DXF AutoCAD-Release format codes:
AC1021 2008, 2007
AC1018 2006, 2005, 2004
AC1015 2002, 2000i, 2000
AC1014 R14, 14.01
AC1012 R13
AC1009 R12, 11
AC1006 R10
AC1004 R9
AC1002 R2.6
AC1.50 R2.05
The code defaults to this:
Code: [Select]
self.acadver=' 9\n$ACADVER\n 1\nAC1009\n'
Post by: phishy on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:30:40
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:32:11
The file needs to have the header variable $INSUNITS. The group code should be "70" and value should be "4" for mm.
See this page:
http://www.autodesk.com/techpubs/autocad/acad2000/dxf/header_section_group_codes_dxf_02.htm
Post by: abjr on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:42:00
Code: [Select]
$ACADVER
1
AC1027
9
Code: [Select]
$INSUNITS
70
4
9
Great work on this, swill!
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 10:09:29
I took the DXF from the plate builder and opened it in DraftSight and it was listed as Unitless. I saved it in mm as "R2013 ASCII Drawing (*.dxf)" and it opened fine in BBS.Code: [Select]$ACADVER
1
AC1027
9Code: [Select]$INSUNITS
70
4
9
Great work on this, swill!
Thanks for testing that for us. :)
Post by: possumgumbo on Mon, 16 February 2015, 10:49:16
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 16 February 2015, 10:50:12
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
That's strange. I doubt it's related to the actual switch colours, just the different batches of switch housings.
Post by: possumgumbo on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:33:21
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
That's strange. I doubt it's related to the actual switch colours, just the different batches of switch housings.
Grab a blue and squeeze the sides HARD. The post will be reluctant to pop back up. We tried this with some pliers, and realized that the extra hardware around the post of the blue makes them sensitive to sharp side pressure.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:43:57
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
So this is for the sides of the switch opening right? Do you have a caliper? Is the resulting opening exactly 14mm as described in the cad? Maybe when it is 3d printed the tolerances are not perfect?
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:45:34
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
Do the switches open correctly while clipped into the plate with that cutout? Any problems there? Curious because if the switch clipping into the plate is really tight, it may also be a problem for the side wings.
Post by: possumgumbo on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:49:26
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
Do the switches open correctly while clipped into the plate with that cutout? Any problems there? Curious because if the switch clipping into the plate is really tight, it may also be a problem for the side wings.
Once I de-burred the edges of the areas that press on the center of the clips, the blues opened fine. This is really an issue with some 3D printers, as they often deposit just a LITTLE too much material as they make a tight corner.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:01:02
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
Do the switches open correctly while clipped into the plate with that cutout? Any problems there? Curious because if the switch clipping into the plate is really tight, it may also be a problem for the side wings.
Once I de-burred the edges of the areas that press on the center of the clips, the blues opened fine. This is really an issue with some 3D printers, as they often deposit just a LITTLE too much material as they make a tight corner.
Fair enough. You could potentially specify a negative kerf value and you may be able to counteract that. Maybe something to try. I "think" that should work, but I have not tested that concept at all.
Post by: possumgumbo on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:10:41
Just letting you know that the type 2 cutouts worked perfectly on my 3D printer for MX browns, but they pressed a little too hard on the sides for blues. I had to shave down the little protrusions, as blues are more sensitive to side pressure. Everything turned out beautiful. I'll post a pic when I have access to Imgur.
Do the switches open correctly while clipped into the plate with that cutout? Any problems there? Curious because if the switch clipping into the plate is really tight, it may also be a problem for the side wings.
Once I de-burred the edges of the areas that press on the center of the clips, the blues opened fine. This is really an issue with some 3D printers, as they often deposit just a LITTLE too much material as they make a tight corner.
Fair enough. You could potentially specify a negative kerf value and you may be able to counteract that. Maybe something to try. I "think" that should work, but I have not tested that concept at all.
It really wasn't a problem. Just wanted printers to know that you may need to slice the edges of the insets a bit with a pocketknife, or grind them with a small rotary tool to get blues to work optimally. The fit is excellently snug, and with the right supports, you definitely don't need a steel plate.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 16 February 2015, 22:14:01
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:22:48
Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:24:46
Ok, thanks! And yeah, that's what I mean. Should I just open it up on autocad or something and re-export it like you said?Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:27:32
Ok, thanks! And yeah, that's what I mean. Should I just open it up on autocad or something and re-export it like you said?Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
abjr did it with draftsite. BBS suggested Librecad. AutoCAD should work fine if you have it.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:28:16
I have the student edition, so it should work. Thanks!Ok, thanks! And yeah, that's what I mean. Should I just open it up on autocad or something and re-export it like you said?Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
abjr did it with draftsite. BBS suggested Librecad. AutoCAD should work fine if you have it.
Post by: swill on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:29:18
Let us know how it goes. :)I have the student edition, so it should work. Thanks!Ok, thanks! And yeah, that's what I mean. Should I just open it up on autocad or something and re-export it like you said?Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
abjr did it with draftsite. BBS suggested Librecad. AutoCAD should work fine if you have it.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:36:46
It did not fix it, still says length is 107.950 inches.Let us know how it goes. :)I have the student edition, so it should work. Thanks!Ok, thanks! And yeah, that's what I mean. Should I just open it up on autocad or something and re-export it like you said?Does anyone know where I can get quotes for something in MM? bbs doesn't support MM
By MM, you mean millimeters? BBS does support mm, but you have to re-export the dxf file with a R2000 or later version of the DXF format in order to include units of measure. There have been some posts recently about this.
abjr did it with draftsite. BBS suggested Librecad. AutoCAD should work fine if you have it.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:45:14
Post by: p3lim on Tue, 17 February 2015, 04:33:51
Center-to-center is 98mm with the switch mount perfectly in the middle (~43.5mm between the stab mounts and the switch mount, http://i.imgur.com/McryYdA.jpg).
The "normal" (Cherry G80-1800) is either 95.25mm or 96.5mm (I don't know that for sure yet, got conflicting sources), while Signature Plastics might have different mounts.
Anyways, thought this would come in handy.
Edit: Wikified http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_43.5mm_apart.29
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 February 2015, 06:27:33
Received a 6u spacebar from a CMStorm QuickFire Ultimate today, they are using completely different stabilizer mounts on it.Looking at the image, your measurement is incorrect. What you should document is the center to center distance between the center outside stabilizer. You documented the distance from edge to edge of the posts. It should be from center of MX cutout to center of MX cutout. Make sense?
Center-to-center is 98mm with the switch mount perfectly in the middle (~43.5mm between the stab mounts and the switch mount, http://i.imgur.com/McryYdA.jpg).
The "normal" (Cherry G80-1800) is either 95.25mm or 96.5mm (I don't know that for sure yet, got conflicting sources), while Signature Plastics might have different mounts.
Anyways, thought this would come in handy.
Edit: Wikified http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_43.5mm_apart.29
I hope more of those on the wiki are not wrong because that is the source I used for my stabilizer sizing. :\
Post by: p3lim on Tue, 17 February 2015, 06:59:51
Received a 6u spacebar from a CMStorm QuickFire Ultimate today, they are using completely different stabilizer mounts on it.Looking at the image, your measurement is incorrect. What you should document is the center to center distance between the center outside stabilizer. You documented the distance from edge to edge of the posts. It should be from center of MX cutout to center of MX cutout. Make sense?
Center-to-center is 98mm with the switch mount perfectly in the middle (~43.5mm between the stab mounts and the switch mount, http://i.imgur.com/McryYdA.jpg).
The "normal" (Cherry G80-1800) is either 95.25mm or 96.5mm (I don't know that for sure yet, got conflicting sources), while Signature Plastics might have different mounts.
Anyways, thought this would come in handy.
Edit: Wikified http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_43.5mm_apart.29
I hope more of those on the wiki are not wrong because that is the source I used for my stabilizer sizing. :\
Updated the wiki to include that too, as well as the total center-to-center between the stabilizer mounts (98mm).
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:03:25
Cool. :). Thx.Received a 6u spacebar from a CMStorm QuickFire Ultimate today, they are using completely different stabilizer mounts on it.Looking at the image, your measurement is incorrect. What you should document is the center to center distance between the center outside stabilizer. You documented the distance from edge to edge of the posts. It should be from center of MX cutout to center of MX cutout. Make sense?
Center-to-center is 98mm with the switch mount perfectly in the middle (~43.5mm between the stab mounts and the switch mount, http://i.imgur.com/McryYdA.jpg).
The "normal" (Cherry G80-1800) is either 95.25mm or 96.5mm (I don't know that for sure yet, got conflicting sources), while Signature Plastics might have different mounts.
Anyways, thought this would come in handy.
Edit: Wikified http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_43.5mm_apart.29
I hope more of those on the wiki are not wrong because that is the source I used for my stabilizer sizing. :\
Updated the wiki to include that too, as well as the total center-to-center between the stabilizer mounts (98mm).
Post by: p3lim on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:18:13
The keycap came with Costar-like mounts on it, and the reason I say Costar-like is because they are not cross (+) shaped, rather a straight bar (|).
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 February 2015, 09:06:01
Also a thing to note, Cherry stabilizers don't work work at all with the keycap I got, the stems are smaller (0.1-0.2mm) than the spec, they fit fine in the center mount tho (the switch).
The keycap came with Costar-like mounts on it, and the reason I say Costar-like is because they are not cross (+) shaped, rather a straight bar (|).
Can you give me a little more detail on what is going on here? Are you saying that the stabilizer cutouts are wrong for regular keycaps or just a specific set of caps you have? Do you have pictures maybe? It is really important that I know about any issues so I can fix them going forward. I need this to work for the majority of people without them having to think. :)
Post by: p3lim on Tue, 17 February 2015, 09:31:26
Also a thing to note, Cherry stabilizers don't work work at all with the keycap I got, the stems are smaller (0.1-0.2mm) than the spec, they fit fine in the center mount tho (the switch).
The keycap came with Costar-like mounts on it, and the reason I say Costar-like is because they are not cross (+) shaped, rather a straight bar (|).
Can you give me a little more detail on what is going on here? Are you saying that the stabilizer cutouts are wrong for regular keycaps or just a specific set of caps you have? Do you have pictures maybe? It is really important that I know about any issues so I can fix them going forward. I need this to work for the majority of people without them having to think. :)
It's nothing for you to worry about, has nothing to do with the plate anyways, it's the stabilizer holes on the keycap, they're too small to fit Cherry stabs.
Just me ranting :p
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 17 February 2015, 09:32:57
Also a thing to note, Cherry stabilizers don't work work at all with the keycap I got, the stems are smaller (0.1-0.2mm) than the spec, they fit fine in the center mount tho (the switch).
The keycap came with Costar-like mounts on it, and the reason I say Costar-like is because they are not cross (+) shaped, rather a straight bar (|).
Can you give me a little more detail on what is going on here? Are you saying that the stabilizer cutouts are wrong for regular keycaps or just a specific set of caps you have? Do you have pictures maybe? It is really important that I know about any issues so I can fix them going forward. I need this to work for the majority of people without them having to think. :)
It's nothing for you to worry about, has nothing to do with the plate anyways, it's the stabilizer holes on the keycap, they're too small to fit Cherry stabs.
Just me ranting :p
This is why we don't design keyboards with 6u spacebars. Now you know. For future reference. :D
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:00:08
Post by: p3lim on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:39:27
Alright so the plate is cut and he sent me a video earlier. The cutouts fit perfect top and bottom, but are loose side to side. I dont think this could be a kerf issue due to the fact that it's a pretty large gap so I'm curious if it has to do with the actual size of the cutout just being off? Aside from that the plate looks good, he shipped it out to me today. Even though there is room on either side of the switch, it fits snug and it takes quite a but of force for him to push it from side to side. Ignore the fact that the stab bar is upside down, I doubt he's had a mech spacebar off before so A+ for effort.
The long part of the stabilizer wire goes in the nooks, the small parts is for the keycap. Thanks for the laugh tho ;D
http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Filco_Majestouch_1_--_Costar_stabiliser.jpg
As for the wiggle room, is it the same on all the other holes too?
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:46:55
Alright so the plate is cut and he sent me a video earlier. The cutouts fit perfect top and bottom, but are loose side to side. I dont think this could be a kerf issue due to the fact that it's a pretty large gap so I'm curious if it has to do with the actual size of the cutout just being off? Aside from that the plate looks good, he shipped it out to me today. Even though there is room on either side of the switch, it fits snug and it takes quite a but of force for him to push it from side to side. Ignore the fact that the stab bar is upside down, I doubt he's had a mech spacebar off before so A+ for effort.
The long part of the stabilizer wire goes in the nooks, the small parts is for the keycap. Thanks for the laugh tho ;D
http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Filco_Majestouch_1_--_Costar_stabiliser.jpg
As for the wiggle room, is it the same on all the other holes too?
Haha I know about the stab wire that video was from BBS. The plate wont be here til Monday they shipped it out today. I believe all of the holes have this wiggle room. And judging by the amount of wiggle room and the fact that the top is tight, I dont think kerf can be to blame here.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:53:49
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:55:25
Looks like you used the default holes when you created your plate? If so, those gaps on the sides are for switch opening. :)
Yeah I used the default cutout (second from the left on the tool), so the wiggle room on each side is normal? If so then it looks like the plate came out perfect.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:56:14
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 February 2015, 19:57:23
Looks like you used the default holes when you created your plate? If so, those gaps on the sides are for switch opening. :)
And alps compatible iirc.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 20:00:25
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 February 2015, 20:03:50
Yes, exactly.Looks like you used the default holes when you created your plate? If so, those gaps on the sides are for switch opening. :)
And alps compatible iirc.
Post by: p3lim on Thu, 19 February 2015, 20:09:30
Unless of course you've got a PCB, then it's irrelevant.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 20:12:36
If you want to secure them better, use hot glue on the corners from the back side. I will be doing the same to my plate's spacebar (because the cutout is much larger to fit any kind of keycap, http://i.imgur.com/MEGGLNs.png).
Unless of course you've got a PCB, then it's irrelevant.
Alright noted thanks for the heads up. I'm hand wiring this one, as tackling this much is already quite overwhelming I don't think I'm ready for designing PCBs yet haha.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 19 February 2015, 20:35:41
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 19 February 2015, 21:09:53
The corner nubs are a little off due to the waterjet cutting program. Thus, the horizontal play in the switches.
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Thanks again for putting so much time into this for us man. Once I get this one build I'm going to do a run of a different style plate.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 February 2015, 21:13:24
Alright so the plate is cut and he sent me a video earlier. The cutouts fit perfect top and bottom, but are loose side to side. I dont think this could be a kerf issue due to the fact that it's a pretty large gap so I'm curious if it has to do with the actual size of the cutout just being off? Aside from that the plate looks good, he shipped it out to me today. Even though there is room on either side of the switch, it fits snug and it takes quite a but of force for him to push it from side to side. Ignore the fact that the stab bar is upside down, I doubt he's had a mech spacebar off before so A+ for effort.I spent an hour or so on the phone with BBS today discussing and measuring this. The dimensions of the cutout is correct. The actual cutout is slightly smaller than the drawing. I think it is 13.88mm instead of 14mm and the width of the alps cutout sides was slightly smaller as well. I think the main reason for the movement is the nubs in the corners are not quite as square as we are shooting for and the MX switches are also not square (there is less material in those corners of the switch). BBS is going to work on getting those corners more square in the water jet processing.
As for alps support, we are not quite there. The switches clip in, but I think they are too tight because the switch will depress, but it does not rebound correctly. It may be because the cutout ended up being a touch smaller than drawn, but if others know why this can happen it would be helpful for us to understand.
Let us know if you have questions or suggestions.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 February 2015, 22:16:04
I HIGHLY suggest that if you plan on hand wiring the switches in your plate, that you use the first, simple square hole design. And decide which stabilizers you will use, Costar or Cherry, and pick one or the other for your drawing. Trying to combine things like MX and Alps holes on a plate with a PCB is no big deal, but for hand wiring you want the MOST stability possible. And that is done with my suggestions above. :)
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 February 2015, 22:37:46
So this may not seem like a huge update because it is only one feature, but I had to refactor a lot of code to add this functionality, so it feels like a big feature to me. :)
I have added support for drawing all of the different layers of the sandwich case. The top layer did not change. I have added two middle layers, one is just a spacer and does not have any cutouts and the other has a 1cm cutout in the center for the USB connection. I have also added the bottom layer.
Right now I only support the cutout in the center top of the case. I also am setting it statically to 1cm for now. I will probably make both of those features configurable, but I wanted to just launch the functionality as is first. I am not sure how I am going to allow people to specify where they want the USB opening. I could do it as a percentage across the top, but if you know exactly where you want it (say for a specific PCB), that will be hard to use. If I specify it as an actual distance, than where are we measuring from?
That brings up another point. Right now my middle layers are making the cut 19.05mm from the center of the switch center. Well assuming the switch is at the edge of the plate. Basically, it is cutting out everything but the padding you set, so if you draw something without padding, that is what would be cutout of the middle layer for the sandwich case. Not sure if that is clear. I am going to have to do something to make this more configurable though because it is possible that a PCB may require a bigger opening than that. I am looking at one of my Sprit PCBs right now and I think I would need more space than what I am currently cutting out. The way I am currently doing it is perfect for hand wired keyboards, but I will need to make some adjustments to make it easier to work with PCBs.
I hope this is a useful feature for you all. :)
Here is a screenshot of what it looks like when you draw a sandwich case now.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: neverused on Fri, 20 February 2015, 00:01:54
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 20 February 2015, 02:31:40
The corner nubs are a little off due to the waterjet cutting program. Thus, the horizontal play in the switches.
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Can you make a video.showing how the alps don't work.
Post by: p3lim on Fri, 20 February 2015, 06:24:56
And decide which stabilizers you will use, Costar or Cherry, and pick one or the other for your drawing.
Not really necessary, I have the combined one (as you know), and both the stabilizers fit really snug.
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 08:02:39
The switch depresses but does not rebound. I think it is because it is too tight. We need to do some testing.The corner nubs are a little off due to the waterjet cutting program. Thus, the horizontal play in the switches.
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Can you make a video.showing how the alps don't work.
Post by: neverused on Fri, 20 February 2015, 08:22:56
Would it be possible to adjust for this by manually adding a small factor to the kerf to "loosen" things up?The switch depresses but does not rebound. I think it is because it is too tight. We need to do some testing.The corner nubs are a little off due to the waterjet cutting program. Thus, the horizontal play in the switches.
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Can you make a video.showing how the alps don't work.
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 08:27:41
Well the cutout ended up being about .15mm smaller than my drawing. I am not sure what the alps tolerances are, but cherry spec lists .05mm as the tolerance (but they still work). If we get the cutout a little closer to the drawing we will know more.Would it be possible to adjust for this by manually adding a small factor to the kerf to "loosen" things up?The switch depresses but does not rebound. I think it is because it is too tight. We need to do some testing.The corner nubs are a little off due to the waterjet cutting program. Thus, the horizontal play in the switches.
We'll work on getting that perfect, but after discussing with swill and phishy on the phone today, it's good enough for regular use. You have to use a bit of force to get them to slide horizontally, so I don' t think this is a big problem.
Alps switches don't work right yet, though, for some reason. That's something else we'll have to work on.
Can you make a video.showing how the alps don't work.
Water jet is a little harder to get the tolerances we are aiming for because of a few factors. Working on it though.
Post by: phishy on Fri, 20 February 2015, 09:17:36
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 09:28:20
On the bright side of things, you can always take a little material away, can't put it back though. If I have any problems with my cutouts i'll take a file or something to them. In the future I'll probably just be using the regular cutout. I don't really have a reason to open switches once I get them mounted anyways, and that will avoid the corners being too small and the switch moving.
If you are hand wiring you can unclip the switch without unsoldering anyway. I will probably just use the normal cutout for my hand wired projects because of this...
Post by: sethk_ on Fri, 20 February 2015, 19:28:35
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 20:31:34
I am getting an Internal Server Error whenever I try to generate a 15x15 platePost the layout you are using and a screenshot of your settings and I will get it sorted. Thanks for the heads up.
Post by: sethk_ on Fri, 20 February 2015, 20:34:03
Ok, and 12x12 with .5 spacing between each key seems to give me the same error as well.I am getting an Internal Server Error whenever I try to generate a 15x15 platePost the layout you are using and a screenshot of your settings and I will get it sorted. Thanks for the heads up.
15 x 15
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fb056a32269ea05755bda1eeaef97d94
(http://i.gyazo.com/cf19f54b9e721dec7c096e90657f67c2.png)
12 x 12 w/ .5 spacing
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d4ec6bbf397bcf0923d35f00541b657b
(http://i.gyazo.com/5db050f85286e36cedf779ede77b7e89.png)
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 20:36:37
I will check once I finish getting the baby settled in for the night.Ok, and 12x12 with .5 spacing between each key seems to give me the same error as well.I am getting an Internal Server Error whenever I try to generate a 15x15 platePost the layout you are using and a screenshot of your settings and I will get it sorted. Thanks for the heads up.
15 x 15
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fb056a32269ea05755bda1eeaef97d94Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/cf19f54b9e721dec7c096e90657f67c2.png)
12 x 12 w/ .5 spacing
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d4ec6bbf397bcf0923d35f00541b657bShow Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5db050f85286e36cedf779ede77b7e89.png)
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 23:50:56
Ok, and 12x12 with .5 spacing between each key seems to give me the same error as well.I am getting an Internal Server Error whenever I try to generate a 15x15 platePost the layout you are using and a screenshot of your settings and I will get it sorted. Thanks for the heads up.
15 x 15
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fb056a32269ea05755bda1eeaef97d94Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/cf19f54b9e721dec7c096e90657f67c2.png)
12 x 12 w/ .5 spacing
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d4ec6bbf397bcf0923d35f00541b657bShow Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5db050f85286e36cedf779ede77b7e89.png)
Alright, sorry for the delay. Ok, so the reason it was failing was a combination of a bunch of different things.
1) I had the timeout for drawing a plate at 30 minutes. The plate was not finishing drawing in that timeframe, so it was failing. I have upped that time out to 2 hours, so hopefully that helps.
2) You were using the most complex switch cutout, which is not actually recommended anyway because the switch does not clip in as solid as it should. The draw times increase based on the complexity of the switch cutout (like the manufacturing cost). I have actually removed that option completely from the UI because no one should be using that. If you really need to rotate a switch, then rotate the cutout instead (details in the 'layout help' section). If you REALLY must have that cutout, I have actually left it in the code, but you have to specify the {_t:3} on any key you want to use it on in your layout.
3) This is not something you had any control over, but the SVG export takes a VERY long time. It is like 10x as long as any of the other exports because of the way it does the export. Because of this, I have removed it from the default export formats and I have added an 'Export SVG' toggle as an option. So if you actually want to export an SVG, you just have to turn on the 'Export SVG' option and that export format will be included. Otherwise it will not be exported by default.
This should take care of the lion share of the issues with the cad taking WAY too long to draw. Let me know if you have any other issues. :)
Post by: sethk_ on Fri, 20 February 2015, 23:52:02
I honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!Ok, and 12x12 with .5 spacing between each key seems to give me the same error as well.I am getting an Internal Server Error whenever I try to generate a 15x15 platePost the layout you are using and a screenshot of your settings and I will get it sorted. Thanks for the heads up.
15 x 15
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fb056a32269ea05755bda1eeaef97d94Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/cf19f54b9e721dec7c096e90657f67c2.png)
12 x 12 w/ .5 spacing
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d4ec6bbf397bcf0923d35f00541b657bShow Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5db050f85286e36cedf779ede77b7e89.png)
Alright, sorry for the delay. Ok, so the reason it was failing was a combination of a bunch of different things.
1) I had the timeout for drawing a plate at 30 minutes. The plate was not finishing drawing in that timeframe, so it was failing. I have upped that time out to 2 hours, so hopefully that helps.
2) You were using the most complex switch cutout, which is not actually recommended anyway because the switch does not clip in as solid as it should. The draw times increase based on the complexity of the switch cutout (like the manufacturing cost). I have actually removed that option completely from the UI because no one should be using that. If you really need to rotate a switch, then rotate the cutout instead. If you REALLY must have that cutout, I have actually left it in the code, but you have to specify the {_t:3} on any key you want to use it on in your layout.
3) This is not something you had any control over, but the SVG export takes a VERY long time. It is like 10x as long as any of the other exports because of the way it does the export. Because of this, I have removed it from the default export formats and I have added an 'Export SVG' toggle as an option. So if you actually want to export an SVG, you just have to turn on the 'Export SVG' option and that export format will be included. Otherwise it will not be exported by default.
This should take care of the lion share of the issues with the cad taking WAY too long to draw. Let me know if you have any other issues. :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 23:56:01
I honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Post by: sethk_ on Fri, 20 February 2015, 23:57:03
Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 February 2015, 23:58:00
Ya. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:14:50
Ya. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:15:30
Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:16:37
Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:18:00
I hope you dont mind me asking, and this isn't coming off condescending, but what are you supposed to do with them after you solder them into the enabler pcb?Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:24:46
Top Right:
(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:
(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:
(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:
(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:26:52
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:27:14
I hope you dont mind me asking, and this isn't coming off condescending, but what are you supposed to do with them after you solder them into the enabler pcb?Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)Oh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Mount in the plate and finish soldering the matrix.
This is one build that has been done with them. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0
Some people don't see the point of them but I don't see any other decent way for LED's on a hand wired matrix. Plus being able to do full custom layout for any plate and being able to swap without desoldering on a stock plate is nice.
I have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Padding is from the edge of the cap not the edge of the hole. I believe Swill sized that off DCS caps from SP which are .715" square.
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:29:10
Ah, that actually makes a lot more sense, I have 3 of them that I was screwing around with, that is very useful now that I know how they actually work.I hope you dont mind me asking, and this isn't coming off condescending, but what are you supposed to do with them after you solder them into the enabler pcb?Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)MoreOh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Mount in the plate and finish soldering the matrix.
This is one build that has been done with them. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0
Some people don't see the point of them but I don't see any other decent way for LED's on a hand wired matrix. Plus being able to do full custom layout for any plate and being able to swap without desoldering on a stock plate is nice.I have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Padding is from the edge of the cap not the edge of the hole. I believe Swill sized that off DCS caps from SP which are .715" square.
[/more]
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 21 February 2015, 00:30:49
Ah, that actually makes a lot more sense, I have 3 of them that I was screwing around with, that is very useful now that I know how they actually work.I hope you dont mind me asking, and this isn't coming off condescending, but what are you supposed to do with them after you solder them into the enabler pcb?Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)MoreOh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Mount in the plate and finish soldering the matrix.
This is one build that has been done with them. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0
Some people don't see the point of them but I don't see any other decent way for LED's on a hand wired matrix. Plus being able to do full custom layout for any plate and being able to swap without desoldering on a stock plate is nice.I have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Padding is from the edge of the cap not the edge of the hole. I believe Swill sized that off DCS caps from SP which are .715" square.
[/more]
I really need to put this link in my signature. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57511.msg1481480#msg1481480
Post by: sypl on Sat, 21 February 2015, 05:39:52
Functionality Update...
So this may not seem like a huge update because it is only one feature, but I had to refactor a lot of code to add this functionality, so it feels like a big feature to me. :)
I have added support for drawing all of the different layers of the sandwich case. The top layer did not change. I have added two middle layers, one is just a spacer and does not have any cutouts and the other has a 1cm cutout in the center for the USB connection. I have also added the bottom layer.
Tremendous work!
Post by: phishy on Sat, 21 February 2015, 05:44:03
Ah, that actually makes a lot more sense, I have 3 of them that I was screwing around with, that is very useful now that I know how they actually work.I hope you dont mind me asking, and this isn't coming off condescending, but what are you supposed to do with them after you solder them into the enabler pcb?Yeah, probably the hardest part :PYa. I had not thought of that either, but JD educated me on the topic. :)MoreOh wow, I didn't even think about that since all I have to do is unclip, thanks for the adviceI honestly think I clicked that last cutout by accident, and thanks for the help and support!
If you are hand wiring, I strongly recommend the simple square. It is the most stable cutout and you don't have to worry about desoldering to open the switch because you can unclip without desoldering. I will probably mention this a lot in this thread, but it is worth repeating. It is also the easiest to manufacture and will bring down the cost of the plates when you get them cut.
Just make sure to leave enough length on the leads for the bottom of the tabs to clear the plate.
This was actually the primary reason I wanted the Enablers the size they are. Well, that and you can do half the soldering before installing in the plate.
Mount in the plate and finish soldering the matrix.
This is one build that has been done with them. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0
Some people don't see the point of them but I don't see any other decent way for LED's on a hand wired matrix. Plus being able to do full custom layout for any plate and being able to swap without desoldering on a stock plate is nice.I have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Padding is from the edge of the cap not the edge of the hole. I believe Swill sized that off DCS caps from SP which are .715" square.
[/more]
I really need to put this link in my signature. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57511.msg1481480#msg1481480
Oh wow those look convenient. Wish I had about 70 of em right now haha.
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 08:03:49
techkeys.us is selling them, unless they are out of stock.
Oh wow those look convenient. Wish I had about 70 of em right now haha.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 21 February 2015, 10:49:25
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 21 February 2015, 13:23:48
Yeah they are sold out of em.
Send i3oilermaker a pm. I know he has had stock number issues with the site before. And I see the site is down right now. He just bought a bunch from me and I don't think they would have sold out that quick. The other big advantage is being able to use pcb mount stabs with a hand wired layout.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 February 2015, 14:21:56
I have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Here are how the measurements work.
If you had a single switch cutout without any padding you would have the following:
[attachimg=1]
Basically, the switches are 19.05mm apart (center to center) from each other. If you only have one switch, the plate will actually be 19.05mm (if you don't have any padding). So it is not exactly the same size as a keycap, it is slightly bigger than keycap. It is the space in which the key lives taking into account the spacing from other keys.
If you had two keys without padding, it would look like the following:
[attachimg=2]
Now lets add 2mm of padding just to show the change in numbers:
[attachimg=3]
Now lets add {x:0.5} to the first key to see how it shifts it. In this example I removed the padding to simplify the numbers:
[attachimg=4]
Notice that the following is true: 19.05/2 + 2.525 = 12.05
Does this all make sense now? Any follow up questions?
Post by: sethk_ on Sat, 21 February 2015, 14:27:20
Yeah, no more questions now, I figured out my issue, I added {x:0.05} to the raw data where it shouldnt have beenI have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Here are how the measurements work.
If you had a single switch cutout without any padding you would have the following:
(Attachment Link)
Basically, the switches are 19.05mm apart (center to center) from each other. If you only have one switch, the plate will actually be 19.05mm (if you don't have any padding). So it is not exactly the same size as a keycap, it is slightly bigger than keycap. It is the space in which the key lives taking into account the spacing from other keys.
If you had two keys without padding, it would look like the following:
(Attachment Link)
Now lets add 2mm of padding just to show the change in numbers:
(Attachment Link)
Now lets add {x:0.5} to the first key to see how it shifts it. In this example I removed the padding to simplify the numbers:
(Attachment Link)
Notice that the following is true: 19.05/2 + 2.525 = 12.05
Does this all make sense now? Any follow up questions?
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 February 2015, 14:33:46
Good good. :)Yeah, no more questions now, I figured out my issue, I added {x:0.05} to the raw data where it shouldnt have beenI have also encountered a spacing issue: on the top left corner, my spacing is 10mm, and when measured in LibreCAD, it give me a measurement (from the top right corner of the switch cutout) 22.000 x 22.000, but the top rightcorner is 22.000 vert, and 12.5 hori. Bottom rightcorner is 12.5 vert by 12.5 hori, and the bottom left corner is 12.5 vert, and 22.000 hori.
Top Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/862aadaa9e2deaaf430a0983d5839f28.png)
Top Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/3195ffa7740ff493d127b2f50aad075a.png)
Bottom Right:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/5cda14d41a7ca34b25c0df3e5e5ce727.png)
Bottom Left:Show Image(http://i.gyazo.com/e6531f0819a7e8cf47cedf9fd4b4a290.png)
Here are how the measurements work.
If you had a single switch cutout without any padding you would have the following:
(Attachment Link)
Basically, the switches are 19.05mm apart (center to center) from each other. If you only have one switch, the plate will actually be 19.05mm (if you don't have any padding). So it is not exactly the same size as a keycap, it is slightly bigger than keycap. It is the space in which the key lives taking into account the spacing from other keys.
If you had two keys without padding, it would look like the following:
(Attachment Link)
Now lets add 2mm of padding just to show the change in numbers:
(Attachment Link)
Now lets add {x:0.5} to the first key to see how it shifts it. In this example I removed the padding to simplify the numbers:
(Attachment Link)
Notice that the following is true: 19.05/2 + 2.525 = 12.05
Does this all make sense now? Any follow up questions?
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sun, 22 February 2015, 19:44:56
I kind of expected it to not line up. Now that I know it for a fact, how do I get this to work?
Anyone know what spacing I should use on the layout editor?
Measuring stuff in the PCB drawing is giving me weird numbers with up to 4 decimal places.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, or I'm just too lazy to measure and calculate every switch's position one at a time while not really knowing what I'm doing. lol
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:09:50
BTW, we're having a contest to give away $450 in services: http://a.pgtb.me/mhW3Q6
Post by: neverused on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:48:36
I may use this tool to order a plate if the SD-60 doesn't show progress soon.
Post by: phishy on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:49:05
I haven't seen any orders the past couple days for this. What's everyone waiting for?
BTW, we're having a contest to give away $450 in services: http://a.pgtb.me/mhW3Q6
I get my parts tomorrow so i'll post up pics of quality/fitment and hopefully that will get people to start ordering up stuff for their projects.
Post by: phishy on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:50:23
May I ask what the final kerf value was for bigbluesaw?
I may use this tool to order a plate if the SD-60 doesn't show progress soon.
They adjust kerf themselves due to its being dependent on nozzle wear. But they have switches and stabs to confirm fitment so you can rest easy knowing that everything will fit properly.
Post by: neverused on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:51:00
Awesome thank you!May I ask what the final kerf value was for bigbluesaw?
I may use this tool to order a plate if the SD-60 doesn't show progress soon.
They adjust kerf themselves due to its being dependent on nozzle wear. But they have switches and stabs to confirm fitment so you can rest easy knowing that everything will fit properly.
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:53:58
May I ask what the final kerf value was for bigbluesaw?For their waterjet (aluminum and steels) they will adjust for kerf, so just leave kerf at zero. If you are having them laser cut for you, you may want to check since I think they will want kerf set.
I may use this tool to order a plate if the SD-60 doesn't show progress soon.
Post by: neverused on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:59:03
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 February 2015, 21:47:38
I'm going to look into waterjet and will use your tool to test it out
If you have any questions about the processing, ask BigBlueSaw. we have been working together to make sure their service is tailored to give us good quality services.
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 February 2015, 21:50:25
I haven't seen any orders the past couple days for this. What's everyone waiting for?
BTW, we're having a contest to give away $450 in services: http://a.pgtb.me/mhW3Q6
Very cool. Thank you for posting this and letting us know about this contest. We should really start a thread just for that so people can bang around ideas and raise visibility of your services and the contest by creating hype in its own right. :)
I will be sending you a project this week. :)
Post by: tjweir on Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:58:42
(http://i.imgur.com/bS84sZ9.png)
I have the .dxf and .svg if you want to look at them @swill.
There is a chance I totally messed this up, it was my first time.
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:01:16
I just uploaded a .dxf to BigBlueSaw and it appears that I need an 8 foot by 8 foot plate. 0_oShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/bS84sZ9.png)
I have the .dxf and .svg if you want to look at them @swill.
There is a chance I totally messed this up, it was my first time.
Sounds like the drawing was in mm, but they interpreted it in inches.
Post by: joey on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:04:50
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:15:57
I just uploaded a .dxf to BigBlueSaw and it appears that I need an 8 foot by 8 foot plate. 0_oShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/bS84sZ9.png)
I have the .dxf and .svg if you want to look at them @swill.
There is a chance I totally messed this up, it was my first time.
Yes, JD is correct. Currently there is no unit information in the DXF export, so I export in mm and BBS picks it up and defaults to inches. You can open the file in LibreCAD and export as DXF again and it will export the file in a more recent version of DXF and it will include the correct mm units.
Post by: abjr on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:27:29
Post by: tjweir on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:28:56
I just uploaded a .dxf to BigBlueSaw and it appears that I need an 8 foot by 8 foot plate. 0_oShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/bS84sZ9.png)
I have the .dxf and .svg if you want to look at them @swill.
There is a chance I totally messed this up, it was my first time.
Yes, JD is correct. Currently there is no unit information in the DXF export, so I export in mm and BBS picks it up and defaults to inches. You can open the file in LibreCAD and export as DXF again and it will export the file in a more recent version of DXF and it will include the correct mm units.
Ah, excellent, thank you both.
Post by: vicibz on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:38:03
I have some questions which may sound stupid but I really have no idea. It's concerning the screws. I will have 6 mount holes and I need some help figuring out the correct size. If I plan to use M2 screws (2mm diameter, right) do the holes need to be 2mm as well or do they have to be a bit bigger? Is there any reccomended size or anythig bigger than M2 M2,5 is too big?
Thanks!
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:26:06
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:38:12
I'm planning on building my first custom keyboard and your plate building tool is going to save us all many hours, thanks!
I have some questions which may sound stupid but I really have no idea. It's concerning the screws. I will have 6 mount holes and I need some help figuring out the correct size. If I plan to use M2 screws (2mm diameter, right) do the holes need to be 2mm as well or do they have to be a bit bigger? Is there any reccomended size or anythig bigger than M2 M2,5 is too big?
Thanks!
What are some appropriate values to use for the Mount Hole diameter and Plate Corner radius? I used 2.7mm and 2mm respectively and the edge of the holes are about 1.15mm from the edge of the plate. I'm not sure if that would lead to the head of the screw overhanging the plate.
These are good questions and I don't really have a good answer for you. I would suggest that if you are going to use M2 screws that you make the holes at least 2.25mm in diameter. Some of the cuts that I have seen from BBS so far are erroring on slightly too small (like .15mm smaller than drawn). This should ensure that the screws will fit through without issues even if the hole is slightly smaller than spec.
As for the overhang. I will have to get a caliper on the heads of some M2 (and M3) screws when I get home to give you a better idea of what you should be looking at for this.
On my next build project I plan to use M3 screws. I am planning to make my mount holes a little smaller than 3mm so I can tap the holes and I will be screwing the plates together without nuts. I plan to make a wooden spacer between my plates. I am really interested in tapping the plates as I think it makes so much more sense than using screws. I hope it works well. It worked well in 5mm acrylic, so I am pretty sure that 1.5mm aluminum should work. We will see...
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:39:10
I just got my plate from UPS. Looks awesome and the switches fit great and snug. I'm actually not seeing any side to side play like in the video, im assuming he had to use ALOT of force to get it to slide. Either way A+ and now can confirm that the tool works and that bigbluesaw is the go-to for getting this done online.
SWEET!!! Thanks for reporting back. :)
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:00:53
Post by: neverused on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:03:51
I just got my plate from UPS. Looks awesome and the switches fit great and snug. I'm actually not seeing any side to side play like in the video, im assuming he had to use ALOT of force to get it to slide. Either way A+ and now can confirm that the tool works and that bigbluesaw is the go-to for getting this done online.Out of curiosity, did you use the standard cut out that's a simple square or a different choice?
Thanks,
neverused
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:05:11
I just got my plate from UPS. Looks awesome and the switches fit great and snug. I'm actually not seeing any side to side play like in the video, im assuming he had to use ALOT of force to get it to slide. Either way A+ and now can confirm that the tool works and that bigbluesaw is the go-to for getting this done online.Out of curiosity, did you use the standard cut out that's a simple square or a different choice?
Thanks,
neverused
From looking at the video, it would seem they were the "combined Alps/MX" holes, or the second from the left.
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:11:54
Yes. I can confirm this.I just got my plate from UPS. Looks awesome and the switches fit great and snug. I'm actually not seeing any side to side play like in the video, im assuming he had to use ALOT of force to get it to slide. Either way A+ and now can confirm that the tool works and that bigbluesaw is the go-to for getting this done online.Out of curiosity, did you use the standard cut out that's a simple square or a different choice?
Thanks,
neverused
From looking at the video, it would seem they were the "combined Alps/MX" holes, or the second from the left.
Post by: neverused on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:14:30
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:19:27
I just got my plate from UPS. Looks awesome and the switches fit great and snug. I'm actually not seeing any side to side play like in the video, im assuming he had to use ALOT of force to get it to slide. Either way A+ and now can confirm that the tool works and that bigbluesaw is the go-to for getting this done online.Great to hear it. Please keep us up to date on your build.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:30:33
And in the future I'll probably just use the 1st style cutouts. I've actually 2 more projects in the works once I free up some money so I'll be in touch soon.
Also anyone where have recommendations for a company that can mill polycarbonate?
Post by: vicibz on Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:55:14
And in the future I'll probably just use the 1st style cutouts. I've actually 2 more projects in the works once I free up some money so I'll be in touch soon.
May I ask why?
Is your plate aluminium or stainless steel? I still have to decide for both the switches' plate and the bottom plate :)
Would it be too heavy having both of steel?
Would it look weird having one of each (top aluminium, bottom steel)?
Thanks again!
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 February 2015, 16:15:12
Also, you can just unclip the switch from the plate to open the top, when they are hand wired with no PCB. You don't need the cutouts in the sides of the switch holes at all.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 16:20:17
Thanks for the answers. I think I will go with 3.2mmAnd in the future I'll probably just use the 1st style cutouts. I've actually 2 more projects in the works once I free up some money so I'll be in touch soon.
May I ask why?
Is your plate aluminium or stainless steel? I still have to decide for both the switches' plate and the bottom plate :)
Would it be too heavy having both of steel?
Would it look weird having one of each (top aluminium, bottom steel)?
Thanks again!
For the sheer fact that I'm not using alps and because I'm hand wiring I don't need to be able to open switches while they are mounted to the plate.
Also I used aluminum so it's lighter. The goal of this keyboard is to be small and light. I'm going to end up putting a finish on the aluminum anyways.
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 24 February 2015, 18:35:22
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 24 February 2015, 18:42:48
So I made a 60% layout, put it into the builder, download the DXF, but when I tried to input it to big blue saw's website, it tried to tell me that the design was 97" long and couldn't process itOpen it up in LibreCAD and save it as a DXF 2010 model, then reupload it, BBS defaults to in, and the way the file is saved doesn't suppor UOM.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 19:15:54
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 24 February 2015, 19:47:33
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.What material and kerf did you use?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 19:56:25
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.What material and kerf did you use?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
6061 Aluminum and I didn't use kerf. If you're using Big Blue Saw (I recommend them) they will adjust for kerf on their end.
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 24 February 2015, 19:59:11
Ok, thanks! And what program did you use to resize and what did you do in the program, I wan't to get it right on my first try, and sorry for the questions.Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.What material and kerf did you use?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
6061 Aluminum and I didn't use kerf. If you're using Big Blue Saw (I recommend them) they will adjust for kerf on their end.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:02:20
Ok, thanks! And what program did you use to resize and what did you do in the program, I wan't to get it right on my first try, and sorry for the questions.Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.What material and kerf did you use?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
6061 Aluminum and I didn't use kerf. If you're using Big Blue Saw (I recommend them) they will adjust for kerf on their end.
BBS actually did it for me orginally because there was no DFX on the tool yet, but you can open with librecad and resave it. I actually just installed librecad so I can price my next project, if you have any problems getting it right you can send me the DFX file and I'll fix it for you so it's good to send into BBS.
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:06:03
Thanks!Ok, thanks! And what program did you use to resize and what did you do in the program, I wan't to get it right on my first try, and sorry for the questions.Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.What material and kerf did you use?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
6061 Aluminum and I didn't use kerf. If you're using Big Blue Saw (I recommend them) they will adjust for kerf on their end.
BBS actually did it for me orginally because there was no DFX on the tool yet, but you can open with librecad and resave it. I actually just installed librecad so I can price my next project, if you have any problems getting it right you can send me the DFX file and I'll fix it for you so it's good to send into BBS.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:24:00
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:30:59
Actually I just downloaded the latest version of librecad and loaded my dxf file up. Trying to now re-save it but the latest version of DXF it supports is 2007. Re-saving as this and uploading to BBS still doesnt work. I've set the default values of the program to inches. Anything else I need to do.I thought someone had reported that it had worked. I will do more testing tonight and will try to make this clearer in the tool since it is coming up often.
Thanks for all the help in answering questions. :). Putting a baby to bed, so I have not been available to answer questions yet tonight.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:44:59
Actually I just downloaded the latest version of librecad and loaded my dxf file up. Trying to now re-save it but the latest version of DXF it supports is 2007. Re-saving as this and uploading to BBS still doesnt work. I've set the default values of the program to inches. Anything else I need to do.I thought someone had reported that it had worked. I will do more testing tonight and will try to make this clearer in the tool since it is coming up often.
Thanks for all the help in answering questions. :). Putting a baby to bed, so I have not been available to answer questions yet tonight.
It's all good man. Your tool is what brought me here and I'm excited with the direction it's gone in and the progress with big blue saw coming on board. **** like this keeps me entertained.
Post by: neverused on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:45:27
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.Very nice. Will this be getting its own thread? Also do you mind if I ask how much that was to have made?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:57:40
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.BTW. What size holes did you use? Have you tested bolts/screws yet for fit?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:04:48
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.Very nice. Will this be getting its own thread? Also do you mind if I ask how much that was to have made?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
Yeah i'll be starting a build thread soon for it when I get the rest of my stuff. It was 92.10 which seems to be the flat rate for 1offs unless it requires enough work to push it over that price. for 5 or more it was only like 42 bucks a set.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:05:34
Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.BTW. What size holes did you use? Have you tested bolts/screws yet for fit?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
I used 3mm holes. Havent had a chance to test out the fit but I'm sure they will probably be slightly too tight. I have access to a drill press though if need be.
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:14:20
If they are really too small, consider tapping them. That's what I will be doing, so mine will be intentionally small. What padding did you use?Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.BTW. What size holes did you use? Have you tested bolts/screws yet for fit?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
I used 3mm holes. Havent had a chance to test out the fit but I'm sure they will probably be slightly too tight. I have access to a drill press though if need be.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:21:57
If they are really too small, consider tapping them. That's what I will be doing, so mine will be intentionally small. What padding did you use?Don't know why I installed all the switches...gotta take em back out to anodize or paint the plate anyways. Now I gotta order diodes, keycaps, controller, stabs and wires and soldering stuff.BTW. What size holes did you use? Have you tested bolts/screws yet for fit?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/0224151934_zpshvjnqjdw.jpg.html)
I used 3mm holes. Havent had a chance to test out the fit but I'm sure they will probably be slightly too tight. I have access to a drill press though if need be.
I used 5mm padding. And yeah I've considered tapping the bottom plate. For this one the KB will be open air, just going to find metal spacers to put between the plates.
Post by: abjr on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:46:08
What are some appropriate values to use for the Mount Hole diameter and Plate Corner radius? I used 2.7mm and 2mm respectively and the edge of the holes are about 1.15mm from the edge of the plate. I'm not sure if that would lead to the head of the screw overhanging the plate.
These are good questions and I don't really have a good answer for you. I would suggest that if you are going to use M2 screws that you make the holes at least 2.25mm in diameter. Some of the cuts that I have seen from BBS so far are erroring on slightly too small (like .15mm smaller than drawn). This should ensure that the screws will fit through without issues even if the hole is slightly smaller than spec.
As for the overhang. I will have to get a caliper on the heads of some M2 (and M3) screws when I get home to give you a better idea of what you should be looking at for this.
Thanks, that would be really helpful.
Actually I just downloaded the latest version of librecad and loaded my dxf file up. Trying to now re-save it but the latest version of DXF it supports is 2007. Re-saving as this and uploading to BBS still doesnt work. I've set the default values of the program to inches. Anything else I need to do.I thought someone had reported that it had worked. I will do more testing tonight and will try to make this clearer in the tool since it is coming up often.
That might have been me. I just tried again with Draftsight (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1643432#msg1643432) and LibreCAD. It worked fine with both. LibreCAD worked fine as DXF 2007.
Post by: phishy on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:56:58
What are some appropriate values to use for the Mount Hole diameter and Plate Corner radius? I used 2.7mm and 2mm respectively and the edge of the holes are about 1.15mm from the edge of the plate. I'm not sure if that would lead to the head of the screw overhanging the plate.
These are good questions and I don't really have a good answer for you. I would suggest that if you are going to use M2 screws that you make the holes at least 2.25mm in diameter. Some of the cuts that I have seen from BBS so far are erroring on slightly too small (like .15mm smaller than drawn). This should ensure that the screws will fit through without issues even if the hole is slightly smaller than spec.
As for the overhang. I will have to get a caliper on the heads of some M2 (and M3) screws when I get home to give you a better idea of what you should be looking at for this.
Thanks, that would be really helpful.Actually I just downloaded the latest version of librecad and loaded my dxf file up. Trying to now re-save it but the latest version of DXF it supports is 2007. Re-saving as this and uploading to BBS still doesnt work. I've set the default values of the program to inches. Anything else I need to do.I thought someone had reported that it had worked. I will do more testing tonight and will try to make this clearer in the tool since it is coming up often.
That might have been me. I just tried again with Draftsight (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1643432#msg1643432) and LibreCAD. It worked fine with both. LibreCAD worked fine as DXF 2007.
So you saved the DXF, opened it in librecad, resaved as DXF 2007 and that's it? Or does something need to be changed in librecad first?
Post by: abjr on Tue, 24 February 2015, 22:20:09
So you saved the DXF, opened it in librecad, resaved as DXF 2007 and that's it? Or does something need to be changed in librecad first?
Yes, just make sure your "Main Drawing Unit" is set to millimeters. Edit -> Current Drawing Preferences -> Units.
You can confirm it worked by opening your DXF in a text editor after you've saved it in LibreCAD and looking for:
Code: [Select]
$ACADVER
1
AC1021
9
and
Code: [Select]
$INSUNITS
70
4
9
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 22:35:05
What are some appropriate values to use for the Mount Hole diameter and Plate Corner radius? I used 2.7mm and 2mm respectively and the edge of the holes are about 1.15mm from the edge of the plate. I'm not sure if that would lead to the head of the screw overhanging the plate.
These are good questions and I don't really have a good answer for you. I would suggest that if you are going to use M2 screws that you make the holes at least 2.25mm in diameter. Some of the cuts that I have seen from BBS so far are erroring on slightly too small (like .15mm smaller than drawn). This should ensure that the screws will fit through without issues even if the hole is slightly smaller than spec.
As for the overhang. I will have to get a caliper on the heads of some M2 (and M3) screws when I get home to give you a better idea of what you should be looking at for this.
Thanks, that would be really helpful.Actually I just downloaded the latest version of librecad and loaded my dxf file up. Trying to now re-save it but the latest version of DXF it supports is 2007. Re-saving as this and uploading to BBS still doesnt work. I've set the default values of the program to inches. Anything else I need to do.I thought someone had reported that it had worked. I will do more testing tonight and will try to make this clearer in the tool since it is coming up often.
That might have been me. I just tried again with Draftsight (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1643432#msg1643432) and LibreCAD. It worked fine with both. LibreCAD worked fine as DXF 2007.
Alright, when I put a caliper on the screws I have I get the following:
M2 Screw section: 1.9mm
M2 Head: 3.4mm
M3 Screw section: 2.9mm
M3 Head: 5.1mm
I found this chart to be helpful for understanding what size holes I should be using.
https://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/TapDrillSizes.pdf
Hope those measurements help...
As for converting the DXF files:
- I have tested with LibreCAD (http://librecad.org/cms/home.html) exporting as DXF 2007 and it works perfectly for uploading to BBS. NOTE: My default unit of measure in LibreCAD is MM. I have this setting in: Preferences > Defaults > Unit
- I was going to try DraftSight, but my evaluation expired and I was too lazy to do anything about it. :P
- I tried Teigha File Converter, but since the source file does not have UOM, it defaults to inches, so this does not help us. If you need to convert a DXF 2007 with UOM correctly set to mm and you need it in a different format like DXF 2013, this would be a good option. Keep in mind that you want to use ASCII in order for it to be usable by BBS.
- I tested with Inkscape, and it did not work. I ended up with a corrupted file.
In short, I think LibreCAD is the best option. It is quick and easy to download and run and it is cross platform and free.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 24 February 2015, 22:38:30
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:07:28
I was also considering having them cut me spacer layers in some interesting material. Cork?, Cherry wood?, Acrylic (boring), Leather? Gasket material? It would be fun to use some non-traditional materials for this build...
Ideas?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:28:26
I was just playing around on BBS and I was looking at different materials. Is there a reason I would not use Copper? Was considering it since it is a bit different and I have never seen anyone else with something like that (maybe for a reason). :)
I was also considering having them cut me spacer layers in some interesting material. Cork?, Cherry wood?, Acrylic (boring), Leather? Gasket material? It would be fun to use some non-traditional materials for this build...
Ideas?
The biggest issue with copper is it will tarnish within hours of touching it with bare fingers. The other more organic and softer materials like cork and leather would add a nice level of deadening to the case.
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:29:54
I was just playing around on BBS and I was looking at different materials. Is there a reason I would not use Copper? Was considering it since it is a bit different and I have never seen anyone else with something like that (maybe for a reason). :)
I was also considering having them cut me spacer layers in some interesting material. Cork?, Cherry wood?, Acrylic (boring), Leather? Gasket material? It would be fun to use some non-traditional materials for this build...
Ideas?
The biggest issue with copper is it will tarnish within hours of touching it with bare fingers. The other more organic and softer materials like cork and leather would add a nice level of deadening to the case.
Ya, I was worried about that with copper. I will definitely be doing something fun with the layers. Either wood or something like cork or leather. I think it will make it interesting...
Post by: neverused on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:34:08
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:39:16
I would be concerned with its ductility, it may not hold up to mistreatment or even dropping very well.
I did a little research and it is basically the same hardness as aluminum. Now maybe that is not comparing the exact aluminum alloy and copper alloy, but I would expect copper and aluminum to be pretty similar from that perspective.
Post by: neverused on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:44:39
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:58:40
I would be concerned with its ductility, it may not hold up to mistreatment or even dropping very well.
I did a little research and it is basically the same hardness as aluminum. Now maybe that is not comparing the exact aluminum alloy and copper alloy, but I would expect copper and aluminum to be pretty similar from that perspective.
You would want something to help with the structural integrity. I believe the similarities in ductility are prior to tempering aluminum. T6 aluminum gets pretty damn stiff.
Post by: cmadrid on Wed, 25 February 2015, 01:00:12
Post by: phishy on Wed, 25 February 2015, 01:31:15
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/0e/aa/460eaa1a9aa95e79318f0151162e70d1.jpg)
Post by: Dihedral on Wed, 25 February 2015, 01:46:11
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 25 February 2015, 08:34:21
Brass is popular with a certain crowd. We don't have it listed on the website, but can definitely get it for you.
Phishy's top and bottom plate from aluminum is 0.527 pounds. With stainless steel, it's 1.44 pounds. Just the top plate is 0.192 pounds from Al, 0.53 from SS. I would think heavier would be better.
One thing I haven't mentioned so far: I would recommend that you go for Basic Finish when ordering, as it removes any burrs from cutting, and thus lets the switches fit more easily. With the unfinished piece, you would have to remove the burrs yourself, using a knife, or deburring tool. Or if you have the power tools, a flap wheel or polishing wheel.
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 25 February 2015, 08:54:10
Copper will tarnish, but some people might like that look. I would worry about the ductility of copper in a structural piece like this.
Brass is popular with a certain crowd. We don't have it listed on the website, but can definitely get it for you.
Phishy's top and bottom plate from aluminum is 0.527 pounds. With stainless steel, it's 1.44 pounds. Just the top plate is 0.192 pounds from Al, 0.53 from SS. I would think heavier would be better.
One thing I haven't mentioned so far: I would recommend that you go for Basic Finish when ordering, as it removes any burrs from cutting, and thus lets the switches fit more easily. With the unfinished piece, you would have to remove the burrs yourself, using a knife, or deburring tool. Or if you have the power tools, a flap wheel or polishing wheel.
Or if it is a smaller piece just a file or some good rough emery cloth. That was what I used on my laser cut JD40. The edge of laser cut holes grabs the switch like a vise. I don't have much first hand with water jet though as the Ti JD40s haven't shipped yet.
Post by: swill on Wed, 25 February 2015, 09:00:39
Copper will tarnish, but some people might like that look. I would worry about the ductility of copper in a structural piece like this.
Brass is popular with a certain crowd. We don't have it listed on the website, but can definitely get it for you.
Phishy's top and bottom plate from aluminum is 0.527 pounds. With stainless steel, it's 1.44 pounds. Just the top plate is 0.192 pounds from Al, 0.53 from SS. I would think heavier would be better.
One thing I haven't mentioned so far: I would recommend that you go for Basic Finish when ordering, as it removes any burrs from cutting, and thus lets the switches fit more easily. With the unfinished piece, you would have to remove the burrs yourself, using a knife, or deburring tool. Or if you have the power tools, a flap wheel or polishing wheel.
Awesome, thanks for the info. I think brass would be pretty awesome. I may just go ahead and do my job in brass. People need to know what it would look like right? :P I have no problem being the guinea pig.
Post by: QuiGonJinn on Wed, 25 February 2015, 15:13:09
Post by: joey on Wed, 25 February 2015, 16:20:35
I am thinking of building my first mechanical keyboard, using this builder to laser cut the case, and hand-wire the matrix. I have ordered gateron brown switches with the gb. Can anyone confirm they fit the standard square cutout type?Confirmed.
Post by: swill on Wed, 25 February 2015, 22:28:37
Here is what you can expect to see when your plate finishes rendering:
[attachimg=1]
Thanks again for all the support everyone...
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 25 February 2015, 22:32:06
Post by: swill on Wed, 25 February 2015, 23:32:25
Just have an option box for inches, and if selected, scale the drawing by 0.03937 before the final render?
It is not as easy as you make it sound as far as I know. Unless you know something I don't. :)
The bigger problem is that the exported file does not include the units of measure. So if the shops tools defaulted to 'mm' instead of inches, then we would have the same exact problem, but the other way. If I could get the export to include the UOM, it would solve the problem at its source.
I will be working on this when I have a chance, but I am still trying to figure out how I am going to handle this. I don't want to rewrite all the DXF export functionality in in FreeCAD to support R2000 or above. That is a bigger job than I am willing to take on at this point.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 26 February 2015, 06:23:33
Just have an option box for inches, and if selected, scale the drawing by 0.03937 before the final render?
It is not as easy as you make it sound as far as I know. Unless you know something I don't. :)
The bigger problem is that the exported file does not include the units of measure. So if the shops tools defaulted to 'mm' instead of inches, then we would have the same exact problem, but the other way. If I could get the export to include the UOM, it would solve the problem at its source.
I will be working on this when I have a chance, but I am still trying to figure out how I am going to handle this. I don't want to rewrite all the DXF export functionality in in FreeCAD to support R2000 or above. That is a bigger job than I am willing to take on at this point.
Since librecad is free and most people even attempting to build their own keyboard should have the aptitude to open a file, change default UOM and re-save before uploading I don't think it will be a huge problem.
Post by: MichaelBrock on Thu, 26 February 2015, 07:15:25
Thanks,
Michael
Post by: bueller on Thu, 26 February 2015, 07:26:53
Copper will tarnish, but some people might like that look. I would worry about the ductility of copper in a structural piece like this.
Brass is popular with a certain crowd. We don't have it listed on the website, but can definitely get it for you.
Phishy's top and bottom plate from aluminum is 0.527 pounds. With stainless steel, it's 1.44 pounds. Just the top plate is 0.192 pounds from Al, 0.53 from SS. I would think heavier would be better.
One thing I haven't mentioned so far: I would recommend that you go for Basic Finish when ordering, as it removes any burrs from cutting, and thus lets the switches fit more easily. With the unfinished piece, you would have to remove the burrs yourself, using a knife, or deburring tool. Or if you have the power tools, a flap wheel or polishing wheel.
Now that you've mentioned brass you've given me an idea for one of my cases. On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it? I'd really like to get the Cherry logo and a serial number put on there :)
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 07:52:40
Thank you for this amazing tool! Quite a lot of effort has been put into it. I managed to get a quote from Big Blue Saw (thanks also for the tips on converting the units, that was causing an issue) but it is more than I want to spend right now. I am now trying to get a quote from Ponoko but they require that the cut lines be in blue. I am new to CAD and I'm having trouble editing the individual elements of the .dxf file to change the line color (eg. I can't figure out how to select anything but the entire plate). I am using the suggested LibreCAD. Any tips?
Thanks,
Michael
What you most likely need to do is to export the DXF into an SVG and change the colors there. You could edit the SVG with Adobe Illustrator, Corel Draw, or similar.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 26 February 2015, 08:08:10
On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it?
We don't have a good way to engrave brass.
Post by: bueller on Thu, 26 February 2015, 08:09:33
On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it?
We don't have a good way to engrave brass.
Not a problem, thanks for the prompt reply! You'll still be seeing an order from me soon, want to get the brass plate cut and will also be doing a mini GB for some number pad switch plates.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 08:12:11
On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it?
We don't have a good way to engrave brass.
Not a problem, thanks for the prompt reply! You'll still be seeing an order from me soon, want to get the brass plate cut and will also be doing a mini GB for some number pad switch plates.
I don't think it's possible to laser engrave brass, but if you want to send it to me, I will see what I can do with our engraver (Gravograph IS-7000). I'll ask the lady who runs that engraver if she has any bits that will work on brass.
Post by: bueller on Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:13:16
On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it?
We don't have a good way to engrave brass.
Not a problem, thanks for the prompt reply! You'll still be seeing an order from me soon, want to get the brass plate cut and will also be doing a mini GB for some number pad switch plates.
I don't think it's possible to laser engrave brass, but if you want to send it to me, I will see what I can do with our engraver (Gravograph IS-7000). I'll ask the lady who runs that engraver if she has any bits that will work on brass.
Cheers man, really appreciate it!
Post by: phishy on Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:16:26
On the base of the case is a cutout for a brass plate (150mm x 60mm x 2mm) - if I had you cut the plate would you also be able to do laser engraving on it?
We don't have a good way to engrave brass.
Not a problem, thanks for the prompt reply! You'll still be seeing an order from me soon, want to get the brass plate cut and will also be doing a mini GB for some number pad switch plates.
Since posting in your numpad thread I've been looking into designing and making a numpad kit to offer up...if you want to link up maybe we can combine what both of us are looking into.
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 10:39:15
EDIT: I got the Matias switch in and it works OK. Still probably could do with being a little looser for easier operation.
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 10:57:52
Thank you for this amazing tool! Quite a lot of effort has been put into it. I managed to get a quote from Big Blue Saw (thanks also for the tips on converting the units, that was causing an issue) but it is more than I want to spend right now. I am now trying to get a quote from Ponoko but they require that the cut lines be in blue. I am new to CAD and I'm having trouble editing the individual elements of the .dxf file to change the line color (eg. I can't figure out how to select anything but the entire plate). I am using the suggested LibreCAD. Any tips?
Thanks,
Michael
What you most likely need to do is to export the DXF into an SVG and change the colors there. You could edit the SVG with Adobe Illustrator, Corel Draw, or similar.
Or just turn on the 'Export SVG' feature in my tool and just download the SVG that is produced and then change the color in AI or Inkscape or the like...
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:00:51
I 3D printed two of the second cutout. Cherry switches fit in really nicely, but matias ones need just a little more room, I can't get them in. Otherwise, good job :)
EDIT: I got the Matias switch in and it works OK. Still probably could do with being a little looser for easier operation.
We had a similar experience in testing with BBS, I need to revisit that cutout and find an Alps spec so I can verify what their spec says. I was only using JD as a reference for that cutout shape.
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:12:42
I 3D printed two of the second cutout. Cherry switches fit in really nicely, but matias ones need just a little more room, I can't get them in. Otherwise, good job :)
EDIT: I got the Matias switch in and it works OK. Still probably could do with being a little looser for easier operation.
We had a similar experience in testing with BBS, I need to revisit that cutout and find an Alps spec so I can verify what their spec says. I was only using JD as a reference for that cutout shape.
It literally needs another quarter of a mm each side and it would be fine.
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:47:18
I 3D printed two of the second cutout. Cherry switches fit in really nicely, but matias ones need just a little more room, I can't get them in. Otherwise, good job :)
EDIT: I got the Matias switch in and it works OK. Still probably could do with being a little looser for easier operation.
We had a similar experience in testing with BBS, I need to revisit that cutout and find an Alps spec so I can verify what their spec says. I was only using JD as a reference for that cutout shape.
It literally needs another quarter of a mm each side and it would be fine.
Once you have a working cutout, can you check its width with a caliper so I have an idea of what dimensions are working? Thx...
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:50:01
I 3D printed two of the second cutout. Cherry switches fit in really nicely, but matias ones need just a little more room, I can't get them in. Otherwise, good job :)
EDIT: I got the Matias switch in and it works OK. Still probably could do with being a little looser for easier operation.
We had a similar experience in testing with BBS, I need to revisit that cutout and find an Alps spec so I can verify what their spec says. I was only using JD as a reference for that cutout shape.
It literally needs another quarter of a mm each side and it would be fine.
Once you have a working cutout, can you check its width with a caliper so I have an idea of what dimensions are working? Thx...
I'm afraid I don't have access to a caliper. I might try to sand down the cutout until it reaches the perfect size and see if I can measure the amount of change, but that would only be with a ruler, i'm afraid :/
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:52:17
Once you have a working cutout, can you check its width with a caliper so I have an idea of what dimensions are working? Thx...
I'm afraid I don't have access to a caliper. I might try to sand down the cutout until it reaches the perfect size and see if I can measure the amount of change, but that would only be with a ruler, i'm afraid :/
No worries. I will try to track down the alps spec tonight after work and see if I can figure out why the sizing is not working. Thx...
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:54:33
Once you have a working cutout, can you check its width with a caliper so I have an idea of what dimensions are working? Thx...
I'm afraid I don't have access to a caliper. I might try to sand down the cutout until it reaches the perfect size and see if I can measure the amount of change, but that would only be with a ruler, i'm afraid :/
No worries. I will try to track down the alps spec tonight after work and see if I can figure out why the sizing is not working. Thx...
I was wondering that and suspect that the sizing is accurate, just the Alps spec is particularly tight and intended for high accuracy metal cutting. I imagine that 3D printed material slightly flows past the point where it is supposed to be placed, meaning the cutout would be just a fraction of a millimetre small.
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 11:57:34
Once you have a working cutout, can you check its width with a caliper so I have an idea of what dimensions are working? Thx...
I'm afraid I don't have access to a caliper. I might try to sand down the cutout until it reaches the perfect size and see if I can measure the amount of change, but that would only be with a ruler, i'm afraid :/
No worries. I will try to track down the alps spec tonight after work and see if I can figure out why the sizing is not working. Thx...
I was wondering that and suspect that the sizing is accurate, just the Alps spec is particularly tight and intended for high accuracy metal cutting. I imagine that 3D printed material slightly flows past the point where it is supposed to be placed, meaning the cutout would be just a fraction of a millimetre small.
I suspect something similar. With the test plate that BBS and I were testing, the cutout was only 15.5mm wide instead of 15.6mm and it was stopping the action of the switch once set in the plate, so the tolerances we are working with here are definitely might tighter than with working with MX. I may need to make it a bit bigger just to be sure that the tolerances are not so tight.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:11:04
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:28:49
I have an Alps switch opening CAD drawing that seems to use Imperial measurements (0.510 x 0.615 inches) converted to metric (12.9539 x 15.6211 mm). So maybe the tightness is due to rounding errors?
Combination of rounding errors on top of kerf?
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:34:38
I have an Alps switch opening CAD drawing that seems to use Imperial measurements (0.510 x 0.615 inches) converted to metric (12.9539 x 15.6211 mm). So maybe the tightness is due to rounding errors?
I dont think it would be a rounding error since it is programmed in my tool to be 15.6 x 12.8. The initial results produced by BBS were a hair smaller than the drawing. It was closer to 15.5 x 12.7, so I think the tolerances for Alps is just really tight and I may want to adjust my drawing a bit to account for this.
JD, do you happen to have a plate cut with that cutout that you know works with alps? If so, can you put a caliper on it and give me an idea of what the final dimension of that cutout ended up being?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:40:56
I have an Alps switch opening CAD drawing that seems to use Imperial measurements (0.510 x 0.615 inches) converted to metric (12.9539 x 15.6211 mm). So maybe the tightness is due to rounding errors?
I dont think it would be a rounding error since it is programmed in my tool to be 15.6 x 12.8. The initial results produced by BBS were a hair smaller than the drawing. It was closer to 15.5 x 12.7, so I think the tolerances for Alps is just really tight and I may want to adjust my drawing a bit to account for this.
JD, do you happen to have a plate cut with that cutout that you know works with alps? If so, can you put a caliper on it and give me an idea of what the final dimension of that cutout ended up being?
I have plates with my cutout (not the one you drew up to the actual spec), and factory Alps plates, but no calipers. :(
If I were to purchase some calipers from, say, Amazon, what do you guys recommend that wouldn't break the bank?
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:47:35
(http://i.imgur.com/1skzU20.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/pSRZnGI.png)
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:49:31
I have an Alps switch opening CAD drawing that seems to use Imperial measurements (0.510 x 0.615 inches) converted to metric (12.9539 x 15.6211 mm). So maybe the tightness is due to rounding errors?
I dont think it would be a rounding error since it is programmed in my tool to be 15.6 x 12.8. The initial results produced by BBS were a hair smaller than the drawing. It was closer to 15.5 x 12.7, so I think the tolerances for Alps is just really tight and I may want to adjust my drawing a bit to account for this.
JD, do you happen to have a plate cut with that cutout that you know works with alps? If so, can you put a caliper on it and give me an idea of what the final dimension of that cutout ended up being?
I have plates with my cutout (not the one you drew up to the actual spec), and factory Alps plates, but no calipers. :(
If I were to purchase some calipers from, say, Amazon, what do you guys recommend that wouldn't break the bank?
I don't know anything, but this has sold enough to presumably not suck. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/150mm-ELECTRONIC-DIGITAL-CALIPERS-VERNIER/dp/B007K7F04C/) (Sorry for uk link, im sure its on US too.)
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:56:50
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:59:25
Okay, I just bought these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AQEZ2W/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), which should arrive on Saturday. I'll get some measurements for you then, swill. :D
That's a hell of a discount!
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 13:13:44
Okay, I just bought these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AQEZ2W/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), which should arrive on Saturday. I'll get some measurements for you then, swill. :D
Awesome. :)
I actually use one of the old school calipers. This thing has been through thick and thin with me. I love the simplicity of it.
It is something like this: http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/vernier3.htm
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 26 February 2015, 13:20:23
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 26 February 2015, 13:21:20
I'm all about that Mitutoyo. Got a set of dial calipers from them. I prefer dial to the vernier scale...and digital.
One day, sir. For right now, these were $27. ;)
Post by: cmadrid on Thu, 26 February 2015, 13:39:24
Okay, I just bought these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AQEZ2W/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), which should arrive on Saturday. I'll get some measurements for you then, swill. :D
This is wallethack!?
http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-64PKA077-Digimatic-Micrometer-0-150mm/dp/B001C15WJ0/ref=sr_1_7?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1424979532&sr=1-7&keywords=micrometers
Post by: cmadrid on Thu, 26 February 2015, 13:41:22
edit: Ah, wait, its for 64 of them. GROUPBUY!
Post by: swornxin on Thu, 26 February 2015, 18:25:21
This program is really incredible, Swill. Thanks for taking the time to create and share it with us all!
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:56:35
I've kind of figured out a plate to use strictly as a lubing station. Do you think that I can get away with using a type of plastic as the plate material for that? The aluminum and stainless steel is just too expensive for me to justify it.The short answer is, it depends.
This program is really incredible, Swill. Thanks for taking the time to create and share it with us all!
If you are only just lubing, then probably. But once you get into building you will start to want to do more in depth mods.
For example. If you use sip sockets, then you will need to put the LEDs in before you solder. This makes the most sense to do in your lube station. Unfortunately, the LEDs don't always easily go into the sip sockets initially. This means that sometimes have to use quite a bit if force.
Once I get the baby down I will quickly draw you an example lube station design you could make out of plastic and I will explain my thought process in more detail.
Post by: swornxin on Thu, 26 February 2015, 21:53:17
I was actually planning on using it as a switch opening station as well, only because I find it much easier to open when the switches are inside a plate. I'll be opening, swapping springs, lubing, and installing SIP sockets for my next build though. Maybe I'll want to splurge and get an aluminum version.I've kind of figured out a plate to use strictly as a lubing station. Do you think that I can get away with using a type of plastic as the plate material for that? The aluminum and stainless steel is just too expensive for me to justify it.The short answer is, it depends.
This program is really incredible, Swill. Thanks for taking the time to create and share it with us all!
If you are only just lubing, then probably. But once you get into building you will start to want to do more in depth mods.
For example. If you use sip sockets, then you will need to put the LEDs in before you solder. This makes the most sense to do in your lube station. Unfortunately, the LEDs don't always easily go into the sip sockets initially. This means that sometimes have to use quite a bit if force.
Once I get the baby down I will quickly draw you an example lube station design you could make out of plastic and I will explain my thought process in more detail.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 26 February 2015, 21:55:36
I was actually planning on using it as a switch opening station as well, only because I find it much easier to open when the switches are inside a plate. I'll be opening, swapping springs, lubing, and installing SIP sockets for my next build though. Maybe I'll want to splurge and get an aluminum version.I've kind of figured out a plate to use strictly as a lubing station. Do you think that I can get away with using a type of plastic as the plate material for that? The aluminum and stainless steel is just too expensive for me to justify it.The short answer is, it depends.
This program is really incredible, Swill. Thanks for taking the time to create and share it with us all!
If you are only just lubing, then probably. But once you get into building you will start to want to do more in depth mods.
For example. If you use sip sockets, then you will need to put the LEDs in before you solder. This makes the most sense to do in your lube station. Unfortunately, the LEDs don't always easily go into the sip sockets initially. This means that sometimes have to use quite a bit if force.
Once I get the baby down I will quickly draw you an example lube station design you could make out of plastic and I will explain my thought process in more detail.
They key (if your using big blue saw) is to try to find atleast 4 other people interested to really knock that price down.
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 22:34:04
I would do this switch layer in 0.063" (1.6mm) plastic using the standard Alps + MX switch cutout so I could open the switches in the lube station (this is a required feature of any lube station IMO).
It would look like this. I did a layout with 90 switches since I don't care about anything over a TKL in size:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_switch_layer.svg)
Now the main problem with this is that it will not be strong enough to support force if you have to insert LEDs into sip sockets and such. To add support I would add the following layer under it.
This would be a supporting layer using 0.25" (6.35mm) plastic with a square cutout which has been expanded to 16x16 so it does not interfere with the clipping into the plate layer.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_bottom_layer.svg)
In my drawings I have actually created the holes at 2.5mm with the intent to tap the holes and then just screw the two pieces together with M3 screws.
Looking at the materials that BBS offers, I think one of the following would be worth considering for this application.
- Acetal Plastic, Black (0.063" + 0.25")
- PETG Plastic, Clear (0.063" + 0.25")
I would have to check with BBS to see which they would recommend for this.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: swornxin on Thu, 26 February 2015, 22:57:23
So if I was going to build a lube station out of plastic, this is how I would do it.Makes perfect sense! I'm going to do a bit of research tomorrow at work, and hopefully I'll come back here to post about what I've decided to do! Appreciate the help!
I would do this switch layer in 0.063" (1.6mm) plastic using the standard Alps + MX switch cutout so I could open the switches in the lube station (this is a required feature of any lube station IMO).
It would look like this. I did a layout with 90 switches since I don't care about anything over a TKL in size:Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_switch_layer.svg)
Now the main problem with this is that it will not be strong enough to support force if you have to insert LEDs into sip sockets and such. To add support I would add the following layer under it.
This would be a supporting layer using 0.25" (6.35mm) plastic with a square cutout which has been expanded to 16x16 so it does not interfere with the clipping into the plate layer.Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_bottom_layer.svg)
In my drawings I have actually created the holes at 2.5mm with the intent to tap the holes and then just screw the two pieces together with M3 screws.
Looking at the materials that BBS offers, I think one of the following would be worth considering for this application.
- Acetal Plastic, Black (0.063" + 0.25")
- PETG Plastic, Clear (0.063" + 0.25")
I would have to check with BBS to see which they would recommend for this.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 23:01:38
No worries. It is still a lot of cutting, so it may not be cheap. It may actually be cheaper to get the top plate done in steel and doing just a simple .25" ring for the bottom in an inexpensive material. We will have to check with BBS.So if I was going to build a lube station out of plastic, this is how I would do it.Makes perfect sense! I'm going to do a bit of research tomorrow at work, and hopefully I'll come back here to post about what I've decided to do! Appreciate the help!
I would do this switch layer in 0.063" (1.6mm) plastic using the standard Alps + MX switch cutout so I could open the switches in the lube station (this is a required feature of any lube station IMO).
It would look like this. I did a layout with 90 switches since I don't care about anything over a TKL in size:Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_switch_layer.svg)
Now the main problem with this is that it will not be strong enough to support force if you have to insert LEDs into sip sockets and such. To add support I would add the following layer under it.
This would be a supporting layer using 0.25" (6.35mm) plastic with a square cutout which has been expanded to 16x16 so it does not interfere with the clipping into the plate layer.Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_bottom_layer.svg)
In my drawings I have actually created the holes at 2.5mm with the intent to tap the holes and then just screw the two pieces together with M3 screws.
Looking at the materials that BBS offers, I think one of the following would be worth considering for this application.
- Acetal Plastic, Black (0.063" + 0.25")
- PETG Plastic, Clear (0.063" + 0.25")
I would have to check with BBS to see which they would recommend for this.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: swornxin on Thu, 26 February 2015, 23:04:31
I could also just figure out how to make decent tools to open the switches, which would essentially solve the biggest of my problems. :))No worries. It is still a lot of cutting, so it may not be cheap. It may actually be cheaper to get the top plate done in steel and doing just a simple .25" ring for the bottom in an inexpensive material. We will have to check with BBS.So if I was going to build a lube station out of plastic, this is how I would do it.Makes perfect sense! I'm going to do a bit of research tomorrow at work, and hopefully I'll come back here to post about what I've decided to do! Appreciate the help!
I would do this switch layer in 0.063" (1.6mm) plastic using the standard Alps + MX switch cutout so I could open the switches in the lube station (this is a required feature of any lube station IMO).
It would look like this. I did a layout with 90 switches since I don't care about anything over a TKL in size:Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_switch_layer.svg)
Now the main problem with this is that it will not be strong enough to support force if you have to insert LEDs into sip sockets and such. To add support I would add the following layer under it.
This would be a supporting layer using 0.25" (6.35mm) plastic with a square cutout which has been expanded to 16x16 so it does not interfere with the clipping into the plate layer.Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_bottom_layer.svg)
In my drawings I have actually created the holes at 2.5mm with the intent to tap the holes and then just screw the two pieces together with M3 screws.
Looking at the materials that BBS offers, I think one of the following would be worth considering for this application.
- Acetal Plastic, Black (0.063" + 0.25")
- PETG Plastic, Clear (0.063" + 0.25")
I would have to check with BBS to see which they would recommend for this.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: swill on Thu, 26 February 2015, 23:07:31
Not really. It really helps to have a station. It is so much faster to do each step on 100 switches than it is to do the complete process on 100 switches sequentially. You put your tools down less and you can get into a rhythm if you are using a station. Trust me. This is mind numbing work, you will want every advantage you can get. :)I could also just figure out how to make decent tools to open the switches, which would essentially solve the biggest of my problems. :))No worries. It is still a lot of cutting, so it may not be cheap. It may actually be cheaper to get the top plate done in steel and doing just a simple .25" ring for the bottom in an inexpensive material. We will have to check with BBS.So if I was going to build a lube station out of plastic, this is how I would do it.Makes perfect sense! I'm going to do a bit of research tomorrow at work, and hopefully I'll come back here to post about what I've decided to do! Appreciate the help!
I would do this switch layer in 0.063" (1.6mm) plastic using the standard Alps + MX switch cutout so I could open the switches in the lube station (this is a required feature of any lube station IMO).
It would look like this. I did a layout with 90 switches since I don't care about anything over a TKL in size:Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_switch_layer.svg)
Now the main problem with this is that it will not be strong enough to support force if you have to insert LEDs into sip sockets and such. To add support I would add the following layer under it.
This would be a supporting layer using 0.25" (6.35mm) plastic with a square cutout which has been expanded to 16x16 so it does not interfere with the clipping into the plate layer.Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1392076/swillkb/lube_bottom_layer.svg)
In my drawings I have actually created the holes at 2.5mm with the intent to tap the holes and then just screw the two pieces together with M3 screws.
Looking at the materials that BBS offers, I think one of the following would be worth considering for this application.
- Acetal Plastic, Black (0.063" + 0.25")
- PETG Plastic, Clear (0.063" + 0.25")
I would have to check with BBS to see which they would recommend for this.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: phishy on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:28:17
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:50:39
Un-related but I don't want to make a thread for this and you guys have been so helpful. For my 66 key build is it worth it to spend the few extra bucks for teensy 3.1 over the teensy 2.0?
No. The only real advantage is extra pins afaik.
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 February 2015, 13:07:21
Un-related but I don't want to make a thread for this and you guys have been so helpful. For my 66 key build is it worth it to spend the few extra bucks for teensy 3.1 over the teensy 2.0?
No I don't think so. I think people prefer the Teensy2 whenever possible. I am not sure of all the details, but I think there is something to do with flashing and such. The Teensy2 is tried and true in this community. It is by far the most recommended controller, so I would probably stick with it.
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 27 February 2015, 13:13:43
Un-related but I don't want to make a thread for this and you guys have been so helpful. For my 66 key build is it worth it to spend the few extra bucks for teensy 3.1 over the teensy 2.0?
No I don't think so. I think people prefer the Teensy2 whenever possible. I am not sure of all the details, but I think there is something to do with flashing and such. The Teensy2 is tried and true in this community. It is by far the most recommended controller, so I would probably stick with it.
Firmware. With Teensy 2.0, you can use Soarer's, TMK, Easy AVR, etc... With Teensy 3.1, you can only use Kiibohd, AFAIK.
I find it much easier to open when the switches are inside a plate
??
I find it easiest to open the switches when loose. You just pop the 4 little tabs to open them.
Most switch lubing stations have oversized holes, so that the switches don't clip in at all. They just sit loosely in the hole.
Post by: swornxin on Fri, 27 February 2015, 13:38:40
I find it much easier to open when the switches are inside a plate
??
I find it easiest to open the switches when loose. You just pop the 4 little tabs to open them.
Most switch lubing stations have oversized holes, so that the switches don't clip in at all. They just sit loosely in the hole.
[/quote]
I see. I am completely new to most of this. The only modding I have done so far is to a Phantom that was already assembled. I swapped the springs out, and taking the switches apart on it was much easier than holding a switch in my hands.
Post by: phishy on Fri, 27 February 2015, 15:14:41
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 27 February 2015, 15:17:06
Awesome thanks guys. Just ordered up everything else I need to finish my board. Gotta go find a soldering iron and decide on how i want to finish this bare aluminum plate now.
Brushed with some scotch brite or sand paper gets my vote.
Post by: phishy on Fri, 27 February 2015, 15:25:51
Awesome thanks guys. Just ordered up everything else I need to finish my board. Gotta go find a soldering iron and decide on how i want to finish this bare aluminum plate now.
Brushed with some scotch brite or sand paper gets my vote.
If i go that route (i've considered it) I'm definitely going to have to seal it afterwards.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 27 February 2015, 16:06:32
Awesome thanks guys. Just ordered up everything else I need to finish my board. Gotta go find a soldering iron and decide on how i want to finish this bare aluminum plate now.
Brushed with some scotch brite or sand paper gets my vote.
If i go that route (i've considered it) I'm definitely going to have to seal it afterwards.
Shouldn't have to.
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 27 February 2015, 20:20:59
The custom plate I have with combo holes measures 15.6 x 12.0 mm for the Alps hole. So there must be a pretty wide tolerance for Alps switches!
A loose switch measured 12.68 x 15.35 mm at the mount point. But the holes in the custom plate don't attach all around the switch of course. Only on the corners.
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 February 2015, 20:29:17
So I took some measurements with my new calipers of Alps switch holes. The holes in the stock Alps plate I have measure on average 15.5 x 12.8 mm.Hmmm. OK, that's confusing. Not sure what to do with that now. If you squeeze the sides of the alps switch, can you stop the switch from returning once depressed?
The custom plate I have with combo holes measures 15.6 x 12.0 mm for the Alps hole. So there must be a pretty wide tolerance for Alps switches!
A loose switch measured 12.68 x 15.35 mm at the mount point. But the holes in the custom plate don't attach all around the switch of course. Only on the corners.
Post by: bueller on Sat, 28 February 2015, 04:39:16
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:25:22
Post by: bueller on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:38:09
What thickness Alu or CF is appropriate to get?
Most of the plates I've got have 1.5mm plate thickness.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:39:17
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Post by: bueller on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:40:29
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:41:06
What thickness Alu or CF is appropriate to get?
The ideal thickness would be 1.5 mm or .06"....but i can confirm that .063" aluminum works as it's at the larger end of plate mounted cherry switches tolerance and makes for a nice tight secure fit.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:43:47
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Post by: bueller on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:47:28
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Cool, cheers for the info! These will be used with a PCB so hopefully that should remove any play in the switches that are experienced when hand-wiring.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:53:57
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Cool, cheers for the info! These will be used with a PCB so hopefully that should remove any play in the switches that are experienced when hand-wiring.
Alright cool. Which layout did you end up deciding to go with for the numpad?
Post by: bueller on Sat, 28 February 2015, 07:56:45
Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Cool, cheers for the info! These will be used with a PCB so hopefully that should remove any play in the switches that are experienced when hand-wiring.
Alright cool. Which layout did you end up deciding to go with for the numpad?
Actually got an interest check (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69359) going if you want to check out the finer details :)
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 28 February 2015, 10:14:28
Post by: swill on Sat, 28 February 2015, 10:30:04
The second one also let's you open the switches and is cheaper to produce. If you are hand wiring then you can get the first cutout and just unclip the switches if you want to open them.Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
Post by: swill on Sat, 28 February 2015, 10:32:01
BBS is working on solving the rounded corners of those nubs, so that should be a solved problem.Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Post by: swill on Sat, 28 February 2015, 10:33:31
I would use the second one then. It will be cheaper to produce.Going to do a quote for a small GHPad 5x4 plate GB - should I be using standard waterjet machining or the low-taper option?
Low-taper is for thicker materials...dont need to use it for a plate. Also, which cut-out style are you using? If you're planning on just using cherry switches I suggest the first cutout style.
Ideally I really want to use the 3rd one so people can open up the switches after soldering.
That one might actually work well. I know the second one isn't the best option because those little corners become rounded due to kerf and the switch has a little side to side movement, but it looks like the third cutout as long as the middle of the sides comes out perfect even if the corners for the indents are a bit rounded it will hold the switch perfectly.
Cool, cheers for the info! These will be used with a PCB so hopefully that should remove any play in the switches that are experienced when hand-wiring.
Post by: Dihedral on Sat, 28 February 2015, 11:14:46
Post by: swill on Sat, 28 February 2015, 12:18:50
Sorry to bother you swill, but has the cutout been updated yet?I have not changed the drawing yet. I am confused how to change it based on JDs measurements.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 28 February 2015, 12:58:33
Sorry to bother you swill, but has the cutout been updated yet?I have not changed the drawing yet. I am confused how to change it based on JDs measurements.
I tried several different Alps switches, an XM clone, an unnamed clone, and a Matias, in both of the cutouts that I measured. I had no fitment issues with either of them. I am not sure why the holes cut with your drawing did not work...they should work fine.
Post by: Dihedral on Sun, 01 March 2015, 03:37:05
Sorry to bother you swill, but has the cutout been updated yet?I have not changed the drawing yet. I am confused how to change it based on JDs measurements.
I tried several different Alps switches, an XM clone, an unnamed clone, and a Matias, in both of the cutouts that I measured. I had no fitment issues with either of them. I am not sure why the holes cut with your drawing did not work...they should work fine.
Blame it on the 3D printing?
Post by: swill on Sun, 01 March 2015, 12:47:07
BBS had the same problem though which is why I am confused. He ordered alps switches from MK to validate their fit.Sorry to bother you swill, but has the cutout been updated yet?I have not changed the drawing yet. I am confused how to change it based on JDs measurements.
I tried several different Alps switches, an XM clone, an unnamed clone, and a Matias, in both of the cutouts that I measured. I had no fitment issues with either of them. I am not sure why the holes cut with your drawing did not work...they should work fine.
Blame it on the 3D printing?
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Tue, 03 March 2015, 01:23:51
They came back with a preliminary guesstimate of some hundreds of CAD for 10 plates...
Sure it's almost a decent deal per plate at such a small volume, but it's 9 too many that I can't afford.
They are expecting the same numbers even if I went for a plastic plate, and they haven't even gotten a quote for other layers. T_T
This going way beyond wallet hack at the speed of light for me...
I can't even start a IC/GB with my post count lol
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
Post by: neverused on Tue, 03 March 2015, 01:31:38
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Wed, 04 March 2015, 04:18:11
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 04 March 2015, 07:50:42
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 04 March 2015, 07:55:16
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 March 2015, 07:57:57
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 March 2015, 07:59:07
Just wanted to share that I recently used the tool to create a plate for an upcoming super secret project. It worked great and I was able to download as a .dfx and convert it to an auto desk inventor sketch which I could use to modify the borders. If anyone is trying to get this to work with inventor let me know and I would be happy to help!
Awesome. Glad it worked well. Thanks for letting us know that it worked with auto desk inventor. :)
Post by: cmadrid on Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:13:10
Post by: swill on Thu, 05 March 2015, 10:24:52
We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 05 March 2015, 10:51:20
We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 05 March 2015, 11:10:23
We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
I'm actually cleaning up all those stickies. But you made the list!
Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 05 March 2015, 11:20:21
We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
I'm actually cleaning up all those stickies. But you made the list!
Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Cool List - will be very useful to many in the future I'm sure.
Post by: swill on Thu, 05 March 2015, 11:23:20
Nice work dude. :)We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
I'm actually cleaning up all those stickies. But you made the list!
Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 05 March 2015, 11:24:26
Post by: swill on Thu, 05 March 2015, 13:25:06
Now it's been added to that list, it might be a good idea to clean up the OP :)Yes. I will work on that tonight.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 05 March 2015, 13:26:36
Nice work dude. :)We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
I'm actually cleaning up all those stickies. But you made the list!
Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Thanks! I'm trying to reorganize some things where it makes sense.
Post by: phishy on Thu, 05 March 2015, 13:36:43
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 05 March 2015, 13:55:44
I'm gonna try to do a full write-up on hand wiring a matrix since I've had so much trouble finding one.
Hard-Wiring_How-To (http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Hard-Wiring_How-To)
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brownfox-step-by-step-t6050.html
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68818.msg1668916#msg1668916
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20898.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40567.0
/me tries to be a good librarian. Go ahead, ask me a question!
Post by: phishy on Thu, 05 March 2015, 15:47:58
I'm gonna try to do a full write-up on hand wiring a matrix since I've had so much trouble finding one.
Hard-Wiring_How-To (http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Hard-Wiring_How-To)
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brownfox-step-by-step-t6050.html
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68818.msg1668916#msg1668916
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20898.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40567.0
/me tries to be a good librarian. Go ahead, ask me a question!
Haha thanks I wish I would have been able to find these before. A simple google search only brings up really basic how tos with really no solid info.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 05 March 2015, 15:51:56
Haha thanks I wish I would have been able to find these before. A simple google search only brings up really basic how tos with really no solid info.
Now with their own section in my stickied Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Post by: cmadrid on Thu, 05 March 2015, 22:43:49
We should sticky this :o
Not actually a bad idea. I don't have the ability to do that though...
PM a mod?
I'm actually cleaning up all those stickies. But you made the list!
Super Awesome Tools and Resources Made By Users! (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69582.0)
Awesome, sticky index! Even better than individual posts.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Fri, 06 March 2015, 00:55:10
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.
What price point are you trying to hit?
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Post by: phishy on Fri, 06 March 2015, 06:28:15
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.What price point are you trying to hit?
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Are you in the states? Are you just cutting a 60% plate? Even for a 1 off it should only be around 90 bucks plus shipping.
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 12:23:36
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:44:45
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Just more evidance that cutout 4 is terrible
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
(Attachment Link)
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:51:14
Ya. I removed it from the ui a while ago because of that. :)Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Just more evidance that cutout 4 is terrible
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
(Attachment Link)
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:53:33
Ya. I removed it from the ui a while ago because of that. :)Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Just more evidance that cutout 4 is terrible
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
(Attachment Link)
It was just a design I played with when the GH60 Rev.A proto was made with those 90-degree rotated switches. I made some test plates, did some fit testing, and promptly recommended that no one use that design, ever. :D
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:55:20
Haha. Ya. I have added the ability for the switch openings to be rotated, so its really not needed.Ya. I removed it from the ui a while ago because of that. :)Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Just more evidance that cutout 4 is terrible
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
(Attachment Link)
It was just a design I played with when the GH60 Rev.A proto was made with those 90-degree rotated switches. I made some test plates, did some fit testing, and promptly recommended that no one use that design, ever. :D
Post by: tankfulloffoxes on Fri, 06 March 2015, 17:32:52
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
Post by: p3lim on Fri, 06 March 2015, 18:51:14
Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
Last time it was an error on the server, too many instances or something, probably still an issue.
Post by: derezzed on Fri, 06 March 2015, 19:43:01
Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
Post by: tankfulloffoxes on Fri, 06 March 2015, 19:52:22
Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
Tried that, making a plate with no housing, nothing special, all default and still got the error. I don't know what is wrong, is anyone else having any problems just trying to make simple plates?
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:24:43
Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?I will check it tonight. Yes. To many instances running is likely the cause. I will implement a cleanup job to clean up instances that are older than 2 hours to resolve this for good.
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
Thanks for matting me know.
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:26:58
What would you expect if you have a sandwich case with no bezel and screw holes specified?Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
You can use None for the case and still specify some padding if you want and then add the holes you want after. Will that solve your current problem?
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:28:00
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
Tried that, making a plate with no housing, nothing special, all default and still got the error. I don't know what is wrong, is anyone else having any problems just trying to make simple plates?
Post by: derezzed on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:44:23
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)
[attach=1]
Post by: tankfulloffoxes on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:45:38
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
Tried that, making a plate with no housing, nothing special, all default and still got the error. I don't know what is wrong, is anyone else having any problems just trying to make simple plates?
Ha no hurry here. It's more important for you to keep that baby happy than us :D
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 21:17:26
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)
(Attachment Link)
Haha. This gave me a little chuckle. :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 06 March 2015, 21:21:07
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)
Ha no hurry here. It's more important for you to keep that baby happy than us :D
Alright, it should be fixed for now. I will implement the cleanup this weekend so this does not happen again. Thanks again for letting me know...
Post by: phishy on Fri, 06 March 2015, 21:44:57
Everyone will get errors till I fix it. I will fix it in a couple hours when I am out from under a baby. :)Hey swill, I noticed a few pages back somebody was having an issue with the error message "The build process has encountered the following error. Internal Server Error". I saw that you were also able to fix the problem. However, I'm still getting that same error message with any layouts I try to generate a plate for. I'm trying to do a custom plate, but I also tried using a tkl preset from keyboardlayouteditor, and it still isn't working. I'm currently on a public computer since mine at home doesn't have internet, but I tried tethering with my phone as well, and it still wasn't working for me. Here is the raw data for the custom layout. Maybe it has something to do with the design?
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"","","","","","","","","","",{w2:1.25},""],
[{x:0.5,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:2.25},"",{x:1.25,w2:1.25},"",{x:0.25},"",{w2:1.25},""]
I get that error when I try to make a case with screw holes and zero bezel or when the size of the screw holes exceeds the size of the bezel. I was hoping to make a case with no bezel or possibly a plate that will fit a universal 60% case but I will have to figure out how and where to add the screw holes in LibreCAD after swill's plate builder generates the dxf.
Tried that, making a plate with no housing, nothing special, all default and still got the error. I don't know what is wrong, is anyone else having any problems just trying to make simple plates?
Nothing like waiting for babies bed-time.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sat, 07 March 2015, 04:40:01
Are you in the states? Are you just cutting a 60% plate? Even for a 1 off it should only be around 90 bucks plus shipping.I'm in Canada, and I'm trying to make a full 108 case. I'm trying to keep the extra cost like shipping, import tax, conversion, etc to a minimal.
If things go well with my local shop, although it probably won't, I could at least skip out on shipping lol.
Thanks.Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Here is a basic idea of how the different switch shapes compare with each other in terms of cost to produce. The numbers are only relational to each other, they do not reflect actual pricing of any kind...
(Attachment Link)
Maybe I'll ask them to get another quote for cutout 1 after they give me an actual number for cutout 2 just to see how much of a difference it makes.
This is a handy reference, maybe you should add it to the help box for the switch type.
Post by: jarz on Sat, 07 March 2015, 09:07:52
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.What price point are you trying to hit?
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Are you in the states? Are you just cutting a 60% plate? Even for a 1 off it should only be around 90 bucks plus shipping.
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
Post by: phishy on Sat, 07 March 2015, 10:19:26
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.What price point are you trying to hit?
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Are you in the states? Are you just cutting a 60% plate? Even for a 1 off it should only be around 90 bucks plus shipping.
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
Basically with BBS they have a baseline price of like 90 bucks for a 1 off. I've loaded multiple designs and 1 offs all cost the same initial price. To get the cost down you have to order more than 1 to offset the setup costs.
Post by: jarz on Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:11:43
My project is getting buzzkilled left and right.
With the current state of Gon, I'm not sure I should space my plate for his PCB.
Anybody got some magic or wisdom for me? I feel like this is gonna end up dead in the water.
I'd start a separate thread from swill's to ask these questions in. Also, come to accept that this may not be a cheap solution or hobby.
Well, I was really just hoping there would be some advice on how to cut corners on the plate and make it cheaper, and some persuasion tactics to make shops willing to make smaller volumes.
The rest was just me venting 'cause a lot happened in one day. Didn't expect to get help on everything here or I would have listed everything, and don't really think any of that is worth a thread anyway.
I do understand this is expensive, but I would think it's normal when somebody doesn't want to buy ten sets of something only to use one...
For some prototypes I was planning to do some stuff with a coping saw. Once you get fancy machines involved the price is bound to go up. Check with BBS directly. They may be able to point you towards a material and process that can bring down costs for prototyping.What price point are you trying to hit?
Initially I was expecting 100ish for the plate. The shop even made a random ballpark of $50, which i doubted. At this point, it may hold true per piece lol. At the moment, I'm still waiting for the final quote.
I'll see how things turn out before I consider more manufacturing options. Maybe I should just become a vendor to sell my surplus lol.
Meanwhile I've been considering downgrading my plate to cutout 1. The good old squares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount of cuts are halved?
Are you in the states? Are you just cutting a 60% plate? Even for a 1 off it should only be around 90 bucks plus shipping.
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
Basically with BBS they have a baseline price of like 90 bucks for a 1 off. I've loaded multiple designs and 1 offs all cost the same initial price. To get the cost down you have to order more than 1 to offset the setup costs.
Yeah, the price drops significantly when you order more than 4 batches. Which if you are just talking about the switch plate can come down to almost ~$25 per switch plate of aluminum. Assuming ~$100 per batch discounted (4 60% plates with square holes in each batch).
It's definitely a lot cheaper if you can find 10-20 others who want to go in on it together. I am new to this forum, are there many group buys for plates?
Post by: jarz on Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:29:35
Now I just need to decide on the thickness of my sandwiched layers...
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:47:22
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sun, 08 March 2015, 04:43:35
Do you mean having two sheets of metal on top of each other being cut at the same time?
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
or are you talking about lining the drawings up side by side closely, so more parts can be cut out of the same sheet?
Post by: jarz on Wed, 11 March 2015, 11:58:49
Do you mean having two sheets of metal on top of each other being cut at the same time?
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
or are you talking about lining the drawings up side by side closely, so more parts can be cut out of the same sheet?
Yes, sorry the latter. Which is to say place the switch plate and the back plate in the same CAD file as close to each other as possible. It requires you to cut and paste from the two different CAD diagrams swill's nifty app generates. The price I stated above had 4 plates lined up vertically.
Post by: cmadrid on Wed, 11 March 2015, 12:17:26
Do you mean having two sheets of metal on top of each other being cut at the same time?
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
or are you talking about lining the drawings up side by side closely, so more parts can be cut out of the same sheet?
Yes, sorry the latter. Which is to say place the switch plate and the back plate in the same CAD file as close to each other as possible. It requires you to cut and paste from the two different CAD diagrams swill's nifty app generates. The price I stated above had 4 plates lined up vertically.
Brilliant! I wonder how much you could get a sandwich case + plate group buy going for with that method.
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 11 March 2015, 19:41:29
Do you mean having two sheets of metal on top of each other being cut at the same time?
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
or are you talking about lining the drawings up side by side closely, so more parts can be cut out of the same sheet?
Yes, sorry the latter. Which is to say place the switch plate and the back plate in the same CAD file as close to each other as possible. It requires you to cut and paste from the two different CAD diagrams swill's nifty app generates. The price I stated above had 4 plates lined up vertically.
Brilliant! I wonder how much you could get a sandwich case + plate group buy going for with that method.
F***ing brilliant! Is 1.5 mm thick enough for a bottom plate? Maybe it's best to double up the same layers and get 2 switch plates at 1.5 mm and 2 bottom plates at 3 or 4 mm. What are ideal thicknesses for switch plates and bottom plates?
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 March 2015, 21:01:34
You need the switch plate to be 1.5-1.6mm thick if you want the switches to clip in.Do you mean having two sheets of metal on top of each other being cut at the same time?
If you stack your plates close enough together in CAD you can essentially get two switch plates and two back plates for the same price or within a couple dollars of each other (~$95 US). At least with blue saw it seems like you can. Make sure you use as much of the base material as you can.
or are you talking about lining the drawings up side by side closely, so more parts can be cut out of the same sheet?
Yes, sorry the latter. Which is to say place the switch plate and the back plate in the same CAD file as close to each other as possible. It requires you to cut and paste from the two different CAD diagrams swill's nifty app generates. The price I stated above had 4 plates lined up vertically.
Brilliant! I wonder how much you could get a sandwich case + plate group buy going for with that method.
F***ing brilliant! Is 1.5 mm thick enough for a bottom plate? Maybe it's best to double up the same layers and get 2 switch plates at 1.5 mm and 2 bottom plates at 3 or 4 mm. What are ideal thicknesses for switch plates and bottom plates?
The case I am having cut right now has 1.5mm top and 3mm bottom. I got all my holes cut small and I will thread (tap) them to the correct size. I will be bolting all of my layers together without nuts on the bottom.
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 11 March 2015, 21:08:02
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 March 2015, 21:53:21
I'm experimenting with different combinations of multi-plate layouts. So far, the most cost-effective layout I've found is 2 plates. I'm currently trying 3 plates stacked vertically with 1 plate rotated 90 degrees next to the 3 plates. In LibreCAD, the plates do not appear to overlap. When I upload to Big Blue Saw, the 90 degree rotated plate is not rotated and overlaps two of the other plates. Does anyone have any suggestions?
post pictures, i can't visualize what you are saying. :)
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 11 March 2015, 22:00:46
I'm experimenting with different combinations of multi-plate layouts. So far, the most cost-effective layout I've found is 2 plates. I'm currently trying 3 plates stacked vertically with 1 plate rotated 90 degrees next to the 3 plates. In LibreCAD, the plates do not appear to overlap. When I upload to Big Blue Saw, the 90 degree rotated plate is not rotated and overlaps two of the other plates. Does anyone have any suggestions?
post pictures, i can't visualize what you are saying. :)
What I see in LibreCAD:
[attach=1]
What BBS sees:
[attach=2]
What I see in LibreCAD:
[attach=3]
What BBS sees:
[attach=4]
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Wed, 11 March 2015, 22:13:29
I assume the cutters know to arrange everything on the same sheet of material since all the drawings were submitted together.
It seems I was able to get quoted for one offs lol
108 cutout 2 costar only top plate is $159.86 CAD.
both the open and closed layers are $96.09 each
the bottom layer is $95.62.
I hope not making the other layers doesn't affect the top plate's price too much...
The top plate is noted that "part may not be perfectly flat". Is this warping normal?
Meanwhile, gonna wait for plastic quote. Maybe the shop forgot to submit it...
Also gonna revise my design for a teensy++2.0. Gonna give up my idea of using Gon's pcb. With the state he and his board is in, I don't want to think about it anymore.
Just want to know, how much thickness do I need to fit a teensy? Not even sure how to orient it for the usb.
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 11 March 2015, 22:34:41
I just got my quote for all the parts in 18ga stainless steel. Not that I even asked for all the layers in steel.
I assume the cutters know to arrange everything on the same sheet of material since all the drawings were submitted together.
It seems I was able to get quoted for one offs lol
108 cutout 2 costar only top plate is $159.86 CAD.
both the open and closed layers are $96.09 each
the bottom layer is $95.62.
I hope not making the other layers doesn't affect the top plate's price too much...
The top plate is noted that "part may not be perfectly flat". Is this warping normal?
Meanwhile, gonna wait for plastic quote. Maybe the shop forgot to submit it...
Also gonna revise my design for a teensy++2.0. Gonna give up my idea of using Gon's pcb. With the state he and his board is in, I don't want to think about it anymore.
Just want to know, how much thickness do I need to fit a teensy? Not even sure how to orient it for the usb.
I wondered about that too. Am I SOL if the plates get bent during shipping? How well does BBS package their products and has anyone ever received a bent plate from BBS? Also wondering about ideal thickness for a case. What about a case that is hand-wired? And regarding switch cutouts -- I've seen someone suggest gluing switches to the switch plate for hand-wired boards to keep the switches from getting pulled out of the plate when keycaps are removed. Is this necessary? If I use the recommended switch cutout that allows switches to be opened, will putting a dab of epoxy on the top or bottom of the switch (on the underside of the plate) prevent me from opening the switch when it's in the plate?
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 March 2015, 23:20:49
I'm experimenting with different combinations of multi-plate layouts. So far, the most cost-effective layout I've found is 2 plates. I'm currently trying 3 plates stacked vertically with 1 plate rotated 90 degrees next to the 3 plates. In LibreCAD, the plates do not appear to overlap. When I upload to Big Blue Saw, the 90 degree rotated plate is not rotated and overlaps two of the other plates. Does anyone have any suggestions?
post pictures, i can't visualize what you are saying. :)
What I see in LibreCAD:
(Attachment Link)
What BBS sees:
(Attachment Link)
What I see in LibreCAD:
(Attachment Link)
What BBS sees:
(Attachment Link)
Not sure. How are you rotating and flipping the parts? Apparently the way you are doing it is getting undone when you submit it.
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 11 March 2015, 23:40:54
I'm experimenting with different combinations of multi-plate layouts. So far, the most cost-effective layout I've found is 2 plates. I'm currently trying 3 plates stacked vertically with 1 plate rotated 90 degrees next to the 3 plates. In LibreCAD, the plates do not appear to overlap. When I upload to Big Blue Saw, the 90 degree rotated plate is not rotated and overlaps two of the other plates. Does anyone have any suggestions?
post pictures, i can't visualize what you are saying. :)
What I see in LibreCAD:
(Attachment Link)
What BBS sees:
(Attachment Link)
What I see in LibreCAD:
(Attachment Link)
What BBS sees:
(Attachment Link)
Not sure. How are you rotating and flipping the parts? Apparently the way you are doing it is getting undone when you submit it.
click shape to select it > Modify > Rotate > Continue button > set red marker > click mouse > set angle of rotation in dialog box and click OK.
click shape to select it > Modify > Move/Copy > set red marker > move shape to desired location and click mouse.
Save as dxf 2007.
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 12 March 2015, 20:11:31
Big Blue Saw's quoted prices (generated 3/12/2015) for custom 60% keyboard plates, cut with standard water jet and raw finish:
1 1.5 mm stainless T-304 switch plates for $92.10 = $92.10 per unit
1 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $92.80 = $92.80 per unit
total = $184.90
2 1.5 mm stainless T-304 switch plates for $122.70 = $61.35 per unit
2 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $102.30 = $51.15 per unit
total = $225
3 1.5 mm stainless T-304 switch plates for $164.30 = $54.77 per unit
3 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $111.90 = $37.30 per unit
total = $276.20
4 1.5 mm stainless T-304 switch plates for $205.90 = $51.48 per unit
4 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $121.40 = $30.35 per unit
total = $327.30
6 1.5 mm stainless T-304 switch plates for $289.20 = $48.21 per unit
6 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $140.40 = $23.40 per unit
total = $429.60
8 3 mm stainless T-304 bottom plates for $168.80 = $21.10 per unit
A file with 8 switch plates was 1.3MB, which is too large for BBS's website to handle.
Prices listed are per set. That means if you order 5 sets of plates, you get to the next price tier and the price drops even further -- $43.63 per unit for 20 switch plates versus $51.48 per unit for 4 switch plates, and $42.97 per unit for 30 switch plates versus $48.21 per unit for 6 switch plates.
You can see diminishing returns quickly set in for my experiment but it is still obvious that, if you can find 1 or more other people to buy plates, the price quickly approaches impulse buy territory.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 13 March 2015, 12:40:42
I don't know how Big Blue Saw's application is rotating my plates.
E-mail me the files so I can figure out what's going on.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 13 March 2015, 12:47:41
https://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/nesting-files-for-optimum-pricing-with-big-blue-saw.html
And here's the other secret for getting good prices, which I think you've already discovered:
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/saw/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/the-best-tip-for-saving-money-with-big-blue-saw.html
Post by: evangs on Fri, 13 March 2015, 14:44:45
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 13 March 2015, 14:59:18
info@bigbluesaw.com
Post by: evangs on Fri, 13 March 2015, 15:02:37
The site looks OK at the moment. E-mail me the file and I'll take a look
info@bigbluesaw.com
ahh I was referencing Swill's Plate building tool http://builder.swillkb.com/
Post by: swill on Fri, 13 March 2015, 16:42:35
The site looks OK at the moment. E-mail me the file and I'll take a look
info@bigbluesaw.com
ahh I was referencing Swill's Plate building tool http://builder.swillkb.com/
Sorry, fixed...
Post by: evangs on Fri, 13 March 2015, 16:49:20
The site looks OK at the moment. E-mail me the file and I'll take a look
info@bigbluesaw.com
ahh I was referencing Swill's Plate building tool http://builder.swillkb.com/
Sorry, fixed...
thanks! love the tool btw.
Post by: swill on Fri, 13 March 2015, 17:01:36
Post by: evangs on Fri, 13 March 2015, 17:04:57
I have been a bit MIA on my tool recently. I just implemented the 'cleanup' operation that should actually get rid of all of the 'internal server errors' (well unless its is a real problem). Let me know if you have any issues at all in the next little while. This fix is a little hard to test without it actually having to do some of the cleanup, so even though its a bit out of character, I have launched something that is not fully tested. :P
I just ran it like 6 times, good so far. will let you know if I see anything weird
Post by: swill on Fri, 13 March 2015, 17:13:21
I have been a bit MIA on my tool recently. I just implemented the 'cleanup' operation that should actually get rid of all of the 'internal server errors' (well unless its is a real problem). Let me know if you have any issues at all in the next little while. This fix is a little hard to test without it actually having to do some of the cleanup, so even though its a bit out of character, I have launched something that is not fully tested. :P
I just ran it like 6 times, good so far. will let you know if I see anything weird
If there is an error it won't be for a while. The error would be part of the cleanup code. I have used the cleanup code already, so I just tweaked it, so it should be fine...
Post by: swill on Fri, 13 March 2015, 17:41:53
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Post by: SaiZn on Fri, 13 March 2015, 21:10:36
[attach=1]
I tried placing a switch in it and it fits perfectly. :thumb:
Now I need to replace the existing plate with it and find a straight 6.25u wire for the stabilizer. I will probably make a sandwich case for this to match the Z-pad that Kaliet is making for me.
Post by: swill on Fri, 13 March 2015, 21:18:21
I got a plate made for my FC660M with proper spacebar stabilizer spacing using this and ordered it from BBS. I just received it and I chose the raw finish so I still need to sand it.Cool. Thanks for sharing. That looks great.
(Attachment Link)
I tried placing a switch in it and it fits perfectly. :thumb:
Now I need to replace the existing plate with it and find a straight 6.25u wire for the stabilizer. I will probably make a sandwich case for this to match the Z-pad that Kaliet is making for me.
Post by: swill on Sat, 14 March 2015, 16:08:35
The dimensions and hole layout is largely taken from the GH60 drawings. I made a couple small adjustments based on some measurements of a Hammer case and using a caliper on a Vortex cast aluminum case.
Without further ado, some screenshots...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: phishy on Sat, 14 March 2015, 21:07:28
Post by: p3lim on Sat, 14 March 2015, 21:11:19
Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
Post by: swill on Sat, 14 March 2015, 21:30:38
I was thinking of making the hole resizeable, but I was not confident enough in the hole locations to let people get too tight a tolerance yet. I have implemented it in a way that I can almost flip a switch and have the holes resizeable though.Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
Once I get more of a consensus on the hole locations, I will make it possible to modify the hole sizes.
Post by: swill on Sat, 14 March 2015, 22:19:16
Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
I just checked now close that drawing was to mine. It is pretty close. My centers are basically within .4mm everywhere. There is one measurement that is .6mm different and a lot that are exactly the same. With this info I will revisit my poker case with a caliper and see if I can tighten up the tolerances a little bit more no my drawing. It will work perfectly fine as it is right now, but I will tighten it up a bit before I make the holes resizeable.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 14 March 2015, 22:27:56
Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
I just checked now close that drawing was to mine. It is pretty close. My centers are basically within .4mm everywhere. There is one measurement that is .6mm different and a lot that are exactly the same. With this info I will revisit my poker case with a caliper and see if I can tighten up the tolerances a little bit more no my drawing. It will work perfectly fine as it is right now, but I will tighten it up a bit before I make the holes resizeable.
I have a more recent plate drawing with those dimensions even more nailed down, I think. I was bored one day at work. :)
Anyway, that drawing is on my drive at work, but I'll get you those dimensions on Monday, and you can check them with your cases.
Post by: swill on Sat, 14 March 2015, 23:17:40
Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
I just checked now close that drawing was to mine. It is pretty close. My centers are basically within .4mm everywhere. There is one measurement that is .6mm different and a lot that are exactly the same. With this info I will revisit my poker case with a caliper and see if I can tighten up the tolerances a little bit more no my drawing. It will work perfectly fine as it is right now, but I will tighten it up a bit before I make the holes resizeable.
I have a more recent plate drawing with those dimensions even more nailed down, I think. I was bored one day at work. :)
Anyway, that drawing is on my drive at work, but I'll get you those dimensions on Monday, and you can check them with your cases.
Awesome, thanks dude. :) I think this, with dynamic hole sizes, is going to be pretty helpful for people. I think a lot of people are trying to do something cool with the 60 layout. Having Poker compatible plates will really reduce the cost of prototyping if you already have a poker case.
Post by: kakakowie on Sun, 15 March 2015, 00:03:06
Any idea how I can solve this?
Post by: derezzed on Sun, 15 March 2015, 01:45:36
I was thinking of making the hole resizeable, but I was not confident enough in the hole locations to let people get too tight a tolerance yet. I have implemented it in a way that I can almost flip a switch and have the holes resizeable though.Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
Once I get more of a consensus on the hole locations, I will make it possible to modify the hole sizes.
This would be awesome. My plan was to design the plate without screw holes, then put machinist's dye on the mounts in a poker case and drop the plate into the case to mark where the screw holes should be drilled. It's going to be handwired, so using the poker case layout wouldn't work for me without modifying the file. I'm trying to modify the plate in LibreCAD but I haven't been successful yet. If your tool can put screw holes small enough that a PCB is not required into the positions for a universal 60% case, building a case would be as easy as buying a case, a plate, some standoffs, and screws.
Post by: leandre.north on Sun, 15 March 2015, 05:14:36
Post by: joey on Sun, 15 March 2015, 05:50:17
What thickness of material should you use, so that the plate would sit flush with the top of the case?
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 08:23:20
I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 08:25:34
Hey! I tried it and got really weird "high top" for ISO 60%. I know the plate shouldn't be that high and I wanted to ask you how I can get a ISO 60 % mount plate that will fit in TEX, poker case.Did you forget to remove the {y:1.5} at the start of the first line?
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 08:27:04
Yes. I will be adding this for you tomorrow.I was thinking of making the hole resizeable, but I was not confident enough in the hole locations to let people get too tight a tolerance yet. I have implemented it in a way that I can almost flip a switch and have the holes resizeable though.Starting to work on the 60% poker case since that one probably has the most demand.
I am taking the measurements from here as my source of truth for now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg954124#msg954124
If you know of a better resource, please let me know. I will go with this for now.
Here is the plate jdcarpe made me for my keyboard, it features mounting points for the poker II case with a hole diameter that doesn't require you to have a PCB, only 10mm M2 standoffs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6676pdEI0GUbTk4dzlveEMzMzg/view?usp=sharing
Once I get more of a consensus on the hole locations, I will make it possible to modify the hole sizes.
This would be awesome. My plan was to design the plate without screw holes, then put machinist's dye on the mounts in a poker case and drop the plate into the case to mark where the screw holes should be drilled. It's going to be handwired, so using the poker case layout wouldn't work for me without modifying the file. I'm trying to modify the plate in LibreCAD but I haven't been successful yet. If your tool can put screw holes small enough that a PCB is not required into the positions for a universal 60% case, building a case would be as easy as buying a case, a plate, some standoffs, and screws.
Post by: kakakowie on Sun, 15 March 2015, 08:57:40
I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
I tried a 60% layout and got the same error. The only layout that seemed to work was the GHpad.
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 09:03:27
I won't be able to check for a few hours. I have the baby this morning.I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
I tried a 60% layout and got the same error. The only layout that seemed to work was the GHpad.
Post by: kakakowie on Sun, 15 March 2015, 09:05:24
I won't be able to check for a few hours. I have the baby this morning.I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
I tried a 60% layout and got the same error. The only layout that seemed to work was the GHpad.
Oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to rush you :x
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 09:42:47
No worries. I need to look into what's going on. :)I won't be able to check for a few hours. I have the baby this morning.I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
I tried a 60% layout and got the same error. The only layout that seemed to work was the GHpad.
Oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to rush you :x
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 13:19:45
I keep getting internal server errors. I hope this is not a problem with my layout?I will check when I have a minute. My cleanup code could be erroring.
Any idea how I can solve this?
I tried a 60% layout and got the same error. The only layout that seemed to work was the GHpad.
Can you send me the raw data you were trying to use? I am not getting errors right now but I do see errors in the logs, but I am now cleaning up the machines if they don't shut down properly, so I can't ssh into my worker machines to see the errors. I need to find a way to scp the logs of errored machines to the master so I can review them.
If you can reproduce the error I will track down the issue. Thx. :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 14:10:49
Post by: kakakowie on Sun, 15 March 2015, 19:57:38
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Sun, 15 March 2015, 20:50:30
Thanks swill. I'm not sure if you added ergodox compatibility but i tried it out heh.Nope. I don't have support for rotated groups of keys yet. Only the ability to rotate a key around its center for now.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 16 March 2015, 21:42:44
I'm experimenting with different combinations of multi-plate layouts. So far, the most cost-effective layout I've found is 2 plates. I'm currently trying 3 plates stacked vertically with 1 plate rotated 90 degrees next to the 3 plates. In LibreCAD, the plates do not appear to overlap. When I upload to Big Blue Saw, the 90 degree rotated plate is not rotated and overlaps two of the other plates. Does anyone have any suggestions?
This is fixed now.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Tue, 17 March 2015, 10:50:01
Nope. I don't have support for rotated groups of keys yet. Only the ability to rotate a key around its center for now.
There are an infinite number of features you could potentially add, but then you end up with a CAD tool. It seems to me if you want a rotated group, open up the DXF file in DraftSight or a similar package, and rotate them.
Post by: Latin00032 on Tue, 17 March 2015, 10:55:23
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 March 2015, 11:21:48
Darn! I suck at this.
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
This is likely because you still have the {y:1.5} set on your first row because you most likely took the 104 layout and removed the keys, but did not reset the size of the plate.
For example, your plate probably looks like this in the keyboard-layout-editor:
[attachimg=1]
(notice the space at the top)
This is because of this in the layout editor:
[attachimg=2]
You need to remove that {y:1.5} to get rid of the extra space, like this:
[attachimg=3]
Which will result in the following:
[attachimg=4]
That will be working... Does that make sense? That solve your problem?
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 17 March 2015, 11:24:48
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 17 March 2015, 11:31:32
swill, just an idea for you, but maybe you want to make a standard ANSI 125 plate with Poker case holes and 2.5mm radius corners as a standard option, which people could simply download, instead of having your tool draw the same plate over and over again.
The server already stores plates that have already been built, but I guess some presets would be useful.
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 March 2015, 11:41:40
swill, just an idea for you, but maybe you want to make a standard ANSI 125 plate with Poker case holes and 2.5mm radius corners as a standard option, which people could simply download, instead of having your tool draw the same plate over and over again.
Yes, I am planning to add the concept of 'presets' and people can just build them. Right now, if a specific config has been drawn before it will be loaded out of the cache, so it won't redraw it. That is a good idea though to setup a bunch of presets...
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 March 2015, 11:43:54
Nope. I don't have support for rotated groups of keys yet. Only the ability to rotate a key around its center for now.
There are an infinite number of features you could potentially add, but then you end up with a CAD tool. It seems to me if you want a rotated group, open up the DXF file in DraftSight or a similar package, and rotate them.
The reason people are asking for it is because there is an ergonomic layout which is pretty common which uses rotated groups of keys. It is this layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7ce7576b8c064a2f3db60036cf82c7c9
Post by: derezzed on Tue, 17 March 2015, 19:50:22
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 March 2015, 21:12:37
swill, your plate building tool is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not asking you to change this "feature" I discovered, but I did want to raise awareness to anyone who is planning on using this tool to design a sandwich case. Choosing any number of screw holes that results in a screw hole being placed on the middle of the edge of the long side of the plate, will result in the screw hole being placed where the USB port cut out is on the open layer of the case. I've found this to be an issue for cases with 6 holes, 18 holes, and 22 holes. If the number of screw holes is not a multiple of an odd number, you won't have an issue. If the number of screws is a multiple of an odd number, you might have an issue.Haha. Ya that's a "feature". It allows people to use a screw to hold their USB in place.
(Attachment Link)
Yes, I knew this was possible, but I assumed most people would notice and work around it. It is always a bit tricky when you try to make things really flexible and dynamic because there are more edge cases. Some of these cases could be considered features or bugs, depending on your perspective or creativity. :)
Its worth pointing out though. Thanks for bringing it up because it is a good thing to be aware of.
Post by: derezzed on Tue, 17 March 2015, 21:44:47
swill, your plate building tool is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not asking you to change this "feature" I discovered, but I did want to raise awareness to anyone who is planning on using this tool to design a sandwich case. Choosing any number of screw holes that results in a screw hole being placed on the middle of the edge of the long side of the plate, will result in the screw hole being placed where the USB port cut out is on the open layer of the case. I've found this to be an issue for cases with 6 holes, 18 holes, and 22 holes. If the number of screw holes is not a multiple of an odd number, you won't have an issue. If the number of screws is a multiple of an odd number, you might have an issue.Haha. Ya that's a "feature". It allows people to use a screw to hold their USB in place.
(Attachment Link)
That explains it. The middle hole is for a set screw to lock down the USB port. It's the perfect solution for hand-wired boards where there's no PCB to solder the port to. You really did think of everything. Check and mate.
edit:
Also, as BigBlueSaw previously stated, the issue with the BBS web app rotating parts is solved. I've found that putting 32 open and closed layers in a single dxf file results in prices between $8 and $9 a unit, depending upon thickness and material ( I tried clear acrylic and clear polycarbonate). I don't know if this is the optimal number of plates but that's what I used. Also, there's a lot of wasted space in the closed layer. If someone was enterprising enough, they could modify their closed layer to include additional cuts (feet or something else) inside the rectangle.
Post by: swill on Tue, 17 March 2015, 21:48:35
With this much spin I should be a politician. :)swill, your plate building tool is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not asking you to change this "feature" I discovered, but I did want to raise awareness to anyone who is planning on using this tool to design a sandwich case. Choosing any number of screw holes that results in a screw hole being placed on the middle of the edge of the long side of the plate, will result in the screw hole being placed where the USB port cut out is on the open layer of the case. I've found this to be an issue for cases with 6 holes, 18 holes, and 22 holes. If the number of screw holes is not a multiple of an odd number, you won't have an issue. If the number of screws is a multiple of an odd number, you might have an issue.Haha. Ya that's a "feature". It allows people to use a screw to hold their USB in place.
(Attachment Link)
That explains it. The middle hole is for a set screw to lock down the USB port. It's the perfect solution for hand-wired boards where there's no PCB to solder the port to. You really did think of everything. Check and mate.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 18 March 2015, 08:31:59
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 March 2015, 09:19:10
The screws are nice to have, but really, you could just epoxy or glue the inner layers together and to either the top or the bottom.
The bottom plate needs to be removeable so screws are usually the best option. It would suck if you made a mistake in your matrix or you had to desolder something and everything was glued together. :)
I am probably going to glue together my middle layers though...
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Wed, 18 March 2015, 10:04:49
And if you use a keyboard PCB, you may even glue the bottom layer, but the top one still have to be removable.The screws are nice to have, but really, you could just epoxy or glue the inner layers together and to either the top or the bottom.
The bottom plate needs to be removeable so screws are usually the best option. It would suck if you made a mistake in your matrix or you had to desolder something and everything was glued together. :)
I am probably going to glue together my middle layers though...
Post by: cmadrid on Wed, 18 March 2015, 11:58:51
swill, your plate building tool is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not asking you to change this "feature" I discovered, but I did want to raise awareness to anyone who is planning on using this tool to design a sandwich case. Choosing any number of screw holes that results in a screw hole being placed on the middle of the edge of the long side of the plate, will result in the screw hole being placed where the USB port cut out is on the open layer of the case. I've found this to be an issue for cases with 6 holes, 18 holes, and 22 holes. If the number of screw holes is not a multiple of an odd number, you won't have an issue. If the number of screws is a multiple of an odd number, you might have an issue.Haha. Ya that's a "feature". It allows people to use a screw to hold their USB in place.
(Attachment Link)
That explains it. The middle hole is for a set screw to lock down the USB port. It's the perfect solution for hand-wired boards where there's no PCB to solder the port to. You really did think of everything. Check and mate.
edit:
Also, as BigBlueSaw previously stated, the issue with the BBS web app rotating parts is solved. I've found that putting 32 open and closed layers in a single dxf file results in prices between $8 and $9 a unit, depending upon thickness and material ( I tried clear acrylic and clear polycarbonate). I don't know if this is the optimal number of plates but that's what I used. Also, there's a lot of wasted space in the closed layer. If someone was enterprising enough, they could modify their closed layer to include additional cuts (feet or something else) inside the rectangle.
Group buy.. ;)
*at that kind of price I wouldnt have a problem with a few extra dollars added for group buy handling fees and maybe a give swill some $ fee ;)
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 18 March 2015, 19:30:53
swill, your plate building tool is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not asking you to change this "feature" I discovered, but I did want to raise awareness to anyone who is planning on using this tool to design a sandwich case. Choosing any number of screw holes that results in a screw hole being placed on the middle of the edge of the long side of the plate, will result in the screw hole being placed where the USB port cut out is on the open layer of the case. I've found this to be an issue for cases with 6 holes, 18 holes, and 22 holes. If the number of screw holes is not a multiple of an odd number, you won't have an issue. If the number of screws is a multiple of an odd number, you might have an issue.Haha. Ya that's a "feature". It allows people to use a screw to hold their USB in place.
(Attachment Link)
That explains it. The middle hole is for a set screw to lock down the USB port. It's the perfect solution for hand-wired boards where there's no PCB to solder the port to. You really did think of everything. Check and mate.
edit:
Also, as BigBlueSaw previously stated, the issue with the BBS web app rotating parts is solved. I've found that putting 32 open and closed layers in a single dxf file results in prices between $8 and $9 a unit, depending upon thickness and material ( I tried clear acrylic and clear polycarbonate). I don't know if this is the optimal number of plates but that's what I used. Also, there's a lot of wasted space in the closed layer. If someone was enterprising enough, they could modify their closed layer to include additional cuts (feet or something else) inside the rectangle.
Group buy.. ;)
*at that kind of price I wouldnt have a problem with a few extra dollars added for group buy handling fees and maybe a give swill some $ fee ;)
It's tempting. A dxf file with 20 bottom plates gets an estimate of just over $18 per unit for 3mm stainless steel t-304. A dxf file with 32 bottom plates gets an estimate of over $17 per unit for 3mm stainless steel t-304. If the estimates are fairly accurate, you could get 1 3mm stainless steel bottom plate, and 1 4.5 or 6mm open layer and 1 4.5 or 6 mm closed layer in acrylic or polycarbonate, at a price of around $40 per unit when you buy quantities of 20 or more (or even a little less). Keep in mind, I selected clear acrylic and clear polycarbonate in stock thickness for the middle layers because I could get an immediate price quote from the web app. If a group wanted different thickness, plastic, or color for the middle layers, they would have to contact BBS for a quote. Also, the BBS web app can't handle large files. A dxf file with only 6 switch plates is all the web app can manage. At that quantity, a single group of 6 1.5mm stainless t-304 switch plates with cut outs to allow in-plate switch opening is $48 per unit. If BBS can handle a larger file internally, maybe the price would drop significantly. But at 5 sheets of 6 plates, yielding 30 plates, the price only drops to around $43 dollars per unit. So, in quantities of 20 (give or take), a 4 layer case could range between $80 to $90, by my calculations, with the switch layer accounting for roughly half the cost. Switching to 3.175mm polycarbonate for the switch plate (again, the same design) results in a cost of $34 per unit in quantities of 30 units. I'm extremely new to this, so I don't know how compelling the price for this is, compared to other available options (60% Tex case for $120, etc.), but for hand-wiring a custom board when you have no PCB, this might be a good price.
For future reference, if a group buy results from a design utilizing swill's tool, and I join the group buy, I would not be opposed to the group charging a little extra to either subsidize buying a case for swill (if he's interested) or just to send swill some cash to thank him for facilitating the design process.
Post by: Latin00032 on Wed, 18 March 2015, 20:00:05
Ahh! Ok.Darn! I suck at this.
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
This is likely because you still have the {y:1.5} set on your first row because you most likely took the 104 layout and removed the keys, but did not reset the size of the plate.
For example, your plate probably looks like this in the keyboard-layout-editor:
(Attachment Link)
(notice the space at the top)
This is because of this in the layout editor:
(Attachment Link)
You need to remove that {y:1.5} to get rid of the extra space, like this:
(Attachment Link)
Which will result in the following:
(Attachment Link)
That will be working... Does that make sense? That solve your problem?
I see what I did.
Im getting closer. The only question is what material to use. Also, what is the proper thickness? Can it be too thick?
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 March 2015, 20:02:50
If you are hand wiring, yes the thickness matters. You need the switches to clip into the plate so it has to be 1.5-1.6mm. If you are using a PCB you can use 5mm and it will fill the space between the PCB and the top.Ahh! Ok.Darn! I suck at this.
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
This is likely because you still have the {y:1.5} set on your first row because you most likely took the 104 layout and removed the keys, but did not reset the size of the plate.
For example, your plate probably looks like this in the keyboard-layout-editor:
(Attachment Link)
(notice the space at the top)
This is because of this in the layout editor:
(Attachment Link)
You need to remove that {y:1.5} to get rid of the extra space, like this:
(Attachment Link)
Which will result in the following:
(Attachment Link)
That will be working... Does that make sense? That solve your problem?
I see what I did.
Im getting closer. The only question is what material to use. Also, what is the proper thickness? Can it be too thick?
Post by: Latin00032 on Wed, 18 March 2015, 20:09:39
If I'm using certain metals for the plate at 5mm for pcb mounting, couldn't that cause a short?If you are hand wiring, yes the thickness matters. You need the switches to clip into the plate so it has to be 1.5-1.6mm. If you are using a PCB you can use 5mm and it will fill the space between the PCB and the top.Ahh! Ok.Darn! I suck at this.
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
This is likely because you still have the {y:1.5} set on your first row because you most likely took the 104 layout and removed the keys, but did not reset the size of the plate.
For example, your plate probably looks like this in the keyboard-layout-editor:
(Attachment Link)
(notice the space at the top)
This is because of this in the layout editor:
(Attachment Link)
You need to remove that {y:1.5} to get rid of the extra space, like this:
(Attachment Link)
Which will result in the following:
(Attachment Link)
That will be working... Does that make sense? That solve your problem?
I see what I did.
Im getting closer. The only question is what material to use. Also, what is the proper thickness? Can it be too thick?
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 March 2015, 20:33:56
If you are using any kind of metal, do 1.5-1.6mm. Don't pay extra for no reason. The reason people use 5mm for anything is because they are using acrylic. Acrylic is cheap, but won't work if it is only 1.5mm because it is not strong enough.If I'm using certain metals for the plate at 5mm for pcb mounting, couldn't that cause a short?If you are hand wiring, yes the thickness matters. You need the switches to clip into the plate so it has to be 1.5-1.6mm. If you are using a PCB you can use 5mm and it will fill the space between the PCB and the top.Ahh! Ok.Darn! I suck at this.
I'm trying to make a poker plate and I have a big portion left up top.
What kind of radius should I use for the poker plate?
This is likely because you still have the {y:1.5} set on your first row because you most likely took the 104 layout and removed the keys, but did not reset the size of the plate.
For example, your plate probably looks like this in the keyboard-layout-editor:
(Attachment Link)
(notice the space at the top)
This is because of this in the layout editor:
(Attachment Link)
You need to remove that {y:1.5} to get rid of the extra space, like this:
(Attachment Link)
Which will result in the following:
(Attachment Link)
That will be working... Does that make sense? That solve your problem?
I see what I did.
Im getting closer. The only question is what material to use. Also, what is the proper thickness? Can it be too thick?
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 March 2015, 23:15:16
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
[attachimg=1]
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
[attachimg=2]
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
[attachimg=3]
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
[attachimg=4]
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},This would result in the following cutout:
[attachimg=5]
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 March 2015, 23:32:42
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 March 2015, 23:52:59
^ Very clever. :thumb:
I thought you might like that. :) Feel free to suggest more 'hidden features' if you think of them.
I really need to add support for alps stabilizers. Do you know where I can get the spec for that?
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Thu, 19 March 2015, 04:53:47
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 08:07:11
What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Thu, 19 March 2015, 08:37:13
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 March 2015, 08:45:32
^ Very clever. :thumb:
I thought you might like that. :) Feel free to suggest more 'hidden features' if you think of them.
I really need to add support for alps stabilizers. Do you know where I can get the spec for that?
I think this is correct, but maybe someone can verify?
(http://i.imgur.com/yoM2Yvd.png)
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 10:03:45
^ Very clever. :thumb:
I thought you might like that. :) Feel free to suggest more 'hidden features' if you think of them.
I really need to add support for alps stabilizers. Do you know where I can get the spec for that?
I think this is correct, but maybe someone can verify?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/yoM2Yvd.png)
Awesome! Thanks dude, super helpful (as always). So the 6.25 and 7 unit spacebars have the same stabilizers?
I will see if I can implement this tonight. If there are changes, I can always tweak it later, but getting the code written for the support is the first half of the battle.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 10:07:15
^ Very clever. :thumb:
I thought you might like that. :) Feel free to suggest more 'hidden features' if you think of them.
I really need to add support for alps stabilizers. Do you know where I can get the spec for that?
I think this is correct, but maybe someone can verify?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/yoM2Yvd.png)
Quickly looking at this (and not verifying my drawings), it looks like it might be possible to put Alps and Costar stabilizers on the same drawing without them interfering with each other. I will have to actually do some measurements and validate this, but if thats possible it would probably be a good idea. Ya?
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 19 March 2015, 11:18:36
What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
I considered using the interiors of middle layers for extra parts such as feet, noting that the Gon Nerd Crystal case uses a clear plastic bar to tilt the case. Maybe that isn't practical for the materials we would be using, but what if we put a switch plate for a stand-alone tenkey pad inside the middle layers or a plate with switch cutouts designed to hold switches so they can be opened and modded? I know someone else (maybe Dihedral?) on GeekHack proposed making a switch modding plate from bent metal. Why not plastic? There's plenty to spare in the middle layers.
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 March 2015, 12:35:01
What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
I considered using the interiors of middle layers for extra parts such as feet, noting that the Gon Nerd Crystal case uses a clear plastic bar to tilt the case. Maybe that isn't practical for the materials we would be using, but what if we put a switch plate for a stand-alone tenkey pad inside the middle layers or a plate with switch cutouts designed to hold switches so they can be opened and modded? I know someone else (maybe Dihedral?) on GeekHack proposed making a switch modding plate from bent metal. Why not plastic? There's plenty to spare in the middle layers.
One thing you will find is that, it's not just the cost of the material you are using, but also the time required to make the cuts that you are paying for. That's why switch plates cost more to have cut than other case layers. Once you start adding things to the other layers, you lose those savings.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 12:45:05
What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
I considered using the interiors of middle layers for extra parts such as feet, noting that the Gon Nerd Crystal case uses a clear plastic bar to tilt the case. Maybe that isn't practical for the materials we would be using, but what if we put a switch plate for a stand-alone tenkey pad inside the middle layers or a plate with switch cutouts designed to hold switches so they can be opened and modded? I know someone else (maybe Dihedral?) on GeekHack proposed making a switch modding plate from bent metal. Why not plastic? There's plenty to spare in the middle layers.
One thing you will find is that, it's not just the cost of the material you are using, but also the time required to make the cuts that you are paying for. That's why switch plates cost more to have cut than other case layers. Once you start adding things to the other layers, you lose those savings.
Yes, the cost will definitely go up, BUT if people also want keypads, the overall cost of cutting both will be less. So if the space is being put to good use, then yes, I totally agree. If we are making cuts just to use the space and we are not very many people will want the result, it may not be worth it.
Using that space for something interesting would be a really good idea. I like the idea of using it to build small lube stations. I already have a (much too large for the space) version that I am toying with getting cut.
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 19 March 2015, 17:24:00
What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
I considered using the interiors of middle layers for extra parts such as feet, noting that the Gon Nerd Crystal case uses a clear plastic bar to tilt the case. Maybe that isn't practical for the materials we would be using, but what if we put a switch plate for a stand-alone tenkey pad inside the middle layers or a plate with switch cutouts designed to hold switches so they can be opened and modded? I know someone else (maybe Dihedral?) on GeekHack proposed making a switch modding plate from bent metal. Why not plastic? There's plenty to spare in the middle layers.
One thing you will find is that, it's not just the cost of the material you are using, but also the time required to make the cuts that you are paying for. That's why switch plates cost more to have cut than other case layers. Once you start adding things to the other layers, you lose those savings.
Yes, the cost will definitely go up, BUT if people also want keypads, the overall cost of cutting both will be less. So if the space is being put to good use, then yes, I totally agree. If we are making cuts just to use the space and we are not very many people will want the result, it may not be worth it.
Using that space for something interesting would be a really good idea. I like the idea of using it to build small lube stations. I already have a (much too large for the space) version that I am toying with getting cut.
What about using that space for the support layer for an all-acrylic case? Considerations would have to be made for the thickness of the closed layer. But it seems like having the support layer not extend the full dimensions of the case would not be an issue if it is glued to the switch plate. Even if the outer holes on the support layer are open on the outside edge, the case itself would support the switch plate along the edge. If someone with more knowledge or experience of the subject could support or refute this assumption, I would appreciate it.
I just realized that the top layer of the case would only be supported by 1.5mm of acrylic. Additional design would need to made to make sure the top layer was properly supported.
Post by: QuiGonJinn on Thu, 19 March 2015, 17:35:58
I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 March 2015, 18:46:59
I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 19:24:28
They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 March 2015, 19:28:41
They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
You are right swill, costar holes would need to be extended in the Y axis not X. Sorry for the confusion.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 19:33:09
I guess I should add the ability to change the costar cutout by a 'grow_stab_x' and 'grow_stab_y' setting so we can dynamically modify it.They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
You are right swill, costar holes would need to be extended in the Y axis not X. Sorry for the confusion.
How do alps stabs attach? Plate or PCB?
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 March 2015, 19:47:05
I guess I should add the ability to change the costar cutout by a 'grow_stab_x' and 'grow_stab_y' setting so we can dynamically modify it.They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
You are right swill, costar holes would need to be extended in the Y axis not X. Sorry for the confusion.
How do alps stabs attach? Plate or PCB?
Every alps stab I have seen so far has been plate mount.
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 19:48:34
Cool. Thanks. :)I guess I should add the ability to change the costar cutout by a 'grow_stab_x' and 'grow_stab_y' setting so we can dynamically modify it.They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
You are right swill, costar holes would need to be extended in the Y axis not X. Sorry for the confusion.
How do alps stabs attach? Plate or PCB?
Every alps stab I have seen so far has been plate mount.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Thu, 19 March 2015, 20:07:27
Post by: swill on Thu, 19 March 2015, 20:47:23
Gosh the quoting makes it impossible to follow on mobileYou need tapatalk. Its solid...
Post by: cmadrid on Thu, 19 March 2015, 20:51:06
Post by: QuiGonJinn on Fri, 20 March 2015, 06:20:19
I guess I should add the ability to change the costar cutout by a 'grow_stab_x' and 'grow_stab_y' setting so we can dynamically modify it.They clip into the sides? I thought they clipped into the top and bottom.I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
I am going to cut an acrylic TKL case locally, and you saved me a lot of time with this feature. I am going to use one 3mm plate with 16mm cutouts under the switch plate, and one above, to keep it stable. Do I have to manually increase the cutout for costar stabilizers, and to what dimensions?
Costar holes will have to be made bigger but only in the X axis. Not quite sure how much though.
You are right swill, costar holes would need to be extended in the Y axis not X. Sorry for the confusion.
How do alps stabs attach? Plate or PCB?
Yes, actually costar stabilizers clip into the top and bottom, but on the top side they extend to the right and left. So if I'm not mistaken, if I want both top and bottom support plate to be the same, I need to extend both sides. I found out how to do that with offsetting in AutoCAD, so I'm going to cut the switch plate next week, and hopefully I'l figure out the offset needed for the stabilizers.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 20 March 2015, 06:30:58
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 20 March 2015, 06:39:53
Swill, does this support center/stepped caps dual use hole?
I don't think it supports any overlapping holes like that.
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 March 2015, 08:45:10
Swill, does this support center/stepped caps dual use hole?No, but that does not stop you from creating the overlapping keys in the layout editor and the plate will be cut to support both.
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 March 2015, 10:39:44
Swill, does this support center/stepped caps dual use hole?
Alright, I just tested and this seems to work perfectly. Here is the result:
[attachimg=1]
I "think" (I don't know) the stepped capslock has a center as if the key was a 1.25 unit key and then has a .5 unit space to the right.
So I used the following code:
Code: [Select]
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 20 March 2015, 10:45:33
I "think" (I don't know) the stepped capslock has a center as if the key was a 1.25 unit key and then has a .5 unit space to the right.
Yep. :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 March 2015, 10:47:46
Thanks for confirming. :)I "think" (I don't know) the stepped capslock has a center as if the key was a 1.25 unit key and then has a .5 unit space to the right.
Yep. :)
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 20 March 2015, 11:07:19
Post by: swill on Fri, 20 March 2015, 11:46:13
Thanks I've been on the layout editor and wasn't figuring it out. Also yesterday I was on there and every poker plate I generated has a huge top area. So clearly even though my iq is at least 40 I can't seem to get the editor to do my bidding.
This is why you have the huge top area: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1683486#msg1683486
You can post the code for a layout if you want and I can help you understand why it is not behaving...
Post by: evangs on Sat, 21 March 2015, 00:44:00
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/akiajcw5msvo2fygbmqqbirsuj/1426915457_IvsbL_image.jpg)
which was used to build my first ever keyboard from scratch
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/akiajcw5msvo2fygbmqqbirsuj/1426915457_3dVB8_image.jpg)
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sat, 21 March 2015, 05:23:06
I got the idea from Korean cases as well.What is everyone doing for the feet?I use rubber bumpers from 'bumper specialties'. They are not the cheapest, but the quality is good. A lot of people use bumpons from amazon.
I was thinking something could be done with all the stuff left from the middle layers, but idk what lol.
I would not recommend making the feet out if acrylic because the board will slide all over the place. You want something with a large coefficient of friction.
I considered using the interiors of middle layers for extra parts such as feet, noting that the Gon Nerd Crystal case uses a clear plastic bar to tilt the case.
The idea was to use those bumper things after reaching an incline with a tower of scraps.
I didn't mean to leave it as a hovercraft lol, but is incline too uncool to have come as the first thought? =(
Maybe I shouldn't have just said feet, but what else do you call them?
Well now I know what the 3M rubber things are called.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 08:05:04
got a plate made using your tool and had big blue saw cut it for me. it came out great!!Awesome. Looking good dude. :)Show Image(https://s3.amazonaws.com/akiajcw5msvo2fygbmqqbirsuj/1426915457_IvsbL_image.jpg)
which was used to build my first ever keyboard from scratchShow Image(https://s3.amazonaws.com/akiajcw5msvo2fygbmqqbirsuj/1426915457_3dVB8_image.jpg)
Thanks for reporting back.
Post by: Dihedral on Sat, 21 March 2015, 12:26:07
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 13:05:45
So has anyone recently tried using cutout 2 with alps? Success?I have not followed up with big blue saw on that. I may need to change my cutout to 12.9 instead of 12.8 on the edges for alps. I will talk to him and see if we can figure out what is going on.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 21 March 2015, 13:33:49
Since my cutouts of the same shape have only a 12.0mm cut out at that dimension, I don't see how that could be the problem. I don't have an issue fitting any Alps switch in my cutouts. Something else must be at fault.So has anyone recently tried using cutout 2 with alps? Success?I have not followed up with big blue saw on that. I may need to change my cutout to 12.9 instead of 12.8 on the edges for alps. I will talk to him and see if we can figure out what is going on.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 13:37:28
Really? I saw one of your cutouts at 12.8 and I thought I saw the spec was 12.9.Since my cutouts of the same shape have only a 12.0mm cut out at that dimension, I don't see how that could be the problem. I don't have an issue fitting any Alps switch in my cutouts. Something else must be at fault.So has anyone recently tried using cutout 2 with alps? Success?I have not followed up with big blue saw on that. I may need to change my cutout to 12.9 instead of 12.8 on the edges for alps. I will talk to him and see if we can figure out what is going on.
Hmmm. I will measure the steel plate I bought from you and see what that one has.
Post by: imbattable on Sat, 21 March 2015, 16:51:42
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
Post by: metalliqaz on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:40:11
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:53:36
Hey Swill, where did you get the specification for the Costar stabilizer cutouts?I got them off deskthority. It was the only reference I found.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:54:52
How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).If you want the holes closer, add more holes. ;)
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
My code tries to evenly space the holes around the case based on how many holes are defined.
Post by: metalliqaz on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:55:26
I'll check it out, thanks!Hey Swill, where did you get the specification for the Costar stabilizer cutouts?I got them off deskthority. It was the only reference I found.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:56:08
Google costar spec and you should hit it. That's how I found it.I'll check it out, thanks!Hey Swill, where did you get the specification for the Costar stabilizer cutouts?I got them off deskthority. It was the only reference I found.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 17:56:40
How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
Post by: abjr on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:08:51
Hey Swill, where did you get the specification for the Costar stabilizer cutouts?
I found one here in the past: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33298.0
Post by: imbattable on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:18:40
How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
No, I know that I can add more holes by adding more holes :cool:
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width). But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:39:22
Yes the hole center is at the center of the padding. You want to move the center of the holes farther towards the edge of the plate (or vise versa)?How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
No, I know that I can add more holes by adding more holes :cool:
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width). But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Post by: abjr on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:39:35
Alright, when I put a caliper on the screws I have I get the following:
M2 Screw section: 1.9mm
M2 Head: 3.4mm
M3 Screw section: 2.9mm
M3 Head: 5.1mm
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width).
It's funny that you just posted this. I had been worried about the screw heads overhanging the plate and swill took some measurements of the screws. Not sure I thanked him for that, so thanks!. I didn't realize at first that the center point of the mounting holes was simply located at height_padding/2. I was originally using 5mm of padding, so that puts the center of the mounting hole at 2.5mm from the edge of the plate. The radius of the M3 screw as measured above would have been 2.55mm. So there would have been overhang. Not sure why I just realized this today!
But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from the tool, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:46:52
You will never notice 0.05mm. It will feel flush.Alright, when I put a caliper on the screws I have I get the following:
M2 Screw section: 1.9mm
M2 Head: 3.4mm
M3 Screw section: 2.9mm
M3 Head: 5.1mmWhat I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width).
It's funny that you just posted this. I had been worried about the screw heads overhanging the plate and swill took some measurements of the screws. Not sure I thanked him for that, so thanks!. I didn't realize at first that the center point of the mounting holes was simply located at height_padding/2. I was originally using 5mm of padding, so that puts the center of the mounting hole at 2.5mm from the edge of the plate. The radius of the M3 screw as measured above would have been 2.55mm. So there would have been overhang. Not sure why I just realized this today!But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from the tool, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.
Its hard to change stuff like that. You can easily add new cutouts, but changing what is there is hard because it is all rendered as one object.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:49:36
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.htmlI'll check it out, thanks!Hey Swill, where did you get the specification for the Costar stabilizer cutouts?I got them off deskthority. It was the only reference I found.
You could also just get the measurements from a plate built from my tool. :)
Post by: abjr on Sat, 21 March 2015, 18:55:25
You will never notice 0.05mm. It will feel flush.
Its hard to change stuff like that. You can easily add new cutouts, but changing what is there is hard because it is all rendered as one object.
Indeed, although I'm not sure I'd like the aesthetics of it being flush. I'm just trying to somehow convince myself I know what I'm doing. :)
Post by: imbattable on Sat, 21 March 2015, 19:04:14
In DraftSight you can select the shape and choose the last option in the right click menue (I don't have the English version installed, it is something like "Edit block").But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from the tool, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.
Exactly. Since the plate seems to calculate the whole area of keys including the keycaps (with the 19.05mm base unit), the padding has to be pretty large to accomodate M3 through holes (which are d_h = 3.4 mm for medium tolerances according to wikipedia citing DIN EN 20273). I try to add hexagonal holes in the sandwich layers to hold hex nuts instead of using barrel nuts, like the winkeyless cases seem to do. I just thought that might be a good option for the automatically generated sandwich cases.Yes the hole center is at the center of the padding. You want to move the center of the holes farther towards the edge of the plate (or vise versa)?How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
No, I know that I can add more holes by adding more holes :cool:
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width). But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 19:34:06
Why use nuts at all. I will just be threading the holes. :)In DraftSight you can select the shape and choose the last option in the right click menue (I don't have the English version installed, it is something like "Edit block").But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from the tool, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.Exactly. Since the plate seems to calculate the whole area of keys including the keycaps (with the 19.05mm base unit), the padding has to be pretty large to accomodate M3 through holes (which are d_h = 3.4 mm for medium tolerances according to wikipedia citing DIN EN 20273). I try to add hexagonal holes in the sandwich layers to hold hex nuts instead of using barrel nuts, like the winkeyless cases seem to do. I just thought that might be a good option for the automatically generated sandwich cases.Yes the hole center is at the center of the padding. You want to move the center of the holes farther towards the edge of the plate (or vise versa)?How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
No, I know that I can add more holes by adding more holes :cool:
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width). But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
I can look into moving those holes, but that logic is pretty tricky due to the fact that everything is dynamic.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 21 March 2015, 19:39:37
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 19:51:18
For M3 I am using 6mm padding. That should be fine.In DraftSight you can select the shape and choose the last option in the right click menue (I don't have the English version installed, it is something like "Edit block").But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from the tool, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.Exactly. Since the plate seems to calculate the whole area of keys including the keycaps (with the 19.05mm base unit), the padding has to be pretty large to accomodate M3 through holes (which are d_h = 3.4 mm for medium tolerances according to wikipedia citing DIN EN 20273). I try to add hexagonal holes in the sandwich layers to hold hex nuts instead of using barrel nuts, like the winkeyless cases seem to do. I just thought that might be a good option for the automatically generated sandwich cases.Yes the hole center is at the center of the padding. You want to move the center of the holes farther towards the edge of the plate (or vise versa)?How do you determine the placement of the mounting holes in sandwich type cases? It would be nice if there was an additional parameter you could use to move them closer to the middle (distance from left/right and top/bottom edge for the middle of the hole).Are you looking for holes just around the USB jack?
Another nice addition would be an option for sandwich cases, where you can toggle between round and hexagonal holes (like in the winkeyless cases), automatically determining the distance according to the screw/nut definitions (M2.5, M3 etc) with an edge distance to be specified. But that might a) be complicated to implement and b) clutter the interface too much.
No, I know that I can add more holes by adding more holes :cool:
What I mean is that the distance from outer edge to hole seems to be just set on the middle of each padding value (height/width). But I guess it is easier to just calculate a plate with the tool and add my own holes, which works very nice.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 March 2015, 22:33:56
In most CAD software, you select the block and do "explode", if you want to change individual elements, such as lines and arcs.
I just confirmed this works in FreeCAD. This is the process I used.
From Workbench, select Draft. Then right click on the drawing and go to: Draft > Downgrade
This will split the drawing into different line segments.
Post by: abjr on Sat, 21 March 2015, 23:58:34
Can you mention how you would do this. I'm a real noob with CAD, and when I use DraftSight to try and edit one of the DXF files from theIn DraftSight you can select the shape and choose the last option in the right click menue (I don't have the English version installed, it is something like "Edit block").toolbuilder, the entire design is selected. i.e. I can't seem to just select one switch cutout or one mount hole and attempt to move/modify it.
In most CAD software, you select the block and do "explode", if you want to change individual elements, such as lines and arcs.
Perfect! Thank you both. It is indeed called Explode in DraftSight and was right where imbattable said it would be.
Post by: roflcopter159 on Tue, 24 March 2015, 19:19:24
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 March 2015, 19:45:00
I have a couple of quick questions about it this tool. For a plate that is Poker 2 case compatible, what would be the optimal values for the radius of the corner rounding and and the thickness? Also, I'm really not sure what the Kerf value is. Would anyone be able to explain that any? Thanks in advanceI usually use a 2.5 mm radius for the edge corners. Thickness should be 1.5 mm, but you will specify that and the material when you send it to be cut, really. That's for metal, but if you use acrylic for a switch plate, I'd make it 5 mm thick.
Kerf is the value for the thickness of the cutting tool (waterjet or laser). Most shops can compensate for that on their own, if you explain to them what material is important, and what is to be discarded. BigBlueSaw, for example, doesn't need you to compensate for their waterjet's kerf value.
Post by: roflcopter159 on Wed, 25 March 2015, 19:10:51
I usually use a 2.5 mm radius for the edge corners. Thickness should be 1.5 mm, but you will specify that and the material when you send it to be cut, really. That's for metal, but if you use acrylic for a switch plate, I'd make it 5 mm thick.
Kerf is the value for the thickness of the cutting tool (waterjet or laser). Most shops can compensate for that on their own, if you explain to them what material is important, and what is to be discarded. BigBlueSaw, for example, doesn't need you to compensate for their waterjet's kerf value.
How come the thickness for a metal plate vs. an acrylic plate is so different? Also, based on what you said, if I were to use BigBlueSaw, I wouldn't need to specify the kerf, right? Last question, would you recommend using aluminum, or is there a better metal to use for a plate? I assume aluminum would be good, but I don't know for sure and I don't want to choose the wrong material and make an expensive mistake like that.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Wed, 25 March 2015, 19:40:54
How come the thickness for a metal plate vs. an acrylic plate is so different?
Acrylic is not as rigid as metal, you know. That's why people use 5mm acrylic plates.
Post by: cmadrid on Wed, 25 March 2015, 19:49:01
I usually use a 2.5 mm radius for the edge corners. Thickness should be 1.5 mm, but you will specify that and the material when you send it to be cut, really. That's for metal, but if you use acrylic for a switch plate, I'd make it 5 mm thick.
Kerf is the value for the thickness of the cutting tool (waterjet or laser). Most shops can compensate for that on their own, if you explain to them what material is important, and what is to be discarded. BigBlueSaw, for example, doesn't need you to compensate for their waterjet's kerf value.
How come the thickness for a metal plate vs. an acrylic plate is so different? Also, based on what you said, if I were to use BigBlueSaw, I wouldn't need to specify the kerf, right? Last question, would you recommend using aluminum, or is there a better metal to use for a plate? I assume aluminum would be good, but I don't know for sure and I don't want to choose the wrong material and make an expensive mistake like that.
Seems like people typically use aluminum, stainless steel, or acrylic
Post by: swill on Wed, 25 March 2015, 21:00:14
Plates can only be 1.5-1.6mm for the switch to clip securely into the plate. If you use 5mm acrylic you MUST have a PCB to hold the switches in the plate. 5mm is not random, it is the space between the top of the plate and the PCB.I usually use a 2.5 mm radius for the edge corners. Thickness should be 1.5 mm, but you will specify that and the material when you send it to be cut, really. That's for metal, but if you use acrylic for a switch plate, I'd make it 5 mm thick.
Kerf is the value for the thickness of the cutting tool (waterjet or laser). Most shops can compensate for that on their own, if you explain to them what material is important, and what is to be discarded. BigBlueSaw, for example, doesn't need you to compensate for their waterjet's kerf value.
How come the thickness for a metal plate vs. an acrylic plate is so different? Also, based on what you said, if I were to use BigBlueSaw, I wouldn't need to specify the kerf, right? Last question, would you recommend using aluminum, or is there a better metal to use for a plate? I assume aluminum would be good, but I don't know for sure and I don't want to choose the wrong material and make an expensive mistake like that.
Aluminum is the cheapest metal and easiest to work with, so it is the most common for prototyping and regular builds. If you get it anodized, they turn out really nice (not a requirement). The main reason people get it anodized is because aluminum is soft, so it can easily scratch. The anodization process makes the surface much more durable.
Stainless steel is also common. It is a lot heavier and stronger. It is really nice if you have a bigger build and you need solid structure.
That's what I got off the top of my head. Ask if you are confused about anything.
Oh, with bigbluesaw, you can ignore the kerf setting. The default if 0 is good, they will adjust for it. Just so you know, kerf is the width of the opening made by a cutting device.
Post by: roflcopter159 on Thu, 26 March 2015, 20:38:50
Post by: Jason_IRL on Fri, 27 March 2015, 09:50:57
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 27 March 2015, 09:52:30
is the site down?yep:
http://isup.me/builder.swillkb.com
Post by: the pokemon kid on Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:11:35
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:23:31
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Post by: the pokemon kid on Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:26:31
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Yes please, I am getting a bit confused by it now!
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:41:25
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Yes please, I am getting a bit confused by it now!
Sent you my email address in a PM.
Post by: the pokemon kid on Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:50:49
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Yes please, I am getting a bit confused by it now!
Sent you my email address in a PM.
Thanks! Cant wait to get this sorted!
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 March 2015, 13:08:58
is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 March 2015, 13:20:17
is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
the site is back up. after the maintenance some routers go stuck and we had to reboot them. thx for letting me know...
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 March 2015, 13:59:29
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Ouch. Thats a pretty big oversight on keyboard-layout-editor.com. That means that all the resets are wrong. JD can you confirm it is 0.25 units between the arrow cluster section and the numpad? I will do a pull request for the keyboard-layout-editor.com to fix that issue (hopefully he will include my change).
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 27 March 2015, 14:03:27
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Ouch. Thats a pretty big oversight on keyboard-layout-editor.com. That means that all the resets are wrong. JD can you confirm it is 0.25 units between the arrow cluster section and the numpad? I will do a pull request for the keyboard-layout-editor.com to fix that issue (hopefully he will include my change).
Actually, it's not even that, exactly. Those might be close enough to work, but the spacing between the number row and F-row, and between the alphas and nav cluster, isn't exactly fractions of a unit.
Post by: Dihedral on Fri, 27 March 2015, 14:19:51
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
That's really unlucky. Feel for ya :/
Post by: Jason_IRL on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:38:38
is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
the site is back up. after the maintenance some routers go stuck and we had to reboot them. thx for letting me know...
don't mean to be a nuisance, but it appears the site may still be down.
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:39:41
I will check once the baby is asleep.is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
the site is back up. after the maintenance some routers go stuck and we had to reboot them. thx for letting me know...
don't mean to be a nuisance, but it appears the site may still be down.
Post by: evangs on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:45:25
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:50:23
Post by: Jason_IRL on Fri, 27 March 2015, 21:34:45
I will check once the baby is asleep.is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
the site is back up. after the maintenance some routers go stuck and we had to reboot them. thx for letting me know...
don't mean to be a nuisance, but it appears the site may still be down.
you rock swill!
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 March 2015, 21:36:15
It should be back up now. Had to reconfigure some networking because some network flakeyness after the maintenance.I will check once the baby is asleep.is the site down?
Looking into why the site is down. We had a maintenance last night. I will try to get it back up asap...
the site is back up. after the maintenance some routers go stuck and we had to reboot them. thx for letting me know...
don't mean to be a nuisance, but it appears the site may still be down.
you rock swill!
Post by: the pokemon kid on Sat, 28 March 2015, 07:18:13
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
That's really unlucky. Feel for ya :/
As long as it gets sorted and doesnt happen again for someone else. Its annoying that it happened but I did budget into there being an issue with the plate. I was more thinking a manufacturing tollerences but I will have another go at this. I would like to thank JDCarpe for his help though!
Post by: Dihedral on Sat, 28 March 2015, 07:41:15
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
That's really unlucky. Feel for ya :/
As long as it gets sorted and doesnt happen again for someone else. Its annoying that it happened but I did budget into there being an issue with the plate. I was more thinking a manufacturing tollerences but I will have another go at this. I would like to thank JDCarpe for his help though!
You could chop off the navigation part and make a 60% board. Are you using cutout 2? If so, how do alps work with it (if you have any)
Post by: the pokemon kid on Sat, 28 March 2015, 07:45:51
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
That's really unlucky. Feel for ya :/
As long as it gets sorted and doesnt happen again for someone else. Its annoying that it happened but I did budget into there being an issue with the plate. I was more thinking a manufacturing tollerences but I will have another go at this. I would like to thank JDCarpe for his help though!
You could chop off the navigation part and make a 60% board. Are you using cutout 2? If so, how do alps work with it (if you have any)
I am using switch type 3 but you do have a very good point! I might make a little one! Thanks for the suggestion! At least I have a use for it now!
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:21:08
Post by: abjr on Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:31:00
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(]
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Is this universally true or just for TKL? Looking at my 101 and 104 keyboards some are ~0.5 and others are ~0.25 units.
Post by: the pokemon kid on Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:55:59
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(]
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Is this universally true or just for TKL? Looking at my 101 and 104 keyboards some are ~0.5 and others are ~0.25 units.
I am not sure, but it effects the arrow key section and the button section to the right of the F row. They are all a little too far across to the right...
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 29 March 2015, 16:21:05
I just ran a design through hoping to do a combined ISO/ANSI layout but on closer inspection the right side of the ANSI enter stabiliser has no plate at the top, so I guess we have to use PCB mount stabilisers? I was hoping to test the layout with a handwired matrix, but that's not going to work very well so I may need a rethink :))
Post by: ideus on Sun, 29 March 2015, 16:23:06
Thanks for making this swill, I never thought designing a plate could be so easy!
I just ran a design through hoping to do a combined ISO/ANSI layout but on closer inspection the right side of the ANSI enter stabiliser has no plate at the top, so I guess we have to use PCB mount stabilisers? I was hoping to test the layout with a handwired matrix, but that's not going to work very well so I may need a rethink :))
ISO/ANSI plates have to use PCB Cherry style stabilizers.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 29 March 2015, 16:26:49
Thanks for making this swill, I never thought designing a plate could be so easy!
I just ran a design through hoping to do a combined ISO/ANSI layout but on closer inspection the right side of the ANSI enter stabiliser has no plate at the top, so I guess we have to use PCB mount stabilisers? I was hoping to test the layout with a handwired matrix, but that's not going to work very well so I may need a rethink :))
ISO/ANSI plates have to use PCB Cherry style stabilizers.
Thanks for confirming, even if it's not the answer I was hoping for :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 29 March 2015, 18:35:25
Yes. Traditionally this is the case. However, if you pick up a 2 unit enabler PCB you can PCB mount the stab and still hand wire. If you end up wanting to go that route, pm me your address and I will mail you one.Thanks for making this swill, I never thought designing a plate could be so easy!
I just ran a design through hoping to do a combined ISO/ANSI layout but on closer inspection the right side of the ANSI enter stabiliser has no plate at the top, so I guess we have to use PCB mount stabilisers? I was hoping to test the layout with a handwired matrix, but that's not going to work very well so I may need a rethink :))
ISO/ANSI plates have to use PCB Cherry style stabilizers.
Thanks for confirming, even if it's not the answer I was hoping for :)
Post by: joey on Mon, 30 March 2015, 15:45:11
[{y:2.5,w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 30 March 2015, 15:48:49
can someone please share with me the raw code for a winkeyless 84 key layout?
Code: [Select]
["Esc",{x:1},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"PrtSc","Scroll Lock","Pause\nBreak"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace",{x:0.25},"Insert","Home","PgUp"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\",{x:0.25},"Delete","End","PgDn"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift",{x:1.25},"↑"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl",{x:1,w:1.5},"Alt",{w:7},"",{w:1.5},"Win",{x:1,w:1.5},"Ctrl",{x:0.25},"←","↓","→"]
Caveat: You will need to manually adjust the spacing between key sections to fit whatever case you are using.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 30 March 2015, 15:50:49
is the site down?
Yeh, the site is down! And right when I need it :))
I received my plate through the post. I used this tool to get it made, however the ISO 105 without the number pad doesnt fit my TKL case... Am I doing something wrong? from the printscreen button, insert, delete and left arrow across to the right are off. They are 5mm off. Should I just reduce the X axis in keyboard layout manager by 5mm for these keys? Would this work?
Whoever designed that layout in keyboard-layout-editor.com used 0.5-units between the sections (alpha-nav-numpad), when they should have used 0.25-units. :(]
If you want, I can fix the drawing for you.
Is this universally true or just for TKL? Looking at my 101 and 104 keyboards some are ~0.5 and others are ~0.25 units.
Nope, there is no universal standard. It varies from keyboard to keyboard. Also, the measurements aren't exact multiples or fractions of a unit on most modern keyboards. :(
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 30 March 2015, 17:18:12
Yes. Traditionally this is the case. However, if you pick up a 2 unit enabler PCB you can PCB mount the stab and still hand wire. If you end up wanting to go that route, pm me your address and I will mail you one.Thanks for making this swill, I never thought designing a plate could be so easy!
I just ran a design through hoping to do a combined ISO/ANSI layout but on closer inspection the right side of the ANSI enter stabiliser has no plate at the top, so I guess we have to use PCB mount stabilisers? I was hoping to test the layout with a handwired matrix, but that's not going to work very well so I may need a rethink :))
ISO/ANSI plates have to use PCB Cherry style stabilizers.
Thanks for confirming, even if it's not the answer I was hoping for :)
Awesome, thanks! Not sure what's happening yet but I will bear this in mind.
Portable stabilisers though... surely there is something more exciting to do with them than just hiding them under a plate?
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 March 2015, 17:39:09
Hitting a lot of internal server errors right now :/I will look into it. Thx.
[{y:2.5,w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 March 2015, 20:46:20
Hitting a lot of internal server errors right now :/Code: [Select][{y:2.5,w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
I just tried this layout and it worked fine. Not sure why you want 2.5 units of space at the top of the plate though.
I would suggest you use this layout instead to remove it if that is a mistake.
Code: [Select]
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 March 2015, 20:59:21
Hitting a lot of internal server errors right now :/
It appears that there was an error and it hung a couple instances, so it the resources got stuck being consumed. The 2 hour timeout cleared the stuck instances and it fixed itself.
The LXC containers are a good idea and they are working, but they are not really setup in a 'production' configuration. I am building them and tearing them down on the fly, so its a bit of a fragile system if anything goes wrong. Right now it will fix itself every 2 hours if it gets into a bad way. I could potentially bring that down to like an hour to make it fix itself quicker, but thats just the way it is right now.
I am looking at potentially rebuilding the entire tool from scratch in an entirely different language and with an entirely different core engine. We will see, I am still determining the feasibility. The new system would be much more suitable for the types of workloads I am doing, but I would be giving up some features. I would be getting rid of all of the export formats other than SVG and DXF. I would focus on making those two formats work perfectly, but I would be removing all the 3D solid drawings. This means that I would remove compatibility with 3D printers (which I am not too happy about). Even if I do launch a new version of the code, I will keep the old one up on a different URL for people who want to do 3d printing. We will see. I still need to do a bunch of prototyping and I also have to extend the cad engine I am looking at to support floating point precision (it is currently only using ints). I can make it work by doing it larger and scaling down, but I am going to try to add floating point number support as a core feature. :P
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 March 2015, 21:01:07
Ya brass!!!
[attachimg=1]
(teaser because my camera ran out of batteries as soon as I tried to take pics)
Post by: shaymerrill on Mon, 30 March 2015, 21:30:52
Got my first plate made from my tool. :) I am super excited about this one and I think it turned out great. This thing is going to be epic.That looks awesome, the brass turned out great! Glad you finally got yourself in on the action.
Ya brass!!!
(Attachment Link)
(teaser because my camera ran out of batteries as soon as I tried to take pics)
I'm looking forward to using your tool soon, I'm working on designing a two piece ergo board. I just discovered the custom keyboard world and thanks to people like you (and the rest of GH) its possible for me to get in on the fun.
...as if I didn't have enough choices to make I now have to consider brass!
Post by: Dihedral on Tue, 31 March 2015, 01:47:06
Got my first plate made from my tool. :) I am super excited about this one and I think it turned out great. This thing is going to be epic.
Ya brass!!!
(Attachment Link)
(teaser because my camera ran out of batteries as soon as I tried to take pics)
Looks steampunky!
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 31 March 2015, 03:04:49
Post by: swill on Tue, 31 March 2015, 10:04:41
I saw brass as an option on a cutter's site and wondered if it would be suitable - looks like it is! Nice board in progress swill, I hope you have some suitably old school looking caps waiting for it :)I have new old school caps coming for it. I think the 1976 set is destined for this board.
A word of warning with brass. Apparently it warps quite a bit, especially with thicker plates. BBS has been having a hell of a time with my 3mm bottom plate. We will see.
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 02 April 2015, 23:13:16
I saw brass as an option on a cutter's site and wondered if it would be suitable - looks like it is! Nice board in progress swill, I hope you have some suitably old school looking caps waiting for it :)I have new old school caps coming for it. I think the 1976 set is destined for this board.
A word of warning with brass. Apparently it warps quite a bit, especially with thicker plates. BBS has been having a hell of a time with my 3mm bottom plate. We will see.
Is that why the bottom plate isn't in the photo? That thing looks like a beast. Are you going to keep it polished or are you going to let it get a patina?
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 06 April 2015, 20:36:08
First, if you want to make a split layout keyboard, just make two different boards. Especially don't draw your own line on the DXF, as their software won't know how to adjust for kerf.
Second, my shop prefers inches. Apparently he has to go through 2 or 3 conversions to convert the drawings, or an extra 30 minutes of setup and teardown time to convert the machine.
Third, there's something weird about the DXF's I send from DraftSight. I should probably invest in a real CAD tool if I'm going to continue doing this, but for a one-off prototype this has worked well.
If all goes well I should have my plate in hand soon. It's based on this layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7eed8f14ec5c4d77d52bc5e34c464cc2
Post by: GreenUnicorn on Thu, 09 April 2015, 13:10:18
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 10 April 2015, 12:21:00
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70825.0;attach=96897;image)
maybe you could had support to this? I'm not sure how many people would use that though.
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 April 2015, 13:22:52
I've seen several korean boards and even people modding their plate to partial plates:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70825.0;attach=96897;image)
maybe you could had support to this? I'm not sure how many people would use that though.
What is the point of that? Why would you want the alphas pcb mounted and the mods plate mounted?
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 10 April 2015, 13:32:10
I'm not sure, maybe you'll get a better idea there: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70231.msg1707120#msg1707120I've seen several korean boards and even people modding their plate to partial plates:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70825.0;attach=96897;image)
maybe you could had support to this? I'm not sure how many people would use that though.
What is the point of that? Why would you want the alphas pcb mounted and the mods plate mounted?
After a second though, I think people that want to do it will be able to do it quite easily on CAD.
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 10 April 2015, 13:34:34
I've seen several korean boards and even people modding their plate to partial plates:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70825.0;attach=96897;image)
maybe you could had support to this? I'm not sure how many people would use that though.
What is the point of that? Why would you want the alphas pcb mounted and the mods plate mounted?
The point of it is for custom keyboards where the PCB is mounted to the case only by the plate (floated), with no standoffs in the case to attach the PCB. But some people prefer the feel of typing on PCB mounted switches over plate mounted, so they cut the plate out of the alpha section.
Post by: sakai4eva on Sun, 12 April 2015, 12:18:24
Post by: derezzed on Sun, 12 April 2015, 13:09:49
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Mon, 13 April 2015, 00:35:31
The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?That's a very good point that I didn't even consider. I'm trying for thinnest bezel as well. Good thing I'm still mucking around and haven't proceeded with my plans yet. :p
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 13 April 2015, 03:27:28
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 13 April 2015, 19:05:17
(http://i.imgur.com/swPEE6Q.jpg)
After scrubbing the rust away I'm hitting it with a couple coats of rust-oleum for protection:
(http://i.imgur.com/s4MsuHd.jpg)
Tomorrow I hope to wire it up.
Post by: rsheldiii on Mon, 20 April 2015, 15:45:57
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 20 April 2015, 15:47:53
And crap. I've been building towards a custom keyboard that fits in a TEX CNC case and my numbers don't line up to the ones on the site at all. Worst part is the 3d printed prototype totally fits, but I'm at least 3mm off of both Swill's and JD's numbers, and the effect is cumulative (I had to set the unit length to be 19.2 in order for there to not be a ton of slop). I got some tough decisions to make before I get a plate cut...
Hmmm, that's strange. Send me what you have, and I can check it for you. Maybe we can figure out what's going on.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 April 2015, 21:30:10
And crap. I've been building towards a custom keyboard that fits in a TEX CNC case and my numbers don't line up to the ones on the site at all. Worst part is the 3d printed prototype totally fits, but I'm at least 3mm off of both Swill's and JD's numbers, and the effect is cumulative (I had to set the unit length to be 19.2 in order for there to not be a ton of slop). I got some tough decisions to make before I get a plate cut...
Hmmm, that's strange. Send me what you have, and I can check it for you. Maybe we can figure out what's going on.
Ya, I can take a look too. Just send us the files.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 April 2015, 21:43:35
@swill, you might wanna include an option to be notified of the completion of the plate. I think email will be fine.
Sorry I have been so MIA, it has been pretty crazy recently. I haven't even been lurking, never mind posting. :(
The fact that the plate takes so long to render is the main problem I see. The technologies this is built on is not really designed for the way I am using it. Personally, I just leave the tool open in a different tab in my browser and check it periodically when I am doing complex drawings. Recently I have been working on rebuilding my tool from scratch (new language and everything) and skipping the CAD software entirely. I am looking into writing the SVG format directly and then producing a DXF file from that. I found a library that does exactly what I need, but it only has integer precision, so I have been extending the library to support floating point precision everywhere. This should give me all the control I need to produce an SVG.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 April 2015, 21:44:44
So I can confirm that when laser cut, cutout 2 works fine for Alps and MX. It also works fairly well for rotated MX, though the switches are fairly loose.
No problems with the Alps cutout? Where did you get it cut?
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 April 2015, 21:57:41
The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 April 2015, 21:59:42
The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
The fact that I don't have a 1.25u Penumbra Shift key is pretty obvious now. Haha...
Post by: neverused on Mon, 20 April 2015, 22:39:48
Very nice! Beautiful wood and brass contrast.The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Post by: derezzed on Tue, 21 April 2015, 20:44:44
The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Awesome! That is nearly all the information I need when I finally pull the trigger on my custom. Thanks. If I may bother you with a few more questions -- did you hand-wire? did you use notched cutouts and, if so, did you glue your switches to the plate?
Your board is stunning. It's like Penumbra was made specifically for your board. The only thing that would make it better is full SA profile. If you ever post a picture of the entire board, that is definitely getting set as my wallpaper.
Post by: swill on Tue, 21 April 2015, 23:02:49
The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Awesome! That is nearly all the information I need when I finally pull the trigger on my custom. Thanks. If I may bother you with a few more questions -- did you hand-wire? did you use notched cutouts and, if so, did you glue your switches to the plate?
Your board is stunning. It's like Penumbra was made specifically for your board. The only thing that would make it better is full SA profile. If you ever post a picture of the entire board, that is definitely getting set as my wallpaper.
I have not handwired it yet, but I will be using the Enabler PCBs when I do. I used the standard square switch cutouts and the cherry only stabilizer cutouts. I will probably use plate mount stabilizers, but I could use PCB mount and use the 2u Enablers.
Post by: rsheldiii on Wed, 22 April 2015, 20:38:08
And crap. I've been building towards a custom keyboard that fits in a TEX CNC case and my numbers don't line up to the ones on the site at all. Worst part is the 3d printed prototype totally fits, but I'm at least 3mm off of both Swill's and JD's numbers, and the effect is cumulative (I had to set the unit length to be 19.2 in order for there to not be a ton of slop). I got some tough decisions to make before I get a plate cut...
Hmmm, that's strange. Send me what you have, and I can check it for you. Maybe we can figure out what's going on.
Ya, I can take a look too. Just send us the files.
Hey thanks guys, it's much appreciated.
so I made a little album here:
http://imgur.com/a/vjZZI
the first image is the three plates, JDCarpe's DXF in the middle (which is reversed for some reason, but you can see the outline) and Swill's exported STL at the top. I've got around a 3mm difference on you guys, which sounds trivial, but it's across the whole board, so the further right screw holes don't line up at all. The plate I printed on my 3d printer fits the case though in both dimensions really well, which is a fair stroke of coincidence if the sizing is wrong, since the key units are still square - I just upped the side's length from 19.05 to 19.2 and slop on both sides of the plate disappeared perfectly.
The print also seems to be pretty dimensionally accurate, as I have the total length coming in at 288mm, and the case seems to be around 277.5mm or so in the third picture.
my designs aren't proprietary or anything so I'll attach the STL and SCAD here but if we want to continue this elsewhere in order to not gum up the thread that's fine too. Where did you get your numbers from JD? maybe the tex case has extra slop around the edges
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 23 April 2015, 20:45:23
(http://i.imgur.com/Qbl59JK.png)
Info I'm putting in:
More
(http://i.imgur.com/1iOlcYM.png)
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Thu, 23 April 2015, 20:51:49
Am I doing something wrong? I'm trying to make an AEK II plate, and this is what I'm getting spit out:Delete this in the 1st line:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Qbl59JK.png)
Info I'm putting in:MoreShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/1iOlcYM.png)
Code: [Select]
{y:1.5},You forgot to reposition the keys at the Keyboard Layout Editor.
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 23 April 2015, 21:08:15
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 April 2015, 23:10:51
Actually needed to change that y to a w. I took the raw data as I was supposed to, but it wasn't quite right.As Vinny pointed out. Remove the '{y:1.5},' from the first line in the raw dara you pasted into the tool and it will fix it.
In the editor UI you just removed the keys from a preset 104 layout, but did not remove the space taken up by the function row in the original layout.
Make sense?
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Fri, 24 April 2015, 04:40:59
Did you make the middle screw holes on the side with your tool? Or was it added after?The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Post by: swill on Fri, 24 April 2015, 06:17:31
Did you make the middle screw holes on the side with your tool? Or was it added after?The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Everything was done with my tool, no other modifications. I think I used 14 screws. They are all evenly spaces.
Post by: fknraiden on Fri, 24 April 2015, 18:47:07
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sat, 25 April 2015, 06:09:15
Oh, now I see. I think my previous attempts were 10 holes or less, and it never gave me side holes. I thought they were only meant to be spaced along the top and bottom lol.Did you make the middle screw holes on the side with your tool? Or was it added after?The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Everything was done with my tool, no other modifications. I think I used 14 screws. They are all evenly spaces.
Post by: swill on Sat, 25 April 2015, 08:39:13
The holes will be evenly spaced around the case. To get holes in the sides you need to add enough holes to make the space between them small enough to start filling in the sides.Oh, now I see. I think my previous attempts were 10 holes or less, and it never gave me side holes. I thought they were only meant to be spaced along the top and bottom lol.Did you make the middle screw holes on the side with your tool? Or was it added after?The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Everything was done with my tool, no other modifications. I think I used 14 screws. They are all evenly spaces.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Sat, 25 April 2015, 23:01:02
Now I have to play around with it more and see what I can get. =DThe holes will be evenly spaced around the case. To get holes in the sides you need to add enough holes to make the space between them small enough to start filling in the sides.Oh, now I see. I think my previous attempts were 10 holes or less, and it never gave me side holes. I thought they were only meant to be spaced along the top and bottom lol.Did you make the middle screw holes on the side with your tool? Or was it added after?The plate builder tool tip for height and width padding settings uses an example of 6 mm. Is 6 mm sufficient for a sandwich case with stainless steel top and bottom plates and 2 mm screw holes? I want the thinnest bezel possible while still having structural integrity. At 6 mm padding, the middle layers would only have 2 mm of material on either side of the screw holes. At this thickness, is acrylic strong enough to avoid cracking if the keyboard gets dropped from a height of 1 inch or would polycarbonate be a better choice for padding this narrow?So here is what I did in brass. 6mm padding all around with a 3mm rounded corner. I used an M3 screw, but I made the hole 2.5mm in diameter and tapped them.
Potatoes...Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/b78cf6265e9a8d8cc85f78b5dad445f0.jpg)Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/c1300f3be504188d81c1a06289fcdac5.jpg)
I think 2mm with M2s should be fine. If you are worried, error on the side if too many screws and that will help mitigate the strain on one specific screw.
Everything was done with my tool, no other modifications. I think I used 14 screws. They are all evenly spaces.
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 27 April 2015, 12:45:38
Anyone have an idea of what may be going on here?
Post by: Dihedral on Mon, 27 April 2015, 13:23:12
I've seen several korean boards and even people modding their plate to partial plates:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70825.0;attach=96897;image)
maybe you could had support to this? I'm not sure how many people would use that though.
What is the point of that? Why would you want the alphas pcb mounted and the mods plate mounted?
Nice springy feel alphas and solid feeling mods I guess.
Post by: Usarise on Mon, 27 April 2015, 13:44:27
I just want to make a simple 60% on the cheap with this as I have access to a laser cutter & water jet cutter as well as scraps of materials to use for construction. I'm using 14 holes with 3mm diameter, the 6mm padding on all sides & 3mm corners. I am planning on making the case sandwich style and I'm not really sure how thick I need the two middle pieces to be on the safe side. Any suggestions as well as any tips when I cut it?
Post by: evera on Mon, 27 April 2015, 16:02:09
(http://i.imgur.com/bG6hLyV.jpg)
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 27 April 2015, 23:00:30
Got my first acrylic swill plate laser cut (from ponoko.com)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bG6hLyV.jpg)
Looks good. What size padding and what size screw hole did you choose?
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:09:58
Hey! So I've been lurking through this thread and I just wanted to get a few suggestions before I run off and build something with it!
I just want to make a simple 60% on the cheap with this as I have access to a laser cutter & water jet cutter as well as scraps of materials to use for construction. I'm using 14 holes with 3mm diameter, the 6mm padding on all sides & 3mm corners. I am planning on making the case sandwich style and I'm not really sure how thick I need the two middle pieces to be on the safe side. Any suggestions as well as any tips when I cut it?
The settings you are describing are pretty much exactly what I used (images posted recently to compare). I think 6mm padding for M3 screws works pretty well. The 3mm rounded corner with 6mm padding is pretty nice as well.
As for thickness of the middle plates, I think it depends a bit on how you plan to wire it up. Are you using teensy? You need to have enough space under the switches to fit a controller and the wiring. For my board (which I have not wired up yet, but looks like it will work fine), I used 4 layers of 0.15" (3.81mm). This gives me a total middle thickness of 0.6" (15.24mm). According to the cherry spec, the switch takes 8.5mm of space from the top of the switch. This means that it takes 7mm of space below a 1.5mm plate. the tallest part of a teensy is where the mini USB connector plugs into it. The mini USB connector is 4mm tall and the teensy PCB is probably about 1.5mm, so you are looking at about 6mm of space needed for the teensy (without wiggle room). So by my calculations, you need at least 14mm of middle layer to make everything fit inside...
As for suggestions when you cut it. You will want to do a test cut and measure the kerf of the cut and then enter that into the tool so the openings are the correct size. Let me know if you have questions and I can help you...
Post by: evera on Tue, 28 April 2015, 16:25:31
Got my first acrylic swill plate laser cut (from ponoko.com)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bG6hLyV.jpg)
Looks good. What size padding and what size screw hole did you choose?
I think I used 6mm padding and 3mm holes. I cut it on 3mm acrylic. seems a bit thick, so i'll go for 1.5mm next time.
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 April 2015, 19:02:19
If you are not using a PCB it needs to be 1.5mm (careful, won't be strong enough on its own). If you are using a PCB you should probably use 5mm.Got my first acrylic swill plate laser cut (from ponoko.com)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bG6hLyV.jpg)
Looks good. What size padding and what size screw hole did you choose?
I think I used 6mm padding and 3mm holes. I cut it on 3mm acrylic. seems a bit thick, so i'll go for 1.5mm next time.
Post by: Usarise on Wed, 29 April 2015, 09:07:10
Hey! So I've been lurking through this thread and I just wanted to get a few suggestions before I run off and build something with it!
I just want to make a simple 60% on the cheap with this as I have access to a laser cutter & water jet cutter as well as scraps of materials to use for construction. I'm using 14 holes with 3mm diameter, the 6mm padding on all sides & 3mm corners. I am planning on making the case sandwich style and I'm not really sure how thick I need the two middle pieces to be on the safe side. Any suggestions as well as any tips when I cut it?
The settings you are describing are pretty much exactly what I used (images posted recently to compare). I think 6mm padding for M3 screws works pretty well. The 3mm rounded corner with 6mm padding is pretty nice as well.
As for thickness of the middle plates, I think it depends a bit on how you plan to wire it up. Are you using teensy? You need to have enough space under the switches to fit a controller and the wiring. For my board (which I have not wired up yet, but looks like it will work fine), I used 4 layers of 0.15" (3.81mm). This gives me a total middle thickness of 0.6" (15.24mm). According to the cherry spec, the switch takes 8.5mm of space from the top of the switch. This means that it takes 7mm of space below a 1.5mm plate. the tallest part of a teensy is where the mini USB connector plugs into it. The mini USB connector is 4mm tall and the teensy PCB is probably about 1.5mm, so you are looking at about 6mm of space needed for the teensy (without wiggle room). So by my calculations, you need at least 14mm of middle layer to make everything fit inside...
As for suggestions when you cut it. You will want to do a test cut and measure the kerf of the cut and then enter that into the tool so the openings are the correct size. Let me know if you have questions and I can help you...
Thanks for the info man! Yeah I'll be using Teensy most likely. I enjoy how easy it is to use that little board~ I think I'll try to make it about 16-18mm just to be safe then.
...And it seems my construction has been delayed a little bit as I have been told by the lab techs in the machine shop not to use the machines for personal projects...(jerks) <~<
Maybe I'll go the Ponoko route like evera there. They have a pretty nice selection of material and maybe I could use wood or acryllic then. ^~^
Post by: swill on Wed, 29 April 2015, 09:11:07
Hey! So I've been lurking through this thread and I just wanted to get a few suggestions before I run off and build something with it!
I just want to make a simple 60% on the cheap with this as I have access to a laser cutter & water jet cutter as well as scraps of materials to use for construction. I'm using 14 holes with 3mm diameter, the 6mm padding on all sides & 3mm corners. I am planning on making the case sandwich style and I'm not really sure how thick I need the two middle pieces to be on the safe side. Any suggestions as well as any tips when I cut it?
The settings you are describing are pretty much exactly what I used (images posted recently to compare). I think 6mm padding for M3 screws works pretty well. The 3mm rounded corner with 6mm padding is pretty nice as well.
As for thickness of the middle plates, I think it depends a bit on how you plan to wire it up. Are you using teensy? You need to have enough space under the switches to fit a controller and the wiring. For my board (which I have not wired up yet, but looks like it will work fine), I used 4 layers of 0.15" (3.81mm). This gives me a total middle thickness of 0.6" (15.24mm). According to the cherry spec, the switch takes 8.5mm of space from the top of the switch. This means that it takes 7mm of space below a 1.5mm plate. the tallest part of a teensy is where the mini USB connector plugs into it. The mini USB connector is 4mm tall and the teensy PCB is probably about 1.5mm, so you are looking at about 6mm of space needed for the teensy (without wiggle room). So by my calculations, you need at least 14mm of middle layer to make everything fit inside...
As for suggestions when you cut it. You will want to do a test cut and measure the kerf of the cut and then enter that into the tool so the openings are the correct size. Let me know if you have questions and I can help you...
Thanks for the info man! Yeah I'll be using Teensy most likely. I enjoy how easy it is to use that little board~ I think I'll try to make it about 16-18mm just to be safe then.
...And it seems my construction has been delayed a little bit as I have been told by the lab techs in the machine shop not to use the machines for personal projects...(jerks) <~<
Maybe I'll go the Ponoko route like evera there. They have a pretty nice selection of material and maybe I could use wood or acryllic then. ^~^
careful using non-metals for your plate as you are likely to have issues with strength and durability.
Post by: swill on Wed, 29 April 2015, 09:11:58
Got my first acrylic swill plate laser cut (from ponoko.com)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bG6hLyV.jpg)
out of curiosity, what did it cost to cut that plate?
Post by: abjr on Wed, 29 April 2015, 11:02:35
Whiterice has a build log for a board with a 1.5mm acrylic plate here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61169.0.
I would suggest asking him about it, but he doesn't seem to be active lately, so I'll paraphrase a PM from him to me. Typing "feels less solid" sort of like "typing on a suspension", but that it didn't "hinder the operation of the keyboard".
I would guess 3mm might feel a bit more solid?
Post by: evera on Sat, 02 May 2015, 03:45:37
3mm is a bit difficult without a PCB because lining up the stabilizers is actually not that easy (costar stabilizers snap at 1.5mm and I'm not sure how far up to push the cherry PCB mounted stabs)
Post by: Fire Brand on Tue, 05 May 2015, 04:28:28
Post by: swill on Tue, 05 May 2015, 06:43:21
Hello swill just wanted to pick your brain because I'm a big derp would there be a easy way to add a cutout for a QFR controller as I'm trying to get a replacement plate for it sorry if this has been asked before, also great tool too even O can use it O.o
Unfortunately I don't support that case type yet. I have been having a hard time tracking down a universal TKL plate drawing I can use to validate the hole layout. I may just have to go to town on a plate with a caliper, but I have not had the time to do that yet. :(
Sorry dude, wish I had a better answer for you. I think MOZ has a TKL plate drawn that you could use. I don't remember if it is a Filco or a QFR, but JD linked it in here about 10 pages ago. haha... I can try to find it when I am not late for my train. :)
EDIT: I just found MOZ's tool and it builds a sandwich case (not a replacement tkl plate), so that is not going to help. Here are a couple relevant links (not helpful, but awesome work that needs more air time). :)
- simliar tool to mine for a TKL layout: http://www.moz.twisted-artworx.com/TKLCase/
- an awesome tkl case for the phanom by MOZ: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.msg1032605#msg1032605
Post by: Acanthophis on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:15:02
I put in the raw data from here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5)
Did no special options and selected 60% Poker plate.
Here's a pic of the tooled plate: http://i.imgur.com/QWUV2Wd.png
Post by: jonlorusso on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:20:12
Post by: Acanthophis on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:54:57
Post by: swill on Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:44:45
Hm, the tool doesn't work for me properly. I always get additional material above the plate for (to me) no apparent reason. Left shift is wrong as well. I'm not sure if the stepped capslock is right either.
I put in the raw data from here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5 (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5)
Did no special options and selected 60% Poker plate.
Here's a pic of the tooled plate: http://i.imgur.com/QWUV2Wd.png
As for the left shift being wrong, it is because your source layout is wrong. You have a few things that are a bit of a mess around there actually.
You have:
Code: [Select]
{w:1.5,w2:2.25},"Shift",{x:0.75},"Z",{x:-1},"Z\n\n\n\nDel",It should be:
Code: [Select]
{w:2.25},"Shift","Z\n\n\n\nDel",This layout should fix your problems: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8162c9efa7f9c33bbb7a2966fcf22df7
EDIT: I just tested this layout and it works...
Post by: swill on Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:55:19
And crap. I've been building towards a custom keyboard that fits in a TEX CNC case and my numbers don't line up to the ones on the site at all. Worst part is the 3d printed prototype totally fits, but I'm at least 3mm off of both Swill's and JD's numbers, and the effect is cumulative (I had to set the unit length to be 19.2 in order for there to not be a ton of slop). I got some tough decisions to make before I get a plate cut...
Hmmm, that's strange. Send me what you have, and I can check it for you. Maybe we can figure out what's going on.
Ya, I can take a look too. Just send us the files.
Hey thanks guys, it's much appreciated.
so I made a little album here:
http://imgur.com/a/vjZZI
the first image is the three plates, JDCarpe's DXF in the middle (which is reversed for some reason, but you can see the outline) and Swill's exported STL at the top. I've got around a 3mm difference on you guys, which sounds trivial, but it's across the whole board, so the further right screw holes don't line up at all. The plate I printed on my 3d printer fits the case though in both dimensions really well, which is a fair stroke of coincidence if the sizing is wrong, since the key units are still square - I just upped the side's length from 19.05 to 19.2 and slop on both sides of the plate disappeared perfectly.
The print also seems to be pretty dimensionally accurate, as I have the total length coming in at 288mm, and the case seems to be around 277.5mm or so in the third picture.
my designs aren't proprietary or anything so I'll attach the STL and SCAD here but if we want to continue this elsewhere in order to not gum up the thread that's fine too. Where did you get your numbers from JD? maybe the tex case has extra slop around the edges
Sorry for being MIA on this. Did you get it sorted out? I will review it tonight if you still have problems to see what the deal is.
Post by: jonlorusso on Thu, 07 May 2015, 18:34:26
Post by: tjweir on Fri, 08 May 2015, 09:46:53
Post by: go3001 on Sat, 09 May 2015, 05:38:08
I decided to build a custom from scratch when I saw the Gateron groupbuy on GH. Since I have no CAD skills I decided to use SwillKB.
I started putting it together today and noticed the stabilised keys get stuck when pressed. After close inspection and every combination of switch, wire holder, clip orientation and lubing I found that the keycap clip is sliding against the wire holder with a lot of force, the wire would also clip on the inside of keycap and holding it.
Found the universal plate groupbuy on GH and compared the designs, here are the results: http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp (http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp).
Also thank you for this service, I will definitely donate once it's fully built :thumb:
Post by: swill on Sat, 09 May 2015, 08:56:10
(x-post r/MK)Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?
I decided to build a custom from scratch when I saw the Gateron groupbuy on GH. Since I have no CAD skills I decided to use SwillKB.
I started putting it together today and noticed the stabilised keys get stuck when pressed. After close inspection and every combination of switch, wire holder, clip orientation and lubing I found that the keycap clip is sliding against the wire holder with a lot of force, the wire would also clip on the inside of keycap and holding it.
Found the universal plate groupbuy on GH and compared the designs, here are the results: http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp (http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp).
Also thank you for this service, I will definitely donate once it's fully built :thumb:
Post by: go3001 on Sat, 09 May 2015, 20:25:53
Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?
Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):
(http://puu.sh/hHG6w.jpg)
Stuck key:
(http://puu.sh/hHGbU.jpg)
Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:
(http://puu.sh/hHGdp.jpg)
Post by: neverused on Sat, 09 May 2015, 20:39:53
Post by: swill on Sat, 09 May 2015, 22:20:14
I had a similar issue with a 1.5 mm plate cut from acrylic with this tool. I did not adjust for kerf when submitting to ponoko and did it on a whim, but I just trimmed some the insert off and it worked just fine.Thanks for letting me know. Where did you trim?
Post by: swill on Sat, 09 May 2015, 22:21:11
Is this only for a costar stabilizer on the costar+cherry cutout or did I mid something?Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?
Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHG6w.jpg)
Stuck key:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHGbU.jpg)
Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHGdp.jpg)
Post by: go3001 on Sat, 09 May 2015, 23:11:24
Is this only for a costar stabilizer on the costar+cherry cutout or did I mid something?Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?
Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHG6w.jpg)
Stuck key:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHGbU.jpg)
Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hHGdp.jpg)
I don't have Cherry stabilisers to test with. Just got back from buying sand paper, will let you know soon how it turns out
Post by: go3001 on Sun, 10 May 2015, 00:08:10
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 11 May 2015, 03:00:24
With Costar only stabilisers and standard cutouts for an 60% case
I'm not sure what plate rounding and Kerf I should use
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)
I would really appreciate some suggestions
(the main reason I want the plates is because I don't like the standard plates of the infinity keyboard, the Cherry+Costar stabs are not optimal for Costar stabs, the alps+cherry cutouts leave too much of a wiggle space and result in crooked switches)
Post by: TD22057 on Mon, 11 May 2015, 21:45:31
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)
I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness. I'm curious what materials people are using as well. It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest. And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet? I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for.
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 11 May 2015, 23:11:16
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)
I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness. I'm curious what materials people are using as well. It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest. And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet? I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for.
I also figured 0.06" was as close to optimal as many options get, with 0.059" being a better option, the added minor height from 0.06" might cause cause stabs/switches to not latch (?)
I don't know much about the manufacturing routines, but even the slightest imperfections cause a lot of issues, as they prevent the switch from symmetrically latching on, or cause stab issues as go3001 experienced, that's why I want to learn about the experience of others before I decide to attempt it myself (or If I'm going to attempt it at all)
I was thinking of 0.06 316 stainless steel, however I didn't check the pricing
The infinity plates have 304 stainless steel, they are beautiful, yet the first batch had manufacturing impurities, they also lack the 6th 60% hole and have cherry+costar stabs + alps+cherry cutouts, I really don't like cherry+costar stabs or alps+cherry cutouts, they cause issues similar to what go3001 is experiencing
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:11:57
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
[attachimg=1]
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:17:19
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)
I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness. I'm curious what materials people are using as well. It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest. And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet? I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for.
I also figured 0.06" was as close to optimal as many options get, with 0.059" being a better option, the added minor height from 0.06" might cause cause stabs/switches to not latch (?)
I don't know much about the manufacturing routines, but even the slightest imperfections cause a lot of issues, as they prevent the switch from symmetrically latching on, or cause stab issues as go3001 experienced, that's why I want to learn about the experience of others before I decide to attempt it myself (or If I'm going to attempt it at all)
I was thinking of 0.06 316 stainless steel, however I didn't check the pricing
The infinity plates have 304 stainless steel, they are beautiful, yet the first batch had manufacturing impurities, they also lack the 6th 60% hole and have cherry+costar stabs + alps+cherry cutouts, I really don't like cherry+costar stabs or alps+cherry cutouts, they cause issues similar to what go3001 is experiencing
Yes, 0.06" works, but you can't do any thicker than that or the switches won't clip in.
Most people use aluminium. I would say about 70% of people use aluminum. The remaining 29.9% use stainless steel. I am the 0.01% that used brass...
Check my notes in the previous post regarding the Cherry + Costar stabilizer cutout. I will try to fix that later this week and I will update the thread when it is fixed.
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:18:58
I'm thinking of getting this produced: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a9cea133f37d9c76602dffb7257f49ef (6 of it)
With Costar only stabilisers and standard cutouts for an 60% case
I'm not sure what plate rounding and Kerf I should use
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)
I would really appreciate some suggestions
(the main reason I want the plates is because I don't like the standard plates of the infinity keyboard, the Cherry+Costar stabs are not optimal for Costar stabs, the alps+cherry cutouts leave too much of a wiggle space and result in crooked switches)
Sorry, I don't support alps stabilizers yet. :(
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:22:14
I spent a bunch of time last night working on a way to give people the ability to modify the shape of their 'rounded' corners.
Here is a teaser. The number represents the number of segments used to make the corner.
[attach=1] [attach=2] [attach=3] ... [attach=4]
Post by: LeandreN on Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:32:58
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Is this bug for the Costar only plate?
I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.
Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
(Attachment Link)
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:07:14
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Is this bug for the Costar only plate?
I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.
Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
(Attachment Link)
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have. I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
Post by: LeandreN on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:11:11
I have done costar only, they work great!It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Is this bug for the Costar only plate?
I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.
Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
(Attachment Link)
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have. I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:15:11
Maybe let me tweak that cutout before you order so you will have more confidence in that piece before you order? When are you planning to out the order in?I have done costar only, they work great!It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Is this bug for the Costar only plate?
I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.
Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
(Attachment Link)
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have. I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/
Post by: LeandreN on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:20:29
I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.Maybe let me tweak that cutout before you order so you will have more confidence in that piece before you order? When are you planning to out the order in?I have done costar only, they work great!It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now
Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hI4Rt.png)
Source: WASD
BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
Is this bug for the Costar only plate?
I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.
Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out. I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.
So this is what is causing the problem:
(Attachment Link)
The red box shows where the problem is coming from. Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image). Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece. Thank you for pointing this out. This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout. I will adjust my drawing to fix this.
Thanks again for pointing this out. :)
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have. I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/
If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:24:43
I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.
If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.
Alright, let me know how your tests go, but I suspect that a bit of tweaking may be needed for your samples. I have a keyboard here I got cut, so I will do a bunch of testing. I will take a file to it and see if I can come up with some good adaptations to that cutout. I will let you know when I have updated the code.
EDIT: BTW, how are you getting your plates cut by?
Post by: LeandreN on Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:27:07
I will! Won't get my Cherry Stabs before next week though. I will test everything else in the meantime. :)I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.
If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.
Alright, let me know how your tests go, but I suspect that a bit of tweaking may be needed for your samples. I have a keyboard here I got cut, so I will do a bunch of testing. I will take a file to it and see if I can come up with some good adaptations to that cutout. I will let you know when I have updated the code.
EDIT: BTW, how are you getting your plates cut by?
Post by: LeandreN on Tue, 12 May 2015, 15:14:27
Here is a picture of one of the samples: http://i.imgur.com/DgnqOFn.png.
Post by: skullydazed on Wed, 13 May 2015, 08:27:48
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65189.0;attach=100333;image)
However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 11:27:52
OK. I am getting conflicting reports on this, but to me that says that the tolerances are too tight. I will adapt both cutouts a bit to accommodate. Thx for letting me know.It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65189.0;attach=100333;image)
However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
Post by: LeandreN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:44:31
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).
L
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:47:20
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).
L
Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?
Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move
Post by: LeandreN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:49:05
Will test it again. I just want to know if the problem earlier in this thread apply to me. ThanksHey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).
L
Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?
Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:57:49
On a WASD V2, the costar stab insert moves in the middle, on my infinity keyboard, the cherry+costar one works well, but only when you push the stab base to the furthest point, so it's a pretty close call
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 14:52:34
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).
L
Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?
Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move
I will test this as well on my plate tonight. My plate is 1.6mm thick, so that could also play into this. I will do some more testing to see.
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 14:54:32
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 15:37:48
BTW, I just wanted to give a big shoutout to everyone who is helping me with this testing. I really appreciate all your feedback. :)
Well, thank you for the builder, it opens up a lot of possibilities
I was thinking of getting plates manufactured, but I'm also thinking about 3d printing them now, an 60% plate might just fit my 3d printer if it's turned 45 degrees, or I might just cut it in two and combine it later on, somehow
You might also benefit from a 3d printer significantly, you could've fixed this issue in an hour, with 4-5 retries/experiments
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 15:40:59
Just can't justify buying one. My wife already thinks (rightfully) that I spend too much time/money on this hobby. :)BTW, I just wanted to give a big shoutout to everyone who is helping me with this testing. I really appreciate all your feedback. :)
Well, thank you for the builder, it opens up a lot of possibilities
I was thinking of getting plates manufactured, but I'm also thinking about 3d printing them now, an 60% plate might just fit my 3d printer if it's turned 45 degrees, or I might just cut it in two and combine it later on, somehow
You might also benefit from a 3d printer significantly, you could've fixed this issue in an hour, with 4-5 retries/experiments
Post by: LeandreN on Wed, 13 May 2015, 16:15:45
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 18:06:04
I have a 1,5mm plate. But which plate did they problem occur? Cherry+costar, cherry only or costar only? And with which stab?Cherry+Costar cutout with costar stab. I have a suspicion that it is hard to clip in the stab correctly which results in this. JD said he had issues getting the costar stab to clip into his cutout without some persuasion, so I suspect this may also apply to my cutout. I will do more tests later tonight.
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 May 2015, 22:17:19
Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly. I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points. I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.
It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me. I really appreciate it. :)
Post by: trauring on Thu, 14 May 2015, 01:40:22
Speaking of the open pieces, could you add an option to set the location of the opening? Even just left third, center and right third would be nice.
I noticed the discussion about the stabs above. I'm planning on making my first place out of 3mm acrylic. Obviously the switches don't clip in properly, but it works on the ErgoDox so I figure it can work for a first-attempt here as well. My question is if any kind of stabs work in a 3mm plate?
Thanks.
Post by: LeandreN on Thu, 14 May 2015, 04:22:47
I did a bunch more tests tonight. I have confirmed that both PCB and Plate mounted cherry switches work well in the Cherry + Costar cutout. I have reconfirmed that there is an issue with the Costar stabilizer in that cutout. I think part of my problem is that I have a 1.6mm plate and it seems that Costar stabs will not clip into a 1.6mm plate. It is close, but it does not feel like it is clicking in. If I just put downward (towards the front of the keyboard) pressure on the bottom side of the stabilizer, the top side will pop out.Okay. The clip is perfectly fit with my 1,5mm plate. The 2u stabs doesn't do so well, but I think it might be a faulty stab. The keycap hits the wire and get stuck.
Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly. I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points. I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.
It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me. I really appreciate it. :)
Post by: trauring on Thu, 14 May 2015, 06:24:36
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 May 2015, 08:57:29
I did a bunch more tests tonight. I have confirmed that both PCB and Plate mounted cherry switches work well in the Cherry + Costar cutout. I have reconfirmed that there is an issue with the Costar stabilizer in that cutout. I think part of my problem is that I have a 1.6mm plate and it seems that Costar stabs will not clip into a 1.6mm plate. It is close, but it does not feel like it is clicking in. If I just put downward (towards the front of the keyboard) pressure on the bottom side of the stabilizer, the top side will pop out.Okay. The clip is perfectly fit with my 1,5mm plate. The 2u stabs doesn't do so well, but I think it might be a faulty stab. The keycap hits the wire and get stuck.
Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly. I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points. I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.
It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me. I really appreciate it. :)
I will adjust the cutout a bit (hopefully tonight) which should help this... Thx for reconfirming...
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 May 2015, 09:03:40
When designing sandwich plates I find that the screw holes are too close to the edge of the plates. How are the hole placements calculated? I assume it has something to do with distance from the closest switch, and it has to be in the middle of the center of the open and closed middle pieces. If that was the case though, I don't think it would be showing up as close to the edge as it does in my designs.
Speaking of the open pieces, could you add an option to set the location of the opening? Even just left third, center and right third would be nice.
I noticed the discussion about the stabs above. I'm planning on making my first place out of 3mm acrylic. Obviously the switches don't clip in properly, but it works on the ErgoDox so I figure it can work for a first-attempt here as well. My question is if any kind of stabs work in a 3mm plate?
Thanks.
The holes are placed at half the padding width. I am using M3 screws in my plate and I used 6mm padding (since the head of the screw is 5.5mm wide). If you want more space, make the x and y padding larger and the screw hole will be placed in the center of the specified padding.
I have been thinking of adding a way to change the position of the USB opening (and it size), but I had not figured out how to let the user select the positioning in an understandable way. I will review this again when I have a chance...
If you are using a 3mm acrylic plate you MUST use a PCB. Also, your only option for stabilizers is Cherry PCB mount stabilizers. I am not sure how the PCB will be held below the plate though. I have only seen 5mm acrylic plates when they are not 1.5mm because 5mm takes up the full space between the PCB and the plate. I don't have experience with this, so I am not going to have much guidance...
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 May 2015, 09:08:09
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
As for a good resource, I would checkout the DXF files in the CAD Resources thread. Otherwise it is pretty hit and miss. I actually drew my own cutouts because I could not find any consensus in the available resources. I did my cutouts based on the cherry spec, but adapted it for the combined Cherry + Costar cutout (which I will be changing a bit soon).
For my plate, I used brass for the top and bottom and wood in he middle. I know most people use aluminum for the top and bottom and maybe acrylic in the middle. Stainless steel is also pretty common for the top and bottom plates.
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 15 May 2015, 00:03:43
The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:OK. I am getting conflicting reports on this, but to me that says that the tolerances are too tight. I will adapt both cutouts a bit to accommodate. Thx for letting me know.Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65189.0;attach=100333;image)
However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
N/p, thanks for such a great tool. Tolerances being too tight makes a lot of sense as I painted my plate, which would add just a tiny bit more thickness.
Post by: LeandreN on Fri, 15 May 2015, 03:16:39
Thanks!
Post by: trauring on Fri, 15 May 2015, 10:21:29
For my plate, I used brass for the top and bottom and wood in he middle. I know most people use aluminum for the top and bottom and maybe acrylic in the middle. Stainless steel is also pretty common for the top and bottom plates.
How thick were your brass and wood layers respectively? Can you post a picture of an assembled keyboard?QuoteIf you are using a 3mm acrylic plate you MUST use a PCB. Also, your only option for stabilizers is Cherry PCB mount stabilizers. I am not sure how the PCB will be held below the plate though. I have only seen 5mm acrylic plates when they are not 1.5mm because 5mm takes up the full space between the PCB and the plate. I don't have experience with this, so I am not going to have much guidance...
Luckily I have some PCB-mount Cherry stabs on order from a recent group buy. Speaking of PCBs, is the next step to output a file that can be used to create the PCB?
Post by: LeandreN on Fri, 15 May 2015, 16:08:09
Pictures: http://imgur.com/a/0zHec
EDIT: after hitting it a bit, it is much better, but i don't know how it is supposed to feel. pretty heavy still..
LeandreN
Post by: Spopepro on Fri, 15 May 2015, 17:28:05
When designing sandwich plates I find that the screw holes are too close to the edge of the plates. How are the hole placements calculated? I assume it has something to do with distance from the closest switch, and it has to be in the middle of the center of the open and closed middle pieces. If that was the case though, I don't think it would be showing up as close to the edge as it does in my designs.
Speaking of the open pieces, could you add an option to set the location of the opening? Even just left third, center and right third would be nice.
I noticed the discussion about the stabs above. I'm planning on making my first place out of 3mm acrylic. Obviously the switches don't clip in properly, but it works on the ErgoDox so I figure it can work for a first-attempt here as well. My question is if any kind of stabs work in a 3mm plate?
Thanks.
The holes are placed at half the padding width. I am using M3 screws in my plate and I used 6mm padding (since the head of the screw is 5.5mm wide). If you want more space, make the x and y padding larger and the screw hole will be placed in the center of the specified padding.
I have been thinking of adding a way to change the position of the USB opening (and it size), but I had not figured out how to let the user select the positioning in an understandable way. I will review this again when I have a chance...
If you are using a 3mm acrylic plate you MUST use a PCB. Also, your only option for stabilizers is Cherry PCB mount stabilizers. I am not sure how the PCB will be held below the plate though. I have only seen 5mm acrylic plates when they are not 1.5mm because 5mm takes up the full space between the PCB and the plate. I don't have experience with this, so I am not going to have much guidance...
I disagree--Costar stabs work well, but you must have near perfect alignment and openings. I'm typing on a 3mm acrylic plate keyboard with costar stabs*. Most worked just fine, but a few caught, much like described here, so I took the dremel and chamfered the underside edge just a little bit and everything was great. Yep, they pop out easy, but they stay put while typing.
*the plan was to use cherry stabs, but I soldered everything up before remembering that the stabs go first... so costar it was.
Post by: swill on Fri, 15 May 2015, 17:31:15
Swill, i tested the plate today, and the Costar stabs on both my 1,5 mm plates Costar + Cherry stabs, is a little slow and sticky. BUT IT ONLY APPEARS at the 2u stabilizer keys, not the spacebar. I cannot find the problem on the plate itself, it is just sticky, and very inconsistent. I want to know; when will you fix this, and how sure are you that you fix will fix my stabilisers? I don't have time or money to sample one more time. Thanks for your time!I will try to do the update tonight. I am very confident in the cutout shape since it will be very similar to jd's proven cutout.
Pictures: http://imgur.com/a/0zHec
EDIT: after hitting it a bit, it is much better, but i don't know how it is supposed to feel. pretty heavy still..
LeandreN
Post by: swill on Fri, 15 May 2015, 22:55:18
The net result of what I did is basically give the top stabilizer upright for Costar stabilizers another 0.15mm of space to work with.
Here is a scale drawing based on LeandreN's drawing and some measuring with a caliper (I had already done this once with my tests, so his pictures and the ones previously in the thread confirmed it).
[attachimg=1]
It happens to turn out that both of these drawings end up matching JD's drawing almost perfectly now. He said he is pretty happy with his drawing, so that is also a vote of confidence in these cutouts now.
Here are the all 3 drawings superimposed on each other.
Costar Only (updated)
Cherry + Costar (updated)
jdcarpe's cutout (grey)
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 16 May 2015, 00:00:14
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
Post by: swill on Sat, 16 May 2015, 08:32:40
Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.You could always do the layout of the two together in a free cad program before sending the job to BBS.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
Post by: LeandreN on Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:05:13
Hopefully it doesn't mess up anything else, but it really shouldn't.
Post by: swill on Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:27:47
Thanks for all the help Swill. I will jump on your new design and add a note in the GB that Costar may not work.I am pretty confident in the costar support now. :)
Hopefully it doesn't mess up anything else, but it really shouldn't.
Post by: LeandreN on Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:28:12
Awesome!Thanks for all the help Swill. I will jump on your new design and add a note in the GB that Costar may not work.I am pretty confident in the costar support now. :)
Hopefully it doesn't mess up anything else, but it really shouldn't.
Post by: swill on Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:32:43
Just be sure to redraw now that the new code is online. As long as its the new cutout as of last night, you should be all set.Awesome!Thanks for all the help Swill. I will jump on your new design and add a note in the GB that Costar may not work.I am pretty confident in the costar support now. :)
Hopefully it doesn't mess up anything else, but it really shouldn't.
What layout are you doing for your GB? Gotta link to it?
Ws
Post by: LeandreN on Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:34:20
Just be sure to redraw now that the new code is online. As long as its the new cutout as of last night, you should be all set.Awesome!Thanks for all the help Swill. I will jump on your new design and add a note in the GB that Costar may not work.I am pretty confident in the costar support now. :)
Hopefully it doesn't mess up anything else, but it really shouldn't.
What layout are you doing for your GB? Gotta link to it?
Ws
I will redraw later :)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.0
:)
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 16 May 2015, 13:02:30
Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.You could always do the layout of the two together in a free cad program before sending the job to BBS.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
Yes, I will learn how to do that eventually. Right now every time I try I get frustrated by everything I don't know, and give up. Both libreCad and DraftSight are non-intuitive to me, and I haven't had the several hours of unbroken free time to get over that hurdle.
Post by: LeandreN on Sat, 16 May 2015, 13:03:34
Have you tried FreeCAD?Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.You could always do the layout of the two together in a free cad program before sending the job to BBS.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
Yes, I will learn how to do that eventually. Right now every time I try I get frustrated by everything I don't know, and give up. Both libreCad and DraftSight are non-intuitive to me, and I haven't had the several hours of unbroken free time to get over that hurdle.
Post by: swill on Sat, 16 May 2015, 13:10:17
I am using freecad and it is not too bad. Reasonable docs as well once you get into it a bit. Be sure to use the 'draft' workspace and you should have everything you need.Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.You could always do the layout of the two together in a free cad program before sending the job to BBS.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
Yes, I will learn how to do that eventually. Right now every time I try I get frustrated by everything I don't know, and give up. Both libreCad and DraftSight are non-intuitive to me, and I haven't had the several hours of unbroken free time to get over that hurdle.
Let me know if you have questions if you do start playing with it, I am pretty confident in there now.
Its funny, I built this tool so I didn't have to learn cad to build my plates. As a result I am getting better at cad. Haha.
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 16 May 2015, 20:35:11
I am using freecad and it is not too bad. Reasonable docs as well once you get into it a bit. Be sure to use the 'draft' workspace and you should have everything you need.
Let me know if you have questions if you do start playing with it, I am pretty confident in there now.
Its funny, I built this tool so I didn't have to learn cad to build my plates. As a result I am getting better at cad. Haha.
What's even funnier is that's exactly the sort of thing I'd do. If you had the source code up somewhere and I had a free weekend I'd probably take a stab at adding the feature myself. I already spend my days writing python for work. :)
I'll check FreeCAD out, it'd be nice to put together some real drawings for some of the things I want to do. I have an idea for a case design I haven't seen done yet.
Post by: njbair on Sat, 16 May 2015, 20:50:25
I am using freecad and it is not too bad. Reasonable docs as well once you get into it a bit. Be sure to use the 'draft' workspace and you should have everything you need.
Let me know if you have questions if you do start playing with it, I am pretty confident in there now.
Its funny, I built this tool so I didn't have to learn cad to build my plates. As a result I am getting better at cad. Haha.
What's even funnier is that's exactly the sort of thing I'd do. If you had the source code up somewhere and I had a free weekend I'd probably take a stab at adding the feature myself. I already spend my days writing python for work. :)
I'll check FreeCAD out, it'd be nice to put together some real drawings for some of the things I want to do. I have an idea for a case design I haven't seen done yet.
FreeCAD's sketcher module is a really good way to approach 3D, but it's not necessarily intuitive. But stick with it, it's worth learning.
Post by: derezzed on Sat, 16 May 2015, 23:20:06
Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
With LibreCAD, you can have both plates in a single file quite easily.
[attach=1]
I used your link to the keyboard layout editor in two different tabs and isolated each half of your design. Then I pasted the results into swill's plate builder and saved as DXF. I followed swill's instructions for setting the main drawing unit as millimeters, and saving the files as Drawing Exchange DXF 2007 files. Then, in one of the LibreCAD instances, I clicked File>Import>Block, navigated to the folder where the dxf files are and selected the dxf file for the other half of the keyboard. LibreCAD puts an outline of the new object with crosshairs in the drawing window. I just moved it close to the existing plate and left-clicked the mouse to place the imported plate. Hit the escape key to get out of that mode, or move the outline somewhere else and left-click the mouse to place another copy of the imported object. You can even import an object from the current drawing into itself by selecting the currently open file from the Import dialog box.
[attach=2]
You can hit some decent economies of scale by having several plates in a single drawing versus having a single plate. Just make sure you only include plates that all have the same thickness. BBS won't be able to cut a 3mm thick base plate from the same file as a 1.5mm switch plate. Now that I think about it though, I wonder if a decent price break could be achieved by adding two 1.5mm thick base plates to a file with a 1.5mm thick switch plate would be cheaper than having a separate file for a 3mm thick base plate. I'll have to research that.
*edit*
I just did a price comparison on BBS. The cost to make a sandwich case from a single file that has 2 bottom plates, 1 switch plate, 4 open layers, and 4 closed layers is $197.90 for 1.5mm stainless. The cost to make just a switch plate from 1.5mm stainless and a bottom plate from 3mm stainless (2 separate drawings, by necessity) costs $184.90. The first example has the middle layers made of stainless, whereas, many examples I've seen use acrylic for the middle layers. I didn't bother to calculate the cost of the middle layers for the second example because I'm certain they can't be produced for $13 (the difference between an entire case cut from a single sheet and two plates cut from 2 different sheets of steel).
The cost to cut two 1.5mm bottom plates (stacked to make a 3mm base) and one 1.5mm switch plate using a single drawing is $98.30. I haven't had any experience with buying cases yet, but $98 seems to me like a compelling price for a one-off open case when prototyping. Of course, this presupposes that the bottom plates will be flat enough to stack together without any warping that would produce an unstable base.
[attach=3]
Post by: OverKill on Mon, 18 May 2015, 12:21:55
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65189.0;attach=100333;image)
However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
I would just like to point out, it looks like you have the plastic inserts for the stabilizer in backwards in the keycap. Notice how the plastic inserts are offset to one side; also notice how the gap on the right is about the same as the overlap on the left that you are pointing out. Try flipping the plastic inserts around.
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 18 May 2015, 12:31:02
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/costar-stabilizer-plate-measurements-t5872.html) for it. That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.
The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65189.0;attach=100333;image)
However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
I would just like to point out, it looks like you have the plastic inserts for the stabilizer in backwards in the keycap. Notice how the plastic inserts are offset to one side; also notice how the gap on the right is about the same as the overlap on the left that you are pointing out. Try flipping the plastic inserts around.
It's inserted in the correct side, it should look away from the wire
He also said he tried the other way around and it was worse
By the way, since a lot of people reported similar issues with the infinitykb, is it because the same calculations were used?
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 18 May 2015, 13:05:37
I see how to rotate cutouts, but how do I rotate 2x cutouts? For example, the Enter and + switches on a number pad?
I see no change in any version of {h:2},"Enter", {h:2,_r:180},"Enter" or {h:2},{_r:180},"Enter", {_r:180,h:2},"Enter".
Is there a combination that should rotate a 2x vertical cutout so that the top of the switch points to the left?
Thanks in advance!
- Ron | samwisekoi
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 18 May 2015, 16:48:54
Awesome tool! I just tried it for the GH36, and I have a question.
I see how to rotate cutouts, but how do I rotate 2x cutouts? For example, the Enter and + switches on a number pad?
I see no change in any version of {h:2},"Enter", {h:2,_r:180},"Enter" or {h:2},{_r:180},"Enter", {_r:180,h:2},"Enter".
Is there a combination that should rotate a 2x vertical cutout so that the top of the switch points to the left?
Thanks in advance!
- Ron | samwisekoi
The plate builder doesn't do rotation (yet?) which is probably why you're having problems. I think your best option is to do it mirrored then flip the cut plate over - not sure what options you're using so try this :)
Code: [Select]
["","","","","",""],
["","","","","",""],
[{h:2},"","","","","",""],
[{x:1},"","","","",""],
[{h:2},"","","","","",""],
[{x:1},"",{w:2},"",{w:2},""]
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:36:51
But, yes, unimplemented features rarely work!
Thanks again,
- Ron | samwisekoi
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 18 May 2015, 20:34:51
Thanks for the updates tonight, I just sent BBS an order for the darkstar keyboard mk2.
One thing about a split keyboard design is that I have to create two files so I end up paying the setup fee twice. It'd be awesome if a future version of this tool had the ability to put both halves of the split keyboard onto the same drawing.
With LibreCAD, you can have both plates in a single file quite easily.
(Attachment Link)
I used your link to the keyboard layout editor in two different tabs and isolated each half of your design. Then I pasted the results into swill's plate builder and saved as DXF. I followed swill's instructions for setting the main drawing unit as millimeters, and saving the files as Drawing Exchange DXF 2007 files. Then, in one of the LibreCAD instances, I clicked File>Import>Block, navigated to the folder where the dxf files are and selected the dxf file for the other half of the keyboard. LibreCAD puts an outline of the new object with crosshairs in the drawing window. I just moved it close to the existing plate and left-clicked the mouse to place the imported plate. Hit the escape key to get out of that mode, or move the outline somewhere else and left-click the mouse to place another copy of the imported object. You can even import an object from the current drawing into itself by selecting the currently open file from the Import dialog box.
(Attachment Link)
You can hit some decent economies of scale by having several plates in a single drawing versus having a single plate. Just make sure you only include plates that all have the same thickness. BBS won't be able to cut a 3mm thick base plate from the same file as a 1.5mm switch plate. Now that I think about it though, I wonder if a decent price break could be achieved by adding two 1.5mm thick base plates to a file with a 1.5mm thick switch plate would be cheaper than having a separate file for a 3mm thick base plate. I'll have to research that.
*edit*
I just did a price comparison on BBS. The cost to make a sandwich case from a single file that has 2 bottom plates, 1 switch plate, 4 open layers, and 4 closed layers is $197.90 for 1.5mm stainless. The cost to make just a switch plate from 1.5mm stainless and a bottom plate from 3mm stainless (2 separate drawings, by necessity) costs $184.90. The first example has the middle layers made of stainless, whereas, many examples I've seen use acrylic for the middle layers. I didn't bother to calculate the cost of the middle layers for the second example because I'm certain they can't be produced for $13 (the difference between an entire case cut from a single sheet and two plates cut from 2 different sheets of steel).
The cost to cut two 1.5mm bottom plates (stacked to make a 3mm base) and one 1.5mm switch plate using a single drawing is $98.30. I haven't had any experience with buying cases yet, but $98 seems to me like a compelling price for a one-off open case when prototyping. Of course, this presupposes that the bottom plates will be flat enough to stack together without any warping that would produce an unstable base.
(Attachment Link)
This is very cool. Thank you for putting together step by step instructions, I will definitely be doing this for the next plate I order. I'd like to think my current plate on order will be my last, but I know I will have to make at least one more revision.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 19 May 2015, 02:53:05
Thanks. I can also just rotate the shape in CAD, but the big question mark said I could rotate, so I tried to do so. And then assumed it was pilot error when it didn't work.That'll teach me to look who asked the question - I couldn't flip it in CAD (well, give me 5 mins...) but this is hardly your first project :))
But, yes, unimplemented features rarely work!
Thanks again,
- Ron | samwisekoi
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 19 May 2015, 09:32:34
UPDATE: Fix for Costar and Cherry + Costar stabilizers has been implemented...
The net result of what I did is basically give the top stabilizer upright for Costar stabilizers another 0.15mm of space to work with.
Here is a scale drawing based on LeandreN's drawing and some measuring with a caliper (I had already done this once with my tests, so his pictures and the ones previously in the thread confirmed it).
(Attachment Link)
It happens to turn out that both of these drawings end up matching JD's drawing almost perfectly now. He said he is pretty happy with his drawing, so that is also a vote of confidence in these cutouts now.
Here are the all 3 drawings superimposed on each other.
Costar Only (updated)
Cherry + Costar (updated)
jdcarpe's cutout (grey)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I'm probably confused, but, from the pictures, it seems the insert cutouts are pulled back, while they should be pushed just a little bit further?
The wire is on the front of the switch, the cutout is inserted so the large part is looking away, the large part touches the end of the insert, which is the problem, so shouldn't the cutouts pushed away just a bit?
From the outlines, it looks as if they are pulled front instead of being pushed back
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 10:29:14
Awesome tool! I just tried it for the GH36, and I have a question.
I see how to rotate cutouts, but how do I rotate 2x cutouts? For example, the Enter and + switches on a number pad?
I see no change in any version of {h:2},"Enter", {h:2,_r:180},"Enter" or {h:2},{_r:180},"Enter", {_r:180,h:2},"Enter".
Is there a combination that should rotate a 2x vertical cutout so that the top of the switch points to the left?
Thanks in advance!
- Ron | samwisekoi
The plate builder doesn't do rotation (yet?) which is probably why you're having problems. I think your best option is to do it mirrored then flip the cut plate over - not sure what options you're using so try this :)Code: [Select]["","","","","",""],
["","","","","",""],
[{h:2},"","","","","",""],
[{x:1},"","","","",""],
[{h:2},"","","","","",""],
[{x:1},"",{w:2},"",{w:2},""]
This is not true. I do not support rotating key clusters (like the thumb cluster of the ergodox). However rotating the switches and stabilizers independently and together (around its center) it fully supported... I will reply to Ron to explain...
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 10:46:53
Awesome tool! I just tried it for the GH36, and I have a question.
I see how to rotate cutouts, but how do I rotate 2x cutouts? For example, the Enter and + switches on a number pad?
I see no change in any version of {h:2},"Enter", {h:2,_r:180},"Enter" or {h:2},{_r:180},"Enter", {_r:180,h:2},"Enter".
Is there a combination that should rotate a 2x vertical cutout so that the top of the switch points to the left?
Thanks in advance!
- Ron | samwisekoi
I see you are using the _r flag to rotate the 'switch' upside down (which actually does nothing because they cutout does not change with 180º rotation.
Here are the types of things you can do:
Additional Features
The following features can be applied by modifying the source copied from the keyboard layout editor. All of these features are applied to individual keys by adding or modifying the object before the key. EG: rotate switch for "Enter" would be done by entering {_r:90},"Enter".
{_t:<0-2>}: Change switch cutout type. Numbers are in the same order as the images. EG: {_t:0},""
{_s:<0-2>}: Change stabilizer cutout type. Numbers are in the same order as the dropdown list. EG: {_s:2},""
{_k:<mm>}: Specify a kerf value for this specific switch/stabilizer cutout which overrides the default. Values are in mm (without the unit). EG: {_k:0.05},""
{_r:<degrees>}: Rotate the switch cutout independent of the stabilizer cutout (assuming there is one). EG: {_r:90},""
{_rs:<degrees>}: Rotate the stabilizer cutout independent of the switch cutout. EG: {_rs:180},""
What does this mean???
So for example, if you have a vertical key {h:2}, it will default to rotating both the switch and the stabilizer by 90º around the center.
Lets say you want the switch to not be rotated and be in the same orientation as the other switches on the board, you can use the {h:2, _r:90} flag. Which would result in the following:
[attach=1]
Another option is to rotate the stabilizer independently of the switch. This is mainly if you want to change the orientation of the stabilizer to face the other way. So again, with a {h:2} key, you can rotate the stabilizer to face the other way without changing the orientation of the switch with: {h:2, _rs:180} This would result in:
[attach=2]
You can of course combine the two to flip the stabilizer cutout as well as rotate the switch by 90º. This would be done with: {h:2, _r:90, _rs:180} This would result in:
[attach=3]
Everything I just explained applies to non-vertical switches as well. Let me know if you have questions. I may be a bit slow as I am on vacation right now. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 10:51:41
UPDATE: Fix for Costar and Cherry + Costar stabilizers has been implemented...
The net result of what I did is basically give the top stabilizer upright for Costar stabilizers another 0.15mm of space to work with.
Here is a scale drawing based on LeandreN's drawing and some measuring with a caliper (I had already done this once with my tests, so his pictures and the ones previously in the thread confirmed it).
(Attachment Link)
It happens to turn out that both of these drawings end up matching JD's drawing almost perfectly now. He said he is pretty happy with his drawing, so that is also a vote of confidence in these cutouts now.
Here are the all 3 drawings superimposed on each other.
Costar Only (updated)
Cherry + Costar (updated)
jdcarpe's cutout (grey)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I'm probably confused, but, from the pictures, it seems the insert cutouts are pulled back, while they should be pushed just a little bit further?
The wire is on the front of the switch, the cutout is inserted so the large part is looking away, the large part touches the end of the insert, which is the problem, so shouldn't the cutouts pushed away just a bit?
From the outlines, it looks as if they are pulled front instead of being pushed back
I think there are some issues with things not clipping in perfectly on 1.6mm. Not sure about this for sure. I only have a 1.6mm and it does not feel like it clips in perfectly due to the thickness. So yes, I think your observations are partially to blame. I think my fix will make it work with 1.6mm plates as well.
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 19 May 2015, 11:18:29
So to rephrase to ensure I understand, my problem was that I rotated the bilaterally-symmetrical SWITCH cutout 180 degrees (accomplishing nothing) INSIDE the UNROTATED stabilizer cutout.
But what I really wanted to do was leave the switch cutout alone and rotate the STABILIZER cutout.
Testing now...
Yes! This code:
Code: [Select]
["1","2","3","4","5","6"],
["1","2","3","4","5","6"],
["1","2","3","4","5",{h:2},"6"],
["1","2","3","4","5"],
["1","2","3","4","5",{h:2,_rs:180},"6"],
["1","2",{w:2},"3","5"]
Gives this result:
[attach=1]
I call that a successful rotation!
Thank you very much!
- Ron | samwisekoi
Auto-typed by my JD45 keyboard.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 19 May 2015, 14:41:48
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 19:27:34
Ah. Thank you very much!Glad you got it working as you wanted. :)
So to rephrase to ensure I understand, my problem was that I rotated the bilaterally-symmetrical SWITCH cutout 180 degrees (accomplishing nothing) INSIDE the UNROTATED stabilizer cutout.
But what I really wanted to do was leave the switch cutout alone and rotate the STABILIZER cutout.
Testing now...
Yes! This code:Code: [Select]["1","2","3","4","5","6"],
["1","2","3","4","5","6"],
["1","2","3","4","5",{h:2},"6"],
["1","2","3","4","5"],
["1","2","3","4","5",{h:2,_rs:180},"6"],
["1","2",{w:2},"3","5"]
Gives this result:
(Attachment Link)
I call that a successful rotation!
Thank you very much!
- Ron | samwisekoi
Auto-typed by my JD45 keyboard.
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 19:45:16
So should arbitrary rotations also work? I tried a complicated split board with parts at 30 and -30 rotation and it just turned out a mess, half of it wasn't even on the plate :))So the switch (and/or stabilizer) can be rotated around its center, but the space it takes up on the plate is not changed by the rotation. So in short. Yes, you can use an arbitrary rotation, but the plate size will not adapt appropriately.
I am looking into adding true rotational key clusters, but that support is not in place yet.
I am in the process of completely rebuilding the tool from scratch, which is why the number if new features recently has been very slow. This is one of those features I don't really want to design twice.
In a nutshell, I am removing the CAD engine completely, as well as the majority of the infrastructure complexity. Instead, I am building the export files directly rather than drawing and rendering the cad and then exporting the files.
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 19 May 2015, 19:52:27
It also seems like a great idea to print them as 5mm thick, and only leave the stab sections empty, to leave them room to latch on
Started printing the first piece now, with costar cutouts, ~1.52mm thick, it was triggered before I got the idea for the 5mm thick plate
If it works, the challenge is to slice the plate into ~4 pieces, my build area is 9"x10" on theory, only the ~6"x~6" center is optimal
During this process, I might also be able to test the cutout dimensions, although, the printer might not be precise enough, I will see soon
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 May 2015, 21:01:02
I decided to get a plate drawn with the swillkb builder, slice it into 3-4 pieces and 3d-print it, kind of like a ghetto custom plate, I'm not sure how rigid it's going to be, but I will soon seeMaybe check with this guy. He had pretty good success using a printer with these.
It also seems like a great idea to print them as 5mm thick, and only leave the stab sections empty, to leave them room to latch on
Started printing the first piece now, with costar cutouts, ~1.52mm thick, it was triggered before I got the idea for the 5mm thick plate
If it works, the challenge is to slice the plate into ~4 pieces, my build area is 9"x10" on theory, only the ~6"x~6" center is optimal
During this process, I might also be able to test the cutout dimensions, although, the printer might not be precise enough, I will see soon
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1635168.msg#1635168
He has other posts discussing sizing and precision and such because the printer does not give you perfect precision. I would suggest either contacting him or reviewing his posts in this thread. :)
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 19 May 2015, 22:01:39
Maybe check with this guy. He had pretty good success using a printer with these.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1635168.msg#1635168
He has other posts discussing sizing and precision and such because the printer does not give you perfect precision. I would suggest either contacting him or reviewing his posts in this thread. :)
I will check the posts, in the meantime, I had great success with my trial; with some simple support cylinder poles added near the stabilisers, this would make a rigid plate
[attachimg=1]
I'm thinking of leaving a pyramid in the middle, for the spacebar and the 2 modifiers near it, print it with silver plastic, and print the remaining 2 side sections with black plastic, to create a 2 tone plate, would look great
Can't decide on the stabs yet tho, costars started seeming clumsy even with metal plates
Getting them manufactured is also much much more practical, but in that case, I won't have the opportunity to test and optimise it, the infinity pcb is a bit non-standard, it makes the keyboard lean right, probably from the placement of the usb
Anyway, thanks again for the utility, it enabled me to find a solution to a problem that's been bugging me for some time
I'm still not sure about your stab calculations tho :) - from my trial, the costar only one is perfect, I tested it with a spacebar, but since plastic is soft, I manually removed/cut some portions out, which might have improved things, I could use it as it is, so it passed my trial
Post by: suicidal_orange on Wed, 20 May 2015, 02:18:32
Sounds awesome, should be much quicker? I can see why you don't want to write the rotation code twice, it's easy to get keys off screen in the layout editor let alone trying to re-render it's code!So should arbitrary rotations also work? I tried a complicated split board with parts at 30 and -30 rotation and it just turned out a mess, half of it wasn't even on the plate :))So the switch (and/or stabilizer) can be rotated around its center, but the space it takes up on the plate is not changed by the rotation. So in short. Yes, you can use an arbitrary rotation, but the plate size will not adapt appropriately.
I am looking into adding true rotational key clusters, but that support is not in place yet.
I am in the process of completely rebuilding the tool from scratch, which is why the number if new features recently has been very slow. This is one of those features I don't really want to design twice.
In a nutshell, I am removing the CAD engine completely, as well as the majority of the infrastructure complexity. Instead, I am building the export files directly rather than drawing and rendering the cad and then exporting the files.
Hopefully the rewrite will be done by the time I settle on a design and get it perfectly spaced. I think you've got a while as I can't even decide what keys I want (been looking at it for about a month) and every time I try to experiment with column stagger in a rotated section (changing y for 5 switch strips ) I do *something* and it rearranges the keys in pairs horizontally in the raw code so I have to start again. If anyone knows what *something* is please let me know, that would help :)
Post by: go3001 on Thu, 21 May 2015, 06:53:56
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:
(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:
(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 May 2015, 08:00:13
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM).
I suspect the professional laser cutter adjusted for kerf, so the resulting product will be exactly the size of the dimensions given. I am assuming you didn't add a kerf value for your pieces? That would result in the situation you are seeing.
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 21 May 2015, 18:09:06
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Those screws! I must know what their chamfer angle is! Their number! I must know how many! That switch plate! I must know if it is 1.5mm thick! If not, I must know if you adjusted thickness to account for screw chamfer!
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?
Post by: evera on Thu, 21 May 2015, 20:02:11
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 21 May 2015, 20:43:03
some more plates
Nice looking plates, I also enjoy codenaming stuff "Arc"s
Where/How were they produced?
Post by: go3001 on Thu, 21 May 2015, 23:43:12
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Those screws! I must know what their chamfer angle is! Their number! I must know how many! That switch plate! I must know if it is 1.5mm thick! If not, I must know if you adjusted thickness to account for screw chamfer!
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?
I don't have anything to measure it but I'm assuming 90 degrees? Yes plate is 1.5mm. The hole is just a 5.5mm diameter hole, no chamfer, screw bump thickness is about fingernail so it doesn't bother me at all
I see. No I didn't add kerf because I don't have any idea of what value it should be, but it's barely noticeable touching it so it's fine with me.As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM).
I suspect the professional laser cutter adjusted for kerf, so the resulting product will be exactly the size of the dimensions given. I am assuming you didn't add a kerf value for your pieces? That would result in the situation you are seeing.
Post by: evera on Fri, 22 May 2015, 00:30:58
some more plates
Nice looking plates, I also enjoy codenaming stuff "Arc"s
Where/How were they produced?
1.5mm clear acrylic from ponoko.com
I paid $50 ($10 materials, $40 services) for 3 plates, 2 back plates and 2 middle pieces on this round. Not a bad deal! They're close by so I just picked it up locally and saved on shipping.
Post by: Zustiur on Fri, 22 May 2015, 23:58:38
Rose says to download the SVG and open that in Inkscape, but I don't see an option for SVG. I only see DXF BRP STP STL. Inkscape only appears to recognize DXF out of those options.
I tried opening the DXF and following the next step, but I don't seem to be able to select any individual line or box in the diagam. I can select the whole diagram or nothing.
Post by: shaymdev on Sat, 23 May 2015, 00:05:27
I tried opening the DXF and following the next step, but I don't seem to be able to select any individual line or box in the diagam. I can select the whole diagram or nothing.Someone else can chime in about svg, and I haven't used inkscape yet but when I've used the dxf in libreCAD the whole drawing was a single "block" that I had to "explode" into individual lines. I then had to select multiple lines and make a "block" out of them.
This strategy may or may not work for inkscape, and there might even be a better way. That's just one thing that I ran into and found a way around it.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 24 May 2015, 01:45:19
So after seeing the "Parse error on line 1" message, I always thought the builder was glitched atm and left
It might be a good idea to check the textarea for "keyboard-layout-editor.com" existence, and show a funny error message explaining that the user should post the data instead and not the link :)
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 24 May 2015, 06:23:46
I mentioned earlier that I think the stab cutouts should be pushed further instead of being pulled, pulling the costar cutouts only made the issue worse theoretically (the issue is the far side of the stab insert rubbing to the slider, the switch is constant, so the cutout should be pushed further to relax the assembly)
I ~verified this hypothesis today, the costar stabs fit perfectly, so I don't think the issue is caused by printing error
I also visually compared this to a WASD V2 costar cutout, the WASD V2 one is almost further by 1mm, that's a lot
Can you explain the reasoning behind the current calculations?
There are a lot of people using your builder, if the calculations are wrong, all those plates will be wasted
[attachimg=1]
I think one sure way to conclude the issue is to check a bare WASD V2 plate's cutout positioning
Post by: swill on Sun, 24 May 2015, 09:36:46
By the way, I initially saw swillkb builder from reddit, however I wasn't able to use the tool for a long time as I thought the textarea was for keyboard-layout-editor links and not "Raw Data" as it explains :)My initial idea was to allow for just the URL, but it proved to be very difficult. Your idea is solid and I can look into implementing that. :). Thx...
So after seeing the "Parse error on line 1" message, I always thought the builder was glitched atm and left
It might be a good idea to check the textarea for "keyboard-layout-editor.com" existence, and show a funny error message explaining that the user should post the data instead and not the link :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 24 May 2015, 09:40:10
Hey swillI will review this when I have a minute. Can you clarify your positioning terminology. Is push towards the top and pull towards the bottom?
I mentioned earlier that I think the stab cutouts should be pushed further instead of being pulled, pulling the costar cutouts only made the issue worse theoretically (the issue is the far side of the stab insert rubbing to the slider, the switch is constant, so the cutout should be pushed further to relax the assembly)
I ~verified this hypothesis today, the costar stabs fit perfectly, so I don't think the issue is caused by printing error
I also visually compared this to a WASD V2 costar cutout, the WASD V2 one is almost further by 1mm, that's a lot
Can you explain the reasoning behind the current calculations?
There are a lot of people using your builder, if the calculations are wrong, all those plates will be wasted
(Attachment Link)
I think one sure way to conclude the issue is to check a bare WASD V2 plate's cutout positioning
I am currently in the arctic, so I have less time for real analysis right now. I will review and respond when I have some time.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 24 May 2015, 09:54:28
The drawing is a failure, yet it demonstrates the direction that I mean when I say push further
The switch, keycap and the costar inserts are constants;
so the costar cutouts, therefore the slider needs to be pushed further in the direction I drawed, so that the slider rubbing is eliminated
I'm 100% confident I want them pushed for my usage, so I might end up moving them myself eventually, but I'm not 100% confident that the calculations are flawed, as 3d printing isn't precise, yet the costar slider fit perfectly, that's why I don't think the issue is with 3d printing in this case (the slider isn't stressed either, it's just mislocated)
This is the most precise costar photo/video I found online: - as you can see, the cutout is pretty close to the top, when inserted, the nudge of the slider is aligned with the nudge of the switch, that's where I deducted the 1mm error, the nudge of the slider is much lower on my 3d printed part
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 24 May 2015, 10:25:10
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 24 May 2015, 10:29:18
If I understand correctly, everything in this tool works correctly except for the stabilizer placement right? I want to use this tool to get plate printed for my infinity keyboard but I want to make sure that it will work correctly because I do not have lots of money and I can not spend money on plates that don't work correctly.
We're on the same boat :)
I'm also going to enlarge the plate from the left by 1-2mm, otherwise there is a huge gap
I think the original plate used this tool too, or the same calculations, that's the cause of the stabiliser issues, from my experiments, the same issues persist
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 24 May 2015, 12:30:26
You mean there is a gap on the left between the plate and the case? I want to make a plate for infinity keyboard that fits in a poker II case, and I don't want a gap between the plate and the case.If I understand correctly, everything in this tool works correctly except for the stabilizer placement right? I want to use this tool to get plate printed for my infinity keyboard but I want to make sure that it will work correctly because I do not have lots of money and I can not spend money on plates that don't work correctly.
We're on the same boat :)
I'm also going to enlarge the plate from the left by 1-2mm, otherwise there is a huge gap
I think the original plate used this tool too, or the same calculations, that's the cause of the stabiliser issues, from my experiments, the same issues persist
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 24 May 2015, 12:42:10
(http://i.imgur.com/avRmGIm.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/xQurTGM.png)
Here is a pic of the code I am talking about:
(http://i.imgur.com/G4AOccl.png)
Post by: shaymdev on Sun, 24 May 2015, 12:45:44
This is weird. When i copy and paste code from keyboard-layout-editor.com, it puts {y:1.5} next to the first row which extends the plate on the top and does not generate holes for screws. When i delete the {y:1.5} then it looks normal and the screw holes are generated. Here are some pics, the first one is with {y:1.5} on the first row and the second one is without:
This one has come up a few times. Maybe it would be worth including some note about this in the tool.
As Vinny pointed out. Remove the '{y:1.5},' from the first line in the raw dara you pasted into the tool and it will fix it.
In the editor UI you just removed the keys from a preset 104 layout, but did not remove the space taken up by the function row in the original layout.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Sun, 24 May 2015, 13:02:44
This is weird. When i copy and paste code from keyboard-layout-editor.com, it puts {y:1.5} next to the first row which extends the plate on the top and does not generate holes for screws. When i delete the {y:1.5} then it looks normal and the screw holes are generated. Here are some pics, the first one is with {y:1.5} on the first row and the second one is without:That is because you forgot to reposition the keys in the editor. You can do that or just delete the {y:1.5} parameter to correct that.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/avRmGIm.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xQurTGM.png)
Here is a pic of the code I am talking about:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/G4AOccl.png)
Post by: swill on Sun, 24 May 2015, 13:28:13
Yes. As he just specified. When you removed the function row, you did not cleanup the vertical space that the function row took up. The tool is behaving correctly.This is weird. When i copy and paste code from keyboard-layout-editor.com, it puts {y:1.5} next to the first row which extends the plate on the top and does not generate holes for screws. When i delete the {y:1.5} then it looks normal and the screw holes are generated. Here are some pics, the first one is with {y:1.5} on the first row and the second one is without:That is because you forgot to reposition the keys in the editor. You can do that or just delete the {y:1.5} parameter to correct that.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/avRmGIm.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xQurTGM.png)
Here is a pic of the code I am talking about:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/G4AOccl.png)
I should check if the poker case is selected and remove it via the code if users forget to cleanup their layout before building. I will put that on the feature list for my rebuild.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 24 May 2015, 13:40:00
You mean there is a gap on the left between the plate and the case? I want to make a plate for infinity keyboard that fits in a poker II case, and I don't want a gap between the plate and the case.If I understand correctly, everything in this tool works correctly except for the stabilizer placement right? I want to use this tool to get plate printed for my infinity keyboard but I want to make sure that it will work correctly because I do not have lots of money and I can not spend money on plates that don't work correctly.
We're on the same boat :)
I'm also going to enlarge the plate from the left by 1-2mm, otherwise there is a huge gap
I think the original plate used this tool too, or the same calculations, that's the cause of the stabiliser issues, from my experiments, the same issues persist
Yes, manual modifications are needed to make the plate perfect for the infinitykb, the 6th screw hole also needs some reinforcements
Such modifications can't be done from swillkb's builder, so I'm planning on patching the plate once I'm satisfied with everything else
Suggestions:
- Advanced options to modify/omit 60% screw holes
- The option to enlarge the plate from a chosen side (left/right/top/bottom - each separately)
- New building options for 3d printing - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72183.0 - vvp has these gaps in his thick plate design that enables switches to latch on, also each stabiliser would use some space in a 5mm plate - I'm going to add these modifications manually myself - would be great to have them as a part of the builder (so instead of printing a 1.5mm plate, I decided to make it 5mm, the stabiliser areas will be emptied to make room for them)
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 24 May 2015, 15:55:44
Oh that makes sense. Thanks.Yes. As he just specified. When you removed the function row, you did not cleanup the vertical space that the function row took up. The tool is behaving correctly.This is weird. When i copy and paste code from keyboard-layout-editor.com, it puts {y:1.5} next to the first row which extends the plate on the top and does not generate holes for screws. When i delete the {y:1.5} then it looks normal and the screw holes are generated. Here are some pics, the first one is with {y:1.5} on the first row and the second one is without:That is because you forgot to reposition the keys in the editor. You can do that or just delete the {y:1.5} parameter to correct that.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/avRmGIm.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xQurTGM.png)
Here is a pic of the code I am talking about:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/G4AOccl.png)
I should check if the poker case is selected and remove it via the code if users forget to cleanup their layout before building. I will put that on the feature list for my rebuild.
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 24 May 2015, 16:08:15
Post by: swill on Sun, 24 May 2015, 19:20:21
So what exactly is the deal with the stabilizer placement? What about it needs to be fixed?
I will review it on Tuesday night when I am back from the arctic and have a chance to review this with khan (sorry for spelling, on phone).
Post by: Zustiur on Mon, 25 May 2015, 04:37:20
I tried using .dxf and 'exploding' the diagram but inkscape just tells me "No paths to break apart in the selection".
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 25 May 2015, 04:43:58
SWill, is it still possible to export to .svg?
I tried using .dxf and 'exploding' the diagram but inkscape just tells me "No paths to break apart in the selection".
You might import the model to Tinkercad on a browser than export a 2D .svg
Arctic? lol :) - I've always interpreted it as "Attic"
Well, once you are available, I might print some alternative 2u balanced cutouts and review the experience, in the meantime, it would be great if someone could share an 2u cutout of a WASD V2
I was going to service my WASD V2's, I might just do that and take photos of the 2u cutouts by desoldering them just for the photos/comparisons - but likely not in a week
Post by: swill on Mon, 25 May 2015, 09:10:56
SWill, is it still possible to export to .svg?Yes, it is a toggle option, but I think it outputs a drawing and not the geometry, so I don't think it will solve your problem.
I tried using .dxf and 'exploding' the diagram but inkscape just tells me "No paths to break apart in the selection".
Once I get back to a computer I will find it, but a couple people have discussed how to do this with a dxf file. I think two different people have written step by step guides in this thread for how to do this in two different free cad softwares.
Post by: swill on Mon, 25 May 2015, 09:12:21
Once I get back and am on a computer again I will hit you up for more details and try to work with you to get to the bottom of this. I am flying back later today.SWill, is it still possible to export to .svg?
I tried using .dxf and 'exploding' the diagram but inkscape just tells me "No paths to break apart in the selection".
You might import the model to Tinkercad on a browser than export a 2D .svg
Arctic? lol :) - I've always interpreted it as "Attic"
Well, once you are available, I might print some alternative 2u balanced cutouts and review the experience, in the meantime, it would be great if someone could share an 2u cutout of a WASD V2
I was going to service my WASD V2's, I might just do that and take photos of the 2u cutouts by desoldering them just for the photos/comparisons - but likely not in a week
Post by: wes1099 on Wed, 27 May 2015, 21:03:46
some more plates
Nice looking plates, I also enjoy codenaming stuff "Arc"s
Where/How were they produced?
1.5mm clear acrylic from ponoko.com
I paid $50 ($10 materials, $40 services) for 3 plates, 2 back plates and 2 middle pieces on this round. Not a bad deal! They're close by so I just picked it up locally and saved on shipping.
Post by: SuperSumo on Wed, 27 May 2015, 22:06:31
Does Swill's builder take something else that I'm missing into account? I haven't yet created a plate with my builder yet but would like to sometime in the future and don't want to mess up.
I've attached an animated gif of the differences with the different hole types. My builder is in blue and Swill's builder is in green. It seems that Swill's builder isn't completely symmetrical with some of the holes, or I'm just off myself.
Any thoughts?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: trauring on Thu, 28 May 2015, 06:03:54
Post by: swill on Thu, 28 May 2015, 14:47:41
So I was using the SVG output and noticed something odd. First, the holes are filled in with grey, and I'm not sure why. Second, I output 6 holes on a sandwich design, and two out of the six holes actually had two circles, one superimposed on the other. I noticed this when I selected all six and changed the fill to nothing, and noticed that two of the holes didn't change from grey to empty. I clicked on those two and hit delete, and grey-filled circles were left behind. I was then able to remove the fill from those two circles.
the grey background is just some randomness because of FreeCAD. It should not affect anything, its just visual.
the superimposed circles, that could be different. send me a screenshot so I can validate if it is an issue or not.
thx...
Post by: swill on Thu, 28 May 2015, 14:53:53
I've been making my own plate designer in Python using OpenSCAD and SolidPython (it's Python bindings) and have noticed some differences between the output of my builder and Swill's builder. I coded my key holes to the Cherry MX PDF which has the measurements on it. I was as careful as I could be with the measurements and so I'm wondering why there are differences.
Does Swill's builder take something else that I'm missing into account? I haven't yet created a plate with my builder yet but would like to sometime in the future and don't want to mess up.
I've attached an animated gif of the differences with the different hole types. My builder is in blue and Swill's builder is in green. It seems that Swill's builder isn't completely symmetrical with some of the holes, or I'm just off myself.
Any thoughts?
(Attachment Link)
There are two things that my plate takes into account that you are not getting if you just follow the cherry spec (which my drawings are basically drawn from as well).
1) The bottom of the cutout on the stabilize wings is 3.3mm wide. The reason is because the Costar stabilizer requires it. I thought I had done the cherry only one to spec and the cherry + costar one 3.3mm wide, but maybe I did both that wide. It would not affect the cherry only stabilizer because there are not clips there.
2) The vertical opening of the wing section of the MX switch cutout is taller on mine than yours. The reason is because my version of that cutout also supports alps switches (which are 15.6 x 12.8mm).
Let me know if anything is not clear...
Post by: wes1099 on Fri, 29 May 2015, 16:50:09
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 May 2015, 17:20:24
So is this thing working enough to make a plate for my infinity keyboard?Yes. It should be working perfectly since the latest cutouts pretty much line up perfectly with a cutout that is known to work well.
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 29 May 2015, 18:21:59
So is this thing working enough to make a plate for my infinity keyboard?Yes. It should be working perfectly since the latest cutouts pretty much line up perfectly with a cutout that is known to work well.
What cutout type is that? Are you sure? Did you test them yourself?
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 May 2015, 18:52:12
The cherry + costar is now almost identical to jd's cutout which has been proven to be good. The costar only has been adjusted as well to match the same dimensions.So is this thing working enough to make a plate for my infinity keyboard?Yes. It should be working perfectly since the latest cutouts pretty much line up perfectly with a cutout that is known to work well.
What cutout type is that? Are you sure? Did you test them yourself?
You are doing 3d printing tests still with the latest cutouts?
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 29 May 2015, 19:28:41
The cherry + costar is now almost identical to jd's cutout which has been proven to be good. The costar only has been adjusted as well to match the same dimensions.So is this thing working enough to make a plate for my infinity keyboard?Yes. It should be working perfectly since the latest cutouts pretty much line up perfectly with a cutout that is known to work well.
What cutout type is that? Are you sure? Did you test them yourself?
You are doing 3d printing tests still with the latest cutouts?
I haven't tested JD's cutouts, also, cherry+costar likely sacrifices costar optimality for compatibility, so referencing that cutout for a costar-only setup is a very bad idea
The issue is simple, the insert rubs onto the far side of the slider, so the logical thing to do is to move the costar cutouts to the far side, so the insert no longer rubs and gets the switch stuck
With your change, you moved the costar cutouts to the opposite side, which just made the issue worse (the previous one was usable, the latest one gets the assembly stuck)
In my opinion, you keep referencing JD's cutout without any actual testing or analysis and to make things worse you are vouching for the usability of the cutout
Cherry stabs have to be aligned with the switch, as the insert is part of the assembly, yet for the costar stab, things are very different, instead of being symmetrical, the cutout has to be closer to the far side
(far side == usb side)
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 29 May 2015, 19:51:51
YOU may not have tested my cutouts, but I have. They are present in a bunch of existing plates, including every JD40 plate in existence. Why would they not work in swill's application?The cherry + costar is now almost identical to jd's cutout which has been proven to be good. The costar only has been adjusted as well to match the same dimensions.So is this thing working enough to make a plate for my infinity keyboard?Yes. It should be working perfectly since the latest cutouts pretty much line up perfectly with a cutout that is known to work well.
What cutout type is that? Are you sure? Did you test them yourself?
You are doing 3d printing tests still with the latest cutouts?
I haven't tested JD's cutouts, also, cherry+costar likely sacrifices costar optimality for compatibility, so referencing that cutout for a costar-only setup is a very bad idea
The issue is simple, the insert rubs onto the far side of the slider, so the logical thing to do is to move the costar cutouts to the far side, so the insert no longer rubs and gets the switch stuck
With your change, you moved the costar cutouts to the opposite side, which just made the issue worse (the previous one was usable, the latest one gets the assembly stuck)
In my opinion, you keep referencing JD's cutout without any actual testing or analysis and to make things worse you are vouching for the usability of the cutout
Cherry stabs have to be aligned with the switch, as the insert is part of the assembly, yet for the costar stab, things are very different, instead of being symmetrical, the cutout has to be closer to the far side
(far side == usb side)
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 29 May 2015, 19:56:26
YOU may not have tested my cutouts, but I have. They are present in a bunch of existing plates, including every JD40 plate in existence. Why would they not work in swill's application?
So are you vouching for the optimality of swill's costar cutouts/compatibility?
Have you read the issues/discussions about the costar stabs?
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 29 May 2015, 20:07:37
If they are the functionally same as mine, why wouldn't they work the same? Obviously I can't vouch for something I haven't tested myself.YOU may not have tested my cutouts, but I have. They are present in a bunch of existing plates, including every JD40 plate in existence. Why would they not work in swill's application?
So are you vouching for the optimality of swill's costar cutouts/compatibility?
Have you read the issues/discussions about the costar stabs?
I have read the discussion about the Costar issues, and I don't have the problem you experienced with Costar stabilizers in my cutouts. I've built many a JD40 with a Costar stabilizer on the spacebar, and never had one problem. Maybe it's because I only use laser cut 0.062" thick 304 stainless for my plates?
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 29 May 2015, 20:27:45
If they are the functionally same as mine, why wouldn't they work the same? Obviously I can't vouch for something I haven't tested myself.YOU may not have tested my cutouts, but I have. They are present in a bunch of existing plates, including every JD40 plate in existence. Why would they not work in swill's application?
So are you vouching for the optimality of swill's costar cutouts/compatibility?
Have you read the issues/discussions about the costar stabs?
I have read the discussion about the Costar issues, and I don't have the problem you experienced with Costar stabilizers in my cutouts. I've built many a JD40 with a Costar stabilizer on the spacebar, and never had one problem. Maybe it's because I only use laser cut 0.062" thick 304 stainless for my plates?
That's my point, more testing is needed for vouching and validating :)
As wes1099, I initially experienced costar stabiliser issues with the infinitykb, I don't know the source of their calculations, but they are also cherry+costar's (everyone who built their infinity reported similar issues)
The issue is similar to the one others reported with swillkb's cherry+costar cutout, the far side of the insert rubbing to the slider, only pushing/sanding the slider makes the stabiliser usable, for some that didn't work either
I think the cherry+costar cutout was on the edge of the costar stabiliser's error margin (there is a lot of wiggle room for the insert, I believe for an optimal setup, the insert should be centered, currently the insert leans to one side, rubbing it), the latest update pushed things for the worse
I believe the costar-only cutouts should be optimised further, compared to a WASD V2's cutouts, there is a visible difference of around 1mm's
On a selfish level, I could just push the costar cutouts to my liking myself and get things over with, as I genuinely believe they should be improved/fixed, but I don't want to see others get plates built only to experience similar issues
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 May 2015, 21:13:21
If they are the functionally same as mine, why wouldn't they work the same? Obviously I can't vouch for something I haven't tested myself.YOU may not have tested my cutouts, but I have. They are present in a bunch of existing plates, including every JD40 plate in existence. Why would they not work in swill's application?
So are you vouching for the optimality of swill's costar cutouts/compatibility?
Have you read the issues/discussions about the costar stabs?
I have read the discussion about the Costar issues, and I don't have the problem you experienced with Costar stabilizers in my cutouts. I've built many a JD40 with a Costar stabilizer on the spacebar, and never had one problem. Maybe it's because I only use laser cut 0.062" thick 304 stainless for my plates?
That's my point, more testing is needed for vouching and validating :)
As wes1099, I initially experienced costar stabiliser issues with the infinitykb, I don't know the source of their calculations, but they are also cherry+costar's (everyone who built their infinity reported similar issues)
The issue is similar to the one others reported with swillkb's cherry+costar cutout, the far side of the insert rubbing to the slider, only pushing/sanding the slider makes the stabiliser usable, for some that didn't work either
I think the cherry+costar cutout was on the edge of the costar stabiliser's error margin (there is a lot of wiggle room for the insert, I believe for an optimal setup, the insert should be centered, currently the insert leans to one side, rubbing it), the latest update pushed things for the worse
I believe the costar-only cutouts should be optimised further, compared to a WASD V2's cutouts, there is a visible difference of around 1mm's
On a selfish level, I could just push the costar cutouts to my liking myself and get things over with, as I genuinely believe they should be improved/fixed, but I don't want to see others get plates built only to experience similar issues
So some of the stuff you are saying is just not true, which is unfortunate and only making things less clear. The adjustment I did to the costar cutout WAS IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION.
Before, it was .75mm towards the wire side on both the top and bottom (as per the only spec available). The costar opening was 14mm long which is the same as the switch opening. This is what you originally had a problems with. I did a bunch of testing here on my cherry + costar cutout and verified that the cutout was too far towards the wire side. However, I think part of the reason for this is because of the 1.6mm plate thickness which makes the costar stabilizer not clip in perfectly. I will give you numbers on this stuff in a second.
So instead of the cutout being 14mm long and the top and bottom both being .75mm from the top, I left the bottom the same as it was and I elongated the hole by .15mm, so the top is now only .6mm from the top of the switch and the cutout is 14.15mm long. For comparison, JD's is 14.19mm long and is almost exactly the same placement as mine.
I know that the 1.6mm plate is causing the stabilizer to not clip in perfectly because the opening between the top of the uprights of the costar stabilizer when clipped in is 7.5mm while on the QFR, the same stabilizer has a top opening of 7.9mm. Also, the width of the slider which goes between the two uprights is 7.3mm, so the tolerances we are working with here are in the ballpark of .1mm to .2mm. Your suggestion to move the cutout by a whole mm would make nothing work.
So, in summary... lengthening the cutout will make the uprights sit more correctly and let the stabilizer clip in better. It will also give more room for the upright on the opposite side from the upright a little more space to get out of the way.
Just so you know. The space between the uprights and the switch are NOT supposed to be lined up. The reason is because the insert is longer on the top side than the bottom side, so that opening is actually shifted slightly towards the top of the switch (away from the wire). You will also notice that the space between the uprights is not centered in the middle of the cutout because the wire mechanism pushes all of that towards the top of the switch.
Hope that clears things up.
I appreciate the feedback, but I need measurements with a caliper if you are testing and things are not working as you expect so I can understand the problem.
Cheers...
Edit: I am actually considering extending my cutout by another 0.04mm towards the top to make it the same as JD's exactly at 14.19mm long. I think that could help guarantee that everything will work well with the slightly thicker 1.6mm plates. The reason I am not right now is because the top of the top upright will exaggerate the problem because of the placement of the pivot point being right at the level of the plate.
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 29 May 2015, 21:55:24
Just checked things further with my printed plates, compared them to a WASD V2's cutout, here are some observations
1) In general, the far side of the slider insert is too close to the slider, while for the wire-side, there is a <1mm gap, so the cutout is free to move to the far-side by <1mm - even if it's outside the original specifications for the cutout
2) the bare WASD V2 cutouts and the swill produced cutouts look similar, so indeed if an issues exists, it's around the 0.1mm range, or it doesn't exist at all
3) even the slightest clipping issue is enough to make the stabiliser not work (1)
The conclusion I draw from these observations are:
i) The calculations are probably generally correct - or the error is negligible
ii) Pushing the costar cutout 0.2mm to the top/further side could make things work with 1.5mm+ plates too
On my 3d printed plate, the cutouts look good, the stabiliser latches on well, yet the rubbing still occurs, so I will just bump the cutout up in 0.1mm increments until it works well with my manufacturing method
Anyway, thanks once again for the builder, I apologise if I upset anyone through my discussions/observations
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 May 2015, 23:01:13
I don't have access to precision measurement equipment, that's why my comments are always ~1mm - dipping below 1mm would be just speculation in my case
Just checked things further with my printed plates, compared them to a WASD V2's cutout, here are some observations
1) In general, the far side of the slider insert is too close to the slider, while for the wire-side, there is a <1mm gap, so the cutout is free to move to the far-side by <1mm - even if it's outside the original specifications for the cutout
2) the bare WASD V2 cutouts and the swill produced cutouts look similar, so indeed if an issues exists, it's around the 0.1mm range, or it doesn't exist at all
3) even the slightest clipping issue is enough to make the stabiliser not work (1)
The conclusion I draw from these observations are:
i) The calculations are probably generally correct - or the error is negligible
ii) Pushing the costar cutout 0.2mm to the top/further side could make things work with 1.5mm+ plates too
On my 3d printed plate, the cutouts look good, the stabiliser latches on well, yet the rubbing still occurs, so I will just bump the cutout up in 0.1mm increments until it works well with my manufacturing method
Anyway, thanks once again for the builder, I apologise if I upset anyone through my discussions/observations
If you are using the old cutout, this sounds exactly right. This is why I added the .15mm to the top of the cutout to make it 14.15mm long instead of 14.00mm long.
If you are using the new cutout, I have a hunch that the resulting 3d printed plates have a slightly smaller opening than laser cut. If I remember correctly, the other people who did 3d printed plates commented that the opening measured a little smaller than the spec. It was suggested that it could have had something to do with the plastic flowing a bit before it cured. Its hard to know for sure without a caliper. If the opening is too short and it can't clip all the way in, this is the behavior you would see. This is because the top upright is going to be the one that has the majority of the error which will result in it getting pushed into the slider opening.
If you look from the side at just the stabilizer once it is clipped in (and you compare it with one that you know to be working), is the upright on the top slightly angled into the slider area at the top?
No worries dude. People have to put a lot of money on the line to get these plates cut, so it is important that we understand what is going on so we can address it accordingly. No hard feelings here, we are doing our best given the fact that we are not looking at exactly the same thing and so much of this is up for interpretation. :)
Post by: LeandreN on Sat, 30 May 2015, 12:56:18
I was tinkering around with your sandwhich case builder tool and was wondering a couple of things.
What is the sstandard screw hole size, and could you link me the type of screw i want to use?
Is the plates that is included with the sandwhich case enough space for handwiring?¨
¨
L
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 30 May 2015, 20:41:09
I enlarged the cutouts myself with a scalpel on the older version, which relaxed things a lot, did the same with the newer version now, it similarly improved things, now the key moves without being stuck, yet on both usages, the insert touches the slider slightly, which isn't necessarily a bad thing
On both versions, the latching on is satisfactory, there is no bending (both re-touched and not)
On the bright side, re-touching plastic is pretty easy
I like the close-call result of the current result, I might test a 0.1mm moved version myself, which would work without re-touching, yet the key press experience might not be as solid as the close-call one - it gets the keycap stuck, but once re-touched, it also prevents wobble in the y direction
If we can draw one certain conclusion from all these, extreme precision is required to make costar's work with the default calculations
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 May 2015, 22:50:52
The new one was printed more precisely after calibrating the device further, the new one uses the new calculations, the new one got stuck
I enlarged the cutouts myself with a scalpel on the older version, which relaxed things a lot, did the same with the newer version now, it similarly improved things, now the key moves without being stuck, yet on both usages, the insert touches the slider slightly, which isn't necessarily a bad thing
On both versions, the latching on is satisfactory, there is no bending (both re-touched and not)
On the bright side, re-touching plastic is pretty easy
I like the close-call result of the current result, I might test a 0.1mm moved version myself, which would work without re-touching, yet the key press experience might not be as solid as the close-call one - it gets the keycap stuck, but once re-touched, it also prevents wobble in the y direction
If we can draw one certain conclusion from all these, extreme precision is required to make costar's work with the default calculations
Ya, I think I will add another .05mm of cutout to the top of the cutout to basically have exactly the same thing that JD has. I think that should get us where we need to be without things being too loose. Make sense? So that would be 14.2mm long and it would be from .75mm below to .55mm from top.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 30 May 2015, 23:43:42
A way for anyone to configure the result for their specific usage
There could be a simple documentation on these advanced configuration parameters and a simple explanation of how they work and why they are useful etc.
A perfect 1.5mm plate might not need the additional space, but it seems many other plates do, but if someone is going to get a perfect plate manufactured the additional space would be unnecessary
What I'm ultimately saying is, if it's impossible to satisfy everyone with one result, it's a good idea to add more customisation options :)
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 31 May 2015, 02:31:49
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:The reason that the acrylic isn't cut right is due to the two pass cutting, if your laser isn't powerful enough to cut in single pass or even the power and speed is not optimised in the case of a single pass for thicker sheets (>3mm), you'll get a taper and this is what happened in your case. One side of the acrylic is slightly wider than the other.Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?Actually, I was the one that devised the method to use hex stand-offs in middle layers and countersunk screws on top and bottom layers. It was first used on the GHPad about a year or two back. The Koreans then followed.
Post by: QuiGonJinn on Tue, 02 June 2015, 14:59:37
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_005_zpsodpvvt7f.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_005_zpsodpvvt7f.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_004_zpsje2v3nav.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_004_zpsje2v3nav.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_001_zpsyd07va3x.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_001_zpsyd07va3x.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_002_zpsfqqw7r0y.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_002_zpsfqqw7r0y.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_003_zpsncczn1a0.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_003_zpsncczn1a0.jpg.html)
Post by: eosph on Tue, 02 June 2015, 15:44:33
Code: [Select]
[{x:0.5,w:1.5,w2:1},"tab\n\n\n\n\n\n`","q",{x:-1},"",{x:-1},"q",{x:-1},"q\nz\n\n\n1/!\n\na","w\nx\n\n\n2/\"\n\ns","e\nc\n\n\n3/£\n\nd","r\nv\n\n\n4/$\n\nf","t\nb\n\n\n5/%\n\ng",{x:1},"u\nm\n\n\n7/&\n\nj","i\n,\n\n\n8/*\n\nk","o\n.\n\n\n9/(\n\nl","p\n/\n\n\n0/)\n\n;","{\n\n\n\n-/_\n\n'","}\n\n\n\n=/+\n\n#"],
[{x:0.5,w:1.25},"shift",{w:1.25},"ctrl","","raise","raise",{a:5,w:2.75},"space",{a:4},"lower","lower",{w:1.25},"enter",{w:2},"backspace"],
[{rx:0.75,ry:0.25,y:-0.25,x:6.25},"y\nn\n\n\n6/^\n\nh"]
It's a two row plate but the middle key (directly above "space") keeps appearing at the bottom. Not quite sure what I'm doing wrong here.
(http://i.imgur.com/8w8vHwq.png)
Post by: Charger on Tue, 02 June 2015, 16:20:45
I'm having trouble getting the following to build properly:well it should only be 2 lines of code and you had like 3 keys under pCode: [Select][{x:0.5,w:1.5,w2:1},"tab\n\n\n\n\n\n`","q",{x:-1},"",{x:-1},"q",{x:-1},"q\nz\n\n\n1/!\n\na","w\nx\n\n\n2/\"\n\ns","e\nc\n\n\n3/£\n\nd","r\nv\n\n\n4/$\n\nf","t\nb\n\n\n5/%\n\ng",{x:1},"u\nm\n\n\n7/&\n\nj","i\n,\n\n\n8/*\n\nk","o\n.\n\n\n9/(\n\nl","p\n/\n\n\n0/)\n\n;","{\n\n\n\n-/_\n\n'","}\n\n\n\n=/+\n\n#"],
[{x:0.5,w:1.25},"shift",{w:1.25},"ctrl","","raise","raise",{a:5,w:2.75},"space",{a:4},"lower","lower",{w:1.25},"enter",{w:2},"backspace"],
[{rx:0.75,ry:0.25,y:-0.25,x:6.25},"y\nn\n\n\n6/^\n\nh"]
It's a two row plate but the middle key (directly above "space") keeps appearing at the bottom. Not quite sure what I'm doing wrong here.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/8w8vHwq.png)
here is the thing cleaned up a bit and working
Code: [Select]
[{w:1.5,w2:1},"","","","","","","","","","","","",""],
[{w:1.25},"",{w:1.25},"","","","",{a:5,w:2.75},"",{a:4},"","",{w:1.25},"",{w:2},""]
Post by: Charger on Wed, 03 June 2015, 23:33:26
Oh while I'm at it is anyone willing to idiot check my files before I try and order? I would hate to spend the money just to find out something was obviously wrong with my file (files made with swills tool combines and slightly modded)
Post by: eosph on Thu, 04 June 2015, 12:56:21
I'm having trouble getting the following to build properly:well it should only be 2 lines of code and you had like 3 keys under pCode: [Select][{x:0.5,w:1.5,w2:1},"tab\n\n\n\n\n\n`","q",{x:-1},"",{x:-1},"q",{x:-1},"q\nz\n\n\n1/!\n\na","w\nx\n\n\n2/\"\n\ns","e\nc\n\n\n3/£\n\nd","r\nv\n\n\n4/$\n\nf","t\nb\n\n\n5/%\n\ng",{x:1},"u\nm\n\n\n7/&\n\nj","i\n,\n\n\n8/*\n\nk","o\n.\n\n\n9/(\n\nl","p\n/\n\n\n0/)\n\n;","{\n\n\n\n-/_\n\n'","}\n\n\n\n=/+\n\n#"],
[{x:0.5,w:1.25},"shift",{w:1.25},"ctrl","","raise","raise",{a:5,w:2.75},"space",{a:4},"lower","lower",{w:1.25},"enter",{w:2},"backspace"],
[{rx:0.75,ry:0.25,y:-0.25,x:6.25},"y\nn\n\n\n6/^\n\nh"]
It's a two row plate but the middle key (directly above "space") keeps appearing at the bottom. Not quite sure what I'm doing wrong here.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/8w8vHwq.png)
here is the thing cleaned up a bit and workingCode: [Select][{w:1.5,w2:1},"","","","","","","","","","","","",""],
[{w:1.25},"",{w:1.25},"","","","",{a:5,w:2.75},"",{a:4},"","",{w:1.25},"",{w:2},""]
Thanks Charger that's worked brilliantly.
Post by: swill on Fri, 05 June 2015, 08:53:13
I'm going to be putting in an order soon at bigbluesaw and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how to do that. Should I just go through his online quote tool or what. Also I assume that i should order stainless steel t-304 0.06 inch.Sorry have not had a chance to look at this yet. I am in the hospital right now. In the process of passing 7 kidney stones. :(
Oh while I'm at it is anyone willing to idiot check my files before I try and order? I would hate to spend the money just to find out something was obviously wrong with my file (files made with swills tool combines and slightly modded)
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 05 June 2015, 08:56:20
I'm going to be putting in an order soon at bigbluesaw and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how to do that. Should I just go through his online quote tool or what. Also I assume that i should order stainless steel t-304 0.06 inch.Sorry have not had a chance to look at this yet. I am in the hospital right now. In the process of passing 7 kidney stones. :(
Oh while I'm at it is anyone willing to idiot check my files before I try and order? I would hate to spend the money just to find out something was obviously wrong with my file (files made with swills tool combines and slightly modded)
Good luck with that swill, hope it will be fine for you.
Post by: Charger on Fri, 05 June 2015, 09:46:01
Well that sucks.I'm going to be putting in an order soon at bigbluesaw and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how to do that. Should I just go through his online quote tool or what. Also I assume that i should order stainless steel t-304 0.06 inch.Sorry have not had a chance to look at this yet. I am in the hospital right now. In the process of passing 7 kidney stones. :(
Oh while I'm at it is anyone willing to idiot check my files before I try and order? I would hate to spend the money just to find out something was obviously wrong with my file (files made with swills tool combines and slightly modded)
Anyways no rush I still have not received any of the parts I have ordered anyways and the keycaps I ordered will not even ship until the start of next month.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 05 June 2015, 13:22:22
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Those screws! I must know what their chamfer angle is! Their number! I must know how many! That switch plate! I must know if it is 1.5mm thick! If not, I must know if you adjusted thickness to account for screw chamfer!
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?
On chamfer angles for counter sunk screws. For this application, I wouldn't worry about it. Just make sure that they angle matches the hardware. I used 90° hardware for my JD40 and everything tightened up just fine. The only time that the flatter angle helps is in applications where maximum strength in thin materials is the number 1 priority. Such as aviation. The skin on Black Hawk helicopters contributes about 0% of the structural integrity of the airframe.
Post by: wes1099 on Sun, 07 June 2015, 21:58:32
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 08 June 2015, 22:11:45
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Those screws! I must know what their chamfer angle is! Their number! I must know how many! That switch plate! I must know if it is 1.5mm thick! If not, I must know if you adjusted thickness to account for screw chamfer!
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?
On chamfer angles for counter sunk screws. For this application, I wouldn't worry about it. Just make sure that they angle matches the hardware. I used 90° hardware for my JD40 and everything tightened up just fine. The only time that the flatter angle helps is in applications where maximum strength in thin materials is the number 1 priority. Such as aviation. The skin on Black Hawk helicopters contributes about 0% of the structural integrity of the airframe.
Thanks for confirming this. One less barrier remains in my path to custom keyboard nirvana. Now I just need to get a drill press, countersink bit, and tap set when I'm ready to order my plates.
Actually, I was the one that devised the method to use hex stand-offs in middle layers and countersunk screws on top and bottom layers. It was first used on the GHPad about a year or two back. The Koreans then followed.Thanks for bringing the GHPad to my attention. I PM'ed you with several questions last week, but Melvang answered them here.
Post by: wes1099 on Tue, 09 June 2015, 10:51:54
Show Image
Show Image
Show Image
Show Image
So, I had my first case and plate cut in acrylic today. I am using 1.6mm acrylic for the mounting plate and 3mm acrylic for the support and other layers. The process of cutting has left some burning marks on most of the layers, making the surface a little bit rough, but It mostly goes by annoticed, especially on the black sheets. My problem at the moment, is that costar stabilizers and the switches don't clip in place, my guess is because the plate is too thick, and I'm thinking of using sandpaper to get it to 1.5mm if possible. Here go the pictures. Excuse me for the bad quality and lighting:
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_005_zpsodpvvt7f.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_005_zpsodpvvt7f.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_004_zpsje2v3nav.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_004_zpsje2v3nav.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_001_zpsyd07va3x.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_001_zpsyd07va3x.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_002_zpsfqqw7r0y.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_002_zpsfqqw7r0y.jpg.html)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/teoftw/WP_20150602_003_zpsncczn1a0.jpg) (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/teoftw/media/WP_20150602_003_zpsncczn1a0.jpg.html)
How did you make the support layer that goes underneath the plate? I am thinking I am going to need one of those to go with my acrylic plate too.
Post by: OverKill on Wed, 10 June 2015, 16:18:06
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.
Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.
Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.
Thanks.
I made my sandwich with Swill's builder, 4mm semi-frost, 6mm frost acrylic and my uni's crappy laser cutter. The laser was weak so it had to go over cut lines again for 6mm, here are the results:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbGY.jpg)
4 pieces for 2 boards.
and put together:Show Image(http://puu.sh/hVbDB.jpg)
As you can see the acrylic edge is 'going inwards', compared to metal plates which were 'professionally cut' (if you live in NZ don't go to HSM). Probably the laser's fault though.
I used M3 10mm standoffs for those hexagons (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261283813262?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)) and the cut dimension is 5.5mm inscribed which fit fine. M3 5mm screws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111471636269?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=410467517385&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Also thank you Swill for the stabiliser fix!
Edit: Current progress: http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg (http://puu.sh/hVchB.jpg) ;D
Those screws! I must know what their chamfer angle is! Their number! I must know how many! That switch plate! I must know if it is 1.5mm thick! If not, I must know if you adjusted thickness to account for screw chamfer!
Yours is the first non-Korean custom case I've seen that used countersunk screws. That's the design element that's been torturing me for my case design. I thought I would have to get screws with a 100 or 110 degree chamfer to ensure that the screw was holding onto enough of the switch plate but I can't find screws like that anywhere. I think there's a secret cabal that keeps those screws off the open market. Did you chamfer the screw holes on the switch plate yourself or did you have the cutter do it?
BTW, for flathead screws: metric screws are 90 degrees (unless they say otherwise) and american screws are 82 degrees (unless they say otherwise)
Post by: wes1099 on Wed, 10 June 2015, 21:08:44
Post by: swill on Thu, 11 June 2015, 19:58:04
Is there a way for me to move the USB cutout on a sandwitch case so I can use a poker II or similar PCB?Not at this time. It is a feature I am still figuring out how to implement.
Post by: wes1099 on Mon, 15 June 2015, 22:22:58
These are the main weak points
(http://i.imgur.com/6Oa1Sqc.png)
Removing this horizontal hole spanning the area between the two spacebar stabilizers
(http://i.imgur.com/EhSnsLb.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/XOTrERf.png)
Removing cherry stabilizer compatability to minimize amount of material that gets cut out. Also reduces cost as a bonus.
(http://i.imgur.com/h8GJO3G.png)
This is the weakest spot in the entire design because those two lines are almost on top of each other, and I have no idea how I can fix that without obstructing access to the screw hole
(http://i.imgur.com/73HtUhB.png)
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 16 June 2015, 09:16:31
[attachimg=1]
Here's what I sent in:
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]Can anyone help me with what's wrong? I'm assuming it's the Caps lock, but also are the screw holes supposed to run into the switch holes?
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Tue, 16 June 2015, 14:44:46
So I was trying to make a Poker plate with 2mm corners and a hole for stepped or centered caps lock. But it's out of whack:To the right of the Caps Lock the entire row is shifted 0.5 unit from the place where they were supposed to be. The following data should correct it:
(Attachment Link)
Here's what I sent in:Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Can anyone help me with what's wrong? I'm assuming it's the Caps lock, but also are the screw holes supposed to run into the switch holes?
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{x:-1.25,w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: nephiel on Tue, 16 June 2015, 15:22:23
So I was trying to make a Poker plate with 2mm corners and a hole for stepped or centered caps lock. But it's out of whack:To the right of the Caps Lock the entire row is shifted 0.5 unit from the place where they were supposed to be. The following data should correct it:
(Attachment Link)
Here's what I sent in:Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Can anyone help me with what's wrong? I'm assuming it's the Caps lock, but also are the screw holes supposed to run into the switch holes?Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{x:-1.25,w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
You also have an extra key labeled "Stepped" hidden behind the Caps Lock key. Fixed:
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Tue, 16 June 2015, 16:07:12
You also have an extra key labeled "Stepped" hidden behind the Caps Lock key. Fixed:Actually the hidden key is a hack that allows the builder make the correct cutout for both centered and off centered versions of the Caps Lock, it is desirable.Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: nephiel on Tue, 16 June 2015, 16:24:09
Actually the hidden key is a hack that allows the builder make the correct cutout for both centered and off centered versions of the Caps Lock, it is desirable.Ah, sorry then. I thought it was there by mistake because the cutout overlapped the screw hole.
Post by: Charger on Tue, 16 June 2015, 18:11:07
I have tried it in programs and I think it is correct but I couldn't get my printer to print it full scale for me to check it that way.
I have attached the file if anyone is willing to look at it, the parts were made with the tool and then slightly modified by me for somethings.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 16 June 2015, 19:36:17
So I was trying to make a Poker plate with 2mm corners and a hole for stepped or centered caps lock. But it's out of whack:To the right of the Caps Lock the entire row is shifted 0.5 unit from the place where they were supposed to be. The following data should correct it:
(Attachment Link)
Here's what I sent in:Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Can anyone help me with what's wrong? I'm assuming it's the Caps lock, but also are the screw holes supposed to run into the switch holes?Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{x:-1.25,w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Actually the hidden key is a hack that allows the builder make the correct cutout for both centered and off centered versions of the Caps Lock, it is desirable.Ah, sorry then. I thought it was there by mistake because the cutout overlapped the screw hole.
You also have an extra key labeled "Stepped" hidden behind the Caps Lock key. Fixed:Actually the hidden key is a hack that allows the builder make the correct cutout for both centered and off centered versions of the Caps Lock, it is desirable.Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
So I was trying to make a Poker plate with 2mm corners and a hole for stepped or centered caps lock. But it's out of whack:To the right of the Caps Lock the entire row is shifted 0.5 unit from the place where they were supposed to be. The following data should correct it:
(Attachment Link)
Here's what I sent in:Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Can anyone help me with what's wrong? I'm assuming it's the Caps lock, but also are the screw holes supposed to run into the switch holes?Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{x:-1.25,w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
You also have an extra key labeled "Stepped" hidden behind the Caps Lock key. Fixed:Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Thanks, guys, so so much for your help. That did it! I'm so happy now. Uploading to Ponoko!
Post by: worldspawn on Tue, 16 June 2015, 20:34:33
Example:
(notice the extra vector ends)
(http://i.imgur.com/YHgbMJq.png)
and pulling them out:
(http://i.imgur.com/dqRRTR2.png)
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 June 2015, 20:42:12
So again I will ask, if any one is willing to idiot check my files before i try ordering them? I basically just want to know if I messed up something like scale on the file and that switches should fit since that is a decent amount of money lost if it is wrong and I order from in stainless from big blue sawI can check it for you tomorrow if you like. :)
I have tried it in programs and I think it is correct but I couldn't get my printer to print it full scale for me to check it that way.
I have attached the file if anyone is willing to look at it, the parts were made with the tool and then slightly modified by me for somethings.
Post by: Charger on Tue, 16 June 2015, 20:55:48
That would be great, thank you.So again I will ask, if any one is willing to idiot check my files before i try ordering them? I basically just want to know if I messed up something like scale on the file and that switches should fit since that is a decent amount of money lost if it is wrong and I order from in stainless from big blue sawI can check it for you tomorrow if you like. :)
I have tried it in programs and I think it is correct but I couldn't get my printer to print it full scale for me to check it that way.
I have attached the file if anyone is willing to look at it, the parts were made with the tool and then slightly modified by me for somethings.
Post by: wes1099 on Tue, 16 June 2015, 22:43:29
I just had a customer send me a vector file he said was output by the plate builder, EVERY vector in the file was a 4-sided rectangle with 2 of the sides set to 0mm. This is a HUGE issue for a laser cutter as it cuts every line twice. Is this an intentional feature??That is strange, because I did not have that issue when I got my plate laser cut. I downloaded the file from the generator, changed a few settings and exported as a different file type to meet the requirements of the company doing the cutting, uploaded it, and it was fine. I just downloaded a file from the generator yesterday and while editing it I did not experience this issue. I don't know much about this tool so you should probably ask Swill (he made the tool). It might have something to do with what your customer put into the generator, but I don't know what else it would be.
Example:
(notice the extra vector ends)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YHgbMJq.png)
and pulling them out:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dqRRTR2.png)
Post by: worldspawn on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:01:48
I just had a customer send me a vector file he said was output by the plate builder, EVERY vector in the file was a 4-sided rectangle with 2 of the sides set to 0mm. This is a HUGE issue for a laser cutter as it cuts every line twice. Is this an intentional feature??That is strange, because I did not have that issue when I got my plate laser cut. I downloaded the file from the generator, changed a few settings and exported as a different file type to meet the requirements of the company doing the cutting, uploaded it, and it was fine. I just downloaded a file from the generator yesterday and while editing it I did not experience this issue. I don't know much about this tool so you should probably ask Swill (he made the tool). It might have something to do with what your customer put into the generator, but I don't know what else it would be.
Example:
(notice the extra vector ends)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YHgbMJq.png)
and pulling them out:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dqRRTR2.png)
I went to the generator, and output a file from the default numpad layout and yep, all vectors are 0mm wide rectangles straight from the svg file output from the website.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 17 June 2015, 08:00:48
That would be great, thank you.So again I will ask, if any one is willing to idiot check my files before i try ordering them? I basically just want to know if I messed up something like scale on the file and that switches should fit since that is a decent amount of money lost if it is wrong and I order from in stainless from big blue sawI can check it for you tomorrow if you like. :)
I have tried it in programs and I think it is correct but I couldn't get my printer to print it full scale for me to check it that way.
I have attached the file if anyone is willing to look at it, the parts were made with the tool and then slightly modified by me for somethings.
Looks good to me. I didn't see anything out of place. I did have to explode all the blocks to check the dimensions, but I don't know if that's a problem for the cutter or not.
Post by: wes1099 on Wed, 17 June 2015, 18:00:18
Post by: Charger on Wed, 17 June 2015, 19:39:09
Looks good to me. I didn't see anything out of place. I did have to explode all the blocks to check the dimensions, but I don't know if that's a problem for the cutter or not.Thank you.
Since i will probably be ordering from bigbluesaw tomorrow or so does any one have any suggestions on how i should do that as in should i just do it through his online quote tool or what? I'm assuming i should get it cut in .06" stainless steel unless anyone says otherwise.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 17 June 2015, 20:54:23
Looks good to me. I didn't see anything out of place. I did have to explode all the blocks to check the dimensions, but I don't know if that's a problem for the cutter or not.Thank you.
Since i will probably be ordering from bigbluesaw tomorrow or so does any one have any suggestions on how i should do that as in should i just do it through his online quote tool or what? I'm assuming i should get it cut in .06" stainless steel unless anyone says otherwise.
1.5mm is the standard.
Don't forget to convert it to mm before uploading to BBS.
Post by: Charger on Wed, 17 June 2015, 21:09:46
ya the file is in set to metric and bbs have materials listed in inches and .06 inches is 1.524mm so that seems to be the best choiceLooks good to me. I didn't see anything out of place. I did have to explode all the blocks to check the dimensions, but I don't know if that's a problem for the cutter or not.Thank you.
Since i will probably be ordering from bigbluesaw tomorrow or so does any one have any suggestions on how i should do that as in should i just do it through his online quote tool or what? I'm assuming i should get it cut in .06" stainless steel unless anyone says otherwise.
1.5mm is the standard.
Don't forget to convert it to mm before uploading to BBS.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 17 June 2015, 21:38:04
ya the file is in set to metric and bbs have materials listed in inches and .06 inches is 1.524mm so that seems to be the best choiceLooks good to me. I didn't see anything out of place. I did have to explode all the blocks to check the dimensions, but I don't know if that's a problem for the cutter or not.Thank you.
Since i will probably be ordering from bigbluesaw tomorrow or so does any one have any suggestions on how i should do that as in should i just do it through his online quote tool or what? I'm assuming i should get it cut in .06" stainless steel unless anyone says otherwise.
1.5mm is the standard.
Don't forget to convert it to mm before uploading to BBS.
I've heard that the stock is 1.5mm exactly and they round to .6 inches but it's so stinking close it doesn't matter.
Hope it all works out for you; I'm going to be putting in an order with them too.
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 18 June 2015, 17:11:44
Apart from the stabilisers, I think getting the plate closer to 1.6mm improves the switch rigidity, at 1.5mm the switch is able to wiggle a bit, I don't know after what point the switches will be unable to latch on, however I will probably try 1.6mm next
Overall there is an incredible grip with all components, once soldered, I think switches will require in-place destruction to be removed/replaced - which is what I want - hate wiggling/crooked/displaced switches/keycaps
Post by: heedpantsnow on Thu, 18 June 2015, 17:44:20
By the way I perfected my costar stab integration with a 3d printed plate, without any modifications, after printing, I only graze the top/left/right side of the cutouts, leaving the bottom part as it is, my latest prototype had the best spacebar I've used, hope I can be this lucky with my final plates :)
Apart from the stabilisers, I think getting the plate closer to 1.6mm improves the switch rigidity, at 1.5mm the switch is able to wiggle a bit, I don't know after what point the switches will be unable to latch on, however I will probably try 1.6mm next
Overall there is an incredible grip with all components, once soldered, I think switches will require in-place destruction to be removed/replaced - which is what I want - hate wiggling/crooked/displaced switches/keycaps
Are you hand wiring or pcb? I ask cause I would imagine that the pcb would stabilize the wiggling switches somewhat.
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 18 June 2015, 18:02:33
By the way I perfected my costar stab integration with a 3d printed plate, without any modifications, after printing, I only graze the top/left/right side of the cutouts, leaving the bottom part as it is, my latest prototype had the best spacebar I've used, hope I can be this lucky with my final plates :)
Apart from the stabilisers, I think getting the plate closer to 1.6mm improves the switch rigidity, at 1.5mm the switch is able to wiggle a bit, I don't know after what point the switches will be unable to latch on, however I will probably try 1.6mm next
Overall there is an incredible grip with all components, once soldered, I think switches will require in-place destruction to be removed/replaced - which is what I want - hate wiggling/crooked/displaced switches/keycaps
Are you hand wiring or pcb? I ask cause I would imagine that the pcb would stabilize the wiggling switches somewhat.
pcb, but it's still nice to have a plate that takes care of the initial placement
at this point I'm not sure whether I should cut off the PCB-mount feet of the switches, otherwise they are probably going to latch on like trees - and since the plate already does a great job at holding the switches, the pcb-mounts might make things harder with no gain
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 20 June 2015, 09:13:17
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 23 June 2015, 12:37:09
Also note that you can fit 2-3 plates on their "size 2" stock I believe.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 23 June 2015, 12:37:36
http://blog.ponoko.com/2015/06/09/48310/
Post by: jonlorusso on Tue, 07 July 2015, 09:11:37
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 July 2015, 15:01:00
When I attempt to create a plate with a 6u spacebar, the stabilizer holes appear directly adjacent to the switch hole. Changing the size to 6.25u results in properly placed stabilizer mount holes. Is this by design? Is there something I can do so that I end up with properly placed stabilizers?
That is not normal. I will look into that. Thanks for reporting that...
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 July 2015, 15:03:13
When I attempt to create a plate with a 6u spacebar, the stabilizer holes appear directly adjacent to the switch hole. Changing the size to 6.25u results in properly placed stabilizer mount holes. Is this by design? Is there something I can do so that I end up with properly placed stabilizers?
That is not normal. I will look into that. Thanks for reporting that...
Ok, I lied. That is the expected behavior because I don't have the 6u stabilizer configured. Do you know what the stem center placement is for the 6u stab?
This is what I have configured right now:
Code: [Select]
self.stabs = {
"300":19.05, # 3 unit
"400":28.575, # 4 unit
"450":34.671, # 4.5 unit
"550":42.8625, # 5.5 unit
"625":50, # 6.25 unit
"650":52.38, # 6.5 unit
"700":57.15, # 7 unit
"800":66.675, # 8 unit
"900":66.675, # 9 unit
"1000":66.675 # 10 unit
}
Edit: The reason it behaves this way is because if you specify a key that is >=2u and it does not match any of the entries in the self.stabs object, then it will default to the 2u stabilizer cutout...
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Tue, 07 July 2015, 16:26:42
6× spacebars exists in 3 varieties, but IIRC the most common is the asymmetrical one (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_57mm_and_38mm_apart.29).
Quote
6 units (114mm wide, 3 keymounts, 57mm and 38mm apart)
Three keymounts, one middle mount 0.5 units (9.525mm) right from centre, left 3 units (57.15mm) and right 2 units (38.1mm) apart from middle mount. The stabilizer center-to-center is 95mm.
mounts from left to right at
- 0.5 units
- 3.5 units
- 5.5 units
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:58:44
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 July 2015, 15:40:15
Question, aren't the screw holes here abit too close to the rim? They are pretty standard 2mm screw holes.
(Attachment Link)
You need to specify an X padding and Y padding when using the sandwich case. The screw hole is placed in the middle of the X pad and Y pad. Let me know if you have issues getting it to work.
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 July 2015, 15:42:46
There is an entry on Deskthority's Wiki with all known spacebars dimensions: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions
6× spacebars exists in 3 varieties, but IIRC the most common is the asymmetrical one (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_57mm_and_38mm_apart.29).Quote6 units (114mm wide, 3 keymounts, 57mm and 38mm apart)
Three keymounts, one middle mount 0.5 units (9.525mm) right from centre, left 3 units (57.15mm) and right 2 units (38.1mm) apart from middle mount. The stabilizer center-to-center is 95mm.
mounts from left to right at
- 0.5 units
- 3.5 units
- 5.5 units
Yes, I used the details from the DT wiki post for all of my measurements. I think the reason I didn't implement a 6u stabilizer is because I was not sure which to choose and I did not have the capability to do non-center stem or asymmetrical spacebar stabilizer cutouts.
I can revisit this issue, but I am not entirely sure how I am going to solve it just yet...
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 July 2015, 15:53:46
If you look at the Cherry MX spec (http://cherryswitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Keymodule_MX_EN.pdf) (at the very bottom), you will see that the 2u stabilizer cutout is different than all of the spacebar (>=3u) stabilizer cutouts. Namely, the channel between the stabilizer and the switch is larger for the 2u than the spacebar cutouts. Is there a reason for this? In my experience the Cherry Plate mount stabilizers could really use the extra support in using the smaller channel.
The reason I ask is because I am almost finished my complete rewrite of this tool and right now I am using the 'spacebar' style cutouts for all of the cutouts. I can change this, but I personally thing it is probably better this way. Thoughts...
Here are some SVG plates using the new tool (not final):
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 July 2015, 16:42:59
Post by: Eszett on Thu, 09 July 2015, 02:41:52
Another question. When choosing the option "sandwhich", can you tell me how much height both middle plates have in "swill's plate builder"? I'm asking, because AFAIK the room inside the case between top and bottom plate, which is needed for switches, controller, etc. should be something around 12mm in height.
Post by: scott_squires on Thu, 09 July 2015, 09:43:13
It is all javascript on the browser side, so it is rather fast (basically instant... though I haven't tested it on a super slow computer). I posted a thread for it at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73418.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73418.0). I'll leave it at that, so as not to hijack swill's thread.
Post by: shaymdev on Thu, 09 July 2015, 09:53:35
I'm not sure about how the tool works but I know you can get away with a much thinner keyboard if you want to put in a little more effort. For example, if you have a 1.5mm switch plate you could have just 6mm of spacer. The method is described here:
Another question. When choosing the option "sandwhich", can you tell me how much height both middle plates have in "swill's plate builder"? I'm asking, because AFAIK the room inside the case between top and bottom plate, which is needed for switches, controller, etc. should be something around 12mm in height.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70079.msg1692751.msg#1692751
Post by: swill on Thu, 09 July 2015, 11:04:41
Hi swill. Thanks, you were right, I added too less padding around the screw holes. Now (6mm padding width and 6mm padding height) it's fine.
Another question. When choosing the option "sandwhich", can you tell me how much height both middle plates have in "swill's plate builder"? I'm asking, because AFAIK the room inside the case between top and bottom plate, which is needed for switches, controller, etc. should be something around 12mm in height.
I covered that a bit in this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1730476;topicseen#msg1730476
It depends on how you are wiring up your board and if you are putting the controller inside the case.
Post by: swill on Thu, 09 July 2015, 11:27:11
I wrote a similar tool: Keyboard CAD Assistant (http://www.keyboardcad.com/)
It is all javascript on the browser side, so it is rather fast (basically instant... though I haven't tested it on a super slow computer). I posted a thread for it at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73418.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73418.0). I'll leave it at that, so as not to hijack swill's thread.
Good to see another project like this. I am about to launch a new builder which is also builds the cad files pretty much instantly. :)
Post by: Eszett on Fri, 10 July 2015, 00:20:41
— sandwich build, without PCB, hand wired and Teensy 2.0
— top plate material & thickness: 1,5mm brushed steel (ordered from geerscutting.com)
— middle layers material & thickness: 2 x 7mm acryl
— screw holes: 12 x 3mm
— rounded corner radius: 3mm
— padding: 6mm
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 16:08:09
@swill Thanks for support. (So these are the specs, I'm going for.)
— sandwich build, without PCB, hand wired and Teensy 2.0
— top plate material & thickness: 1,5mm brushed steel (ordered from geerscutting.com)
— middle layers material & thickness: 2 x 7mm acryl
— screw holes: 12 x 3mm
— rounded corner radius: 3mm
— padding: 6mm
Looking good to me. Post your build log if you do one. :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 16:20:52
I have just released a new version of the builder which is blazing fast!
This update is a complete rebuild of the tool from scratch. I completely removed the CAD engine from under the hood and developed my own implementation. I am now writing the export files directly from the core logic rather than handling the exporting of the drawing through a CAD engine. This has given me a lot more control of what I put in the files and it is about 1000x faster than the old tool. I have also simplified the deployment/update procedure making it much easier for me to implement features and deploy them. I can also scale out horizontally without any hassle if the need arrises.
Now that I have released this complete rewrite, I am open to adding features again. I didn't want to work on features in the old tool since it was going to be replaced, so I wanted to get this new tool out before addressing features.
If you have feature requests, now is the time to refresh my memory and get them in my queue.
Hope you all enjoy...
Let me know if you have any issues with the tool.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 10 July 2015, 16:25:52
Post by: jonlorusso on Fri, 10 July 2015, 16:54:39
Quote
If you have feature requests, now is the time to refresh my memory and get them in my queue.
I often find myself adding a trackpoint hole as a post-processing step. i may be part of a small minority of people who use/add trackpoints to mechs so perhaps not general enough to include, but wanted to throw it out there.
also I wanted to ask what the possibility of -generating- a PCB design based on based on the input or output to your tool? I only hand wire and have never designed a PCB so I wouldn't know if it's too complex for a tool like this.
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 10 July 2015, 19:13:13
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Fri, 10 July 2015, 19:34:52
Generating a PCB would be pretty tricky. Routing for different styles (ortholinear vs each way of staggering, plus odd layouts) makes that pretty challenging. I've been working on learning to make my own keyboard pcbs and it's a challenge to get everything routed. If swill can pull it off in his spare time I will be VERY impressed.There are other issues: are you going to use a Teensy? An Arduino? An embedded microcontroller? What are the dimensions of the board? Will it have holes/slots other than those of the switches?
The number of variables are too many to make an automated PCB generator. And there is also the problem of auto-routing algorithms producing crap traces. The really good algorithms costs a small fortune, in the thousands of dollars.
Post by: jonlorusso on Fri, 10 July 2015, 19:52:50
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 20:49:13
Great work, swill!
Thanks. I need to send you a few drawings for you to review and make sure there is nothing spectacularly wrong with them. :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 20:53:11
QuoteIf you have feature requests, now is the time to refresh my memory and get them in my queue.
I often find myself adding a trackpoint hole as a post-processing step. i may be part of a small minority of people who use/add trackpoints to mechs so perhaps not general enough to include, but wanted to throw it out there.
also I wanted to ask what the possibility of -generating- a PCB design based on based on the input or output to your tool? I only hand wire and have never designed a PCB so I wouldn't know if it's too complex for a tool like this.
The trackpoint is an interesting idea. Is it pretty consistent in terms of placement and size and such? That does not seem like a huge deal to add.
As for the PCB generator. This is something that I have been thinking about for a long time. If I did this, I would probably start with suggesting a handwired matrix and then working from there. If I can get a hand wired matrix to be pretty solid, I would consider looking into getting it into an actual PCB format. I am also looking at potentially outputting a hex file to flash to the controller assuming you use the matrix I provide. This is not an easy feature though, so this would be many months off if I do tackle it. Good ideas though...
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 20:55:10
Generating a PCB would be pretty tricky. Routing for different styles (ortholinear vs each way of staggering, plus odd layouts) makes that pretty challenging. I've been working on learning to make my own keyboard pcbs and it's a challenge to get everything routed. If swill can pull it off in his spare time I will be VERY impressed.There are other issues: are you going to use a Teensy? An Arduino? An embedded microcontroller? What are the dimensions of the board? Will it have holes/slots other than those of the switches?
The number of variables are too many to make an automated PCB generator. And there is also the problem of auto-routing algorithms producing crap traces. The really good algorithms costs a small fortune, in the thousands of dollars.
Yes, exactly. This is why I would start with a hand wired matrix and you would pick what type of controller you would be using and I would basically just specify what pins to solder to on the controller (whichever one you pick from the ones I support). This would be a great start and would also allow me to start looking into generating the hex for it, but this is very complex...
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 20:59:25
one other fairly time consuming thing I've found myself doing quite often is creating a reinforcement plate when using 1.5mm acrylic. the reinforcement plate is identical to the generated plate but with slightly larger switch holes and gets mounted directly underneath the switch plate. I can provide an example of this description isn't clear. this would likely be very useful to everyone using acrylic as 1.5mm is not really strong enough on its own, but thicker sheets need glue because the switches do not snap in.
I already have this as a hidden feature of the tool. I have not explained it very well, but it is documented here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1685418#msg1685418
One thing I need to do still to make it absolutely viable is to also grow the costar stabilizer cutouts. This functionality only exists for the square switch cutouts and I am going to be adding the grow variables to the costar as well (not implemented yet) because you need extra space for the costar stabilizers to fit. Let me know if you have problems understanding how it works or if you have more questions or suggestions to make it better...
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Fri, 10 July 2015, 21:08:04
Yes, exactly. This is why I would start with a hand wired matrix and you would pick what type of controller you would be using and I would basically just specify what pins to solder to on the controller (whichever one you pick from the ones I support). This would be a great start and would also allow me to start looking into generating the hex for it, but this is very complex...If I'm not mistaken there is a drag-and-drop firmware generator for handwired keyboards using a Teensy. I believe I saw that on Planck's site, but I can be wrong.
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 21:13:59
Yes, exactly. This is why I would start with a hand wired matrix and you would pick what type of controller you would be using and I would basically just specify what pins to solder to on the controller (whichever one you pick from the ones I support). This would be a great start and would also allow me to start looking into generating the hex for it, but this is very complex...If I'm not mistaken there is a drag-and-drop firmware generator for handwired keyboards using a Teensy. I believe I saw that on Planck's site, but I can be wrong.
oh thats interesting. I will need to looking for that to see how it works... :)
Post by: scott_squires on Fri, 10 July 2015, 21:31:38
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 July 2015, 21:40:03
That's a nice performance boost. Big improvement!
Ya, pretty much night and day. Complicated layouts that used to take like 15 minutes to render now take about 2-3 seconds. :)
Post by: nephiel on Sat, 11 July 2015, 04:35:36
I second the TrackPoint idea. Most non-split keyboards have it between the G, H and B keys, but this is all about custom building - some prefer it between H, J, N, and then there are split layouts, where it can be near a thumb, or even have more than one. At the plate level it's just a 9mm round hole (smaller if you use a thinner post) so it could go anywhere.QuoteIf you have feature requests, now is the time to refresh my memory and get them in my queue.
I often find myself adding a trackpoint hole as a post-processing step. i may be part of a small minority of people who use/add trackpoints to mechs so perhaps not general enough to include, but wanted to throw it out there.
also I wanted to ask what the possibility of -generating- a PCB design based on based on the input or output to your tool? I only hand wire and have never designed a PCB so I wouldn't know if it's too complex for a tool like this.
The trackpoint is an interesting idea. Is it pretty consistent in terms of placement and size and such? That does not seem like a huge deal to add.
IMHO the best way to go about this is to have a special TrackPoint key added to the Layout Editor tool, and then have the Plate Builder draw that as a 9mm hole by default. Then maybe add an option to the Plate Builder to specify the hole diameter.
Post by: swill on Sat, 11 July 2015, 13:06:03
Getting a trackpoint added to the layout editor may be tough. The source is available, so I could do a pull request, but I have not been able to get in touch with the author. Also, the track point is a bit hard to represent in the concept of the rows because it lives between them.I second the TrackPoint idea. Most non-split keyboards have it between the G, H and B keys, but this is all about custom building - some prefer it between H, J, N, and then there are split layouts, where it can be near a thumb, or even have more than one. At the plate level it's just a 9mm round hole (smaller if you use a thinner post) so it could go anywhere.QuoteIf you have feature requests, now is the time to refresh my memory and get them in my queue.
I often find myself adding a trackpoint hole as a post-processing step. i may be part of a small minority of people who use/add trackpoints to mechs so perhaps not general enough to include, but wanted to throw it out there.
also I wanted to ask what the possibility of -generating- a PCB design based on based on the input or output to your tool? I only hand wire and have never designed a PCB so I wouldn't know if it's too complex for a tool like this.
The trackpoint is an interesting idea. Is it pretty consistent in terms of placement and size and such? That does not seem like a huge deal to add.
IMHO the best way to go about this is to have a special TrackPoint key added to the Layout Editor tool, and then have the Plate Builder draw that as a 9mm hole by default. Then maybe add an option to the Plate Builder to specify the hole diameter.
I was thinking of doing it kind of like "below row '#' and right of key '#'". This would let you place it anywhere in the layout. I could use '0' to be above the first row or left of a first key in order to be able to put it anywhere.
That was my idea. Then I would not have to worry about figuring out how to make it fit into the raw layout. Does this make sense?
Post by: nephiel on Sat, 11 July 2015, 18:09:26
BTW, the author updated it recently so I guess he's active.
Post by: jonlorusso on Sat, 11 July 2015, 18:21:42
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Sat, 11 July 2015, 18:49:06
Found it, it was indeed on Planck's site: http://planckkeyboard.com/matrix.htmlYes, exactly. This is why I would start with a hand wired matrix and you would pick what type of controller you would be using and I would basically just specify what pins to solder to on the controller (whichever one you pick from the ones I support). This would be a great start and would also allow me to start looking into generating the hex for it, but this is very complex...If I'm not mistaken there is a drag-and-drop firmware generator for handwired keyboards using a Teensy. I believe I saw that on Planck's site, but I can be wrong.
oh thats interesting. I will need to looking for that to see how it works... :)
Post by: swill on Sat, 11 July 2015, 19:38:34
The layout editor allows moving and resizing keys in 0.25u increments so placing them in between rows is possible, I've been messing with this for a while: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/51ac87a7fc9215054ed4dd40f9f3e686
BTW, the author updated it recently so I guess he's active.
I understand what you are doing here. You are basically making it it's own row.
Code: [Select]
[{r:45,rx:6.75,ry:3,y:-0.25,x:-0.25,c:"#cc0000",t:"#000000",p:"TrackPoint Cap",a:4,w:0.5,h:0.5},""],To be honest, this probably would break my builder, but I would have to try.
It is much easier for me (and the end user) if they don't have to modify the layout in order to add the trackpoint. It is easier for them if they just have to count and say "I want it here below row 2 and right of key 6". But that might not be flexible enough since I would just be centering it in the space there.
Post by: swill on Sat, 11 July 2015, 19:41:49
interesting. swill, given what you are doing with space bar matching, could you not assume a .25u key is a trackpoint, or perhaps more generally, a (round/screw) hole? this might be useful for things other than trackpoints (eg., non-standard mid-plate mounting screws). futhermore .25u is too small for any switch, so normally I'd assume you are just ignoring these keys?
If you specify it, I draw it. This is how I can support things like both styles of caps lock and such. So if you draw two keys that take up the same space, I will draw two keys that take up the same space. If I try to get too fancy with making interpretations in the parsing logic things will get more complex. Its not to say it can't be done, but I am not sure its the right place to do it in this case.
Just for the record. I will always make the minimum width of a key 1u. I could make the 1u configurable, but right now it is set to 19.05mm.
Post by: swill on Sat, 11 July 2015, 19:43:55
Found it, it was indeed on Planck's site: http://planckkeyboard.com/matrix.htmlYes, exactly. This is why I would start with a hand wired matrix and you would pick what type of controller you would be using and I would basically just specify what pins to solder to on the controller (whichever one you pick from the ones I support). This would be a great start and would also allow me to start looking into generating the hex for it, but this is very complex...If I'm not mistaken there is a drag-and-drop firmware generator for handwired keyboards using a Teensy. I believe I saw that on Planck's site, but I can be wrong.
oh thats interesting. I will need to looking for that to see how it works... :)
Very cool. Thanks for sharing this. I will have a look over it when I have some time. Do you know who the author is (I am assuming they are on here or DT).
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Sat, 11 July 2015, 21:26:23
Very cool. Thanks for sharing this. I will have a look over it when I have some time. Do you know who the author is (I am assuming they are on here or DT).I think it was made by jackhumbert himself. If not, he knows who did it.
Post by: abjr on Sun, 12 July 2015, 00:20:01
Post by: swill on Sun, 12 July 2015, 14:09:05
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.I will look into it. Thanks. It may be because I converted polygons to lines when I created the dxf. I will try without changing the polygons.
Post by: swill on Sun, 12 July 2015, 14:10:24
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.Can you send me your layout so I can be working with the same data (to simplify debugging).
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 07:35:29
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.
Strange, I am not able to reproduce this with your layout. I am getting: "The quoting system detected 0 non-closed contours."
I tested each switch type and most combinations with stabilizers. What switch and stabilizer cutouts are you using? Can you test again and let me know if you get the same result?
Post by: scott_squires on Mon, 13 July 2015, 12:44:13
Very cool. Thanks for sharing this. I will have a look over it when I have some time. Do you know who the author is (I am assuming they are on here or DT).
I think it was made by jackhumbert himself. If not, he knows who did it.
Yes, Jack Humbert wrote it. He mostly participates at reddit (https://www.reddit.com/user/jackhumbert).
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 12:45:31
Thx. :)Very cool. Thanks for sharing this. I will have a look over it when I have some time. Do you know who the author is (I am assuming they are on here or DT).
I think it was made by jackhumbert himself. If not, he knows who did it.
Yes, Jack Humbert wrote it. He mostly participates at reddit (https://www.reddit.com/user/jackhumbert).
Post by: abjr on Mon, 13 July 2015, 15:24:30
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.
Strange, I am not able to reproduce this with your layout. I am getting: "The quoting system detected 0 non-closed contours."
I tested each switch type and most combinations with stabilizers. What switch and stabilizer cutouts are you using? Can you test again and let me know if you get the same result?
Standard cutout
Costar Only
Sandwich
number of holes=8, diameter=3
width padding=7
height padding=7
plate corner=2
kerf=off
Downloaded the DXF and uploaded it to BBS and I get: "The quoting system detected 76 non-closed contours."
I'll send you the .dxf as well if you like.
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 15:30:14
OK. I will test this as soon as I get on the train.Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.
Strange, I am not able to reproduce this with your layout. I am getting: "The quoting system detected 0 non-closed contours."
I tested each switch type and most combinations with stabilizers. What switch and stabilizer cutouts are you using? Can you test again and let me know if you get the same result?
Standard cutout
Costar Only
Sandwich
number of holes=8, diameter=3
width padding=7
height padding=7
plate corner=2
kerf=off
Downloaded the DXF and uploaded it to BBS and I get: "The quoting system detected 76 non-closed contours."
I'll send you the .dxf as well if you like.
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 15:51:44
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.
Strange, I am not able to reproduce this with your layout. I am getting: "The quoting system detected 0 non-closed contours."
I tested each switch type and most combinations with stabilizers. What switch and stabilizer cutouts are you using? Can you test again and let me know if you get the same result?
Standard cutout
Costar Only
Sandwich
number of holes=8, diameter=3
width padding=7
height padding=7
plate corner=2
kerf=off
Downloaded the DXF and uploaded it to BBS and I get: "The quoting system detected 76 non-closed contours."
I'll send you the .dxf as well if you like.
I have reproduced the problem. It looks like both the rounded corners and the circles are causing the problem. In this case you get 76 with both rounded corners and the sandwich plate. If you turn off rounded corners, you get 44. If I draw without holes or rounded corners I don't have any issues. I will review these findings with Simon at BBS. I know he uses the same software to convert an SVG to DXF that I use, so I will see if he has some tips for me. Thanks for the heads up...
Post by: Zustiur on Mon, 13 July 2015, 21:33:24
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 22:09:10
If you're still seeking suggestions for the next improvement, I have to put forward rotated keys as my preferred option. Rotation as per ergodox. Useful to many.
Yes, this is one that is on my list for sure. I do support rotating keys and stabilizers (independently) in place around their center, but I do not yet support rotating a cluster of keys around a point. I will be looking into this one soon as it is an often requested feature. :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 13 July 2015, 22:10:47
Thanks Eszett for the bug report. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 14 July 2015, 23:01:04
Just an FYI, when using the new version of the builder and then uploading the resulting DXF to BigBlueSaw, I now get an error such as "The quoting system detected 69 non-closed contours." This resulted in a drawing that contained only the switch and stab cutouts, no mount holes or plate outline are detected.
Strange, I am not able to reproduce this with your layout. I am getting: "The quoting system detected 0 non-closed contours."
I tested each switch type and most combinations with stabilizers. What switch and stabilizer cutouts are you using? Can you test again and let me know if you get the same result?
Standard cutout
Costar Only
Sandwich
number of holes=8, diameter=3
width padding=7
height padding=7
plate corner=2
kerf=off
Downloaded the DXF and uploaded it to BBS and I get: "The quoting system detected 76 non-closed contours."
I'll send you the .dxf as well if you like.
This is fixed!!!
Wanted to give a big shout out to Simon at BBS for the help tracking down the source of the problem. There were issues converting the 'fill' color when exporting to DXF, so I have removed the fill color. I have retested your layout and it is working perfectly now. :)
Enjoy...
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 15 July 2015, 03:37:27
Awesome work!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73282.0
Post by: swill on Wed, 15 July 2015, 10:04:54
I used this today for my keyboard, I haven't put it together yet, but this made it soo easy. I took my layout and within an two hours had it all cut (low powered laser).
Awesome work!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73282.0
Nice, I am glad it was helpful. :) I have been slowly chipping away at it. It is pretty solid now, but I am still looking to add more features. :)
Post by: chzel on Wed, 15 July 2015, 18:10:04
In the old version of the tool, I could "stack" switches (for example a normal CapsLock and a stepped one) and the generator would ignore the superfluous lines and make the correct cutout for both switches. Same for spacebar cutouts.
Also the middle hole for a poker mount 60% is broken in the same way.
Below is the layout I tested with.
Thank you for your great job!
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock",{x:-1.75,g:true,w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"",{x:0.5,g:false},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{x:-3},"",{x:2,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 06:26:15
Perhaps this has been already answered, but I didn't find anything!I will have to look at that functionality. It is definitely harder for me to do now. I will have to see if I can figure out a way to support stacking keys again.
In the old version of the tool, I could "stack" switches (for example a normal CapsLock and a stepped one) and the generator would ignore the superfluous lines and make the correct cutout for both switches. Same for spacebar cutouts.
Also the middle hole for a poker mount 60% is broken in the same way.
Below is the layout I tested with.
Thank you for your great job!Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock",{x:-1.75,g:true,w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"",{x:0.5,g:false},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{x:-3},"",{x:2,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
What is wrong with the poker case option? I have tested that quite a bit and I thought it was working correctly. Can you send me a screenshot?
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 07:54:04
Perhaps this has been already answered, but I didn't find anything!
In the old version of the tool, I could "stack" switches (for example a normal CapsLock and a stepped one) and the generator would ignore the superfluous lines and make the correct cutout for both switches. Same for spacebar cutouts.
Also the middle hole for a poker mount 60% is broken in the same way.
Below is the layout I tested with.
Thank you for your great job!Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock",{x:-1.75,g:true,w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"",{x:0.5,g:false},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{x:-3},"",{x:2,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
I had a look. I should be able to fix the stacked keys, but it will take me a bit of time because I have to actually write an algorithm to do a union of key cutouts if two adjacent keys will overlap. Hopefully I can find a way to do this without too much of a challenge.
As for the center hole in the poker case, I may not be able to fix that easily. Circles are very hard to do polygon union with since they are not technically polygons. Also, the keys and the holes are drawn at very different parts of the program and it will be hard for me to determine if there are boundary crossings and be able adjust for them when it comes to the holes. That one we may just have to deal with. A laser cutter should not have a problem with it as it is drawn.
I will see if I can come up with a solution for the stacked key union asap...
Post by: abjr on Thu, 16 July 2015, 10:52:00
This is fixed!!!
Wanted to give a big shout out to Simon at BBS for the help tracking down the source of the problem. There were issues converting the 'fill' color when exporting to DXF, so I have removed the fill color. I have retested your layout and it is working perfectly now. :)
Enjoy...
You're the man. Thanks to Simon as well :) Also, it's cool to see Big Blue Saw listed as a sponsor on BattleBots ;-)
Post by: chzel on Thu, 16 July 2015, 11:28:10
Post by: Arvid on Thu, 16 July 2015, 12:04:40
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
- Big Blue Saw cannot currently provide automatic quotes for parts greater than 47 x 35 inches in size. Please contact us for a quote on your part.
Code: [Select]
[{c:"#b81b24",a:7},"ESC",{c:"#c4c8c5"},"1","2","3","4","5","6","7","8","9","0","?\n+","`\n´","°",{c:"#909596"},"BSPC"],
[{w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#c4c8c5"},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P",{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\nÅ",{a:7},"^\n¨\n\n\n\n\n^",{x:0.25,c:"#0075ad",w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"ENTER"],
[{c:"#909596",w:1.75},"CTRL",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L","Ö\n;\n\n\n\n\nÖ","Ä\n'","*\n'\n\n\n\n\n*"],
[{c:"#909596",w:1.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#cccccc"},">\n<","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",";\n,",":\n.",{a:5},"_\n-",{c:"#909596",a:7,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN 3"],
[{x:1.5},"SUPER",{w:1.5},"ALT",{w:1.5},"FN 1",{w:3},"",{w:1.5},"FN 2",{w:1.5},"ALT","SUPER"]
Is there anything I can do as a CAD-Illiterate to fix these issues?
Post by: chzel on Thu, 16 July 2015, 12:20:16
Post by: Arvid on Thu, 16 July 2015, 12:34:17
If I recall correctly you need to open the dxf in LibreCAD and set the drawing dimension to mm instead of inches, and save.Since that message was removed from Swill's site I thought that was not needed anymore, but I will try.
EDIT:
It seems to have worked a bit I get these 'errors' instead:
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:22:50
Speaking of CAD-illiterate, so I get these problems when I upload the .dxf to Blue Saw after using the playe building tool:I am using Switch type 2, cherry stabilizers, Poker as case type, 2.5 mm as rounded corners and this is the layout I am trying to get cut:
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
- Big Blue Saw cannot currently provide automatic quotes for parts greater than 47 x 35 inches in size. Please contact us for a quote on your part.
Code: [Select][{c:"#b81b24",a:7},"ESC",{c:"#c4c8c5"},"1","2","3","4","5","6","7","8","9","0","?\n+","`\n´","°",{c:"#909596"},"BSPC"],
[{w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#c4c8c5"},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P",{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\nÅ",{a:7},"^\n¨\n\n\n\n\n^",{x:0.25,c:"#0075ad",w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"ENTER"],
[{c:"#909596",w:1.75},"CTRL",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L","Ö\n;\n\n\n\n\nÖ","Ä\n'","*\n'\n\n\n\n\n*"],
[{c:"#909596",w:1.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#cccccc"},">\n<","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",";\n,",":\n.",{a:5},"_\n-",{c:"#909596",a:7,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN 3"],
[{x:1.5},"SUPER",{w:1.5},"ALT",{w:1.5},"FN 1",{w:3},"",{w:1.5},"FN 2",{w:1.5},"ALT","SUPER"]
Is there anything I can do as a CAD-Illiterate to fix these issues?
You have to click the "Convert to Millimeters" button when you upload the DXF to BBS. That will get rid of the "Big Blue Saw cannot currently provide automatic quotes for parts greater than 47 x 35 inches in size" issue.
Make sure you use a recent DXF download and you don't have any "The quoting system detected # non-closed contours" issues. I made a change recently that fixes that.
If you are still having problems, let me know and I will see what I can figure out. I suspect the fact that it is not in MM right now is what is causing your problems...
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:24:15
If I recall correctly you need to open the dxf in LibreCAD and set the drawing dimension to mm instead of inches, and save.
Not any more. You can now just click on the "Convert to Millimeters" in the BBS. The measurements in the DXF file are in MM, but the units are not included (yet). BBS can convert it to MM for you though, they just default to inches...
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:25:29
If I recall correctly you need to open the dxf in LibreCAD and set the drawing dimension to mm instead of inches, and save.Since that message was removed from Swill's site I thought that was not needed anymore, but I will try.
EDIT:
It seems to have worked a bit I get these 'errors' instead:
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
What case type are you using? The poker case with the standard cutouts? I will test when on the train...
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:50:20
If I recall correctly you need to open the dxf in LibreCAD and set the drawing dimension to mm instead of inches, and save.Since that message was removed from Swill's site I thought that was not needed anymore, but I will try.
EDIT:
It seems to have worked a bit I get these 'errors' instead:
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
Ok, I am pretty sure you are using the Poker case. Right? And you are using the middle cutout (MX and Alps compatible). Right?
In this case the center hole crosses the boundary of the switches to each side of it. I did not realize this was a problem until now. The problem is only with the Poker case and the middle switch cutout. I will see what I can do to fix this.
Thanks for letting me know...
Post by: Arvid on Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:56:59
If I recall correctly you need to open the dxf in LibreCAD and set the drawing dimension to mm instead of inches, and save.Since that message was removed from Swill's site I thought that was not needed anymore, but I will try.
EDIT:
It seems to have worked a bit I get these 'errors' instead:
- You have areas inside the part which cross to outside of the part.
- The outside perimeter to be cut could not be computed.
- You have areas inside the part which cross each other.
Ok, I am pretty sure you are using the Poker case. Right? And you are using the middle cutout (MX and Alps compatible). Right?
In this case the center hole crosses the boundary of the switches to each side of it. I did not realize this was a problem until now. The problem is only with the Poker case and the middle switch cutout. I will see what I can do to fix this.
Thanks for letting me know...
Sorry I should have quoted my earlier post, yes I am using the Poker case and the middle switch cut out.
Post by: chzel on Thu, 16 July 2015, 17:22:10
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 16 July 2015, 17:56:42
You may want to add a note that if you don't want holes, 0 causes an error, however you can leave it blank and it will work.
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 21:22:35
I forgot to mention that I was using type 2 cutout as well when I said the middle hole is broken!
ya, I did some testing on the way home from work and I now better understand the problem. I am thinking about how to solve this once and for all...
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 July 2015, 21:24:38
Just something I found.
You may want to add a note that if you don't want holes, 0 causes an error, however you can leave it blank and it will work.
I will work on a solution and hopefully I can have a solution in place by the weekend. Its only the poker plate that breaks with the middle (default) switch type. Both other switch types work with the poker case.
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 July 2015, 18:12:56
I have rolled a pretty major set of changes. As a few of you have pointed out there were some bugs with the way I was drawing the SVG that would result in lines of different polygons crossing each other. BBS would throw a bunch of error and basically say "what are you dumb, go fix your ****" when you uploaded those files.
I am now going through every polygon that I draw and I am checking if there are boundary crossings and it will do a union operation on the polygons if there are. I then take the outermost edge of the plate and do a difference with all of the internal polygons to make sure that none of the inside polygons cross the outer boundary (which can happen with the poker case).
These are the problems fixed:
- I now support overlapping keys again like the old tool did (both capslock and off-center stem spacebars).
- I now fully support the MX + Alps switch cutout with the Poker case (center hole now works correctly)
(https://objects-east.cloud.ca/v1/729bfb2c76f7488798aeff5bacd426f8/swillkb/4a6d9c61a197b8103d86aabf2f34863638b94d65/switch_4a6d9c61a197b8103d86aabf2f34863638b94d65.svg)
The tool is slightly slower, but it is not a huge difference.
Thanks for the bug reports everyone. I really appreciate that you guys telling me when you run into issues so I can fix them for everyone...
Perhaps this has been already answered, but I didn't find anything!
In the old version of the tool, I could "stack" switches (for example a normal CapsLock and a stepped one) and the generator would ignore the superfluous lines and make the correct cutout for both switches. Same for spacebar cutouts.
Also the middle hole for a poker mount 60% is broken in the same way.
Below is the layout I tested with.
Thank you for your great job!Code: [Select]["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock",{x:-1.75,g:true,w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"",{x:0.5,g:false},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:6.25},"",{x:-3},"",{x:2,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Post by: suicidal_orange on Fri, 17 July 2015, 18:25:19
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 July 2015, 19:09:23
Updates sound great and this latest version is still much quicker than the old version :) The black on trans example above does not work well with the dark theme though - had to tilt my screen to work out what it was!
Haha, ya good point. :P
Post by: chzel on Fri, 17 July 2015, 19:29:26
I'll test tomorrow!
Just another detail, nit-picking actually.
When making the poker plate with a stepped CapsLock, the switch cutout almost touches the screw opening and gets blown when lasercutting (at least in my case). If you could make the screw hole a tad smaller, It would be great. Inserting the screw would still work with the hole 1mm shorter.
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 July 2015, 21:58:31
I have added support for the asymmetrical 6u space bar for all stabilizer styles.
Here is an example with one of my custom layouts.
(https://objects-east.cloud.ca/v1/729bfb2c76f7488798aeff5bacd426f8/swillkb/ce30aa315297aee9ea49edd421f1aba79c194a81/switch_ce30aa315297aee9ea49edd421f1aba79c194a81.svg)
As you can see, I have also added the ability to modify the cut line color. I have noticed that some laser cutters are picky about what colors are used in the SVG. If your cutter is picky about what the cut line color is, you can specify a new cut line color using this field now.
[attachimg=1]
I also added the ability to download an EPS file in case that is a download format that is interesting to anyone...
There is an entry on Deskthority's Wiki with all known spacebars dimensions: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions
6× spacebars exists in 3 varieties, but IIRC the most common is the asymmetrical one (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions#6_units_.28114mm_wide.2C_3_keymounts.2C_57mm_and_38mm_apart.29).Quote6 units (114mm wide, 3 keymounts, 57mm and 38mm apart)
Three keymounts, one middle mount 0.5 units (9.525mm) right from centre, left 3 units (57.15mm) and right 2 units (38.1mm) apart from middle mount. The stabilizer center-to-center is 95mm.
mounts from left to right at
- 0.5 units
- 3.5 units
- 5.5 units
I have made it 4.5mm in diameter rather than 5mm. I don't want to push it too much and if it breaks through its not the end of the world I don't think...
Great, thanks swill!
I'll test tomorrow!
Just another detail, nit-picking actually.
When making the poker plate with a stepped CapsLock, the switch cutout almost touches the screw opening and gets blown when lasercutting (at least in my case). If you could make the screw hole a tad smaller, It would be great. Inserting the screw would still work with the hole 1mm shorter.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Fri, 17 July 2015, 22:08:25
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 July 2015, 22:28:07
Updates sound great and this latest version is still much quicker than the old version :) The black on trans example above does not work well with the dark theme though - had to tilt my screen to work out what it was!
Fixed! Now you can output drawings in whatever color you want. :P
Post by: swill on Sat, 18 July 2015, 16:57:15
I have done a bunch of changes in this update:
- You can now specify the size of the poker holes + slots you want. This allows you to reduce the size to say 2.5mm and then use an M2 screw to mount the switch plate directly to the case with a standoff between.
- Added an "advanced" section for more technical options to keep the ui less cluttered.
- Fixed some issues that existed when setting the Kerf.
- Fixed some numeric validation issues.
Enjoy...
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Sat, 18 July 2015, 18:04:27
CUSTOM POKER HOLES + MORE...That's very useful! Thanks!
I have done a bunch of changes in this update:
- You can now specify the size of the poker holes + slots you want. This allows you to reduce the size to say 2.5mm and then use an M2 screw to mount the switch plate directly to the case with a standoff between.
- Fixed some issues that existed when setting the Kerf.
- Fixed some numeric validation issues.
Enjoy...
Post by: chzel on Sat, 18 July 2015, 18:13:22
The speed at which you implement suggestions is phenomenal!
Thanks!
Post by: swill on Sat, 18 July 2015, 19:49:36
You're great swill!Ya I have had a bit of time recently and have been getting into it again. Now you can set the poker hole size to whatever you want, so I set the default back to 5mm.
The speed at which you implement suggestions is phenomenal!
Thanks!
Been trying to get my head around supporting rotated clusters of keys to support layout like the ergodox. Soon enough.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 19 July 2015, 20:54:30
I use Tinkercad to get the plates ready for 3d-printing, I see now that the STL option is no longer provided, why is this // is it coming back?
Tried the .SVG one, however the dimensions are not compatible with Tinkercad out of the box, also for some reason all the switch cutouts were missing when I imported it
Going to try whether I can find a lightweight CAD program to convert the SVG to STL now, however, it would be great if the original functionality were restored
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 19 July 2015, 21:25:09
It would be great if the .STL is bought back, I also have no idea why TinkerCad interprets the .SVG as a block shape, but even if it worked, I'm guessing converting inches to mm's would be required with the .SVG too - it's possible to import the SVG - but it's much larger than it's needs to be and there are no holes on it
Edit: Well after digging in more, I have a better understanding of many things, yet I still have no idea how to convert a bunch of lines to a 2d or 3d shape, improved my freecad skills, yet the osx version crashes when I try to convert selections to 2d/3d shapes - otherwise I was going to just convert all faces to 3d shapes, convert the holes to be actual holes and export it all as .stl, but that couldn't happen because of the crashes
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 19 July 2015, 22:44:36
It worked, but you do need to rescale it after because that gets lost.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 19 July 2015, 23:18:22
What I did was download the svg, then tweak in Photoshop (fill in center, remove any extras), save as PNG, then use an online converter to convert it back to SVG (in monochrome), then import to Tinkercad.
It worked, but you do need to rescale it after because that gets lost.
That's a great idea, thank you
I've tested several things in Affinity Designer to make Tinkercad interpret the cutouts as holes, however none-worked, going to PNG route sounds logical but I was also worried about possible scaling issues, but I'm guessing if the builder's feature set stays the same, I guess I will end up doing the same
An Inch/MM option would also be great for the builder, there used to be a warning before, now I'm not sure what's the unit
Post by: swill on Sun, 19 July 2015, 23:52:53
Hi swill
I use Tinkercad to get the plates ready for 3d-printing, I see now that the STL option is no longer provided, why is this // is it coming back?
Tried the .SVG one, however the dimensions are not compatible with Tinkercad out of the box, also for some reason all the switch cutouts were missing when I imported it
Going to try whether I can find a lightweight CAD program to convert the SVG to STL now, however, it would be great if the original functionality were restored
I won't be adding back the ability to export an STL because I am only working in 2D now instead of 3D. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone wanted the STL format. I will create a YouTube video for how to convert the current SVG my tool exports to an STL file for you. I can probably get that video done for you tomorrow night. It takes about 3 or 4 minutes to do (depending on the complexity of your plate), but it will at least get you what you need...
Post by: swill on Sun, 19 July 2015, 23:55:04
What I did was download the svg, then tweak in Photoshop (fill in center, remove any extras), save as PNG, then use an online converter to convert it back to SVG (in monochrome), then import to Tinkercad.
It worked, but you do need to rescale it after because that gets lost.
That's a great idea, thank you
I've tested several things in Affinity Designer to make Tinkercad interpret the cutouts as holes, however none-worked, going to PNG route sounds logical but I was also worried about possible scaling issues, but I'm guessing if the builder's feature set stays the same, I guess I will end up doing the same
An Inch/MM option would also be great for the builder, there used to be a warning before, now I'm not sure what's the unit
All units are in MM as before...
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 20 July 2015, 00:07:21
Hi swill
I use Tinkercad to get the plates ready for 3d-printing, I see now that the STL option is no longer provided, why is this // is it coming back?
Tried the .SVG one, however the dimensions are not compatible with Tinkercad out of the box, also for some reason all the switch cutouts were missing when I imported it
Going to try whether I can find a lightweight CAD program to convert the SVG to STL now, however, it would be great if the original functionality were restored
I won't be adding back the ability to export an STL because I am only working in 2D now instead of 3D. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone wanted the STL format. I will create a YouTube video for how to convert the current SVG my tool exports to an STL file for you. I can probably get that video done for you tomorrow night. It takes about 3 or 4 minutes to do (depending on the complexity of your plate), but it will at least get you what you need...
Thanks, that would be awesome
Without knowing much about the formats, providing a Solid SVG might be a better long term solution, a pre-applied version of Leslieann's method as an output option, preferably in mm's (Like an 2D filled SVG)
Since the current SVG only consists of the outlines, it requires processing as you also pointed out and many of the CAD programs either doesn't exist on OSX, or bugged like FreeCAD I tested (Otherwise I think I was onto something :)
I guess all of these might also be possible by manually editing or programmatically processing the SVG too (for people like me that don't like using software much) - the SVG is pretty readable - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22579508/subtract-one-circle-from-another-in-svg - going to try to apply some subtraction methods in the meantime
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 20 July 2015, 00:55:19
What I did was download the svg, then tweak in Photoshop (fill in center, remove any extras), save as PNG, then use an online converter to convert it back to SVG (in monochrome), then import to Tinkercad.
It worked, but you do need to rescale it after because that gets lost.
That's a great idea, thank you
I've tested several things in Affinity Designer to make Tinkercad interpret the cutouts as holes, however none-worked, going to PNG route sounds logical but I was also worried about possible scaling issues, but I'm guessing if the builder's feature set stays the same, I guess I will end up doing the same
An Inch/MM option would also be great for the builder, there used to be a warning before, now I'm not sure what's the unit
All units are in MM as before...
It's probably an issue with Tinkercad once again - indeed they are MM
http://stackoverflow.com/a/22581434/914546
This method works by the way, it's pretty easy to apply too, I visually verify the plate, however Tinkercad reports the SVG as empty, I guess I can solve that issue one way or another, maybe import this filled SVG to a CAD program and process it somehow / maybe convert to .STL
By the way, are the switch 0.2mm switch cutout stroke-width's supposed to be extracted / or included in the plate? (I'm guessing 99% it's extraction)
Edit: Only browsers and GIMP recognises the mask syntax/method I used, Affinity Designer / CAD programs don't recognise it, so I probably eased the first photoshop step in Leslieann's method, I could export this as PNG, re-convert to SVG etc. but I won't risk losing details TL;DR: Awaiting your video :)
Edit 2: Here is the method with the plate output SVG: http://jsfiddle.net/9hst146u/ (only recognised at web and gimp)
Edit 3: The SVG to PNG to SVG conversion produces wobbled cutouts, so it doesn't work (used the first result online tool)
Post by: trauring on Mon, 20 July 2015, 01:56:15
Post by: chzel on Mon, 20 July 2015, 05:02:35
Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
Even generating a CSV with coordinates of the center of the switch cutouts would be helpful, along with those of mounting holes and plate outline. Origin could be anywhere outside the plate, or preferably at the lower left corner of the plate (or at the intersection of the projection of the two sides, left and bottom)-I don't know if what I said makes sense... :eek: :'(
Post by: chzel on Mon, 20 July 2015, 05:30:46
Some people might need it!
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 20 July 2015, 05:32:17
Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
Even generating a CSV with coordinates of the center of the switch cutouts would be helpful, along with those of mounting holes and plate outline. Origin could be anywhere outside the plate, or preferably at the lower left corner of the plate (or at the intersection of the projection of the two sides, left and bottom)-I don't know if what I said makes sense... :eek: :'(
While trying to convert SVG to STL/solid-SVG - I had a chance to inspect things
You can easily generate the information you want, just open the .SVG with a text editor, it's a readable XML document, there are switches+~10 entities, you will easily spot the switch cutouts polygon's - average those dots and you get the center for the switches
I failed to convert the SVG to STL today, awaiting your video swill :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 07:56:10
Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
Even generating a CSV with coordinates of the center of the switch cutouts would be helpful, along with those of mounting holes and plate outline. Origin could be anywhere outside the plate, or preferably at the lower left corner of the plate (or at the intersection of the projection of the two sides, left and bottom)-I don't know if what I said makes sense... :eek: :'(
While trying to convert SVG to STL/solid-SVG - I had a chance to inspect things
You can easily generate the information you want, just open the .SVG with a text editor, it's a readable XML document, there are switches+~10 entities, you will easily spot the switch cutouts polygon's - average those dots and you get the center for the switches
I failed to convert the SVG to STL today, awaiting your video swill :)
I will take a couple minutes at work this morning to create a video for you. :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 07:58:47
Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
I should be able to do this. Basically I would be creating the PCB footprint, but none of the matrix. I will look into this for you.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 08:00:44
Also something I forgot earlier, when designing a Poker plate could you add the option to insert the hole next to the CapsLock for the LED?
Some people might need it!
I don't own a Poker, I have just been working off other people's specs. Do you know the exact measurement and size where the LED hole would be needed?
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Mon, 20 July 2015, 08:42:51
I was talking with a friend last week exactly about that. It shouldn't be that difficult to program something like that. The main question that remains is which programs you are going to support. KiCad seems a natural choice; Eagle would be another. Altium, perhaps?Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
I should be able to do this. Basically I would be creating the PCB footprint, but none of the matrix. I will look into this for you.
For Eagle, which is my design CAD of choice (although I'm thinking to migrate to Altium), you just have to make a script to do something like that:
Code: [Select]
GRID <MM/INCH>
MOVE <name of the component> (<X coordinate> <Y coordinate>)
and repeat MOVE command for all components until the last one is placed.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 09:08:10
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 09:14:43
I was talking with a friend last week exactly about that. It shouldn't be that difficult to program something like that. The main question that remains is which programs you are going to support. KiCad seems a natural choice; Eagle would be another. Altium, perhaps?Concerning the PCB generation, I think it would be a huge help just to generate a PCB layout with the holes in the right places for the switches, and matching holes/pads for the diodes and LEDs that are connected to the switches. Leave out the routing from the switches right now, as that is complicated. Just having a PCB layout with the holes in the correct place that matches the plate design would allow many more people to design their own keyboard layouts.
I should be able to do this. Basically I would be creating the PCB footprint, but none of the matrix. I will look into this for you.
For Eagle, which is my design CAD of choice (although I'm thinking to migrate to Altium), you just have to make a script to do something like that:Code: [Select]GRID <MM/INCH>
MOVE <name of the component> (<X coordinate> <Y coordinate>)
and repeat MOVE command for all components until the last one is placed.
I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 20 July 2015, 09:20:59
Here is a simple video for creating an STL from the SVG generated by my tool. This should re-enable all of the the 3D printers out there who are affected by me switching to only 2D renderings.
Thanks a lot for the video, I really really appreciate it <3
The osx version of FreeCAD is extremely bugged tho, it fails at the union operation, It also crashes at most extrude operations, I guess I will re-try at my attic windows setup after I wake up, I was completely unaware of the union/cut operations
Edit: It seems the circles are the cause of the crashes, anything that includes them fails - I'm sure it's osx or FreeCAD 0.1.4-only (brew's version), at least I hope
Edit 2: When I remove the circles, the method works on osx, I guess I'm going to have to manually place those 60% screw holes :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 10:04:35
Here is a simple video for creating an STL from the SVG generated by my tool. This should re-enable all of the the 3D printers out there who are affected by me switching to only 2D renderings.
Thanks a lot for the video, I really really appreciate it <3
The osx version of FreeCAD is extremely bugged tho, it fails at the union operation, It also crashes at most extrude operations, I guess I will re-try at my attic windows setup after I wake up, I was completely unaware of the union/cut operations
Edit: It seems the circles are the cause of the crashes, anything that includes them fails - I'm sure it's osx or FreeCAD 0.1.4-only (brew's version), at least I hope
Edit 2: When I remove the circles, the method works on osx, I guess I'm going to have to manually place those 60% screw holes :)
Make sure you are working with a recent SVG generated by my tool. I changed the poker holes to be drawn as polygons. I have not tried with a sandwich case yet. I can make them polygons as well if that helps. I will test that now.
I just successfully exported a poker plate to an STL without problems.
EDIT: I just tested with a sandwich case and yes, the holes (circles) cause a problem. I will change them to polygons tonight when I get home and that will solve the problem. Make sure the Poker layout you are using is using a recent SVG export because that case now uses all polygons.
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 20 July 2015, 10:34:40
Once again, thanks a lot for the tool and all your help, it enables me to build my optimal layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9a60939ad71519c14d6208467ffa9f76 that would otherwise be practically impossible - or very challenging to say the least
Post by: trauring on Mon, 20 July 2015, 10:42:52
You've done some great work researching the different plate cutouts needs to support different kinds of switches and stabs, and I guess this needs some similar research.
I should be able to do this. Basically I would be creating the PCB footprint, but none of the matrix. I will look into this for you.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Mon, 20 July 2015, 12:04:46
I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 12:48:53
Fair enough. I can produce the syntax you specified without too much difficulty. What file type is that? How can I test it is working correctly?I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Mon, 20 July 2015, 13:24:58
You can do it in 2 ways: a script or an ULP (User Language Program). Both are plain text files, but distinct from each other.Fair enough. I can produce the syntax you specified without too much difficulty. What file type is that? How can I test it is working correctly?I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
An script (http://www.build-electronic-circuits.com/eagle-scripts/) is a simple sequence of comands, like the example I gave. An ULP is written in C-like syntax to perform more complex tasks. To test it you need to run them on Eagle, there are options for that on the menu.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 17:37:06
You can do it in 2 ways: a script or an ULP (User Language Program). Both are plain text files, but distinct from each other.Fair enough. I can produce the syntax you specified without too much difficulty. What file type is that? How can I test it is working correctly?I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
An script (http://www.build-electronic-circuits.com/eagle-scripts/) is a simple sequence of comands, like the example I gave. An ULP is written in C-like syntax to perform more complex tasks. To test it you need to run them on Eagle, there are options for that on the menu.
Thank, this is helpful. I would probably start out with a script and see how that goes. To start, I would probably just do the switch holes, led holes, diode holes and the center MX hole. I think that would give me enough work to get started on this.
I don't expect this to be too hard given my current setup. I have developed a lot of helper functions to be able to work in both relative and absolute space. All of my cutouts are in relative space (eg: square 14mm switch cutout would be [(7, 7), (7, -7), (-7, -7), (-7, 7)] ), then when I loop over the keys and rows, I do something like points.Rel(center_point) which maps the relative points to the absolute coord system with center_point being the center of the switch cutout. This makes it easy for me to map patterns of holes or lines or whatever into absolute space easily.
I need to get my head around how exactly I am adding value by doing this though. I don't really see how just having this information helps anyone. I guess its just a starting point for them to build their own matrix?
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 July 2015, 22:28:12
Good to know, thanks a lot, indeed mine is 5 days old (60%)
Once again, thanks a lot for the tool and all your help, it enables me to build my optimal layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9a60939ad71519c14d6208467ffa9f76 that would otherwise be practically impossible - or very challenging to say the least
Nice. Your layout is almost the same as mine. This layout is the reason I even started looking at generating cad files programmatically. This is the seed that planted what we have today. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/81624cf57fa0cafb311f80727d4742d8
I have pushed an update into production that allows for the sandwich case to also be turned into an STL. I have found that it is much faster if you do the following order:
- create faces
- union inside faces
- cut the inside out of the plate face
- then extrude the cut
In the video I have it as:
- create faces
- union inside faces
- extrude both face groups
- cut extruded solid
It is substantially faster to cut the faces before extruding. figured I would make that note...
I have also found that, yes, the sandwich case works with holes. However, the number of holes can change the behavior of the cut operation. It failed on me with 14 holes in a 60% layout, but 4 holes works perfectly. I did not test all possible intervals.
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 21 July 2015, 02:05:09
(On the other hand, even a single hole sometimes refuse to become a face/2D shape with FreeCAD, so this is not also a sure thing)
I started basic design with Tinkercad, and I have to say it's a very simple yet powerful tool (no precision tho) - compared to the open source and free cad software, I would rather use Tinkercad, I previously dismissed AutoCAD's free student edition for mac as it has a black-box licensing routine that seems disruptive, yet, now I really wonder how it compares in terms of approachability, consistency and feature-set
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 21 July 2015, 10:54:02
You can do it in 2 ways: a script or an ULP (User Language Program). Both are plain text files, but distinct from each other.Fair enough. I can produce the syntax you specified without too much difficulty. What file type is that? How can I test it is working correctly?I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
An script (http://www.build-electronic-circuits.com/eagle-scripts/) is a simple sequence of comands, like the example I gave. An ULP is written in C-like syntax to perform more complex tasks. To test it you need to run them on Eagle, there are options for that on the menu.
Thank, this is helpful. I would probably start out with a script and see how that goes. To start, I would probably just do the switch holes, led holes, diode holes and the center MX hole. I think that would give me enough work to get started on this.
I don't expect this to be too hard given my current setup. I have developed a lot of helper functions to be able to work in both relative and absolute space. All of my cutouts are in relative space (eg: square 14mm switch cutout would be [(7, 7), (7, -7), (-7, -7), (-7, 7)] ), then when I loop over the keys and rows, I do something like points.Rel(center_point) which maps the relative points to the absolute coord system with center_point being the center of the switch cutout. This makes it easy for me to map patterns of holes or lines or whatever into absolute space easily.
I need to get my head around how exactly I am adding value by doing this though. I don't really see how just having this information helps anyone. I guess its just a starting point for them to build their own matrix?
I've actually already written that script. I have 150 lines of python that takes K-L-E JSON and outputs an eagle script to generate the schematic and another to generate the layout. It even connects rows and columns (in some cases) in the schematic, but I still have a few bugs to work through. A grid is easy and already works. Horizontal staggering works too, but I haven't quite figured out how to make vertical staggering work. Give me a couple weeks and I should be able to work through those issues and get this up and available somewhere, assuming I get through the PCB design I've been working on and get back to that script.
Post by: swill on Tue, 21 July 2015, 11:00:58
Very cool. Would you mind if I create a public port to golang and implement it straight into the builder? I recently rewrote everything from python into golang and I am trying to keep as much of the code possible in a single language. Makes manageability much easier especially if I have to scale.You can do it in 2 ways: a script or an ULP (User Language Program). Both are plain text files, but distinct from each other.Fair enough. I can produce the syntax you specified without too much difficulty. What file type is that? How can I test it is working correctly?I will have to look into this. It would be easy for me to export as an SVG or something like that. I will have to check how KiCad or Eagle expect input and go from there. I have not worked with either of them at all yet...If you can output a file with XY coordinates of the position of the center of the switch, it can be used to generate a positioning script. And I don't think an SVG file would be helpful for PCB making, at least not with Eagle.
An script (http://www.build-electronic-circuits.com/eagle-scripts/) is a simple sequence of comands, like the example I gave. An ULP is written in C-like syntax to perform more complex tasks. To test it you need to run them on Eagle, there are options for that on the menu.
Thank, this is helpful. I would probably start out with a script and see how that goes. To start, I would probably just do the switch holes, led holes, diode holes and the center MX hole. I think that would give me enough work to get started on this.
I don't expect this to be too hard given my current setup. I have developed a lot of helper functions to be able to work in both relative and absolute space. All of my cutouts are in relative space (eg: square 14mm switch cutout would be [(7, 7), (7, -7), (-7, -7), (-7, 7)] ), then when I loop over the keys and rows, I do something like points.Rel(center_point) which maps the relative points to the absolute coord system with center_point being the center of the switch cutout. This makes it easy for me to map patterns of holes or lines or whatever into absolute space easily.
I need to get my head around how exactly I am adding value by doing this though. I don't really see how just having this information helps anyone. I guess its just a starting point for them to build their own matrix?
I've actually already written that script. I have 150 lines of python that takes K-L-E JSON and outputs an eagle script to generate the schematic and another to generate the layout. It even connects rows and columns (in some cases) in the schematic, but I still have a few bugs to work through. A grid is easy and already works. Horizontal staggering works too, but I haven't quite figured out how to make vertical staggering work. Give me a couple weeks and I should be able to work through those issues and get this up and available somewhere, assuming I get through the PCB design I've been working on and get back to that script.
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 21 July 2015, 11:08:42
Here is a drawing I made for making a PCB footprint.
(http://i.imgur.com/C7WLCEN.png)
Post by: swill on Tue, 21 July 2015, 11:13:31
Someone was asking about the holes in the PCB for LEDs, etc.
Here is a drawing I made for making a PCB footprint.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/C7WLCEN.png)
wow, thats awesome dude. thanks so much for sharing this. :)
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 21 July 2015, 13:23:59
I've actually already written that script. I have 150 lines of python that takes K-L-E JSON and outputs an eagle script to generate the schematic and another to generate the layout. It even connects rows and columns (in some cases) in the schematic, but I still have a few bugs to work through. A grid is easy and already works. Horizontal staggering works too, but I haven't quite figured out how to make vertical staggering work. Give me a couple weeks and I should be able to work through those issues and get this up and available somewhere, assuming I get through the PCB design I've been working on and get back to that script.Very cool. Would you mind if I create a public port to golang and implement it straight into the builder? I recently rewrote everything from python into golang and I am trying to keep as much of the code possible in a single language. Makes manageability much easier especially if I have to scale.
Once it's done not at all, but I will probably be maintaining my own version anyway. I've been looking into what it'd take to interface with one of the fab services so people wouldn't have to figure out gerber files, but the problem is that it's not cheap. The cheapest option for a non-student starts at around $75 for something keyboard sized and takes weeks to be made/delivered. If you're in the US you can get something that looks like this in a day or two from bay area circuits for $100:
(http://i.imgur.com/PsiDXobl.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/PsiDXob.jpg)
And if you're a student they have a $30 special you can use, but I don't have the right email address to try that service out.
Still, as a middle ground between hand wiring and full PCB design it's not bad if we can get it automated to the point of just submitting gerbers to the fab houses.
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 22 July 2015, 02:21:17
It no longer accepts blank or 0 for the holes, however, put 4, and then put a hole size of zero will work.
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 22 July 2015, 06:19:48
Post by: swill on Wed, 22 July 2015, 09:22:34
A trick I found today...Why do you need to do this? You can just use the case type of "none" to draw with no holes. You can still specify the padding values.
It no longer accepts blank or 0 for the holes, however, put 4, and then put a hole size of zero will work.
Post by: swill on Wed, 22 July 2015, 09:25:41
Hi swill! Is it by purpose that the switches can move a tiny bit left-right in the cutout?They shouldn't be able to, but I have seen that if the alps + MX cutout is used and the corners are not cut perfectly square. It won't cause any problems though because they still clip in fine. If you are using a pcb, they won't move once soldered.
How did you fab the plate and what options did you use?
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 22 July 2015, 10:09:08
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 22 July 2015, 16:02:51
Hi swill, I chose the "medium" cutout type with 12 edges. The cutouts were precisely lasercutted into 1,5mm steel. My original MX switches can move freely from left to right for about ... ~0.6mm, I would estimate. They sit tight enough that this is not a real issue. I just ask, if I shall change the cutout design to 15.0mm*14.0mm for the next batch, ie. shrinking the horizontal cutout width by 0.6mm, what do you think?
Do you really need the side cutouts for switch opening? I VERY rarely use them, as I normally just desolder the switches if I want to replace them with another type.
I HIGHLY recommend using the simple square cutouts if you can go without the cutouts for switch opening. And I also recommend picking one type of stabilizer hole and sticking with it, whether it be Cherry or Costar.
The 15.6 x 12.8 Alps rectangle merged with the 14 x 14 MX square is a compromise, designed to allow for use of Alps switches or MX switches on the same plate. It has the added benefit of allowing for easy switch opening, by having the sides cut out for the tabs on the MX switch to open. But it has the disadvantage of introducing instability in the switch hole, if the cuts are not made to EXTREMELY tight tolerances. Like 0.03mm tolerance.
@swill, maybe make the square holes to be the default, rather than the "rectangle on square design." Really, even the "H" cutout would cause less problems, while being more expensive. This tool is designed for ease-of-use, not necessarily advanced options by default, in my mind.
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 22 July 2015, 17:43:43
Last time I tried that (a few revisions ago), it didn't generate the case.A trick I found today...Why do you need to do this? You can just use the case type of "none" to draw with no holes. You can still specify the padding values.
It no longer accepts blank or 0 for the holes, however, put 4, and then put a hole size of zero will work.
I want the case, but without holes, which I intend to add later.
Post by: swill on Wed, 22 July 2015, 20:00:57
It should work, bit I will check tonight. I have been changing the code a lot recently. I know I have been squashing a lot of bugs. If you still have problems let me know and I will get it fixed.Last time I tried that (a few revisions ago), it didn't generate the case.A trick I found today...Why do you need to do this? You can just use the case type of "none" to draw with no holes. You can still specify the padding values.
It no longer accepts blank or 0 for the holes, however, put 4, and then put a hole size of zero will work.
I want the case, but without holes, which I intend to add later.
Post by: swill on Wed, 22 July 2015, 20:04:22
You guys both make great points. I personally chose the square holes for my build for the reasons JD pointed out. I will make the H the default, that's a good call.Hi swill, I chose the "medium" cutout type with 12 edges. The cutouts were precisely lasercutted into 1,5mm steel. My original MX switches can move freely from left to right for about ... ~0.6mm, I would estimate. They sit tight enough that this is not a real issue. I just ask, if I shall change the cutout design to 15.0mm*14.0mm for the next batch, ie. shrinking the horizontal cutout width by 0.6mm, what do you think?
Do you really need the side cutouts for switch opening? I VERY rarely use them, as I normally just desolder the switches if I want to replace them with another type.
I HIGHLY recommend using the simple square cutouts if you can go without the cutouts for switch opening. And I also recommend picking one type of stabilizer hole and sticking with it, whether it be Cherry or Costar.
The 15.6 x 12.8 Alps rectangle merged with the 14 x 14 MX square is a compromise, designed to allow for use of Alps switches or MX switches on the same plate. It has the added benefit of allowing for easy switch opening, by having the sides cut out for the tabs on the MX switch to open. But it has the disadvantage of introducing instability in the switch hole, if the cuts are not made to EXTREMELY tight tolerances. Like 0.03mm tolerance.
@swill, maybe make the square holes to be the default, rather than the "rectangle on square design." Really, even the "H" cutout would cause less problems, while being more expensive. This tool is designed for ease-of-use, not necessarily advanced options by default, in my mind.
Thanks for the feedback Eszett, I hope you are happy with your build. :)
Post by: Eszett on Thu, 23 July 2015, 07:21:03
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 July 2015, 08:10:24
swill, I'm especially happy with your support / responsiveness. Thumbs up! Alright, for the next run I plan to take square 14*14. Another question: when powder coating turns them into 13.9*13.9 do you think the Cherry switches will still fit in?I have heard of people having issues with components fitting after powder coating. You could set a Kerf of -0.1 to counteract this. This kerf setting will result in 14.1 MM cutouts and the plate will be 0.1 MM smaller (the powder coat will make it the right size again after).
I have not personally used kerf for this purpose (I have never powder coated), but I designed kerf to be able to be used with both positive or negative values to handle exactly this type of situation.
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Thu, 23 July 2015, 08:27:27
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the kerf is -0.1mm, won't the final cut dimension be 14.2mm? It would affect both sides of the cut, right? If my presumption is correct, the kerf should be -0.05mm.swill, I'm especially happy with your support / responsiveness. Thumbs up! Alright, for the next run I plan to take square 14*14. Another question: when powder coating turns them into 13.9*13.9 do you think the Cherry switches will still fit in?I have heard of people having issues with components fitting after powder coating. You could set a Kerf of -0.1 to counteract this. This kerf setting will result in 14.1 MM cutouts and the plate will be 0.1 MM smaller (the powder coat will make it the right size again after).
I have not personally used kerf for this purpose (I have never powder coated), but I designed kerf to be able to be used with both positive or negative values to handle exactly this type of situation.
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 July 2015, 08:46:45
No. It may not be obvious how this is written, so here is the basic idea.Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the kerf is -0.1mm, won't the final cut dimension be 14.2mm? It would affect both sides of the cut, right? If my presumption is correct, the kerf should be -0.05mm.swill, I'm especially happy with your support / responsiveness. Thumbs up! Alright, for the next run I plan to take square 14*14. Another question: when powder coating turns them into 13.9*13.9 do you think the Cherry switches will still fit in?I have heard of people having issues with components fitting after powder coating. You could set a Kerf of -0.1 to counteract this. This kerf setting will result in 14.1 MM cutouts and the plate will be 0.1 MM smaller (the powder coat will make it the right size again after).
I have not personally used kerf for this purpose (I have never powder coated), but I designed kerf to be able to be used with both positive or negative values to handle exactly this type of situation.
I wanted to make it easy for a customer to go to a cutter and ask "what is the kerf of your cutting device?" and be able to just enter that value. Most people would not understand this level of detail.
The way this is developed is to assume that the kerf is calculated along a cut line, so that means that 1/2 of the kerf will be inside the line and half will be outside the line. Because of this, I basically take the value entered and divide it by 2 right away and adjust the positioning of the cutline based on that value.
This means that I will adjust the switch cut line by -0.05mm on each side in this case, resulting in a 14.1mm square hole.
Does this all make sense? I was torn how to represent this in the UI, so I chose this approach as it seemed least prone to big mistakes.
Edit: I just realized that I don't have this information in the on page help for the kerf setting. I will add that tonight to make it clearer what value should be entered.
Post by: Eszett on Thu, 23 July 2015, 09:35:33
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 July 2015, 09:49:54
Yes, this does make sense. That means, if the powder coat is e.g. 0.1mm thick, I have to configure the plate in your plate builder with Kerf set to "0.2mm"! Got it. :thumb:Well almost. Set the kerf to -0.2mm. Notice the negative. :)
Kerf will make the openings smaller when using positive numbers. It will make the openings bigger when using negative values.
Post by: Eszett on Thu, 23 July 2015, 11:23:49
Post by: swill on Sat, 25 July 2015, 00:41:44
- I changed the default switch cutout to the H style as per the recent conversation.
- I updated the kerf help text to minimize confusion about what value to enter.
- I found a couple places in the code that was causing errors/stack traces, so I fixed them.
- I wrote a simple monitoring tool to notify me if there are any errors. If you are interested, it is available here: https://github.com/swill/slackd
Think thats it for this update... :)
Post by: Eszett on Sun, 26 July 2015, 14:19:02
Post by: swill on Sun, 26 July 2015, 15:24:03
Nice, swill. As for me, I double-check the layout/cutouts in CAD, and I recommend that. If someone needs help with that, he can send me a PM.
I always do the same thing just to be sure. No reason not to check and validate before you spend $100 (or more). :P
Post by: LeandreN on Sun, 26 July 2015, 17:17:57
Can you add this feature again, i see no reason to remove it.
Post by: swill on Sun, 26 July 2015, 18:01:32
Hey! i used to 3D print my plates, but mesh formats are no longer supported anymore! :( I haven't found a way for me to convert DXF to STP. Wanted to change the plate thickness to 3mm and download it and make a case in FreeCad.Check this post for how to make a 3D object from the output of the current tool.
Can you add this feature again, i see no reason to remove it.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1804952.msg#1804952
I removed the ability to output 3D objects because it was about 300x slower to produce them because I had to use an actual cad engine. Now I have trimmed down logic that produces an SVG natively and does not use a cad engine at all anymore. The last 3 months I have been redeveloping the tool from scratch to make it faster and better support the standard 2D formates that most people use.
Make sense? Let me know if you have problems following my guide. I recommend you cut the faces before you extrude because I have found it to be faster in that order (not the order I did in the video).
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Mon, 27 July 2015, 11:16:56
Or is it simpler to just have the same plate be cut from multiple drawings with different cutouts in different positions?
I'd also like to know if the switch top removable cutouts leave a thin visible gap at the sides of the switch?
Post by: swill on Mon, 27 July 2015, 11:46:53
Is there a way to make it draw multiple cutouts types for the same plate to make a cutout tester?
Or is it simpler to just have the same plate be cut from multiple drawings with different cutouts in different positions?
I'd also like to know if the switch top removable cutouts leave a thin visible gap at the sides of the switch?
I am not entirely sure what you mean by multiple types of cutouts on the same plate. Do you mean making a plate that can support more than one type of layout. So for example, a split caps lock and a full caps lock?
The short answer is Yes, you can do that. The basic idea is that you specify overlapping keys in the layout editor and then when the builder encounters that, it will create a union of the overlapping cutouts.
Checkout this post for more details: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1803133#msg1803133
If you have specific use cases that you want to support, just let me know and I will figure out how to modify the layout to give you what you are looking for.
As for the Alps+MX cutout and the thin line. I can not remember, so I would have to look on a plate at home and get back to you.
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 July 2015, 09:33:45
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:50:02
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 July 2015, 21:08:08
I sketched in keyboard-layout-editor.com an ergodox key 1u wide and 1.5u tall, and the plate builder rotated the cutout by 90°. Why? :'(Post the raw data you used and I will check into it. Thx...
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 28 July 2015, 21:19:19
Code: [Select]
["Num Lock","/","*","-"],
["7\nHome","8\n↑","9\nPgUp"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5},"+"],
[{y:-0.25},"4\n←","5","6\n→"],
["1\nEnd","2\n↓","3\nPgDn"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5},"Enter"],
[{y:-0.25,w:2},"0\nIns",".\nDel"][attach=1]
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 July 2015, 21:42:50
Hi swill. Of course, let's take this dummy code:Code: [Select]["Num Lock","/","*","-"],(Attachment Link)
["7\nHome","8\n↑","9\nPgUp"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5},"+"],
[{y:-0.25},"4\n←","5","6\n→"],
["1\nEnd","2\n↓","3\nPgDn"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5},"Enter"],
[{y:-0.25,w:2},"0\nIns",".\nDel"]
Yes, that is normal behavior. Basically, if a key is taller than it is wide, it expects you are working with a rotated switch, so it rotates the switch to be a vertical key.
You can easily turn the cutout back to the other way if you want using the {_r:90} custom flag. You can click on the ? next to the raw data entry to see a list of all of the different operations or overrides you can do on a key by key basis. You can even change cutouts on a key by key basis (which I don't think many people realize).
So this is how you would change your code to make it behave the way you would like it to:
Code: [Select]
["Num Lock","/","*","-"],
["7\nHome","8\n↑","9\nPgUp"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5,_r:90},"+"],
[{y:-0.25},"4\n←","5","6\n→"],
["1\nEnd","2\n↓","3\nPgDn"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3,h:1.5,_r:90},"Enter"],
[{y:-0.25,w:2},"0\nIns",".\nDel"]
In your case, your 1.5u key is actually taking two vertical spaces though, so maybe I am not clear on the point. Don't you want a stabilizer if it will actually be a 2u key?
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 29 July 2015, 00:29:22
Quote
In your case, your 1.5u key is actually taking two vertical spaces though, so maybe I am not clear on the point. Don't you want a stabilizer if it will actually be a 2u key?No, this was just a quick code sample, I didn't mean it to take up 2u. In my layout I completely avoid everything beyond 1.75u to get around using stabs at all!
Post by: swill on Wed, 29 July 2015, 07:27:01
Didn't know about this "_r:90" option, I'm glad you helped out again, swill!Cool. Looking forward to checking out the layout. Fun to see everything people are creating. :)QuoteIn your case, your 1.5u key is actually taking two vertical spaces though, so maybe I am not clear on the point. Don't you want a stabilizer if it will actually be a 2u key?No, this was just a quick code sample, I didn't mean it to take up 2u. In my layout I completely avoid everything beyond 1.75u to get around using stabs at all!
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Wed, 29 July 2015, 18:55:56
I meant cutout types. Basically having a square cutout beside the H cutout on the same plate.Is there a way to make it draw multiple cutouts types for the same plate to make a cutout tester?
Or is it simpler to just have the same plate be cut from multiple drawings with different cutouts in different positions?
I'd also like to know if the switch top removable cutouts leave a thin visible gap at the sides of the switch?
I am not entirely sure what you mean by multiple types of cutouts on the same plate. Do you mean making a plate that can support more than one type of layout. So for example, a split caps lock and a full caps lock?
The short answer is Yes, you can do that. The basic idea is that you specify overlapping keys in the layout editor and then when the builder encounters that, it will create a union of the overlapping cutouts.
Checkout this post for more details: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1803133#msg1803133
If you have specific use cases that you want to support, just let me know and I will figure out how to modify the layout to give you what you are looking for.
As for the Alps+MX cutout and the thin line. I can not remember, so I would have to look on a plate at home and get back to you.
Post by: swill on Wed, 29 July 2015, 19:06:45
Oh, I understand. Yes that is possible. Use the {_t:<0-2>} declaration for the key. You can check all the additional options in the help menu for the raw data field.I meant cutout types. Basically having a square cutout beside the H cutout on the same plate.Is there a way to make it draw multiple cutouts types for the same plate to make a cutout tester?
Or is it simpler to just have the same plate be cut from multiple drawings with different cutouts in different positions?
I'd also like to know if the switch top removable cutouts leave a thin visible gap at the sides of the switch?
I am not entirely sure what you mean by multiple types of cutouts on the same plate. Do you mean making a plate that can support more than one type of layout. So for example, a split caps lock and a full caps lock?
The short answer is Yes, you can do that. The basic idea is that you specify overlapping keys in the layout editor and then when the builder encounters that, it will create a union of the overlapping cutouts.
Checkout this post for more details: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1803133#msg1803133
If you have specific use cases that you want to support, just let me know and I will figure out how to modify the layout to give you what you are looking for.
As for the Alps+MX cutout and the thin line. I can not remember, so I would have to look on a plate at home and get back to you.
Edit: you can also change the stabilizer type per key as well with the {_s:<0-2>} declaration. Check the help for all the options.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 30 July 2015, 12:51:43
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 30 July 2015, 12:54:24
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/waterjet-and-laser-cut-keyboard-plates.html
This lets you get an idea of prices for a variety of materials and designs.
Post by: swill on Thu, 30 July 2015, 13:12:31
I've taken a couple sample designs run them through swill's tool, and put them up as examples on the Big Blue Saw website:Cool. Thanks for doing that. I think that will help people a lot as they begin to plan their builds. :)
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/waterjet-and-laser-cut-keyboard-plates.html
This lets you get an idea of prices for a variety of materials and designs.
Post by: wlhlm on Mon, 03 August 2015, 11:33:32
[attachimg=1]
I just wanted to thank you for creating the plate builder, it makes everything so easy, almost anybody could make a plate. The svg-output is great to work with - toss it in Inkscape and have a last look at the plate, check dimensions, or add holes to the Planck plate. Then have your custom plate made!
:-* :-*
I myself tried to write a FreeCAD plugin for importing KLE data, which was pretty frustrating as FreeCAD's documentation is basically zero and I was new to its paradigms and conventions. Glad I've discovered your tool before I could finish the plugin. :p
The plates:
Both plates were made by Alfa Carbon (http://alfa-carbon.de/) from 1.5mm carbon fiber plates. Communication was great and all I had to do was to give them the SVG files (attached to the post) and the plates turned out exactly like I wanted them. The typical carbon fiber texture could've been a bit more pronounced, but it still looks damn awesome! ;)
[attachimg=2]
All in all, I've paid 67.00€ for both plates together.
The switches fit perfectly, the stabs are a tight fit and required some additional force (tried using PCB and plate stabs). The builder generates some thin spots when using the Poker case-option in combination with split Backspace and split right Shift keys, but Alfa Carbon was able to mill them without problems and they feel pretty solid.
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
60%: Layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5e)
- split Backspace
- split right Shift
- winkeyless bottom row
Planck: Layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c32e0cdc02b74e471954d9f5ece84015)
[attachimg=5]
- MIT style
- holes added manually using Inkscape
Suggestion:
Minor convenience feature you could add is to automatically fetch the KLE layout data when inputting an URL instead of having to copy the raw data. KLE already returns the layout in valid JSON when going to a special URL:
Code: [Select]
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5e
↓
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5eI'm not sure if this has been suggested before or if it's already supported.Thanks again.
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 August 2015, 12:27:33
Others have had concerns about the thin areas when using the default poker case with non-standard layouts. I have recently added the ability to modify the size of the holes in the poker plate so you can make them a bit smaller and still have them be functional if that is a concern.
I am glad you are happy with your plates. They look awesome... Also, thank you for the donation, that was very generous of you. :)
Today I received two carbon fiber plates I had custom made using drawings from your tool. A Planck plate and a 60% plate for a SA Carbon (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72241.0) build.
(Attachment Link)
I just wanted to thank you for creating the plate builder, it makes everything so easy, almost anybody could make a plate. The svg-output is great to work with - toss it in Inkscape and have a last look at the plate, check dimensions, or add holes to the Planck plate. Then have your custom plate made!
:-* :-*
I myself tried to write a FreeCAD plugin for importing KLE data, which was pretty frustrating as FreeCAD's documentation is basically zero and I was new to its paradigms and conventions. Glad I've discovered your tool before I could finish the plugin. :p
The plates:
Both plates were made by Alfa Carbon (http://alfa-carbon.de/) from 1.5mm carbon fiber plates. Communication was great and all I had to do was to give them the SVG files (attached to the post) and the plates turned out exactly like I wanted them. The typical carbon fiber texture could've been a bit more pronounced, but it still looks damn awesome! ;)
(Attachment Link)
All in all, I've paid 67.00€ for both plates together.
The switches fit perfectly, the stabs are a tight fit and required some additional force (tried using PCB and plate stabs). The builder generates some thin spots when using the Poker case-option in combination with split Backspace and split right Shift keys, but Alfa Carbon was able to mill them without problems and they feel pretty solid.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
60%: Layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5e)
- split Backspace
- split right Shift
- winkeyless bottom row
Planck: Layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c32e0cdc02b74e471954d9f5ece84015)
(Attachment Link)
- MIT style
- holes added manually using Inkscape
Suggestion:
Minor convenience feature you could add is to automatically fetch the KLE layout data when inputting an URL instead of having to copy the raw data. KLE already returns the layout in valid JSON when going to a special URL:Code: [Select]http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5eI'm not sure if this has been suggested before or if it's already supported.
↓
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/layouts/dabd8749f09edc2cb1ce3f0900daac5e
Thanks again.
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 03 August 2015, 13:32:16
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 August 2015, 22:52:02
I was having a hell of a time trying to get the FreeCAD lib to work on the Mac, so I just wrote instructions for how to run it in a Ubuntu VM in VirtualBox. That is by far the easiest way to get up and running since you can just follow some cut and paste instructions and you will be all set.
Feel free to hack away on that code. It would be interesting to incorporate skullydazed's PCB generation tool with this code. Anyone up for a little hacking??? :P
Post by: swill on Mon, 03 August 2015, 23:23:36
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 03 August 2015, 23:51:00
Thanks for open sourcing these swill, it's great to be able to access the dimensional calculations, as far as I see, the code is pretty readable and simple too
You are continuing with the Go code and this is the previous Python code right?
I'm probably going to make due with what I have for now (and don't get me wrong, what I have is awesome right now, but it's full of hacks and concerns) and re-build when agile PCB generation/manufacturing becomes a thing :)
Another reason why I manufactured my own plates was to get synchronise the case dimensions with the plate dimensions, the tex/vortex cases all have different dimensions, different corner boundaries, as a piece of useful info to those who are interested
TEX: enlarge left/right by 1to1.2mm, enlarge top/bottom by 0.4to0.5mm, 3mm corner boundaries
VORTEX: (forgot the exact dimensions) but enlarging all sides by 0.5mm is a safe bet, corner boundaries are 2mm tho
When you also enlarge the PCB holes a bit to accommodate centering, with these enlargements, the plate sits right in the middle/center, with gaps on all sides that are <1mm
Otherwise, sometimes, if you just make due with the default, you have an 2.5mm gap on one side and a 1mm gap on the other side, which is pretty displeasing if you ask me :)
And here is one of my 2 endgame-ish keyboards: (with the TEX dimensional adjustments) (as a small warning, 3/6 of the screw holes were too small for the tex screws as they are, so I used Vortex screws for them)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Tue, 04 August 2015, 00:02:06
Wow, those carbon plates are beautiful, congrats, I'm probably not going manufacture my own plates again, thinking of going for an anodised aluminium 1.5mm or a carbon 1.5mm like you, 3d-printed 5mm with cutouts have lots of advantages, but it's extremely challenging to make them perfect
Thanks for open sourcing these swill, it's great to be able to access the dimensional calculations, as far as I see, the code is pretty readable and simple too
You are continuing with the Go code and this is the previous Python code right?
I'm probably going to make due with what I have for now (and don't get me wrong, what I have is awesome right now, but it's full of hacks and concerns) and re-build when agile PCB generation/manufacturing becomes a thing :)
Another reason why I manufactured my own plates was to get synchronise the case dimensions with the plate dimensions, the tex/vortex cases all have different dimensions, different corner boundaries, as a piece of useful info to those who are interested
TEX: enlarge left/right by 1to1.2mm, enlarge top/bottom by 0.4to0.5mm, 3mm corner boundaries
VORTEX: (forgot the exact dimensions) but enlarging all sides by 0.5mm is a safe bet, corner boundaries are 2mm tho
When you also enlarge the PCB holes a bit to accommodate centering, with these enlargements, the plate sits right in the middle/center, with gaps on all sides that are <1mm
Otherwise, sometimes, if you just make due with the default, you have an 2.5mm gap on one side and a 1mm gap on the other side, which is pretty displeasing if you ask me :)
And here is one of my 2 endgame-ish keyboards: (with the TEX dimensional adjustments) (as a small warning, 3/6 of the screw holes were too small for the tex screws as they are, so I used Vortex screws for them)
(Attachment Link)
Yes, I intend to develop mainly on the Go code. That doesn't mean I won't maintain the open source Python version, but most of my focus will be on the Go code. Yes, I tried to make the code as readable as possible. The cutouts are identical in both builders, so that should help if you want to review the cutout details in code.
Judging from the name and the fact that you posted at pretty much the same time, I am pretty confident that it was you that just sent me a donation. I really appreciate the generosity. Mad props to you guys who donated today. I really appreciate it...
Post by: Charger on Thu, 06 August 2015, 17:16:05
(http://i.imgur.com/6fgzZFv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/MtcNy2P.jpg)
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 07 August 2015, 03:48:11
Wow, those carbon plates are beautiful, congrats, I'm probably not going manufacture my own plates again, thinking of going for an anodised aluminium 1.5mm or a carbon 1.5mm like you, 3d-printed 5mm with cutouts have lots of advantages, but it's extremely challenging to make them perfect
Thanks for open sourcing these swill, it's great to be able to access the dimensional calculations, as far as I see, the code is pretty readable and simple too
You are continuing with the Go code and this is the previous Python code right?
I'm probably going to make due with what I have for now (and don't get me wrong, what I have is awesome right now, but it's full of hacks and concerns) and re-build when agile PCB generation/manufacturing becomes a thing :)
Another reason why I manufactured my own plates was to get synchronise the case dimensions with the plate dimensions, the tex/vortex cases all have different dimensions, different corner boundaries, as a piece of useful info to those who are interested
TEX: enlarge left/right by 1to1.2mm, enlarge top/bottom by 0.4to0.5mm, 3mm corner boundaries
VORTEX: (forgot the exact dimensions) but enlarging all sides by 0.5mm is a safe bet, corner boundaries are 2mm tho
When you also enlarge the PCB holes a bit to accommodate centering, with these enlargements, the plate sits right in the middle/center, with gaps on all sides that are <1mm
Otherwise, sometimes, if you just make due with the default, you have an 2.5mm gap on one side and a 1mm gap on the other side, which is pretty displeasing if you ask me :)
And here is one of my 2 endgame-ish keyboards: (with the TEX dimensional adjustments) (as a small warning, 3/6 of the screw holes were too small for the tex screws as they are, so I used Vortex screws for them)
(Attachment Link)
This is very useful; thanks!
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 07 August 2015, 06:02:20
I thought I would post one some photos of one of the keyboards I am making that i used this tool in designing the files to have cut at bigbluesaw
Post by: swill on Mon, 10 August 2015, 22:53:17
[attachimg=1]
I still have to work out the details of the plate dimensions based on the rotated keys, so that will be the next step. This is a big step in the right direction though... :)
Post by: gogusrl on Sun, 16 August 2015, 05:19:58
(http://i.imgur.com/gSZwjsL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/9JMEI25.jpg)
pro tip : don't wash untreated steel with water + soap and let it in the sun to dry.
doing a test fit with switches and keycaps here : http://imgur.com/a/sLgch
Already planning on getting a rev. 2 plate cut tomorrow.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 16 August 2015, 06:35:19
My plates made with your tool 1.5 mm Steel.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/gSZwjsL.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/9JMEI25.jpg)
pro tip : don't wash untreated steel with water + soap and let it in the sun to dry.
doing a test fit with switches and keycaps here : http://imgur.com/a/sLgch
Already planning on getting a rev. 2 plate cut tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing this, what steel is that?
Post by: gogusrl on Sun, 16 August 2015, 06:45:02
This is revision 2 :
(http://i.imgur.com/OXE4Z1U.png)
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 16 August 2015, 06:52:13
I have no clue to be honest (I asked for 1.5 mm steel), it was cheap as hell (~25$ for what you see) and it came greasy as **** so I wanted to clean it up a bit so I can try some switches. I already found someone who will powder coat it for another ~20$ but I've already tweaked my layout and I think I'm gonna discard this one.
This is revision 2 :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/OXE4Z1U.png)
The separation of arrows is wise, on my current 60% layout I have integrated arrows, building a new keyboard to separate them
Can you share the details for the powder coating process, I never considered it before, It currently makes a lot of sense to just get a steel plate from bigbluesaw and get it powder coated, if the powder coating is solid (I'm asking because I need a similar solution too)
(One way or another, all steels will rust, you had the opportunity to experience that process in amplified form, otherwise, minor amounts of sweat from your hand will produce the same result slowly)
Post by: gogusrl on Sun, 16 August 2015, 07:17:02
Post by: wlhlm on Sun, 16 August 2015, 07:39:55
I have no clue to be honest (I asked for 1.5 mm steel), it was cheap as hell (~25$ for what you see).$25 for material+cutting? That's an awesome deal!
Post by: gogusrl on Mon, 17 August 2015, 07:32:04
They also told me I can get a 24% discount if I don't need an invoice & stuff (illegal work, no taxes paid).
Post by: harlw on Mon, 17 August 2015, 10:46:06
I just had a plate lasercut in wood and the holes turned out slightly too large so I'm excited to have the detailed info and tools in this thread.
slowclap.gif
Post by: swill on Mon, 17 August 2015, 11:57:36
Wow - this is great. Thanks OP! Bookmarked.Be sure to account for the kerf of the tool you are using to get the correct sized cutouts. Check the advanced settings for more details. If you have questions, just ask and I will do my best to support your needs.
I just had a plate lasercut in wood and the holes turned out slightly too large so I'm excited to have the detailed info and tools in this thread.
slowclap.gif
Post by: phishy on Mon, 17 August 2015, 22:10:44
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/keyboard_zpsorixbl5s.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/keyboard_zpsorixbl5s.jpg.html)
Post by: swill on Mon, 17 August 2015, 22:16:26
I'm so glad to still see this thread going strong. I still havent programmed my teensy but my keyboard is completely built for the most part. I need a few more spacers for the edges. If anyone can help me out navigating through this teensy stuff I'd appreciate it.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z173/phlshtank/keyboard_zpsorixbl5s.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/phlshtank/media/keyboard_zpsorixbl5s.jpg.html)
Looking good sir. I am sure you will love that layout. I love my FC660C...
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 20 August 2015, 10:54:08
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/waterjet-and-laser-cut-keyboard-plates.html
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/examples
Post by: Zustiur on Wed, 26 August 2015, 21:42:07
If anyone can help me out navigating through this teensy stuff I'd appreciate it.I can't help much from my phone but if you tell me your matrix I can give you pointers on using the TMK firmware when I get home.
[edit]
I got most of my firmware knowledge from http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/how-to-build-your-very-own-keyboard-firmware-t7177.html
If you follow that guide, note the following:
The guide forgets to tell you to download 'programmer's notepad' which you'll use to edit the code.
I never got winAVR to work properly. You may be better off downloading cygwin
The LED code in the guide may be wrong, or it may just be that I was using the LED on the teensy rather than a separate LED.
Post by: nephiel on Fri, 28 August 2015, 15:02:31
The LED code in the guide may be wrong, or it may just be that I was using the LED on the teensy rather than a separate LED.For the built-in LED on the Teensy I use something like this:
Code: [Select]
if (usb_led & (1<<USB_LED_CAPS_LOCK)) {
// set pin as output
DDRD |= (1<<6);
// Teensy 2.0 built-in LED is active high
PORTD |= (1<<6);
} else {
// Hi-Z
DDRD &= ~(1<<6);
PORTD &= ~(1<<6);
}
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 28 August 2015, 23:42:45
The first modification I made was to add ALPS-only cutouts:
Code: [Select]
+ elif t == 4: # alps compatible switch, not MX compatible
+ points = [
+ (7.75-k,-6.4+k), (7.75-k,6.4-k),
+ (-7.75+k,6.4-k), (-7.75+k,-6.4+k),
+ (7.75-k,-6.4+k),
+ ]
This lets me create an alps+costar plate that supports multiple layouts, like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/vZFo5sn.png)
I'm not 100% certain that will work, but I'm certain enough that I ordered a plate from BBS to validate my change.
Post by: swill on Sat, 29 August 2015, 00:02:33
I finally got around to setting up virtualbox and an ubuntu VM so I could run the python version. I spent way too much time trying to figure out how to run python code that imports freecad without running it in the freecad python window, and I just don't think it's possible on OS X.
The first modification I made was to add ALPS-only cutouts:Code: [Select]+ elif t == 4: # alps compatible switch, not MX compatible
+ points = [
+ (7.75-k,-6.4+k), (7.75-k,6.4-k),
+ (-7.75+k,6.4-k), (-7.75+k,-6.4+k),
+ (7.75-k,-6.4+k),
+ ]
This lets me create an alps+costar plate that supports multiple layouts, like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/vZFo5sn.png)
I'm not 100% certain that will work, but I'm certain enough that I ordered a plate from BBS to validate my change.
I am glad that it was not just me that could not get that to work on OSX. I spent at least a solid week trying before I gave up and said '**** it' and installed ubuntu and ran it there. I was trying to make that code run on a server anyway, so it was not the end of the world for me to use Ubuntu.
Awesome. If you want to do a pull request I can merge your changes into my repo.
Just in case others want to do alps only cutouts, it can be done with the current tool, it is just not super obvious. Here is some documentation of the feature that I use to make alps only cutouts.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1685418#msg1685418
You can use that to validate your cutout calculations if you want. I can do the math later to verify the values will work.
Love to see that you started playing around with the python version. Thanks for posting back.
I have not had a chance to work on this recently because I have been swamped with real life, kiteaid.com and summer... :)
Post by: neverused on Sat, 29 August 2015, 00:18:46
Post by: swill on Sat, 29 August 2015, 08:03:46
Swill, did I miss your brass build log? I remember you getting a plate but can't remember seeing it completed...I have not finished it because I have been too busy. Need to work on it.
Post by: neverused on Sat, 29 August 2015, 09:49:48
Post by: swill on Sat, 29 August 2015, 10:10:57
Yeah parenthood can do that, good luck finding time! I've got a second one due anytime now and am trying rush building another board before he shows up.Haha, ya. A baby, new house, renos, it all takes time from the important stuff. ;)
Post by: neverused on Sat, 29 August 2015, 10:19:51
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 29 August 2015, 10:54:15
I am glad that it was not just me that could not get that to work on OSX. I spent at least a solid week trying before I gave up and said '**** it' and installed ubuntu and ran it there. I was trying to make that code run on a server anyway, so it was not the end of the world for me to use Ubuntu.
Personally, I always like my stuff to be platform agnostic, but yeah it's not the end of the world. Speaking of server stuff I haven't actually dug in, but is there any reason it runs as root besides binding to port 80? I know it doesn't matter too much for something on a VM but if I can strip it down to a regular user we can do fun things like spinning up multiple copies of freecad to make multi-user possible on a single system.
Awesome. If you want to do a pull request I can merge your changes into my repo.
Just gotta polish up a few things and I will do that.
Just in case others want to do alps only cutouts, it can be done with the current tool, it is just not super obvious. Here is some documentation of the feature that I use to make alps only cutouts.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1685418#msg1685418
You can use that to validate your cutout calculations if you want. I can do the math later to verify the values will work.
Nice, looks like mine are exactly .1mm smaller than yours. I based mine on the matias datasheet so I assume you've padded it just a little to allow for non-perfect cuts?
I have not had a chance to work on this recently because I have been swamped with real life, kiteaid.com and summer... :)
Haha, ya. A baby, new house, renos, it all takes time from the important stuff. ;)
Priorities, man! ;)
They grow up faster than you realize though, soon you'll sirens your time chasing kids. Great work with the tool, I got to see your build someday soon!
My own little one is 10 months old now and can crawl across the room in the time it takes me to glance at the dog and back again. As much as it's already become the new normal and I have a hard time remembering what life was like before her, I already miss the days where I could just sit with her on my lap and have her actually stay there. :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 30 August 2015, 14:42:56
I am glad that it was not just me that could not get that to work on OSX. I spent at least a solid week trying before I gave up and said '**** it' and installed ubuntu and ran it there. I was trying to make that code run on a server anyway, so it was not the end of the world for me to use Ubuntu.
Personally, I always like my stuff to be platform agnostic, but yeah it's not the end of the world. Speaking of server stuff I haven't actually dug in, but is there any reason it runs as root besides binding to port 80? I know it doesn't matter too much for something on a VM but if I can strip it down to a regular user we can do fun things like spinning up multiple copies of freecad to make multi-user possible on a single system.
Ya me too. I have to admit, that was really the only reason I didn't launch that code earlier. I spent a crap ton of time trying to make it work natively on OSX. Supper annoying... The reason it has to be run as root is only because it is running on port 80. You can run it on port 8080 and a regular user should have the permissions to create a webserver on that port. Port 80 is a bit special and requires root (or sudo) to listen on. I was launching the application in my /etc/rc.local file which automatically runs as root, so that didn't matter for me.
You won't be able to make it run multiple copies of FreeCAD on the same box. FreeCAD is pretty annoying in that it uses global variables which will cross between instances of FreeCAD. So you will never be confident that what you are drawing is not being corrupted by another user's instance. I solved this by running multiple instances of the server in LXC containers (you could use Docker if you wanted) and served the multiple users requests from different containers. I built my cluster of containers to automatically scale based on the amount of traffic. In the end Python was just a little too slow for my liking doing the actual draws, so I went looking for another language, which is why I rewrote it in Golang.
Awesome. If you want to do a pull request I can merge your changes into my repo.
Just gotta polish up a few things and I will do that.
No rush. I have been super busy recently, so I am probably going to be a bit slow merging it. :)
Just in case others want to do alps only cutouts, it can be done with the current tool, it is just not super obvious. Here is some documentation of the feature that I use to make alps only cutouts.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1685418#msg1685418
You can use that to validate your cutout calculations if you want. I can do the math later to verify the values will work.
Nice, looks like mine are exactly .1mm smaller than yours. I based mine on the matias datasheet so I assume you've padded it just a little to allow for non-perfect cuts?
My measurements came from jdcarpe. He has experience with such things, so I trust him. :) Also, I have found that the tooling usually ends up cutting a little smaller than what you specify if they adjust for kerf (i think it is due to the tool speed). I think my measurements are a little tight from the single test I have done, but it should be functional. We will have to test to be sure...
I will add Alps only as a switch type to the current tool as well. Also, I am planning to add Alps only stabs, but I have to confirm the correct spec.
I have not had a chance to work on this recently because I have been swamped with real life, kiteaid.com and summer... :)Haha, ya. A baby, new house, renos, it all takes time from the important stuff. ;)
Priorities, man! ;)
The baby is sleeping right now and I have a bit of time and I was considering pulling out my soldering iron and getting a session in, but I am knackered. I went to a wedding last night and I am still a bit hungover.
They grow up faster than you realize though, soon you'll sirens your time chasing kids. Great work with the tool, I got to see your build someday soon!
My own little one is 10 months old now and can crawl across the room in the time it takes me to glance at the dog and back again. As much as it's already become the new normal and I have a hard time remembering what life was like before her, I already miss the days where I could just sit with her on my lap and have her actually stay there. :)
Ya, it definitely changes things. Mine is now old enough that we can go into the yard and kick a ball around, which is a lot of fun. He only just turned 2, but he is pretty coordinated so we can go have fun getting energy out outside now. :)
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 08:04:21
I'm currently building my first custom keyboard. It's plate mounted (hand wiring) TKL board. I've generated template from http://builder.swillkb.com/
Today I've got plate from laser cut. And found problems with stabilizers :(
I've bought stabilizers from WASD keyboards. First of all, looks like my stab holes are too long - stabs fixed not very well. I would need glue to fix them properly.
But another problem is space-bar. On backspace everything is fine. But on space-bar curved stablizer wire part hits middle of keycup! I don't understand why. Cut-outs for backspace and space are the same. They must be different? Looks like they must be a bit above current position.
Could you help me, how to set up them correctly?
My drawing (dxf) is in attachment, and images with dimensions (i've remove another keys - they are ok).
Looks like stab cutout must be 14.0(or less!) in height (instead of 14.2).
And aligned to the switch cutout. Without 0.5499 gap at top and 0.751 at bottom.
Post by: swill on Mon, 31 August 2015, 08:16:43
Hi all.
I'm currently building my first custom keyboard. It's plate mounted (hand wiring) TKL board. I've generated template from http://builder.swillkb.com/
Today I've got plate from laser cut. And found problems with stabilizers :(
I've bought stabilizers from WASD keyboards. First of all, looks like my stab holes are too long - stabs fixed not very well. I would need glue to fix them properly.
But another problem is space-bar. On backspace everything is fine. But on space-bar curved stablizer wire part hits middle of keycup! I don't understand why. Cut-outs for backspace and space are the same. They must be different? Looks like they must be a bit above current position.
Could you help me, how to set up them correctly?
My drawing (dxf) is in attachment, and images with dimensions (i've remove another keys - they are ok).
Looks like stab cutout must be 14.0(or less!) in height (instead of 14.2).
And aligned to the switch cutout. Without 0.5499 gap at top and 0.751 at bottom.
Where did you get the plate cut? Did they adjust for kerf or did you?
What thickness plate did you get cut, 1.5mm or 1.6mm? The costar stabilizer holes are 14.2 because with 1.6mm plates they don't clip in perfectly and it causes the uprights to be pushed in a bit which causes rubbing. All the stabilizer cutouts are identical (as you can see from your measurements), so the spacebar should not be any different than any of the 2u stabs. What hits? The wire on the switch? You said the wire hits the keycap? Im not sure what is hitting here.
With a little more info I will try to help...
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 08:30:19
I did no kerf adjustments. And I'm not sure, if cutting service do it. Laser cut has very low kerf.
Middle of the wire (it is curved, from wasd) hits key cup.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts/cherry-mx-stabilizer-spring-for-spacebar.html
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 31 August 2015, 08:58:06
The wire hits some keycaps tho that's expected: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73871
You can pretty much remove whatever the wire hits, even re-bend it slightly to change it's movement behaviour (I've never tried sanding/drilling the switches themselves, but I'm going to try it too on my next build)
Post by: swill on Mon, 31 August 2015, 09:05:37
Plate is 1.5mm
I did no kerf adjustments. And I'm not sure, if cutting service do it. Laser cut has very low kerf.
Middle of the wire (it is curved, from wasd) hits key cup.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts/cherry-mx-stabilizer-spring-for-spacebar.html
If you did not account for kerf and the cutter didn't either, then that is likely why the stabilizers are not fitting nicely. Do you have a caliper so you can measure what the actual opening dimensions are?
As KHAANNN mentioned, some keycaps do have issues hitting the wire. What keycaps are you using?
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 09:09:26
As KHAANNN mentioned, some keycaps do have issues hitting the wire. What keycaps are you using?
Tai-Hao PBT Double Shoots: https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-12_03-28-02.jpg
Post by: swill on Mon, 31 August 2015, 09:13:14
I have never tried those, so I am not sure. Are they cherry profile and reasonably thick caps?As KHAANNN mentioned, some keycaps do have issues hitting the wire. What keycaps are you using?
Tai-Hao PBT Double Shoots: https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-12_03-28-02.jpg
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 09:21:47
I have never tried those, so I am not sure. Are they cherry profile and reasonably thick caps?As KHAANNN mentioned, some keycaps do have issues hitting the wire. What keycaps are you using?
Tai-Hao PBT Double Shoots: https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-12_03-28-02.jpg
As reported - Cherry. But I'm not very professional to confirm.
They are thin. With thick keycaps that would be more problem - as on 2u keycaps there are very thin gap between keycap and wire.
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 31 August 2015, 09:50:16
I have never tried those, so I am not sure. Are they cherry profile and reasonably thick caps?As KHAANNN mentioned, some keycaps do have issues hitting the wire. What keycaps are you using?
Tai-Hao PBT Double Shoots: https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-12_03-28-02.jpg
As reported - Cherry. But I'm not very professional to confirm.
They are thin. With thick keycaps that would be more problem - as on 2u keycaps there are very thin gap between keycap and wire.
it is OEM profile.
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 10:20:31
And gap from top of the switch is 0.55mm, bottom 0.75mm. Are this correct? May be set to 0 ? and 14mm heights, like a switch hole.
Post by: swill on Mon, 31 August 2015, 11:29:49
14.2mm x 3.3mm is a cut-out size for 1.6mm plate. What size must be for 1.5, or 1mm plate? Without gaps.
And gap from top of the switch is 0.55mm, bottom 0.75mm. Are this correct? May be set to 0 ? and 14mm heights, like a switch hole.
I am asking what the measured size of the opening is (by using a caliper). If you did not specify a kerf value then your openings are probably 0.2mm (or more depending on the laser) bigger than what you see in the kad file, so it would be good to get an actual measurement of the opening.
Can you ask the laser cutter if they accounted for kerf and what the kerf size is for their laser?
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 14:20:17
14.2mm x 3.3mm is a cut-out size for 1.6mm plate. What size must be for 1.5, or 1mm plate? Without gaps.
And gap from top of the switch is 0.55mm, bottom 0.75mm. Are this correct? May be set to 0 ? and 14mm heights, like a switch hole.
I am asking what the measured size of the opening is (by using a caliper). If you did not specify a kerf value then your openings are probably 0.2mm (or more depending on the laser) bigger than what you see in the kad file, so it would be good to get an actual measurement of the opening.
Can you ask the laser cutter if they accounted for kerf and what the kerf size is for their laser?
I've just measured with calliper - exactly 14x14 for switch and 14.2x3.3 for stabilizer. May be 14.25 (my calliper can measure only by 0.1, but it looks like "a bit more").
But - stabilizer plate insert is just 13.7 long!
And - photo of wire attached. I'm not sure, that moving stab by 0.5 cat save this situation.
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 14:46:06
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 31 August 2015, 14:55:25
I've found, that on both space bar, and 2u keys stabilizer insert (in keycap) rubs stabilizer insert in plate. In top part of it. So plate insert must be move upper. Looks like without 0.55mm gap at the top at all.
my initial findings were similar, however on all occasions I managed to make the current cutout work
If you move the cutouts upper, the wire might start touching the switch instead of the insert rubbing the insert-slider
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 15:09:38
(Hope, you understand me without paintings)
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 31 August 2015, 15:16:56
Just to clarify. Keycap insert is not symmetric. One side is short, anoter is long. Longer part upper? Short part to the wire?
(Hope, you understand me without paintings)
True
Post by: tinimi on Mon, 31 August 2015, 15:17:14
Post by: tinimi on Tue, 01 September 2015, 05:57:14
Thanks for your help! Next time I will choose cherry plate stabs ;D
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 01 September 2015, 06:41:46
I've done hand made straight wire (without curve in the middle) - and now it don't hit spacebar. But I need to move stabilizer mounts a bit upper - probably by 0.2mm.
Thanks for your help! Next time I will choose cherry plate stabs ;D
I also hand bend the wire, but I bend the curved one to make it clear better and have a better keypress experience, without the clumsiness
You've experienced and solved Costar issues now, wait till you experience Cherry ones, they might not be as easily solve-able as the Costar's, Costar stabs are also easy to replace, easy to re-work, that's now the case with the Cherry
The only advantage of Cherry seems to be the keycap clearance, which is a significant advantage, I will also retry Cherry stabs for my next keyboard, but 90% I will stick to Costar's
Post by: StormyMonday on Fri, 04 September 2015, 01:09:51
You guys both make great points. I personally chose the square holes for my build for the reasons JD pointed out. I will make the H the default, that's a good call.Hi swill, I chose the "medium" cutout type with 12 edges. The cutouts were precisely lasercutted into 1,5mm steel. My original MX switches can move freely from left to right for about ... ~0.6mm, I would estimate. They sit tight enough that this is not a real issue. I just ask, if I shall change the cutout design to 15.0mm*14.0mm for the next batch, ie. shrinking the horizontal cutout width by 0.6mm, what do you think?
Do you really need the side cutouts for switch opening? I VERY rarely use them, as I normally just desolder the switches if I want to replace them with another type.
I HIGHLY recommend using the simple square cutouts if you can go without the cutouts for switch opening. And I also recommend picking one type of stabilizer hole and sticking with it, whether it be Cherry or Costar.
The 15.6 x 12.8 Alps rectangle merged with the 14 x 14 MX square is a compromise, designed to allow for use of Alps switches or MX switches on the same plate. It has the added benefit of allowing for easy switch opening, by having the sides cut out for the tabs on the MX switch to open. But it has the disadvantage of introducing instability in the switch hole, if the cuts are not made to EXTREMELY tight tolerances. Like 0.03mm tolerance.
@swill, maybe make the square holes to be the default, rather than the "rectangle on square design." Really, even the "H" cutout would cause less problems, while being more expensive. This tool is designed for ease-of-use, not necessarily advanced options by default, in my mind.
Thanks for the feedback Eszett, I hope you are happy with your build. :)
If I may be so bold, one of these days, when you have some spare time :p please consider giving us some dedicated Alps mounting holes. That would make the drawings less complicated, the fabrication less costly and the need for precision less exacting.
Post by: StormyMonday on Fri, 04 September 2015, 04:17:43
I have no clue to be honest (I asked for 1.5 mm steel), it was cheap as hell (~25$ for what you see) and it came greasy as **** so I wanted to clean it up a bit so I can try some switches. I already found someone who will powder coat it for another ~20$ but I've already tweaked my layout and I think I'm gonna discard this one.
This is revision 2 :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/OXE4Z1U.png)
The thickness of powdercoat can vary dramatically and it can also be quite thick. Usually, it is preferred to mask off any critical areas (screw threads and the like) prior to its application. I don't want to scare you away, just make you aware that if you start off with a 1.5mm plate, it won't take much film thickness for your components to no longer fit. I would suggest that you share these concerns with the person who will perform the application.
You might also visit your friendly neighborhood gunsmith. There are many speciality coatings that have been developed for firearms that are not only protective, but are also attractive. They also, necessarily, have a very thin film thickness, otherwise the mechanism of the firearm would bind.
Post by: StormyMonday on Fri, 04 September 2015, 04:33:45
I have no clue to be honest (I asked for 1.5 mm steel), it was cheap as hell (~25$ for what you see) and it came greasy as **** so I wanted to clean it up a bit so I can try some switches. I already found someone who will powder coat it for another ~20$ but I've already tweaked my layout and I think I'm gonna discard this one.
This is revision 2 :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/OXE4Z1U.png)
By the way, I really think that you are onto something here. I've always admired the FC-660C/M from afar (I even have a basic design in the keyboard editor), but I was never sure that I could live with it. Your design may push me over the edge.
Thanks for sharing. :thumb:
Post by: StormyMonday on Fri, 04 September 2015, 04:58:04
I figure I might as well document this feature now that it may become relevant for people's prototyping. I actually added this feature a month or so ago at Melvang's request. The feature is basically the ability to change the size (and shape) of the square switch cutout. NOTE: This functionality ONLY works on the square cutout shape, the settings will be ignored for all other shape cutouts.
I alluded to this functionality in this post when talking about building a simple and inexpensive lube station out of plastic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1660210#msg1660210).
I think this is relevant to the current conversation because it may work out to be the cheapest way to prototype hand wired cases.
So here is the idea. You have a 1.5mm switch plate laser cut out of acrylic. We all know that 1.5mm acrylic will never hold as the only support for a keyboard plate. So we would have to add a supporting layer underneath the switch layer. I would suggest using something like 3mm acrylic or maybe even something like wood. Of course, in order to add this layer, the openings have to be bigger than the switch plate so the switches will clip into the 1.5mm switch plate.
To illustrate, the switch plate would be 1.5mm and would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
You would then have a support layer with 16mm square holes in, say, 3mm acrylic or wood which would go under the switch layer and would look like:
(Attachment Link)
When you put the switch layer on top of the support layer, it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
I suspect we can get some relatively inexpensive prototype cases built this way. I would be interested in doing it in 100% acrylic and putting my LEDs on the bottom of the switch in a hand wired setup.
Ok, so how does this feature work already?!? Get to the interesting part...
So if you add a background color to your layout and then look at the raw data, you will see this new object at the top of the raw data:
(Attachment Link)
We are going to piggyback off that object and add our config into that object to change the shape of the square. In this case we are going to grow the square by 2mm in both width and height resulting in a 16mm square hole, so we would put the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:2,grow_y:2},
Now the interesting thing here is that you can grow in both a positive or negative direction. So if you wanted to cut an Alps Only plate and keep it on the cheap, you could do the following:Code: [Select]{backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1},
This would result in the following cutout:
(Attachment Link)
I think that is enough for this post. If you have more questions or would like to discuss the feature more, fire away...
Sorry, it looks like it is possible to do an Alps only switch plate, after all. ;D I don't know how I missed this, but I can't wait to tinker with it.
EDIT:
My objective today was to generate a drawing for a plate, which is suitable for mounting Alps / Matias switches.
As instructed, I added a background color to a design in the keyboard-layout-editor. This did not, however, add a {backcolor: "#xxxxxx"}, line to the top of my raw data file. I went in circles for a few minutes trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Finally I just copied and pasted {backcolor:"#505050",grow_x:1.6,grow_y:-1.1}, as a new first line for my raw data file. I imported this into the "Plate & Case Builder" tool and voilà, it spat out mounting holes for Alps switches.
Hopefully, this will save someone else a couple of minutes of head scratching.
I imported the resulting *.DXF file into SAGCAD, which is supposed to be a friendly CAD program, but since all of the documentation is in Japanese, I haven't found it to be all that friendly. I have managed to verify that the generated mounting holes are 15.6mm x 12.9mm, but I think that I'll give LibreCAD a go, next.
NOTE:
If anyone else decides to trod this path, be aware that the thickness for an Alps-compatible plate is only 1.0-1.2mm.
Source: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Forward_Electronics_--_spec_--_SKBMFA.pdf
Since Swill's tool generates a 2D drawing, it does not contain a thickness specification. Make sure that your fabricator does not assume that a 1.5mm plate is a one size fits all solution.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 04 September 2015, 22:56:09
I have no clue to be honest (I asked for 1.5 mm steel), it was cheap as hell (~25$ for what you see) and it came greasy as **** so I wanted to clean it up a bit so I can try some switches. I already found someone who will powder coat it for another ~20$ but I've already tweaked my layout and I think I'm gonna discard this one.
This is revision 2 :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/OXE4Z1U.png)
The thickness of powdercoat can vary dramatically and it can also be quite thick. Usually, it is preferred to mask off any critical areas (screw threads and the like) prior to its application. I don't want to scare you away, just make you aware that if you start off with a 1.5mm plate, it won't take much film thickness for your components to no longer fit. I would suggest that you share these concerns with the person who will perform the application.
You might also visit your friendly neighborhood gunsmith. There are many speciality coatings that have been developed for firearms that are not only protective, but are also attractive. They also, necessarily, have a very thin film thickness, otherwise the mechanism of the firearm would bind.
Cerokote is what you are looking for here. Last time.e I checked, certain colors can be applied as thin as .006" thick.
Post by: swill on Tue, 29 September 2015, 21:47:45
This update has been a LONG time in coming. I had to do a major rewrite for how I handle the dimensions of the plates and how absolute positioning changes those dimensions. Many pieces of the drawing code have been completely rewritten with this update. Hopefully it all is worth it, because the builder now supports rotated clusters and absolute positioning of clusters.
So for example, here is a draw of the Ergodox layout:
[attachimg=1]
Code:
More
[{x:3.5},"#\n3",{x:10.5},"*\n8"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"@\n2",{x:1},"$\n4",{x:8.5},"&\n7",{x:1},"(\n9"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"%\n5",{a:7},"",{x:4.5},"",{a:4},"^\n6"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"!\n1",{x:14.5},")\n0",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5,a:4},"E",{x:10.5},"I"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"W",{x:1},"R",{x:8.5},"U",{x:1},"O"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"T",{a:7,h:1.5},"",{x:4.5,h:1.5},"",{a:4},"Y"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"Q",{x:14.5},"P",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5,a:4},"D",{x:10.5},"K"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"S",{x:1},"F",{x:8.5},"J",{x:1},"L"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"G",{x:6.5},"H"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"A",{x:14.5},":\n;",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.625,x:6.5,h:1.5},"",{x:4.5,h:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.5,a:4},"C",{x:10.5},"<\n,"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"X",{x:1},"V",{x:8.5},"M",{x:1},">\n."],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"B",{x:6.5},"N"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"Z",{x:14.5},"?\n/",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5},"",{x:10.5},""],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"",{x:1},"",{x:8.5},"",{x:1},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:0.5},"","",{x:14.5},"",""],
[{r:30,rx:6.5,ry:4.25,y:-1,x:1},"",""],
[{h:2,_rs:180},"",{h:2,_rs:180},"",""],
[{x:2},""],
[{r:-30,rx:13,y:-1,x:-3},"",""],
[{x:-3},"",{h:2},"",{h:2},""],
[{x:-3},""]
Or you can create each of the hands individually (code included below):
Left Hand:
[attachimg=2]
Code:
More
[{x:3.5},"#\n3"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"@\n2",{x:1},"$\n4"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"%\n5",{a:7},""],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"!\n1"],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5,a:4},"E"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"W",{x:1},"R"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"T",{a:7,h:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"Q"],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5,a:4},"D"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"S",{x:1},"F"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"G"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"A"],
[{y:-0.625,x:6.5,h:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.5,a:4},"C"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"X",{x:1},"V"],
[{y:-0.875,x:5.5},"B"],
[{y:-0.875,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4},"Z"],
[{y:-0.375,x:3.5},""],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.5},"",{x:1},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:0.5},"",""],
[{r:30,rx:6.5,ry:4.25,y:-1,x:1},"",""],
[{h:2},"",{h:2},"",""],
[{x:2},""]
Right Hand:
[attachimg=3]
Code:
More
[{x:5.1},"*\n8"],
[{y:-0.875,x:4.1},"&\n7",{x:1},"(\n9"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.1},"",{a:4},"^\n6"],
[{y:-0.875,x:7.1},")\n0",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:5.1},"I"],
[{y:-0.875,x:4.1},"U",{x:1},"O"],
[{y:-0.875,x:2.1,h:1.5},"",{a:4},"Y"],
[{y:-0.875,x:7.1},"P",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:5.1},"K"],
[{y:-0.875,x:4.1},"J",{x:1},"L"],
[{y:-0.875,x:3.1},"H"],
[{y:-0.875,x:7.1},":\n;",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.625,x:2.1,h:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:5.1},"<\n,"],
[{y:-0.875,x:4.1},"M",{x:1},">\n."],
[{y:-0.875,x:3.1},"N"],
[{y:-0.875,x:7.1},"?\n/",{a:7,w:1.5},""],
[{y:-0.375,x:5.1},""],
[{y:-0.875,x:4.1},"",{x:1},""],
[{y:-0.75,x:7.1},"",""],
[{r:-30,rx:3.1,ry:4.25,y:-1,x:-3},"",""],
[{x:-3},"",{h:2},"",{h:2},""],
[{x:-3},""]
With this change there is one sporadic issue that I still have to resolve, which I will work on over the next week or so.
Sometimes the stabilizers are not drawing correctly. Basically, I currently have the switch cutouts and the stabilizer cutouts as different shapes and I union the shapes together based on the selected configuration. Unfortunately the algorithm for the union has some issues and the union does not always work. The algorithm is very complex already, so I have not tried to create a pull request for that module yet. This problem happens mainly with the Ergodox layout because the angles seem to cause a higher rate of failure. Sometimes changing the amount of padding for the plate changes the numbers enough that the union works, or flipping the stabilizer (eg: {_rs:180}) will make it draw correctly. In short, double check your plates to make sure the stabilizers are drawn correctly for now.
Instead of doing the union, I will probably just manually draw out all permutations of possible switch + stabilizer cutouts as individual drawings and then just reference them based on the scenario. This should resolve the problem and make the draw function less error prone.
I fixed a number of minor issues with this build, but this post is getting long, so I won't cover them in detail...
Since this is a major change to the code, please let me know if you find anything that you feel may be an issue.
Post by: Zustiur on Thu, 01 October 2015, 00:14:10
Post by: swill on Thu, 01 October 2015, 06:17:11
Woohoo. Now I just need the pcb equivalent!There are a few projects starting to work on that problem. I have been thinking about the problem and trying to see how I can add that to this tool, but it is not trivial. I will probably give it a shot in the near future, but don't expect anything for a while. :)
Post by: Zustiur on Thu, 01 October 2015, 21:51:22
I did see that others had started doing that but when I actually wanted them I couldn't find any of them!
Post by: swill on Thu, 01 October 2015, 21:54:29
No pressure.
I did see that others had started doing that but when I actually wanted them I couldn't find any of them!
This is probably the closest thing to a working solution so far.
Public site: http://kalerator.clueboard.co/
Github repo: https://github.com/skullydazed/kalerator
The main issue that you will probably have with this solution is that you need a licensed version of Eagle cad to be able to actually view a keyboard sized PCB. It is definitely a good start though...
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 02 October 2015, 23:34:59
I've been working on my own ventures, but I still need to send across my changes for alps cutouts. I got a sample back from big blue saw and once they adjusted the kerf for the 5000 series aluminum I specified it worked great. I also just got certified to use the laser cutter at my makerspace, so I'll be cutting out my own acrylic cases soon enough. :cool:
I also have a little something else I'll be sending over with my pull request:
Code: [Select]
skully@builder:~/kb_builder$ ./kb_cli -f foo
FreeCAD 0.16, Libs: 0.16R5358 (Git)
Processing: foo
...
Writing STEP file......
Face...
*******************************************************************
****** Statistics on Transfer (Write) ******
*******************************************************************
****** Transfer Mode = 0 I.E. As Is ******
****** Transferring Shape, ShapeType = 0 ******
** WorkSession : Sending all data
Step File Name : /home/skully/kb_builder/static/exports/switch_foo.stp(71734 ents) Write Done
saving......
processing Shape (99.0 %)
successfully exported /home/skully/kb_builder/static/exports/switch_foo.dxf
Finished: foo
Processing took: 44.63 seconds
**** Overall plate size: 322.325x103.25 mm
*** Files exported for plate switch
static/exports/switch_foo.js
static/exports/switch_foo.brp
static/exports/switch_foo.stp
static/exports/switch_foo.stl
static/exports/switch_foo.dxf
Post by: swill on Fri, 02 October 2015, 23:44:53
That's a pretty nice update! Great work!
I've been working on my own ventures, but I still need to send across my changes for alps cutouts. I got a sample back from big blue saw and once they adjusted the kerf for the 5000 series aluminum I specified it worked great. I also just got certified to use the laser cutter at my makerspace, so I'll be cutting out my own acrylic cases soon enough. :cool:
I also have a little something else I'll be sending over with my pull request:Code: [Select]skully@builder:~/kb_builder$ ./kb_cli -f foo
FreeCAD 0.16, Libs: 0.16R5358 (Git)
Processing: foo
...
Writing STEP file......
Face...
*******************************************************************
****** Statistics on Transfer (Write) ******
*******************************************************************
****** Transfer Mode = 0 I.E. As Is ******
****** Transferring Shape, ShapeType = 0 ******
** WorkSession : Sending all data
Step File Name : /home/skully/kb_builder/static/exports/switch_foo.stp(71734 ents) Write Done
saving......
processing Shape (99.0 %)
successfully exported /home/skully/kb_builder/static/exports/switch_foo.dxf
Finished: foo
Processing took: 44.63 seconds
**** Overall plate size: 322.325x103.25 mm
*** Files exported for plate switch
static/exports/switch_foo.js
static/exports/switch_foo.brp
static/exports/switch_foo.stp
static/exports/switch_foo.stl
static/exports/switch_foo.dxf
Nice. Glad BBS worked out for you. I have not heard of any issues with their stuff so far.
Looking like you are adding a CLI to the builder. I actually started that way and in the process of trying to make it a 'web service', I ended up removing it. Now that the open source python version is really targeting personal installs for makers, it really makes sense to have a CLI again. Maybe we can even support the new __repr__() as an input file type to the CLI. Regardless, love seeing the activity... :)
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 03 October 2015, 01:10:44
Nice. Glad BBS worked out for you. I have not heard of any issues with their stuff so far.
Looking like you are adding a CLI to the builder. I actually started that way and in the process of trying to make it a 'web service', I ended up removing it. Now that the open source python version is really targeting personal installs for makers, it really makes sense to have a CLI again. Maybe we can even support the new __repr__() as an input file type to the CLI. Regardless, love seeing the activity... :)
I think it may have been an inexperienced operator or something. The holes were .2mm wider than I specified, and I wasn't sure the surface of the cut was right, but BBS hopped right on it and made me a new plate. The new one measures perfectly.
I am adding a CLI. One of the problems I have right now is coming back to adjust my previously generated plates. I'm never quite sure if I got the corner radius right, and now that I have to worry about kerf I'll want to make sure I save those settings. The CLI is step 1 of doing that. :D
Post by: potatowire on Sat, 03 October 2015, 08:19:04
Nice. Glad BBS worked out for you. I have not heard of any issues with their stuff so far.
Looking like you are adding a CLI to the builder. I actually started that way and in the process of trying to make it a 'web service', I ended up removing it. Now that the open source python version is really targeting personal installs for makers, it really makes sense to have a CLI again. Maybe we can even support the new __repr__() as an input file type to the CLI. Regardless, love seeing the activity... :)
I think it may have been an inexperienced operator or something. The holes were .2mm wider than I specified, and I wasn't sure the surface of the cut was right, but BBS hopped right on it and made me a new plate. The new one measures perfectly.
I am adding a CLI. One of the problems I have right now is coming back to adjust my previously generated plates. I'm never quite sure if I got the corner radius right, and now that I have to worry about kerf I'll want to make sure I save those settings. The CLI is step 1 of doing that. :D
This is awesome, and I am particularly happy since I am going to try to modify your Kalerator code to be KiCAD compatible...
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 03 October 2015, 14:02:04
This is awesome, and I am particularly happy since I am going to try to modify your Kalerator code to be KiCAD compatible...
That would be awesome! If you do this I'd love to work with you so that kalerator could output either EAGLE or KiCAD when generating your PCB.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 October 2015, 14:05:24
I am also looking at ways to add kicad support to my main builder as well, so I am also very interested.This is awesome, and I am particularly happy since I am going to try to modify your Kalerator code to be KiCAD compatible...
That would be awesome! If you do this I'd love to work with you so that kalerator could output either EAGLE or KiCAD when generating your PCB.
Post by: potatowire on Sat, 03 October 2015, 22:24:27
I'll soon be on extended travel away from my family, and this is the project I'll use to occupy my free time. I will share all meaningful progress.I am also looking at ways to add kicad support to my main builder as well, so I am also very interested.This is awesome, and I am particularly happy since I am going to try to modify your Kalerator code to be KiCAD compatible...
That would be awesome! If you do this I'd love to work with you so that kalerator could output either EAGLE or KiCAD when generating your PCB.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 October 2015, 22:48:33
I'll soon be on extended travel away from my family, and this is the project I'll use to occupy my free time. I will share all meaningful progress.I am also looking at ways to add kicad support to my main builder as well, so I am also very interested.This is awesome, and I am particularly happy since I am going to try to modify your Kalerator code to be KiCAD compatible...
That would be awesome! If you do this I'd love to work with you so that kalerator could output either EAGLE or KiCAD when generating your PCB.
cool. :)
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:22:13
If i just put a single key, the drawing comes out weird and dislocated no matter what settings I try.
Once there is at least one other key, any layout seems to be fine.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 October 2015, 06:20:32
I tried to make a drawing for a single key and it's not working.Strange. I will check into that.
If i just put a single key, the drawing comes out weird and dislocated no matter what settings I try.
Once there is at least one other key, any layout seems to be fine.
So your input is basically just the following?
[""]
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Mon, 05 October 2015, 18:20:19
Tested [""] just now and got the same thing.
I tried moving the single key around and originally I was doing a 6.25 space bar.
All of the drawings end up weird as long as there is only 1 key.
Also, I was messing around with random giant sized key and noticed that the plate size doesn't account for the giant key unless there is another key in a higher row.
here it is being ignored
[{y:1,a:7,w:5,h:3},"",""]
But the moment the giant key is accounted for, the horizontal position of the other key is then ignored instead
[{y:0.75,x:5,a:7},""],
[{y:-0.75,w:5,h:3},""]
And after more testing it seems that happens for any long keys with another key.
long key ignored
[{y:1,a:7,h:2},"",""]
other key ignored
[{x:1,a:7},""],
[{h:2},""]
I'm too lazy to mess around anymore right now lol.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 October 2015, 18:22:22
I just copied the layout editor and used [{a:7},""]Thanks for the testing. I will try to look into this tonight. Sorry for the delay.
Tested [""] just now and got the same thing.
I tried moving the single key around and originally I was doing a 6.25 space bar.
All of the drawings end up weird as long as there is only 1 key.
Also, I was messing around with random giant sized key and noticed that the plate size doesn't account for the giant key unless there is another key in a higher row.
here it is being ignored
[{y:1,a:7,w:5,h:3},"",""]
But the moment the giant key is accounted for, the horizontal position of the other key is then ignored instead
[{y:0.75,x:5,a:7},""],
[{y:-0.75,w:5,h:3},""]
And after more testing it seems that happens for any long keys with another key.
long key ignored
[{y:1,a:7,h:2},"",""]
other key ignored
[{x:1,a:7},""],
[{h:2},""]
I'm too lazy to mess around anymore right now lol.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 October 2015, 23:05:03
I just copied the layout editor and used [{a:7},""]
Tested [""] just now and got the same thing.
I tried moving the single key around and originally I was doing a 6.25 space bar.
All of the drawings end up weird as long as there is only 1 key.
Also, I was messing around with random giant sized key and noticed that the plate size doesn't account for the giant key unless there is another key in a higher row.
here it is being ignored
[{y:1,a:7,w:5,h:3},"",""]
But the moment the giant key is accounted for, the horizontal position of the other key is then ignored instead
[{y:0.75,x:5,a:7},""],
[{y:-0.75,w:5,h:3},""]
And after more testing it seems that happens for any long keys with another key.
long key ignored
[{y:1,a:7,h:2},"",""]
other key ignored
[{x:1,a:7},""],
[{h:2},""]
I'm too lazy to mess around anymore right now lol.
Just did some testing. Yep, definitely some issues here. I will review this logic. This is probably due to the recent changes I made to support rotated clusters since I completely changed the way the plate dimensions and such were drawn. I even had a comment in my code to review the placement of the top left most key, but I didn't find any issues with it when I was testing standard layouts, so I pushed the code. I will have to spend a few train rides tracking down these issues. Thanks for reporting them... :) If you happen to find more interesting edge cases, let me know. I think what you have submitted so far is pretty good coverage of the types of errors with the placement of the first couple keys when they are non-standard keys.
Post by: StinkyTheDonut on Tue, 06 October 2015, 08:53:45
turns out its not just the big keys.
[{x:1,a:7},""],
[{y:-0.75},""]
[{x:0.25,a:7},""],
[""]
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 October 2015, 12:01:05
Code: [Select]
skully@builder:~/kb_builder$ ./kb_cli -f clueboard_ansi_basic.kle --case sandwich --usb-offset 134.4125 --stab matias --switch alps --corners 4 --pcb-height 4 --width 10
This will build a plate and case for matias stabilizers, which are alps-like for 2/2.25/2.75u keys, but costar for the spacebar. It will also make a little more vertical room inside the case to accommodate an existing PCB. Finally, it will move the USB cutout to the right by 134.4125 mm so that it lines up with the PCB's usb connector. When it's all said and done I end up with a plate and an open layer that look like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/KLkTsY7.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/yWUoNro.png)
The last feature I need to add is the ability to cut the corners instead of rounding them, and then I can make all of this work in the web UI too.
Swill, would you rather get new features to the engine early so you can review smaller chunks, or wait until I have the web ui components done too?
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 12:31:31
Swill, would you rather get new features to the engine early so you can review smaller chunks, or wait until I have the web ui components done too?
As you wish. I trust your ability, so I will do a quick review of the code before I merge it, but I will let you do the majority of the 'testing to make sure everything is not broken' is done. I will periodically do a fresh install from source and validate that things are working for the most part, but I have not worked an actual test suite into this (maybe I should look into this).
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 October 2015, 12:50:40
As you wish. I trust your ability, so I will do a quick review of the code before I merge it, but I will let you do the majority of the 'testing to make sure everything is not broken' is done. I will periodically do a fresh install from source and validate that things are working for the most part, but I have not worked an actual test suite into this (maybe I should look into this).
OK. I'm gonna test this design on the laser today and maybe do some tweaking, and then I'll send my work over.
I can help with that test suite if you want, I've done a bit of that for my old day job. If you want a good starting place I use py.test in kalerator here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kalerator/tree/master/tests
I can probably put together a basic framework for kb_builder too.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 13:06:46
As you wish. I trust your ability, so I will do a quick review of the code before I merge it, but I will let you do the majority of the 'testing to make sure everything is not broken' is done. I will periodically do a fresh install from source and validate that things are working for the most part, but I have not worked an actual test suite into this (maybe I should look into this).
OK. I'm gonna test this design on the laser today and maybe do some tweaking, and then I'll send my work over.
I can help with that test suite if you want, I've done a bit of that for my old day job. If you want a good starting place I use py.test in kalerator here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kalerator/tree/master/tests
I can probably put together a basic framework for kb_builder too.
cool. thanks... can you post what you are using for the sizing for the alps only cutout as well a the stabilizer sizes and locations so others in the community can validate the details? jdcarpe has been a great resource for validating the numbers being used since has has a lot of experience in plate design.
Off the top of my head, I think the alps cutout is: 15.6mm x 12.9mm
I don't remember what the location of the stabilizers are and their size, but I believe I JD sent that to me and I should have it in DXF file on my computer, just need to go find it.
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 October 2015, 13:41:56
Code: [Select]
(7.75-k,-6.4+k), (7.75-k,6.4-k),
(-7.75+k,6.4-k), (-7.75+k,-6.4+k),
(7.75-k,-6.4+k),
That works perfectly in both the 1.2mm plate from BBS and in the 2.4mm acrylic I cut on the laser cutter, but the laser seems to have a .3mm variance. I think if it were .1mm bigger it wouldn't work on the 1.1mm plate, as it's not exactly tight now.
Here are the stabs:
Code: [Select]
if w == 2.75:
mid_offset = 16.7
else:
mid_offset = 12.7
top_y = 4
bottom_y = 9
inside_x = mid_offset
outside_x = inside_x + 2.7
points_r = [
(inside_x+k, top_y+k), (outside_x-k, top_y+k),
(outside_x-k, bottom_y-k), (inside_x+k, bottom_y-k),
(inside_x+k, top_y+k)
]
inside_x *= -1
outside_x *= -1
points_l = [
(inside_x+k, top_y+k), (outside_x-k, top_y+k),
(outside_x-k, bottom_y-k), (inside_x+k, bottom_y-k),
(inside_x+k, top_y+k)
]
This puts the mid-point of the box either 16.7 or 12.7mm out from 0, and equal to the bottom of the switch cutout. The box itself is 2.7mm x 5mm. This is based on measuring with my micrometer, so I am not terribly confident in the stab cutouts.
I haven't yet implemented the alps spacebar stabs. Since matias uses costar stabs there I have decided to put that off. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 14:07:09
Here's the cutout for the alps switch:Code: [Select](7.75-k,-6.4+k), (7.75-k,6.4-k),
(-7.75+k,6.4-k), (-7.75+k,-6.4+k),
(7.75-k,-6.4+k),
That works perfectly in both the 1.2mm plate from BBS and in the 2.4mm acrylic I cut on the laser cutter, but the laser seems to have a .3mm variance. I think if it were .1mm bigger it wouldn't work on the 1.1mm plate, as it's not exactly tight now.
Here are the stabs:Code: [Select]if w == 2.75:
mid_offset = 16.7
else:
mid_offset = 12.7
top_y = 4
bottom_y = 9
inside_x = mid_offset
outside_x = inside_x + 2.7
points_r = [
(inside_x+k, top_y+k), (outside_x-k, top_y+k),
(outside_x-k, bottom_y-k), (inside_x+k, bottom_y-k),
(inside_x+k, top_y+k)
]
inside_x *= -1
outside_x *= -1
points_l = [
(inside_x+k, top_y+k), (outside_x-k, top_y+k),
(outside_x-k, bottom_y-k), (inside_x+k, bottom_y-k),
(inside_x+k, top_y+k)
]
This puts the mid-point of the box either 16.7 or 12.7mm out from 0, and equal to the bottom of the switch cutout. The box itself is 2.7mm x 5mm. This is based on measuring with my micrometer, so I am not terribly confident in the stab cutouts.
I haven't yet implemented the alps spacebar stabs. Since matias uses costar stabs there I have decided to put that off. :)
Ok. You should use the same 2u stab layout for all keys that are in the range of 2u >= key > 3u, so that will cover all those keys with a single set piece of code.
Also, the kb_builder lets you specify a different stabilizer type for each switch, so you could have the default to 'alps' and then for the spacebar just add the {_s:2} to make the spacebar have a costar only stabilizer type. This makes it easy to adapt the build to whatever stabilizers you are using. I would recommend implementing a generic alps configuration and if someone needs to change stab types for specific layouts, they can do that by modifying that specific key.
Edit: I would recommend reviewing the costar stabilizer logic.
Here is the 2u costar stabilizer logic...
Code: [Select]
# cut 2 unit stabilizer cutout
if (w >= 2 and w < 3) or (rotate and h >= 2 and h < 3): # 2 unit stabilizer
if s == 2:
# costar stabilizers only
points_l = [(-10.3-k,-6.45+k), (-13.6+k,-6.45+k), (-13.6+k,7.75-k), (-10.3-k,7.75-k), (-10.3-k,-6.45+k)]
points_r = [(10.3+k,-6.45+k), (13.6-k,-6.45+k), (13.6-k,7.75-k), (10.3+k,7.75-k), (10.3+k,-6.45+k)]
if rotate:
points_l = self.rotate_points(points_l, 90, (0,0))
points_r = self.rotate_points(points_r, 90, (0,0))
if rs:
points_l = self.rotate_points(points_l, rs, (0,0))
points_r = self.rotate_points(points_r, rs, (0,0))
p = p.polyline(points_l).cutThruAll()
p = p.polyline(points_r).cutThruAll()
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 October 2015, 15:01:57
Ok. You should use the same 2u stab layout for all keys that are in the range of 2u >= key > 3u, so that will cover all those keys with a single set piece of code.
For alps that only works for 2U and 2.25U stabs. The 2.75U stab is a different length, that's why I have the if statement for the mid_offset. That could probably be simplified to something like the following, but the same logic applies either way:
Code: [Select]
inside_x = 16.7 if w == 2.75 else 12.7
Also, the kb_builder lets you specify a different stabilizer type for each switch, so you could have the default to 'alps' and then for the spacebar just add the {_s:2} to make the spacebar have a costar only stabilizer type. This makes it easy to adapt the build to whatever stabilizers you are using. I would recommend implementing a generic alps configuration and if someone needs to change stab types for specific layouts, they can do that by modifying that specific key.
I think I'm ahead of you there. This is what I have planned:
Code: [Select]
--stab STAB Stabilizer type: cherry, costar, (*)cherry-costar, alps, matias
If you select alps you'll get traditional alps style stabilizers everywhere. If you select matias you get alps stabs most places but costar for the spacebar. This way someone could use traditional alps and add {_s:2}, or they can simply select matias. I think doing it this way will lead to more people having success with the tool when making alps plates.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 15:27:04
Ok. You should use the same 2u stab layout for all keys that are in the range of 2u >= key > 3u, so that will cover all those keys with a single set piece of code.
For alps that only works for 2U and 2.25U stabs. The 2.75U stab is a different length, that's why I have the if statement for the mid_offset. That could probably be simplified to something like the following, but the same logic applies either way:Code: [Select]inside_x = 16.7 if w == 2.75 else 12.7Also, the kb_builder lets you specify a different stabilizer type for each switch, so you could have the default to 'alps' and then for the spacebar just add the {_s:2} to make the spacebar have a costar only stabilizer type. This makes it easy to adapt the build to whatever stabilizers you are using. I would recommend implementing a generic alps configuration and if someone needs to change stab types for specific layouts, they can do that by modifying that specific key.
I think I'm ahead of you there. This is what I have planned:Code: [Select]--stab STAB Stabilizer type: cherry, costar, (*)cherry-costar, alps, matias
If you select alps you'll get traditional alps style stabilizers everywhere. If you select matias you get alps stabs most places but costar for the spacebar. This way someone could use traditional alps and add {_s:2}, or they can simply select matias. I think doing it this way will lead to more people having success with the tool when making alps plates.
Ok, I didn't realize that the stab size was different for 2.75u. Thanks... :)
Regarding the --stab STAB having matias as an option, does matias support different size spacebars? How would you determine which keys should have different stabilizer types? Based on the width of the key?
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 October 2015, 15:54:41
Regarding the --stab STAB having matias as an option, does matias support different size spacebars? How would you determine which keys should have different stabilizer types? Based on the width of the key?
Yes, right now if it's 2 <= w < 3 it'll be an alps stab, if any other length costar. This matches the stabilizer set that matias sells, which comes with a 6.25U and 7U stabilizer wire.
One of the things I need to figure out still is what the spacing for vintage spacebars is. I have a 6.5U here but need at least 6.25u and 7u, and hopefully we can divine a rule for length beyond that.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:43:51
I want to add extra length to both the top and bottom of the plate, but much more on the bottom side as a psuedo rest.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:46:14
Is there a way to add padding to the plate on one side only?Not at this time, but I may be able to find a way to hack it. I will do a few tests and see what I can come up with.
I want to add extra length to both the top and bottom of the plate, but much more on the bottom side as a psuedo rest.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:48:30
Is there a way to add padding to the plate on one side only?Not at this time, but I may be able to find a way to hack it. I will do a few tests and see what I can come up with.
I want to add extra length to both the top and bottom of the plate, but much more on the bottom side as a psuedo rest.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
If not I am sure I can do it in Solidworks if my year isn't up yet.
Is there a run down to fix the units stuffs in SolidWorks student edition? If not, can you help me with a custom TOP SECRET UBER CLASSIFIED project swill?
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:56:45
Is there a way to add padding to the plate on one side only?Not at this time, but I may be able to find a way to hack it. I will do a few tests and see what I can come up with.
I want to add extra length to both the top and bottom of the plate, but much more on the bottom side as a psuedo rest.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
If not I am sure I can do it in Solidworks if my year isn't up yet.
Is there a run down to fix the units stuffs in SolidWorks student edition? If not, can you help me with a custom TOP SECRET UBER CLASSIFIED project swill?
Ya, I can give you a hand, just PM me.
I was able to hack something together. It is not perfect, but it is a start. You will have to add the mount holes in something like FreeCAD or LibreCAD or something like that after, but this is the idea...
Code: [Select]
[{y:-3},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Notice the first row has a {y:-3} offset.
Then use something like this for the padding section.
[attachimg=1]
This would result in something like the following plate.
[attachimg=2]
You can tweak the y offset (can be a decimal) and the height padding to give yourself the amount of space you want around the edge of the plate and the bottom.
Does that help?
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:59:46
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
It depends on how your stuff is setup. If you use mm by default then you should be fine. If you use inches by default, then you will need to save the actual units of measure into the exported file. If you need help with this just let me know. If I don't have a video for doing this I can create one and put it in the OP.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:01:04
Is there a way to add padding to the plate on one side only?Not at this time, but I may be able to find a way to hack it. I will do a few tests and see what I can come up with.
I want to add extra length to both the top and bottom of the plate, but much more on the bottom side as a psuedo rest.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
If not I am sure I can do it in Solidworks if my year isn't up yet.
Is there a run down to fix the units stuffs in SolidWorks student edition? If not, can you help me with a custom TOP SECRET UBER CLASSIFIED project swill?
Ya, I can give you a hand, just PM me.
I was able to hack something together. It is not perfect, but it is a start. You will have to add the mount holes in something like FreeCAD or LibreCAD or something like that after, but this is the idea...Code: [Select][{y:-3},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Notice the first row has a {y:-3} offset.
Then use something like this for the padding section.
(Attachment Link)
This would result in something like the following plate.
(Attachment Link)
You can tweak the y offset (can be a decimal) and the height padding to give yourself the amount of space you want around the edge of the plate and the bottom.
Does that help?
I should be able to make something work here.
Edit: Also, do we still have to do funny stuff to the files due to units issues?
It depends on how your stuff is setup. If you use mm by default then you should be fine. If you use inches by default, then you will need to save the actual units of measure into the exported file. If you need help with this just let me know. If I don't have a video for doing this I can create one and put it in the OP.
Thanks again Swill.
Edit: So I am messing around with that, and is working as advertised, though it doesn't like a number <1. I wouldn't worry to much about it though. But what does that number represent? Unit size so 1=19.05mm/3/4"?
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:11:49
Thanks again Swill.
For sure. I am probably going to be a bit side tracked this week and won't have too much time to dedicate to this project since I am currently building some other GH related tools. I am building an application that will let you search GH PMs. For the guys who run GBs and get 100s of PMs a day, this should make their life easier. I will pilot this pm searching application with a couple people who really need it for now and if I get it to a point where I feel I can open it up to the world I will. All to say, I won't be as reactive to bug fixing in this tool for a week or so...
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:15:06
Thanks again Swill.
For sure. I am probably going to be a bit side tracked this week and won't have too much time to dedicate to this project since I am currently building some other GH related tools. I am building an application that will let you search GH PMs. For the guys who run GBs and get 100s of PMs a day, this should make their life easier. I will pilot this pm searching application with a couple people who really need it for now and if I get it to a point where I feel I can open it up to the world I will. All to say, I won't be as reactive to bug fixing in this tool for a week or so...
Thats fine. If I am assuming my Edit in my last post is correct, if I enter -2, then set vertical padding to 57.15 and horizontal padding to 19.05, I will have 1 unit to both sides and the top, with 5 units below.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:15:33
Edit: So I am messing around with that, and is working as advertised, though it doesn't like a number <1. I wouldn't worry to much about it though. But what does that number represent? Unit size so 1=19.05mm/3/4"?
1 should be 1 key unit which is equal 19.05mm. For values < 1, you need to prefix the number with a 0. So .25 would be 0.25 otherwise it does not like it...
StinkyTheDonut has reported some strange behaviour with the placement of the first key(s), so there are definitely a couple bugs in this area that I need to spend some time fixing...
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:20:10
Thanks again Swill.
For sure. I am probably going to be a bit side tracked this week and won't have too much time to dedicate to this project since I am currently building some other GH related tools. I am building an application that will let you search GH PMs. For the guys who run GBs and get 100s of PMs a day, this should make their life easier. I will pilot this pm searching application with a couple people who really need it for now and if I get it to a point where I feel I can open it up to the world I will. All to say, I won't be as reactive to bug fixing in this tool for a week or so...
Thats fine. If I am assuming my Edit in my last post is correct, if I enter -2, then set vertical padding to 57.15 and horizontal padding to 19.05, I will have 1 unit to both sides and the top, with 5 units below.
Because this is a hack, I don't think it will work exactly as you expect there. I think you will end up with 1u around the left, top and right, but only 3u on the bottom.
Edit: So I think you will have to do 19.05*(number of key units you want on the bottom) as your height padding. That padding - (neg y offset * 19.05) will give you to space above the keys. Does that make any sense? It is because the bottom padding will only ever max out to be what you specify in the height padding and the top padding will use the negative y offset to subtract from the top height padding. So you will not end up with 2 times the height padding and the layout just translated as you are expecting. The negative y offset actually removes that amount of padding from the top.
Post by: swill on Thu, 15 October 2015, 07:49:33
If you are having problems with this, here are a couple things I have found that can change the behavior of the draw and can sometimes make the union work by changing to points just slightly.
- flip the stabilizer cutout: {_rs:180}
- modify the padding slightly and try again
Your problems are not falling on deaf ears. Every time someone has a problem I get notified, so I definitely know I need to get to this soon...
[attachimg=1]
ps - if you are interested in my slack daemon for pushing errors into slack, you can check it out here, its open source: https://github.com/swill/slackd
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 19 October 2015, 11:21:30
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/waterjet-and-laser-cut-keyboard-plates.html
One is a JD40 plate with a case all as one file, the other is the same case designed for 3mm acrylic, and without the top plate.
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/index.php?option=com_estimator&step=20&file=A0A0-A0A0-jd40_With_case_for1.5mmMaterial.dxf&material=3&thickness=0.06
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/index.php?option=com_estimator&step=20&file=A0A0-A0A0-jd40_caseonly_for3mmMaterial.dxf&material=4&thickness=0.118
This makes it as if you're either ordering the whole thing as the same material or ordering the plate separately from the case, as if you wanted a different material.
There was some confusion over the pricing because people were uploading each individual piece in a complete set as a separate file and then getting sticker shock because each piece was quantity 1. In reality, the way to get the best prices is to put everything that's the same material into the same file.
Post by: swill on Thu, 22 October 2015, 08:08:59
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 22 October 2015, 20:16:53
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Fri, 23 October 2015, 08:35:57
My design has a single switch on the bottom row that is .25u lower than the rest of the keys on the bottom row. Older versions of the Plate Builder used to draw a cutout on the middle layers of a sandwich case. But sometime during the summer, the Plate Builder stopped doing this. This isn't much of an issue for me because I can always make the cutout myself, should the need arise, but I mentioned it in case it is indicative of an issue that might affect other elements of the tool's function or in case it is related to another issue that someone has brought to your attention and could help you diagnose the issue. I included a mock-up of what the tool used to draw.
(Attachment Link)
Can you post me the KLE code you used to draw this plate so I can test?
When I added the ability to draw rotated clusters (like the ergodox), it ended up introducing some bugs that are hard to track down. Not sure how this one happened, but I will check it and see what is going on once you send me the code. Thanks for letting me know...
Post by: derezzed on Fri, 23 October 2015, 22:00:25
My design has a single switch on the bottom row that is .25u lower than the rest of the keys on the bottom row. Older versions of the Plate Builder used to draw a cutout on the middle layers of a sandwich case. But sometime during the summer, the Plate Builder stopped doing this. This isn't much of an issue for me because I can always make the cutout myself, should the need arise, but I mentioned it in case it is indicative of an issue that might affect other elements of the tool's function or in case it is related to another issue that someone has brought to your attention and could help you diagnose the issue. I included a mock-up of what the tool used to draw.
(Attachment Link)
Can you post me the KLE code you used to draw this plate so I can test?
When I added the ability to draw rotated clusters (like the ergodox), it ended up introducing some bugs that are hard to track down. Not sure how this one happened, but I will check it and see what is going on once you send me the code. Thanks for letting me know...
Here it is:
["~\n`","!\n1\n\n\nF1","@\n2\n\n\nF2","#\n3\n\n\nF3","$\n4\n\n\nF4","%\n5\n\n\nF5","^\n6\n\n\nF6","&\n7\n\n\nF7","*\n8\n\n\nF8","(\n9\n\n\nF9",")\n0\n\n\nF10","_\n-\n\n\nF11","+\n=\n\n\nF12",{c:"#999999"},"Home\n\n\n\nPgUp","End\n\n\n\nPgDn"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab",{c:"#cccccc"},"Q","W\n\n\n\nClick1","E\n\n\n\nMsUp","R\n\n\n\nClick2","T","Y\n\n\n\nIns","U\n\n\n\nHome","I\n\n\n\n↑","O\n\n\n\nEnd","P\n\n\n\nBackSpc","{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#999999",w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Ctrl",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S\n\n\n\nMsLt","D\n\n\n\nMsDn","F\n\n\n\nMsRt","G","H\n\n\n\nPgUp","J\n\n\n\n←","K\n\n\n\n↓","L\n\n\n\n→",":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#999999",w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift",{c:"#cccccc"},"Z","X","C","V","B","N\n\n\n\nPgDn","M\n\n\n\nDel","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#999999",w:1.75},"RShift",{c:"#6897ca"},"↑"],
["Esc",{c:"#999999",w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt","Del",{w:2},"Backspace",{c:"#6897ca",h:1.5},"Fn",{c:"#999999",w:2},"Space",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"RCtrl",{c:"#6897ca"},"←","→","↓"]
I used this design last night with the Plate Builder and I noticed that the padding is larger than it used to be. Previously 6mm padding was rendered at very nearly 6mm (my readings may have been off due to not selecting the second point perfectly vertical to the first point of the distance measuring tool in LibreCAD) but, last night, the padding was over 8 mm on the sides and top, and over 13mm on the bottom. I also tried reducing the function key to 1u vertical and dropping it .25u below the bottom row and it didn't change anything.
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Fri, 23 October 2015, 23:24:43
My design has a single switch on the bottom row that is .25u lower than the rest of the keys on the bottom row. Older versions of the Plate Builder used to draw a cutout on the middle layers of a sandwich case. But sometime during the summer, the Plate Builder stopped doing this. This isn't much of an issue for me because I can always make the cutout myself, should the need arise, but I mentioned it in case it is indicative of an issue that might affect other elements of the tool's function or in case it is related to another issue that someone has brought to your attention and could help you diagnose the issue. I included a mock-up of what the tool used to draw.
(Attachment Link)
Can you post me the KLE code you used to draw this plate so I can test?
When I added the ability to draw rotated clusters (like the ergodox), it ended up introducing some bugs that are hard to track down. Not sure how this one happened, but I will check it and see what is going on once you send me the code. Thanks for letting me know...
Here it is:
["~\n`","!\n1\n\n\nF1","@\n2\n\n\nF2","#\n3\n\n\nF3","$\n4\n\n\nF4","%\n5\n\n\nF5","^\n6\n\n\nF6","&\n7\n\n\nF7","*\n8\n\n\nF8","(\n9\n\n\nF9",")\n0\n\n\nF10","_\n-\n\n\nF11","+\n=\n\n\nF12",{c:"#999999"},"Home\n\n\n\nPgUp","End\n\n\n\nPgDn"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab",{c:"#cccccc"},"Q","W\n\n\n\nClick1","E\n\n\n\nMsUp","R\n\n\n\nClick2","T","Y\n\n\n\nIns","U\n\n\n\nHome","I\n\n\n\n↑","O\n\n\n\nEnd","P\n\n\n\nBackSpc","{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#999999",w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Ctrl",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S\n\n\n\nMsLt","D\n\n\n\nMsDn","F\n\n\n\nMsRt","G","H\n\n\n\nPgUp","J\n\n\n\n←","K\n\n\n\n↓","L\n\n\n\n→",":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#999999",w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift",{c:"#cccccc"},"Z","X","C","V","B","N\n\n\n\nPgDn","M\n\n\n\nDel","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#999999",w:1.75},"RShift",{c:"#6897ca"},"↑"],
["Esc",{c:"#999999",w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt","Del",{w:2},"Backspace",{c:"#6897ca",h:1.5},"Fn",{c:"#999999",w:2},"Space",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"RCtrl",{c:"#6897ca"},"←","→","↓"]
I used this design last night with the Plate Builder and I noticed that the padding is larger than it used to be. Previously 6mm padding was rendered at very nearly 6mm (my readings may have been off due to not selecting the second point perfectly vertical to the first point of the distance measuring tool in LibreCAD) but, last night, the padding was over 8 mm on the sides and top, and over 13mm on the bottom. I also tried reducing the function key to 1u vertical and dropping it .25u below the bottom row and it didn't change anything.
(Attachment Link)
So this is actually drawing correctly. The padding is 6mm on the outside of the keycap, not the switch. The keycaps are basically 19mm wide for 1u, so that means that 19-14 = 5. So if you have no padding there should be 2.5mm of material between the cutout and the edge of the plate. If you add 6mm to that, it gives you the 8.5mm to the switch edge as you have verified. So that is actually correct...
For the bottom Fn key, you have (((19 * 1.5) - 14) / 2) + 6 = 13.25, so that is correct too.
So are you trying to make that one key .25u lower than the bottom row, but you don't want the bottom boundary of that cap to be the calculated edge of the board, you want that key to be pushed down into the padding and for there to be 6mm padding around the keycaps everywhere around the board except for that key?
Let me think about how to do that and see if I can come up with a solution for you...
Post by: swill on Fri, 23 October 2015, 23:31:18
Here is the code:
Code: [Select]
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1\n\n\nF1","@\n2\n\n\nF2","#\n3\n\n\nF3","$\n4\n\n\nF4","%\n5\n\n\nF5","^\n6\n\n\nF6","&\n7\n\n\nF7","*\n8\n\n\nF8","(\n9\n\n\nF9",")\n0\n\n\nF10","_\n-\n\n\nF11","+\n=\n\n\nF12",{c:"#999999"},"Home\n\n\n\nPgUp","End\n\n\n\nPgDn"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab",{c:"#cccccc"},"Q","W\n\n\n\nClick1","E\n\n\n\nMsUp","R\n\n\n\nClick2","T","Y\n\n\n\nIns","U\n\n\n\nHome","I\n\n\n\n↑","O\n\n\n\nEnd","P\n\n\n\nBackSpc","{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#999999",w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Ctrl",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S\n\n\n\nMsLt","D\n\n\n\nMsDn","F\n\n\n\nMsRt","G","H\n\n\n\nPgUp","J\n\n\n\n←","K\n\n\n\n↓","L\n\n\n\n→",":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#999999",w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift",{c:"#cccccc"},"Z","X","C","V","B","N\n\n\n\nPgDn","M\n\n\n\nDel","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#999999",w:1.75},"RShift",{c:"#6897ca"},"↑"],
["Esc",{c:"#999999",w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt","Del",{w:2},"Backspace",{c:"#6897ca",h:1.5},"Fn",{c:"#999999",w:2},"Space",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"RCtrl",{c:"#6897ca"},"←","→","↓"]
And here are the settings:
[attachimg=1]
And here is the result:
[attachimg=2]
So here is what I did. In order to cut down the padding on the bottom, I added 1/2 a key of 'y' space at the top and then did negative 1/2 a key of vertical padding. So if you had zero perceived padding around the keyboard, it would be 19.05/2 = 9.525 (but negative). Since you want 6mm of padding around the board, we add 6 to that to give you -3.525 as the vertical padding value.
Does this make any sense?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 27 October 2015, 02:00:21
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:26:12
Hi swill! I have a question. I measured the Alps cutouts from the plate builder as beeing 15.6x12.8. AFAIK, the official datasheet gives 15.5x12.8. Waht's about that extra 0.1, has it a certain reason?That is what jdcarpe has suggested to use and he has a lot more experience with alps plates than I do. :)
0.1 MM is basically nothing though.
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:38:54
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:41:58
No problem, I'm just curious. I will chat abit with jdcarpe. Thanks swill!No problem. For the record the first tests with that size was bordering on too small, so I would not make it smaller.
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 14:28:05
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 27 October 2015, 16:35:34
Wow, this is crazy. In the last 3-4 months there have been 5,500 unique layout configurations drawn with this tool. That kinda blows my mind...
Very nice.
Glad to see this is helping people.
Edit: Quick question swill. If I use a standard TKL layout from KLE, will the resulting plate fit a Phantom PCB? Or does the offset from the alpha block to the navigation/arrows end up off a little bit? I guess what I am asking is, is the offset a standard fraction of a unit size?
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 19:56:47
The KLE layout is wrong. I would have to do some math to figure out what fraction of a key it needs to be. If you can measure from a pin on one switch across the gap to the same pin on another switch, I can give you a KLE setup which will work.Wow, this is crazy. In the last 3-4 months there have been 5,500 unique layout configurations drawn with this tool. That kinda blows my mind...
Very nice.
Glad to see this is helping people.
Edit: Quick question swill. If I use a standard TKL layout from KLE, will the resulting plate fit a Phantom PCB? Or does the offset from the alpha block to the navigation/arrows end up off a little bit? I guess what I am asking is, is the offset a standard fraction of a unit size?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:15:46
The KLE layout is wrong. I would have to do some math to figure out what fraction of a key it needs to be. If you can measure from a pin on one switch across the gap to the same pin on another switch, I can give you a KLE setup which will work.Wow, this is crazy. In the last 3-4 months there have been 5,500 unique layout configurations drawn with this tool. That kinda blows my mind...
Very nice.
Glad to see this is helping people.
Edit: Quick question swill. If I use a standard TKL layout from KLE, will the resulting plate fit a Phantom PCB? Or does the offset from the alpha block to the navigation/arrows end up off a little bit? I guess what I am asking is, is the offset a standard fraction of a unit size?
Thats fine thanks for the offer though. I was just trying to avoid pulling out the calipers. I don't have a Phantom PCB though. I do have a couple others that are standard full size I could measure off of. One is a costar built Das, and the other is a Rosewill. I would assume they would be correct dimensions to match up to a Phantom as far as plate measurements between switches goes.
Post by: xlr82xs on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:17:06
I know it has been a long time in coming (and its not in the production tool yet), but the rotated clusters is well on its way. Here is a little teaser...
(Attachment Link)
I still have to work out the details of the plate dimensions based on the rotated keys, so that will be the next step. This is a big step in the right direction though... :)
I'm looking at doing a very similar design, however, when I use the following code :
Code: [Select]
[{f:1,f2:2},"\nEsc","\nF1","\nF2","\nF3","\nF4","\nF5","\nF6","\nF7","\nF8","Repeat Rate\nF9","Disable Macro\nF10","Macro\nF11","Remap\nF12","PrintScr SysReq","Scroll<br>lock","Pause Break","Keypad","Progrm"],
[{y:0.5,x:3.25,f:3},"#\n3",{x:9.5},"*\n8\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"@\n2",{x:1},"$\n4",{x:7.5},"&\n7\n\n\nNm Lk",{x:1},"(\n9\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"!\n1",{x:3},"%\n5",{x:5.5},"^\n6",{x:3},")\n0\n\n\n*"],
[{y:-0.75,w:1.25},"+\n=",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"_\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"E",{x:9.5},"I\n\n\n\n8"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"W",{x:1},"R",{x:7.5},"U\n\n\n\n7",{x:1},"O\n\n\n\n9"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"Q",{x:3},"T",{x:5.5},"Y",{x:3},"P\n\n\n\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,f:3,w:1.25},"Tab",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"|\n\\"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"D",{x:9.5},"K\n\n\n\n5"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"S",{x:1},"F",{x:7.5},"J\n\n\n\n4",{x:1},"L\n\n\n\n6"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"A",{x:3},"G",{x:5.5},"H",{x:3,f:3},":\n;\n\n\n+"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Caps<br>Lock",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"\"\n'"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"C",{x:9.5,f:3},"<\n,\n\n\n2"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,f:6},"X",{x:1},"V",{x:7.5},"M\n\n\n\n1",{x:1,f:3},">\n.\n\n\n3"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25,f:6},"Z",{x:3},"B",{x:5.5},"N",{x:3,f:3},"?\n/\n\n\nEnter"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Shift",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"Shift"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,a:5,f:5},"⇦\n\n\n\n⇦",{x:9.5},"⇩\n\n\n\n⇩"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,a:4,f:3},"|\n\\\n\n\nInsert",{x:1,a:5,f:5},"⇨\n\n\n\n⇨",{x:7.5},"⇧\n\n\n\n⇧",{x:1,a:4,f:3},"{\n[\n\n\n."],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"~\n`",{x:13.5},"}\n]\n\n\nEnter"],
[{r:15,rx:5.25,ry:4,y:1,x:1.75},"Ctrl","Alt"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,h:2},"Back<br>Space",{h:2},"Delete","Home"],
[{x:2.75},"End"],
[{r:-15,rx:12.75,y:1,x:-3.75,a:4},"Cmd\n\n\n\n\n\nWin",{a:7},"Ctrl"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Up",{a:7,h:2},"Enter",{h:2},"Space"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Down"]
It generates a plate layout like :
(https://i.imgur.com/CU8LoQW.png)
for the layout :
(https://i.imgur.com/p50w6lK.png)
obviously I'm doing something wrong with the tilts on the lower left cluster (it alternates between not including the stabilizers on either of the two larger keys) but for the life of me, I can't figure out what.
Do you have any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong ?
I'm considering just editing the output to duplicate the key+stabilizer but since cutting is so horrifically expensive here in the AU, I don't want to have too many test cuts.
--- Edit ---
I just read the last couple of pages of the thread between where you posted your new design and now.
I can see that this is an existing issue.
However, I did notice another thing, if I specify 6 holes for the mounts on the sandwich layout, it wants to put one of the bolt holes in the middle of the cutout for the usb cable on the second layer. Since i'll probably just be using the top and bottom plates with spacers, this isn't a huge issue for me, but it's probably something to keep in mind. Somehow I was expecting the three holes to be on the left and right sides of the keyboard not along the top to avoid this problem.
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:42:23
The stabilizer thing is a bug. Nothing you are doing is wrong. I am working in a fix, but it is nontrivial, so this probably won't be fixed for a week or two.I know it has been a long time in coming (and its not in the production tool yet), but the rotated clusters is well on its way. Here is a little teaser...
(Attachment Link)
I still have to work out the details of the plate dimensions based on the rotated keys, so that will be the next step. This is a big step in the right direction though... :)
I'm looking at doing a very similar design, however, when I use the following code :Code: [Select][{f:1,f2:2},"\nEsc","\nF1","\nF2","\nF3","\nF4","\nF5","\nF6","\nF7","\nF8","Repeat Rate\nF9","Disable Macro\nF10","Macro\nF11","Remap\nF12","PrintScr SysReq","Scroll<br>lock","Pause Break","Keypad","Progrm"],
[{y:0.5,x:3.25,f:3},"#\n3",{x:9.5},"*\n8\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"@\n2",{x:1},"$\n4",{x:7.5},"&\n7\n\n\nNm Lk",{x:1},"(\n9\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"!\n1",{x:3},"%\n5",{x:5.5},"^\n6",{x:3},")\n0\n\n\n*"],
[{y:-0.75,w:1.25},"+\n=",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"_\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"E",{x:9.5},"I\n\n\n\n8"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"W",{x:1},"R",{x:7.5},"U\n\n\n\n7",{x:1},"O\n\n\n\n9"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"Q",{x:3},"T",{x:5.5},"Y",{x:3},"P\n\n\n\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,f:3,w:1.25},"Tab",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"|\n\\"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"D",{x:9.5},"K\n\n\n\n5"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"S",{x:1},"F",{x:7.5},"J\n\n\n\n4",{x:1},"L\n\n\n\n6"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"A",{x:3},"G",{x:5.5},"H",{x:3,f:3},":\n;\n\n\n+"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Caps<br>Lock",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"\"\n'"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"C",{x:9.5,f:3},"<\n,\n\n\n2"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,f:6},"X",{x:1},"V",{x:7.5},"M\n\n\n\n1",{x:1,f:3},">\n.\n\n\n3"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25,f:6},"Z",{x:3},"B",{x:5.5},"N",{x:3,f:3},"?\n/\n\n\nEnter"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Shift",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"Shift"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,a:5,f:5},"⇦\n\n\n\n⇦",{x:9.5},"⇩\n\n\n\n⇩"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,a:4,f:3},"|\n\\\n\n\nInsert",{x:1,a:5,f:5},"⇨\n\n\n\n⇨",{x:7.5},"⇧\n\n\n\n⇧",{x:1,a:4,f:3},"{\n[\n\n\n."],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"~\n`",{x:13.5},"}\n]\n\n\nEnter"],
[{r:15,rx:5.25,ry:4,y:1,x:1.75},"Ctrl","Alt"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,h:2},"Back<br>Space",{h:2},"Delete","Home"],
[{x:2.75},"End"],
[{r:-15,rx:12.75,y:1,x:-3.75,a:4},"Cmd\n\n\n\n\n\nWin",{a:7},"Ctrl"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Up",{a:7,h:2},"Enter",{h:2},"Space"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Down"]
It generates a plate layout like :Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/CU8LoQW.png)
for the layout :Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/p50w6lK.png)
obviously I'm doing something wrong with the tilts on the lower left cluster (it alternates between not including the stabilizers on either of the two larger keys) but for the life of me, I can't figure out what.
Do you have any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong ?
I'm considering just editing the output to duplicate the key+stabilizer but since cutting is so horrifically expensive here in the AU, I don't want to have too many test cuts.
--- Edit ---
I just read the last couple of pages of the thread between where you posted your new design and now.
I can see that this is an existing issue.
However, I did notice another thing, if I specify 6 holes for the mounts on the sandwich layout, it wants to put one of the bolt holes in the middle of the cutout for the usb cable on the second layer. Since i'll probably just be using the top and bottom plates with spacers, this isn't a huge issue for me, but it's probably something to keep in mind. Somehow I was expecting the three holes to be on the left and right sides of the keyboard not along the top to avoid this problem.
You can slightly modify the padding size OR change the switch cutout specifically for a switch which is having a stabilizer issue and it sometimes fixes the stab draw issue. You can use decimals for padding, like 6.01, for example.
As for the screw hole and the USB cutout. I am spinning that as a feature since it can easily be avoided by changing the hole number. If you want to have a screw holding your USB socket in place, this is a useful little tidbit. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:47:33
Ya they should be. Thinking if which, I have a qfr TKL that is in pieces tight now, I can try to find some time to measure it.The KLE layout is wrong. I would have to do some math to figure out what fraction of a key it needs to be. If you can measure from a pin on one switch across the gap to the same pin on another switch, I can give you a KLE setup which will work.Wow, this is crazy. In the last 3-4 months there have been 5,500 unique layout configurations drawn with this tool. That kinda blows my mind...
Very nice.
Glad to see this is helping people.
Edit: Quick question swill. If I use a standard TKL layout from KLE, will the resulting plate fit a Phantom PCB? Or does the offset from the alpha block to the navigation/arrows end up off a little bit? I guess what I am asking is, is the offset a standard fraction of a unit size?
Thats fine thanks for the offer though. I was just trying to avoid pulling out the calipers. I don't have a Phantom PCB though. I do have a couple others that are standard full size I could measure off of. One is a costar built Das, and the other is a Rosewill. I would assume they would be correct dimensions to match up to a Phantom as far as plate measurements between switches goes.
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 28 October 2015, 00:07:18
Ok, here is how you can do it. You can't use the sandwich case because it won't know what to do with the holes, so you will have to add the holes to the cad after.
Here is the code:Code: [Select][{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1\n\n\nF1","@\n2\n\n\nF2","#\n3\n\n\nF3","$\n4\n\n\nF4","%\n5\n\n\nF5","^\n6\n\n\nF6","&\n7\n\n\nF7","*\n8\n\n\nF8","(\n9\n\n\nF9",")\n0\n\n\nF10","_\n-\n\n\nF11","+\n=\n\n\nF12",{c:"#999999"},"Home\n\n\n\nPgUp","End\n\n\n\nPgDn"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab",{c:"#cccccc"},"Q","W\n\n\n\nClick1","E\n\n\n\nMsUp","R\n\n\n\nClick2","T","Y\n\n\n\nIns","U\n\n\n\nHome","I\n\n\n\n↑","O\n\n\n\nEnd","P\n\n\n\nBackSpc","{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#999999",w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Ctrl",{c:"#cccccc"},"A","S\n\n\n\nMsLt","D\n\n\n\nMsDn","F\n\n\n\nMsRt","G","H\n\n\n\nPgUp","J\n\n\n\n←","K\n\n\n\n↓","L\n\n\n\n→",":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#999999",w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift",{c:"#cccccc"},"Z","X","C","V","B","N\n\n\n\nPgDn","M\n\n\n\nDel","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#999999",w:1.75},"RShift",{c:"#6897ca"},"↑"],
["Esc",{c:"#999999",w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt","Del",{w:2},"Backspace",{c:"#6897ca",h:1.5},"Fn",{c:"#999999",w:2},"Space",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"RCtrl",{c:"#6897ca"},"←","→","↓"]
And here are the settings:
(Attachment Link)
And here is the result:
(Attachment Link)
So here is what I did. In order to cut down the padding on the bottom, I added 1/2 a key of 'y' space at the top and then did negative 1/2 a key of vertical padding. So if you had zero perceived padding around the keyboard, it would be 19.05/2 = 9.525 (but negative). Since you want 6mm of padding around the board, we add 6 to that to give you -3.525 as the vertical padding value.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks a lot for taking the time to address this for me. And thanks for making the plate building tool. I'm going to have to learn how to use LibreCAD more effectively in order to modify the plates to suit my preferences but your tool removes so many barriers to designing a plate that it makes the task manageable for self-starters.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 30 October 2015, 10:17:02
If you haven't tried using CAD, it's worth a shot if you need a simple modification. MOSTLY the editing controls are simple: drag and drop to move things around, press "Delete" to delete stuff after it's selected, etc.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 30 October 2015, 12:36:37
Do you guys have the ability to cut these switch holes into 3/4" wide aluminum U shaped channel?
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 30 October 2015, 12:43:09
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 30 October 2015, 13:29:04
Probably not practical.
The plan for that project is each row is a separate plate to allow a pseudo curved plate so I can get a sculpted key profile with uniform profile caps similar to how IBM did it with their buckling springs boards. The reason for doing this in that u shaped channel is the legs will provide the needed support as they will be attached on the ends only.
Obviously this will not support traditional pcbs that cover the full keyboard matrix.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 30 October 2015, 13:54:44
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/new-construction-technique-for-waterjet-or-laser-cut-parts.html
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 30 October 2015, 14:11:14
Have risers come up from the base as in Tensioned Plate construction:
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/new-construction-technique-for-waterjet-or-laser-cut-parts.html
The issue here is that would require multiple extra pieces. Plus my design allows for different plate configurations. The pseudo curve, flat for traditional pcb setup, or stepped where the plates are parallel but offset. Plus it would actually complicate the build. Would need a separate middle support for each row, for each configuration.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59450.msg1482547#msg1482547
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Fri, 30 October 2015, 14:34:19
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 30 October 2015, 14:41:20
I don't understand, why do you need "different plate configurations"? Is it intended to be dynamically adjustable?
Yes
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 November 2015, 09:16:40
I know it has been a long time in coming (and its not in the production tool yet), but the rotated clusters is well on its way. Here is a little teaser...
(Attachment Link)
I still have to work out the details of the plate dimensions based on the rotated keys, so that will be the next step. This is a big step in the right direction though... :)
I'm looking at doing a very similar design, however, when I use the following code :Code: [Select][{f:1,f2:2},"\nEsc","\nF1","\nF2","\nF3","\nF4","\nF5","\nF6","\nF7","\nF8","Repeat Rate\nF9","Disable Macro\nF10","Macro\nF11","Remap\nF12","PrintScr SysReq","Scroll<br>lock","Pause Break","Keypad","Progrm"],
[{y:0.5,x:3.25,f:3},"#\n3",{x:9.5},"*\n8\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"@\n2",{x:1},"$\n4",{x:7.5},"&\n7\n\n\nNm Lk",{x:1},"(\n9\n\n\n="],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"!\n1",{x:3},"%\n5",{x:5.5},"^\n6",{x:3},")\n0\n\n\n*"],
[{y:-0.75,w:1.25},"+\n=",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"_\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"E",{x:9.5},"I\n\n\n\n8"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"W",{x:1},"R",{x:7.5},"U\n\n\n\n7",{x:1},"O\n\n\n\n9"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"Q",{x:3},"T",{x:5.5},"Y",{x:3},"P\n\n\n\n-"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,f:3,w:1.25},"Tab",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"|\n\\"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"D",{x:9.5},"K\n\n\n\n5"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25},"S",{x:1},"F",{x:7.5},"J\n\n\n\n4",{x:1},"L\n\n\n\n6"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"A",{x:3},"G",{x:5.5},"H",{x:3,f:3},":\n;\n\n\n+"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Caps<br>Lock",{x:15.5,a:4,w:1.25},"\"\n'"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,f:6},"C",{x:9.5,f:3},"<\n,\n\n\n2"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,f:6},"X",{x:1},"V",{x:7.5},"M\n\n\n\n1",{x:1,f:3},">\n.\n\n\n3"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25,f:6},"Z",{x:3},"B",{x:5.5},"N",{x:3,f:3},"?\n/\n\n\nEnter"],
[{y:-0.75,a:6,w:1.25},"Shift",{x:15.5,w:1.25},"Shift"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.25,a:5,f:5},"⇦\n\n\n\n⇦",{x:9.5},"⇩\n\n\n\n⇩"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2.25,a:4,f:3},"|\n\\\n\n\nInsert",{x:1,a:5,f:5},"⇨\n\n\n\n⇨",{x:7.5},"⇧\n\n\n\n⇧",{x:1,a:4,f:3},"{\n[\n\n\n."],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.25},"~\n`",{x:13.5},"}\n]\n\n\nEnter"],
[{r:15,rx:5.25,ry:4,y:1,x:1.75},"Ctrl","Alt"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,h:2},"Back<br>Space",{h:2},"Delete","Home"],
[{x:2.75},"End"],
[{r:-15,rx:12.75,y:1,x:-3.75,a:4},"Cmd\n\n\n\n\n\nWin",{a:7},"Ctrl"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Up",{a:7,h:2},"Enter",{h:2},"Space"],
[{x:-3.75,a:6},"Page<br>Down"]
It generates a plate layout like :Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/CU8LoQW.png)
for the layout :Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/p50w6lK.png)
obviously I'm doing something wrong with the tilts on the lower left cluster (it alternates between not including the stabilizers on either of the two larger keys) but for the life of me, I can't figure out what.
Do you have any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong ?
I'm considering just editing the output to duplicate the key+stabilizer but since cutting is so horrifically expensive here in the AU, I don't want to have too many test cuts.
--- Edit ---
I just read the last couple of pages of the thread between where you posted your new design and now.
I can see that this is an existing issue.
However, I did notice another thing, if I specify 6 holes for the mounts on the sandwich layout, it wants to put one of the bolt holes in the middle of the cutout for the usb cable on the second layer. Since i'll probably just be using the top and bottom plates with spacers, this isn't a huge issue for me, but it's probably something to keep in mind. Somehow I was expecting the three holes to be on the left and right sides of the keyboard not along the top to avoid this problem.
This should be fixed now. Can you test and make sure everything is working as expected now?
Post by: swill on Tue, 03 November 2015, 09:19:31
I know a lot of people have been having problems recently with the stabilizers not drawing in some cases (especially with ergodox and rotated cluster layouts). I think I have found the underlying bug in the library that I am using. I have modified my drawing approach to try to bypass the bug in the lib, so please test to make sure that the problem is resolved.
Post by: swill on Wed, 04 November 2015, 09:27:46
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Mon, 28 December 2015, 16:08:53
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/pemdas-s-custom-keyboard-with-waterjet-cut-plate.html
Post by: xondat on Mon, 28 December 2015, 16:22:17
Post by: xondat on Wed, 06 January 2016, 15:27:48
Post by: swill on Wed, 06 January 2016, 19:46:40
What thickness is each layer generally?I have done a write up with measurements for this. I will have to find the post for you when I get to my computer.
The switch plate is almost always 1.5mm thick because that is required for the switches to clip in. Often people make the bottom plate the same thickness so it looks uniform.
The middle layers are more variable and that is up for interpretation. You have to fit the bottom of the switches, the wiring and the controller in that space, so it takes a little math.
I will try to find you my post later tonight which has more details.
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 07 January 2016, 09:57:51
Middle layers are typically 3 mm or 1/8". We have also done acrylic middle layers from 12 mm acrylic.
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 January 2016, 10:30:37
What thickness is each layer generally?
Here is the post I was referring to earlier. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1730476;topicseen#msg1730476
The short version...
Quote
I used 4 layers of 0.15" (3.81mm) [for the middle layers]. This gives me a total middle thickness of 0.6" (15.24mm)
Quote
So by my calculations, you need at least 14mm of middle layer to make everything fit inside...
Post by: xondat on Thu, 07 January 2016, 10:56:37
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 January 2016, 11:12:14
Alright great, thanks for the info. So the two middle pieces need to total 14mm or more? There is a gap for the USB cable in one layer, has anyone ever covered the specific heights for those?
That all depends on how you plan to handle the controller inside the case and how you plan to handle the actual port. May plan is to actually use a small USB extender cable inside my case so I can glue the cable to the case and make that connection very strong, and not have my actual controller attached to the case (to make opening the case and such easier).
I have a few of these types of cables, but I will probably use this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-Female-to-Mini-Male-right-angle-Extender-Adapter-Data-Cable-cord-25cm-/141627254008?nma=true&si=pT8i5TphpfsIxHnO0RlX1MxZCrI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557).
Make sure you read the link I posted earlier so you can calculate the space needed. You will want to plug cable into your teensy to know what the actual height will be of that total. The plastic of the cable will add to the total height of the controller inside the case. Because of this I would probably recommend you try to make sure you have 15 - 16mm of space in your case unless you have calculated everything yourself.
Does this all make sense?
Post by: xondat on Thu, 07 January 2016, 12:15:04
Alright great, thanks for the info. So the two middle pieces need to total 14mm or more? There is a gap for the USB cable in one layer, has anyone ever covered the specific heights for those?
That all depends on how you plan to handle the controller inside the case and how you plan to handle the actual port. May plan is to actually use a small USB extender cable inside my case so I can glue the cable to the case and make that connection very strong, and not have my actual controller attached to the case (to make opening the case and such easier).
I have a few of these types of cables, but I will probably use this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-Female-to-Mini-Male-right-angle-Extender-Adapter-Data-Cable-cord-25cm-/141627254008?nma=true&si=pT8i5TphpfsIxHnO0RlX1MxZCrI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557).
Make sure you read the link I posted earlier so you can calculate the space needed. You will want to plug cable into your teensy to know what the actual height will be of that total. The plastic of the cable will add to the total height of the controller inside the case. Because of this I would probably recommend you try to make sure you have 15 - 16mm of space in your case unless you have calculated everything yourself.
Does this all make sense?
I'll be using a PCB so I know where; I think for cost saving at this point I'll just get the top and the bottom pieces for now, and maybe visit the middle layers later with the information that you provided :thumb: cheers
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 January 2016, 12:22:00
If you do get middle layers, only get closed layers and cut the USB cutout yourself because I am positive the default cutout will be in the wrong place for your pcb.Alright great, thanks for the info. So the two middle pieces need to total 14mm or more? There is a gap for the USB cable in one layer, has anyone ever covered the specific heights for those?
That all depends on how you plan to handle the controller inside the case and how you plan to handle the actual port. May plan is to actually use a small USB extender cable inside my case so I can glue the cable to the case and make that connection very strong, and not have my actual controller attached to the case (to make opening the case and such easier).
I have a few of these types of cables, but I will probably use this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-Female-to-Mini-Male-right-angle-Extender-Adapter-Data-Cable-cord-25cm-/141627254008?nma=true&si=pT8i5TphpfsIxHnO0RlX1MxZCrI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557).
Make sure you read the link I posted earlier so you can calculate the space needed. You will want to plug cable into your teensy to know what the actual height will be of that total. The plastic of the cable will add to the total height of the controller inside the case. Because of this I would probably recommend you try to make sure you have 15 - 16mm of space in your case unless you have calculated everything yourself.
Does this all make sense?
I'll be using a PCB so I know where; I think for cost saving at this point I'll just get the top and the bottom pieces for now, and maybe visit the middle layers later with the information that you provided :thumb: cheers
Post by: byker on Thu, 14 January 2016, 01:57:00
When I input this:
Code: [Select]
[{y:1.5},"Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","~\n`"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{a:6,w:1.5},"Backspace"],
[{a:4,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{a:6,w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{a:4,w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{a:6,w:1.75},"FN"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Win",{a:6},"←",{fa:[1]},"↓",{f:3},"→"]It ends up with this extra space on top for some reason, when I select cherry stabs and poker case and square switch mounts:
(http://puu.sh/mv9Mr/ed024499b5.png)
I read through the last few pages, but I can't figure out why, any ideas? :)
Post by: xondat on Thu, 14 January 2016, 02:37:48
Hey swill,
When I input this:Code: [Select][{y:1.5},"Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","~\n`"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{a:6,w:1.5},"Backspace"],
[{a:4,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{a:6,w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{a:4,w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{a:6,w:1.75},"FN"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Win",{a:6},"←",{fa:[1]},"↓",{f:3},"→"]
It ends up with this extra space on top for some reason, when I select cherry stabs and poker case and square switch mounts:Show Image(http://puu.sh/mv9Mr/ed024499b5.png)
I read through the last few pages, but I can't figure out why, any ideas? :)
Code: [Select]
["Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","~\n`"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{a:6,w:1.5},"Backspace"],
[{a:4,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{a:6,w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{a:4,w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{a:6,w:1.75},"FN"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Win",{a:6},"←",{fa:[1]},"↓",{f:3},"→"]Removed the y code at the front.
Post by: byker on Thu, 14 January 2016, 03:11:22
Hey swill,
When I input this:Code: [Select][{y:1.5},"Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","~\n`"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{a:6,w:1.5},"Backspace"],
[{a:4,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{a:6,w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{a:4,w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{a:6,w:1.75},"FN"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Win",{a:6},"←",{fa:[1]},"↓",{f:3},"→"]
It ends up with this extra space on top for some reason, when I select cherry stabs and poker case and square switch mounts:Show Image(http://puu.sh/mv9Mr/ed024499b5.png)
I read through the last few pages, but I can't figure out why, any ideas? :)Code: [Select]["Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","~\n`"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{a:6,w:1.5},"Backspace"],
[{a:4,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{a:6,w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{a:4,w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/","↑",{a:6,w:1.75},"FN"],
[{x:0.75,a:7,w:1.5},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Win",{a:6},"←",{fa:[1]},"↓",{f:3},"→"]
Removed the y code at the front.
Many thanks :)
Post by: waffle418 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 12:50:46
Post by: redbanshee on Thu, 14 January 2016, 12:54:19
Ok, so I stumbled on to this thread from the builder. I love how easy it is to use and have designed myself an 84% keyboard. When I go to get pricing for the plates from Big Blue Saw, its asking me for dimensions, so I opened up the file and realized I couldn't get a measurement on the drawing. Am I going crazy or just terrible at CAD (I'm definitely terrible at CAD, but I didn't think I was THAT bad.)? Any help would be muchappreciated and Swill I have to tell you how much I love your product. I've gone through 2 or 3 redesigns of my "perfect" keyboard and had the CAD files made. I'm so excited to get the pieces in place to build my own!!
What CAD program are you using? Try and label the lines or "DI" in the command line of most cad programs will run the "distance" command.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 13:10:41
Ok, so I stumbled on to this thread from the builder. I love how easy it is to use and have designed myself an 84% keyboard. When I go to get pricing for the plates from Big Blue Saw, its asking me for dimensions, so I opened up the file and realized I couldn't get a measurement on the drawing. Am I going crazy or just terrible at CAD (I'm definitely terrible at CAD, but I didn't think I was THAT bad.)? Any help would be muchappreciated and Swill I have to tell you how much I love your product. I've gone through 2 or 3 redesigns of my "perfect" keyboard and had the CAD files made. I'm so excited to get the pieces in place to build my own!!
All the dimensions in the CAD file are in millimeters (mm), but the units are not included in the actual exported file because the file format version I have access to does not support the the units of measure (UOM).
If you are using BBS, you should be able to upload your file and then click the 'Resize to ###.## X ##.## millimeters' button and it will update everything for you.
If you want to manually save the file to include the UOM, do the following.
- Open the file in LibreCAD
- Do: Edit > Current Drawing Preferences > Units > Main drawing unit = Millimeter > OK
- Do: File > Save
Now you can upload your file and you won't have to modify the UOM in the BBS UI.
Let me know if anything was not clear in this explanation. :)
Glad you are enjoying the tool. :P
Post by: waffle418 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 13:56:53
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:03:05
Ok, so I just need to grab LibreCAD or something more robust than CADFree to add the dimensions (I don't know what the actual size WILL be is where I'm getting tripped up.). I'm trying to figure out what size the keyboard will be so I can plan and give to BBS to get an appropriate pricing.
Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
Post by: waffle418 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:19:35
Ok, so I just need to grab LibreCAD or something more robust than CADFree to add the dimensions (I don't know what the actual size WILL be is where I'm getting tripped up.). I'm trying to figure out what size the keyboard will be so I can plan and give to BBS to get an appropriate pricing.
Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
Sure - I got the layout from kle and then put it into your site. From there, I download the svgs for each plate and upload them to BBS.
I see this after upload:
(http://i.imgur.com/vvGmWWY.png)
And that's where I'm stumped. Its asking for overall size and I don't know that because I don't know the size from the drawings.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:22:48
Ok, so I just need to grab LibreCAD or something more robust than CADFree to add the dimensions (I don't know what the actual size WILL be is where I'm getting tripped up.). I'm trying to figure out what size the keyboard will be so I can plan and give to BBS to get an appropriate pricing.
Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
Sure - I got the layout from kle and then put it into your site. From there, I download the svgs for each plate and upload them to BBS.
I see this after upload:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/vvGmWWY.png)
And that's where I'm stumped. Its asking for overall size and I don't know that because I don't know the size from the drawings.
Oh, I see the problem now. Download the DXF version of the file and upload it to BBS. Sorry I didn't think of that earlier. :)
Post by: waffle418 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:28:13
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:29:26
Post by: waffle418 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 15:28:39
Yes, automated quotes are currently for file types DXF, DWG, PNG, GIF and Big Blue Saw Designer JPX only.
If I read better, I would have seen that on your site :( thats on me!
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 15:30:09
Yes, automated quotes are currently for file types DXF, DWG, PNG, GIF and Big Blue Saw Designer JPX only.
If I read better, I would have seen that on your site :( thats on me!
Haha. :) No worries, I do that **** all the time. RTFM!!! :P
Edit: Speaking of which. Everyone should have a look at the different help ? screens in the builder. There are a lot of hidden features in there. Especially the Plate Layout item.
Post by: Charger on Thu, 14 January 2016, 17:54:01
Haha. :) No worries, I do that **** all the time. RTFM!!! :Pspeaking of hidden features i seem to recall there was a way to get alps only cutouts but not sure if I'm just remembering incorrectly or not.
Edit: Speaking of which. Everyone should have a look at the different help ? screens in the builder. There are a lot of hidden features in there. Especially the Plate Layout item.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 18:42:04
Yes. Using the x_grow and y_grow options in the global layout configuration. I am not sure if it is officially documented. I will check later tonight.Haha. :) No worries, I do that **** all the time. RTFM!!!speaking of hidden features i seem to recall there was a way to get alps only cutouts but not sure if I'm just remembering incorrectly or not.
Edit: Speaking of which. Everyone should have a look at the different help ? screens in the builder. There are a lot of hidden features in there. Especially the Plate Layout item.
I may also just add the alps only cutout natively in the tool later tonight. I just need to do it. It has been on my list for months.
Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
Post by: Charger on Thu, 14 January 2016, 19:44:42
I look forward to an alps option. Sadly I cant help with the stabilizer setup I have been questioning that myself recently since I just ordered alps keycaps from massdrop but I don't even have an alps keyboard so I will need to figure that out and make one lolYes. Using the x_grow and y_grow options in the global layout configuration. I am not sure if it is officially documented. I will check later tonight.Haha. :) No worries, I do that **** all the time. RTFM!!!speaking of hidden features i seem to recall there was a way to get alps only cutouts but not sure if I'm just remembering incorrectly or not.
Edit: Speaking of which. Everyone should have a look at the different help ? screens in the builder. There are a lot of hidden features in there. Especially the Plate Layout item.
I may also just add the alps only cutout natively in the tool later tonight. I just need to do it. It has been on my list for months.
Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
Post by: skullydazed on Thu, 14 January 2016, 22:33:39
Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
It depends on which style you follow, the old "alps" style or the new "matias" style. For the matias style it's alps stabs for 2.25/2.75 and costar stabs for the spacebar. Every modern alps board I know of uses the matias style, and I would argue strongly that that should be the default.
I have 87mm from inside edge to inside edge of the 6.5U spacebar stab on an AEKII. That should mean 89mm center to center. I don't know if that is consistent with other vintage alps boards, this is the only one I have on hand to measure.
Post by: Charger on Thu, 14 January 2016, 23:01:16
random question but do you think a costar stabilizers would work in place of the alps ones maybe with a custom bent wire?Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
It depends on which style you follow, the old "alps" style or the new "matias" style. For the matias style it's alps stabs for 2.25/2.75 and costar stabs for the spacebar. Every modern alps board I know of uses the matias style, and I would argue strongly that that should be the default.
I have 87mm from inside edge to inside edge of the 6.5U spacebar stab on an AEKII. That should mean 89mm center to center. I don't know if that is consistent with other vintage alps boards, this is the only one I have on hand to measure.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 23:08:05
random question but do you think a costar stabilizers would work in place of the alps ones maybe with a custom bent wire?Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
It depends on which style you follow, the old "alps" style or the new "matias" style. For the matias style it's alps stabs for 2.25/2.75 and costar stabs for the spacebar. Every modern alps board I know of uses the matias style, and I would argue strongly that that should be the default.
I have 87mm from inside edge to inside edge of the 6.5U spacebar stab on an AEKII. That should mean 89mm center to center. I don't know if that is consistent with other vintage alps boards, this is the only one I have on hand to measure.
No, I don't think so, the alps cutouts are much smaller. I will work on this on the train tomorrow morning.
Post by: swill on Thu, 14 January 2016, 23:08:34
Anyone know what the alps space bar stabilizer details are?
It depends on which style you follow, the old "alps" style or the new "matias" style. For the matias style it's alps stabs for 2.25/2.75 and costar stabs for the spacebar. Every modern alps board I know of uses the matias style, and I would argue strongly that that should be the default.
I have 87mm from inside edge to inside edge of the 6.5U spacebar stab on an AEKII. That should mean 89mm center to center. I don't know if that is consistent with other vintage alps boards, this is the only one I have on hand to measure.
Thank you. With the other info I have, I should be able to get most of the basic situations taken care of.
Post by: Charger on Thu, 14 January 2016, 23:38:37
ya i know that but I dont want to buy an alps keyboard for parts lol so I was thinking of using a costar stab just to hold the wire which would probably need a custom wire to do that. I dont think that alps use the stab as a guide like costar seems to so even if I had to cut the costar stabs down to avoid interference i assume it should still work
No, I don't think so, the alps cutouts are much smaller. I will work on this on the train tomorrow morning.
Post by: swill on Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:53:53
I have the basics working for the Alps Only switch cutout as well as the Alps style stabilizer. Unfortunately, I do not have a complete list of Alps stabilizer measurements. Here are the ones I have:
The values below represent 1/2 of the distance from center to center of the Alps stabilizers in millimeters, centered around the X of the switch cutout.
Code: [Select]
switch size {
case 1.75: // 1.75u
s = 11.938
case 2.0: // 2.0u
s = 14.096
case 2.75: // 2.75u
s = 21.59
case 6.25: // 6.25u
s = 41.859
}
Credit: measurements generously provided by jdcarpeIf the key size is >=2 and is not in this list, it will instead draw a costar stabilizer (eg: 2.25u or 7u). If you have a key which fits one of those descriptions and you don't want any stabilizer drawn for it, you can now specify a {_s:0} flag to stop a stabilizer from being drawn at all.
What do you guys think? Am I missing anything major?
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 January 2016, 17:18:39
I would appreciate some feedback from people who are interested in Alps support to make sure the functionality described in my previous post passes the sanity test. Thx... :)
Post by: flabbergast on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:08:23
I've only got Alps plates from BlueNalgene's recent group buy and a CAD file (for a different Alps plate) from him. From the CAD file, it looks like the s for 2.75u is 24.09005mm and for 2.25u it's 14.0967mm. I will measure tomorrow on the actual plate. I would prefer if 2.25u case is also covered with Alps cutouts (left shift).
However your number for 2.75u is probably better vis-a-vis stabs from Matias - see this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75491.msg2002044#msg2002044) post. (I had no problem with his plate with a stab from AEKII.) These stabs are flexible, and the cutouts slightly closer is way better than slightly too far.
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:04:52
I am very thankful for adding the Alps support into your builder!
I've only got Alps plates from BlueNalgene's recent group buy and a CAD file (for a different Alps plate) from him. From the CAD file, it looks like the s for 2.75u is 24.09005mm and for 2.25u it's 14.0967mm. I will measure tomorrow on the actual plate. I would prefer if 2.25u case is also covered with Alps cutouts (left shift).
However your number for 2.75u is probably better vis-a-vis stabs from Matias - see this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75491.msg2002044#msg2002044) post. (I had no problem with his plate with a stab from AEKII.) These stabs are flexible, and the cutouts slightly closer is way better than slightly too far.
This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for. Yes, with alps, it is better to error on the smaller size. Judging from that link, I am pretty confident with the 2.75u measurement. I will add alps 2.25u support with the 2.0u measurement, which aligns with your cad example.
I will keep the fallback stabilizer as costar for unregistered key lengths (and registered in costar), to make sure there is a default stabilizer cutout for various space bar lengths. If you know the measurements for any other alps stabilizer cutouts, I can add support for them. What does the AEKII use?
Thanks again for the support. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:16:58
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 January 2016, 22:20:28
[attachimg=1]
If you find any issues or have suggestions for additional features, please let me know.
I have tried to make it more obvious how to use the key by key modification options. Hopefully people will checkout some of those features (Plate Layout Help). Especially if you want to use a poker case. You will probably have to flip some stabilizers {_rs:180}, if that is supported with alps stabilizers to get the stabilizer away from the plate edge.
Enjoy...
Post by: Zorberema on Wed, 20 January 2016, 03:12:29
Its alive... :)
(Attachment Link)
If you find any issues or have suggestions for additional features, please let me know.
I have tried to make it more obvious how to use the key by key modification options. Hopefully people will checkout some of those features (Plate Layout Help). Especially if you want to use a poker case. You will probably have to flip some stabilizers {_rs:180}, if that is supported with alps stabilizers to get the stabilizer away from the plate edge.
Enjoy...
Ey! I was just beginning the work on a custom alps board; this is awesome! :D Thanks Swill! :)
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 20 January 2016, 07:48:04
Post by: flabbergast on Wed, 20 January 2016, 10:08:33
So the actual measurement I got for 2.75u stab is 21.75mm - and that should be the one I've linked to before (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75491.msg2002044#msg2002044). So a bit shorter than that should be good.
The 2.25u and 2u keys have the same stab distances; also confirmed by looking at the keycaps from the bottom side.
One more I'd like to add is the stab for 6.5u spacebar (AEKII-size), that one is 45.3mm.
PS: Thanks again! Just last weekend I've done this one (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/638633/plate.png) manually. I'll compare with the result from your tool - and I'm sure discover a couple more problems with my manual plate ;)
Post by: swill on Wed, 20 January 2016, 17:26:36
So I've measured (only approximately unfortunately, got no equipment for precise) the cutouts on BlueNalgene's plate with AEKII layout (I've got not actual AEKII plate, sorry). So, it looks like the numbers you've got are good. Please disregard the one for 2.75u from the CAD file I wrote about earlier, it's way too big (I'm happy I've caught this now and not when the plate is cut).
So the actual measurement I got for 2.75u stab is 21.75mm - and that should be the one I've linked to before (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75491.msg2002044#msg2002044). So a bit shorter than that should be good.
The 2.25u and 2u keys have the same stab distances; also confirmed by looking at the keycaps from the bottom side.
One more I'd like to add is the stab for 6.5u spacebar (AEKII-size), that one is 45.3mm.
PS: Thanks again! Just last weekend I've done this one (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/638633/plate.png) manually. I'll compare with the result from your tool - and I'm sure discover a couple more problems with my manual plate ;)
Cool. Thanks again for the help.
I will add the 6.5u space bar cutout, thanks for the details.
So you think the 2.75u measurement is good? I suspect it is, given it is from JD and he is one of the pro plate designers in the community, but double checking is always good.
I have not gotten into the additional changes I am planning to make, so I will get the 6.5u stab added tonight.
Thanks everyone for the support. Don't be shy if you have suggestions.
Post by: swill on Wed, 20 January 2016, 17:31:23
Post by: swill on Fri, 22 January 2016, 07:55:28
So I've measured (only approximately unfortunately, got no equipment for precise) the cutouts on BlueNalgene's plate with AEKII layout (I've got not actual AEKII plate, sorry). So, it looks like the numbers you've got are good. Please disregard the one for 2.75u from the CAD file I wrote about earlier, it's way too big (I'm happy I've caught this now and not when the plate is cut).
So the actual measurement I got for 2.75u stab is 21.75mm - and that should be the one I've linked to before (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75491.msg2002044#msg2002044). So a bit shorter than that should be good.
The 2.25u and 2u keys have the same stab distances; also confirmed by looking at the keycaps from the bottom side.
One more I'd like to add is the stab for 6.5u spacebar (AEKII-size), that one is 45.3mm.
PS: Thanks again! Just last weekend I've done this one (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/638633/plate.png) manually. I'll compare with the result from your tool - and I'm sure discover a couple more problems with my manual plate ;)
Is the 6.5u length of 45.3mm a measured value or did you get that number from somewhere? If I adjust for the change in key length, based on my current cutout, I would put the stabilizer at 44.25mm (but that is just extrapolated). I ask mainly to make sure I am not missing a resource that has some of these dimensions available. I got a lot of my MX numbers from the DT Space Bar wiki, but I have not found a resource for alps at all.
Post by: flabbergast on Fri, 22 January 2016, 13:06:04
To answer your previous question about 2.75u: the 24mm number should be completely ignored (I had that from a CAD file from BlueNalgene, but that particular one had some other problematic numbers as well). What I measured on the plate from BlueNalgene (i.e. from the same batch as the photo on the forum I've linked to) is 21.75mm. So perhaps about 1.5mm less than that would be good?
Also - I have an old alps board on the way (Focus FK-2002 (http://i.imgur.com/0hubnf6.jpg)). When it arrives I'll measure the stabs on it and let you know...
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 22 January 2016, 13:28:42
I also noticed that you have a bit of padding for the alps holes. I tried padding values smaller than what you have and had the occasional issue with stabs not fitting securely enough. I have switched to exact measurements per the matias data sheet and my stabs hold perfectly every time now. Perhaps I'm not adjusting for kerf properly, but I've had the same result from two different machine shops too.
Post by: swill on Fri, 22 January 2016, 14:43:57
One thing about alps/matias stabilizers that I have recently learned is that Matias does vertical stabilizers the opposite way apple did on the AEKII. On the AEKII the vertical keys have the stabilizer holes to the left side. However, Matias and Tai Hao keycaps have stabilizer holes to the right side. This means picking a default and having some way to switch between the two. I would argue that the modern caps should be default, since those are what will most commonly be available.
I also noticed that you have a bit of padding for the alps holes. I tried padding values smaller than what you have and had the occasional issue with stabs not fitting securely enough. I have switched to exact measurements per the matias data sheet and my stabs hold perfectly every time now. Perhaps I'm not adjusting for kerf properly, but I've had the same result from two different machine shops too.
Can you send me the matias data sheet. I could not find one that described their stabilizers when I was looking.
You you can flip the stabilizer so it goes the other way by rotating it 180 degrees: {_rs:180}
Do you think I should default the stabilizers to flipped up?
What measurement exactly are you having problems with? I didn't really follow what you mean. Thanks for the feedback.
Post by: swill on Fri, 22 January 2016, 14:46:30
I just measured the 6.5u with a ruler on my plate, so the precision is going be about half a millimeter. I don't have any other resource for the measurements. I'm sorry this is probably not very helpful, but fortunately the way these stabilisers work there's a lot of leeway.
To answer your previous question about 2.75u: the 24mm number should be completely ignored (I had that from a CAD file from BlueNalgene, but that particular one had some other problematic numbers as well). What I measured on the plate from BlueNalgene (i.e. from the same batch as the photo on the forum I've linked to) is 21.75mm. So perhaps about 1.5mm less than that would be good?
Also - I have an old alps board on the way (Focus FK-2002 (http://i.imgur.com/0hubnf6.jpg)). When it arrives I'll measure the stabs on it and let you know...
OK, so I should probably make my 2.75u stabilizer even closer together than what I have right now to make sure that it works well with the matias stabilizers judging from the picture you sent. I will make that change. I will also go with my extrapolated number of 44.25mm instead of 45.3mm because it is better to error on the side of smaller and I doubt 1mm is going to cause any problems in this case.
Thanks again. :)
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 23 January 2016, 01:32:22
Can you send me the matias data sheet. I could not find one that described their stabilizers when I was looking.
Sorry, you're right that the stabs aren't in the datasheet. I dashed this off this morning in between some other things I had going on. Thinking back I'm going based on measurements I made of both a V60 and my AEKII, and I rounded to the nearest .1mm in most cases.
You you can flip the stabilizer so it goes the other way by rotating it 180 degrees: {_rs:180}
Do you think I should default the stabilizers to flipped up?
For vertical keys yes. For horizontal keys leave them default.
What measurement exactly are you having problems with? I didn't really follow what you mean. Thanks for the feedback.
You know, looking at it again this evening I think I swapped axis this morning. I was thinking about the vertical size of the cutout, but now that I look again you only provided the center of the cutout, not any of the dimensions. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the "right" amount of padding, but in the end ended up using exactly 5mm, as even 5.1mm would leave the stab too loose half the time.
One of these days I'll learn to not post when I don't have enough time to think it through. ;)
Post by: flabbergast on Fri, 29 January 2016, 15:09:40
Also it has a 7u spacebar, with kinda weird stab (http://i.imgur.com/PIw3AdJ.jpg), for which the s measurement is 42mm. I can also confirm that the ISO enter stab length is exactly the same as normal 2u stabs.
(EDIT: I measured again with an ordinary ruler, so the precision won't be very good, cca 0.5mm, maybe 1/4mm.)
Post by: wodan on Mon, 01 February 2016, 02:26:25
Borrowed a laser cutter/engraver from a friend yesterday and started cutting acrylic plates using SVG files from this Plate & Case builder. The results are incredibly good. Just for a test and since it's more or less the maximum size my laser can do, I did some generic 60% ISO plates from the keyboard layout editor templates.
Now I'm not sure if it's just my laser/software but the plate was precisely 1mm too narrow. Stretching the whole plate by 1mm horizontally gave me the perfect fit !
Thanks again for this incredible tool, I love it.
Post by: Heliobb on Sat, 20 February 2016, 03:23:51
First try for me.
I have a new layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/9029664582e7a8b2abec) :
(http://i.imgur.com/CBRs2mJ.png)
I will soon be able to user a laser cut machine and will love to cut a test plate. I went to http://builder.swillkb.com/ with my raw json but it returns me this.
(http://i.imgur.com/WYlScJ8.png)
Any ideas ? :)
What the best way to add the outlines of this keyboard (it will be splitted) ?
Thanks a lot for the builder !
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 February 2016, 08:15:02
Oh my god this tool/site is so awesome, I couldn't have dreamed of something that epic before I saw it.1mm too narrow for what? . Did you adjust for kerf by modifying the kerf value? If you are cutting g it yourself, you will need too. Some fab shops will adjust for kerf for you, but if you are doing it, you will have to enter a kerf value into the tool.
Borrowed a laser cutter/engraver from a friend yesterday and started cutting acrylic plates using SVG files from this Plate & Case builder. The results are incredibly good. Just for a test and since it's more or less the maximum size my laser can do, I did some generic 60% ISO plates from the keyboard layout editor templates.
Now I'm not sure if it's just my laser/software but the plate was precisely 1mm too narrow. Stretching the whole plate by 1mm horizontally gave me the perfect fit !
Thanks again for this incredible tool, I love it.
Post by: swill on Sat, 20 February 2016, 08:22:17
HelloIt will be a bit annoying, but it is possible. You basically have to change your drawing to only represent one hand at a time.
First try for me.
I have a new layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/9029664582e7a8b2abec) :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CBRs2mJ.png)
I will soon be able to user a laser cut machine and will love to cut a test plate. I went to http://builder.swillkb.com/ with my raw json but it returns me this.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WYlScJ8.png)
Any ideas ? :)
What the best way to add the outlines of this keyboard (it will be splitted) ?
Thanks a lot for the builder !
Check this post for an example and a potential starting point.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg1880557.msg#1880557
Post by: Heliobb on Sun, 21 February 2016, 07:04:44
Post by: rsac on Mon, 22 February 2016, 13:30:56
(http://i.imgur.com/TUjHGcO.png)
On the plate builder it ends up like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/thNYfuH.png)
Also, I assume that the advanced rounded corners feature of the keyboard-layout editor keyboard proprieties is not supported on your tool, right?
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 14:25:50
I'm also having problems with angled thumb clusters in this design (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/36fad099d2e1050b562c):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TUjHGcO.png)
On the plate builder it ends up like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/thNYfuH.png)
Also, I assume that the advanced rounded corners feature of the keyboard-layout editor keyboard proprieties is not supported on your tool, right?
No, I do not support the CSS rounded corners stuff. That was not in KLE when I wrote this. I will have to review that to see if support is possible, but I doubt it will be easy.
My tool thinks the LEDs are switches, so that is messing things up a bit. I will have to look at this layout to figure out how to fix it so it will work.
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 14:36:08
I'm also having problems with angled thumb clusters in this design (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/36fad099d2e1050b562c):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TUjHGcO.png)
On the plate builder it ends up like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/thNYfuH.png)
Also, I assume that the advanced rounded corners feature of the keyboard-layout editor keyboard proprieties is not supported on your tool, right?
No, I do not support the CSS rounded corners stuff. That was not in KLE when I wrote this. I will have to review that to see if support is possible, but I doubt it will be easy.
My tool thinks the LEDs are switches, so that is messing things up a bit. I will have to look at this layout to figure out how to fix it so it will work.
I may have to look into why the placement of that bottom cluster is so far off too. Maybe it is because the y value is both negatives, but i am not sure, I will have to look into that.
Post by: rsac on Mon, 22 February 2016, 16:33:05
No, I do not support the CSS rounded corners stuff. That was not in KLE when I wrote this. I will have to review that to see if support is possible, but I doubt it will be easy.The most important for me is the key placement in general, as I don't want the keys rubbing on each other.
My tool thinks the LEDs are switches, so that is messing things up a bit. I will have to look at this layout to figure out how to fix it so it will work.
The CSS rounded corners isn't crucial, as it seems I will have to do some finishing on Inkskape latter anyway. And I can take out the LEDs for your tool to process. So, support for those are just nice to haves.
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 19:48:35
Ya. I need to figure out why it is not rendering the key placement correctly. This is the first layout I have seen that is rendering so poorly.No, I do not support the CSS rounded corners stuff. That was not in KLE when I wrote this. I will have to review that to see if support is possible, but I doubt it will be easy.The most important for me is the key placement in general, as I don't want the keys rubbing on each other.
My tool thinks the LEDs are switches, so that is messing things up a bit. I will have to look at this layout to figure out how to fix it so it will work.
The CSS rounded corners isn't crucial, as it seems I will have to do some finishing on Inkskape latter anyway. And I can take out the LEDs for your tool to process. So, support for those are just nice to haves.
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 20:22:38
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 20:41:51
I'm also having problems with angled thumb clusters in this design (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/36fad099d2e1050b562c):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TUjHGcO.png)
On the plate builder it ends up like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/thNYfuH.png)
Also, I assume that the advanced rounded corners feature of the keyboard-layout editor keyboard proprieties is not supported on your tool, right?
Hello
First try for me.
I have a new layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/9029664582e7a8b2abec) :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CBRs2mJ.png)
I will soon be able to user a laser cut machine and will love to cut a test plate. I went to http://builder.swillkb.com/ with my raw json but it returns me this.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WYlScJ8.png)
Any ideas ? :)
What the best way to add the outlines of this keyboard (it will be splitted) ?
Thanks a lot for the builder !
So it looks like rsac is only using relative positioning for the rotated custer (which I did not realize was even possible), so I did not code for it.
It looks like Heliobb is using a combination of relative positioning and absolute positioning, so this is also causing problems.
Right now my tool only supports rotating absolutely positioned clusters. That means that the rotated cluster is positioned with 'rx' and 'ry' and not using 'x' and 'y' for the placement of a rotated cluster.
I will have to see if I can figure out how to support both absolute and relative positioning for rotated clusters. I think I need to handle that for non-rotated clusters as well. Being able to use absolute positioning and then doing relative positioning based on that, should be supported, but I need to review my code to figure out how to handle that.
Post by: rsac on Mon, 22 February 2016, 22:14:12
Did you guys build those layouts from scratch?I built mine using Atreus as base, but probably changed a lot of things. I noticed now that if I move the center of rotation using ctrl + arrows the position of the rotated clusters change. Your tool don't seem to receive this center of rotation as input. What it assumes as default?
Post by: swill on Mon, 22 February 2016, 22:20:00
I will have a look at that. I am only supporting absolute positioned rotated clusters. I will have to see what happens when you do ctrl + arrows on a key selection. Can you describe how you are creating the rotation so I can reproduce?Did you guys build those layouts from scratch?I built mine using Atreus as base, but probably changed a lot of things. I noticed now that if I move the center of rotation using ctrl + arrows the position of the rotated clusters change. Your tool don't seem to receive this center of rotation as input. What it assumes as default?
Post by: rsac on Tue, 23 February 2016, 08:22:56
I will have a look at that. I am only supporting absolute positioned rotated clusters. I will have to see what happens when you do ctrl + arrows on a key selection. Can you describe how you are creating the rotation so I can reproduce?I don't know how to do absolute positioned rotated clusters. IIRC I initially just replaced the rotation value in the key proprieties (based on the atreus one), using copy and paste to generate more keys. I might have use the ctrl+arrows by accident at that point, but I only really discovered the whole keyboard shortcuts (F1) after I finished the basic positioning.
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 February 2016, 09:09:53
I will have a look at that. I am only supporting absolute positioned rotated clusters. I will have to see what happens when you do ctrl + arrows on a key selection. Can you describe how you are creating the rotation so I can reproduce?I don't know how to do absolute positioned rotated clusters. IIRC I initially just replaced the rotation value in the key proprieties (based on the atreus one), using copy and paste to generate more keys. I might have use the ctrl+arrows by accident at that point, but I only really discovered the whole keyboard shortcuts (F1) after I finished the basic positioning.
Ya ok. I will have to spend some time to see how KLE handles stuff through the UI. I started looking at the code last night, but I am going to have to review and do a bunch of testing to figure out how to handle both relative and absolute positioning of keys.
Post by: Zorox on Wed, 24 February 2016, 03:06:48
Post by: swill on Wed, 24 February 2016, 08:32:12
@rsac && @Heliobb
I have pushed an update which fixes both of your situations. I am now handling the absolute positioning, relative positioning and rotated clusters better, so all of these layouts are now working. :)
Enjoy and thank you for letting me know so I can continue to improve the tool.
I'm also having problems with angled thumb clusters in this design (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/36fad099d2e1050b562c):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TUjHGcO.png)
On the plate builder it ends up like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/thNYfuH.png)
Also, I assume that the advanced rounded corners feature of the keyboard-layout editor keyboard proprieties is not supported on your tool, right?Hello
First try for me.
I have a new layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/9029664582e7a8b2abec) :Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CBRs2mJ.png)
I will soon be able to user a laser cut machine and will love to cut a test plate. I went to http://builder.swillkb.com/ with my raw json but it returns me this.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WYlScJ8.png)
Any ideas ? :)
What the best way to add the outlines of this keyboard (it will be splitted) ?
Thanks a lot for the builder !
So it looks like rsac is only using relative positioning for the rotated custer (which I did not realize was even possible), so I did not code for it.
It looks like Heliobb is using a combination of relative positioning and absolute positioning, so this is also causing problems.
Right now my tool only supports rotating absolutely positioned clusters. That means that the rotated cluster is positioned with 'rx' and 'ry' and not using 'x' and 'y' for the placement of a rotated cluster.
I will have to see if I can figure out how to support both absolute and relative positioning for rotated clusters. I think I need to handle that for non-rotated clusters as well. Being able to use absolute positioning and then doing relative positioning based on that, should be supported, but I need to review my code to figure out how to handle that.
Post by: swill on Wed, 24 February 2016, 08:32:44
Today I discovered you tool and now I need to left a comment to say that this is so brilliant. Thankyou very much for making this!
For sure. Enjoy. Please let me know if you have any feedback. :)
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:20:38
So I noticed I forgot everything I knew about FreeCAD since my last build, luckily swill has the 2D to 3D video linked in the OP, so I recalled the process
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/210a25bed527f640a4a9
For this design, the stepped caps-lock is joined to the outermost Polyline (and I'm guessing for all stepped caps-lock's), is there an easy way for me to separate them?
Post by: swill on Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:33:49
Hi everyone, I hope you are alright, quick question, not directly related to the builder :)I assume you are talking about the poker case right? I think your only option is to change your hole size. Not sure that is a good solution though.
So I noticed I forgot everything I knew about FreeCAD since my last build, luckily swill has the 2D to 3D video linked in the OP, so I recalled the process
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/210a25bed527f640a4a9
For this design, the stepped caps-lock is joined to the outermost Polyline (and I'm guessing for all stepped caps-lock's), is there an easy way for me to separate them?
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:59:13
Hi everyone, I hope you are alright, quick question, not directly related to the builder :)I assume you are talking about the poker case right? I think your only option is to change your hole size. Not sure that is a good solution though.
So I noticed I forgot everything I knew about FreeCAD since my last build, luckily swill has the 2D to 3D video linked in the OP, so I recalled the process
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/210a25bed527f640a4a9
For this design, the stepped caps-lock is joined to the outermost Polyline (and I'm guessing for all stepped caps-lock's), is there an easy way for me to separate them?
Thanks, it does work :)
I had the impression the left and right screw sections were un-affected by the hole diameter, but they are, setting it to 1mm solves the issue
I will manually add some cutouts in 3D
Post by: Heliobb on Sat, 27 February 2016, 03:29:21
Good News!!!
@rsac && @Heliobb
I have pushed an update which fixes both of your situations. I am now handling the absolute positioning, relative positioning and rotated clusters better, so all of these layouts are now working. :)
Enjoy and thank you for letting me know so I can continue to improve the tool.
Ouhao. Excellent. Thanks a lot !! :thumb:
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 February 2016, 09:17:13
I have recently launched a new version of the builder. Here is a quick breakdown of the changes.
- A complete UI rewrite from top to bottom.
- An awesome editor to make it easier to work with your layout and add the advanced inline options.
- Mobile friendly. Now every aspect of the tool scales to best fit the size screen you are working with.
- Much easier for me to be able to extend the UI and add additional features.
- Dramatically improved the deployment process. The tool is now deployed as a single binary.
All the previous functionality should work as expected. If you have any problems, please let me know.
A comparison...
The old:
[attach=1]
The new:
[attach=2]
Enjoy...
Post by: BigBlueSaw on Wed, 09 March 2016, 11:13:37
Post by: rsac on Thu, 10 March 2016, 18:28:52
Good News!!!Thank you very much! Sorry for the late response, but your tool was already useful for me to get a quote. Now I need to have time to tinker the outer design.
@rsac && @Heliobb
I have pushed an update which fixes both of your situations. I am now handling the absolute positioning, relative positioning and rotated clusters better, so all of these layouts are now working. :)
Enjoy and thank you for letting me know so I can continue to improve the tool.
As for further improvements, your tool isn't very smart in positioning the mount holes for the sandwich case. If I chose six, the top midle hole in the second layer ends up in the middle of an opening. It also don't ajusts the position in the rounded corners case. Bellow with 15mm radius.
(http://i.imgur.com/T5Looen.png)
If I specify a larger radius, like 50mm, the tool bugs out completely.
As I said, I won't be relying on your tool for this, so not a priority for me.
Post by: swill on Thu, 10 March 2016, 18:46:09
The placement of the hole in the opening is easy to change by adding 2 more holes. That is actually a bit of a feature because it allows you to tap those holes and use set screws to help fix a USB connector into that opening. That was raised a long time ago and I left it as is because it is easy to work around and can actually be useful in some cases.Good News!!!Thank you very much! Sorry for the late response, but your tool was already useful for me to get a quote. Now I need to have time to tinker the outer design.
@rsac && @Heliobb
I have pushed an update which fixes both of your situations. I am now handling the absolute positioning, relative positioning and rotated clusters better, so all of these layouts are now working. :)
Enjoy and thank you for letting me know so I can continue to improve the tool.
As for further improvements, your tool isn't very smart in positioning the mount holes for the sandwich case. If I chose six, the top midle hole in the second layer ends up in the middle of an opening. It also don't ajusts the position in the rounded corners case. Bellow with 15mm radius.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/T5Looen.png)
If I specify a larger radius, like 50mm, the tool bugs out completely.
As I said, I won't be relying on your tool for this, so not a priority for me.
As for the radius. That is pretty difficult to fix with the current code. I am rewriting how the padding is configured and the holes are placed, so expect some changes in this area in the next couple weeks.
Thanks for the feedback. :)
Post by: rsac on Mon, 21 March 2016, 22:51:08
The position of the Tab key in this layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/bca288603ca21a254383) is clearly wrong in the plate your tool generates (too high) . The F4 key also seems suspiciously high. The other rotated keys seems ok at a first glance, but I haven't checked.
Post by: swill on Wed, 23 March 2016, 19:48:52
There is still something wrong with the rotation handling.Sorry I have been so slow recently. I have had very limited time recently. I am in the middle of a complete rewrite of all of the padding and mount hole code, so I won't be able to address this for a little while.
The position of the Tab key in this layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/bca288603ca21a254383) is clearly wrong in the plate your tool generates (too high) . The F4 key also seems suspiciously high. The other rotated keys seems ok at a first glance, but I haven't checked.
I recently took on the role of release manager for a huge open source project and it is taking a lot of time. I can't seem to get through this backlog of over 50 unread emails at any given time.
I will try to find time for this, but I suspect I won't have any time for at least a couple weeks. I am over half way through the padding rewrite, so I will be finishing up that first as well.
As always. Thanks for reporting this and I will do my best to get you a solution in a reasonable time frame.
Post by: rampantandroid on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:28:37
Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
How does BBS calculate size? Just to see a ballpark figure of cost, I followed the steps: I created my layout on http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com, I dropped that code into your tool and generated it (I added a bit of padding on all sides - I need to also draw in holes at some point.) It seems to think that the item is 369.663 wide and 169.638 long. Did I miss a step?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:30:31
Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
How does BBS calculate size? Just to see a ballpark figure of cost, I followed the steps: I created my layout on http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com, I dropped that code into your tool and generated it (I added a bit of padding on all sides - I need to also draw in holes at some point.) It seems to think that the item is 369.663 wide and 169.638 long. Did I miss a step?
Those are mm, not inches.
Post by: swill on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:33:33
Yes, you have to convert to mm after you upload it to BBS.Why are you trying to get the dimensions? BBS has never asked for that on my plates. BBS will automatically calculate all that stuff for you when you upload the file. Can you explain your process of submitting the file to BBS so I can help guide you?
How does BBS calculate size? Just to see a ballpark figure of cost, I followed the steps: I created my layout on http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com, I dropped that code into your tool and generated it (I added a bit of padding on all sides - I need to also draw in holes at some point.) It seems to think that the item is 369.663 wide and 169.638 long. Did I miss a step?
Post by: rampantandroid on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:48:23
OK - so next (possibly silly) question - for selecting thickness, if I go with the sandwich case from the tool, what material do I need in terms of thickness? I need 8mm or so clearance for a Phantom, right? Everything they list is pretty thin (including acrylic) - is that just what the tool can quote and you need to ask for something thicker?
(and just to be sure - if I take the 104 key preset from keyboard-layout-editor, chop off the numpad and turn that into a plate, it'll work for a Phantom, right?)
Thanks a ton - the tool is awesome!
Post by: swill on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:57:37
D'oh - I can read.I have a few posts on this, but I don't remember off the top of my head.
OK - so next (possibly silly) question - for selecting thickness, if I go with the sandwich case from the tool, what material do I need in terms of thickness? I need 8mm or so clearance for a Phantom, right? Everything they list is pretty thin (including acrylic) - is that just what the tool can quote and you need to ask for something thicker?
(and just to be sure - if I take the 104 key preset from keyboard-layout-editor, chop off the numpad and turn that into a plate, it'll work for a Phantom, right?)
Thanks a ton - the tool is awesome!
You need to look at the cherry spec and calculate how much space the switch, pcb, controller and USB connector will take as they will all be in that space. For my build with a teensy, I think I dud about 15-16mm, but I needed space in the case for the teensy and the USB cabling etc.
That should get you going to figure out what you need. You will probably need to buy multiple layers for the middle. Since it is unlikely the USB opening is where I put it, you will probably have to use all closed layers and cut your own opening (or modify a closed cad drawing to add it)
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 24 March 2016, 09:07:36
(and just to be sure - if I take the 104 key preset from keyboard-layout-editor, chop off the numpad and turn that into a plate, it'll work for a Phantom, right?)
I wouldn't count on it. There is currently a group buy going on for skeleton style Phantom cases, and there is a thread by MOZ for an open source Phantom cases.
Post by: rampantandroid on Fri, 25 March 2016, 03:20:09
I wouldn't count on it. There is currently a group buy going on for skeleton style Phantom cases, and there is a thread by MOZ for an open source Phantom cases.
Moz's SVG tells you to get a top plate from Swill's tool, hence why I was asking if someone has an approved Phantom KLE layout done that is known to work with Swill's tool.
I had missed the skeleton GB - maybe I'll do that, thanks for bringing it up! Not 100% liking the skeleton thing, but it's probably the least painful option for me to get a known good top plate?
Post by: swill on Fri, 25 March 2016, 06:47:18
Oh, I didn't realize that. I would have to do a bit of research to figure out what layout is correct for that board. :)
I wouldn't count on it. There is currently a group buy going on for skeleton style Phantom cases, and there is a thread by MOZ for an open source Phantom cases.
Moz's SVG tells you to get a top plate from Swill's tool, hence why I was asking if someone has an approved Phantom KLE layout done that is known to work with Swill's tool.
I had missed the skeleton GB - maybe I'll do that, thanks for bringing it up! Not 100% liking the skeleton thing, but it's probably the least painful option for me to get a known good top plate?
Post by: climbalima on Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:41:06
Post by: swill on Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:47:10
I love your software and use it all the time. The only thing that I think could improve it is if you could change the line thickness. This would be nice for people who get their plates laser cut at ponoko.
I can add that pretty easily. What thickness does poncho require so I have a point of reference.
Post by: climbalima on Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:51:46
Post by: swill on Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:53:21
0.01mmOh. So smaller than I have. Ya OK. I should be able to add that soon. Just need to get the code back to a deployable spot. Have the guts open right now.
Post by: climbalima on Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:56:28
Post by: rampantandroid on Mon, 28 March 2016, 06:25:58
I compared by overlaying the output from your tool onto the CAD drawing and aligning it.
Post by: climbalima on Mon, 28 March 2016, 09:50:09
I quickly compared the output from your tool to a CAD drawing of a phantom plate - the main difference is that the CAD drawing had a wider cutout for the caps key (not for stabilizers, just wider.)Thats probably to support an offcenter caps lock.
I compared by overlaying the output from your tool onto the CAD drawing and aligning it.
Post by: swill on Mon, 28 March 2016, 10:08:57
I quickly compared the output from your tool to a CAD drawing of a phantom plate - the main difference is that the CAD drawing had a wider cutout for the caps key (not for stabilizers, just wider.)Is it the square cutout compared to my alps cutout? The cutouts are standard, so they can't be different. Which cutout did you use?
I compared by overlaying the output from your tool onto the CAD drawing and aligning it.
On second read, yes it would likely be the stepped caps lock support.
Third pass. I can show you how to do stepped caps lock support in my tool once I get to my computer later today.
Post by: apaskal on Wed, 20 April 2016, 12:00:56
Thank you Swill for a nice builder.
Please consider idea for sandwich case type.
Idea of additional top layer for keylayouts with missed keys. For example in HHKB layout it will be nice to have additional layer on top of switch layer.
Please look at images.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: skullydazed on Wed, 20 April 2016, 15:24:21
Hi!
Thank you Swill for a nice builder.
Please consider idea for sandwich case type.
Idea of additional top layer for keylayouts with missed keys. For example in HHKB layout it will be nice to have additional layer on top of switch layer.
Please look at images.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have a feature like that in my fork of the legacy codebase. If you're not adverse to getting your hands dirty with Linux, FreeCAD, and Python you can grab that here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
Post by: apaskal on Thu, 21 April 2016, 04:15:28
...skip...
I have a feature like that in my fork of the legacy codebase. If you're not adverse to getting your hands dirty with Linux, FreeCAD, and Python you can grab that here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
Nice! Thank you!
Post by: apaskal on Thu, 21 April 2016, 05:04:28
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 April 2016, 06:51:44
Want to send a pull request? I can add the feature to my legacy code.Hi!
Thank you Swill for a nice builder.
Please consider idea for sandwich case type.
Idea of additional top layer for keylayouts with missed keys. For example in HHKB layout it will be nice to have additional layer on top of switch layer.
Please look at images.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have a feature like that in my fork of the legacy codebase. If you're not adverse to getting your hands dirty with Linux, FreeCAD, and Python you can grab that here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
I have had very limited time recently because RL is intense.
I just slept for 6 hours and I had an empty inbox when I went to bed. I now have 103 emails in my inbox. :/
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: skullydazed on Thu, 21 April 2016, 10:29:52
Want to send a pull request? I can add the feature to my legacy code.Hi!
Thank you Swill for a nice builder.
Please consider idea for sandwich case type.
Idea of additional top layer for keylayouts with missed keys. For example in HHKB layout it will be nice to have additional layer on top of switch layer.
Please look at images.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have a feature like that in my fork of the legacy codebase. If you're not adverse to getting your hands dirty with Linux, FreeCAD, and Python you can grab that here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
I have had very limited time recently because RL is intense.
I just slept for 6 hours and I had an empty inbox when I went to bed. I now have 103 emails in my inbox. :/
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
A pull request is on my todo list but right now that's... a bit difficult. :)
Code: [Select]
$ git diff upstream/master | wc -l
2832
I've been reworking this code a lot trying to get it into a testable shape. Breaking things down into small self-contained functions, eliminating spaghetti code (and introducing a bit of new spaghetti code ;) ), and generally trying to get it to the point where I can build some unit tests. This has also enabled adding more new features, like generated case feet.
Hopefully soon I'll have some of those tests going, and we can talk about the best way to merge all of this upstream.
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 April 2016, 14:15:04
Coolio. :)Want to send a pull request? I can add the feature to my legacy code.Hi!
Thank you Swill for a nice builder.
Please consider idea for sandwich case type.
Idea of additional top layer for keylayouts with missed keys. For example in HHKB layout it will be nice to have additional layer on top of switch layer.
Please look at images.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have a feature like that in my fork of the legacy codebase. If you're not adverse to getting your hands dirty with Linux, FreeCAD, and Python you can grab that here:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
I have had very limited time recently because RL is intense.
I just slept for 6 hours and I had an empty inbox when I went to bed. I now have 103 emails in my inbox. :/
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
A pull request is on my todo list but right now that's... a bit difficult. :)Code: [Select]$ git diff upstream/master | wc -l
2832
I've been reworking this code a lot trying to get it into a testable shape. Breaking things down into small self-contained functions, eliminating spaghetti code (and introducing a bit of new spaghetti code ;) ), and generally trying to get it to the point where I can build some unit tests. This has also enabled adding more new features, like generated case feet.
Hopefully soon I'll have some of those tests going, and we can talk about the best way to merge all of this upstream.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 25 April 2016, 01:13:08
Code: [Select]
Ran 5 tests in 31.446s
OK
---------- coverage: platform linux2, python 2.7.6-final-0 -----------
Name Stmts Miss Cover
------------------------------------------------------------------
src/kb_builder/__init__.py 0 0 100%
src/kb_builder/builder.py 590 85 86%
src/kb_builder/test_all_features_poker.py 19 0 100%
src/kb_builder/test_all_features_sandwich.py 28 0 100%
src/kb_builder/test_all_shapes.py 17 0 100%
src/kb_builder/test_bevel.py 20 0 100%
src/kb_builder/test_numpad.py 18 0 100%
------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 692 85 88%
Coverage HTML written to dir htmlcov
Coverage XML written to file coverage.xml
Besides the under the hood changes there are a lot of features I've added over time.
- Specify keyboard properties (corners, padding, case type, etc) in a dictionary with the layout.
- Support for angled USB cutouts
- Support for offsetting the USB cutout
- Support for placing the USB cutout on any layer
- Support for drawing feet within the open/closed layers, and corresponding foot holes on the bottom layer.
- Support for adding arbitrary holes and/or polygons to any layer
- Support for "oversize" layers, which are bigger but have screw holes in the same location as smaller layers
Most of these features are activated by kb_cli flags, or by including a dictionary as the first entry in your layout. Here's an example of what that dictionary might look like:
Code: [Select]
{
'name': 'example_keyboard',
'case': {
'type': 'sandwich',
'screw_count': 8,
'screw_size': 2,
}
'corner_type': 'round',
'corner_radius': 4,
"feet": [
[25,25],
[50,25]
]
'kerf': 0.1,
'layers': {
'bottom': {
'holes': [
[5,5,2]
],
'polygons: [
[[1,1], [-1,1], [-1,-1], [-1,1], [1,1]]
],
'include_foot_holes': True,
},
'open': {
'draw_feet': True,
'oversize': 3,
},
'reinforcing': {},
'switch': {},
'top': {}
}
}
This will generate plates for bottom, open, reinforcing, switch, and top with holes cut for a sandwich case. The bottom plate will have holes that accept feet that will be drawn inside the open layer. The open layer will be 3mm bigger than the other layers, but it'll all still screw together.
Swill, please take a look over my tree at your convenience. I'm not in any hurry to get this merged, and you seem pretty busy right now. :) If you want to port any of these features back to your golang implementation but aren't sure about some of the choices I've made (or even if some of my choices make you hesitate to accept a pull request for the legacy codebase) we can talk about doing those in a way that's more to your liking. I think setting these keyboard properties as part of the layout is pretty handy, and would like to finalize that format (and maybe even talk to KLE about adding support for those dict keys to their tool.)
For anyone else still reading, I could use some testing. The kb_cli works for my use cases, but I can't begin to imagine all the creative ways other people may use it. If you're handy enough to use the CLI and already have (or can setup) the legacy codebase, please grab my copy here and give it a whirl:
https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder
I know with all the hacking I did this weekend I probably broke something, so let me know what problems you encounter. :)
Post by: phoible on Thu, 28 April 2016, 09:50:48
Any thoughts or suggestions on how to get this working?
Post by: swill on Thu, 28 April 2016, 12:28:41
I'm trying to generate a layout for a 60% AEKII plate. I entered 6.5 for the spacebar width, and chose ALPS stabilizers (I also tried manually setting _s:4). It still seems to be drawing costar stabilizers for the spacebar.
Any thoughts or suggestions on how to get this working?
Sorry, I need to get 6.5u spacebars added. I have had conflicting reports on the sizes and I didn't have a chance to try to get measurements from a bunch of people yet to try to get some consensus. If you happen to be able to measure one, I would happily add it to the list of measurements I have been given. :) I need to review this and get something pushed, even if it is not perfect...
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 01 May 2016, 16:38:32
Loading up the DFX file tells me that by plate is 285.750 x 119.062 inches!
Here's my source:
Code: [Select]
[{c:"#333430",t:"#ff6800",a:5},"GEEK\nHACK",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52"},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"Pause"],
[{y:0.25,f:3},"ESC",{c:"#5f5c52",a:5,f:5},"!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\",{f:3},"~\n`"],
[{c:"#333430",a:7,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O",{f:8},"P",{a:5,f:4},"{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:9,w:1.5},"←"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.75},"CTRL",{x:0.5,c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:6},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"ENTER"],
[{w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:8},"<\n,",">\n.",{f:6},"?\n/",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN"],
[{x:1.5},"WIN",{w:1.5},"ALT",{c:"#5f5c52",w:7},"",{c:"#333430",w:1.5},"ALT","WIN"]
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 01 May 2016, 17:07:24
I ran into a problem with the BigBlueSaw quote feature.
Loading up the DFX file tells me that by plate is 285.750 x 119.062 inches!
Here's my source:Code: [Select][{c:"#333430",t:"#ff6800",a:5},"GEEK\nHACK",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52"},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"Pause"],
[{y:0.25,f:3},"ESC",{c:"#5f5c52",a:5,f:5},"!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\",{f:3},"~\n`"],
[{c:"#333430",a:7,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O",{f:8},"P",{a:5,f:4},"{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:9,w:1.5},"←"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.75},"CTRL",{x:0.5,c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:6},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"ENTER"],
[{w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:8},"<\n,",">\n.",{f:6},"?\n/",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN"],
[{x:1.5},"WIN",{w:1.5},"ALT",{c:"#5f5c52",w:7},"",{c:"#333430",w:1.5},"ALT","WIN"]
Those are mm, not inches. You have to convert the DXF to have mm as units before sending to BBS.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 01 May 2016, 17:08:15
I ran into a problem with the BigBlueSaw quote feature.
Loading up the DFX file tells me that by plate is 285.750 x 119.062 inches!
Here's my source:Code: [Select][{c:"#333430",t:"#ff6800",a:5},"GEEK\nHACK",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52"},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"Pause"],
[{y:0.25,f:3},"ESC",{c:"#5f5c52",a:5,f:5},"!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\",{f:3},"~\n`"],
[{c:"#333430",a:7,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O",{f:8},"P",{a:5,f:4},"{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:9,w:1.5},"←"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.75},"CTRL",{x:0.5,c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:6},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"ENTER"],
[{w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:8},"<\n,",">\n.",{f:6},"?\n/",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN"],
[{x:1.5},"WIN",{w:1.5},"ALT",{c:"#5f5c52",w:7},"",{c:"#333430",w:1.5},"ALT","WIN"]
Those are mm, not inches. You have to convert the DXF to have mm as units before sending to BBS.
Thanks, JD, that makes sense :thumb:
Post by: swill on Sun, 01 May 2016, 17:11:08
BBS has a single click function to do this for you BTW.I ran into a problem with the BigBlueSaw quote feature.
Loading up the DFX file tells me that by plate is 285.750 x 119.062 inches!
Here's my source:Code: [Select][{c:"#333430",t:"#ff6800",a:5},"GEEK\nHACK",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52"},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"Pause"],
[{y:0.25,f:3},"ESC",{c:"#5f5c52",a:5,f:5},"!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\",{f:3},"~\n`"],
[{c:"#333430",a:7,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O",{f:8},"P",{a:5,f:4},"{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:9,w:1.5},"←"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.75},"CTRL",{x:0.5,c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:6},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"ENTER"],
[{w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:8},"<\n,",">\n.",{f:6},"?\n/",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN"],
[{x:1.5},"WIN",{w:1.5},"ALT",{c:"#5f5c52",w:7},"",{c:"#333430",w:1.5},"ALT","WIN"]
Those are mm, not inches. You have to convert the DXF to have mm as units before sending to BBS.
Thanks, JD, that makes sense :thumb:
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 01 May 2016, 17:13:10
BBS has a single click function to do this for you BTW.I ran into a problem with the BigBlueSaw quote feature.
Loading up the DFX file tells me that by plate is 285.750 x 119.062 inches!
Here's my source:Code: [Select][{c:"#333430",t:"#ff6800",a:5},"GEEK\nHACK",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25,c:"#5f5c52"},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25,c:"#333430"},"Pause"],
[{y:0.25,f:3},"ESC",{c:"#5f5c52",a:5,f:5},"!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\",{f:3},"~\n`"],
[{c:"#333430",a:7,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O",{f:8},"P",{a:5,f:4},"{\n[","}\n]",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:9,w:1.5},"←"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.75},"CTRL",{x:0.5,c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:6},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"ENTER"],
[{w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#5f5c52",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:8},"<\n,",">\n.",{f:6},"?\n/",{c:"#333430",a:7,f:3,w:1.75},"SHIFT","FN"],
[{x:1.5},"WIN",{w:1.5},"ALT",{c:"#5f5c52",w:7},"",{c:"#333430",w:1.5},"ALT","WIN"]
Those are mm, not inches. You have to convert the DXF to have mm as units before sending to BBS.
Thanks, JD, that makes sense :thumb:
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Yep, I saw it :D I was just worried I did something majorly wrong as I'm a noob when it comes to all of this. Cheers!
Post by: Eszett on Sun, 22 May 2016, 01:08:11
Post by: rampantandroid on Sun, 22 May 2016, 03:52:52
Post by: Eszett on Sun, 22 May 2016, 04:02:36
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 22 May 2016, 06:36:23
(To clarify, this is not a helpful comment, just pointing out that you are not alone)
As a helpful pointer tho, you can always work those stabs/stab-cutouts after production, if they are not steel, just sand them until you are satisfied
Post by: Eszett on Sun, 22 May 2016, 06:49:25
update: I've just used a nail file and files like 1mm away, now they fit! Half I'm happy, half I'm cursing against Cherry :thumb:
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 22 May 2016, 07:20:44
KAAAN, good point. Yes I already thought about sanding/filing them, but I wasnt sure if I was too stupid to figure out how to install them.
update: I've just used a nail file and files like 1mm away, now they fit! Half I'm happy, half I'm cursing against Cherry :thumb:
If it works, great!
With all stabs, you have to fine tune them to your liking, both Cherry and Costar, they benefit significantly from modifications
As a small suggestion, a bit snugness might be good too, once or twice I went ahead and carved out too much and regretted later on, tho in the end, it doesn't matter if the construct is slightly loose, as the stabs themselves are far looser
Post by: BillyBuerger on Mon, 23 May 2016, 09:57:27
Either way, swill's tool is awesome and made this process much easier then me guessing on my drawings and wasting money figuring it out myself.
Post by: Eszett on Mon, 23 May 2016, 10:27:42
I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Post by: evangs on Mon, 23 May 2016, 10:56:46
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 May 2016, 10:58:05
Can you highlight which sides of the stab cutouts need a bit more space? I doubt it is all dimensions. Is it the width, height or what that is tight?I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: evangs on Mon, 23 May 2016, 10:58:46
For me it was the width. The height seemed fineCan you highlight which sides of the stab cutouts need a bit more space? I doubt it is all dimensions. Is it the width, height or what that is tight?I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 May 2016, 11:00:04
For me it was the width. The height seemed fineCan you highlight which sides of the stab cutouts need a bit more space? I doubt it is all dimensions. Is it the width, height or what that is tight?I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And you are using costar? I think people are also saying cherry variations are tight too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: evangs on Mon, 23 May 2016, 11:00:48
Yea, I used costar only on he played in questionFor me it was the width. The height seemed fineCan you highlight which sides of the stab cutouts need a bit more space? I doubt it is all dimensions. Is it the width, height or what that is tight?I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And you are using costar? I think people are also saying cherry variations are tight too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 May 2016, 11:01:56
OK. So make costar a bit wider. I will let the cherry people weigh in too. Thx. :)Yea, I used costar only on he played in questionFor me it was the width. The height seemed fineCan you highlight which sides of the stab cutouts need a bit more space? I doubt it is all dimensions. Is it the width, height or what that is tight?I recently used swill's plate builder and noticed a similar issue with stabs. I didn't apply any kerf and both Cherry and Alps switches fit very nicely. Maybe just a tad loose if anything. But both Cherry and Costar stabs go in very tight. I was playing around with some small pieces and while I got them it, it caused the overall mounting holes for the switches to stretch so that the switches are loose. As was mentioned, it should be easy to file it just a little to fix the tightness. But given that the switches don't seem to have the same issue, maybe the stab holes need to be adjusted slightly?Same here. I've added no "Anti-Kerf" and switches fit the cutouts alright, maybe a tad loose, no issue though. But stabs were impossible for me to insert. Let's suggest a little correction in the dimensions for the Cherry stab cutouts. What do you think, swill?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And you are using costar? I think people are also saying cherry variations are tight too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: evangs on Mon, 23 May 2016, 11:02:25
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Eszett on Mon, 23 May 2016, 11:14:59
Post by: swill on Mon, 23 May 2016, 12:09:25
swill, I gonna post you a proposal with illustration and exact dimensions soon, have to leave the house now.No problem. Keep in mind that very small changes show up as bigger changes once they get cut. I have a bronze plate cut with this tool with cherry stabs, they are tight but usable. I will use it and your experience to help guide the change in dimensions. Thx guys.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: Eszett on Mon, 23 May 2016, 14:17:11
[attachimg=1]
Post by: kiwi99 on Mon, 23 May 2016, 14:38:52
Also, swill have you ever considered adding an option for corner cuts for CNCs? pictures for clarification on what I mean.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xP1fpVgw-sw/U3-3VKApJMI/AAAAAAAAAM4/-tDrleJBLLM/s1600/dogbone_explanation-11.png)
(http://www.mozaiksoftware.com/_/rsrc/1343511843628/products/mozaik-cnc/Captive%20Dado%20Corner%20Types.jpg)
Post by: Charger on Mon, 23 May 2016, 14:45:01
I'll chime in since I've used the tool a lot and say the costar cutouts (not the costar+cherry ones) were fine, my alps stab holes though were a little narrow for sure and could use just even .25 on each side since I ended up having to shave my stabs down a little bit to fit. This being said my experience is with a waterjet doing these cuts and might just be the machines precision was the issue.I noticed most cutouts were a bit tight when I had my plates water jet cut but I guess that was to be expected a bit.
Also, swill have you ever considered adding an option for corner cuts for CNCs? pictures for clarification on what I mean.Show Image(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xP1fpVgw-sw/U3-3VKApJMI/AAAAAAAAAM4/-tDrleJBLLM/s1600/dogbone_explanation-11.png)Show Image(http://www.mozaiksoftware.com/_/rsrc/1343511843628/products/mozaik-cnc/Captive%20Dado%20Corner%20Types.jpg)
oh I would love for this to be added as well.
Post by: BillyBuerger on Tue, 24 May 2016, 02:39:46
Here's a picture of my pieces I had cut out and where I filed. I had them cut by BigBlueSaw out of Acrylic.
[attach=1]
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 24 May 2016, 02:49:11
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:00:02
Jeez, I was mistaken! Beeing stupid trying to insert the stabs from below ... Just figured you can really insert the Cherry plate mount stabs from above, and by this way, its cutout has not to be enlarged by one extra millimeter. Neither do you have to sand the stabs!If I read this correctly, the cutouts work when inserted this way?
(Attachment Link)
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Post by: swill on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:01:06
Okay, I checked on it again. Looks like I was wrong about costar. They go in tight but the switch seems to fit the same with our without them. But cherry definitely stretches things. I don't think I can easily measure how much needs to be adjusted. I filed down on the top side a little bit and now they go in easier and the switch isn't quite as loose. I would agree with Eszett's drawing. Since things are a little loose in the switch, it probably wouldn't matter if I took a little off the top or bottom. But since the stabs are already lower then the switch, I would tend to want to file off the top and shift the side bits up with it.I can potentially add a little space. You are saying it is only the top that needs some space?
Here's a picture of my pieces I had cut out and where I filed. I had them cut by BigBlueSaw out of Acrylic.
(Attachment Link)
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Post by: swill on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:13:22
I'll chime in since I've used the tool a lot and say the costar cutouts (not the costar+cherry ones) were fine, my alps stab holes though were a little narrow for sure and could use just even .25 on each side since I ended up having to shave my stabs down a little bit to fit. This being said my experience is with a waterjet doing these cuts and might just be the machines precision was the issue.
Also, swill have you ever considered adding an option for corner cuts for CNCs? pictures for clarification on what I mean.Show Image(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xP1fpVgw-sw/U3-3VKApJMI/AAAAAAAAAM4/-tDrleJBLLM/s1600/dogbone_explanation-11.png)Show Image(http://www.mozaiksoftware.com/_/rsrc/1343511843628/products/mozaik-cnc/Captive%20Dado%20Corner%20Types.jpg)
I can widen the alps stab cutouts a bit. Thanks.
Yes. I am hoping to add the dog bone as an optional modification to cutouts. It would be on a limited set of cutouts though because I have no interest in trying to figure out how to make a cherry stabilizer cutout with a dynamic sized cnc bit.
I have been very busy recently, so it will likely take me a little while to get all these changes in. As many of you may have noticed, I have not been very active on GH recently. I have been working 12 hour days as the release manager for apache cloudstack, so my time is pretty limited.
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Post by: Eszett on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:14:36
If I read this correctly, the cutouts work when inserted this way?Yes. The cutouts the plate builder creates are fine, as long as you insert the stabs from above the plate. I didn't know you have to insert them from above the plate. So, no need to change the dimensions.
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:19:02
I did find them tight (but worked) with the cherry cutout as they are. I will review if it makes sense to modify the dimensions at all with my plate.If I read this correctly, the cutouts work when inserted this way?Yes. The cutouts the plate builder creates are fine, as long as you insert the stabs from above the plate. I didn't know you have to insert them from above the plate. So, no need to change the dimensions.
Thanks for the support everyone.
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Post by: Eszett on Tue, 24 May 2016, 08:23:57
Post by: BillyBuerger on Tue, 24 May 2016, 09:53:01
I can potentially add a little space. You are saying it is only the top that needs some space?
Part of my problem might just be that I'm using such small pieces with a thin acrylic. The size might be fine on something more normal sized. If Eszett is fine with the size as is, then I'm fine. We'll see when I actually do a real backplate if I have any issues.
One other thing I've been meaning to bring up also related to the cherry stabs is using them with Alps switches. Alps switches clip on the sides. With the cherry stabs as they are right now, the sides are pretty much gone. So the Alps switches (Matais) drop through pretty easily. It seems like there should/could be more border around the switch. I found this picture where someone has Cherry/Alps switch mounting and Cherry/Costar stabs that have the extra bit I'm talking about...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1824.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1824.jpg)
Personally, I'm playing around with some Planck style layouts so almost everything is 1U anyways. And even the couple of 2U I'll probably do without stabs so it's not a big deal. Maybe most people using Alps are also using Costar which doesn't have this issue. Costars are easier from a plate perspective. And if you are doing this in something cheaper like acrylic, I'm not sure if the thin sides will hold up very well anyways. What do you think?
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 May 2016, 12:54:29
I built my cherry cutouts to spec, which is why that piece is missing. I was considering doing exactly what you show in that picture, but I chickened out because I didn't know if I would be messing up anything else. In my experience I think what you show in your picture is actually better for the stabilizer anyway because then it can't twist when you insert it (since the cutout is quite tight).I can potentially add a little space. You are saying it is only the top that needs some space?
Part of my problem might just be that I'm using such small pieces with a thin acrylic. The size might be fine on something more normal sized. If Eszett is fine with the size as is, then I'm fine. We'll see when I actually do a real backplate if I have any issues.
One other thing I've been meaning to bring up also related to the cherry stabs is using them with Alps switches. Alps switches clip on the sides. With the cherry stabs as they are right now, the sides are pretty much gone. So the Alps switches (Matais) drop through pretty easily. It seems like there should/could be more border around the switch. I found this picture where someone has Cherry/Alps switch mounting and Cherry/Costar stabs that have the extra bit I'm talking about...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1824.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1824.jpg)
Personally, I'm playing around with some Planck style layouts so almost everything is 1U anyways. And even the couple of 2U I'll probably do without stabs so it's not a big deal. Maybe most people using Alps are also using Costar which doesn't have this issue. Costars are easier from a plate perspective. And if you are doing this in something cheaper like acrylic, I'm not sure if the thin sides will hold up very well anyways. What do you think?
I will probably do that because I think it is better and it will also fix the use case you just described.
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Post by: joey on Fri, 27 May 2016, 14:27:01
Post by: swill on Fri, 27 May 2016, 15:38:00
Anyone got any idea what the kerf should be for an acrylic laser cut? (From somewhere like ponoko)
If you are getting it professionally done, check with the fab shop to see if they adjust for kerf on your behalf. Most of the fab shops assume people don't know what kerf is and automatically adjust for kerf on your behalf. If they don't adjust for kerf, they will usually tell you what the cut width of their laser is, and you can just enter that value (in mm) into the tool and the tool will adjust the drawing.
Hope that helps...
Post by: Xelus22 on Sat, 28 May 2016, 06:53:30
Post by: Suruga Devil on Mon, 30 May 2016, 16:18:23
Is there anyway of fitting a plate mounted cherry stab onto a piece of acrylic 3mm thick? Just looking at some compatibility issues.
Yes- but it won't clip onto the acrylic plate. If you have a PCB, it will be held in by the solder joints.
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 May 2016, 17:07:38
Is there anyway of fitting a plate mounted cherry stab onto a piece of acrylic 3mm thick? Just looking at some compatibility issues.
Yes- but it won't clip onto the acrylic plate. If you have a PCB, it will be held in by the solder joints.
This works for switches but not stabilizers. You need a PCB and PCB mount stabs to use 3mm acrylic because otherwise there is nothing for the stab to clip into...
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 May 2016, 17:20:53
Cherry spec for reference: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cherryswitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Keymodule_MX_EN.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjtpdiT6YLNAhVK6YMKHbBABEsQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGTTaN1wmYvGjZDXSj4JcEE-8Ufiw&sig2=AfjqMBy67bMmr6NTM8etIQ
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Post by: Suruga Devil on Mon, 30 May 2016, 17:38:55
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 30 May 2016, 22:00:01
I have only ever used 5mm acrylic for acrylic plates, but not with my builder. I am not confident a 3mm plate will even work because there is 5mm of space between the pcb and the surface the plate needs to touch. If you use 3mm, I think the plate could slide around in that extra 2mm of space because it won't clip in. Obviously as you press keys it would push the switches down into the plate, but I suspect you will get a mushy sensation. Maybe someone else who has tried 3mm plates can chime in.
Cherry spec for reference: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cherryswitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Keymodule_MX_EN.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjtpdiT6YLNAhVK6YMKHbBABEsQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGTTaN1wmYvGjZDXSj4JcEE-8Ufiw&sig2=AfjqMBy67bMmr6NTM8etIQ
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If you use a 3mm plate (or a 5mm plate) you will have problems with stabilizers. The PCB mount stabs need more room in the space below the 1.5mm plate. In my experience you basically have to extend the bottom of the stabilizer cutout until it meets the top edge of the cutout for the row below to have enough room on a 5mm plate.
You will get more flex doing this, but some people see that as a bonus. As you get moving along the keyboard kinda bounces up and down with your hands.
Post by: Shihatsu on Tue, 31 May 2016, 12:37:29
Post by: ideus on Tue, 07 June 2016, 10:22:48
Does the tool compensate the total plate size to fit a 60 case, when that option is chosen? I made a sixty layout that is 14.75 units width instead of the standard 15 units and I chose the Poker case option, but I am not sure if the CAD file has a compensation for the overall plate width.
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 June 2016, 10:35:52
I am very impressed with your tool, congratulations on a job well done.
Does the tool compensate the total plate size to fit a 60 case, when that option is chosen? I made a sixty layout that is 14.75 units width instead of the standard 15 units and I chose the Poker case option, but I am not sure if the CAD file has a compensation for the overall plate width.
Not perfectly. It will adjust, but only if you are using 15u total horizontally and 5u vertically. If that is the case, then yes. If you do not have that, then it will not work as expected. I am in the process of rewriting how all of the sizing and padding stuff works, but I have not had a chance to work on it in months (real life is crazy right now).
Does that help? You will probably want to validate that the width of the resulting poker case is 285mm and height is 94.6mm.
Edit: To directly answer your question. You will probably have to put an x offset (on both sides) in your layout to make the total width 15 units to make it work. I know how to do this on the left, but I am not sure how we can do that on the right. Will have to think about this...
Post by: xondat on Tue, 07 June 2016, 11:13:09
(https://i.imgur.com/TnwsLVe.jpg)
Post by: iandoug on Tue, 07 June 2016, 11:21:43
Is your tool still working?
I tried with my layout and got this error:
Lexical error on line 1. Unrecognized text (and them some symbols).
Layout is latest version (from my computer) of Programmer's Keyboard on KLE.
When I paste it in all I see is a red dot... is that correct?
Thanks, Ian
Post by: kiwi99 on Tue, 07 June 2016, 11:59:56
Hi Swill
Is your tool still working?
I tried with my layout and got this error:
Lexical error on line 1. Unrecognized text (and them some symbols).
Layout is latest version (from my computer) of Programmer's Keyboard on KLE.
When I paste it in all I see is a red dot... is that correct?
Thanks, Ian
Hm, I tried it and it works for me with a bit of cleanup.
(http://puu.sh/pkdBl/f8bafe831d.png)
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Post by: ideus on Tue, 07 June 2016, 12:16:59
I am very impressed with your tool, congratulations on a job well done.
Does the tool compensate the total plate size to fit a 60 case, when that option is chosen? I made a sixty layout that is 14.75 units width instead of the standard 15 units and I chose the Poker case option, but I am not sure if the CAD file has a compensation for the overall plate width.
Not perfectly. It will adjust, but only if you are using 15u total horizontally and 5u vertically. If that is the case, then yes. If you do not have that, then it will not work as expected. I am in the process of rewriting how all of the sizing and padding stuff works, but I have not had a chance to work on it in months (real life is crazy right now).
Does that help? You will probably want to validate that the width of the resulting poker case is 285mm and height is 94.6mm.
Edit: To directly answer your question. You will probably have to put an x offset (on both sides) in your layout to make the total width 15 units to make it work. I know how to do this on the left, but I am not sure how we can do that on the right. Will have to think about this...
The explanation helps a lot, I will try to compensate the final result manually, or use the option for the sandwich case instead. I will look forward for the version with automatic adjustment though, because my CAD skills are totally rusty and that sucks, LOL.
Thank you again for sharing your hard work.
Just as a reference, this is the layout I want to make a plate for, it is for use a vintage OG Cherry double shot set of an NCR PC4 keyboard, that has hat style caps that I like a lot.
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 June 2016, 13:50:25
Hi Swill
Is your tool still working?
I tried with my layout and got this error:
Lexical error on line 1. Unrecognized text (and them some symbols).
Layout is latest version (from my computer) of Programmer's Keyboard on KLE.
When I paste it in all I see is a red dot... is that correct?
Thanks, Ian
Sounds like a syntax error. Paste the code you used and I will review it.
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 June 2016, 13:51:43
Couple of small tweaks needed on my end but I used the tool and got some plates made. They're perfect. Thank you for having this publicly available.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TnwsLVe.jpg)
That is a thing of beauty. :) Good work. Did you use overlapping keys to create the larger cutouts? That is what I do for things like supporting both caps locks etc...
Post by: xondat on Tue, 07 June 2016, 16:35:50
Couple of small tweaks needed on my end but I used the tool and got some plates made. They're perfect. Thank you for having this publicly available.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TnwsLVe.jpg)
That is a thing of beauty. :) Good work. Did you use overlapping keys to create the larger cutouts? That is what I do for things like supporting both caps locks etc...
Yeah - for the bottom row I used several 1u keys instead of the layout I wanted. Other slots worked fine (see split rshift and enter cluster).
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 June 2016, 16:42:01
Couple of small tweaks needed on my end but I used the tool and got some plates made. They're perfect. Thank you for having this publicly available.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TnwsLVe.jpg)
That is a thing of beauty. :) Good work. Did you use overlapping keys to create the larger cutouts? That is what I do for things like supporting both caps locks etc...
Yeah - for the bottom row I used several 1u keys instead of the layout I wanted. Other slots worked fine (see split rshift and enter cluster).
Ya, this works pretty well. I have been promoting this as an approach for handling situations like this.
Post by: emdude on Tue, 14 June 2016, 15:59:13
Post by: xondat on Sun, 19 June 2016, 15:16:28
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
Post by: ideus on Sun, 19 June 2016, 17:05:00
I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 19 June 2016, 17:35:17
Post by: xondat on Sun, 19 June 2016, 19:35:37
What is the best plate thickness to allow proper MX switch clipping?
1.5 is standard.
Post by: swill on Sun, 19 June 2016, 19:38:19
It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Sun, 19 June 2016, 19:49:19
It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.
(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
Post by: swill on Sun, 19 June 2016, 21:36:44
It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
I just restarted the server to make sure nothing strange was going on. I then checked and everything is working as expected. DXF is an available option. If you still have problems, let me know. :)
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 07:25:30
It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
I just restarted the server to make sure nothing strange was going on. I then checked and everything is working as expected. DXF is an available option. If you still have problems, let me know. :)
It works, than you very much.
(http://i.imgur.com/rjSwu9Z.jpg)
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 June 2016, 07:32:23
Cool. Thanks for letting me know it was not behaving. :)It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
I just restarted the server to make sure nothing strange was going on. I then checked and everything is working as expected. DXF is an available option. If you still have problems, let me know. :)
It works, than you very much.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rjSwu9Z.jpg)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 08:55:17
Cool. Thanks for letting me know it was not behaving. :)It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
I just restarted the server to make sure nothing strange was going on. I then checked and everything is working as expected. DXF is an available option. If you still have problems, let me know. :)
It works, than you very much.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rjSwu9Z.jpg)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
The community is who has to thank you for this wonderful tool, it saves us a lot of work to draw proper layouts to be cut, it opens the possibility for us with rusted CAD skills to explore interesting hand wired layouts.
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 June 2016, 10:39:42
The irony is that I started building this tool because I did not want to learn CAD, we'll at least to the point where I would be confident in spending money on my CAD design. I was like "if I code it, I can be confident in the result". Of course, now I know more about CAD than I ever would have needed for the plate I was designing. I have also put in about 100x the time it would have taken to draw the CAD by hand building and updating the tool. So I guess as long as 100 people get value from the tool it was worth it.Cool. Thanks for letting me know it was not behaving. :)It should be working. I will check what happened. Maybe there is some files that did not get removed correctly and are blocking the generation of the dxf files. Will check later tonight.I can no longer download .dxf files - have I missed something? The option when generating the CAD file no longer shows up.
Oh and .dxf files that I have import into CAD 10 times bigger than they should. Any reason for this?
It happened to me also, I suppose Swill removed the feature, I hope he reinstates it soon.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Alright, thank you very much Swill, I want to have this to be laser cut this week.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kgrGRp6.png)
I just restarted the server to make sure nothing strange was going on. I then checked and everything is working as expected. DXF is an available option. If you still have problems, let me know. :)
It works, than you very much.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rjSwu9Z.jpg)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
The community is who has to thank you for this wonderful tool, it saves us a lot of work to draw proper layouts to be cut, it opens the possibility for us with rusted CAD skills to explore interesting hand wired layouts.
Post by: xondat on Thu, 23 June 2016, 14:13:44
How come plates when imported are 10x the size they should be? Not a problem, just wondering why.
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 June 2016, 14:52:39
Show Image(http://image.prntscr.com/image/62b3c3c926e845cbaa0b48fecbe318a3.png)
How come plates when imported are 10x the size they should be? Not a problem, just wondering why.
Probably because your units are not in millimeters in your CAD program. The values saved in the imported file is in MM. If your units of measure are set to CM or Inches, then the scale of the drawing will be much larger than it should be.
You need to select the drawing and go to something like Drawing Properties and change the units from what it is to MM. Let me know if you have questions. Which CAD program are you using?
Post by: xondat on Thu, 23 June 2016, 15:04:59
Show Image(http://image.prntscr.com/image/62b3c3c926e845cbaa0b48fecbe318a3.png)
How come plates when imported are 10x the size they should be? Not a problem, just wondering why.
Probably because your units are not in millimeters in your CAD program. The values saved in the imported file is in MM. If your units of measure are set to CM or Inches, then the scale of the drawing will be much larger than it should be.
You need to select the drawing and go to something like Drawing Properties and change the units from what it is to MM. Let me know if you have questions. Which CAD program are you using?
All units are in MM, so not quite sure about that. Using Fusion 360.
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 June 2016, 15:37:23
Show Image(http://image.prntscr.com/image/62b3c3c926e845cbaa0b48fecbe318a3.png)
How come plates when imported are 10x the size they should be? Not a problem, just wondering why.
Probably because your units are not in millimeters in your CAD program. The values saved in the imported file is in MM. If your units of measure are set to CM or Inches, then the scale of the drawing will be much larger than it should be.
You need to select the drawing and go to something like Drawing Properties and change the units from what it is to MM. Let me know if you have questions. Which CAD program are you using?
All units are in MM, so not quite sure about that. Using Fusion 360.
Hmmm, that is strange. I have never used Fusion 360.
Maybe try the following:
- Download the DXF version of your plate.
- Open it in LibreCAD
- Edit -> Current Drawing Preferences (Command + ,)
- Select Units and change Main drawing unit to Millimeter
- Click OK
- File -> Save as...
- Save the file with type Draw Exchange DXF 2007
Then try to open that DXF file in Fusion 360. The DXF 2007 file format supports units embedded in the actual file, so that should fix the problem in Fusion 360.
Let me know if that helps.
Post by: Data on Fri, 24 June 2016, 07:09:42
BigBlueSaw prefers imperial over metric. It's not a big deal.
Post by: swill on Fri, 24 June 2016, 07:46:51
When I import DXF files from this tool into AutoCAD I always have to convert them to inches with the SCALE command, using a factor of 0.03937.BBS has a feature to automatically convert my drawings to inches from millimeters.
BigBlueSaw prefers imperial over metric. It's not a big deal.
Once you upload my drawings to BBS, there is a button to "convert from millimeters" or something like that. Simon added that feature specifically for us to be used with my tool.
All to say, you should not need to manually convert the drawings.
Post by: iandoug on Mon, 27 June 2016, 05:16:51
Hm, I tried it and it works for me with a bit of cleanup.
I should have been clearer ... I have a more recent version that is not on the public site. It is this code that caused the error.
When you say "cleanup" do you mean before submitting, or the resulting image? If before, can you maybe advise what you did? :-)
thanks, Ian
Post by: swill on Mon, 27 June 2016, 07:49:32
Hm, I tried it and it works for me with a bit of cleanup.
I should have been clearer ... I have a more recent version that is not on the public site. It is this code that caused the error.
When you say "cleanup" do you mean before submitting, or the resulting image? If before, can you maybe advise what you did? :-)
thanks, Ian
I never saw the code you used which was not working, so I was never able to test your case. @kiwi99 posted the result and the layout he used, so you should be able to diff his layout with what you were using if you are trying to do the same layout. That way you can see what he changed.
Post by: Data on Mon, 27 June 2016, 08:47:45
When I import DXF files from this tool into AutoCAD I always have to convert them to inches with the SCALE command, using a factor of 0.03937.BBS has a feature to automatically convert my drawings to inches from millimeters.
BigBlueSaw prefers imperial over metric. It's not a big deal.
Once you upload my drawings to BBS, there is a button to "convert from millimeters" or something like that. Simon added that feature specifically for us to be used with my tool.
All to say, you should not need to manually convert the drawings.
Yeah, I saw that. It's handy.
I'm working in inches for other reasons but BBS was a big one. I "borrowed" your drawings for the Cherry cutouts for my GH-122 case, by the way. :D Thanks for making this stuff available.
Post by: swill on Mon, 27 June 2016, 08:52:02
When I import DXF files from this tool into AutoCAD I always have to convert them to inches with the SCALE command, using a factor of 0.03937.BBS has a feature to automatically convert my drawings to inches from millimeters.
BigBlueSaw prefers imperial over metric. It's not a big deal.
Once you upload my drawings to BBS, there is a button to "convert from millimeters" or something like that. Simon added that feature specifically for us to be used with my tool.
All to say, you should not need to manually convert the drawings.
Yeah, I saw that. It's handy.
I'm working in inches for other reasons but BBS was a big one. I "borrowed" your drawings for the Cherry cutouts for my GH-122 case, by the way. :D Thanks for making this stuff available.
No worries. This is a resource for everyone, so no need to worry about that. Many people helped me with the cutouts to get to the point where most people are happy with them. I would have to check again, but I think my cutout is basically a bit of a combination of JDs cutout and the cherry spec. I am just glad people have found the tool useful regardless of how they use it.
Post by: Morituri on Wed, 29 June 2016, 16:04:32
I noted the other day though that when you have the code to add LEDs to your board, the tool uses keyswitch cutouts for them. Annoying because the traditional spot for LEDs is at the upper right corner where I want to drill a screw hole to support the plate in the case.
When I saw the problem, I removed the LEDs from the code and re-rendered. I'll be drilling holes in the case for them of course but they're way above the level of the plate.
Post by: Zustiur on Fri, 01 July 2016, 08:10:12
Possible Bug: The Stabilizer Type drop menu shows 'Remove Stabilizer' as an option, but I seem to be unable to select it.
My current design doesn't have any keys big enough to need stabilizers, so it's a non-issue for me personally.
Post by: bubblebobbler on Wed, 13 July 2016, 05:32:00
(http://puu.sh/q07XN/40d48148ed.jpg)
(membrane top, alps bottom)
ISO alps do not have a centered stem, unlike cherry (using my sample size of 2 that I've looked at anyhow)
(http://puu.sh/pXY9v/909b89debd.jpg)
shame I discovered it this way :(
Post by: swill on Wed, 13 July 2016, 08:09:55
http://i.imgur.com/ShzHp.jpgOh that sucks. :(Show Image(http://puu.sh/q07XN/40d48148ed.jpg)
(membrane top, alps bottom)
ISO alps do not have a centered stem, unlike cherry (using my sample size of 2 that I've looked at anyhow)Show Image(http://puu.sh/pXY9v/909b89debd.jpg)
shame I discovered it this way :(
Do you happen to have a caliper? If you do can you send me the details of where exactly the center stem is placed?
It does not appear to be stabilized either. Is that the case.
Sorry you learned about this problem like this. I have been crowd sourcing the details for the different switches and stabilizers and this is something I did not know about.
Thanks for sharing regardless.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: bubblebobbler on Wed, 13 July 2016, 09:34:25
re: calipers, I do not, but a person I'll be visiting this weekend (who is handier than I, and will hopefully be able to salvage my mistake with a dremel and some glue) probably does.
re: stabilizers, the black/grey cap is the most popular stabilisation method afaik. The other cap (that was pictured previously) has a stabiliser wire that can be put in or out of the keycap itself.
(http://puu.sh/q0iMZ/17c5f1cc0b.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/q0j2g/8b1dafb780.jpg)
I don't have a mutant thumb, blame perspective, and my apologies for these pics that look like I'm photographing bigfoot or something,
Post by: swill on Wed, 20 July 2016, 00:10:14
http://i.imgur.com/ShzHp.jpgShow Image(http://puu.sh/q07XN/40d48148ed.jpg)
(membrane top, alps bottom)
ISO alps do not have a centered stem, unlike cherry (using my sample size of 2 that I've looked at anyhow)Show Image(http://puu.sh/pXY9v/909b89debd.jpg)
shame I discovered it this way :(
So I know the switch is in the wrong place for this ISO keycap, but is the stabilizer in the right place given where the switch is for that cap? So if I am able to figure out how much to move the switch over and I move the stabilizer over the same amount, will that fix all issues with this keycap?
Also, it is hard to tell, but is the stem exactly in the middle of the widest part of the ISO keycap in both directions or is it more to the cutaway side?
If anyone has a caliper and has access to one of those ISO alps caps and can give me some measurements, I would really appreciate it...
Thanks builders... :P
Post by: swill on Wed, 20 July 2016, 00:36:05
I started working on an update to make the padding and holes layout for the Sandwich cases more flexible a while ago and I am just getting back to it.
To give you an idea, this is more along the lines of the type of input you would have.
[attachimg=1]
I would like feedback on the following:
- Would you like there to be the option to create a sandwich case without having to define holes? This could be interesting if you plan to glue the case together or something like that. Is that of interest?
- If holes will be defined, I am still forcing an even number of holes because I am forcing holes to be on at least opposing sides. You will still be able to have holes evenly spaced all around. However, that said, I am planning to let you specify 0 padding on two opposing sides and the screws would be evenly spaced on the opposing sides with padding specified. This means you will be able to define sandwich cases which are either open on the left and right or open on the top and bottom (with screws only on the non-open sides). I think this will be a nice feature for people who are prototyping because it will reduce the amount of material needed to layout and cut all of the pieces because the middle layers will just be straight pieces (probably with a couple rounded corners). Does this make sense? Any feedback on this?
- I am no longer enforcing the padding to be only outside the keycaps. This means that you will be able to make more compact cases. That being said, I am still going to be enforcing that the same amount is on the inside of the middle layers as is on the outside. This means that if you have a PCB it is likely not going to fit inside the remaining space anymore as you are now shrinking the available space inside the case by doing this. If you choose to do this, I warn you about this and you will have to confirm that you understand if you want to proceed. Does this make sense to you guys? Any feedback? The image below illustrates what the warning looks like.
[attachimg=2]
I think that is it for now. It is the middle of the night now and I can't think anymore. I really appreciate any feedback you guys have on these functional changes. They are relatively major changes, but everything that is currently possible will remain possible, but we will have a lot more options for how to layout a case with these.
Thanks again for all the support. Cheers...
Post by: vextanys on Wed, 20 July 2016, 03:46:46
Just used it to order at http://www.razorlab.co.uk/ and everything fit perfectly, though some editing to fit the template was required.
I needed to copy/paste from the generated file into the template in Inkscape. The overall positioning was lost, but position between keys was correct. I did have to change the line widths (to 0.01mm) and colour to blue (#0000FF) for http://www.razorlab.co.uk/ to create the layout.
Post by: swill on Wed, 20 July 2016, 08:39:45
This resource is awesome...Cool. Good to have more references that we know work.
Just used it to order at http://www.razorlab.co.uk/ and everything fit perfectly, though some editing to fit the template was required.
I needed to copy/paste from the generated file into the template in Inkscape. The overall positioning was lost, but position between keys was correct. I did have to change the line widths (to 0.01mm) and colour to blue (#0000FF) for http://www.razorlab.co.uk/ to create the layout.
BTW, you can change the line color in the advances section if you need to. :)
Post by: ideus on Sat, 23 July 2016, 16:51:53
Post by: swill on Sat, 23 July 2016, 20:46:05
Does someone know if a space bar bent wire may work with PCB mount stabilizers under a plate cut with this tool? I meant, the type of wire that has a bump in its middle section.I don't actually know the answer to this, but I assume it will if you can get the wire in once the pcb is in place. The cutout is such that you should be able to install it, so hopefully yes. I am also interested if people have feedback and have tried this.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 23 July 2016, 23:05:54
Does someone know if a space bar bent wire may work with PCB mount stabilizers under a plate cut with this tool? I meant, the type of wire that has a bump in its middle section.I don't actually know the answer to this, but I assume it will if you can get the wire in once the pcb is in place. The cutout is such that you should be able to install it, so hopefully yes. I am also interested if people have feedback and have tried this.
I'll let you know if I decided to buy some bumped wires for the only purpose to try them, I have some straight ones but I like the other type, they are suppose to be more rigid and balanced.
Post by: skullydazed on Sun, 24 July 2016, 07:39:27
Does someone know if a space bar bent wire may work with PCB mount stabilizers under a plate cut with this tool? I meant, the type of wire that has a bump in its middle section.
No, the bump will bump against the plate. You can manually edit the resulting design to add a cutout to accommodate the wire, but then your spacebar switch will not be snapped into the plate, but the PCB only.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 24 July 2016, 09:49:16
Does someone know if a space bar bent wire may work with PCB mount stabilizers under a plate cut with this tool? I meant, the type of wire that has a bump in its middle section.
No, the bump will bump against the plate. You can manually edit the resulting design to add a cutout to accommodate the wire, but then your spacebar switch will not be snapped into the plate, but the PCB only.
Thank you very much for the feedback, you'd save me some money and troubles, I will stick with the straight ones that is what I use with no issues whatsoever.
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 July 2016, 08:06:11
This update has been in the works for a long time. I finally got all the pieces together to the point where I am comfortable releasing it.
- Fixed the Alps 6.5u spacebar stabilizer cutout.
- Changed the 2u cherry based stabilizer cutouts to keep more material between the stab and switch so the stabilizers are better supported. Now the same code is used for 2u and spacebars.
[attach=1] - Changed Polygon Clipping libraries and completely rewrote that logic. Hopefully I have officially squashed the issue where 5% of the time a switch and stabilizer cutouts didn't union correctly. This rewrite gives me the flexibility to add more creative features (see below).
- Added the ability to override the default USB cutout details. Now you can move the cutout left and right across the top of the case. In addition to changing the location, you can now change the width of the USB cutout. Location EG: GH60 = -124.3 (mm)
- Added the ability for sandwich cases to be drawn without mount holes (in case you want to glue the case together or laminate the layers in some other way).
- Changed the padding from a generic Width and Height, to specific padding numbers for each side of the case. This has opened the door for a LOT of new case configurations. I will cover some of these details later.
- Related to the padding change, I have introduced the concept of a middle layer edge width. This allows you to specify exactly how much material you want around the edge of the middle layers. In combination with the padding change, this gives you a huge amount of flexibility when drawing cases. It also allows you to add large padding areas, like a wrist rest, and put additional components in that space (like a Raspberry Pi?).
- The combination of the above enables me to draw cases such that the middle layers can be cut using MUCH less material so prototypes can be cut for much cheaper.
This list of changes does not seem to be such a big deal, so I will illustrate some of the flexibility we now have with a few examples.
- Supporting the GH60 USB location (-124.3).
[attach=2] - Sandwich case with open top and bottom sides. Padding: top=-0.005, bottom=-0.005, left=6, right=6.
[attach=3] [attach=4] - Sandwich case with open left and right sides. Padding: top=6, bottom=6, left=-0.005, right=-0.005.
[attach=5] [attach=6] - Sandwich case with mount holes only on the side, but not open. Padding: top=3, bottom=3, left=6, right=6.
[attach=7] [attach=8] - Sandwich case with built in wrist rest. Padding: top=6, bottom=70, left=6, right=6.
[attach=9] [attach=10]
I think that is it for now. Let me know if you have questions.
Enjoy...
PS - I have a bit of a game changer which I am working on now. Stay tuned... :)
Post by: xondat on Fri, 29 July 2016, 11:13:47
Yes. This is what I, along with others, have been wanting for a while.
- Added the ability to override the default USB cutout details. Now you can move the cutout left and right across the top of the case. In addition to changing the location, you can now change the width of the USB cutout. Location EG: GH60 = -120.8 (mm)
Thanks for the update swill, I look forward to the secret project :)
Post by: MajorKoos on Fri, 29 July 2016, 12:57:44
Thank you - I can't wait to give it a try.
Post by: ideus on Fri, 29 July 2016, 13:16:37
---
Edit: This is the plate layout for my next building, a HHKB MX Clone with 6u space bar, GH-centered and the proper size modifiers.
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 29 July 2016, 13:31:34
I also see that it does not ignore decals.
If you are looking for extra features, having a hole placement table would be extremely useful. I need to add a few holes for LEDs as well as a few interior mounting holes. It would be great if I could specify a list of holes, sizes, X/Y coordinates, and if the hole is in the top/bottom/both plates.
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 29 July 2016, 14:47:01
One of the things I've added to the old engine is the ability to set these parameters in the dictionary section of the file. You can see an example here: https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder#keyboard-properties-example
Is that something you might add in the future? If so can we work out a common format so that it's easy for people to use either tool?
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 July 2016, 15:43:28
The reason I am doing the calculation from center (of the layout) to center (of the usb cutout), is because that is the only constant point that can be known by both my software and the user. For example, how does a PCB map to the key unit size? Does the edge of the PCB line up with the edge of the 'layout'? The answer is No, and because of that, it is not possible for both the user and the software to be able to enter a contract where the numbers presented are the same for both. That is why I chose to put 0 in the middle and have everything relative to that. By looking at a PCB schema, you can calculate the distance from the middle of the pcb to the center of the usb cutout. That will work for pretty much everyone, but there is no other measure that everyone will be able to be confident in. I struggled with this problem for a long time and that this problem is the reason this feature took so long for me to release. This is the best way I could think to solve this so I could be confident that the expected user experience was consistent with a implementable software solution. I agree, it is not perfect, but it is the best I could do to limit the number of mistakes made by people who didn't understand exactly how to do the calculation...
Right now I do not have a mechanism to handle decals and the like. With my new implementation I should be able to add the ability to let you specify additional drill holes and such (relative to the center of the layout). I can look into that in the near future...
Thanks for the feedback. I welcome all feedback and I strive to solve for everyone's needs (even though I realize that is not actually possible). :)
I played around with the USB gap, and it will take some getting used to. I wanted a 2U USB cutout based on my KLE board (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b9c772ee59df5af9cf1f28833b412e6f). To do that, I had to position the gap at -6.5U. Maybe the anchor should be at the leftmost key cutout?
I also see that it does not ignore decals.
If you are looking for extra features, having a hole placement table would be extremely useful. I need to add a few holes for LEDs as well as a few interior mounting holes. It would be great if I could specify a list of holes, sizes, X/Y coordinates, and if the hole is in the top/bottom/both plates.
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 July 2016, 15:44:56
Very cool stuff. Being able to set each side's padding is a great idea.
One of the things I've added to the old engine is the ability to set these parameters in the dictionary section of the file. You can see an example here: https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder#keyboard-properties-example
Is that something you might add in the future? If so can we work out a common format so that it's easy for people to use either tool?
I will be looking to solve something similar. I will review what you have done and we can go from there. :)
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 29 July 2016, 16:54:30
No measurements are done in units, they are done in millimeters. That may be a cause for confusion here.
The reason I am doing the calculation from center (of the layout) to center (of the usb cutout), is because that is the only constant point that can be known by both my software and the user. For example, how does a PCB map to the key unit size? Does the edge of the PCB line up with the edge of the 'layout'? The answer is No, and because of that, it is not possible for both the user and the software to be able to enter a contract where the numbers presented are the same for both. That is why I chose to put 0 in the middle and have everything relative to that. By looking at a PCB schema, you can calculate the distance from the middle of the pcb to the center of the usb cutout. That will work for pretty much everyone, but there is no other measure that everyone will be able to be confident in. I struggled with this problem for a long time and that this problem is the reason this feature took so long for me to release. This is the best way I could think to solve this so I could be confident that the expected user experience was consistent with a implementable software solution. I agree, it is not perfect, but it is the best I could do to limit the number of mistakes made by people who didn't understand exactly how to do the calculation...
Right now I do not have a mechanism to handle decals and the like. With my new implementation I should be able to add the ability to let you specify additional drill holes and such (relative to the center of the layout). I can look into that in the near future...
Thanks for the feedback. I welcome all feedback and I strive to solve for everyone's needs (even though I realize that is not actually possible). :)
I knew you were using mm. :P It was just easier for me to type 6.5U than to type 6.5U * 19.05mm/U. I used the decimal equivalents in the tool. :)
Regarding datums...
Consider that the center point of the layout or of the PCB isn't the most universal number. I have a layout with an even number of key columns and a PCB that doesn't have a physical center. (My PCB is two separate PCBs, and one PCB is longer.) The center point of the leftmost or rightmost switch should be the datum. That point is universal across all designs, crazy or not.
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 July 2016, 17:18:10
Also, consider something like the ergodox. The left most switch is not the top left switch in the layout. And what about layouts with rotated clusters. These are all supported by my tool, but would be a total nightmare to support if I did some relational positioning to some random switch in a layout. What if it's 2u and rotated 45 degrees. Way too many edge cases I don't want to have to worry about.
Here is the GH60 schematic for example:
[attachimg=1]
I understand that this may not be ideal for your use case, but you were able to figure it out, which is the point. It was impossible for me to make a perfect system, so I went with a system that had a sane default and anyone "could" work with given the parameters I set and the schematics they would be working with. This is not an easy problem and I have spent a lot of time trying to find a solution that worked for everyone (even if it was not perfectly convenient). After a lot of thought, this is what I decided to go with. It is better than not having the feature...
No measurements are done in units, they are done in millimeters. That may be a cause for confusion here.
The reason I am doing the calculation from center (of the layout) to center (of the usb cutout), is because that is the only constant point that can be known by both my software and the user. For example, how does a PCB map to the key unit size? Does the edge of the PCB line up with the edge of the 'layout'? The answer is No, and because of that, it is not possible for both the user and the software to be able to enter a contract where the numbers presented are the same for both. That is why I chose to put 0 in the middle and have everything relative to that. By looking at a PCB schema, you can calculate the distance from the middle of the pcb to the center of the usb cutout. That will work for pretty much everyone, but there is no other measure that everyone will be able to be confident in. I struggled with this problem for a long time and that this problem is the reason this feature took so long for me to release. This is the best way I could think to solve this so I could be confident that the expected user experience was consistent with a implementable software solution. I agree, it is not perfect, but it is the best I could do to limit the number of mistakes made by people who didn't understand exactly how to do the calculation...
Right now I do not have a mechanism to handle decals and the like. With my new implementation I should be able to add the ability to let you specify additional drill holes and such (relative to the center of the layout). I can look into that in the near future...
Thanks for the feedback. I welcome all feedback and I strive to solve for everyone's needs (even though I realize that is not actually possible). :)
I knew you were using mm.
Regarding datums...
Consider that the center point of the layout or of the PCB isn't the most universal number. I have a layout with an even number of key columns and a PCB that doesn't have a physical center. (My PCB is two separate PCBs, and one PCB is longer.) The center point of the leftmost or rightmost switch should be the datum. That point is universal across all designs, crazy or not.
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 29 July 2016, 18:14:45
But then the default value is wrong for pretty much everyone. I think the default location of the USB cutout should be the center if people don't override anything. Also, PCB schematics produced by pretty much everyone does not give relational measurements from the center of the switch to anything, so everyone would be flying blind.
Also, consider something like the ergodox. The left most switch is not the top left switch in the layout. And what about layouts with rotated clusters. These are all supported by my tool, but would be a total nightmare to support if I did some relational positioning to some random switch in a layout. What if it's 2u and rotated 45 degrees. Way too many edge cases I don't want to have to worry about.
Here is the GH60 schematic for example:
(Attachment Link)
I understand that this may not be ideal for your use case, but you were able to figure it out, which is the point. It was impossible for me to make a perfect system, so I went with a system that had a sane default and anyone "could" work with given the parameters I set and the schematics they would be working with. This is not an easy problem and I have spent a lot of time trying to find a solution that worked for everyone (even if it was not perfectly convenient). After a lot of thought, this is what I decided to go with. It is better than not having the feature...
I agree with you that the default should be in the center when no inputs are given. Custom offsets are where we disagree.
Considering your example, how do I know that the GH60 sits centered in the case? What tells me that the board doesn't have any overhang on the left or right? I could assume that the board is center and take measurements, but that could get me into trouble. True, I cannot use that drawing you gave me to determine the exact X coordinate, but having access to the gerbers or a physical board to measure would correct that.
Maybe this is coming from my background as a PCB designer. If I am laying out a board, I want a fixed point on the board to be the origin, and I want to be able to translate that across the design to the enclosure. It is extremely convenient if I can use my software measuring tool to measure the distance between a fixed point and the USB connector. If it is an arbitrary point such as the plate center, I am not sure if I would be able to accurately judge that.
Post by: xondat on Fri, 29 July 2016, 18:46:49
Hey swill, do you think the switch types I made above could ever be added? The 1st is t:3, the 2nd is featured among LZ board, and the 3rd is like the Whitefox (left to right).
Both these cutouts allow switch top removable, but also cut down on the complexity of allowing the design. I also personally think they look a lot cleaner.
Post by: swill on Fri, 29 July 2016, 20:17:26
I really don't see any other way this can be done so that any random Joe without any knowledge of PCB design is able to figure out where to put the cutout. They will either be working off a schematic or have a PCB in his hand that they can measure. That is the best I can do...
But then the default value is wrong for pretty much everyone. I think the default location of the USB cutout should be the center if people don't override anything. Also, PCB schematics produced by pretty much everyone does not give relational measurements from the center of the switch to anything, so everyone would be flying blind.
Also, consider something like the ergodox. The left most switch is not the top left switch in the layout. And what about layouts with rotated clusters. These are all supported by my tool, but would be a total nightmare to support if I did some relational positioning to some random switch in a layout. What if it's 2u and rotated 45 degrees. Way too many edge cases I don't want to have to worry about.
Here is the GH60 schematic for example:
(Attachment Link)
I understand that this may not be ideal for your use case, but you were able to figure it out, which is the point. It was impossible for me to make a perfect system, so I went with a system that had a sane default and anyone "could" work with given the parameters I set and the schematics they would be working with. This is not an easy problem and I have spent a lot of time trying to find a solution that worked for everyone (even if it was not perfectly convenient). After a lot of thought, this is what I decided to go with. It is better than not having the feature...
I agree with you that the default should be in the center when no inputs are given. Custom offsets are where we disagree.
Considering your example, how do I know that the GH60 sits centered in the case? What tells me that the board doesn't have any overhang on the left or right? I could assume that the board is center and take measurements, but that could get me into trouble. True, I cannot use that drawing you gave me to determine the exact X coordinate, but having access to the gerbers or a physical board to measure would correct that.
Maybe this is coming from my background as a PCB designer. If I am laying out a board, I want a fixed point on the board to be the origin, and I want to be able to translate that across the design to the enclosure. It is extremely convenient if I can use my software measuring tool to measure the distance between a fixed point and the USB connector. If it is an arbitrary point such as the plate center, I am not sure if I would be able to accurately judge that.
Post by: skullydazed on Fri, 29 July 2016, 23:00:54
Very cool stuff. Being able to set each side's padding is a great idea.
One of the things I've added to the old engine is the ability to set these parameters in the dictionary section of the file. You can see an example here: https://github.com/skullydazed/kb_builder#keyboard-properties-example
Is that something you might add in the future? If so can we work out a common format so that it's easy for people to use either tool?
I will be looking to solve something similar. I will review what you have done and we can go from there. :)
Awesome! :thumb: Don't be afraid to suggest changes, I know in some places (usb connector placement) I've made decisions that you'll disagree with. (I'm honestly thinking about revisiting that one based on your discussion with IBNobody.)
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 15:06:33
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/1OiCmjG.png)
Hey swill, do you think the switch types I made above could ever be added? The 1st is t:3, the 2nd is featured among LZ board, and the 3rd is like the Whitefox (left to right).
Both these cutouts allow switch top removable, but also cut down on the complexity of allowing the design. I also personally think they look a lot cleaner.
Yes, I can add the whitefox cutout. I already support both the left and center cutouts.
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 15:27:11
I think I have probably made myself pretty clear as to why I choose to use the center as my default and the default point with which to orient the USB cutout. I realize now that I had basically assumed that people would not use different amounts of padding on the left and right sides of the board (something that was not possible until this release). Because of that, the padding CAN currently have an affect on the location of the USB cutout relative to the PCB. This is something that I was trying to avoid by doing the calculations this way.
For example, the center of the GH60 USB cutout is 124.3mm left of center. If the padding on the left and right are both X, then it doesn't matter what X is, -124.3 will always work. However, if you have the padding on the left as X and the padding on the right as X+20, now the USB cutout will currently be centered in the center of the case, not the center of the key layout. So you now have to adapt for that and put the USB cutout at -134.3mm.
This is something I wanted to avoid because I wanted to be able to essentially create a library or knowledge base of the common USB cutout locations which would work regardless of the padding added to both sides. I also wanted this number to be easily deduced from the schematics because that is the only thing 99% of the people will have access to.
Because of this, I am considering changing the calculation to be based on the center of the key layout and not the case layout. This way the padding added on any side will be essentially irrelevant to the calculation and you will always be able to do the calculation based on the schematic numbers. This makes sharing details easier and it makes it easier for you to change your mind about the padding and not have to do any math.
One of the main reasons I am thinking about this now is because I am considering adding the ability to specify a list of holes (and potentially polygons) which could be added to any layer of the case. However, I suspect that calculating the placement of the holes is going to be annoying and you won't want to have to recalculate them once you do it once. So I think it makes sense for these holes and/or polygons be relative to the center of the key layout. This means that values can be calculated once and then regardless of the padding, kerf or whatever, they will be consistently drawn in the same place for a similar layout. This reduces the number of errors people will make and it makes it much easier for people to share hole locations which they have tested and are confident in.
What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
Cheers...
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 30 July 2016, 16:25:44
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:02:23
Just to check, would the center of the key layout be calculated based on the the edge of the caps or the switch cutouts? I'm thinking of a 60% where there's a 1u on the left but possibly the smallest key on the right would be a 1.5u mod - if you go on the cutouts center would be slightly left...
The center will be calculated based on the edges of the keycaps because that is the true width. The size of the keys on either the left or the right should not change the calculated center. Does that answer your question?
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:07:04
Just to check, would the center of the key layout be calculated based on the the edge of the caps or the switch cutouts? I'm thinking of a 60% where there's a 1u on the left but possibly the smallest key on the right would be a 1.5u mod - if you go on the cutouts center would be slightly left...
The center will be calculated based on the edges of the keycaps because that is the true width. The size of the keys on either the left or the right should not change the calculated center. Does that answer your question?
Yes, and it's the good answer :thumb:
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 30 July 2016, 18:24:05
What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
This seems well thought-out to me and I'm all for it. :thumb:
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 18:43:03
Had a question for you. The top plate in your version is based on the size of the keycaps? So you would cut out 19.05mm for each 1u of keycap?What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
This seems well thought-out to me and I'm all for it. :thumb:
Post by: ideus on Sat, 30 July 2016, 18:58:49
Post by: xondat on Sat, 30 July 2016, 20:33:06
Oh so the Alps/MX allows MX switch top removal?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/1OiCmjG.png)
Hey swill, do you think the switch types I made above could ever be added? The 1st is t:3, the 2nd is featured among LZ board, and the 3rd is like the Whitefox (left to right).
Both these cutouts allow switch top removable, but also cut down on the complexity of allowing the design. I also personally think they look a lot cleaner.
Yes, I can add the whitefox cutout. I already support both the left and center cutouts.
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 21:22:34
Yes they do...Oh so the Alps/MX allows MX switch top removal?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/1OiCmjG.png)
Hey swill, do you think the switch types I made above could ever be added? The 1st is t:3, the 2nd is featured among LZ board, and the 3rd is like the Whitefox (left to right).
Both these cutouts allow switch top removable, but also cut down on the complexity of allowing the design. I also personally think they look a lot cleaner.
Yes, I can add the whitefox cutout. I already support both the left and center cutouts.
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 21:25:53
I have a question: Is the MX+Alps cut option any different on holding MX Switches properly? Or should I use the MX only if I want them to be kept in place properly? I'd use the first if there is no significant difference because it looks to me cleaner and easier to cut.
Post by: swill on Sat, 30 July 2016, 22:40:58
I have rolled out the changes discussed in the last few posts. Now the USB cutout defaults to the center of the layout of the keys (not the case including padding). The padding no longer affects the calculations of where the USB should go. This means that you can now calculate the location of the USB cutout based on a PCB schematic and changing the padding around the case in any way will not affect those calculations. This means that for any sandwich case, the location of -124.3mm will always work for a GH60.
Hope this makes sense to everyone now. I will likely be adding more features such as free form holes and such relative to this center point in the middle of the layout. Let me know if you have questions or concerns...
Post by: skullydazed on Sun, 31 July 2016, 01:04:15
Had a question for you. The top plate in your version is based on the size of the keycaps? So you would cut out 19.05mm for each 1u of keycap?What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
This seems well thought-out to me and I'm all for it. :thumb:
That is correct. I use self.u1 to determine that size.
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 08:08:02
OK perfect. That was my plan as well. :)Had a question for you. The top plate in your version is based on the size of the keycaps? So you would cut out 19.05mm for each 1u of keycap?What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
This seems well thought-out to me and I'm all for it. :thumb:
That is correct. I use self.u1 to determine that size.
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 14:52:14
This is what I am thinking for adding custom cutouts to the builder. What are your thoughts on this? Any other type of preset cutout you want me to try to support?
Does the UI make sense? Do you think the average person will be able to use it?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: muon on Sun, 31 July 2016, 15:19:32
I think it won't be too intuitive to the average user, but the average user probably won't have much use for custom cutouts in any case. Should be good as-is.
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 15:29:08
Looks fantastic to me, great work :thumb:
I think it won't be too intuitive to the average user, but the average user probably won't have much use for custom cutouts in any case. Should be good as-is.
Ya, that screenshot would be after they already added 3 polygon sets, so they would not get all that initially. Each time they "Add", they will be presented with configuration details for what they are adding, so it should build on itself pretty well and it should not be information overload like that screenshot.
I may pick an example like the reset cutout on the bottom of a 60% layout as an example to help people understand what they are doing. We will see how easily I can guide people.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 31 July 2016, 18:29:42
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 19:25:54
I'll post feedback after I have the chance to use it.Haha. That kind of defeats the purpose of feedback at this point. If I build it like this, I won't want to rebuild it if you don't like it. :)
Anything you notice that you would change? It let's you build any number of polygons and streamlines things like drawing multiple of the same size hole.
Post by: skullydazed on Sun, 31 July 2016, 20:44:09
Each layer is starting to take on a lot of properties. What if you grouped all of those together per layer? Basically you'd add a list of layers to the current UI and move some of the settings there- Layer type (switch, top, open, etc,) screw hole size, oversize width (for GON-style cases,) and a list of shapes/polygons to place. Advantages include the ability to add/remove layers, a cleaner/more scalable UI, and making it extremely clear to users which layer a particular polygon is associated with. Plus, it reduces the number of drop-down boxes you need, which is always a plus. (I have a thousand other reasons, like enabling live previews so you can see how a setting will affect your particular design, but I won't get into those for sake of not overloading you with info. :) )
The format you POST (and the format of the raw code that gets pasted) wouldn't have to change, you'd just be changing how it's specified in the UI.
I would even suggest simplifying this interface further and removing the ability to specify multiple coordinates. Novice users will be less confused, and experienced users can fall back on the raw code. I think enabling more novice users to use the tool is a good thing, as all expert users were novices once upon a time. Right now it's a sea of dropdown and text input boxes that are daunting. A lot of that could be inferred through contextual clues, so why not arrange the UI to do so?
Post by: IBNobody on Sun, 31 July 2016, 21:15:16
One of the main reasons I am thinking about this now is because I am considering adding the ability to specify a list of holes (and potentially polygons) which could be added to any layer of the case. However, I suspect that calculating the placement of the holes is going to be annoying and you won't want to have to recalculate them once you do it once. So I think it makes sense for these holes and/or polygons be relative to the center of the key layout. This means that values can be calculated once and then regardless of the padding, kerf or whatever, they will be consistently drawn in the same place for a similar layout. This reduces the number of errors people will make and it makes it much easier for people to share hole locations which they have tested and are confident in.
What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
Cheers...
In thinking about this problem, I have a solution for it and the USB center point debate we were having. Hole positioning is even more critical to me than USB slots. With the USB port, I could pad the slot with enough padding to make sure that a misplaced USB slot actually lined up with the connector. I cannot do that with screw holes that traverse the PCB. I need a good reference point that I can compare the output of your tool to the holes I have added to the PCB I am laying out.
Solution: Give more data!
Can you also output a text based placement report that gave XY positions of all switches/holes/gaps, and list positions relative to the keymap center, relative to the keymap upper left, and relative to the plate upper left? You might also want to output where your centerpoint is relative to the keymap upper left.
The format doesn't need to be fancy; plain text or CSV works.
Essentially, this makes my life so much easier. I would no longer need to open up the SVG file in Adobe Illustrator to check hole-to-switch-center measurements and the like.
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 21:57:24
One of the main reasons I am thinking about this now is because I am considering adding the ability to specify a list of holes (and potentially polygons) which could be added to any layer of the case. However, I suspect that calculating the placement of the holes is going to be annoying and you won't want to have to recalculate them once you do it once. So I think it makes sense for these holes and/or polygons be relative to the center of the key layout. This means that values can be calculated once and then regardless of the padding, kerf or whatever, they will be consistently drawn in the same place for a similar layout. This reduces the number of errors people will make and it makes it much easier for people to share hole locations which they have tested and are confident in.
What do you guys think? I understand that everyone is going to have an opinion and that we may not all agree, but getting some other people's perspective on this would be helpful.
Cheers...
In thinking about this problem, I have a solution for it and the USB center point debate we were having. Hole positioning is even more critical to me than USB slots. With the USB port, I could pad the slot with enough padding to make sure that a misplaced USB slot actually lined up with the connector. I cannot do that with screw holes that traverse the PCB. I need a good reference point that I can compare the output of your tool to the holes I have added to the PCB I am laying out.
Solution: Give more data!
Can you also output a text based placement report that gave XY positions of all switches/holes/gaps, and list positions relative to the keymap center, relative to the keymap upper left, and relative to the plate upper left? You might also want to output where your centerpoint is relative to the keymap upper left.
The format doesn't need to be fancy; plain text or CSV works.
Essentially, this makes my life so much easier. I would no longer need to open up the SVG file in Adobe Illustrator to check hole-to-switch-center measurements and the like.
Yes, I can give you more data. I would essentially give you the coordinates for the 4 corners of the key layout based on the center of the key layout (0, 0).
So for a 60% board, the points would be:
Code: [Select]
Center: (0, 0)
Top Left: (-142.875, -47.625)
Top Right: (142.875, -47.625)
Bottom Left: (-142.875, 47.625)
Bottom Right: (142.875, 47.625)
I already track the bounds of the key layout (as well as every key for that matter), so this would be very easy for me to give you. This would let you draw once and then calculate based on that where you want to put other cutouts (like the USB cutout).
Would that work for you?
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 22:27:18
That UI makes sense to me, and I would be happy to see that used. However, I think a more holistic view of the tools suggests a different overall UI for this feature. (If this is too much work to rearchitect in this way consider the suggestion withdrawn, but this is what I currently view as the ideal.)
Each layer is starting to take on a lot of properties. What if you grouped all of those together per layer? Basically you'd add a list of layers to the current UI and move some of the settings there- Layer type (switch, top, open, etc,) screw hole size, oversize width (for GON-style cases,) and a list of shapes/polygons to place. Advantages include the ability to add/remove layers, a cleaner/more scalable UI, and making it extremely clear to users which layer a particular polygon is associated with. Plus, it reduces the number of drop-down boxes you need, which is always a plus. (I have a thousand other reasons, like enabling live previews so you can see how a setting will affect your particular design, but I won't get into those for sake of not overloading you with info. :) )
The format you POST (and the format of the raw code that gets pasted) wouldn't have to change, you'd just be changing how it's specified in the UI.
I would even suggest simplifying this interface further and removing the ability to specify multiple coordinates. Novice users will be less confused, and experienced users can fall back on the raw code. I think enabling more novice users to use the tool is a good thing, as all expert users were novices once upon a time. Right now it's a sea of dropdown and text input boxes that are daunting. A lot of that could be inferred through contextual clues, so why not arrange the UI to do so?
So I don't really know if I want to go down this route. First of all, I don't plan to offer raw input. I feel like it will be too complicated for 95% of the users and the 5% who MAY use it, shouldn't need to because the UI gives all the same functionality, but will less places for the person to make mistakes.
So just to be clear. The user does not see all of that craziness right away. That is an example after a user has built out a bunch of elements. It won't be that crazy when a user tries to use it.
For example, this is how it would look when a user first sees it.
[attachimg=1]
Then when the user turns it on, they get the following options.
[attachimg=2]
From there, they can start adding different types of polygons to different layers as they see fit until they get to something like what I posted originally...
I don't like the idea of grouping it based on layers because I don't want to treat a layer special at all. I want the exact same logic to apply to all functionality exactly the same way and the cutouts just so happen to go on one or more layers. This simplifies the development immensely. Adding a new polygon for example, is as simple as adding the functionality and it will automatically apply to all possible layers. Adding a new layer is as simple as adding the layer type and all existing polygons will already be wired up to work with it. I want to make the implementation as flexible as possible, while avoiding developing layer specific logic. By doing layer specific logic (even if it is just in the UI), it adds a lot of unneeded complexity to the design (IMO).
If I do handle multiple points, I will probably want to change it from [[x1, y1], [x2, y2], ...] to just [x1, y1], [x2, y2], .... People don't need to know that is an array. I can stick the brackets around it before submit to validate it is properly formatted JSON. That will likely make it less confusing. Because you do have to add a line item for each type of shape you want to add, I do like having the ability to add more than one in a single row. So if you only need to draw 5 extra holes with 3mm diameter, they can all be added with a single line item.
I don't expect more than 10-15% of people will actually want to draw extra polygons and the ones that will want to will want as much control as I can give them. I think this starts small and builds on itself pretty well so people can build most of the functionality they would want with it...
Oh, and live preview is not going to happen with my engine. :) Everything is evaluated on the server side, so that is just not very feasible.
Also, I don't see the point in not drawing layers. Yes, if I was still using FreeCAD and it took 45 seconds to draw, it would make sense. But even the most complex layouts take less than 10 seconds to draw with my new implementation.
Don't take this the wrong way. I appreciate the feedback and the work you have done on the old builder, but I am trying to offer as many features and as much flexibility as I can without really changing the complexity of the application from an implementation perspective. I think the way I have it currently designed lets me do that...
PS - I could make the Layers dropdown a multiselect so you can pick which layers you want a specific cutout to be drawn on. I think that is probably a more likely use case. I originally added the concept of All, but with a multiselect it could make it even more flexible.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 31 July 2016, 22:31:33
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 22:40:03
I'd prefer to have something like the keyboard layout editor GUI to create and embed the polygons, instead of capturing the data into boxes. Each polygon may have its own properties, some inherited by its type and other that may be user definable. Does that sound too crazy?
I don't really know what you mean when you say "like the keyboard layout editor". Which aspects of KLE do you like? Maybe give me some screenshots...
The reason for the text boxes is to be able to guide the user so they know what is needed for a specific type of polygon. For example, a Rounded Rectangle will require a width, height and a radius and the points specified will be the center point of each occurrence.
Obviously, the different polygons will have different requirements, so if you select a different polygon, then different boxes will appear for you to fill in.
I don't know how a "user defined" type would work. There is the Custom Cutout, where you can specify a path of a polygon and that path is cut (so you could do triangle or whatever)...
I feel like I am missing your point though. Can you give me some more details as to what you mean?
Post by: IBNobody on Sun, 31 July 2016, 22:45:13
Yes, I can give you more data. I would essentially give you the coordinates for the 4 corners of the key layout based on the center of the key layout (0, 0).
So for a 60% board, the points would be:Code: [Select]Center: (0, 0)
Top Left: (-142.875, -47.625)
Top Right: (142.875, -47.625)
Bottom Left: (-142.875, 47.625)
Bottom Right: (142.875, 47.625)
I already track the bounds of the key layout (as well as every key for that matter), so this would be very easy for me to give you. This would let you draw once and then calculate based on that where you want to put other cutouts (like the USB cutout).
Would that work for you?
Can you throw in switch spacing (19.05mm/750mil/0.75") and switch to keymap edge (which should be 19.05mm/2 or 375 mil, right?). I know that is what you use from posts here but it may not be conveyed in the tool, and someone might just assume a 19mm spacing thinking that 1U=19mm.
Going by these numbers and my numbers for spacing, my upper left switch would be centered at (-133.35,-38.1), correct? If so... :thumb: But if you can calculate this for me already, all the better.
You might also want to throw in unit conversion to mils or inches. Even though Cherry gives measurements in mm, they use mil spacing.
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 23:18:35
Yes, I can give you more data. I would essentially give you the coordinates for the 4 corners of the key layout based on the center of the key layout (0, 0).
So for a 60% board, the points would be:Code: [Select]Center: (0, 0)
Top Left: (-142.875, -47.625)
Top Right: (142.875, -47.625)
Bottom Left: (-142.875, 47.625)
Bottom Right: (142.875, 47.625)
I already track the bounds of the key layout (as well as every key for that matter), so this would be very easy for me to give you. This would let you draw once and then calculate based on that where you want to put other cutouts (like the USB cutout).
Would that work for you?
Can you throw in switch spacing (19.05mm/750mil/0.75") and switch to keymap edge (which should be 19.05mm/2 or 375 mil, right?). I know that is what you use from posts here but it may not be conveyed in the tool, and someone might just assume a 19mm spacing thinking that 1U=19mm.
Going by these numbers and my numbers for spacing, my upper left switch would be centered at (-133.35,-38.1), correct? If so... :thumb: But if you can calculate this for me already, all the better.
You might also want to throw in unit conversion to mils or inches. Even though Cherry gives measurements in mm, they use mil spacing.
Yes, I can give you the 1u spacing (of 19.05mm) as well. Yes, the top left switch would be centered at (-133.35,-38.1), assuming it is a 1u switch. I would rather not confuse things by putting any other units other than mm in the UI in order to keep things clear that I expect input in mm. I have had a lot of requests by people to add Inches as an acceptable input unit. I think I am probably reasonably close to being able to offer Inches as well as an input type, but I have not planned that work yet. It gets a bit complicated because I will have to handle all of the 'default' values differently if I add the ability to change unit types. I essentially have to treat it like a multilingual site, so if units is mm then for example the USB cutout is 10mm, but if it is inches, I have to change the tooltip and help overlay details, etc, on the fly to the equivalent in inches. There are a bunch of annoying things like that which I have not thought through. It is probably something I will do at some point, but I have not looked at those details yet...
Post by: IBNobody on Sun, 31 July 2016, 23:40:34
Post by: swill on Sun, 31 July 2016, 23:48:25
Ok. Thank you. When you get your hole UI ready for beta, I will give it a go. I have a plate layout ready for some holes.
Fair enough. Sounds good... BTW, nothing goes into beta here. Either I release it or I don't. :P
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 01 August 2016, 01:25:59
So I don't really know if I want to go down this route. First of all, I don't plan to offer raw input. I feel like it will be too complicated for 95% of the users and the 5% who MAY use it, shouldn't need to because the UI gives all the same functionality, but will less places for the person to make mistakes.
I hope you'll reconsider that. I think there's a lot of value in one person giving another person raw code for an entire keyboard, not just a layout. If you support specifying polygons in the raw code you can also build a knowledge base of common cutout locations to support specific layouts or boards. This is similar to a desire you expressed about USB cutout locations:
This is something I wanted to avoid because I wanted to be able to essentially create a library or knowledge base of the common USB cutout locations which would work regardless of the padding added to both sides. I also wanted this number to be easily deduced from the schematics because that is the only thing 99% of the people will have access to.
I don't like the idea of grouping it based on layers because I don't want to treat a layer special at all. I want the exact same logic to apply to all functionality exactly the same way and the cutouts just so happen to go on one or more layers. This simplifies the development immensely. Adding a new polygon for example, is as simple as adding the functionality and it will automatically apply to all possible layers. Adding a new layer is as simple as adding the layer type and all existing polygons will already be wired up to work with it. I want to make the implementation as flexible as possible, while avoiding developing layer specific logic. By doing layer specific logic (even if it is just in the UI), it adds a lot of unneeded complexity to the design (IMO).
I'm not suggesting anything on the backend change. I'm also not suggesting that there be layer specific logic. In fact, if you want to always generate the same set of layers that's compatible with my core argument. :)
I am suggesting that the existing functionality that you're already proposing could be exposed differently, and in a way that increases flexibility down the road. For example, how long until you decide that you want to have different sized screw holes for different layers? (Say you want to thread the bottom plate screw holes and use larger holes on the rest of the plates.) How long until you support GON-style oversized middles (and if you add that feature, why would it be limited to one layer)? How long until you support different screw hole shapes for particular layers? (Say, a hex shape for embedding a nut within a layer.)
Also, as a counterpoint, you are ALREADY doing layer specific logic in the way I suggest. Each new polygon you add has a drop-down for selecting the layer. I'm suggesting that instead of having that dropdown you have a list of layers, and each entry in that list has UI elements for adding polygons. Nothing about the backend implementation changes, just the way in which the UI collects information from the user.
I don't expect more than 10-15% of people will actually want to draw extra polygons and the ones that will want to will want as much control as I can give them. I think this starts small and builds on itself pretty well so people can build most of the functionality they would want with it...
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you "nerf" anything, just that you expose the functionality in a way that makes the easy things easy, and the hard things possible.
Oh, and live preview is not going to happen with my engine. :) Everything is evaluated on the server side, so that is just not very feasible.
Never say never. ;) You'd be surprised at the things you can do to make that sorta thing feel live without actually being live.
Also, I don't see the point in not drawing layers. Yes, if I was still using FreeCAD and it took 45 seconds to draw, it would make sense. But even the most complex layouts take less than 10 seconds to draw with my new implementation.
And you say that live preview will not happen. :p
Don't take this the wrong way. I appreciate the feedback and the work you have done on the old builder, but I am trying to offer as many features and as much flexibility as I can without really changing the complexity of the application from an implementation perspective. I think the way I have it currently designed lets me do that...
At the end of the day you have to be happy with your work. Don't worry about making me happy, I'll have comments both positive and not so positive no matter which direction you pick. :) I just hope that I can help make your final implementation stronger, either through suggesting good ideas or helping you to articulate why your ideas are the right ones.
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 01 August 2016, 01:28:19
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 August 2016, 07:42:24
So lets take an example. I want to create 2 more holes. One is a 2mm hole in the open and closed layers and the other is a 3mm hole in the switch and top layers.
In both your idea and my original idea, you would have to create 4 distinct line items. The exact same details for the 2mm hole would have to be repeated in two layers. The exact same details for the 3mm hole would have to be repeated on two different layers.
Now lets say you change your mind and you want to move the 2mm hole a couple mm one way. Now you have to figure out which layers it is on and then update each layer independently. This just feels wrong to me...
So here is a new proposal. Instead of picking the layer (or having the layer sections pre-populated), you pick which layer(s) you want the cutouts in using a multiselect. This way, if a specific cutout is expected to be on more than one layer, you can handle that cutout as a single item.
This would reduce the 4 line items in the example above to 2 line items. If you wanted to move the 2mm hole, you would only have to move it once and it would be moved on all associated layers.
The UI flow would look more like this with this idea...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 01 August 2016, 10:19:35
The case would need corner cutouts if folding four sides (think of a + shape).
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 August 2016, 11:29:06
Once the dust settles with the hole additions, you might want to consider adding another case design. I plan on bending the edges of my plate downward with a finger brake. Think of it as the Preonic Case (http://olkb.com/preonic/formed-top) with bends on two or four sides.
The case would need corner cutouts if folding four sides (think of a + shape).
Yes, this will be possible with the addition of the polygons which skullydazed and I have been discussing. I would also like to add both 'Cut' polygons and 'Keep' polygons. A Cut polygon would be removed from a plate. A Keep polygon would be added to the plate.
The order of operations would be:
- Union standard cut polygons (switches, holes, usb cutout, middle layers, etc...)
- Difference standard cut polygons from standard keep polygons (remove the cut polygons from the plate)
- Union custom keep polygons with resulting difference (merge any overlapping custom keep polygons with the resulting standard keep polygons)
- Difference custom cut polygons from the resulting union (remove the custom cut polygons from the resulting custom keep + standard keep polygons)
- Draw final results...
This would allow you to cutaway and edge of a plate, but then modify the middle layers so they still have material inside the case which would follow the cutaway contour. We are getting into much more complicated scenarios, but there will be some very cool things we will be able to do with this...
Post by: bubblebobbler on Sat, 06 August 2016, 08:36:58
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
Post by: swill on Sat, 06 August 2016, 08:59:20
http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: bubblebobbler on Sun, 07 August 2016, 14:04:16
http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
Post by: swill on Sun, 07 August 2016, 14:06:07
Ya. I need to adjust those widths. What width keys are you having problems with?http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
Post by: bubblebobbler on Sun, 07 August 2016, 14:20:28
Ya. I need to adjust those widths. What width keys are you having problems with?http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
Post by: emdude on Sun, 07 August 2016, 15:05:27
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
No need to remove the left screw cutout, just shorten the length.
@swill, I recommend that, for Alps plates, the length of the cutout be shortened as in the screenshot below. I also recommend that the center screw cutout be removed as well; you cannot place a screw there when the switches are mounted anyway.
(http://i.imgur.com/QCpbHq7.png)
Not sure how the radius of the screw cutout ended up being 2.5005, oh well.
Post by: skullydazed on Sun, 07 August 2016, 21:30:48
@skullydazed I still don't like the idea of creating different sections for each layer because I feel like I am limiting my flexibility that way. If I do any features that are expected to span layers, that model makes things really hard.
I disagree with it limiting your flexibility, in my mind it's increasing flexibility. However, it's your software and I'm not trying to push that point very hard. :)
So lets take an example. I want to create 2 more holes. One is a 2mm hole in the open and closed layers and the other is a 3mm hole in the switch and top layers.
In both your idea and my original idea, you would have to create 4 distinct line items. The exact same details for the 2mm hole would have to be repeated in two layers. The exact same details for the 3mm hole would have to be repeated on two different layers.
Now lets say you change your mind and you want to move the 2mm hole a couple mm one way. Now you have to figure out which layers it is on and then update each layer independently. This just feels wrong to me...
I see where you're coming from, but by the same token it's harder for a naive user to understand what is going on when you add so many parameters. There's nothing wrong with targeting advanced users, but I like to speak up for the naive users as well.
So here is a new proposal. Instead of picking the layer (or having the layer sections pre-populated), you pick which layer(s) you want the cutouts in using a multiselect. This way, if a specific cutout is expected to be on more than one layer, you can handle that cutout as a single item.
This would reduce the 4 line items in the example above to 2 line items. If you wanted to move the 2mm hole, you would only have to move it once and it would be moved on all associated layers.
This seems like a reasonable compromise, although I'll note that it makes it harder to move one hole without moving the other. When you enumerate them all you'll probably keep "like holes" together, making it easy to change in a few places. When I have 2 holes but want to move only one it means creating another item and copying settings over. To borrow your expression from earlier, "this just feels wrong to me."
I honestly don't know which situation (moving a hole on multiple layers vs moving a hole in one but not another) is more likely, and without any data or user testing we'll likely never know (like we have the resources for that. :p ) I also wonder if there isn't a way to make neither of us feel like something is wrong. Variables would be one way to handle that, but the added complexity may just be too much for a project like this. In the end I think you should go with whichever option leaves you feeling better.
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 08 August 2016, 10:05:24
I agree with having a layer selection that let me toggle which layers a hole is on.
Usability-wise, I can see that the biggest annoyance for this would be an extra step in creating copies of the hole. If I have 10 holes that pierce through the top, bottom, and middle and I have to select each layer for each hole, it would take some time. This is especially true if I wanted to recreate a case pattern on another computer. There should be a way to clone holes and also to save progress. (Or for us power users, tell us how to generate raw code.)
To answer the question of likely usage... If I have holes in the top and bottom and they line up, I will rarely move one without the other. I can't think of a case other than a copypaste error correction where I would ever have two aligned holes that I would want to split apart.
How is the progress coming?
Post by: swill on Mon, 08 August 2016, 10:27:10
To weigh in on the hole discussion...
I agree with having a layer selection that let me toggle which layers a hole is on.
Usability-wise, I can see that the biggest annoyance for this would be an extra step in creating copies of the hole. If I have 10 holes that pierce through the top, bottom, and middle and I have to select each layer for each hole, it would take some time. This is especially true if I wanted to recreate a case pattern on another computer. There should be a way to clone holes and also to save progress. (Or for us power users, tell us how to generate raw code.)
To answer the question of likely usage... If I have holes in the top and bottom and they line up, I will rarely move one without the other. I can't think of a case other than a copypaste error correction where I would ever have two aligned holes that I would want to split apart.
How is the progress coming?
This is why I will go with a multiselect, so you can pick which layers the cutouts go on and if you change your mind and remove a layer or add a layer, you just change the multiselect and don't have to mess with the hole details.
I have been working on a different feature, so I have not had a chance to look at this yet. The other feature is an integration with lasergist.com (link (http://lasergist.com/)) so you can order your case with a single click (well not quite, you need to specify what you want) from my UI. They offer free worldwide shipping, and have very competitive prices, so this should be a pretty sweet integration for you guys. I just found out that their team has some scheduled holiday in the middle of this month to get some much deserved R&R, so we will wait to launch the integration until the end of the month.
I will start looking at fixing the alps stabilizer issue, the poker plate size, adding a top plate and adding the additional UI for adding polygons soon. Keep in mind, I only get an hour or two to do this at night after I get my family to bed, so I don't have a huge amount of time to pump out features. I have been busting out quite a bit recently, but I have to be careful not to get too run down or I will be useless to everyone. :) I do work a full time job, have my own company on the side and do this in my "spare" time... :P
Edit: BTW, regarding your concept of 'saving'. I will be adding the concept of Presets to handle a lot of the standard layouts. With that, I will let you "Save" and download a JSON file of your settings. This saved files can then be uploaded as a custom preset and it would populate the UI with the details saved in the file. I think that is the plan for now. This way, I can at least do the basic validating in the UI that I already do and not have to worry as much about totally bogus raw data getting sent to the backend, resulting in completely incorrect plates generated.
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 08 August 2016, 13:25:51
This is why I will go with a multiselect, so you can pick which layers the cutouts go on and if you change your mind and remove a layer or add a layer, you just change the multiselect and don't have to mess with the hole details.
Sure, but that could still require a bunch of extra clicks. Cloning / copying may be useful. Keep it in mind while you develop, but it doesn't have to be a day 0 feature. Saving is more important.
I have been working on a different feature, so I have not had a chance to look at this yet. The other feature is an integration with lasergist.com (link (http://lasergist.com/)) so you can order your case with a single click (well not quite, you need to specify what you want) from my UI. They offer free worldwide shipping, and have very competitive prices, so this should be a pretty sweet integration for you guys. I just found out that their team has some scheduled holiday in the middle of this month to get some much deserved R&R, so we will wait to launch the integration until the end of the month.
Are they going to be able to autoquote keyboard layouts greater than 300mm long? That is roughly 15 columns, which will handle 60% but not TKL or full size. Their system had a hard break at 300mm. Maybe that is the size of the laser bay. (Seems small compared to the Trotech Speedy 300's I use with a lower watt laser.)
It looked like it would be about $70-$80 for a 15x6 top, and an extra $30 for the bottom. Seems kind of expensive...
How are you handling the kerf for this one?
I will start looking at fixing the alps stabilizer issue, the poker plate size, adding a top plate and adding the additional UI for adding polygons soon. Keep in mind, I only get an hour or two to do this at night after I get my family to bed, so I don't have a huge amount of time to pump out features. I have been busting out quite a bit recently, but I have to be careful not to get too run down or I will be useless to everyone. :) I do work a full time job, have my own company on the side and do this in my "spare" time... :P
Sure, sure. We all have our day jobs. :P
Edit: BTW, regarding your concept of 'saving'. I will be adding the concept of Presets to handle a lot of the standard layouts. With that, I will let you "Save" and download a JSON file of your settings. This saved files can then be uploaded as a custom preset and it would populate the UI with the details saved in the file. I think that is the plan for now. This way, I can at least do the basic validating in the UI that I already do and not have to worry as much about totally bogus raw data getting sent to the backend, resulting in completely incorrect plates generated.
Sounds reasonable. I would want anything I reloaded in from a JSON to be revalidated and syntax checked. I would recommend that you keep a versioning field in the JSON file and also iterate on your parser rather than just overwrite the parser code. (If file is v1, use parser v1. If file is v2, use parser v2.)
Post by: swill on Mon, 08 August 2016, 13:57:37
This is why I will go with a multiselect, so you can pick which layers the cutouts go on and if you change your mind and remove a layer or add a layer, you just change the multiselect and don't have to mess with the hole details.
Sure, but that could still require a bunch of extra clicks. Cloning / copying may be useful. Keep it in mind while you develop, but it doesn't have to be a day 0 feature. Saving is more important.
I can keep that in mind. Could be possible to do a clone including all of the fields already entered.
I have been working on a different feature, so I have not had a chance to look at this yet. The other feature is an integration with lasergist.com (link (http://lasergist.com/)) so you can order your case with a single click (well not quite, you need to specify what you want) from my UI. They offer free worldwide shipping, and have very competitive prices, so this should be a pretty sweet integration for you guys. I just found out that their team has some scheduled holiday in the middle of this month to get some much deserved R&R, so we will wait to launch the integration until the end of the month.
Are they going to be able to autoquote keyboard layouts greater than 300mm long? That is roughly 15 columns, which will handle 60% but not TKL or full size. Their system had a hard break at 300mm. Maybe that is the size of the laser bay. (Seems small compared to the Trotech Speedy 300's I use with a lower watt laser.)
It looked like it would be about $70-$80 for a 15x6 top, and an extra $30 for the bottom. Seems kind of expensive...
How are you handling the kerf for this one?
I think they are still working out the pricing, we will see. They only do stainless steel too, so you can't choose cheap materials (which makes a difference). They are cheaper than BBS though from what I can tell by quoting both.
You will be able to do pieces bigger than 300mm. That is a soft limit imposed because they are working with any random thing a user sends to them. Because our use case is pretty consistent they will let me send larger objects without a problem.
Also worth noting. If you are prototyping, you can specify padding on two opposing sides at -0.005mm and the tool will automatically remove those sides. If you do this on the top and bottom for example, the resulting piece will be something like two pieces with "edge width" x 100mm (keyboard height) dimensions. So if edge width = 6mm, then it would produce two pieces that are 6 x 100mm. Because I know when this is going to happen, I can quote the overall size of that as being 22 x 100mm for that layer (both 6mm pieces with 10mm between). They will automatically account for that, so we can get a lot more middle layers cut for very cheap. I would recommend this approach for prototyping layouts using their service.
Testing has shown they cut my designs with exactly 0.2mm kerf. When you try to order I will be checking the kerf the plate is drawn with, if it does not have a 0.2mm kerf, it will automatically add it and redraw the CAD before showing the order screen and use the newly generated files for the order.
I will start looking at fixing the alps stabilizer issue, the poker plate size, adding a top plate and adding the additional UI for adding polygons soon. Keep in mind, I only get an hour or two to do this at night after I get my family to bed, so I don't have a huge amount of time to pump out features. I have been busting out quite a bit recently, but I have to be careful not to get too run down or I will be useless to everyone. :) I do work a full time job, have my own company on the side and do this in my "spare" time... :P
Sure, sure. We all have our day jobs. :PEdit: BTW, regarding your concept of 'saving'. I will be adding the concept of Presets to handle a lot of the standard layouts. With that, I will let you "Save" and download a JSON file of your settings. This saved files can then be uploaded as a custom preset and it would populate the UI with the details saved in the file. I think that is the plan for now. This way, I can at least do the basic validating in the UI that I already do and not have to worry as much about totally bogus raw data getting sent to the backend, resulting in completely incorrect plates generated.
Sounds reasonable. I would want anything I reloaded in from a JSON to be revalidated and syntax checked. I would recommend that you keep a versioning field in the JSON file and also iterate on your parser rather than just overwrite the parser code. (If file is v1, use parser v1. If file is v2, use parser v2.)
I don't know what you mean by a version in the file and in the parser. For the parser, either the code is right or its not. Only valid input will be applied to the UI. I could potentially show elements which did not apply because they were invalid, but only valid options would be added to the UI. You would then draw based on what is in the UI, allowing you to modify the details before you draw.
Maybe I didn't understand you.
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 08 August 2016, 14:12:58
Edit: BTW, regarding your concept of 'saving'. I will be adding the concept of Presets to handle a lot of the standard layouts. With that, I will let you "Save" and download a JSON file of your settings. This saved files can then be uploaded as a custom preset and it would populate the UI with the details saved in the file. I think that is the plan for now. This way, I can at least do the basic validating in the UI that I already do and not have to worry as much about totally bogus raw data getting sent to the backend, resulting in completely incorrect plates generated.
This is a great solution. I've just pushed a pretty big change to my own format that should make sharing a common format somewhat easier in the future, and there's more I want to do in that vein (for example, supporting your "middle width" setting rather than the "pcb padding" I use now.)
As a thought, could we setup a wiki somewhere that starts to collect and document common settings? As you add more features like this I could see something community driven being immensely helpful. Plus, it lets you spend your time hacking rather than documenting. :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 08 August 2016, 14:22:54
Edit: BTW, regarding your concept of 'saving'. I will be adding the concept of Presets to handle a lot of the standard layouts. With that, I will let you "Save" and download a JSON file of your settings. This saved files can then be uploaded as a custom preset and it would populate the UI with the details saved in the file. I think that is the plan for now. This way, I can at least do the basic validating in the UI that I already do and not have to worry as much about totally bogus raw data getting sent to the backend, resulting in completely incorrect plates generated.
This is a great solution. I've just pushed a pretty big change to my own format that should make sharing a common format somewhat easier in the future, and there's more I want to do in that vein (for example, supporting your "middle width" setting rather than the "pcb padding" I use now.)
As a thought, could we setup a wiki somewhere that starts to collect and document common settings? As you add more features like this I could see something community driven being immensely helpful. Plus, it lets you spend your time hacking rather than documenting. :)
I will have to look into how to best offer a Wiki without opening myself up to a **** load of spammers and *******s. User generated content is a PITA to maintain...
The easiest way (for me) would be to create a Github repo with the content in markdown and people could submit changes or new content with pull requests. I would basically just expose the 'content' folder of a Hugo site (https://gohugo.io/content/organization/). I am sure there are easier to use options, but harder for me to manage. I will have to see what is possible there...
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 08 August 2016, 14:38:23
I don't know what you mean by a version in the file and in the parser. For the parser, either the code is right or its not. Only valid input will be applied to the UI. I could potentially show elements which did not apply because they were invalid, but only valid options would be added to the UI. You would then draw based on what is in the UI, allowing you to modify the details before you draw.
Maybe I didn't understand you.
A better way to say it... Don't break file compatibility for previously generated JSON files when you decide to add new features. If I generate a JSON file, I would hope that 6 months to a year down the road that it still works. If you save a version field and clone your parser method rather than ripping out the guts of it every time, you can preserve the older formats.
Post by: skullydazed on Mon, 08 August 2016, 14:39:21
I will have to look into how to best offer a Wiki without opening myself up to a **** load of spammers and *******s. User generated content is a PITA to maintain...
The easiest way (for me) would be to create a Github repo with the content in markdown and people could submit changes or new content with pull requests. I would basically just expose the 'content' folder of a Hugo site (https://gohugo.io/content/organization/). I am sure there are easier to use options, but harder for me to manage. I will have to see what is possible there...
The github idea is pretty good. I don't think you even need Hugo, just a repo with files and README.md 's would be plenty. If you give a few people access to that repo who can handle day to day stuff (accepting PR's, responding to issues (hopefully not many,) etc) it could even free up your time.
Post by: swill on Mon, 08 August 2016, 14:56:07
I don't know what you mean by a version in the file and in the parser. For the parser, either the code is right or its not. Only valid input will be applied to the UI. I could potentially show elements which did not apply because they were invalid, but only valid options would be added to the UI. You would then draw based on what is in the UI, allowing you to modify the details before you draw.
Maybe I didn't understand you.
A better way to say it... Don't break file compatibility for previously generated JSON files when you decide to add new features. If I generate a JSON file, I would hope that 6 months to a year down the road that it still works. If you save a version field and clone your parser method rather than ripping out the guts of it every time, you can preserve the older formats.
Fair enough. The problem though is if I make breaking changes to the UI, it is unlikely I will be able to make the new features backwards compat. We will see. For example, the old padding vs the new padding + edge width. I will keep that in mind though...
Post by: swill on Mon, 08 August 2016, 15:00:08
I will have to look into how to best offer a Wiki without opening myself up to a **** load of spammers and *******s. User generated content is a PITA to maintain...
The easiest way (for me) would be to create a Github repo with the content in markdown and people could submit changes or new content with pull requests. I would basically just expose the 'content' folder of a Hugo site (https://gohugo.io/content/organization/). I am sure there are easier to use options, but harder for me to manage. I will have to see what is possible there...
The github idea is pretty good. I don't think you even need Hugo, just a repo with files and README.md 's would be plenty. If you give a few people access to that repo who can handle day to day stuff (accepting PR's, responding to issues (hopefully not many,) etc) it could even free up your time.
I have a whole bunch of Hugo sites already and I am able to host them for free on object storage, so that is the draw there... :) I have also built pipelines to automatically apply changes and deploy the sites with a single command line. I can set it up as a post commit hook to automatically re-deploy on successful commit.
Post by: emdude on Mon, 08 August 2016, 23:33:11
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
No need to remove the left screw cutout, just shorten the length.
@swill, I recommend that, for Alps plates, the length of the cutout be shortened as in the screenshot below. I also recommend that the center screw cutout be removed as well; you cannot place a screw there when the switches are mounted anyway.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/QCpbHq7.png)
Not sure how the radius of the screw cutout ended up being 2.5005, oh well.
@bubblebobbler, I apologize, I was incorrect here. I only realized this as I was working on a plate design. Simply shortening the length of the screw cutout will not solve the issue of the overlap with the stab. Even at this shorter length, there will still be an overlap. My alternate solution would be to simply remove the stab cutouts completely; a non-stepped Caps Lock key should still work properly even without stabs.
Post by: swill on Tue, 09 August 2016, 06:39:54
Removing the stabilizer for that specific switch can be done by simply adding this code to the object associated with that key: _s:0rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
No need to remove the left screw cutout, just shorten the length.
@swill, I recommend that, for Alps plates, the length of the cutout be shortened as in the screenshot below. I also recommend that the center screw cutout be removed as well; you cannot place a screw there when the switches are mounted anyway.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/QCpbHq7.png)
Not sure how the radius of the screw cutout ended up being 2.5005, oh well.
@bubblebobbler, I apologize, I was incorrect here. I only realized this as I was working on a plate design. Simply shortening the length of the screw cutout will not solve the issue of the overlap with the stab. Even at this shorter length, there will still be an overlap. My alternate solution would be to simply remove the stab cutouts completely; a non-stepped Caps Lock key should still work properly even without stabs.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Tue, 09 August 2016, 17:22:47
Here is how you handle multiple key layouts on a single layout...
Result looks like this:
[attachimg=1]
Keep in mind that the normal Right Shift will require a PCB mount stabilizer in order to function.
Here is the raw code for this layout. Basically what I am doing is placing "additional" keys in the layout and I am then moving the default keys to be placed on top of the other keys. If you paste this code into the KLE raw layout, you will not see any of the keys because I have defined them before the normal keys, so the normal key covers the additional keys. I do this to make it nicer visually, but you could change this behavior by changing the override keys to after and changing all the offsets accordingly.
So without any further ado. Additions in bold and underlined...
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:1.75},"ShortShift","Fn",{w:2.75,x:-2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{x:3.25},"Offcenter Spacebar",{w:6.25,x:-4.25},"",{w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Make note of the following sections:
- {w:1.25},"Stepped",{w:1.75,x:-1.25},"Caps Lock"
- {w:1.75},"ShortShift","Fn",{w:2.75,x:-2.75},"Shift"
- {x:3.25},"Offcenter Spacebar",{w:6.25,x:-4.25},""
Hope this helps people. Let me know if you have questions...
Edit: I may have put the Off center Spacebar in the wrong place. I don't actually know where that key actually is...
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 17 August 2016, 22:42:33
(http://i.imgur.com/u5W6zNT.jpg)
update: I've read about it, question answered :-)
(http://imgur.com/a/LQO9L)
Post by: swill on Wed, 17 August 2016, 23:00:28
Are these stab cutout extensions a recent innovation I missed?Yes. The default cherry 2u stabilizer cutout had some complaints about stuff not seating nicely. I basically just used the same cutout as the space bars and just updated the stab to be 2u.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/u5W6zNT.jpg)
update: I've read about it, question answered :-)Show Image(http://imgur.com/a/LQO9L)
I think it is an improvement for sure.
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 17 August 2016, 23:16:12
(http://i.imgur.com/PsKeNLE.jpg)
Post by: swill on Wed, 17 August 2016, 23:20:15
Hi swill! The stab cutout extensions are an interesting change, I appreciate it. However, I'm sceptical if these little nibs may be abit too small (0,6mm) for the laser cutter. What do the experts think about it?It depends on the material. Stainless or aluminum, no problem. Acrylic may not be all that strong, but I don't think it is worse than it was before. The size and shape of that piece depends on the switch cutout as well.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/VYYN3qz.jpg)
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 17 August 2016, 23:32:23
Quote
It depends on the material. Stainless or aluminum, no problem.alrighty, then i was abit over anxious. ;D
Post by: kawasaki161 on Thu, 18 August 2016, 06:34:53
Post by: swill on Thu, 18 August 2016, 07:45:42
I have another feature request. Maybe cutouts for PCB mount cherry stabs with 5mm plates would be nice to have. I've got a rough example here (https://puu.sh/qdbRm/811b2006e2.png), the cutouts are on the bigger side in this example, but I didn't want to have a plate I can't use as my first prototype. If everything goes to plan I'll have the plate next week, I should be able to correct and share the measurements by then.Let me know how it goes. :)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: xondat on Thu, 18 August 2016, 09:42:22
Can confirm, Aluminum works absolutely fine.QuoteIt depends on the material. Stainless or aluminum, no problem.alrighty, then i was abit over anxious. ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/zY4qZbi.jpg)
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 23 August 2016, 21:21:33
layered case, a fairing layer is added to avoid the ugly "floating keys style".
That would be a rim around the key matrix (picture 1), but there is one
downside: you can see through the gaps of the keycaps to the lower
stage, ie. the plate, which might be abit ugly. So i came up with a
additional auxiliary "ceiling" layer (picture 2), which goes between the
keycaps and the plate. First question, what is your opinion on that? And,
second question, which measurements would be ideal?
1) Height: I calculated the value for the layer's height as 2mm, you can't
take more since it will collide with the keycaps then.
2) Switch cutouts: The Cherry switches allow a cutout not smaller than
15,9 * 15,6mm. With a little safety clearance added, perhaps something
like 16,5mm*16,5mm would be a good medium between too large and too
small.
3) Stab cutouts: Here comes the tricky part. I don't have courtyard
dimensions of stabs at hand, can someone help out?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Tue, 23 August 2016, 22:23:02
My initial plan was to use the 19.05mm boundary of the key as the cutout size. As you point out, this will not leave any space between the keycaps and will essentially cut out the entire middle of the plate.
I could potentially let the top plate cutout boundary be a configurable value between 16 and 19.05mm. This would let users configure how they want this top layer to be cut. Of course, this gets a bit tricky. For MX, pretty much all the cutouts (including stabilizers) would work inside a 16mm boundary. However, things are a bit tricker for Alps. First, the cutout is not square, so we have to know how we expect the cutout to look there. Next, you can't get away with anything less than 19mm with a stabilized alps key for a boundary because the alps stabs are so displaced from the switch.
I will have to do some more thinking about the configurability of the top layer cutout and how much control I want to give over it. For alps, I could potentially have two different types of cutouts depending on if the key is stabilized or not, but then I start getting into more complex logic. Did the user flip the stabilizer to the other side (eg: {_rs:180} )? How do I account for a configurable sizing in these cases, etc...
I will definitely be digging into this more soon, but right now, I can't commit to any specific details yet. I need to think about this more first...
I'd like to talk about fairing layers. Usually, when building a sandwhich
layered case, a fairing layer is added to avoid the ugly "floating keys style".
That would be a rim around the key matrix (picture 1), but there is one
downside: you can see through the gaps of the keycaps to the lower
stage, ie. the plate, which might be abit ugly. So i came up with a
additional auxiliary "ceiling" layer (picture 2), which goes between the
keycaps and the plate. First question, what is your opinion on that? And,
second question, which measurements would be ideal?
1) Height: I calculated the value for the layer's height as 2mm, you can't
take more since it will collide with the keycaps then.
2) Switch cutouts: The Cherry switches allow a cutout not smaller than
15,9 * 15,6mm. With a little safety clearance added, perhaps something
like 16,5mm*16,5mm would be a good medium between too large and too
small.
3) Stab cutouts: Here comes the tricky part. I don't have courtyard
dimensions of stabs at hand, can someone help out?
(Attachment Link)
Post by: ideus on Tue, 23 August 2016, 22:28:10
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 24 August 2016, 12:21:24
Changed topic: I noticed a bug(?) in the plate builder. Or isn't it a bug?
See picture.
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Wed, 24 August 2016, 12:24:03
Hi swill! I'm looking forward to your coming fairing feature! A Question: You wrote a 16*16mm courtyard will be sufficient for Cherry MX & stabs. Does this include costar stabs too? Or just Cherry & cherry stabs?
Both, but that has not been validated. That is by the numbers, not by measuring the plastic overlap beyond the cutout.
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 24 August 2016, 12:38:25
Post by: swill on Wed, 24 August 2016, 14:13:53
Ye, the plastic overlaps are the essentially tricky part! Thats why I call it "courtyard" ;-) The problem is, I can't find any datasheet about the courtyard measurements of Cherry & Costar stabs..
PCB mount cherry stabs will be fine.
Plate mount cherry stabs will be tricky because of the bar and the clip in plastic.
Costar will depend on the clip in plastic.
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 24 August 2016, 18:45:15
This is a feature that is on the near term roadmap. I plan to work on it as soon as I launch an integration which I am almost finished with.
My initial plan was to use the 19.05mm boundary of the key as the cutout size. As you point out, this will not leave any space between the keycaps and will essentially cut out the entire middle of the plate.
I could potentially let the top plate cutout boundary be a configurable value between 16 and 19.05mm. This would let users configure how they want this top layer to be cut. Of course, this gets a bit tricky. For MX, pretty much all the cutouts (including stabilizers) would work inside a 16mm boundary. However, things are a bit tricker for Alps. First, the cutout is not square, so we have to know how we expect the cutout to look there. Next, you can't get away with anything less than 19mm with a stabilized alps key for a boundary because the alps stabs are so displaced from the switch.
I will have to do some more thinking about the configurability of the top layer cutout and how much control I want to give over it. For alps, I could potentially have two different types of cutouts depending on if the key is stabilized or not, but then I start getting into more complex logic. Did the user flip the stabilizer to the other side (eg: {_rs:180} )? How do I account for a configurable sizing in these cases, etc...
I will definitely be digging into this more soon, but right now, I can't commit to any specific details yet. I need to think about this more first...
Could this potentially be used not as a top plate but as a sandwich layer between the plate and surface of the PCB? Kinda like the sandwich layer you commonly see on full Acrylic layered cases to improve on rigidity? That could be neat!
Not that I really care about sandwiched layers, but I was thinking the pattern could be used to cut a 3mm thick layer of low density foam or neoprene to be used as a sound dampener, glued to the back of the plate. Just a thought!
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 24 August 2016, 23:39:34
[attach=3]
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 26 August 2016, 08:53:23
Lasergist said that they recommend a kerf of .15mm. If I didn't want to regenerate my keyboard layout, would I resize the diameter of my cutouts by .3mm inward (around the center) and the edge of the board by .3mm outward?
Post by: swill on Fri, 26 August 2016, 10:15:02
Hey Swill... Can you check my logic...
Lasergist said that they recommend a kerf of .15mm. If I didn't want to regenerate my keyboard layout, would I resize the diameter of my cutouts by .3mm inward (around the center) and the edge of the board by .3mm outward?
Trust me, you will want to just set the kerf setting in the builder and regenerate the layout. It will be WAY less work. I have been working with lasergist to sort out these details and we actually came to 0.2mm as the ideal kerf to use. I will use that in my description because it makes things easier to represent.
The kerf is the width of the material removed when making a cut with a tool. That means, that if you are making a cut and you keep the center of the cutting tool on the line you are cutting, you will be removing 1/2 the kerf on one side and 1/2 the kerf on the other side (in this case 1/2 of 0.2mm => 0.1mm).
So if you visualize this, outside boundary of the plate would have to be 0.1mm BIGGER than what you want because when the cut is made, it will be cutting an extra 0.1mm inside the actual line drawn.
The opposite is true for cuts made inside the plate since you are cutting away material. On cuts inside the plate, the dimensions have to be 0.1mm SMALLER because the final cutout will be bigger because the tool will cut a bigger hole than what is defined by the line because the tool will cut out an extra 1/2 kerf (0.1mm) outside the line drawn.
So in summary, the cutouts need to be adjusted by 1/2 the kerf size (0.1mm in this case).
- Cuts to the outside boundaries need to be made bigger by 1/2 the kerf (0.1mm) since the resulting piece will be smaller than the lines drawn.
- Cut outs inside the plate need to be smaller by 1/2 the kerf (0.1mm) since more material will be cut out of the plate than what is drawn.
I hope that makes sense. If you are using something like the MX H style cutout or the Cherry MX stabilizers, be careful, the adjustments are not obvious to account for kerf. Some lines get longer and some get shorter. You have to visualize the cutting tool making the cut to understand what needs to be changed.
I highly recommend regenerating the plate with a kerf value of 0.2mm if you are going to be using lasergist. Doing the adjustments by hand after the fact is going to be very hard and will take a long time (and you could make errors).
Let me know if you have any questions.
Post by: swill on Fri, 26 August 2016, 10:28:37
If someone needs it and for the sake of documentation, here I draw a info sketch of the exact measurements.
(Attachment Link)
thank you for checking my work. i have adjusted the 2u stabilizer to reflect the 11.9mm distance from switch center to stab center. Not sure how I messed up that calculation by 0.05mm, but it was still in the Cherry tolerance. The calculation was not wrong before my last release. In the last release I removed the static cherry 2u cutout in favor of the 'winged' cutout for a more structured stabilizer cutout (like the spacebar cutout). In that change I introduced the 11.95mm variable to the spacebar cutout to represent the 2u stabilizer.
Thanks for reviewing this for me. :)
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 26 August 2016, 13:16:13
How does your kerf affect the manual padding added to the edges? If I have 10mm padding on the top and bottom, does the kerf setting extend that beyond 10mm?
Post by: swill on Fri, 26 August 2016, 13:42:32
You had better luck with a .2mm kerf? They had recommended a .15mm kerf to me. Good to know, and I am glad I asked. I will regenerate.
How does your kerf affect the manual padding added to the edges? If I have 10mm padding on the top and bottom, does the kerf setting extend that beyond 10mm?
They told me to use either 0.15mm or 0.2mm. Then they cut a 2 key test plate with 0.2mm kerf and showed me pics of the caliper measurement and it was perfect. Honestly, 2.5 hundredths of a mm will be completely un-noticeable.
They may have suggested 0.15mm because their precision will range between 0.15 and 0.2. If that is the case, then if the cut is 0.15 and the kerf is set to 0.2, then the cutouts would be slightly smaller than intended. In that case it is better to error on the cutout being slightly bigger than intended rather than too small (only by 0.025mm).
So in that case their recommendation may actually be right.
As for padding and such, Yes, my tool adjusts for kerf on anything it draws so you don't have to worry about that.
Post by: ideus on Fri, 26 August 2016, 14:36:03
Post by: swill on Fri, 26 August 2016, 19:51:09
Is there a generally accepted rule for Cutting shops regarding kerf? Or we should ask each time if they add it, or the customer should do it?No there is not. It depends on the shop. Some will account for kerf for you and you won't have to worry about it. Some expect you to account for it, but you have to ask what their kerf is for the material and thickness you are cutting.
There are a lot of different machines and cutting types, each with different kerf. A single machine will have different kerf values based on; material, thickness and tool speed. Because if this you really need to be checking with the fab shop to know how to get the best results given your material details.
Post by: IBNobody on Fri, 26 August 2016, 20:53:14
They told me to use either 0.15mm or 0.2mm. Then they cut a 2 key test plate with 0.2mm kerf and showed me pics of the caliper measurement and it was perfect. Honestly, 2.5 hundredths of a mm will be completely un-noticeable.
They may have suggested 0.15mm because their precision will range between 0.15 and 0.2. If that is the case, then if the cut is 0.15 and the kerf is set to 0.2, then the cutouts would be slightly smaller than intended. In that case it is better to error on the cutout being slightly bigger than intended rather than too small (only by 0.025mm).
So in that case their recommendation may actually be right.
As for padding and such, Yes, my tool adjusts for kerf on anything it draws so you don't have to worry about that.
Ok. 0.15mm it is...
One thing that I think I may run into trouble on, though, is tabs. I want to add enough padding to the top and bottom so that I can fold the metal down with a finger press. The act of bending lengthens the metal, but there are calculators for that. I also am adding some portals in the bend for USB. That's why I was reluctant to rebuild the keyboard SVG. I am afraid I am going to goof and not get a precise length bend.
What I may do, then, is generate an SVG with and without a kerf, overlap them in AI (making one guides), and make any edits I need.That way, I have a visual representation.
Your hole tool can't come soon enough! :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 26 August 2016, 21:37:52
They told me to use either 0.15mm or 0.2mm. Then they cut a 2 key test plate with 0.2mm kerf and showed me pics of the caliper measurement and it was perfect. Honestly, 2.5 hundredths of a mm will be completely un-noticeable.
They may have suggested 0.15mm because their precision will range between 0.15 and 0.2. If that is the case, then if the cut is 0.15 and the kerf is set to 0.2, then the cutouts would be slightly smaller than intended. In that case it is better to error on the cutout being slightly bigger than intended rather than too small (only by 0.025mm).
So in that case their recommendation may actually be right.
As for padding and such, Yes, my tool adjusts for kerf on anything it draws so you don't have to worry about that.
Ok. 0.15mm it is...
One thing that I think I may run into trouble on, though, is tabs. I want to add enough padding to the top and bottom so that I can fold the metal down with a finger press. The act of bending lengthens the metal, but there are calculators for that. I also am adding some portals in the bend for USB. That's why I was reluctant to rebuild the keyboard SVG. I am afraid I am going to goof and not get a precise length bend.
What I may do, then, is generate an SVG with and without a kerf, overlap them in AI (making one guides), and make any edits I need.That way, I have a visual representation.
Your hole tool can't come soon enough! :)
Soon™ :)
Post by: Eszett on Sat, 27 August 2016, 02:04:16
Quote
thank you for checking my work. i have adjusted the 2u stabilizer to reflect the 11.9mm distance from switch center to stab center.Good to know, swill. Another question... is it a bug that the Cherry&Costar compatible miss this rectangle here? See picture.
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 08:27:10
That is intentional. The costar stabilizer has slightly different characteristics, so the cutout had to be slightly modified to adapt to being compatible with costar as well. That is why that small piece is different.Quotethank you for checking my work. i have adjusted the 2u stabilizer to reflect the 11.9mm distance from switch center to stab center.Good to know, swill. Another question... is it a bug that the Cherry&Costar compatible miss this rectangle here? See picture.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Eszett on Sat, 27 August 2016, 10:03:59
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 10:12:35
Hi swill! I would understand it, if it was a slightly enlarged cutout for the Costar stabs. But the cutout is shrinked, by 0.2mm! Maybe because else the Costar stabs would not sit tight enough? Ok, but the Cherry stabs fit in too, that means the Cherry only cutouts can have the same dimensions (0.2mm less)?You are neglecting the cutout on the top of the stabilizer. It is because the costar stabilizer needs to be in the right place in both placement and length.
Trust me on this one. This measurement has had more review than any other cutout. It has already been tweaked a couple times to get it just right, and that was after integrating details from other designer's costar/cherry cutouts.
Maybe review the costar only stabilizer to compare.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Sat, 27 August 2016, 10:26:27
Is there a generally accepted rule for Cutting shops regarding kerf? Or we should ask each time if they add it, or the customer should do it?No there is not. It depends on the shop. Some will account for kerf for you and you won't have to worry about it. Some expect you to account for it, but you have to ask what their kerf is for the material and thickness you are cutting.
There are a lot of different machines and cutting types, each with different kerf. A single machine will have different kerf values based on; material, thickness and tool speed. Because if this you really need to be checking with the fab shop to know how to get the best results given your material details.
Of course, we should ask up front depending on material and thickness, thank you.
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 15:26:48
Hi swill! I'm looking forward to your coming fairing feature! A Question: You wrote a 16*16mm courtyard will be sufficient for Cherry MX & stabs. Does this include costar stabs too? Or just Cherry & cherry stabs?
Changed topic: I noticed a bug(?) in the plate builder. Or isn't it a bug?
See picture.
(Attachment Link)
This is not a bug, this is correct.
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 15:37:38
Ya. I need to adjust those widths. What width keys are you having problems with?http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
Looking at your layout, it appears to be the 2.75u Rshift that is having a problem. Can you confirm?
Also, is it possible to flip alps stabilizers? If so, we could rotate the caps lock key 180 degrees and have the stabilizer not mess with the poker cutout. {w:1.75,_rs:180},"Caps Lock"
This would result in the following, would that work?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 17:39:19
Post by: duynguyenle on Sat, 27 August 2016, 19:14:14
Ya. I need to adjust those widths. What width keys are you having problems with?http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
Looking at your layout, it appears to be the 2.75u Rshift that is having a problem. Can you confirm?
Also, is it possible to flip alps stabilizers? If so, we could rotate the caps lock key 180 degrees and have the stabilizer not mess with the poker cutout. {w:1.75,_rs:180},"Caps Lock"
This would result in the following, would that work?
(Attachment Link)
I don't believe it's possible to flip Alps stabs, the asymmetry of the insert positions precludes that possibility I think. Just having a quick test with the Alps plate I've got on hand and a 2u stabilised AEK keycap, the wire does not stay in the 'jaw' of the keycap insert (engineering term is the birdmouth :thumb:).
If it's helpful for you, I could try and make a quick video demonstrating this tomorrow.
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 19:16:13
OK. Can you take out and flip the insert in the keycap maybe? I will see what I can do to fix that interaction.Ya. I need to adjust those widths. What width keys are you having problems with?http://imgur.com/a/RrNoBI will fix this. I have had mixed reports on this. I will make the 2u stabilizer cutouts closer to the switch cutout.
maybe hard to see, the alps stabiliser clip spacing doesnt seem to match the wire size, the wire cant be 'rolled' down from this position as the spacing of the clips is too narrow
As a small fix for this. Clip the corner off the alps stabilizer and it will be able to rotate. Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
the fix worked, thanks
however, the same still applies for the right shift for example, and the difference in that case is enough that even clipped stabilisers will not turn. (I pulled a rshift stabiliser from a dell at102 just now, so I know it's not my stabilisers)
rshift is 2.25u.
I haven't looked at my 5.5u spacebar yet.
this was my design (the gap between spacebar and ralt was because of my mistake)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/15c003ced176049524258fd31dc3d941
http://puu.sh/qt77d/bfd3e7c384.png
another thing is that you need to sacrifice the 'poker case' screw on the left if using alps stabilisers, due to this
http://puu.sh/qt7e3/9b79619640.png
previously, I think the left hole and left stabiliser mark would 'blend into eachother', so I made the mistake of not realising until I tried to install stabilisers.
I'm having problems with my enter key (but that's because I have too 'wide' stabilisers due to using an AEK enter to salvage the mismatched placement of the switch itself)
I'll likely end up desoldering and making a new plate with these issues resolved
Looking at your layout, it appears to be the 2.75u Rshift that is having a problem. Can you confirm?
Also, is it possible to flip alps stabilizers? If so, we could rotate the caps lock key 180 degrees and have the stabilizer not mess with the poker cutout. {w:1.75,_rs:180},"Caps Lock"
This would result in the following, would that work?
(Attachment Link)
I don't believe it's possible to flip Alps stabs, the asymmetry of the insert positions precludes that possibility I think. Just having a quick test with the Alps plate I've got on hand and a 2u stabilised AEK keycap, the wire does not stay in the 'jaw' of the keycap insert (engineering term is the birdmouth :thumb:).
If it's helpful for you, I could try and make a quick video demonstrating this tomorrow.
Post by: duynguyenle on Sat, 27 August 2016, 19:31:37
OK. Can you take out and flip the insert in the keycap maybe? I will see what I can do to fix that interaction.
That is precisely what I have done, it doesn't work with a flipped stab holes, if you try and flip the stab hole position and the keycap insert, the wire length means that it will lie entirely outside the jaw of the insert for the entirety of the key travel. I will try to take a quick video in the morning to illustrate what I mean. I believe it can work, the issue is just the length of the Alps wire.
I will try using some Matias stabiliser wire I have as well, since those are shorter than AEK and Dell wires that I have. Will need to try and dig that out of my big box of assorted keyboard stuff tomorrow.
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 19:34:12
Cool. Thanks for checking on this for me.
OK. Can you take out and flip the insert in the keycap maybe? I will see what I can do to fix that interaction.
That is precisely what I have done, it doesn't work with a flipped stab holes, if you try and flip the stab hole position and the keycap insert, the wire length means that it will lie entirely outside the jaw of the insert for the entirety of the key travel. I will try to take a quick video in the morning to illustrate what I mean. I believe it can work, the issue is just the length of the Alps wire.
I will try using some Matias stabiliser wire I have as well, since those are shorter than AEK and Dell wires that I have. Will need to try and dig that out of my big box of assorted keyboard stuff tomorrow.
In that case, can you confirm I default to the correct orientation for the alps iso enter? I know I need to adjust for stem placement on that key too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: Eszett on Sat, 27 August 2016, 19:54:14
Post by: swill on Sat, 27 August 2016, 22:12:59
Design and order your cases at http://builder.swillkb.com/
The details are subject to change, but here is a snapshot of the functionality.
Design a Plate / Case, then Order
[attachimg=1]
Choose what you want, with Live Price Updates
[attachimg=2]
Checkout at lasergist.com
[attachimg=3]
We are working on ways to bring the costs down, so check in the builder for the actual costs...
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 28 August 2016, 06:57:31
Cool. Thanks for checking on this for me.
In that case, can you confirm I default to the correct orientation for the alps iso enter? I know I need to adjust for stem placement on that key too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Here's a little video, sorry about potato quality:
Using a Matias wire makes no difference, as the Matias wire is only fractionally shorter:
(http://i.imgur.com/uSFqn6g.jpg)
I can confirm your ISO enter cutout position is slightly off, but the stabiliser cut out is in the correct position:
(http://i.imgur.com/VIUmRzo.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/rO7TCMP.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/sMusXUy.jpg)
I will try and confirm how much you need to move your Enter hole position once I get around to making some new Alps plates, I believe I got a drawing that works but would like to get some plates cut locally and find out first hand. Alternately I could try and dig out my old Dell AT102W, but that's currently in storage buried in one out of a gazillion identical boxes :rolleyes:
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 August 2016, 23:28:06
403 Forbidden: Contact me if you think this error is a mistake.
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 August 2016, 23:29:26
Cool. Thanks for checking on this for me.
In that case, can you confirm I default to the correct orientation for the alps iso enter? I know I need to adjust for stem placement on that key too.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Here's a little video, sorry about potato quality:
Using a Matias wire makes no difference, as the Matias wire is only fractionally shorter:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/uSFqn6g.jpg)
I can confirm your ISO enter cutout position is slightly off, but the stabiliser cut out is in the correct position:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/VIUmRzo.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rO7TCMP.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/sMusXUy.jpg)
I will try and confirm how much you need to move your Enter hole position once I get around to making some new Alps plates, I believe I got a drawing that works but would like to get some plates cut locally and find out first hand. Alternately I could try and dig out my old Dell AT102W, but that's currently in storage buried in one out of a gazillion identical boxes :rolleyes:
Thank you for the detail. I will work on a solution for the poker plate and Alps stabilizers. :)
If/when you figure out how the ISO enter cutout needs to be adjusted, I will make it happen. Thanks...
Post by: emdude on Sun, 28 August 2016, 23:42:10
Looking at your layout, it appears to be the 2.75u Rshift that is having a problem. Can you confirm?
Also, is it possible to flip alps stabilizers? If so, we could rotate the caps lock key 180 degrees and have the stabilizer not mess with the poker cutout. {w:1.75,_rs:180},"Caps Lock"
This would result in the following, would that work?
(Attachment Link)
As duynguyenle has pointed out, the stab inserts on Alps keys are not centered, so I don't believe it is possible to just flip the stab cutouts. Here's a quick photo I took of a Caps Lock key:
(http://i.imgur.com/lDBrJ1w.jpg)
It would probably be best just to exclude the Caps Lock stabilizer cutouts by default. The key does not need it anyway and many Alps keyboards had nonstepped Caps Lock keys that were not stabilized (i.e. Focus and Northgate).
Post by: swill on Sun, 28 August 2016, 23:55:49
Looking at your layout, it appears to be the 2.75u Rshift that is having a problem. Can you confirm?
Also, is it possible to flip alps stabilizers? If so, we could rotate the caps lock key 180 degrees and have the stabilizer not mess with the poker cutout. {w:1.75,_rs:180},"Caps Lock"
This would result in the following, would that work?
(Attachment Link)
As duynguyenle has pointed out, the stab inserts on Alps keys are not centered, so I don't believe it is possible to just flip the stab cutouts. Here's a quick photo I took of a Caps Lock key:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/lDBrJ1w.jpg)
It would probably be best just to exclude the Caps Lock stabilizer cutouts by default. The key does not need it anyway and many Alps keyboards had nonstepped Caps Lock keys that were not stabilized (i.e. Focus and Northgate).
Hard for me to do that by default because it is technically a stabilized key (unless I just remove the 1.75u stabilized key option). You can however remove that specific stabilizer very easily in a case by case basis by using a {_s:0} option for that key.
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 07:41:25
(http://i.imgur.com/N3dEK1G.png?1)
If I zero out the quantities, there is a $4.48 base charge.
Post by: duynguyenle on Mon, 29 August 2016, 07:51:22
Maybe this is a bug?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/N3dEK1G.png?1)
If I zero out the quantities, there is a $4.48 base charge.
Standard admin fees probably
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 07:54:52
Maybe this is a bug?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/N3dEK1G.png?1)
If I zero out the quantities, there is a $4.48 base charge.
I had not tried that. :)
I can raise this with lasergist to see what they think of this. Probably can be considered a bug, but does not seem like a major one since you won't be ordering anything if you buy that. :P
Post by: LifeIsOnTheWire on Mon, 29 August 2016, 07:58:19
Do most people not run stabs on 1.75 keys?
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 08:18:29
Sorry if this has been asked already, but how do you add stab cutouts to 1.75u keys?Cherry does not stabilize 1.75u keys, so there is no option for that because the keycaps don't support it.
Do most people not run stabs on 1.75 keys?
Alps do run stabilizers on 1.75u keys, so a stabilizer will automatically be drawn for you in that case.
Does that answer your question?
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 09:03:16
I had not tried that. :)
I can raise this with lasergist to see what they think of this. Probably can be considered a bug, but does not seem like a major one since you won't be ordering anything if you buy that. :P
It was something I was looking at when I saw that the order button included all the parts for a sandwich plate. I wanted to see what each plate was going to cost me individually. I wanted to make a judgement call on what it would cost me to cut out the other pieces. Thus, I zero'ed everything out. Maybe show an itemized quote?
The auto-quoting came in slightly higher than what I could get from their website or through e-mail. The quote for the top plate came in at ~$101. I paid $99 for a similar board with more holes than what was in that screenshot, and if I hacked the form fields on their website to accept sizes greater than 300mm, I was quoted $96.
Finally, I know the hole UI will solve this, but as of right now, the only way to get a plate with holes is to use the sandwich case option. That means we get the inner layers generated and quoted from LG as well as the top and bottom. I don't know about everybody else, but I would never pay what they are charging for an inner layer (especially when you need multiples). Does it make sense to quote those layers by default? Maybe a short term solution would be to add a sandwich case option that didn't include the inner layers?
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 09:17:19
I had not tried that. :)
I can raise this with lasergist to see what they think of this. Probably can be considered a bug, but does not seem like a major one since you won't be ordering anything if you buy that. :P
It was something I was looking at when I saw that the order button included all the parts for a sandwich plate. I wanted to see what each plate was going to cost me individually. I wanted to make a judgement call on what it would cost me to cut out the other pieces. Thus, I zero'ed everything out. Maybe show an itemized quote?
The auto-quoting came in slightly higher than what I could get from their website or through e-mail. The quote for the top plate came in at ~$101. I paid $99 for a similar board with more holes than what was in that screenshot, and if I hacked the form fields on their website to accept sizes greater than 300mm, I was quoted $96.
Finally, I know the hole UI will solve this, but as of right now, the only way to get a plate with holes is to use the sandwich case option. That means we get the inner layers generated and quoted from LG as well as the top and bottom. I don't know about everybody else, but I would never pay what they are charging for an inner layer (especially when you need multiples). Does it make sense to quote those layers by default? Maybe a short term solution would be to add a sandwich case option that didn't include the inner layers?
It does not make sense to add a new sandwich case type without inner layers because that is way too complicated for the problem it solves. You can just not use the middle layers of the sandwich case and you are all set.
We are working on ways to bring the costs down, especially on the middle layers. Right now lasergist does not know how much material is left after the cuts are made when quoting the plates. This means that they currently can not optimize the calculation for shipping costs, so the quote is least accurate for those middle layers. I am writing an algorithm to calculate the resulting surface area of every layer which I will be passing to lasergist's quoting api to get more accurate quotes.
The pricing is not optimized yet. We are actively working to get the pricing down, especially for middle layers...
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 09:28:17
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 09:36:36
Conceptually, wouldn't a top/bottom sandwich just require you to clone the top/bottom/inner code and then comment out the inner? Or is the code not optimized like that?
No, the UI is the hard part. I have to have a new case type. I have to handle it differently than (but the same) as the sandwich.
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
Post by: LifeIsOnTheWire on Mon, 29 August 2016, 10:13:46
Sorry if this has been asked already, but how do you add stab cutouts to 1.75u keys?Cherry does not stabilize 1.75u keys, so there is no option for that because the keycaps don't support it.
Do most people not run stabs on 1.75 keys?
Alps do run stabilizers on 1.75u keys, so a stabilizer will automatically be drawn for you in that case.
Does that answer your question?
Yes, thanks a bunch. That answers my question, and saves me some hassle.
Also, thanks for making this tool. Its a major help!
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 10:16:52
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Post by: duynguyenle on Mon, 29 August 2016, 11:26:45
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Why can't you just put the quantity to zero for the sandwich layers and just order 1xtop and 1xbottom?
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 11:32:44
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Easy, set Qty for those layers to 0 and you are all set. :P
Yes, I expect people will buy middle layers from LG. We will be working on pricing of those layers to make them more attractive. I will also do a guide soon for how to get the best value for the middle layers when I have more time. For example, you can already drop the price a lot by only cutting sides for two of the sides.
Example:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
NOTE: I will likely change the negative numbers there to not have to account for kerf. Right now you have to put a value less than 0 - kerf for it to completely remove the sides.
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 11:33:15
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Why can't you just put the quantity to zero for the sandwich layers and just order 1xtop and 1xbottom?
You can. :)
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 12:12:27
Why can't you just put the quantity to zero for the sandwich layers and just order 1xtop and 1xbottom?
That is what you have to do now, but does it make sense to auto quote the sandwich inner layers? Will more people really want rough edge* stacked stainless steel sheet metal for their inner layers as opposed to acrylic or wood or nothing?
My opinion is to set the tools up to default to what most people will want.
(* The lasering process naturally has rough edges when you stack multiple sheets due to the tapering effect of the cut. This happens because the laser is not completely perpendicular to the material face. It cuts at an angle slightly off of 90 degrees. One edge of the cut will be slightly longer. It is hard to see on thin material, but when you stack up multiple sheets, you can feel it. Depending on how the laser is on the gantry and how the material is loaded into the cutter. With SS, this effect can be even more annoying because it is hard to file down the case to remove the taper effect. If you want a smooth SS case, you are better off getting a large 10mm sheet cut or milled.)
Post by: duynguyenle on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:00:16
*what most people will want.
*Citation needed
I am aware of the limitations of laser cutting w.r.t to surface roughness on thicker plates. However, I would make the assumption that if you're competent enough to order plates to build your own keyboard, you would also be competent enough to spend 20 minutes with some sandpaper*
*Also citation needed :p
Post by: lasergist on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:12:59
Maybe this is a bug?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/N3dEK1G.png?1)
If I zero out the quantities, there is a $4.48 base charge.
I had not tried that. :)
I can raise this with lasergist to see what they think of this. Probably can be considered a bug, but does not seem like a major one since you won't be ordering anything if you buy that. :P
Hi All,
We are really excited for this integration. Just fixed the zero value bug too. It was a bug caused by the shipping calculations - not a standard fee. There is no fixed amount in our pricing formula!
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:30:55
*what most people will want.
*Citation needed
Just look at what comes up on /r/mk :P Acrylic is the most popular sandwich middle.
Post by: lasergist on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:36:22
The auto-quoting came in slightly higher than what I could get from their website or through e-mail. The quote for the top plate came in at ~$101. I paid $99 for a similar board with more holes than what was in that screenshot, and if I hacked the form fields on their website to accept sizes greater than 300mm, I was quoted $96.
Huge question: How did you hack the form?!! :-[
Regarding pricing, a single plate indeed might cost slightly more (in some cases less) through the integration. Multiple plates though come significantly cheaper. As Will mentioned we are working a lot to reduce the cost - especially the shipping costs. The pricing formula is fine tuned towards keyboard plates and allows us to use more protective packaging and do some extra steps (like perfectly flattening the plates and some other finishing treatments). This sometimes increases the cost for each plate about a dollar, but in some cases it ends up actually cheaper.
More than anything we need the geekhack community input to make this better and as useful as possible. Please share any comments you have.
On another subject that @IBNobody mentioned regarding the finishing of the back side: it is a very good point. The shine up bath and the backside brushing options on www.lasergist.com (http://www.lasergist.com) are meant to treat this exact "problem" but those are not -yet- available through the integration.
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:38:30
Hi All,
We are really excited for this integration. Just fixed the zero value bug too. It was a bug caused by the shipping calculations - not a standard fee. There is no fixed amount in our pricing formula!
Thank you for the quick fix.
Post by: lasergist on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:41:09
Hi All,
We are really excited for this integration. Just fixed the zero value bug too. It was a bug caused by the shipping calculations - not a standard fee. There is no fixed amount in our pricing formula!
Thank you for the quick fix.
Thanks for noticing it!
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:48:04
Huge question: How did you hack the form?!! :-[
You can hack the form by modifying the DOM for the input fields and changing this data-parsley-max="300" to a larger number. This can be done with something like Chrome through the inspector. I just did it to test and prove it can be done...
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:49:35
Huge question: How did you hack the form?!! :-[
Regarding pricing, a single plate indeed might cost slightly more (in some cases less) through the integration. Multiple plates though come significantly cheaper. As Will mentioned we are working a lot to reduce the cost - especially the shipping costs. The pricing formula is fine tuned towards keyboard plates and allows us to use more protective packaging and do some extra steps (like perfectly flattening the plates and some other finishing treatments). This sometimes increases the cost for each plate about a dollar, but in some cases it ends up actually cheaper.
More than anything we need the geekhack community input to make this better and as useful as possible. Please share any comments you have.
On another subject that @IBNobody mentioned regarding the finishing of the back side: it is a very good point. The shine up bath and the backside brushing options on www.lasergist.com (http://www.lasergist.com) are meant to treat this exact "problem" but those are not -yet- available through the integration.
I "hacked" the form by figuring out where the 300mm limit was using Chrome's inspection window and changing it to 500. It let me submit the form with my 470mm long board and get a $96 quote. I took that as a ballpark quote and used it to compare the cost between what you could give me and my other options. You guys won. When I placed my order (1210908), though, I did so using the recommended method of emailing you the SVG.
I won't have to do this again to get a ballpark quote next time I order thanks to Swill's tool, but I will still need to submit my files to you via email because I currently have holes in my keyboard that are not present on Swill's raw output.
Edit: Here is the layout.
http://svgur.com/s/Ae
Post by: lasergist on Mon, 29 August 2016, 13:56:33
Huge question: How did you hack the form?!! :-[
Regarding pricing, a single plate indeed might cost slightly more (in some cases less) through the integration. Multiple plates though come significantly cheaper. As Will mentioned we are working a lot to reduce the cost - especially the shipping costs. The pricing formula is fine tuned towards keyboard plates and allows us to use more protective packaging and do some extra steps (like perfectly flattening the plates and some other finishing treatments). This sometimes increases the cost for each plate about a dollar, but in some cases it ends up actually cheaper.
More than anything we need the geekhack community input to make this better and as useful as possible. Please share any comments you have.
On another subject that @IBNobody mentioned regarding the finishing of the back side: it is a very good point. The shine up bath and the backside brushing options on www.lasergist.com (http://www.lasergist.com) are meant to treat this exact "problem" but those are not -yet- available through the integration.
I "hacked" the form by figuring out where the 300mm limit was using Chrome's inspection window and changing it to 500. It let me submit the form with my 470mm long board and get a $96 quote. I took that as a ballpark quote and used it to compare the cost between what you could give me and my other options. You guys won. When I placed my order (1210908), though, I did so using the recommended method of emailing you the SVG.
I won't have to do this again to get a ballpark quote next time I order thanks to Swill's tool, but I will still need to submit my files to you via email because I currently have holes in my keyboard that are not present on Swill's raw output.
Hmmm... this would fall back to the AISI 304 / 1.0mm calculation formula which is basically invalid. Good that you pointed this out and thanks Will for confirming this.
Post by: kawasaki161 on Mon, 29 August 2016, 14:28:43
I have another feature request. Maybe cutouts for PCB mount cherry stabs with 5mm plates would be nice to have. I've got a rough example here (https://puu.sh/qdbRm/811b2006e2.png), the cutouts are on the bigger side in this example, but I didn't want to have a plate I can't use as my first prototype. If everything goes to plan I'll have the plate next week, I should be able to correct and share the measurements by then.Let me know how it goes. :)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Update: The guy who told me he would make it for me apparently spent 2 weeks sourcing the right acrylic (still not finding any), after I told him to just do it in black because I need it soon he asked me what soon meant. I answered 8 days max. (formulor, the german ponoko, says their stuff can take up to 8 days) and he told me this isn't even close to what he could do and that he would take waaay longer (WTF).
I ordered through formulor now (rip 50 bucks holy ****) and hope my file didn't get messed up while I converted it. I could have already assembled the keyboard, but it seems like wasting my time (with no communication whatsoever) was the path I chose -.-
Will report back on the cutout as soon as I have the plate :thumb:
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 14:37:38
I have another feature request. Maybe cutouts for PCB mount cherry stabs with 5mm plates would be nice to have. I've got a rough example here (https://puu.sh/qdbRm/811b2006e2.png), the cutouts are on the bigger side in this example, but I didn't want to have a plate I can't use as my first prototype. If everything goes to plan I'll have the plate next week, I should be able to correct and share the measurements by then.Let me know how it goes. :)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Update: The guy who told me he would make it for me apparently spent 2 weeks sourcing the right acrylic (still not finding any), after I told him to just do it in black because I need it soon he asked me what soon meant. I answered 8 days max. (formulor, the german ponoko, says their stuff can take up to 8 days) and he told me this isn't even close to what he could do and that he would take waaay longer (WTF).
I ordered through formulor now (rip 50 bucks holy ****) and hope my file didn't get messed up while I converted it. I could have already assembled the keyboard, but it seems like wasting my time (with no communication whatsoever) was the path I chose -.-
Will report back on the cutout as soon as I have the plate :thumb:
Haha, ya sorry that was such a nightmare. Hopefully everything goes smoothly. :)
Post by: duynguyenle on Mon, 29 August 2016, 15:37:00
*what most people will want.
*Citation needed
Just look at what comes up on /r/mk :P Acrylic is the most popular sandwich middle.
True. But then again most of the posts on /r/mk is people asking whether the Corsair K70 or Razer keyboards are more suitable at making them a god at Counter Strike. :p
Never been really drawn into the multilayered acrylic look tbh, you end up having to add a rather substantial bezel for the screw holes and it just ends up looking really tacky :rolleyes:
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 16:14:05
True. But then again most of the posts on /r/mk is people asking whether the Corsair K70 or Razer keyboards are more suitable at making them a god at Counter Strike. :p
Never been really drawn into the multilayered acrylic look tbh, you end up having to add a rather substantial bezel for the screw holes and it just ends up looking really tacky :rolleyes:
Sure, sure, and I agree. But the one thing that /r/mk does well is have a lot of pictures. Layered sheet metal is not popular. Should it be the default?
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 16:41:03
Yes it should be the default. It is the materials we have available right now. If someone is going to build a case they will likely want all the layers. If some are set to zero and others are not it adds more confusion. "why are these zero and the others aren't? "
True. But then again most of the posts on /r/mk is people asking whether the Corsair K70 or Razer keyboards are more suitable at making them a god at Counter Strike.
Never been really drawn into the multilayered acrylic look tbh, you end up having to add a rather substantial bezel for the screw holes and it just ends up looking really tacky :rolleyes:
Sure, sure, and I agree. But the one thing that /r/mk does well is have a lot of pictures. Layered sheet metal is not popular. Should it be the default?
I think the functionality is correctly presented right now.
Post by: regack on Mon, 29 August 2016, 19:23:39
Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Why can't you just put the quantity to zero for the sandwich layers and just order 1xtop and 1xbottom?
You can. :)
Swill, so first off, this is a REALLY REALLY AMAZING feature added to your already great toolbox! Unfortunately, as I was trying this (set one middle layer to QTY 0) and I get an error.
It's not specific, just... 'Error'.
[attach=1]
I was also thinking, is it possible to add the ability to change the size of the holes on the bottom plate through your tool. I'd love to spec the bottom plate to 3mm and have the holes drilled a little smaller so I can tap them for screws coming in from the top.
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 19:56:12
Nice to see you around here regack. :)Trust me, it is not worth it, especially when you can just not use the middle layers and you get the same functionality. I am not sure why we would want to add such an option when you can just not use a couple layers and you get the same thing.
The part that I did not like was being presented with a quote for $200 when I only needed $100 worth of cuts. That initial sticker shock is a killjoy. Do you anticipate many people using LG to cut the inner layers out of steel plate?
Why can't you just put the quantity to zero for the sandwich layers and just order 1xtop and 1xbottom?
You can. :)
Swill, so first off, this is a REALLY REALLY AMAZING feature added to your already great toolbox! Unfortunately, as I was trying this (set one middle layer to QTY 0) and I get an error.
It's not specific, just... 'Error'.
(Attachment Link)
I was also thinking, is it possible to add the ability to change the size of the holes on the bottom plate through your tool. I'd love to spec the bottom plate to 3mm and have the holes drilled a little smaller so I can tap them for screws coming in from the top.
Yes, I know there are some intermittent problems tonight. Someone let me know on Twitter earlier. I will look at it later tonight after the lil guy is asleep. I think some work was done on the API earlier, but I will reproduce and fix tonight if it is my app.
Regarding the different holes, that is short term road map. I don't have a definite timeline, but some planning has been done.
How it will probably be implemented: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2231247#msg2231247
More details on some of the options that will be available are here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2230858#msg2230858
I can explain better later if you have questions.
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 20:15:36
Quote from: regack
I'd love to spec the bottom plate to 3mm and have the holes drilled a little smaller so I can tap them for screws coming in from the top.
This is basically what I did. I tapped all layers for mine, but the middle are wood, so very forgiving. Top and bottom tap would be perfect.
I did 1.5mm for top and 3mm bottom plate in brass and it is great.
One thing to consider with a 3mm bottom plate, there will be no bending it with your hands if it is not perfectly flat. Mine is pretty good, but not perfect.
1.5mm or 2mm of steel would be enough if you are worried about a solid tap.
Don't take this as a reason not to do it. It is a great idea and I am happy with my decision. Just figured I would pass on the experience.
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 29 August 2016, 20:58:55
Min. hole diameter for 1.0mm thickness: 2.5mm
Min. hole diameter for 1.5mm thickness: 3.0mm
Min. hole diameter for 2.0mm thickness: 4.0mm
Min. hole diameter for 3.0mm thickness: 6.5mm
http://lasergist.com/design-guidelines/
Should your tool flag for that?
Post by: swill on Mon, 29 August 2016, 21:10:20
Lasergist has a recommended min hole size for various plate thicknesses. 1.5mm has a recommended 4mm min diameter hole.I will talk to them and see if that is a real issue and not just a guide for randoms. They have a 0.15mm kerf, so I doubt that would actually be a problem.
Min. hole diameter for 1.0mm thickness: 2.5mm
Min. hole diameter for 1.5mm thickness: 3.0mm
Min. hole diameter for 2.0mm thickness: 4.0mm
Min. hole diameter for 3.0mm thickness: 6.5mm
http://lasergist.com/design-guidelines/
Should your tool flag for that?
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 August 2016, 00:02:22
The problem of Zero not being a valid Qty is still outstanding, but once that is resolved on lasergist's side, everything will be working correctly again.
Let me know if you guys run into any other issues. Thanks...
Post by: IBNobody on Tue, 30 August 2016, 00:21:21
I will talk to them and see if that is a real issue and not just a guide for randoms. They have a 0.15mm kerf, so I doubt that would actually be a problem.
Cool. I am interested in hearing why they have the limit. My gut says that it has to do with metal slag.
When I laser acrylic, I've found that if the cutouts are too narrow, the cut material sometimes melts back to the edge.
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 30 August 2016, 00:56:40
I will talk to them and see if that is a real issue and not just a guide for randoms. They have a 0.15mm kerf, so I doubt that would actually be a problem.
Cool. I am interested in hearing why they have the limit. My gut says that it has to do with metal slag.
When I laser acrylic, I've found that if the cutouts are too narrow, the cut material sometimes melts back to the edge.
This stands as a general guideline. You can't imagine what we're seeing daily at lasergist... From scanned drawings to things like 2mm gears in 3mm thick stainless steel....
Some sort of rules must be there for the 90% of applications. In this application this really doesn't apply. For 1.0 and 1.5 mm you can safely have holes of 2mm and up. For 3.0mm, it's better to have holes larger than 3.5mm. The actual reason for having such limitations is the lead-in of the laser. The laser doesn't just start cutting where the path is; it first goes a few mm away, pierces the metal and then goes to the line and follows it.
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 30 August 2016, 00:59:58
Quote from: regackI'd love to spec the bottom plate to 3mm and have the holes drilled a little smaller so I can tap them for screws coming in from the top.
This is basically what I did. I tapped all layers for mine, but the middle are wood, so very forgiving. Top and bottom tap would be perfect.
I did 1.5mm for top and 3mm bottom plate in brass and it is great.
One thing to consider with a 3mm bottom plate, there will be no bending it with your hands if it is not perfectly flat. Mine is pretty good, but not perfect.
1.5mm or 2mm of steel would be enough if you are worried about a solid tap.
Don't take this as a reason not to do it. It is a great idea and I am happy with my decision. Just figured I would pass on the experience.
I confirm that 1.5mm and 2mm are totally fine for tapping. If there is interest for this we can do the tapping here... Just saying...
Post by: IBNobody on Tue, 30 August 2016, 07:17:55
This stands as a general guideline. You can't imagine what we're seeing daily at lasergist... From scanned drawings to things like 2mm gears in 3mm thick stainless steel....
Some sort of rules must be there for the 90% of applications. In this application this really doesn't apply. For 1.0 and 1.5 mm you can safely have holes of 2mm and up. For 3.0mm, it's better to have holes larger than 3.5mm. The actual reason for having such limitations is the lead-in of the laser. The laser doesn't just start cutting where the path is; it first goes a few mm away, pierces the metal and then goes to the line and follows it.
Ah, so in that regard your laser setup is like a water jet cutter. Interesting.
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 30 August 2016, 07:45:44
This stands as a general guideline. You can't imagine what we're seeing daily at lasergist... From scanned drawings to things like 2mm gears in 3mm thick stainless steel....
Some sort of rules must be there for the 90% of applications. In this application this really doesn't apply. For 1.0 and 1.5 mm you can safely have holes of 2mm and up. For 3.0mm, it's better to have holes larger than 3.5mm. The actual reason for having such limitations is the lead-in of the laser. The laser doesn't just start cutting where the path is; it first goes a few mm away, pierces the metal and then goes to the line and follows it.
Ah, so in that regard your laser setup is like a water jet cutter. Interesting.
Actually all laser systems for metal cutting (at least the ones that I am aware of) are like this. Acrylic, paper and some times wood do not require this.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 30 August 2016, 07:53:48
This stands as a general guideline. You can't imagine what we're seeing daily at lasergist... From scanned drawings to things like 2mm gears in 3mm thick stainless steel....
Some sort of rules must be there for the 90% of applications. In this application this really doesn't apply. For 1.0 and 1.5 mm you can safely have holes of 2mm and up. For 3.0mm, it's better to have holes larger than 3.5mm. The actual reason for having such limitations is the lead-in of the laser. The laser doesn't just start cutting where the path is; it first goes a few mm away, pierces the metal and then goes to the line and follows it.
Ah, so in that regard your laser setup is like a water jet cutter. Interesting.
Actually all laser systems for metal cutting (at least the ones that I am aware of) are like this. Acrylic, paper and some times wood do not require this.
Very interesting details on how the laser machine works.
Post by: IBNobody on Tue, 30 August 2016, 09:02:01
Actually all laser systems for metal cutting (at least the ones that I am aware of) are like this. Acrylic, paper and some times wood do not require this.
::sigh:: Laser Envy. I have access to a Trotec Speedy 300 which is 80W and is meant for wood and acrylic. The software doesn't let you add lead ins or account for kerf. Oh well. Glad you guys could step in.
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 30 August 2016, 10:08:50
Actually all laser systems for metal cutting (at least the ones that I am aware of) are like this. Acrylic, paper and some times wood do not require this.
::sigh:: Laser Envy. I have access to a Trotec Speedy 300 which is 80W and is meant for wood and acrylic. The software doesn't let you add lead ins or account for kerf. Oh well. Glad you guys could step in.
1300W-4800W :) (funnily enough the 1300W is better in thicker materials)
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 30 August 2016, 12:10:57
Enjoy and of course if you notice anything please let me know!
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 August 2016, 12:52:14
Hello everybody, we're all set. The zero values now work properly! :D
Enjoy and of course if you notice anything please let me know!
Nice work!!! Thank you for the quick turn around on that. :)
Post by: regack on Tue, 30 August 2016, 13:05:55
Hello everybody, we're all set. The zero values now work properly! :D
Enjoy and of course if you notice anything please let me know!
Nice work!!! Thank you for the quick turn around on that. :)
Thanks to you both! I think I'll just tap everything and change the bottom plate back down to 1.5mm.
Post by: swill on Tue, 30 August 2016, 14:13:39
Hello everybody, we're all set. The zero values now work properly! :D
Enjoy and of course if you notice anything please let me know!
Nice work!!! Thank you for the quick turn around on that. :)
Thanks to you both! I think I'll just tap everything and change the bottom plate back down to 1.5mm.
ya, that is what I did. i used wooden skewers to make sure the holes where all aligned (and stayed aligned) and then clamped all the layers together while i tapped the whole case. just take it slow and clean the tap every couple turns.
one thing to note. you will likely be at the very edge regarding the length of the tap and the distance to tap. you may want to confirm that your tap is long enough to make it through all the layers in a single tap. you can't just start tapping from the other side or it will mess up your existing threads. luckily i had 3 different taps for the size i tapping and i was lucky and had one that was long enough. check on this because it is very likely that your tap will not be long enough to tap all the layers at once.
i just realized, but what you could do is tap all the holes as deep as you can and then remove the top couple layers and clamp it all together again and then tap the bottom layers by matching the threads you just tapped (partway through the case) down through the bottom. that will work... :)
Post by: duynguyenle on Tue, 30 August 2016, 18:27:15
I had to generate the plate again for my Dell ISO Alps plate, I think the tool actually generates the stabiliser holes in the wrong orientation
This is the output I got:
(http://i.imgur.com/PEu2C2d.png)
It should be the other way around like this photo I took here of another plate I had (i.e. stab holes on the right hand side of the switch
(http://i.imgur.com/sMusXUy.jpg)
I must've manually corrected it before and forgot about it.
Just for reference, here's the raw output from KLE:
["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
The stabiliser hole for the Capslock position is a bit peculiar, but I think you're already aware of that. I didn't notice this before because Dell ISO capslocks are stepped so you don't need those stabilisers. I don't know if it's strictly necessary to stabilise capslock key, I think it's probably OK without, but I am unsure what Alps' official recommendation would be.
Post by: emdude on Tue, 30 August 2016, 18:48:26
Hi swill,
I had to generate the plate again for my Dell ISO Alps plate, I think the tool actually generates the stabiliser holes in the wrong orientation
This is the output I got:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/PEu2C2d.png)
It should be the other way around like this photo I took here of another plate I had (i.e. stab holes on the right hand side of the switchShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/sMusXUy.jpg)
I must've manually corrected it before and forgot about it.
Just for reference, here's the raw output from KLE:
["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
The stabiliser hole for the Capslock position is a bit peculiar, but I think you're already aware of that. I didn't notice this before because Dell ISO capslocks are stepped so you don't need those stabilisers. I don't know if it's strictly necessary to stabilise capslock key, I think it's probably OK without, but I am unsure what Alps' official recommendation would be.
Swill mentioned this earlier, you can remove the stab cutouts for that particular key with "{_s:0}."
He mentioned that it would be difficult to remove the stabs for that key by default without disabling stabs for all 1.75u keys. I've thought about it, and I don't think it would be a bad idea since Tai-Hao do not have their 1.75u keys stabilized.
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 31 August 2016, 13:26:50
Unfortunately the shop I intend to order plates from is currently swamped with two big commercial contracts, so I will have to wait a bit to confirm on actual hardware. Stay tuned!
Post by: lasergist on Wed, 31 August 2016, 13:42:21
Unfortunately the shop I intend to order plates from is currently swamped with two big commercial contracts, so I will have to wait a bit to confirm on actual hardware.
Hmmm... Hello!
Post by: swill on Wed, 31 August 2016, 13:50:05
Unfortunately the shop I intend to order plates from is currently swamped with two big commercial contracts, so I will have to wait a bit to confirm on actual hardware.
Hmmm... Hello!
If I remember correctly, the pricing he was getting from his local shop was pretty impossible to beat. :)
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 31 August 2016, 15:11:20
Unfortunately the shop I intend to order plates from is currently swamped with two big commercial contracts, so I will have to wait a bit to confirm on actual hardware.
Hmmm... Hello!
If I remember correctly, the pricing he was getting from his local shop was pretty impossible to beat. :)
Dingdingding! Sorry for one-off plates I would definitely consider lasergist but since I am also planning to cut quite a few cherry mx 1800 plates, I can get pretty decent pricing (about £17 for a 60% sized plate) so it makes sense for me to tack it on to my planned order :thumb:
Also the shop is 500m away from the main office I work at, so no postage fee ;D
Post by: swill on Fri, 02 September 2016, 17:40:01
Tonight I pushed the addition of a Top Layer which has cutouts for the keycaps and will make the case not feel so 'low profile'.
I have not added any ability to customize it at this point. It basically cuts a 19.05mm square hole for each unit of switch drawn.
Let me know what you guys think...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: IBNobody on Sat, 03 September 2016, 00:46:12
Small Update
Tonight I pushed the addition of a Top Layer which has cutouts for the keycaps and will make the case not feel so 'low profile'.
I have not added any ability to customize it at this point. It basically cuts a 19.05mm square hole for each unit of switch drawn.
Let me know what you guys think...
It seems to work, and it is a nice option... But now you've added an extra layer to turn off for people who just want a top and bottom. It is confusing because now you call it a top plate, whereas before the top plate was the switch plate. It would be cleaner if you added it as a new type of case, and added a top/bottom only case to boot.
Anyways...What would you customize about it?
Post by: derezzed on Sat, 03 September 2016, 01:35:01
[attach=1]
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
[attach=2]
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
[attach=3]
Post by: Edde on Sat, 03 September 2016, 02:25:09
Small UpdateLooks good, the only problem is that ISO enter generates a small bar, but that's not too big of a deal.
Tonight I pushed the addition of a Top Layer which has cutouts for the keycaps and will make the case not feel so 'low profile'.
I have not added any ability to customize it at this point. It basically cuts a 19.05mm square hole for each unit of switch drawn.
Let me know what you guys think...
(Attachment Link)
Post by: tobsn on Sat, 03 September 2016, 04:25:58
Maybe even automatically suggest a height and send it off to Ponoko for acrylic middle layers?
Also front aluminum and back steel.
Essentially you could then pick the layout, set M3, send off the front and back to lasergist, the middle layers to ponoko and all you need is 8-12mm hey spacers and screws. in case you want countersunk you just need to take the front/back and drill those with a countersink drill bit.
Post by: Charger on Sat, 03 September 2016, 06:37:26
The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.I wouldn't trust it to work unless it was tested or confirmed by someone. I seem to recall the default 10 keyless does not make a usable phantom plate.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 09:13:24
I will check that tonight. Thanks for the report.Small UpdateLooks good, the only problem is that ISO enter generates a small bar, but that's not too big of a deal.
Tonight I pushed the addition of a Top Layer which has cutouts for the keycaps and will make the case not feel so 'low profile'.
I have not added any ability to customize it at this point. It basically cuts a 19.05mm square hole for each unit of switch drawn.
Let me know what you guys think...
(Attachment Link)
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 09:22:26
What would be nice for the front/back and middle layers: Defaults for M2/M3 via drop down and have for the middle layers optional set to M2/M3 hex spacer cut outs. also interesting would be a minimum spacing to edge/baseplate for countersunk screws (2xDiameter on M2/3 screws).Honestly, I did not follow you here. Maybe it is too early. Are you asking for a default value of 3mm be entered for the hole if you select sandwich and the padding and edge with and everything will update to reflect that default? Sorry I'm a bit confused.
Maybe even automatically suggest a height and send it off to Ponoko for acrylic middle layers?
Also front aluminum and back steel.
Essentially you could then pick the layout, set M3, send off the front and back to lasergist, the middle layers to ponoko and all you need is 8-12mm hey spacers and screws. in case you want countersunk you just need to take the front/back and drill those with a countersink drill bit.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 09:25:43
The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.Well layout that got drawn is wrong because you are missing the 3 right most keys.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
That layout "should" work if drawn correctly, but no one has confirmed if the plate fits into the case, so someone would have to try it. Printing to scale and trying in the case is probably your best bet.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 09:30:28
The reason the TKL layout (or 104) does not work is because whoever created the TKL layout on KLE did not actually make it standard. They have the wrong about of space between the keys on the left and the arrow and paging cluster.The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.I wouldn't trust it to work unless it was tested or confirmed by someone. I seem to recall the default 10 keyless does not make a usable phantom plate.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
That has nothing to do with the tool and is more about the input just being wrong for that layout on KLE. I have not gotten around to figuring out the correct values and sending a PR to KLE.
Post by: IBNobody on Sat, 03 September 2016, 11:34:37
The reason the TKL layout (or 104) does not work is because whoever created the TKL layout on KLE did not actually make it standard. They have the wrong about of space between the keys on the left and the arrow and paging cluster.
That has nothing to do with the tool and is more about the input just being wrong for that layout on KLE. I have not gotten around to figuring out the correct values and sending a PR to KLE.
Hmm... There is no TKL on there anymore, and the ANSI104 appears to have the "proper" spacing. .5U between F keys and numerals, 0.25U between arrow clusters, numpad, etc. Are you saying that the official spacing is not a multiple of U's? Or was the problem corrected?
For reference, I used WASD's image.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/104-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 12:22:09
According to @jdcarpe the spacing between those clusters are not simple fractional unit distances (like 0.25 or 0.5). I still have to measure and verify what the values should be. I don't think there has ever been a TKL layout on KLE, people use the 104 and remove the numpad to create a TKL.The reason the TKL layout (or 104) does not work is because whoever created the TKL layout on KLE did not actually make it standard. They have the wrong about of space between the keys on the left and the arrow and paging cluster.
That has nothing to do with the tool and is more about the input just being wrong for that layout on KLE. I have not gotten around to figuring out the correct values and sending a PR to KLE.
Hmm... There is no TKL on there anymore, and the ANSI104 appears to have the "proper" spacing. .5U between F keys and numerals, 0.25U between arrow clusters, numpad, etc. Are you saying that the official spacing is not a multiple of U's? Or was the problem corrected?
For reference, I used WASD's image.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/104-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html
When I add preset layouts, I will make sure the preset layouts are correct. This is on the short term road map.
I have a universal TKL plate, so I will try to reproduce that. Will take a while with a caliper, but I think it will be useful for people if I add it.
Post by: IBNobody on Sat, 03 September 2016, 15:03:17
According to @jdcarpe the spacing between those clusters are not simple fractional unit distances (like 0.25 or 0.5). I still have to measure and verify what the values should be. I don't think there has ever been a TKL layout on KLE, people use the 104 and remove the numpad to create a TKL.
When I add preset layouts, I will make sure the preset layouts are correct. This is on the short term road map.
I have a universal TKL plate, so I will try to reproduce that. Will take a while with a caliper, but I think it will be useful for people if I add it.
I just measured my Corsair K95, and it looked like the center-to-center difference between F12 and PrtSc was ~24mm. 1.25U = 23.76mm. What does the ANSI specification say is the official spacing?
Post by: Charger on Sat, 03 September 2016, 19:11:25
I didn't mean to make it sound like it was the tool that was the problem I have not had any problems with the tool with 4 keyboards I have made with it.The reason the TKL layout (or 104) does not work is because whoever created the TKL layout on KLE did not actually make it standard. They have the wrong about of space between the keys on the left and the arrow and paging cluster.The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.I wouldn't trust it to work unless it was tested or confirmed by someone. I seem to recall the default 10 keyless does not make a usable phantom plate.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
That has nothing to do with the tool and is more about the input just being wrong for that layout on KLE. I have not gotten around to figuring out the correct values and sending a PR to KLE.
Post by: swill on Sat, 03 September 2016, 19:35:23
That's great to hear. :)I didn't mean to make it sound like it was the tool that was the problem I have not had any problems with the tool with 4 keyboards I have made with it.The reason the TKL layout (or 104) does not work is because whoever created the TKL layout on KLE did not actually make it standard. They have the wrong about of space between the keys on the left and the arrow and paging cluster.The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.I wouldn't trust it to work unless it was tested or confirmed by someone. I seem to recall the default 10 keyless does not make a usable phantom plate.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
That has nothing to do with the tool and is more about the input just being wrong for that layout on KLE. I have not gotten around to figuring out the correct values and sending a PR to KLE.
I really just want people to be aware that KLE may not be correct, so double check it. I think I remember someone mentioning that it did not work, but I am not sure.
Post by: kyle7333 on Sat, 03 September 2016, 20:16:18
EDIT: I got it figured out. All you have to do is right click on the SVG button then it lets you save it properly.
Post by: derezzed on Sun, 04 September 2016, 21:22:10
I am trying to make a sandwich case for a planck and I am having trouble saving the SVG file. Actually it doesn't even let me save it at all. Can someone tell me how to save it as a .SVG so I can combine the files in Inkscape all on the p2 template? If it makes a difference I am using a mac.
EDIT: I got it figured out. All you have to do is right click on the SVG button then it lets you save it properly.
That's a lot simpler than my solution. I clicked the SVG button to generate the SVG. Then, I right-clicked the webpage and selected View Page Source. Then I typed Ctrl A, then Ctrl C to copy the XML. Then, I opened Notepad ( I don't know what the Mac equivalent of Notepad is) and pasted the XML into Notepad. Then I selected Save As from the Notepad menu, changed the file type to All Files. Then I saved the file with a .SVG file extension.
Post by: swill on Sun, 04 September 2016, 22:36:22
I am trying to make a sandwich case for a planck and I am having trouble saving the SVG file. Actually it doesn't even let me save it at all. Can someone tell me how to save it as a .SVG so I can combine the files in Inkscape all on the p2 template? If it makes a difference I am using a mac.
EDIT: I got it figured out. All you have to do is right click on the SVG button then it lets you save it properly.
That's a lot simpler than my solution. I clicked the SVG button to generate the SVG. Then, I right-clicked the webpage and selected View Page Source. Then I typed Ctrl A, then Ctrl C to copy the XML. Then, I opened Notepad ( I don't know what the Mac equivalent of Notepad is) and pasted the XML into Notepad. Then I selected Save As from the Notepad menu, changed the file type to All Files. Then I saved the file with a .SVG file extension.
What browsers are you using on which OS? I thought I had click to download working in all browsers, but apparently not. Thanks for reporting this...
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 05 September 2016, 20:55:58
What browsers are you using on which OS? I thought I had click to download working in all browsers, but apparently not. Thanks for reporting this...
Firefox on Win 7.
Post by: swill on Mon, 05 September 2016, 21:30:22
OK. I will see if I can install a windows VM to do some testing. Thx...
What browsers are you using on which OS? I thought I had click to download working in all browsers, but apparently not. Thanks for reporting this...
Firefox on Win 7.
Post by: tobsn on Tue, 06 September 2016, 12:23:49
What would be nice for the front/back and middle layers: Defaults for M2/M3 via drop down and have for the middle layers optional set to M2/M3 hex spacer cut outs. also interesting would be a minimum spacing to edge/baseplate for countersunk screws (2xDiameter on M2/3 screws).Honestly, I did not follow you here. Maybe it is too early. Are you asking for a default value of 3mm be entered for the hole if you select sandwich and the padding and edge with and everything will update to reflect that default? Sorry I'm a bit confused.
Maybe even automatically suggest a height and send it off to Ponoko for acrylic middle layers?
Also front aluminum and back steel.
Essentially you could then pick the layout, set M3, send off the front and back to lasergist, the middle layers to ponoko and all you need is 8-12mm hey spacers and screws. in case you want countersunk you just need to take the front/back and drill those with a countersink drill bit.
I was suggesting it would be handy to have M3 and M2 presets for 1.97/2.97mm holes or whatever generally fits best for M2/M3 screws. Then based on the M2/M3 have the middle layers instead of holes be able to have hex spacer cutouts fitting M2/M3 hex spacers.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 September 2016, 13:20:29
What would be nice for the front/back and middle layers: Defaults for M2/M3 via drop down and have for the middle layers optional set to M2/M3 hex spacer cut outs. also interesting would be a minimum spacing to edge/baseplate for countersunk screws (2xDiameter on M2/3 screws).Honestly, I did not follow you here. Maybe it is too early. Are you asking for a default value of 3mm be entered for the hole if you select sandwich and the padding and edge with and everything will update to reflect that default? Sorry I'm a bit confused.
Maybe even automatically suggest a height and send it off to Ponoko for acrylic middle layers?
Also front aluminum and back steel.
Essentially you could then pick the layout, set M3, send off the front and back to lasergist, the middle layers to ponoko and all you need is 8-12mm hey spacers and screws. in case you want countersunk you just need to take the front/back and drill those with a countersink drill bit.
I was suggesting it would be handy to have M3 and M2 presets for 1.97/2.97mm holes or whatever generally fits best for M2/M3 screws. Then based on the M2/M3 have the middle layers instead of holes be able to have hex spacer cutouts fitting M2/M3 hex spacers.
So you want to put a hex spacer inside the middle layers? Why would you do that? If you did that, it would increase the bezel size a lot and I don't see what the benefit of doing that would be. Maybe I don't understand the purpose of putting a hex spacer inside the case.
Edit: That came across as rude. Sorry, I don't mean to belittle the idea, just trying to understand why we would do it.
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 September 2016, 15:02:45
What would be nice for the front/back and middle layers: Defaults for M2/M3 via drop down and have for the middle layers optional set to M2/M3 hex spacer cut outs. also interesting would be a minimum spacing to edge/baseplate for countersunk screws (2xDiameter on M2/3 screws).Honestly, I did not follow you here. Maybe it is too early. Are you asking for a default value of 3mm be entered for the hole if you select sandwich and the padding and edge with and everything will update to reflect that default? Sorry I'm a bit confused.
Maybe even automatically suggest a height and send it off to Ponoko for acrylic middle layers?
Also front aluminum and back steel.
Essentially you could then pick the layout, set M3, send off the front and back to lasergist, the middle layers to ponoko and all you need is 8-12mm hey spacers and screws. in case you want countersunk you just need to take the front/back and drill those with a countersink drill bit.
I was suggesting it would be handy to have M3 and M2 presets for 1.97/2.97mm holes or whatever generally fits best for M2/M3 screws. Then based on the M2/M3 have the middle layers instead of holes be able to have hex spacer cutouts fitting M2/M3 hex spacers.
So you want to put a hex spacer inside the middle layers? Why would you do that? If you did that, it would increase the bezel size a lot and I don't see what the benefit of doing that would be. Maybe I don't understand the purpose of putting a hex spacer inside the case.
Edit: That came across as rude. Sorry, I don't mean to belittle the idea, just trying to understand why we would do it.
This is something I've considered doing in my fork. The bezel has to be wider, yes, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Consider the skeleton case, where you have a top plate and a bottom plate held together by spacers. Wouldn't it be nice to put a middle layer there instead, but still have flat screws on top and bottom for an overall flat profile?
And in the grand scheme you don't need a particularly wide bezel. Mine is around 10mm which accommodates a #8 screw very nicely. An M3 would be slightly smaller, and work just as well.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 September 2016, 15:32:31
Edit to add references:
- http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
- http://www.shender4.com/metric_thread_chart.htm
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 September 2016, 17:09:14
Why wouldn't you just make all the layers have 3.5mm screw holes except the bottom which would have 2.5mm and then tap the bottom layer? Then you can just screw the bottom plate onto the case from the top and you have no screw heads on the bottom. If you want, you could even counter sink the holes on the top if that is important to you.
Edit to add references:
- http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
- http://www.shender4.com/metric_thread_chart.htm
That's another approach, yes. It depends on the aesthetics and functionality you're going for. I'm currently tapping the bottom plate and counter sinking the top plate, but that means that when a keyboard is taken apart I have 3+ layers to deal with. Some people may want to be able to remove the bottom plate without separating the rest of the layers, and this would allow them to do that. (There are others way to do that for sure, like tapping all layers or tapping the top layer and countersinking the bottom, but they each have their own tradeoffs.)
That being said, even if this does provide enough use cases that you decide it's useful, I would still put it pretty low on the priority list. This could be done afterward in CAD for one-offs, or by using your polygon functionality. It's not as convenient as having a preset available, but it will get the job done.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 September 2016, 17:14:29
Yes the polygon feature will make this easy once it is available.Why wouldn't you just make all the layers have 3.5mm screw holes except the bottom which would have 2.5mm and then tap the bottom layer? Then you can just screw the bottom plate onto the case from the top and you have no screw heads on the bottom. If you want, you could even counter sink the holes on the top if that is important to you.
Edit to add references:
- http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
- http://www.shender4.com/metric_thread_chart.htm
That's another approach, yes. It depends on the aesthetics and functionality you're going for. I'm currently tapping the bottom plate and counter sinking the top plate, but that means that when a keyboard is taken apart I have 3+ layers to deal with. Some people may want to be able to remove the bottom plate without separating the rest of the layers, and this would allow them to do that. (There are others way to do that for sure, like tapping all layers or tapping the top layer and countersinking the bottom, but they each have their own tradeoffs.)
That being said, even if this does provide enough use cases that you decide it's useful, I would still put it pretty low on the priority list. This could be done afterward in CAD for one-offs, or by using your polygon functionality. It's not as convenient as having a preset available, but it will get the job done.
I currently have all layers of my case tapped, but if I did it again, I would just tap the bottom plate. Or maybe the bottom 2 plates so I could take the bottom off without everything coming apart.
If you use her middle layers then they will all come apart when you take the bottom off, so that does not solve that problem because those layers are not held by anything but the tension of the screws between the top and bottom screws (unless I am missing something).
Post by: skullydazed on Tue, 06 September 2016, 18:40:55
If you use her middle layers then they will all come apart when you take the bottom off, so that does not solve that problem because those layers are not held by anything but the tension of the screws between the top and bottom screws (unless I am missing something).
If the hole+kerf is specified carefully you could press fit the hex spacer. Or glue it in.
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 03:39:48
Yes the polygon feature will make this easy once it is available.Why wouldn't you just make all the layers have 3.5mm screw holes except the bottom which would have 2.5mm and then tap the bottom layer? Then you can just screw the bottom plate onto the case from the top and you have no screw heads on the bottom. If you want, you could even counter sink the holes on the top if that is important to you.
Edit to add references:
- http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
- http://www.shender4.com/metric_thread_chart.htm
That's another approach, yes. It depends on the aesthetics and functionality you're going for. I'm currently tapping the bottom plate and counter sinking the top plate, but that means that when a keyboard is taken apart I have 3+ layers to deal with. Some people may want to be able to remove the bottom plate without separating the rest of the layers, and this would allow them to do that. (There are others way to do that for sure, like tapping all layers or tapping the top layer and countersinking the bottom, but they each have their own tradeoffs.)
That being said, even if this does provide enough use cases that you decide it's useful, I would still put it pretty low on the priority list. This could be done afterward in CAD for one-offs, or by using your polygon functionality. It's not as convenient as having a preset available, but it will get the job done.
I currently have all layers of my case tapped, but if I did it again, I would just tap the bottom plate. Or maybe the bottom 2 plates so I could take the bottom off without everything coming apart.
If you use her middle layers then they will all come apart when you take the bottom off, so that does not solve that problem because those layers are not held by anything but the tension of the screws between the top and bottom screws (unless I am missing something).
can you explain the "tapping" of the bottom layer? i don't know what's you mean with that - thanks!
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 07 September 2016, 06:12:47
can you explain the "tapping" of the bottom layer? i don't know what's you mean with that - thanks!
Tapping means creating threads for fasteners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_and_die
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:07:57
Tapping means creating threads for fasteners
fasteners? or just screw the screw into the thread?
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:15:13
Yes. By fastener, he means screws. Basically, by making the holes smaller in the bottom layer(s) and then tapping them, you can put screws through the top layer holes and screw them into the bottom layer holes. This way the case is held together without the need for any screw heads on the bottom.Tapping means creating threads for fasteners
fasteners? or just screw the screw into the thread?
Is that clearer?
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:22:55
Yes. By fastener, he means screws. Basically, by making the holes smaller in the bottom layer(s) and then tapping them, you can put screws through the top layer holes and screw them into the bottom layer holes. This way the case is held together without the need for any screw heads on the bottom.
Oh... so you would make 2.97mm holes on the top and 2mm holes in the bottom, thread the bottom holes, and then do 1.5mm top plate + 1.5mm bottom plate + 12mm space in between = 15mm long M3 screw - correct?
whats in between though? just hollow spacers?
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:34:20
So if you use M3 screws, then the top plates would have holes 3.4mm in diameter and the bottom layers would have holes 2.5mm in diameter which you would tap. The middle layers would be open or closed sandwich layers.Yes. By fastener, he means screws. Basically, by making the holes smaller in the bottom layer(s) and then tapping them, you can put screws through the top layer holes and screw them into the bottom layer holes. This way the case is held together without the need for any screw heads on the bottom.
Oh... so you would make 2.97mm holes on the top and 2mm holes in the bottom, thread the bottom holes, and then do 1.5mm top plate + 1.5mm bottom plate + 12mm space in between = 15mm long M3 screw - correct?
whats in between though? just hollow spacers?
If you want to leave the middle layers open, then you can just do standoffs in the middle like the original JD40 keyboards. But the layers do not need to be threaded for that.
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:42:26
So if you use M3 screws, then the top plates would have holes 3.4mm in diameter and the bottom layers would have holes 2.5mm in diameter which you would tap. The middle layers would be open or closed sandwich layers.
Why 3.4mm? The diameter of the thread of a M3 screw is 3mm, hence you normally leave a hole 2.97-2.98 and it fits through just fine. 3.4 would add 0.4+mm space.
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 08:52:37
So if you use M3 screws, then the top plates would have holes 3.4mm in diameter and the bottom layers would have holes 2.5mm in diameter which you would tap. The middle layers would be open or closed sandwich layers.
Why 3.4mm? The diameter of the thread of a M3 screw is 3mm, hence you normally leave a hole 2.97-2.98 and it fits through just fine. 3.4 would add 0.4+mm space.
From this: http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
If you want a close fit, you could go 3.2mm. Keep in mind that the accuracy of the tool is at best +/- .1mm, so don't try push it too close... I would probably do something like 3.3 to be safe...
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:14:34
From this: http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
If you want a close fit, you could go 3.2mm. Keep in mind that the accuracy of the tool is at best +/- .1mm, so don't try push it too close... I would probably do something like 3.3 to be safe...
why does then everyone recommend to stay under 3mm? thats odd... alright
Post by: skullydazed on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:18:02
From this: http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
If you want a close fit, you could go 3.2mm. Keep in mind that the accuracy of the tool is at best +/- .1mm, so don't try push it too close... I would probably do something like 3.3 to be safe...
why does then everyone recommend to stay under 3mm? thats odd... alright
I'm not sure where you're seeing that recommendation, but keep in mind that the outer diameter of the screw threads on an ideal M3 is exactly 3mm. If you want a shaft that's exactly 3mm in diameter to fit into a hole you need a hole that is larger than 3mm. The most common size to accommodate that is 3.4mm, because that's loose enough to allow the screw to enter when not perfectly orthogonal to the hole, and yet tight enough to not have very much play when inserted.
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:19:43
From this: http://www.amesweb.info/Screws/ClearanceHolesMetricFasteners.aspx
If you want a close fit, you could go 3.2mm. Keep in mind that the accuracy of the tool is at best +/- .1mm, so don't try push it too close... I would probably do something like 3.3 to be safe...
why does then everyone recommend to stay under 3mm? thats odd... alright
I am not sure why that is. Hopefully someone can explain that. I just put a caliper on an M3 screw that I have here (which I am using for my case) and it measures to be 2.9mm diameter. If I put the space as 3.0mm, it does work well, but I don't know if we can trust the tooling to give us exactly that size. So I think it is up to you for what you are comfortable with.
Post by: skullydazed on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:26:16
I am not sure why that is. Hopefully someone can explain that. I just put a caliper on an M3 screw that I have here (which I am using for my case) and it measures to be 2.9mm diameter. If I put the space as 3.0mm, it does work well, but I don't know if we can trust the tooling to give us exactly that size. So I think it is up to you for what you are comfortable with.
Keep in mind that the spec says 3mm. The vast majority of the time a screw that is too large is useless (or worse, not too big to insert but too big to remove) so designers will typically specify it with only a negative tolerance, such as 3.00-0.20. That means it can be anywhere from 2.80mm to 3.00mm, but if it's 3.01mm it's out of spec and should be rejected. Depending on the manufacturing tolerances for your particular screws you'll probably find a variation if you start measuring a bunch of them.
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:31:00
Yes. I expect that as well. Also, we have the competing tolerance of the cutting tool, so if the screw is exactly 3mm and the hole ends up being 0.1mm less than expected, you could have issues if you are trying to be too exact.I am not sure why that is. Hopefully someone can explain that. I just put a caliper on an M3 screw that I have here (which I am using for my case) and it measures to be 2.9mm diameter. If I put the space as 3.0mm, it does work well, but I don't know if we can trust the tooling to give us exactly that size. So I think it is up to you for what you are comfortable with.
Keep in mind that the spec says 3mm. The vast majority of the time a screw that is too large is useless (or worse, not too big to insert but too big to remove) so designers will typically specify it with only a negative tolerance, such as 3.00-0.20. That means it can be anywhere from 2.80mm to 3.00mm, but if it's 3.01mm it's out of spec and should be rejected. Depending on the manufacturing tolerances for your particular screws you'll probably find a variation if you start measuring a bunch of them.
I think we have outlined this enough that people can make educated decisions now though. Thanks for the added detail skullydazed. :)
Post by: tobsn on Wed, 07 September 2016, 10:57:11
I think we have outlined this enough that people can make educated decisions now though. Thanks for the added detail skullydazed. :)
well, now you can add a dropdown additional to the input field at hole diameter with M2/M3 in it :P
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 11:09:05
I think we have outlined this enough that people can make educated decisions now though. Thanks for the added detail skullydazed. :)
well, now you can add a dropdown additional to the input field at hole diameter with M2/M3 in it :P
No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:00:41
Without making any assumptions on the manufacturing tolerances of the drills/taps/operator skill, it's probably a good idea to err on the side of caution and oversize your top plate a little bit, seeing as absolute positioning is not a crucial factor for this particular application. :thumb:
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:13:16
Post by: xondat on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:13:47
What type of Cherry stabs are supported with the cut outs? Plate, PCB mounted, or both types?Both through my experience
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:27:48
What type of Cherry stabs are supported with the cut outs? Plate, PCB mounted, or both types?Both through my experience
Thank you for the reference.
Post by: xondat on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:29:45
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:39:27
I will throw something out there - if the stabilizer is upside down for a PCB mount, and you haven't selected costar cutouts, the stabilizer can't go up all the way therefore you're ****ed. This is if the stabilizer cutout isn't "in" a key hole.
I am not sure to understand it, do you have a picture of a sample of what you are referring to? I redraw the cut outs a bit, but I am not sure if what I did was enough. I am planning to use PCB mount stabs, but, after a second thought, I am reconsidering if I should leave the cuts as they are to be able to use plate mounted Cherry stabs also.
Post by: xondat on Wed, 07 September 2016, 16:43:08
I will throw something out there - if the stabilizer is upside down for a PCB mount, and you haven't selected costar cutouts, the stabilizer can't go up all the way therefore you're ****ed. This is if the stabilizer cutout isn't "in" a key hole.
I am not sure to understand it, do you have a picture of a sample of what you are referring to? I redraw the cut outs a bit, but I am not sure if what I did was enough. I am planning to use PCB mount stabs, but, after a second thought, I am reconsidering if I should leave the cuts as they are to be able to use plate mounted Cherry stabs also.
(http://i.imgur.com/2jCiVVh.jpg)
Top is with costar, bottom is without.
The PCB mounted stabilizer for the spacebar is like a n, so the wire goes up.
When I try to make the stabilizer go up all the way, it hits the plate and only goes up about half way.
Post by: swill on Wed, 07 September 2016, 17:16:21
Are you saying that you need the costar + cherry cutout if you rotate the installation of the stabilizer without actually rotating the stabilizer cutout? I wouldn't expect that to work even with the combo cutout. If you want to rotate it, you should rotate the cutout 180°.I will throw something out there - if the stabilizer is upside down for a PCB mount, and you haven't selected costar cutouts, the stabilizer can't go up all the way therefore you're ****ed. This is if the stabilizer cutout isn't "in" a key hole.
I am not sure to understand it, do you have a picture of a sample of what you are referring to? I redraw the cut outs a bit, but I am not sure if what I did was enough. I am planning to use PCB mount stabs, but, after a second thought, I am reconsidering if I should leave the cuts as they are to be able to use plate mounted Cherry stabs also.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/2jCiVVh.jpg)
Top is with costar, bottom is without.
The PCB mounted stabilizer for the spacebar is like a n, so the wire goes up.
When I try to make the stabilizer go up all the way, it hits the plate and only goes up about half way.
Post by: xondat on Thu, 08 September 2016, 06:10:54
Post by: tobsn on Thu, 08 September 2016, 06:33:43
No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
ah very good... btw. why is there now a middle layer on top?
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 September 2016, 07:25:16
How come the holes are often generated at either 14.001, 14.00, or 13.999? I hate having to manually correct them all. I know it doesn't make a difference in practice but I like the peace of mind of knowing they're all the same.That is because precision of floating point numbers is a huge pain in the ass.
In short, the polygon clipping algorithm (union, difference, intersection, etc) I am using now is far superior to the one I was using before, but it works on integers instead of floats. So I convert the floats to integers by multiplying by 1000 and then round to an int. Then after the operation, I divide by 1000 to get my float back. In this process, it is possible that the value is +/-0.001 from the original.
I choice of 1000 is a little arbitrary, but there are two competing factors that play into it.
- the result of multiplying by X must still fit in a 64 bit int, so the multiplier can not be excessively large and still work for large values.
- the size of the multiplier determines the final floating point precision. So 1000 results in +/-0.001. If I changed it to 10000 it would be +/-0.0001.
If you are worried about a precision of +/-0.001mm, I could potentially change it to +/-0.0001, but I have to do some math to determine what my largest possible numbers would be then.
I made a judgment call that +/-0.001 was close enough because it is a full decimal point more precise than any of the cutting tools which would be used to cut the part. Keep that in mind...
Post by: regack on Thu, 08 September 2016, 07:46:29
No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
ah very good... btw. why is there now a middle layer on top?
It sort of looks like a middle layer, but it's an (optional) layer to add depth to give the appearance of sunken switches. Swill added that feature a few days ago, but it got kind of buried in the screw-hole-diameter discussion recently.
edit: found the post
Small Update
Tonight I pushed the addition of a Top Layer which has cutouts for the keycaps and will make the case not feel so 'low profile'.
I have not added any ability to customize it at this point. It basically cuts a 19.05mm square hole for each unit of switch drawn.
Let me know what you guys think...
(Attachment Link)
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 September 2016, 08:02:21
No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
ah very good... btw. why is there now a middle layer on top?
As regack pointed out, this was added recently. It looks like a middle layer for the 60% cases, but as soon as you do a TKL or 104 layout, you will understand the feature better.
Here is the announcement of the feature: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2254283#msg2254283
Post by: derezzed on Fri, 09 September 2016, 17:43:32
The Keyboard Layout Editor has a preset layout for the Leopold FC660M.Well layout that got drawn is wrong because you are missing the 3 right most keys.
(Attachment Link)
Pasting that into the Plate Builder produces this plate:
(Attachment Link)
Ignoring the need to drill screw holes, will this plate fit a FC660M case or are the dimensions wrong?
(Attachment Link)
That layout "should" work if drawn correctly, but no one has confirmed if the plate fits into the case, so someone would have to try it. Printing to scale and trying in the case is probably your best bet.
I tried your suggestion and printed the dxf of the FC660m. It looks like the cutouts for the switches line up with the openings in the case, but the case is much wider than the plate dxf, has a ridge that the plate sets on, and has 45 degree corners. To get the plate to fit the FC660M case, it needs extra padding and 45 degree corners of undetermined size, and it needs to line up with a PCB. At least the layout is accurate, if anyone else wants to take this further.
Post by: Edde on Sat, 10 September 2016, 04:55:56
If I want to tap the bottom layer and make sure the 2.5 mm holes line up perfectly with the 3.4 mm holes in the other layers, can I use the following values?
Bottom plate:
diameter of hole - 2.5 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 5.55 mm
other plates
diameter of hole - 3.4 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 6 mm
Looking at the question mark it says the third field is the distance from the center to the edge, but you get an error when the value of this is lower than the diameter, how does it really work? It seems like it's the distance from the edge to the part of the hole that's the furthest in so to speak. Or is it that the third field is the diameter of a "ring" around the hole where the material is. If so, that would mean that I need the value in the third field to be the same for both plates, and if I want the holes to be in the middle of the padding, the third field needs to have the same value of the padding.
Post by: swill on Sat, 10 September 2016, 07:17:23
Quick question regarding the mount holesSorry. I think I forgot to update the help text when I reimplemented that functionality.
If I want to tap the bottom layer and make sure the 2.5 mm holes line up perfectly with the 3.4 mm holes in the other layers, can I use the following values?
Bottom plate:
diameter of hole - 2.5 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 5.55 mm
other plates
diameter of hole - 3.4 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 6 mm
Looking at the question mark it says the third field is the distance from the center to the edge, but you get an error when the value of this is lower than the diameter, how does it really work? It seems like it's the distance from the edge to the part of the hole that's the furthest in so to speak. Or is it that the third field is the diameter of a "ring" around the hole where the material is. If so, that would mean that I need the value in the third field to be the same for both plates, and if I want the holes to be in the middle of the padding, the third field needs to have the same value of the padding.
The center of the holes will be placed in the center of the edge width. So the edge width should be the same for all layers. The edge width is the total width of material which the middle layers will use.
So you could have padding of 10 and an edge width of 6, which would result in the holes being centered 3mm from the edge. The middle layers will be a 6mm ring, and there will be 4mm of empty space between the middle rings and edge of the layout (where the keycaps would line up with).
So in your example, you would probably want an edge width of 6 everywhere (center of screw holes will be 3mm from the edge). The padding should be greater than or equal to the edge width of 6. You can then use screw holes of whatever sizes you want and they will line up. I would probably suggest 2.5 and 3.2 for your purposes.
Does that help? Any remaining questions?
Post by: Edde on Sat, 10 September 2016, 07:36:39
Nope, just remember to update the description.Quick question regarding the mount holesSorry. I think I forgot to update the help text when I reimplemented that functionality.
If I want to tap the bottom layer and make sure the 2.5 mm holes line up perfectly with the 3.4 mm holes in the other layers, can I use the following values?
Bottom plate:
diameter of hole - 2.5 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 5.55 mm
other plates
diameter of hole - 3.4 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 6 mm
Looking at the question mark it says the third field is the distance from the center to the edge, but you get an error when the value of this is lower than the diameter, how does it really work? It seems like it's the distance from the edge to the part of the hole that's the furthest in so to speak. Or is it that the third field is the diameter of a "ring" around the hole where the material is. If so, that would mean that I need the value in the third field to be the same for both plates, and if I want the holes to be in the middle of the padding, the third field needs to have the same value of the padding.
The center of the holes will be placed in the center of the edge width. So the edge width should be the same for all layers. The edge width is the total width of material which the middle layers will use.
So you could have padding of 10 and an edge width of 6, which would result in the holes being centered 3mm from the edge. The middle layers will be a 6mm ring, and there will be 4mm of empty space between the middle rings and edge of the layout (where the keycaps would line up with).
So in your example, you would probably want an edge width of 6 everywhere (center of screw holes will be 3mm from the edge). The padding should be greater than or equal to the edge width of 6. You can then use screw holes of whatever sizes you want and they will line up. I would probably suggest 2.5 and 3.2 for your purposes.
Does that help? Any remaining questions?
Post by: swill on Sat, 10 September 2016, 07:38:27
Ya. Thanks for the heads up. I will update the docs.Nope, just remember to update the description.Quick question regarding the mount holesSorry. I think I forgot to update the help text when I reimplemented that functionality.
If I want to tap the bottom layer and make sure the 2.5 mm holes line up perfectly with the 3.4 mm holes in the other layers, can I use the following values?
Bottom plate:
diameter of hole - 2.5 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 5.55 mm
other plates
diameter of hole - 3.4 mm
width of material in which to place the holes - 6 mm
Looking at the question mark it says the third field is the distance from the center to the edge, but you get an error when the value of this is lower than the diameter, how does it really work? It seems like it's the distance from the edge to the part of the hole that's the furthest in so to speak. Or is it that the third field is the diameter of a "ring" around the hole where the material is. If so, that would mean that I need the value in the third field to be the same for both plates, and if I want the holes to be in the middle of the padding, the third field needs to have the same value of the padding.
The center of the holes will be placed in the center of the edge width. So the edge width should be the same for all layers. The edge width is the total width of material which the middle layers will use.
So you could have padding of 10 and an edge width of 6, which would result in the holes being centered 3mm from the edge. The middle layers will be a 6mm ring, and there will be 4mm of empty space between the middle rings and edge of the layout (where the keycaps would line up with).
So in your example, you would probably want an edge width of 6 everywhere (center of screw holes will be 3mm from the edge). The padding should be greater than or equal to the edge width of 6. You can then use screw holes of whatever sizes you want and they will line up. I would probably suggest 2.5 and 3.2 for your purposes.
Does that help? Any remaining questions?
Post by: IBNobody on Tue, 13 September 2016, 23:14:53
There isn't anything wrong with having shipped from overseas to the USA. It was just a surprise and not stated on their website.
Post by: lasergist on Tue, 13 September 2016, 23:28:31
Just a heads up... If you are using Lasergist, I recommend you pay for the tracking shipping option. They don't tell you that they are shipping out of Greece, and you might wonder why you are on the long end of the 2-7 day delivery window if you are in the USA.
There isn't anything wrong with having shipped from overseas to the USA. It was just a surprise and not stated on their website.
Hi there! I can confirm that most clients in the US receive their order within 3-4 days which is actually in the middle. 6-7 days is more common for Australia, Japan and New Zealand. These dates are based on the tracking nrs of existing clients. (UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway and especially France are the fastest ones with most orders delivered within 48 hours.
Post by: Edde on Thu, 15 September 2016, 13:46:52
Post by: swill on Thu, 15 September 2016, 14:12:03
Quick question, using the cherry stabliser mount it will work for both pcb and plate mounted cherry stabilisers, right? I just want to make sure so that I don't order the wrong type.
Yes, it works for both... :)
Post by: swill on Thu, 15 September 2016, 22:18:27
Please list the topics which you would like covered in the builder docs.
Some of my ideas:
- How to cut overlapping switches to offer more than one layout.
- Document all the 'hidden' features that can be done with the layout (rotation, switch selection, stabilizer changing, etc...)
I have more, but I would like your ideas, so please respond with your throughs.
Thanks...
Post by: IBNobody on Thu, 15 September 2016, 22:57:53
Examples of the use of wall thickness and screw placement.
Plate thickness for aluminum and SS, and how they affect the snap-in retention of Cherry / Matias switches.
When I get my board from Lasergist (still waiting), I planned to give you some feedback on how to make it easy for people to create bent plates.
Post by: swill on Thu, 15 September 2016, 23:01:31
Dimensions, Dimensions, Dimensions! How big the cutouts are... Why you used 19.05mm/.750" vs 19mm... Etc...
Examples of the use of wall thickness and screw placement.
Plate thickness for aluminum and SS, and how they affect the snap-in retention of Cherry / Matias switches.
When I get my board from Lasergist (still waiting), I planned to give you some feedback on how to make it easy for people to create bent plates.
thank you sir. btw, the way i am building the site, if you want to contribute documentation or use cases, you will be able to add to the docs.
Post by: IBNobody on Thu, 15 September 2016, 23:03:07
thank you sir. btw, the way i am building the site, if you want to contribute documentation or use cases, you will be able to add to the docs.
I will do that. I appreciate community driven documentation.
Post by: swill on Fri, 16 September 2016, 23:09:30
builder-docs.swillkb.com (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/)
Right now it is only the first pass, so it is still very light on content. I tried to write enough to get the basic structure in place and make it clear how to contribute.
Let me know if you have any questions. I will try to get some more documentation written over the next week or so.
Edit: I have not linked from the builder yet until I have real content written.
Post by: IBNobody on Sat, 17 September 2016, 14:23:38
1. Looks like the 2U Cherry cutouts work with Lasergist...
(http://i.imgur.com/su1kqWE.png?1)
2. The only thing that didn't make it through is some of the shape markings on the edge of the board.
(http://i.imgur.com/tSKC6ox.png) (http://i.imgur.com/aBpDZJ6.png?1)
They may be good enough though, because I put those marks in to tell me where to bend my plate lengthwise. (12.5mm) Any tips, Lasergist?
3. In the picture above, you will see that a 1mm rounded corner radius is not enough to blunt the corners.
4. There were minor hairline scratches on part of the keyboard plate that my LED indicators go. Maybe I should have gone with a brushed coating?
(http://i.imgur.com/0eJwgSZ.png?1)
I would definitely order from them again for round two... But next time, I will not ship to my house. The plate came slightly bowed because it was crammed into my mailbox. That should go away when I bend the edges. Regarding my shipping and tracking, I am not sure if I would request a tracking number again. Since it went registered airmail, I didn't know where it was for 10 days, and the Hellenic post tracking only showed when it was put on a airplane.
Post by: timmah on Sat, 17 September 2016, 15:34:35
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
Post by: swill on Sat, 17 September 2016, 15:58:28
Thank you for the feedback. This is really valuable insight. When you are so close to the tool, it is hard to see some of these things. I am actually, at this very moment, writing the documentation for exactly those features. :P Good timing...
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
Yes, I should put 'Plate' in the switch layer title. Nice addition...
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
I can take screenshots of the different key transform options to make it clearer to the users. This will likely be in the docs and not the tool as it is harder to maintain in the tool. :(
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Like actual photos taken with a camera right? I have a case which was built with this tool, so I can take pictures of it.
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
I am currently working on a new set of features which are very flexible and will let the user do all of these. Basically, you are able to specify custom polygons which can either be cut or added to any or multiple layers. This will let you make different sized holes in different layers, etc... This will will add a huge amount of flexibility to the tool.
It is a little ways off still. I am still working out how I am going to make the UI update as the different options change. The options are dynamically built by adding polygons. Here is an early screenshot as I try to work through placement and management.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: timmah on Sat, 17 September 2016, 17:00:16
I can take screenshots of the different key transform options to make it clearer to the users. This will likely be in the docs and not the tool as it is harder to maintain in the tool. :(
Like actual photos taken with a camera right? I have a case which was built with this tool, so I can take pictures of it.
I agree, the screenshots could clutter the tool.
As for pictures. Personally I know little to nothing about keyboards. So I would have no idea what to expect from a keyboard based on your tool. I found some pictures in the thread which obviously helped. It would be a great addition to the tool and/or documentation though.
Post by: IBNobody on Sat, 17 September 2016, 20:57:16
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 05:05:06
I'm going to have to reorder my plate from Lasergist. Not only did I specify a hole wrong, I also ruined the plate by bending it. Even with a finger break, I guess I underestimated how much force it takes to bend stainless steel.
aluminium is really easy to bend tho, even with bare hands
By the way, thanks for sharing the pictures
Post by: timmah on Sun, 18 September 2016, 05:43:43
Is it possible to have the keys sunk into the top layer? As I see it right now, the tool only supports the keys "on top" (switches visible)- correct?
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 05:46:17
No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
ah very good... btw. why is there now a middle layer on top?
As regack pointed out, this was added recently. It looks like a middle layer for the 60% cases, but as soon as you do a TKL or 104 layout, you will understand the feature better.
Here is the announcement of the feature: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2254283#msg2254283
I do not know the actual jargon for the different types of keyboard designs.
Is it possible to have the keys sunk into the top layer? As I see it right now, the tool only supports the keys "on top" (switches visible)- correct?
I think the above feature addresses that
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 06:50:33
I'm going to have to reorder my plate from Lasergist. Not only did I specify a hole wrong, I also ruined the plate by bending it. Even with a finger break, I guess I underestimated how much force it takes to bend stainless steel.That sucks dude. You can't take it somewhere and get it flattened again?
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 06:51:43
Yes. This should address this.No, I will be adding a more comprehensive feature for being able to modify any layer and this functionality will be possible with that feature. :)
ah very good... btw. why is there now a middle layer on top?
As regack pointed out, this was added recently. It looks like a middle layer for the 60% cases, but as soon as you do a TKL or 104 layout, you will understand the feature better.
Here is the announcement of the feature: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2254283#msg2254283I do not know the actual jargon for the different types of keyboard designs.
Is it possible to have the keys sunk into the top layer? As I see it right now, the tool only supports the keys "on top" (switches visible)- correct?
I think the above feature addresses that
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 07:44:07
1) Screws, bumpons (Especially challenging for people outside US, especially the screws, they really determine the quality of the keyboard in a custom-produced keyboard)
2) Producers, materials, quality (Like BigBlueSaw, lasergist, different materials, different challenges)
A proposed solution: Builder blog -or- builds-only-thread - Where every post, or entry, in this thread/blog is a keyboard, with every screw, every component linked(source), so others can purchase/acquire the same materials, use the same production companies too
If I was in US, this wouldn't be much of an issue, I could just go ahead and try once, then retry, then retry, but as someone not in U.S., even one try will cost me more in terms of time and money, considering customs, ordering efforts etc. - so basically I want to do it once and do it right (for each layout, idea) - and It's super challenging to find information, such a collective would solve the issue
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 08:08:17
I really want to get a custom-swill made, I personally just use the builder for plates, I use 60% cases, drill PCB's to support non-standard layouts, but I want to try completely custom layouts and hand-wired keyboards, as the builder is intended to produce, for an outsider, the challenges are:
1) Screws, bumpons (Especially challenging for people outside US, especially the screws, they really determine the quality of the keyboard in a custom-produced keyboard)
2) Producers, materials, quality (Like BigBlueSaw, lasergist, different materials, different challenges)
A proposed solution: Builder blog -or- builds-only-thread - Where every post, or entry, in this thread/blog is a keyboard, with every screw, every component linked(source), so others can purchase/acquire the same materials, use the same production companies too
If I was in US, this wouldn't be much of an issue, I could just go ahead and try once, then retry, then retry, but as someone not in U.S., even one try will cost me more in terms of time and money, considering customs, ordering efforts etc. - so basically I want to do it once and do it right (for each layout, idea) - and It's super challenging to find information, such a collective would solve the issue
I like this idea. There are a couple features in the works which will start to make some of this easier.
- Custom cutout and addition polygons added to any layer. This means that a board built with the tool will be reproducible and ideally no one will need to make any modifications outside the tool (additional holes, etc...).
- I am in the process of working out the details for including 'Presets' and with that feature will be the ability to 'Save' and 'Load' a configuration. This will let you create, save, iterate, save, share, etc... It will make it much easier for people to be able to post pictures of a case they built and include a JSON file which can be loaded into the builder to produce the exact same case. In combination with the above new feature, this will make the builder much more flexible and shareable.
As I get through these features I will keep this idea in mind so I can hopefully make this easy to do. Nice ideas. Thanks... :)
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 08:35:57
I really want to get a custom-swill made, I personally just use the builder for plates, I use 60% cases, drill PCB's to support non-standard layouts, but I want to try completely custom layouts and hand-wired keyboards, as the builder is intended to produce, for an outsider, the challenges are:
1) Screws, bumpons (Especially challenging for people outside US, especially the screws, they really determine the quality of the keyboard in a custom-produced keyboard)
2) Producers, materials, quality (Like BigBlueSaw, lasergist, different materials, different challenges)
A proposed solution: Builder blog -or- builds-only-thread - Where every post, or entry, in this thread/blog is a keyboard, with every screw, every component linked(source), so others can purchase/acquire the same materials, use the same production companies too
If I was in US, this wouldn't be much of an issue, I could just go ahead and try once, then retry, then retry, but as someone not in U.S., even one try will cost me more in terms of time and money, considering customs, ordering efforts etc. - so basically I want to do it once and do it right (for each layout, idea) - and It's super challenging to find information, such a collective would solve the issue
There's your problem right there, ordering things from the US. It's gonna be much more cost-effective for you to find a machining shop in your region instead, that will cut out a lot of the costs associated with making plates.
Fasteners (nuts, bolts and rivets etc...), bumpons, lubricants etc etc are all standard parts, you can usually source them from any competent hardware store or DIY retailer, usually by the bagful for dirt cheap (ebay or your local equivalent will have a lot of stuff too). Drills and taps are also available in standard sizes, and if you don't want to invest in your own tools, there are a lot of companies that will rent you some professional tools for short term use. Worst come to worst, you could always try auto garages or mechanics, they will usually have most of the relevant tools and you can ask them to let you use some of their tools if you ask really nicely or offer to pay a nominal fee.
Just being resourceful and thinking a bit outside the box will get you a long way, I remember back when I was a student, I used to stay in lab shops after hours to use some of their tools, metal files and bending presses because I didn't want to buy my own tools and even if I did, my student accommodation wouldn't have any room to store them. :thumb:
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 08:49:42
I really want to get a custom-swill made, I personally just use the builder for plates, I use 60% cases, drill PCB's to support non-standard layouts, but I want to try completely custom layouts and hand-wired keyboards, as the builder is intended to produce, for an outsider, the challenges are:
1) Screws, bumpons (Especially challenging for people outside US, especially the screws, they really determine the quality of the keyboard in a custom-produced keyboard)
2) Producers, materials, quality (Like BigBlueSaw, lasergist, different materials, different challenges)
A proposed solution: Builder blog -or- builds-only-thread - Where every post, or entry, in this thread/blog is a keyboard, with every screw, every component linked(source), so others can purchase/acquire the same materials, use the same production companies too
If I was in US, this wouldn't be much of an issue, I could just go ahead and try once, then retry, then retry, but as someone not in U.S., even one try will cost me more in terms of time and money, considering customs, ordering efforts etc. - so basically I want to do it once and do it right (for each layout, idea) - and It's super challenging to find information, such a collective would solve the issue
There's your problem right there, ordering things from the US. It's gonna be much more cost-effective for you to find a machining shop in your region instead, that will cut out a lot of the costs associated with making plates.
Fasteners (nuts, bolts and rivets etc...), bumpons, lubricants etc etc are all standard parts, you can usually source them from any competent hardware store or DIY retailer, usually by the bagful for dirt cheap (ebay or your local equivalent will have a lot of stuff too). Drills and taps are also available in standard sizes, and if you don't want to invest in your own tools, there are a lot of companies that will rent you some professional tools for short term use. Worst come to worst, you could always try auto garages or mechanics, they will usually have most of the relevant tools and you can ask them to let you use some of their tools if you ask really nicely or offer to pay a nominal fee.
Just being resourceful and thinking a bit outside the box will get you a long way, I remember back when I was a student, I used to stay in lab shops after hours to use some of their tools, metal files and bending presses because I didn't want to buy my own tools and even if I did, my student accommodation wouldn't have any room to store them. :thumb:
U.S. retailers has admirable systems for parts inventorying, some asian countries also have their own resources, where I come from, all your assumptions are wrong
It's nearly impossible to find any kind of decent small screw/nut, large ones are available tho, so if I was building something bigger, your advice would apply
There's also the consideration of "time" - I can't spend days looking for a small nut
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 08:58:24
I really want to get a custom-swill made, I personally just use the builder for plates, I use 60% cases, drill PCB's to support non-standard layouts, but I want to try completely custom layouts and hand-wired keyboards, as the builder is intended to produce, for an outsider, the challenges are:
1) Screws, bumpons (Especially challenging for people outside US, especially the screws, they really determine the quality of the keyboard in a custom-produced keyboard)
2) Producers, materials, quality (Like BigBlueSaw, lasergist, different materials, different challenges)
A proposed solution: Builder blog -or- builds-only-thread - Where every post, or entry, in this thread/blog is a keyboard, with every screw, every component linked(source), so others can purchase/acquire the same materials, use the same production companies too
If I was in US, this wouldn't be much of an issue, I could just go ahead and try once, then retry, then retry, but as someone not in U.S., even one try will cost me more in terms of time and money, considering customs, ordering efforts etc. - so basically I want to do it once and do it right (for each layout, idea) - and It's super challenging to find information, such a collective would solve the issue
There's your problem right there, ordering things from the US. It's gonna be much more cost-effective for you to find a machining shop in your region instead, that will cut out a lot of the costs associated with making plates.
Fasteners (nuts, bolts and rivets etc...), bumpons, lubricants etc etc are all standard parts, you can usually source them from any competent hardware store or DIY retailer, usually by the bagful for dirt cheap (ebay or your local equivalent will have a lot of stuff too). Drills and taps are also available in standard sizes, and if you don't want to invest in your own tools, there are a lot of companies that will rent you some professional tools for short term use. Worst come to worst, you could always try auto garages or mechanics, they will usually have most of the relevant tools and you can ask them to let you use some of their tools if you ask really nicely or offer to pay a nominal fee.
Just being resourceful and thinking a bit outside the box will get you a long way, I remember back when I was a student, I used to stay in lab shops after hours to use some of their tools, metal files and bending presses because I didn't want to buy my own tools and even if I did, my student accommodation wouldn't have any room to store them. :thumb:
U.S. retailers has admirable systems for parts inventorying, some asian countries also have their own resources, where I come from, all your assumptions are wrong
It's nearly impossible to find any kind of decent small screw/nut, large ones are available tho, so if I was building something bigger, your advice would apply
There's also the consideration of "time" - I can't spend days looking for a small nut
Fair dos, whereabouts are you from? I've had limited experiences outside of US, EU and SEA vendors, but standard parts should not be hard to come by. I was able to source parts when I was living at home in Vietnam, often from the most random of places (turns out opticians and optometrists have very good access to small screws and fasteners). Autogarages were also a good place to look, if not for gettings parts straight from them, you can usually ask them about their supply chain and where they get their fasteners from.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 09:01:54
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 09:07:05
Fair dos, whereabouts are you from? I've had limited experiences outside of US, EU and SEA vendors, but standard parts should not be hard to come by. I was able to source parts when I was living at home in Vietnam, often from the most random of places (turns out opticians and optometrists have very good access to small screws and fasteners). Autogarages were also a good place to look, if not for gettings parts straight from them, you can usually ask them about their supply chain and where they get their fasteners from.
Turkey, only screw source I could find in the past: http://cabacivata.com.tr/ <- large screws, bought 100x screws for one motorcycle screw I needed
Some RC stores have some random RC screws, probably with 100x markup
Even in U.S. it's kind of a challenge to find the "best" looking screw/nut combos, in my eyes, almost impossible in many other countries
Keep in mind that I'm chasing the dream keyboard, some keyboards cost up to $1000 when you factor things in, I'm trying to access things practically, so too much research for a screw is not something that I like to do again, as I did it once for some missing 60% case screws
I think we might have some generational differences too, I'm around 25, spoiled by the ease of access the internet-era brings, going the brick-and-mortar route is unthinkable, especially in Turkey
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 09:13:02
I buy most of my components from eBay. Quality is not great, but good for an inexpensive solution.Fair dos, whereabouts are you from? I've had limited experiences outside of US, EU and SEA vendors, but standard parts should not be hard to come by. I was able to source parts when I was living at home in Vietnam, often from the most random of places (turns out opticians and optometrists have very good access to small screws and fasteners). Autogarages were also a good place to look, if not for gettings parts straight from them, you can usually ask them about their supply chain and where they get their fasteners from.
Turkey, only screw source I could find in the past: http://cabacivata.com.tr/ <- large screws, bought 100x screws for one motorcycle screw I needed
Some RC stores have some random RC screws, probably with 100x markup
Even in U.S. it's kind of a challenge to find the "best" looking screw/nut combos, in my eyes, almost impossible in many other countries
Keep in mind that I'm chasing the dream keyboard, some keyboards cost up to $1000 when you factor things in, I'm trying to access things practically, so too much research for a screw is not something that I like to do again, as I did it once for some missing 60% case screws
I think we might have some generational differences too, I'm around 25, spoiled by the ease of access the internet-era brings, going the brick-and-mortar route is unthinkable, especially in Turkey
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 09:29:14
The OP also has another interesting solution for keeping things together: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71551.msg1734427#msg1734427
I might not be assessing things clearly, but, the screws make or break the keyboard in my opinion, ideally, it would be great to have a recessed plate and a matching screw combo as http://winkeyless.kr/ uses
But I think there are other elegant solutions out there that would match well with water/laser cut parts
My ultimate point is, it would be nice to have options in one place
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 09:59:32
This project inspired me recently by the way: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71551.msg2249663#msg2249663
The OP also has another interesting solution for keeping things together: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71551.msg1734427#msg1734427
I might not be assessing things clearly, but, the screws make or break the keyboard in my opinion, ideally, it would be great to have a recessed plate and a matching screw combo as http://winkeyless.kr/ uses
But I think there are other elegant solutions out there that would match well with water/laser cut parts
My ultimate point is, it would be nice to have options in one place
Turkey... Jeeze, I thought you lived in some really remote places...
I did a cursory search, it seems the two major electronics/parts supplier (Digikey and Farnell) have dedicated Turkish sites available. A quick search of Farnell's catalogue shows plenty of M3 machine screws available (which is a pretty sensible size for keyboard fasteners). I think by 'recessed plate and screw combo', you're probably looking for a countersunk head (or a socket head if you want to counterbore your plate, which would need to be fairly thick plate). Fasteners are cheap, you can get a bag of 100 screws for about 3 Euros, shipping shouldn't be too bad to Turkey, these big companies all have dedicated warehouses serving the EU region.
You should start here:
http://www.digikey.com.tr/
Or here:
http://tr.farnell.com/
For example, using a search for M3 screws with countersunk filter, I found this:
http://tr.farnell.com/duratool/m316-krstmcz100/screw-pozi-csk-steel-bzp-m3x16/dp/1420400
Which is a zinc coated machine screw, these are more or less suitable. You can paint the heads on these if you want to match it to your plate.
Feet, bumpons etc... are also availble, with a bit of searching:
http://tr.farnell.com/3m/sj5302trans/feet-polyurethane-2-2x7-9mm-pk144/dp/1165067
(that was a pack of 144, which is probably more than you need, but you get my point. They're not hard to find, you just have to do a bit of searching and know what keywords or filters to use.
Hope this helps in your quest for the perfect keyboard.
On a separate note, @swill: Maybe this would be helpful to put in your documentation? Would be a great resources to help people find parts for their build. I know Farnell is very popular in Europe, and they carry a lot of useful parts.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 10:04:20
On a separate note, @swill: Maybe this would be helpful to put in your documentation? Would be a great resources to help people find parts for their build. I know Farnell is very popular in Europe, and they carry a lot of useful parts.
Ya. Adding a resources section with links to these types of things makes a lot of sense.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 10:12:25
But the devil is in the details, as you see most of these are bulk-sale items, digikey seems to have a $75 min-shipping cost, to top them off, sometimes customs hold these items, and you get to explain why you bought 200 screws etc. They laugh when you explain they don't sell less then 200 and you bought 200 for 2 of the item etc. (If I could get everything from Digikey, the $75 cost could be gulpable) - also, chellenges of living in Turkey, I can't order multiple international items at once, I can only safely order one thing at a time, and it takes 3-4 weeks for them to reach me (again, customs people hate regular people)
Anyway, my ultimate solution to all these problems is Shipito, buy them from US, batch them, re-declare them to be customs-friendly, send them to yourself in a batch - so now, practically, I can shop like I'm in the US, it's wonderous when buying small things like these
But still, even with all these experiences, it's unclear which parts are ideal for usage on keyboards
And again, this is my ultimate point, it would be nice to have a "vetted" list of parts, collected by our community
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 10:18:48
And again, this is my ultimate point, it would be nice to have a "vetted" list of parts, collected by our community
Yes. Having a resources section that lists vendors and parts that are known to work will be nice. Also a build log site which let's people upload the details of their projects and the vendors they used would complement that we'll.
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 10:19:55
Thanks, duynguyenle, it does help, and I genuinely know you mean well
But the devil is in the details, as you see most of these are bulk-sale items, digikey seems to have a $75 min-shipping cost, to top them off, sometimes customs hold these items, and you get to explain why you bought 200 screws etc. They laugh when you explain they don't sell less then 200 and you bought 200 for 2 of the item etc. (If I could get everything from Digikey, the $75 cost could be gulpable) - also, chellenges of living in Turkey, I can't order multiple international items at once, I can only safely order one thing at a time, and it takes 3-4 weeks for them to reach me (again, customs people hate regular people)
Anyway, my ultimate solution to all these problems is Shipito, buy them from US, batch them, re-declare them to be customs-friendly, send them to yourself in a batch - so now, practically, I can shop like I'm in the US, it's wonderous when buying small things like these
But still, even with all these experiences, it's unclear which parts are ideal for usage on keyboards
And again, this is my ultimate point, it would be nice to have a "vetted" list of parts, collected by our community
Bleh, I don't like the sound of your country's customs agency. They sound really douchey.
Post by: timmah on Sun, 18 September 2016, 12:31:16
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 12:50:24
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
You mean a countersink or a counterbore cut? Countersink is certainly doable, and countersink drillbits have well-defined standards that you can follow. But keeping in mind Swill's tool is currently a 2D geometry generator only, you would have to import the drawing into your CAD package of choice and generate the countersinks yourself. Seeing as the aim of the tool is to generate cutting paths for laser or waterjet, it doesn't make too much sense to incorporate countersinks, as that would be a postprocessing step. You're probably better off doing it manually countersink the holes yourself.
As for counterboring, I imagine it is probably not too relevant to switchplates, as you would need a fairly thick plate to do that, again, it would be a post-process step, you can't counterbore or countersink with a waterjet or laser cutter.
Post by: tobsn on Sun, 18 September 2016, 12:54:09
anyway, shipping from US sources is a nightmare. my signature plastics order is currently stuck in customs and who knows, maybe they send it back. that's $25 down the drain and if you add that over the price per keycap i'm going to be above $3-4 per single keycap once it's here.
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 12:58:37
i'm in the same boat here in poland... production is a ****ing mess. i can't buy M3 screws in any store here so i had to order them all online. i'm still trying to find a source for lead free solder and solder paste. it's a ****ing nightmare. i found a very cheap metal laser cutter in town, same for plastics. but response time of those people is crazy slow... my biggest problem right now is that i can't even countersink my m3 holes because i don't have a bench drill and there is nobody i know or any workshop you can do it in. i'd literally have to buy a bench drill to drill 16 countersink holes. i already bought a countersink drill bit which i to order t online forbes for $17... because after visiting 8 stores i gave up.
anyway, shipping from US sources is a nightmare. my signature plastics order is currently stuck in customs and who knows, maybe they send it back. that's $25 down the drain and if you add that over the price per keycap i'm going to be above $3-4 per single keycap once it's here.
That sucks... I'm lucky enough to have hardware stores around and ebay takes care of the rest... It would be useful if we can start some sort of repository for best practice and vendors for sourcing parts for different countries. I'm just amazed that it seems so difficult to get basic standard parts such as bolts and nuts, seems crazy! Maybe I'm just spoilt for choice.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 18 September 2016, 13:06:00
i'm in the same boat here in poland... production is a ****ing mess. i can't buy M3 screws in any store here so i had to order them all online. i'm still trying to find a source for lead free solder and solder paste. it's a ****ing nightmare. i found a very cheap metal laser cutter in town, same for plastics. but response time of those people is crazy slow... my biggest problem right now is that i can't even countersink my m3 holes because i don't have a bench drill and there is nobody i know or any workshop you can do it in. i'd literally have to buy a bench drill to drill 16 countersink holes. i already bought a countersink drill bit which i to order t online forbes for $17... because after visiting 8 stores i gave up.
anyway, shipping from US sources is a nightmare. my signature plastics order is currently stuck in customs and who knows, maybe they send it back. that's $25 down the drain and if you add that over the price per keycap i'm going to be above $3-4 per single keycap once it's here.
While I have no idea about countersink drilling, can you do it with a Dremel and the Dremel's drill-stand (might be a stupid advice, onto my useful advice ->)
If you buy a lot of keyboard related stuff, I strongly suggest Shipito, they are not super cheap, but they combine packages and you can re-declare them, send them with DHL if you want - It's risky but I usually choose DHL and get things in 2-3 days without any customs hassle (if you know the limits) - and from my experience, my plates and PCB's always arrived safe (it's again risky tho, since plates can bend)
The plate bending, acrylic breaking should be a universal issue with international shipping - especially at customs, usually they open the package, but don't repack it well, keycaps arrive scratched, plates might arrive broken or bent :(
Post by: timmah on Sun, 18 September 2016, 13:15:30
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
You mean a countersink or a counterbore cut? Countersink is certainly doable, and countersink drillbits have well-defined standards that you can follow. But keeping in mind Swill's tool is currently a 2D geometry generator only, you would have to import the drawing into your CAD package of choice and generate the countersinks yourself. Seeing as the aim of the tool is to generate cutting paths for laser or waterjet, it doesn't make too much sense to incorporate countersinks, as that would be a postprocessing step. You're probably better off doing it manually countersink the holes yourself.
As for counterboring, I imagine it is probably not too relevant to switchplates, as you would need a fairly thick plate to do that, again, it would be a post-process step, you can't counterbore or countersink with a waterjet or laser cutter.
Thanks, this clears some things for me as I do not know anything about the production steps as of yet. Only one way to learn :)
Is it generally possible to CNC a case based on the tool outputs?
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 18 September 2016, 13:19:32
Thanks, this clears some things for me as I do not know anything about the production steps as of yet. Only one way to learn :)
Is it generally possible to CNC a case based on the tool outputs?
A case? Yes sure but the tool at the moment is relatively limited, it's basically a sandwich case. If you want to produce something like a TEX case, you would have to model it yourself I think, then have it prototyped by a machining shop.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 17:31:42
Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
I currently can't support anything that is not a perpendicular cut all the way through a layer.
Not sure I understand what a classic case would be. You can use multiple closed and open layers to build up the middle layers of a sandwich case. This gives you a pretty standard case.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 17:36:40
Yes. Countersink in is expected to be a post fab process. I would do it with a drill press if I did that.Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
You mean a countersink or a counterbore cut? Countersink is certainly doable, and countersink drillbits have well-defined standards that you can follow. But keeping in mind Swill's tool is currently a 2D geometry generator only, you would have to import the drawing into your CAD package of choice and generate the countersinks yourself. Seeing as the aim of the tool is to generate cutting paths for laser or waterjet, it doesn't make too much sense to incorporate countersinks, as that would be a postprocessing step. You're probably better off doing it manually countersink the holes yourself.
As for counterboring, I imagine it is probably not too relevant to switchplates, as you would need a fairly thick plate to do that, again, it would be a post-process step, you can't counterbore or countersink with a waterjet or laser cutter.
For the bottom fastener. I would not use nuts and would instead make the holes in the bottom smaller than the other layers and tap them. This means you don't need anything sticking out the bottom of the case.
Post by: swill on Sun, 18 September 2016, 18:00:46
CNC is currently not supported because a CNC can not make square corners and the tolerances are too tight to not have square corners.Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
You mean a countersink or a counterbore cut? Countersink is certainly doable, and countersink drillbits have well-defined standards that you can follow. But keeping in mind Swill's tool is currently a 2D geometry generator only, you would have to import the drawing into your CAD package of choice and generate the countersinks yourself. Seeing as the aim of the tool is to generate cutting paths for laser or waterjet, it doesn't make too much sense to incorporate countersinks, as that would be a postprocessing step. You're probably better off doing it manually countersink the holes yourself.
As for counterboring, I imagine it is probably not too relevant to switchplates, as you would need a fairly thick plate to do that, again, it would be a post-process step, you can't counterbore or countersink with a waterjet or laser cutter.
Thanks, this clears some things for me as I do not know anything about the production steps as of yet. Only one way to learn :)
Is it generally possible to CNC a case based on the tool outputs?
There are a few different cutouts which people have created that work with CNC machines, but I have not implemented any yet. nudeCNC and I have had some preliminary discussions around collaborating to add the ability to produce CNC compatible output. This is not a short term road map feature though.
Post by: timmah on Mon, 19 September 2016, 06:01:29
CNC is currently not supported because a CNC can not make square corners and the tolerances are too tight to not have square corners.Hi,
never built a keyboard myself, but your tool + KLE makes me curious. Just some suggestions for your tool and your documentation
-when building the CAD, you get a "switch layer" which I believe is the plate? This may be confusing for absolute beginners
-the explanations (Question mark Box) are good. This could be improved by adding a model or a real life picture pointing to what the specific options change. Visual aids help a lot imo
-example picture of some cases built with the tool
Things which are probably a lot of work:
-option for bottom side cutouts for rubber feet
-inclination for top/bottom plate
-offset for the holes (5th and upward)
timmah, what do you think of the docs here now? http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
I am not finished, just getting through sections one at a time as I have time.
Not sure I understand everything, but pretty much what I was imagining - amazing! :)
On the topic of bolts, screws and nuts. How about an option in the builder for a cutout of the screw-head as well as for the nut?! This option could be part of the mount holes section. I imagine some people do not want the screw-head or the nut to stick out of surface. The option could include normal cylindrical as well as a cone cu- out with values such as depth, width and for cones, top width and bottom width (although bottom width = screw diameter?!).
I suppose this can be solved with your polygon function? Just not sure how one would go about placing the polygons reliably on top of the mount holes.
And I have another question - again not sure on the terminology. The builder is for poker and sandwich build. Is it possible to realize a "classic" case with top bottom part and bottom and the plate inside the case?
You mean a countersink or a counterbore cut? Countersink is certainly doable, and countersink drillbits have well-defined standards that you can follow. But keeping in mind Swill's tool is currently a 2D geometry generator only, you would have to import the drawing into your CAD package of choice and generate the countersinks yourself. Seeing as the aim of the tool is to generate cutting paths for laser or waterjet, it doesn't make too much sense to incorporate countersinks, as that would be a postprocessing step. You're probably better off doing it manually countersink the holes yourself.
As for counterboring, I imagine it is probably not too relevant to switchplates, as you would need a fairly thick plate to do that, again, it would be a post-process step, you can't counterbore or countersink with a waterjet or laser cutter.
Thanks, this clears some things for me as I do not know anything about the production steps as of yet. Only one way to learn :)
Is it generally possible to CNC a case based on the tool outputs?
There are a few different cutouts which people have created that work with CNC machines, but I have not implemented any yet. nudeCNC and I have had some preliminary discussions around collaborating to add the ability to produce CNC compatible output. This is not a short term road map feature though.
Thanks for the responses. Will have to see how I go about this then. I do have access to a CNC machine, but not a laser cutter that can cut through metal (engraving only) or a waterjet.
Post by: tobsn on Mon, 19 September 2016, 10:04:28
While I have no idea about countersink drilling, can you do it with a Dremel and the Dremel's drill-stand (might be a stupid advice, onto my useful advice ->)
If you buy a lot of keyboard related stuff, I strongly suggest Shipito, they are not super cheap, but they combine packages and you can re-declare them, send them with DHL if you want - It's risky but I usually choose DHL and get things in 2-3 days without any customs hassle (if you know the limits) - and from my experience, my plates and PCB's always arrived safe (it's again risky tho, since plates can bend)
The plate bending, acrylic breaking should be a universal issue with international shipping - especially at customs, usually they open the package, but don't repack it well, keycaps arrive scratched, plates might arrive broken or bent :(
Dremel won't do with a 1.5mm stainless steel plate... ;)
The issue is also not the shipping cost, mostly, its that VAT is calculated (technically illegally) on shipping and product cost, meaning if you order something for $50 + $20 shipping = $70 + 23% tax = $86.1 - so you're ending up having your $50 worth of products costing you $36 in "shipping"... that's the insane part.
btw. props to oshpark, they send stuff marked as merchandise worth $10... meaning no VAT (under $25) and the shipping was free... so that is AMAZING.
(I ordered amoeba one key PCB's)
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 19 September 2016, 11:40:56
I recently created this backplate using your existing tool, and I had to customize it to add screw holes and a reset hole. While the screw holes are all in a symmetrical pattern, the reset hole is not.
Here is the final backplate...
(http://i.imgur.com/xErmHKb.png)
But notice that even though the reset hole on the right is in the correct position, ordering this file from Lasergist would have resulted in the top of this plate - the one inside the sandwich - being the finished side.
What I needed was a mirrored plate with the reset on the left side.
(http://i.imgur.com/zLaSPHO.png)
How can we handle this with the GUI and Lasergist ordering page?
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 September 2016, 12:19:32
Hey Swill... I have some feedback for your future custom hole project, whenever it makes it out the door.
I recently created this backplate using your existing tool, and I had to customize it to add screw holes and a reset hole. While the screw holes are all in a symmetrical pattern, the reset hole is not.
Here is the final backplate...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xErmHKb.png)
But notice that even though the reset hole on the right is in the correct position, ordering this file from Lasergist would have resulted in the top of this plate - the one inside the sandwich - being the finished side.
What I needed was a mirrored plate with the reset on the left side.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/zLaSPHO.png)
How can we handle this with the GUI and Lasergist ordering page?
You are saying there is a finished and non-finished side on the material that lasergist uses? I will look into that...
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 19 September 2016, 13:12:13
You are saying there is a finished and non-finished side on the material that lasergist uses? I will look into that...
Cool, thank you.
This is what they say on their website regarding the polishing option.
"Typically laser-cut parts have one good side. The top one. By selecting the Polishing add-on, your piece gets polished on both sides right after it gets cut."
So to keep costs down, we would want the top of the switch plate or top plate to be polished/"good" and the bottom of the bottom plate to be polished/"good".
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 September 2016, 13:21:57
You are saying there is a finished and non-finished side on the material that lasergist uses? I will look into that...
Cool, thank you.
This is what they say on their website regarding the polishing option.
"Typically laser-cut parts have one good side. The top one. By selecting the Polishing add-on, your piece gets polished on both sides right after it gets cut."
So to keep costs down, we would want the top of the switch plate or top plate to be polished/"good" and the bottom of the bottom plate to be polished/"good".
Maybe I can just try to get the "polishing of both sides" option to be the default. :eek:
Post by: IBNobody on Mon, 19 September 2016, 13:45:11
Maybe I can just try to get the "polishing of both sides" option to be the default. :eek:
That would cost a lot. I thought it was a $30 adder or something for my big board. My wallet would weep.
Polished faces are something I want to add to the documentation once you get it fleshed out a bit more.
If you set it up to auto-flip the bottom artwork before sending the data to Lasergist and put a note on your CAD display that says that only the bottom is getting polished, we might be able to get away with keeping this hands-off from the user. Heck, your current tool could technically do it now since it always produces bottoms that are vertically symmetrical.
Something else to consider... I know you were working with Lasergist to get the inner layers optimized... I wonder if we could save costs on the inner layers by not having the top polished at all? On my plate, they polished the top and edges. If I were to buy inner layer pieces, I would only need edges polished.
Post by: swill on Mon, 19 September 2016, 14:53:07
Maybe I can just try to get the "polishing of both sides" option to be the default. :eek:
That would cost a lot. I thought it was a $30 adder or something for my big board. My wallet would weep.
Polished faces are something I want to add to the documentation once you get it fleshed out a bit more.
If you set it up to auto-flip the bottom artwork before sending the data to Lasergist and put a note on your CAD display that says that only the bottom is getting polished, we might be able to get away with keeping this hands-off from the user. Heck, your current tool could technically do it now since it always produces bottoms that are vertically symmetrical.
Something else to consider... I know you were working with Lasergist to get the inner layers optimized... I wonder if we could save costs on the inner layers by not having the top polished at all? On my plate, they polished the top and edges. If I were to buy inner layer pieces, I would only need edges polished.
I need to talk to them to see how we can specialize their service to our needs. We have a pretty predictable use case, so we may be able to figure out ways to handle this sort of stuff.
Post by: IBNobody on Wed, 21 September 2016, 22:40:34
The following parameter...
Code: [Select]
{_h:3},""...could place a hole of 3mm at the center of the switch rather than placing the switch cutout.
Or you could interpret decals as holes. It would make building plates with extra holes somewhat simple. (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_p=DSA&a:5&fa@:0&:0&:0&:0&:0&:0&:9%3B&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_y:-0.25&x:0.75&p=OEM&a:7%3B&=&=%3B&@_y:-0.5&p=DSA&a:5&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_y:-0.5&x:0.75&p=OEM&a:7%3B&=&=%3B&@_y:-0.25&p=DSA&a:5&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E)
Post by: swill on Wed, 21 September 2016, 23:08:27
As a stopgap measure on the hole discussion, would you consider adding another JSON parameter that converts the next key into a hole?
The following parameter...Code: [Select]{_h:3},""
...could place a hole of 3mm at the center of the switch rather than placing the switch cutout.
Or you could interpret decals as holes. It would make building plates with extra holes somewhat simple. (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_p=DSA&a:5&fa@:0&:0&:0&:0&:0&:0&:9%3B&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_y:-0.25&x:0.75&p=OEM&a:7%3B&=&=%3B&@_y:-0.5&p=DSA&a:5&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_y:-0.5&x:0.75&p=OEM&a:7%3B&=&=%3B&@_y:-0.25&p=DSA&a:5&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:0.25&d:true%3B&=3mm%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='fa%20fa-crosshairs'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E)
That feels pretty ghetto to me. I would prefer to just solve the problem once in a more elegant and flexible way.
Post by: IBNobody on Thu, 22 September 2016, 09:15:06
That feels pretty ghetto to me. I would prefer to just solve the problem once in a more elegant and flexible way.
I would want that, too, but you are probably 5-6 months out from getting the full feature. I thought this might be a quick way for you to turn out a feature for advanced users.
Post by: swill on Thu, 22 September 2016, 10:03:31
That feels pretty ghetto to me. I would prefer to just solve the problem once in a more elegant and flexible way.
I would want that, too, but you are probably 5-6 months out from getting the full feature. I thought this might be a quick way for you to turn out a feature for advanced users.
I just need to find some time that I can focus on this. It will only take me about 2 weeks to develop it correctly, but I only get like an hour or two a night right now which makes it hard to be productive. Trying to get all the outdoor renos done before the snow flies, and it looks like winter is coming early this year here in Canada...
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 24 September 2016, 01:58:35
In terms of screw, hole and spacer-wise, It's a gold mine (and other aspects too :)
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sat, 24 September 2016, 07:00:42
Here it is, next to one of the cutouts how they come out of the builder.
(http://puu.sh/rm7dM/436aedd82b.png)
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 September 2016, 07:13:30
I totally forgot that I wanted to post about the cutouts I designed. Turns out I kinda f*ed up the measurements I had, resulting in the cut at the stabwire being too close to the stabhousing and the cut on the other side (where the stabs clip into the PCB) being too far away. I'll post my edited cutout measurements here, I hope there are people here that have access to a 3D printer or a laser cutter and a few scrap pieces of acrylic to test the fitment. In theory it should fit, but you never know for sure.Can you give us a little more context around why you created a new cutout? What are the problems being solved and what is the rational for the size and shape?
Here it is, next to one of the cutouts how they come out of the builder.Show Image(http://puu.sh/rm7dM/436aedd82b.png)
I am sure some of us can figure it out, but it helps if we get a good description so we can have a good conversation about it and potentially adding it to the tool.
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sat, 24 September 2016, 07:59:26
Can you give us a little more context around why you created a new cutout? What are the problems being solved and what is the rational for the size and shape?
I am sure some of us can figure it out, but it helps if we get a good description so we can have a good conversation about it and potentially adding it to the tool.
Sure, no problem.
You see, when you get into thicker acrylic plates (or thicker plates in general) for use with a PCB it is impossible to use your current cutouts since there won't be any space for the stab wires and part of the housing. There are two ways of fixing this, one is machining out the plastic that would interfere with the stabs like zennasyndroxx did here:
(http://i.imgur.com/Hv04mhL.jpg)
But that can't be made with a laser cutter, so I chose a different route, similar to what you can see on winkeyless.kr boards, where everything that interferes with the stabilizer is simply cut out of the whole plate:
(http://i.imgur.com/pDdawS7.jpg)
This also allows for the stabilizer to be removed without removing the plate. So, not having to desolder ALL switches when one stabilizer goes bad, in fact even without having to desolder a single switch.
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 September 2016, 08:13:49
Great. Thanks for the use case. So this is specifically for thicker plates when using a PCB because there is no space between the plate and the PCB for the Cherry PCB mount stabilizer wire. This makes sense.Can you give us a little more context around why you created a new cutout? What are the problems being solved and what is the rational for the size and shape?
I am sure some of us can figure it out, but it helps if we get a good description so we can have a good conversation about it and potentially adding it to the tool.
Sure, no problem.
You see, when you get into thicker acrylic plates (or thicker plates in general) for use with a PCB it is impossible to use your current cutouts since there won't be any space for the stab wires and part of the housing. There are two ways of fixing this, one is machining out the plastic that would interfere with the stabs like zennasyndroxx did here:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Hv04mhL.jpg)
But that can't be made with a laser cutter, so I chose a different route, similar to what you can see on winkeyless.kr boards, where everything that interferes with the stabilizer is simply cut out of the whole plate:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/pDdawS7.jpg)
This also allows for the stabilizer to be removed without removing the plate. So, not having to desolder ALL switches when one stabilizer goes bad, in fact even without having to desolder a single switch.
So I guess nothing will need to clip into the cutout or anything, so it just needs enough space that everything will be able to fit inside the cutout and operate without anything touching. Is that right?
So what measurements were wrong with the first attempt and what are you adjusting?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sat, 24 September 2016, 09:56:32
So I guess nothing will need to clip into the cutout or anything, so it just needs enough space that everything will be able to fit inside the cutout and operate without anything touching. Is that right?
So what measurements were wrong with the first attempt and what are you adjusting?
1: Correct
2: I accidentally swapped the measurements for the wire and non-wire side of the housing, so there was over 1mm room left on the non-wire side (the side that has the clip) and not enough room on the wire side (the side with the plastic hook). If you look at the picture I moved the upper ledge up by 1,2mm and the lower ledge up by 1mm. It could potentially still be not the best fit, so it needs further testing.
Also note that this design would need to be mirrorable if it indeed gets added to the tool since some PCB's insert the stabs the other way around.
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 September 2016, 10:14:42
I can review the measurements of a PCB stab in a PCB with a caliper to verify your numbers as well. I have one handy here as well as a Sprit plate which has a similar type of cutout.
So I guess nothing will need to clip into the cutout or anything, so it just needs enough space that everything will be able to fit inside the cutout and operate without anything touching. Is that right?
So what measurements were wrong with the first attempt and what are you adjusting?
1: Correct
2: I accidentally swapped the measurements for the wire and non-wire side of the housing, so there was over 1mm room left on the non-wire side (the side that has the clip) and not enough room on the wire side (the side with the plastic hook). If you look at the picture I moved the upper ledge up by 1,2mm and the lower ledge up by 1mm. It could potentially still be not the best fit, so it needs further testing.
Also note that this design would need to be mirrorable if it indeed gets added to the tool since some PCB's insert the stabs the other way around.
As for the ''mirror" details, I would suggest we make the cutout specific for one orientation, and if have rotated stabilizers, they just specify the `{_rs:180}` object value for that key in the layout to rotate the stabilizer by 180° in the output. I need to spend some time to make some of these features more obvious for people, but the documentation does cover most of those details pretty well.
Post by: MacGruber117 on Tue, 11 October 2016, 17:18:43
Post by: axtran on Sat, 26 November 2016, 23:39:35
As for the ''mirror" details, I would suggest we make the cutout specific for one orientation, and if have rotated stabilizers, they just specify the `{_rs:180}` object value for that key in the layout to rotate the stabilizer by 180° in the output. I need to spend some time to make some of these features more obvious for people, but the documentation does cover most of those details pretty well.
Figured I'd add to this AWESOME thread instead of PMs which don't help any others :)
When do you estimate that you can add the 5mm plate option (similar to us making custom sprit-style plates)? I'd love to have one of them run through Ponoko for a custom plate, totally understand that it'd have to be specific to PCB mount stabilizers only. And the GH60 Rev. C would require some stabilizer rotation (180 deg).
Post by: swill on Sat, 26 November 2016, 23:51:08
As for the ''mirror" details, I would suggest we make the cutout specific for one orientation, and if have rotated stabilizers, they just specify the `{_rs:180}` object value for that key in the layout to rotate the stabilizer by 180° in the output. I need to spend some time to make some of these features more obvious for people, but the documentation does cover most of those details pretty well.
Figured I'd add to this AWESOME thread instead of PMs which don't help any others :)
When do you estimate that you can add the 5mm plate option (similar to us making custom sprit-style plates)? I'd love to have one of them run through Ponoko for a custom plate, totally understand that it'd have to be specific to PCB mount stabilizers only. And the GH60 Rev. C would require some stabilizer rotation (180 deg).
For your 5mm plate, you are basically missing stabilizer cutout which are large enough to work for plate mounted stabilizers with a 5mm plate?
The feature I am currently adding will allow you to add or subtract any polygon to any layer of the case, so with that you would be able to add extra space around the stabilizer in order for it to work with the 5mm plate. The dynamic UI including error handling and data collection is basically done. I just have to pass that data to the back end and write the logic to apply it to the layers. Life has been crazy for me the last few months, so I have had pretty limited time. I need to find another 10-12 hours to work on this to get this feature to get at least the first iteration out. Not sure how quickly I can get through that, but it is my current focus for the builder.
Post by: axtran on Sun, 27 November 2016, 00:36:56
For your 5mm plate, you are basically missing stabilizer cutout which are large enough to work for plate mounted stabilizers with a 5mm plate?
The feature I am currently adding will allow you to add or subtract any polygon to any layer of the case, so with that you would be able to add extra space around the stabilizer in order for it to work with the 5mm plate. The dynamic UI including error handling and data collection is basically done. I just have to pass that data to the back end and write the logic to apply it to the layers. Life has been crazy for me the last few months, so I have had pretty limited time. I need to find another 10-12 hours to work on this to get this feature to get at least the first iteration out. Not sure how quickly I can get through that, but it is my current focus for the builder.
I guess I'm essentially looking for PCB mount stabilizer holes (rather simple rectangular instead of the complex Cherry Plate Mount cuts) combined with the little trench/channel for the wire to run from stabilizer mount on left to stabilizer mount on right. I don't know the measurements required for the "trenches."
Combine that with your function to already accomodate requirements to "flip" the stabilized keys (as is the case of the GH60 Rev. C PCB having "non-Poker-standard" PCB mount stabilizer configurations) and that would be perfect!
Post by: seattle_ice on Tue, 29 November 2016, 01:27:51
Post by: swill on Tue, 29 November 2016, 06:15:07
I recently used the keyboard layout tool and the plate builder to order a laser cut piece, and it worked great except I had to change all the stroke weights to .01mm as per their requirements? Any chance you could add that option to the plate builder? I understand it adds a level of complexity to the math when calculating the paths.That is trivial for me to add, I can make sure it is in the next release. I think I have it defaulting to 0.02mm right now.
Post by: IBNobody on Tue, 06 December 2016, 14:04:29
I just got a second reorder from Lasergist, and I wanted to suggest making brushing on both sides the default option when ordering using your tool. This second reorder was back-side-brushed, and it got rid of all the slag present on my first order. It saved me about an hour of filing / cleanup.
Post by: swill on Tue, 06 December 2016, 14:07:37
Hey Swill.Ya. I can do that. That is a good idea. Thanks for confirming.
I just got a second reorder from Lasergist, and I wanted to suggest making brushing on both sides the default option when ordering using your tool. This second reorder was back-side-brushed, and it got rid of all the slag present on my first order. It saved me about an hour of filing / cleanup.
Post by: HeroXLazer on Sat, 10 December 2016, 10:06:49
http://lasergist.com/design-guidelines/
Post by: clappingcactus on Fri, 16 December 2016, 18:42:39
When designing for a plate that supports both cherry and alps, do I need to design it so that it takes both cherry and alps stabs? This may seem trivial to someone who has done this before, but I'm just confused because I understand there are many kinds of stabs and is there no latter way to convert a plate made for cherry stabs so that it could support alps?
Aside from the obvious PCB limitations, are there any limitations that I otherwise should consider with regards to trying to fit both designs into a single plate?
Is there any way in the tool to allow for non-rectangular borders, or do I need to download the .dxf and edit it in illustrator so that a new line is included as the border I intend?
When sending the .dxf to a cutter, what thickness should my plate be requested as? I've heard both 3mm and 1.5mm. This would be going into a VE.A.
Post by: duynguyenle on Fri, 16 December 2016, 19:25:05
Hi all. Trying to design a custom plate and am overwhelmed. Grateful for this tool, but overwhelmed otherwise. :)
When designing for a plate that supports both cherry and alps, do I need to design it so that it takes both cherry and alps stabs? This may seem trivial to someone who has done this before, but I'm just confused because I understand there are many kinds of stabs and is there no latter way to convert a plate made for cherry stabs so that it could support alps?
Aside from the obvious PCB limitations, are there any limitations that I otherwise should consider with regards to trying to fit both designs into a single plate?
Is there any way in the tool to allow for non-rectangular borders, or do I need to download the .dxf and edit it in illustrator so that a new line is included as the border I intend?
When sending the .dxf to a cutter, what thickness should my plate be requested as? I've heard both 3mm and 1.5mm. This would be going into a VE.A.
For MX, 1.5mm, for Alps, 1.2mm. There's no easy way to have both Cherry and Alps stabs. You're better off making separate plates with each type of stabiliser cutouts.
Post by: XMIT on Sat, 17 December 2016, 07:38:34
I want to add some profiles to support XMIT Hall Effect boards for folks looking to cut their own cases. I'm happy to write the code myself and shoot you a pull request but I need to know where to hack! This seems out of date:
https://github.com/swill/kb_builder
Post by: swill on Sat, 17 December 2016, 08:56:41
hey swill - where is the github repo for the *current* backend to your keyboard plate tool?It is currently not open source because I didn't have enough time to dedicate to working on this AND managing it as an open source project. PM me and we can work out a way for you to contribute, but with my current workload and the fact that I have the guts open right now makes it a little hard for me to open source it at this point.
I want to add some profiles to support XMIT Hall Effect boards for folks looking to cut their own cases. I'm happy to write the code myself and shoot you a pull request but I need to know where to hack! This seems out of date:
https://github.com/swill/kb_builder
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: XMIT on Sat, 17 December 2016, 09:02:46
hey swill - where is the github repo for the *current* backend to your keyboard plate tool?It is currently not open source because I didn't have enough time to dedicate to working on this AND managing it as an open source project. PM me and we can work out a way for you to contribute, but with my current workload and the fact that I have the guts open right now makes it a little hard for me to open source it at this point.
I want to add some profiles to support XMIT Hall Effect boards for folks looking to cut their own cases. I'm happy to write the code myself and shoot you a pull request but I need to know where to hack! This seems out of date:
https://github.com/swill/kb_builder
That's more than fair, thanks for the response! :thumb:
Lots of folks have been asking about custom plates for the XMIT boards. I had the idea a while back to help contribute to your tool.
Okay, I'll work on documenting the plate dimensional requirements and we can go from there. I'll send you a PM once I have something to share.
Post by: swill on Sat, 17 December 2016, 09:05:25
Perfect. I need to get this set of features wrapped up because I have had the guts open for over a month trying to get these features finished. I work full time and have my own company which I run on evenings and weekends, so this project competes for my very small amount of free time. :)hey swill - where is the github repo for the *current* backend to your keyboard plate tool?It is currently not open source because I didn't have enough time to dedicate to working on this AND managing it as an open source project. PM me and we can work out a way for you to contribute, but with my current workload and the fact that I have the guts open right now makes it a little hard for me to open source it at this point.
I want to add some profiles to support XMIT Hall Effect boards for folks looking to cut their own cases. I'm happy to write the code myself and shoot you a pull request but I need to know where to hack! This seems out of date:
https://github.com/swill/kb_builder
That's more than fair, thanks for the response! :thumb:
Lots of folks have been asking about custom plates for the XMIT boards. I had the idea a while back to help contribute to your tool.
Okay, I'll work on documenting the plate dimensional requirements and we can go from there. I'll send you a PM once I have something to share.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: XMIT on Sat, 17 December 2016, 11:23:47
Don't hold your breath but I'll try to get some measurements drawn up for everyone interested. :thumb:
Post by: swill on Sat, 17 December 2016, 12:21:40
That sounds familiar. Day job during the day, anything related to XMIT Keyboards night and weekends., oh and kids. :eek:Ya exactly. Wife, kids, startup, side projects = no free time. Haha.
Don't hold your breath but I'll try to get some measurements drawn up for everyone interested. :thumb:
I will make an effort over the holidays to get the new builder features launched so I can get on your use case once you have the details together.
Thanks for the interest and supporting the builder project. This thing is starting to take a life of its own.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: RealLaugh on Mon, 26 December 2016, 05:20:42
I can't get the space bar switch position centred with the stabilisers. I have tried messing around myself but this is the only roadblock left.
Below is the raw data from the layout editor along with a couple of images, is it me or is the space bar switch not aligned with the stabilisers on the back plate?
(http://i.imgur.com/QGd2FrQ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/4erLS1E.png)
Code: [Select]
["ESC","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","Back Space"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"Reserved"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl",{w:1},"Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{w:6},"",{w:1.5},"Alt",{w:1},"Win",{w:1},"Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]Settings in the plate builder: Poker case, 5mm diameter holes, 2mm radius edges, ALPS stabalizers and switches...
This tool is incredible for anyone who is piecing a custom or strange layout together, I'm very grateful to use it, thank you Swill.
Post by: swill on Mon, 26 December 2016, 07:25:17
For now the only way to fix it is to add an addition key and use a -x position to put it in the right place over top of the other cutout and the tool will know what you want and will union the cutout. I am not sure how it will clip into the plate, being alps, but if you are using a PCB, it should be fine.
Let me know if you have questions.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: RealLaugh on Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:03:44
Yes. You are right. Currently the tool is focused on MX layouts. Because of that, the 6u spacebar defaults to off center. I need to make it so when alps switches are selected, that goes back to center stem.
For now the only way to fix it is to add an addition key and use a -x position to put it in the right place over top of the other cutout and the tool will know what you want and will union the cutout. I am not sure how it will clip into the plate, being alps, but if you are using a PCB, it should be fine.
Let me know if you have questions.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
BEFORE EDIT: Hey thanks for the help already. I tried the -x pos but in addition to the space bar also moved the left stabiliser mount which then cover over the left alt key. I also tried to manually change the switch for the space bar to MX but it doesn't seem to be an issue with the switch type but more the space bar length as you previously mentioned. If I change the bar to 6.25 it works fine, I'll go with this funky non-modifier layout seeming as the only one I use frequently is the CTRL which I can map to CAPS LOCK and then remap another key that I don't use that often to something like ALT or WINDOWS keys.
(http://i.imgur.com/Iy38hW3.png)
EDIT: WAIT a minute! I get what you mean. If 6.25 works fine then I need to apply the 6.25 to the space bar with a -x of 0.25 like so: {x:-0.25,w:6.25} then it will work as I needed with the 6u space bar!
(http://i.imgur.com/S4n2KGD.png)
That's right then?
Post by: swill on Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:37:14
This will draw an additional cutout for the switch in the correct position without messing with the stabilizer holes.
Is that clearer? I have a post about this in the thread, but having a hard time finding it on my phone. Does this make sense?
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:40:33
Review this and let me know if this clears things up.
If you put the key after and position with negative X, you can see it in KLE. If you put it before and position right, then you won't see it in KLE because the next key will be drawn over it. Both work just fine from the tools perspective.
Let me know if this clears things up.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: RealLaugh on Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:41:54
Found it: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2237318.msg#2237318
Review this and let me know if this clears things up.
If you put the key after and position with negative X, you can see it in KLE. If you put it before and position right, then you won't see it in KLE because the next key will be drawn over it. Both work just fine from the tools perspective.
Let me know if this clears things up.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Thanks for all this, I will read up on it all and check it out.
Post by: RealLaugh on Mon, 26 December 2016, 10:14:08
Found it: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189.msg2237318.msg#2237318
Review this and let me know if this clears things up.
If you put the key after and position with negative X, you can see it in KLE. If you put it before and position right, then you won't see it in KLE because the next key will be drawn over it. Both work just fine from the tools perspective.
Let me know if this clears things up.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
So based on what you did with the MX example I was able to play around with the builder again and come up with the below layout which seems to do the trick! :thumb:
(http://i.imgur.com/mpiXsY7.png)
Code: [Select]
["ESC","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","Back Space"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"Reserved"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],[{w:1.5},"Ctrl",{w:1},"Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{x:2.25},"manual",{x:-3.25,w:6},"",{w:1.5},"Alt",{w:1},"Win",{w:1},"Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
Post by: swill on Mon, 26 December 2016, 10:40:08
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: RealLaugh on Wed, 28 December 2016, 19:23:29
Awesome. Looking good. :)
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Thanks for the help! Submitted it to the 3D printers a day or so ago let's see how that turns out (in terms or precision and quality).
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Thu, 29 December 2016, 22:24:54
I present to you, Custom Polygons!!!
Wow, these features have taken forever. It has been about 4 months in the making, delayed by life and renos, but I have finally finished the Custom Polygons feature which I have been working on. I am sure there are still bugs, so please be gentle, but I have done quite a bit of testing.
Alright, so what does this mean?
Now you have another set of options which allow you to both Add and Remove different polygons from any/every layer of a case. There are 3 built in polygons; Circle, Rectangle, and Rounded Rectangle. In addition to these, there is the Custom Polygon option which lets you define your own polygon and apply it. If you define your own polygon, you must define the path points in a clockwise order.
In addition, I have built in a coordinate system and an expression handler for the points. x and y are valid values, and they represent 1/2 the width and 1/2 the height respectfully. The center of the case is defined as [0,0], so the top left is [-x,-y], top right is [x,-y], bottom right is [x,y], and bottom left is [-x,y]. Each value of a coordinate can be an arithmetic expression, so this is a valid coordinate; [(x-6)/2,-y]. In a list, coordinates are separated by the ';', so for example: [0,0]; [5,-5]; [25,-5]; [30,0]; [25,5]; [5,5].
Here is an example of adding a Custom Polygon (the tabs) at 4 different coordinate points, and then cutting a circle in the tab for something like screw holes.
[attachimg=1]
Which results in the following.
[attachimg=2]
Many of the things that have been requested recently can be solved with this feature. Such as, supporting PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers with 3mm switch plates.
Let me know if you have problems. Also, let me know if there are fixes you are waiting for. I have been absorbed in this, so I have not gotten to fixing some of the bugs people have reported.
Happy Holidays everyone. Enjoy...
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 29 December 2016, 23:40:27
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!!
I present to you, Custom Polygons!!!
Wow, these features have taken forever. It has been about 4 months in the making, delayed by life and renos, but I have finally finished the Custom Polygons feature which I have been working on. I am sure there are still bugs, so please be gentle, but I have done quite a bit of testing.
Alright, so what does this mean?
Now you have another set of options which allow you to both Add and Remove different polygons from any/every layer of a case. There are 3 built in polygons; Circle, Rectangle, and Rounded Rectangle. In addition to these, there is the Custom Polygon option which lets you define your own polygon and apply it. If you define your own polygon, you must define the path points in a clockwise order.
In addition, I have built in a coordinate system and an expression handler for the points. x and y are valid values, and they represent 1/2 the width and 1/2 the height respectfully. The center of the case is defined as [0,0], so the top left is [-x,-y], top right is [x,-y], bottom right is [x,y], and bottom left is [-x,y]. Each value of a coordinate can be an arithmetic expression, so this is a valid coordinate; [(x-6)/2,-y]. In a list, coordinates are separated by the ';', so for example: [0,0]; [5,-5]; [25,-5]; [30,0]; [25,5]; [5,5].
Here is an example of adding a Custom Polygon (the tabs) at 4 different coordinate points, and then cutting a circle in the tab for something like screw holes.
(Attachment Link)
Which results in the following.
(Attachment Link)
Many of the things that have been requested recently can be solved with this feature. Such as, supporting PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers with 3mm switch plates.
Let me know if you have problems. Also, let me know if there are fixes you are waiting for. I have been absorbed in this, so I have not gotten to fixing some of the bugs people have reported.
Happy Holidays everyone. Enjoy...
Very cool! Happy holidays swill!
Post by: swill on Thu, 29 December 2016, 23:53:58
Very cool! Happy holidays swill!
Thanks Nathan. I hope you are having a nice holiday as well. I know there has been some talk about getting together again in MTL, would be good to catch up. :)
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 30 December 2016, 00:04:10
Very cool! Happy holidays swill!
Thanks Nathan. I hope you are having a nice holiday as well. I know there has been some talk about getting together again in MTL, would be good to catch up. :)
It's been a well needed break, cheers! I will definitely get involved in the next meetup, I managed to pick quite a lot of new things since the last one :thumb:
Post by: swill on Wed, 18 January 2017, 22:02:48
The builder now has an assistant, or at least a new friend. builder-docs.swillkb.com (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com) will guide you through the different features of the builder and answer a lot of the questions you didn't realize you had. :)
If there are topics you would like covered in the Docs which are not currently covered, please either write a post here, or create a pull request to contribute to the documentation.
Let me know if you have any outstanding questions... Cheers...
Post by: swill on Mon, 06 February 2017, 17:07:02
I added the ability to specify the Line Weight for the resulting CAD files. This feature is to help conform the output of the tool to be consistent with the requirements of different fabrication shops.
So the settings for Ponoko, for example, would be Line Color = blue, Line Weight = 0.01
Post by: zombimuncha on Tue, 07 February 2017, 05:05:09
How do I do MX/Alps stabs using doubled Alps-style plate-mount stabs? Like this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1486047#msg1486047
I get that I can use the custom polygon tool for it, but how will I know what numbers to put in the boxes?
thx!
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 February 2017, 06:49:16
Hello,Why are they different heights? Is that part of the design?
How do I do MX/Alps stabs using doubled Alps-style plate-mount stabs? Like this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1486047#msg1486047
I get that I can use the custom polygon tool for it, but how will I know what numbers to put in the boxes?
thx!
So you could draw two different stab cutouts by drawing two keys in the same location with two different sizes and it will draw two different stabs.
I will tests on my way to work and see if I can show you.
Post by: wodan on Tue, 07 February 2017, 06:58:00
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 February 2017, 08:06:33
Hello,
How do I do MX/Alps stabs using doubled Alps-style plate-mount stabs? Like this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1486047#msg1486047
I get that I can use the custom polygon tool for it, but how will I know what numbers to put in the boxes?
thx!
Sorry, I didn't get to giving you an example of the overlapping keys on my train ride this morning. Instead I worked on a feature that will help solve this problem (and all similar problems) in a much more elegant way. I should be able to finish it on the train ride home tonight and should have it launched later tonight with documentation for how to use it.
My first suggestion uses this technique. It may help, but won't let you offset the stabilizers so they can be different heights. http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts
I am working on a better way to handle overrides per key right now.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 07 February 2017, 08:29:27
NEW Documentation Site!!!
The builder now has an assistant, or at least a new friend. builder-docs.swillkb.com (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com) will guide you through the different features of the builder and answer a lot of the questions you didn't realize you had. :)
If there are topics you would like covered in the Docs which are not currently covered, please either write a post here, or create a pull request to contribute to the documentation.
Let me know if you have any outstanding questions... Cheers...
Some minor feedback on the documention; it would be nice to have some kind of boarder/drop shadow around the images on the front page. As the images are of the actual UI interface it's a bit confusing to see HTML buttons that are not clickable.
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 February 2017, 08:42:27
Never a bad time to re-confirm this is one of the best and most helpful tools in the keyboard community. You keep the improvements flowing and even added proper documentation. Doesn't stop to amaze me.
Thank you. I try to keep adding useful features. Gotta support the builders. :)
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 February 2017, 08:43:59
NEW Documentation Site!!!
The builder now has an assistant, or at least a new friend. builder-docs.swillkb.com (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com) will guide you through the different features of the builder and answer a lot of the questions you didn't realize you had. :)
If there are topics you would like covered in the Docs which are not currently covered, please either write a post here, or create a pull request to contribute to the documentation.
Let me know if you have any outstanding questions... Cheers...
Some minor feedback on the documentation; it would be nice to have some kind of boarder/drop shadow around the images on the front page. As the images are of the actual UI interface it's a bit confusing to see HTML buttons that are not clickable.
Haha. Thanks Nathan, I had not thought of that. I will look into it and see what I can come up with to make that clearer.
Post by: swill on Tue, 07 February 2017, 22:43:17
Tonight I launched a new addition to the custom polygons feature which will make a bunch of common tasks easier.
Some examples:
- Supporting cherry stabilizers for 3mm plates by adding an additional cutout for the stabilizer wire to fit.
- Supporting the use case that @zombimuncha mentioned in the below quote.
So whats the feature???
I have added the ability to draw custom polygons based on the center point of a switch by adding the new {_c:"<index>[,<index>,...]"} details object for a specific key. So for example, if you have two custom polygons defined with index values of 0 and 1, then you can draw both of those custom polygons based on a center of a switch using the code {_c:"0,1"}.
Here is an example based on @zombimuncha's request.
In the Plate Layout (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout) section, add the object detail to a key (Backspace in this example): {w:2,_c:"0,1"},"Backspace"
Then in the Custom Polygons (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons) section, add the polygons as shown in the below image.
NOTE: The values of [10.5-1.333,8-2.6];[10.5+1.333,8-2.6];[10.5+1.333,8+2.6];[10.5-1.333,8+2.6] and [-10.5-1.333,8-2.6];[-10.5+1.333,8-2.6];[-10.5+1.333,8+2.6];[-10.5-1.333,8+2.6] are entirely untested, I just threw in some numbers to make it look something like the linked example. The main reason I am showing these details is to get @zombimuncha started with his usecase. The important thing to note here is that the Alps Stabilizer cutout is 5.2mm tall and 2.666mm wide. In this case, I am using equations to do the placement so it is easier to modify placement without having to actually do math. So if you wanted to move the placement up by 1mm you can just change the 8 to a 7. I hope that makes sense...
[attachimg=1]
The Builder Docs (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/) have been updated to reflect these changes as well, so check the docs if you have questions. Let me know if the docs are not clear on anything...
Enjoy... :)
Hello,
How do I do MX/Alps stabs using doubled Alps-style plate-mount stabs? Like this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1486047#msg1486047
I get that I can use the custom polygon tool for it, but how will I know what numbers to put in the boxes?
thx!
Post by: zombimuncha on Wed, 08 February 2017, 01:17:14
One more Q - is MX/Alps + hand wiring a bad idea? Like would either of the switch types be wobbly or unstable without a pcb?
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Wed, 08 February 2017, 10:06:29
rockstar!
One more Q - is MX/Alps + hand wiring a bad idea? Like would either of the switch types be wobbly or unstable without a pcb?
If your plate is the right thickness, MX switches will lock into the plate very securely as theres a latching mechanism on the switch casing.
Alps don't seem to hold as well with just a plate. It's more of a friction fit (at least with the Matias switches I've used). Still possible!
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 February 2017, 10:30:00
rockstar!
One more Q - is MX/Alps + hand wiring a bad idea? Like would either of the switch types be wobbly or unstable without a pcb?
So the MX + Alps cutout is the least stable of all of the cutouts. The MX switches will clip in, but I have found that they can slide back and forth a little bit (maybe 1/2 a mm in play?). Usually, when people hand wire, they just go with the standard square MX cutout or the rectangular Alps cutout because they are the most stable. Since you don't have a PCB, you can just pop the switch out if the plate if you need to open them, so you are still able to open them if you want to. Does that make sense?
Post by: zombimuncha on Wed, 08 February 2017, 15:10:02
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 February 2017, 15:12:13
OK, I was thinking of making two identical boards, one with Alps and one with ErgoClears, but it seems like if I'm gonna do that I should first learn how to design a PCB. Or just pick one switch and do one thing at a time ;-)
Why not just hand wire both and get one cut with square MX cutouts and the other with Alps cutouts? It won't change the fabrication costs. If anything it will make them lower because both boards will be simpler to cut.
Post by: zombimuncha on Thu, 09 February 2017, 03:12:17
It won't change the fabrication costs. If anything it will make them lower because both boards will be simpler to cut.
Interesting. Will look into it.
cheers!
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 February 2017, 17:08:37
Hey all. So the integration with lasergist is going well. I see a lot of people using the integration, so that is good. The obvious missing piece is a supplier to offers a less expensive service cutting materials like acrylic. I am looking for suggestions for who to contact to potentially integrate with to give us acrylic cutting support as well.
I have been back and forth with Ponoko, but they are not willing to give me access to their API without me jumping through a ****load of stupid hoops, which I have no time or energy to do just to prove there is a demand.
I found Outfab online who looks promising, so I have emailed them (have not heard back yet).
I have not yet contacted BigBlueSaw, but they are another contender for acrylic cutting (but last I checked their pricing was pretty steep on acrylic).
So the question remains. Which laser cutting suppliers do you think are setup with a modern enough system that I could potentially create an integration with, who offer laser cutting at a competitive price? Ideas?
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 February 2017, 20:59:37
Post by: tobsn on Fri, 17 February 2017, 07:01:47
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 February 2017, 09:19:34
Ponoko in the US and then for the EU they have a partner that uses the same system as Ponoko called http://formulor.de/ - that would make integration easier ;)
Yes, if I am able to do an integration with Ponoko. They want me to go crazy and implement a shopping cart and a payment gateway and an ordering system just to prove the demand. After that they will consider giving me API access. Which is bull**** because I don't need any of that IF we do an API integration, so it makes no sense... :(
Post by: tobsn on Fri, 17 February 2017, 09:22:58
Yes, if I am able to do an integration with Ponoko. They want me to go crazy and implement a shopping cart and a payment gateway and an ordering system just to prove the demand. After that they will consider giving me API access. Which is bull**** because I don't need any of that IF we do an API integration, so it makes no sense... :(
ouch... well... you could reverse it and say an API would enable more sales and they can start right away with you implementing it - just show them stats from laser gist plus maybe explain that this API would also affect formulator since they use Ponokos system they would automatically also have the API and could be implemented within minutes.
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Post by: swill on Fri, 17 February 2017, 10:03:42
Yes, if I am able to do an integration with Ponoko. They want me to go crazy and implement a shopping cart and a payment gateway and an ordering system just to prove the demand. After that they will consider giving me API access. Which is bull**** because I don't need any of that IF we do an API integration, so it makes no sense... :(
ouch... well... you could reverse it and say an API would enable more sales and they can start right away with you implementing it - just show them stats from laser gist plus maybe explain that this API would also affect formulator since they use Ponokos system they would automatically also have the API and could be implemented within minutes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ya, that is how I started the conversation. The irony is that if I integrate with a different service, they will then realize the demand because they will likely lose a lot of business from my tool which they currently have. I will talk to formulator and see if that conversation goes better. I get the feeling that Ponoko thinks they have the market cornered and they don't have to work with anyone and they can just dictate the industry. I guess we will see...
Post by: tobsn on Fri, 17 February 2017, 12:06:47
Ya, that is how I started the conversation. The irony is that if I integrate with a different service, they will then realize the demand because they will likely lose a lot of business from my tool which they currently have. I will talk to formulator and see if that conversation goes better. I get the feeling that Ponoko thinks they have the market cornered and they don't have to work with anyone and they can just dictate the industry. I guess we will see...
Dictating the market seems to be the theme in this industry haha... well, just be careful with formulator, they're more expensive then Ponoko and they ship only to a few countries in the EU, last time I checked.
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 February 2017, 12:26:40
Ya, that is how I started the conversation. The irony is that if I integrate with a different service, they will then realize the demand because they will likely lose a lot of business from my tool which they currently have. I will talk to formulator and see if that conversation goes better. I get the feeling that Ponoko thinks they have the market cornered and they don't have to work with anyone and they can just dictate the industry. I guess we will see...
Dictating the market seems to be the theme in this industry haha... well, just be careful with formulator, they're more expensive then Ponoko and they ship only to a few countries in the EU, last time I checked.
Ya, that is not really a good fit. I am hopeful that Outfab will pan out. They seem to be pretty well setup with the technology side and hopefully they are competitive price wise.
Edit: Thank you for the feedback btw... :)
Post by: tobsn on Fri, 17 February 2017, 16:24:14
Ya, that is not really a good fit. I am hopeful that Outfab will pan out. They seem to be pretty well setup with the technology side and hopefully they are competitive price wise.
Edit: Thank you for the feedback btw... :)
You should definitely find someone for the EU, would be nice to have someone available besides lasergist that is also "local".
No problem, since it benefits my future projects and the first mechanical keyboard I owned was built via your tool... let me know if you need translation help with ze Germans ;)
Post by: swill on Fri, 17 February 2017, 16:36:36
Ya, that is not really a good fit. I am hopeful that Outfab will pan out. They seem to be pretty well setup with the technology side and hopefully they are competitive price wise.
Edit: Thank you for the feedback btw... :)
You should definitely find someone for the EU, would be nice to have someone available besides lasergist that is also "local".
No problem, since it benefits my future projects and the first mechanical keyboard I owned was built via your tool... let me know if you need translation help with ze Germans ;)
Yes, having options for different regions is awesome. Being able to be competitive in price has to be high on the list though otherwise an integration doesn't really make sense.
Post by: twelvebore on Sun, 19 February 2017, 10:54:01
Awesome tool by the way :)
Post by: swill on Sun, 19 February 2017, 12:26:58
Lasergist are now offering a new bead-blasted finish, which looks pretty awesome. Any chance that that could be added to the drop-down when purchasing through your site?I will check with them. Thanks for the heads up. Is it a different price?
Awesome tool by the way :)
Post by: HeroXLazer on Sun, 19 February 2017, 14:36:20
Yes.Lasergist are now offering a new bead-blasted finish, which looks pretty awesome. Any chance that that could be added to the drop-down when purchasing through your site?I will check with them. Thanks for the heads up. Is it a different price?
Awesome tool by the way :)
Post by: CapnHighlands on Wed, 01 March 2017, 18:34:27
Post by: swill on Wed, 01 March 2017, 18:56:29
Does anyone know which cutout I would select for Gateron? I've had some issues with the switches getting squeezed (namely in the Planck) and want to make sure I'll get something that doesn't do that.The most recommended is the 'mx openable cutout' (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#switch-type).
Gateron have the same spec as MX, but there may be some slight variants. Did you cut the Planck plate with my tool too? With Lasergist or prior to that?
Post by: CapnHighlands on Wed, 01 March 2017, 19:35:56
Post by: HeroXLazer on Wed, 01 March 2017, 19:38:11
Post by: swill on Wed, 01 March 2017, 19:41:36
No it was from OLKB. I'll get the regular openable cutout - as soon as I can find a 6u spacebar wire.If you are using cherry stabs, I would recommend you bend your own. I will see if I can get a caliper on my favorite size wire later tonight.
Post by: CapnHighlands on Wed, 01 March 2017, 19:43:47
If you are using cherry stabs, I would recommend you bend your own. I will see if I can get a caliper on my favorite size wire later tonight.
I'm not sure I could do that correctly, that's the only issue.
Post by: swill on Mon, 06 March 2017, 16:24:06
Post by: swill on Mon, 06 March 2017, 19:32:06
Post by: murkey on Sat, 11 March 2017, 13:11:09
Post by: xondat on Sat, 11 March 2017, 13:30:51
Hi, I'm looking to build a plate with only PCB mount stab cutouts. Any tips?
Cherry + Costar, but I'd manually edit your plate and do your own.
Post by: tobsn on Mon, 20 March 2017, 08:22:30
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65747.0
Post by: swill on Mon, 20 March 2017, 08:35:00
hey swill, you think it's possible to add switch cut outs prepared for CNC milling?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65747.0
Yes, this is something I want to add, but I have not had enough time to actually do it yet. nudeCNC has offered to help me with this as well, but I just have not found the time to actually implement it yet.
The complicated part here is the stabilizers. The switches are pretty easy, the stabilizers, not so much...
Post by: tobsn on Mon, 20 March 2017, 10:56:38
Post by: Victriox on Tue, 28 March 2017, 16:32:29
I believe there is no template for filco/qfr ?
Thanks
Post by: CapnHighlands on Tue, 28 March 2017, 17:28:30
Post by: swill on Tue, 28 March 2017, 18:25:27
Hey Swill I'm not sure if you can help me or not, but my order shipped 15 days ago and I have no tracking number or word from Lasergist. Do you know how I can find out what's going on?I don't have any visibility into the fulfillment, so I don't know the best way to track it down. I would just contact Lasergist directly: http://lasergist.com/contact/
Post by: kagey on Mon, 17 April 2017, 07:56:17
Example tkl layout with tweaked bottom row (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=Esc&_x:1%3B&=F1&=F2&=F3&=F4&_x:0.5%3B&=F5&=F6&=F7&=F8&_x:0.5%3B&=F9&=F10&=F11&=F12&_x:0.25%3B&=PrtSc&=Scroll%20Lock&=Pause%0ABreak%3B&@_y:0.5%3B&=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace&_x:0.25%3B&=Insert&=Home&=PgUp%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C&_x:0.25%3B&=Delete&=End&=PgDn%3B&@_w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift&_x:1.25%3B&=%E2%86%91%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_c=%23f2c9c9&w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_c=%23cccccc&a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_x:0.25%3B&=%E2%86%90&=%E2%86%93&=%E2%86%92)
hi do you guys know the polygon definition for filco controller ? i tried to make holes for led and screws but i'm failing with controller rectangle.
I believe there is no template for filco/qfr ?
Thanks
Post by: Maydaybo on Mon, 24 April 2017, 16:01:45
Thanks, duynguyenle, it does help, and I genuinely know you mean well
But the devil is in the details, as you see most of these are bulk-sale items, digikey seems to have a $75 min-shipping cost, to top them off, sometimes customs hold these items, and you get to explain why you bought 200 screws etc. They laugh when you explain they don't sell less then 200 and you bought 200 for 2 of the item etc. (If I could get everything from Digikey, the $75 cost could be gulpable) - also, chellenges of living in Turkey, I can't order multiple international items at once, I can only safely order one thing at a time, and it takes 3-4 weeks for them to reach me (again, customs people hate regular people)
Anyway, my ultimate solution to all these problems is Shipito, buy them from US, batch them, re-declare them to be customs-friendly, send them to yourself in a batch - so now, practically, I can shop like I'm in the US, it's wonderous when buying small things like these
But still, even with all these experiences, it's unclear which parts are ideal for usage on keyboards
And again, this is my ultimate point, it would be nice to have a "vetted" list of parts, collected by our community
Hope you don't mind me asking but how did you find shipito? Read some pretty bad reviews for them but I am aware that with any big companies, there's going to be some bad reviews. Currently I've been using viabox - mainly because their shipping fees are so cheap. But it's always good to have other options.
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 07:15:00
Forgive if it's already been asked.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 May 2017, 07:46:29
Is there a way to save the input? I'd like to make fine adjustments to my design without having to enter all the polygons from scratch.
Forgive if it's already been asked.
Unfortunately, this is not available yet. This is a common request and is likely the next feature I build. I just need to find the time and get some of the little fixes out before I open up the guts again. :)
Since you brought it up, here is an outline of what I am thinking for this feature. I plan to kill two birds with one stone with this, so please keep that in mind as you offer suggestions.
Use cases to cover:
a) Enable users to 'save' and 'load' their layouts.
b) Enable users to pick a starting point from a list of 'preset' layouts.
Here are some of the key design items I am planning:
- In order to 'save', you will be able to either:
-- Download a JSON file of your layout.
-- Save the JSON file of your layout to a public Gist in your Github account.
- To 'load' a previously saved layout, you will be able to:
-- Upload a JSON file of your layout.
-- Specify the URL of a public Gist on your Github account.
- If you want to start from a preset, you will be able to select a preset layout from a dropdown list to get started.
When loading a new layout, or picking from a preset, the UI will be automatically populated with the details of the specified layout.
This is the basic idea. If you have additional features you are interested in, please let me know. If you have suggestions for alternative implementation approaches, let me know...
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 08:06:22
I believe you're covering all the required aspects for the save/load field.
On a unrelated note, a pair of rulers would be helpful when adding custom polygons.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 May 2017, 10:19:32
First off, let me say your tool is outstanding so thank you endlessly for it.'rulers' would basically give you a (somewhat imprecise) reference for the coordinate system?
I believe you're covering all the required aspects for the save/load field.
On a unrelated note, a pair of rulers would be helpful when adding custom polygons.
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 11:06:30
'rulers' would basically give you a (somewhat imprecise) reference for the coordinate system?Indeed. I don't know how many millimiters move my polygons around so I go for a guessing game. I'm not seeking for a 100% precise ruler, maybe just a toggable overlay that shows a cross through the center and some coordinates.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 May 2017, 11:15:08
'rulers' would basically give you a (somewhat imprecise) reference for the coordinate system?Indeed. I don't know how many millimiters move my polygons around so I go for a guessing game. I'm not seeking for a 100% precise ruler, maybe just a toggable overlay that shows a cross through the center and some coordinates.
Ok, let me think about that and see if I can come up with a reasonable way to do that. You do know you can use x and y to represent 1/2 width and 1/2 height respectively right? You can also use expressions when defining points, so for example: [(-x/2)+20,-y+25] (that is just a random point to illustrate the idea...)
That can help you reduce some of the 'guessing'. Let me know if that helps...
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 11:32:14
You do know you can use x and y to represent 1/2 width and 1/2 height respectively right?I was using x/2 and y/2 for half size, that confused me a lot.
Still, some reference would help.
Again, your tool is a life saver, it allows me to do things in minutes that would take days otherwise.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 May 2017, 12:15:53
You do know you can use x and y to represent 1/2 width and 1/2 height respectively right?I was using x/2 and y/2 for half size, that confused me a lot.
Still, some reference would help.
Again, your tool is a life saver, it allows me to do things in minutes that would take days otherwise.
I tried to explain it here (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons)), but it is hard for me to know how well some of this stuff comes across. It is hard for me because I am too close to the projects, so I don't know how much other people know/understand. :)
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 12:38:09
Would there be any chance to have a realtime design? Like polygons highlighted, say in red, as soon as you add your input.
Post by: swill on Mon, 01 May 2017, 13:08:54
That documentation is pretty accurate by the way.
Would there be any chance to have a realtime design? Like polygons highlighted, say in red, as soon as you add your input.
this is another feature request which has been asked for a lot. I have not started on it, but I do have the basic framework for this in place. It will require a round trip to the server, but yes, it is possible...
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 01 May 2017, 13:11:17
this is another feature request which has been asked for a lot. I have not started on it, but I do have the basic framework for this in place. It will require a round trip to the server, but yes, it is possible...Great news. Keep up the good work. :thumb:
Post by: tuckie on Tue, 16 May 2017, 22:53:30
hey swill, you think it's possible to add switch cut outs prepared for CNC milling?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65747.0
Yes, this is something I want to add, but I have not had enough time to actually do it yet. nudeCNC has offered to help me with this as well, but I just have not found the time to actually implement it yet.
The complicated part here is the stabilizers. The switches are pretty easy, the stabilizers, not so much...
Just wanted to place a vote for this. I have a CNC itching for an easy to mill plate.
Also, I saw you comments about open sourcing this a while back, any chance that idea could be revisited? (or an issue tracker at the very least?). I would love to be able to easily contribute.
Post by: zombimuncha on Sat, 24 June 2017, 13:05:35
I finally got around to using the custom-polygons-as-Alps-stabs thing, and I'm seeing some weird behaviour.
I'm getting an extra cluster of my four custom polygons in the center of the plate, in addition to the groups centered on specific switches.
[attach=1]
Any idea what's going on?
Layout JSON
More
["Esc",{x:0.25},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"Delete"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75,_s:0},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75,_c:"0,1,4,5",_s:0},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25,_s:3},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75,_s:0},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75,_c:"0,1,4,5",_s:0},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25,_s:3},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Polygons
More
0
[-14.333,3.4];[-11.667,3.4];[-11.667,8.6];[-14.333,8.6];[-14.333,3.4]
1
[14.333,3.4];[11.667,3.4];[11.667,8.6];[14.333,8.6];[14.333,3.4]
2
[11.1,4.9];[8.434,4.9];[8.434,10.1];[11.1,10.1];[11.1,4.9]
3
[-11.1,4.9];[-8.434,4.9];[-8.434,10.1];[-11.1,10.1];[-11.1,4.9]
4
[-22.8,4.9];[-20.134,4.9];[-20.134,10.1];[-22.8,10.1];[-22.8,4.9]
5
[22.8,4.9];[20.134,4.9];[20.134,10.1];[22.8,10.1];[22.8,4.9]
[-14.333,3.4];[-11.667,3.4];[-11.667,8.6];[-14.333,8.6];[-14.333,3.4]
1
[14.333,3.4];[11.667,3.4];[11.667,8.6];[14.333,8.6];[14.333,3.4]
2
[11.1,4.9];[8.434,4.9];[8.434,10.1];[11.1,10.1];[11.1,4.9]
3
[-11.1,4.9];[-8.434,4.9];[-8.434,10.1];[-11.1,10.1];[-11.1,4.9]
4
[-22.8,4.9];[-20.134,4.9];[-20.134,10.1];[-22.8,10.1];[-22.8,4.9]
5
[22.8,4.9];[20.134,4.9];[20.134,10.1];[22.8,10.1];[22.8,4.9]
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 June 2017, 13:57:04
Hi Swill,Sorry. Yes, there is a bug which i need to fix. For some reason the cutouts are being repeated at the center of the layout. I started troubleshooting it, but with my new role at the day job, i have had limited time. I will review your config and try to get to the bottom of the problem.
I finally got around to using the custom-polygons-as-Alps-stabs thing, and I'm seeing some weird behaviour.
I'm getting an extra cluster of my four custom polygons in the center of the plate, in addition to the groups centered on specific switches.
(Attachment Link)
Any idea what's going on?
Layout JSONMore["Esc",{x:0.25},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"Delete"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75,_s:0},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75,_c:"0,1,4,5",_s:0},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25,_s:3},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
PolygonsMore0
[-14.333,3.4];[-11.667,3.4];[-11.667,8.6];[-14.333,8.6];[-14.333,3.4]
1
[14.333,3.4];[11.667,3.4];[11.667,8.6];[14.333,8.6];[14.333,3.4]
2
[11.1,4.9];[8.434,4.9];[8.434,10.1];[11.1,10.1];[11.1,4.9]
3
[-11.1,4.9];[-8.434,4.9];[-8.434,10.1];[-11.1,10.1];[-11.1,4.9]
4
[-22.8,4.9];[-20.134,4.9];[-20.134,10.1];[-22.8,10.1];[-22.8,4.9]
5
[22.8,4.9];[20.134,4.9];[20.134,10.1];[22.8,10.1];[22.8,4.9]
Thanks for the reminder.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: sakai4eva on Sat, 24 June 2017, 14:08:02
Without resorting to custom polygons, I mean.
Post by: tobsn on Sat, 24 June 2017, 14:10:04
Post by: swill on Sat, 24 June 2017, 14:13:23
you can just place multiple switch sizes above each otherI believe this is what you mean right? Let me know if you mean something different or if this is not clear enough.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Post by: zombimuncha on Sat, 24 June 2017, 15:36:31
Hi Swill,Sorry. Yes, there is a bug which i need to fix. For some reason the cutouts are being repeated at the center of the layout. I started troubleshooting it, but with my new role at the day job, i have had limited time. I will review your config and try to get to the bottom of the problem.
I finally got around to using the custom-polygons-as-Alps-stabs thing, and I'm seeing some weird behaviour.
I'm getting an extra cluster of my four custom polygons in the center of the plate, in addition to the groups centered on specific switches.
(Attachment Link)
Any idea what's going on?
Layout JSONMore["Esc",{x:0.25},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"Delete"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75,_s:0},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75,_c:"0,1,4,5",_s:0},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25,_s:3},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
PolygonsMore0
[-14.333,3.4];[-11.667,3.4];[-11.667,8.6];[-14.333,8.6];[-14.333,3.4]
1
[14.333,3.4];[11.667,3.4];[11.667,8.6];[14.333,8.6];[14.333,3.4]
2
[11.1,4.9];[8.434,4.9];[8.434,10.1];[11.1,10.1];[11.1,4.9]
3
[-11.1,4.9];[-8.434,4.9];[-8.434,10.1];[-11.1,10.1];[-11.1,4.9]
4
[-22.8,4.9];[-20.134,4.9];[-20.134,10.1];[-22.8,10.1];[-22.8,4.9]
5
[22.8,4.9];[20.134,4.9];[20.134,10.1];[22.8,10.1];[22.8,4.9]
Thanks for the reminder.
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
I was able to hand code the SVG back into shape, so no hurry, eh? :cool:
Post by: stiligFox on Sun, 25 June 2017, 01:19:33
Post by: sakai4eva on Sun, 25 June 2017, 08:30:27
you can just place multiple switch sizes above each otherI believe this is what you mean right? Let me know if you mean something different or if this is not clear enough.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Thanks! That is exactly what I was looking for.
Btw, are you planning on making a new video? I can help with Fusion360, although you might wanna find a better narrator.
Post by: Jmneuv on Thu, 29 June 2017, 04:38:31
I'm trying to create a phantom custom plate but am stuck with tricking it into inserting the combinded 6.25 spacebar cutout:
[attachimg=1]
How could this be achieved from within the builder?
Another issue I had: I found a discrepancy between the original opensource phantom .dxf file and the builder output; when laying them on top of each other, the F-key row of the builder one sits about 0.2mm higher, also the switch opening gaps are about 0.1mm narrower. Which is correct then?
Post by: Loffeno on Tue, 11 July 2017, 22:24:13
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 12 July 2017, 04:06:16
Is there anyway I can find the height and width dimensions of the plate output?I open the DXF with Inkscape and measure it myself.
Post by: swill on Wed, 12 July 2017, 11:03:48
As for the slight differences in the placement of the keys you are referring to, this is likely due to a different 'key unit size' being used by the board designer. Most of the time a single key unit is assumed to be 19.05mm square. So for example, if you measure from the top left corner of two 1u keys (with a standard 14mm square cutout), the distance will be 19.05mm (usually). Another common measurement which some designers use is 19.00mm instead of 19.05mm. If this is the case with your board, this could potentially account for the differences you are seeing.
My builder (until now) always assumed that they key unit was 19.05mm. I realize that assumption is not always true, so this morning on the train to work, I added a new feature to allow you to override this default value.
[attachimg=1]
With this setting, you are able to change the key unit sizing to 19.00mm and then test to see if the output is closer to what you are expecting.
Let me know if you have any questions. I have also updated the documentation website to reflect this change: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#key-unit
Thanks for this incredible builder tool first of all.
I'm trying to create a phantom custom plate but am stuck with tricking it into inserting the combinded 6.25 spacebar cutout:
(Attachment Link)
How could this be achieved from within the builder?
Another issue I had: I found a discrepancy between the original opensource phantom .dxf file and the builder output; when laying them on top of each other, the F-key row of the builder one sits about 0.2mm higher, also the switch opening gaps are about 0.1mm narrower. Which is correct then?
Post by: swill on Wed, 12 July 2017, 11:17:30
Is there anyway I can find the height and width dimensions of the plate output? Fantastic tool btw!
Yes, this data is available in the builder, it is just does not have a graphical representation.
- Generate your drawing in Google Chrome (or Firefox) so you have the HTML 'Inspect' tool.
- Right click on the SVG produced and select 'Inspect' from the menu shown.
- The SVG element will be selected in a new window.
- Note the following HTML attributes on the parent DIV of the SVG: data-width, data-height
[attachimg=1]
Let me know if anything is not clear in this description.
An alternative way to pull this data would be to run the following JavaScript in the browser Console (if that is something you are comfortable doing):
Code: [Select]
$('#switch-layer-canvas').data();
Which results in:
[attachimg=2]
While I am at it, I might as well point out the other pieces of information in that element which could be useful to some people.
- data-width: width of the resulting plate
- data-height: height of the resulting plate
- data-area: the area of material left once the plate has been cut. this is useful to calculate the weight of the resulting plate if you know the material specs.
- data-length: the path length which the laser cutter will be expected to follow. useful for getting quotes from laser cutters.
If this is of interest to people, I could make this information visible in the UI.
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 12 July 2017, 13:39:44
If this is of interest to people, I could make this information visible in the UI.Please do.
Post by: swill on Wed, 12 July 2017, 15:45:44
If this is of interest to people, I could make this information visible in the UI.Please do.
Because all the data was already in the UI and I just had to display it, it was a very easy change. So the change has been made already. Enjoy...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 12 July 2017, 15:51:15
Because all the data was already in the UI and I just had to display it, it was a very easy change. So the change has been made already. Enjoy...Amazing. I will enjoy it for sure.
Post by: Loffeno on Thu, 13 July 2017, 00:08:31
If this is of interest to people, I could make this information visible in the UI.
Because all the data was already in the UI and I just had to display it, it was a very easy change. So the change has been made already. Enjoy...
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for the quick turn around!
Post by: Jmneuv on Thu, 13 July 2017, 02:52:33
Tested your key unit size feature - but unfortunately it doesn't solve the mystery. Using 19.00mm does get the f-row almost precisely matched, however the rest of the keys wander out of alignment towards the edges.
It seems to be specific to the phantom design.. I found an old groupbuy thread on DT where people discuss this variation of the phantom. Same with the nav/arrow-block - it's off about 0.5mm to the right also.
https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/ansi-iso-jd40-styled-plate-case-t11302-270.html
The phantom pcb from my understanding was designed to fit the Filco TKL. The plate seems to not match korean PCBs.
I could confirm with my calipers, that indeed the phantom pcb has special distances of the function row (about 0.6mm less) and nav block (about 0.3mm more); the rest is in 19.05mm design
The spacebar cutout I posted is 3 variants of 6.25:
standard center stem; standard off-center stem; oem narrow stabiliser center stem;
[attachimg=1]
edit: attached is a .dxf with my desired phantom layout straight from the builder overlaid with the same design manually adjusted to match the original cad file; (manually made the triple-625 spacebar cutout)
Post by: yuppie on Thu, 13 July 2017, 22:58:29
Post by: swill on Fri, 14 July 2017, 05:21:04
Is lasergist still accepting orders to make plates?They should be. Are you having problems with the integration?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Fri, 14 July 2017, 06:31:16
Is lasergist still accepting orders to make plates?
I just did some testing and it looks like everything is working. Did you have problems or were you just checking?
On the 8th and 10th, I did get notifications of two potential orders having the problem of:
Code: [Select]
2017/07/10 03:22:24 Error building 'quote' request for lasergist: EOF
2017/07/10 03:42:09 Error building 'order' request for lasergist: EOF
Their service has been relatively stable, but every once in a while I get a couple notifications that the API didn't send me back what I was expecting.
I will keep an eye on it. Please let me know if you have any issues. Thanks...
Post by: GenAce2010 on Mon, 17 July 2017, 08:58:03
I am currently in the process of designing a new keyboard and I am uncertain as to what a "common" or "standard" mounting hole diameter, edge with, or edge padding might be. Does anyone have any suggestions for those items?
The keyboard I am designing is based off of a standard 104 key but 7 additional keys are added. Please see: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz60uCOtrTSBWHlCMmFBaXF5ZkU
Thank you in advance.
P.S Also do you know any design services that could create a PCB for this design?
Post by: swill on Mon, 17 July 2017, 09:12:50
Reviewing your layout. I would probably be a bit concerned with the spacebar stabilizer. I am not sure how well the stabilizer will 'clip' in if a switch cutout is on top of it. I am not entirely sure if the switch cutout will be on top of the stabilizer cutout, but my guess is that it will be judging from the visual look of the board. Post a link to the KLE layout once you have it built with all the different key layouts on it and I will review to see if I have concerns with the viability of the resulting plate.
Cheers...
Hello all,
I am currently in the process of designing a new keyboard and I am uncertain as to what a "common" or "standard" mounting hole diameter, edge with, or edge padding might be. Does anyone have any suggestions for those items?
The keyboard I am designing is based off of a standard 104 key but 7 additional keys are added. Please see: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz60uCOtrTSBWHlCMmFBaXF5ZkU
Thank you in advance.
P.S Also do you know any design services that could create a PCB for this design?
Post by: GenAce2010 on Mon, 17 July 2017, 09:32:14
Thank you for the reply. Here is my KLE link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/e3cc57f09c69257bf8e97540d501f9a8 and here is my proposed switch layer (attachment)... Please forgive me... I'm new to all of this since I just started doing my research yesterday.
Regards,
Gen
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 17 July 2017, 10:01:17
do you know any design services that could create a PCB for this design?Having such a large PCB designed and then made is gonna cost you money. Since you're using a standard 104 ANSI keyboard, I would say it's best to have the plate made, take a keyboard apart, install all the 104 switches on the plate, then solder the PCB back in, and hand wire the remaining keys to a breakout board. You would need two usb connections to your computer, but what would surely save you a lot of money.
Post by: swill on Mon, 17 July 2017, 10:44:30
Swill,Ahhh. I see. Sorry, I am so used to looking at keycap layouts I thought you were allowing for 3 different key layouts for the spacebar area, not adding those as additional keys to the board.
Thank you for the reply. Here is my KLE link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/e3cc57f09c69257bf8e97540d501f9a8 and here is my proposed switch layer (attachment)... Please forgive me... I'm new to all of this since I just started doing my research yesterday.
Regards,
Gen
You will be fine with that. Sorry, I misunderstood your intentions.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: pabile on Wed, 19 July 2017, 08:17:55
i plan to use your builder for a custom alps build. i noticed there are stabilizers on caps less than 2u. are these necessary? i have not seen -2u keycaps with stabilizers in it and i think the plates will look cleaner if these were removed. awesome tool either way.
Post by: swill on Wed, 19 July 2017, 08:33:48
hi swill!For MX there is no stabs on keys less than 2u, however there are stabs which can be used for less than 2u keys in Alps.
i plan to use your builder for a custom alps build. i noticed there are stabilizers on caps less than 2u. are these necessary? i have not seen -2u keycaps with stabilizers in it and i think the plates will look cleaner if these were removed. awesome tool either way.
If you don't want stabs on those keys, you can remove the stab on that key specifically. Eg: {_s:0},"target key"
Here are the associated docs for those features: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout
Let me know if that is not clear.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: pabile on Wed, 19 July 2017, 09:06:44
If you don't want stabs on those keys, you can remove the stab on that key specifically. Eg: {_s:0},"target key"
oh! cool! just tried it and it's awesome!
Post by: swill on Wed, 19 July 2017, 10:22:18
Now that I have seen how people use the tool, I have improved the usability a bit. Now all of the circle, rectangle and rounded rectangle have a new relative to field. If nothing is entered in the relative to the shape will not be drawn unless the shape is associated with a key in the Plate Layout section. In addition, if you specify more than one point in the relative to field, the shape(s) defined by the centers will be repeated relative to each of the relative to points.
These changes makes your use case easier because you can just use the rectangle with the centers set to where you would like the stabilizers relative to the center of the switchs. Then don't define anything relative to points and only apply the cutouts to the actual keys in the Plate Layout section.
I have added some additional detail to the appropriate sections of the documentation: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons
Please let me know if anything is not clear. I think this is a huge improvement to the Custom Polygons feature, but I would love your feedback.
Hi Swill,
I finally got around to using the custom-polygons-as-Alps-stabs thing, and I'm seeing some weird behaviour.
I'm getting an extra cluster of my four custom polygons in the center of the plate, in addition to the groups centered on specific switches.
(Attachment Link)
Any idea what's going on?
Layout JSONMore["Esc",{x:0.25},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.25},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.25},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"Delete"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75,_s:0},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25,_c:"0,1,2,3",_s:0},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75,_c:"0,1,4,5",_s:0},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25,_s:3},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
PolygonsMore0
[-14.333,3.4];[-11.667,3.4];[-11.667,8.6];[-14.333,8.6];[-14.333,3.4]
1
[14.333,3.4];[11.667,3.4];[11.667,8.6];[14.333,8.6];[14.333,3.4]
2
[11.1,4.9];[8.434,4.9];[8.434,10.1];[11.1,10.1];[11.1,4.9]
3
[-11.1,4.9];[-8.434,4.9];[-8.434,10.1];[-11.1,10.1];[-11.1,4.9]
4
[-22.8,4.9];[-20.134,4.9];[-20.134,10.1];[-22.8,10.1];[-22.8,4.9]
5
[22.8,4.9];[20.134,4.9];[20.134,10.1];[22.8,10.1];[22.8,4.9]
Post by: lawless on Wed, 19 July 2017, 13:39:58
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Wed, 19 July 2017, 13:46:31
Just wanted to say thanks for the hard work, swill. Just got my first attempt at a plate from the laser cutting service. Probably going to take me a couple more implementations to get it the way I want it (I'm just learning CAD software). But couldn't have done it without your plate and case builder.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: swill on Wed, 26 July 2017, 08:42:19
I have been doing a bunch of small updates over the last week. Please let me know if you find any regressions or if you know of any bugs which I have not addressed yet.
- Fixed custom polygons so the shapes are not duplicated at the center of the plate and added more flexibility in the feature.
- Made the Plate Layout code editor work on a mobile device (not that people use it, but I demo that every once in a while and it was pissing me off).
- Improved error reporting back to the UI so you should have a better idea why an error occurred when they happen.
- Fixed a few flow and operational bugs when input errors occur.
As always, please let me know if you have any requests or if any feature does not work the way you expect or would like it to work. I am doing a round of clean up before I get into any major feature development again so now is a good time to ask if you have any requests.
Thanks for all the support. Cheers...
Post by: _nowai on Wed, 26 July 2017, 09:01:45
I ran into one problem with the bottom plate of the sandwich case.
I ordered a top and a bottom plate from lasergist using your tool and set custom polygons as screw-holes somewhere between the keys. Unfortunately the good side of the bottom plate is now on the inside of the keyboard, and since the holes are not perfectly symmetrical, I can't just flip the plate.
It would be great, if you could either make people aware of this or just flip the bottom plate.
Keep up your good work, I'd be lost without your kb builder! :)
Cheers!
Post by: swill on Wed, 26 July 2017, 10:40:03
I think that is something we can do.
hi swill,
I ran into one problem with the bottom plate of the sandwich case.
I ordered a top and a bottom plate from lasergist using your tool and set custom polygons as screw-holes somewhere between the keys. Unfortunately the good side of the bottom plate is now on the inside of the keyboard, and since the holes are not perfectly symmetrical, I can't just flip the plate.
It would be great, if you could either make people aware of this or just flip the bottom plate.
Keep up your good work, I'd be lost without your kb builder! :)
Cheers!
Post by: _nowai on Wed, 26 July 2017, 11:46:28
Right, so it would be ideal for the bottom plate to be flipped so the finished side is on the bottom?
I think that is something we can do.
Exactly! :)
Post by: robotsokk on Wed, 26 July 2017, 22:22:30
For the builder, what's technically the smallest line weight that can be used? I checked the docs (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-weight) and saw the default weight mentioned, but not the minimum. When I tried a really small/hairline value (0.001 mm) it the builder didn't complain, but checking out the output and zooming in a bunch -- it doesn't look like it went through.
Thanks in advance, and it's really awesome (and such a time saver) to have this tool!
Post by: swill on Wed, 26 July 2017, 22:52:00
Hope that makes sense. Let me know if that does not answer your question. Cheers...
Edit: Also, if you zoomed in in the browser on the builder, it will not zoom the drawing. Download the SVG, then open it in Chrome and zoom in to 500% and you will start to see the lines at 0.001mm.
Hey Swill,
For the builder, what's technically the smallest line weight that can be used? I checked the docs (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-weight) and saw the default weight mentioned, but not the minimum. When I tried a really small/hairline value (0.001 mm) it the builder didn't complain, but checking out the output and zooming in a bunch -- it doesn't look like it went through.
Thanks in advance, and it's really awesome (and such a time saver) to have this tool!
Post by: robotsokk on Wed, 26 July 2017, 23:39:59
Post by: Jmneuv on Sun, 30 July 2017, 11:00:48
The design is a mix of ISO, ansi l-shift, pure split r-shift, extra F-key and full nav cluster for a total of umm 94 keys.
I took the original phantom iso cad file which can be found in the wiki and gh-repository and overlaid it with a KLE + the builder tool version. Moved the F-row and Nav-cluster to the proper position in Librecad, drew a new 'combined 6.25 spacebar' cutout and used the builder tool shapes for the cutouts and stabilisers.
Thanks very much again.
[attach=1]
Post by: PCG on Sun, 06 August 2017, 15:13:47
Brief Summary
1. Created layout in http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/
["Esc","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","Back<br>Space"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{w:1.5},"Enter"],
["Shift","Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n.","Shift","Fn"],
["Super","Meta","Super",{w:1.25},"Super",{f:1.75,w:1.75},"Super",{w:1.75},"Super",{f:3,w:1.25},"Super","Meta","Super","Meta"]
2. Generated plate and sandwich parts from http://builder.swillkb.com/
(http://i.imgur.com/Qt5VY9u.png)
3. Had my plates cut at a service provider (The laser cuts 1:1 the measurements of the file)
(http://i.imgur.com/OvJFrVy.png)
4. Plate looks great but it came out slightly overly scaled, the switches aren't snug at all, they fall out directly (about 0.1mm ish off-set per 1u)
Observation
The layout has exactly the same size as the AMJ40 (in layout editor) but physically in real life - it ended up being 8mm wider in total when comparing.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZcLyqtb.png)
- My guess is I messed up somewhere in the builder, is there some sort of scaling I need to accomodate for?
More
(http://i.imgur.com/L0GMQgM.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/epDdXKH.png)
- Comparing the svg file, it seems as if they are a 100% match, the only thing that has me confused is that the schematic is 225cm and the physical one is 235cm
(http://i.imgur.com/epDdXKH.png)
- Physical plate overlaying digital version on monitor at (100% size)
- Svg file matches the physical plate (100%)
- Essentially this leads me to believe there's nothing wrong with the lasercutting service I used (since the svg file and physical product is 100% match
(http://i.imgur.com/neiqRuz.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/wWebwoB.png)
1u slots (misalignment)
- Here I compare it to a pre-made plate with the correct measurements for cherry switches
More
(http://i.imgur.com/IihqIlm.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/H8NAKeJ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/p9d5az9.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Epl8naV.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/H8NAKeJ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/p9d5az9.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Epl8naV.png)
Appreciate any help anyone can offer! Will try and figure out what wrong on my own, but I'm kind of confused atm. :)
Post by: swill on Mon, 07 August 2017, 07:20:49
I suspect the plate is longer than you were expecting because you have added something like 5mm of padding on the sides for the mount holes, which are not present in the layout which you took the measurement from (based on the numbers you provided and the layout posted without the holes). BTW, you can't assume the size on a monitor is the correct actual size due to the resolution not matching the real world. When I do digital art for printing, I want to see what it would look like at 100%, I actually have to scale up my drawing with two predefined points which I can measure to get the size on screen to match the length I measure on a ruler, so be aware of that...
I am pretty confident the builder is right. I suspect kerf is the problem for why the keys are not fitting. If you have a caliper, you could measure and test that. Sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for.
Hi guys, I'm hoping to get some help here to see if anyone might know what is the issue.
Brief Summary
1. Created layout in http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/
["Esc","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","Back<br>Space"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",{w:1.5},"Enter"],
["Shift","Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n.","Shift","Fn"],
["Super","Meta","Super",{w:1.25},"Super",{f:1.75,w:1.75},"Super",{w:1.75},"Super",{f:3,w:1.25},"Super","Meta","Super","Meta"]
2. Generated plate and sandwich parts from http://builder.swillkb.com/Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Qt5VY9u.png)
3. Had my plates cut at a service provider (The laser cuts 1:1 the measurements of the file)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/OvJFrVy.png)
4. Plate looks great but it came out slightly overly scaled, the switches aren't snug at all, they fall out directly (about 0.1mm ish off-set per 1u)
Observation
The layout has exactly the same size as the AMJ40 (in layout editor) but physically in real life - it ended up being 8mm wider in total when comparing.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZcLyqtb.png)
- My guess is I messed up somewhere in the builder, is there some sort of scaling I need to accomodate for?
MoreShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/L0GMQgM.png)
- Comparing the svg file, it seems as if they are a 100% match, the only thing that has me confused is that the schematic is 225cm and the physical one is 235cm
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/epDdXKH.png)
- Physical plate overlaying digital version on monitor at (100% size)
- Svg file matches the physical plate (100%)
- Essentially this leads me to believe there's nothing wrong with the lasercutting service I used (since the svg file and physical product is 100% match
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/neiqRuz.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/wWebwoB.png)
1u slots (misalignment)
- Here I compare it to a pre-made plate with the correct measurements for cherry switches
MoreShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/IihqIlm.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/H8NAKeJ.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/p9d5az9.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Epl8naV.png)
Appreciate any help anyone can offer! Will try and figure out what wrong on my own, but I'm kind of confused atm. :)
Post by: PCG on Mon, 07 August 2017, 07:24:00
Don't sweat it about it being too big (I got a free sample, the first time around), I'm just looking to understand what went wrong so when I go and order the next time I can get it right. :)
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 09 August 2017, 03:43:38
I believe it's not intended.
The image should give a better picture.
[attach=1]
Post by: swill on Wed, 09 August 2017, 05:09:17
When generating a sandwich case with a stepped key, the builder adds a rectangle where the stepped portion of the key is.
I believe it's not intended.
The image should give a better picture.
(Attachment Link)
I'm a bit confused by this one. Can you send me the details of what you used as input? Thanks.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 09 August 2017, 05:45:02
Post by: swill on Wed, 09 August 2017, 06:02:54
Something like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_w:1.25&w2:1.75&l:true%3B&=Caps%20Lock&_x:0.5%3B&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl).
I have been able to reproduce this. It is very strange, it only shows on the 'Top' layer. I will try to figure out where that could be coming from. Thanks for the report...
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 09 August 2017, 06:07:27
I have been able to reproduce this. It is very strange, it only shows on the 'Top' layer. I will try to figure out where that could be coming from. Thanks for the report...My humble guess is that the stepped key is actually counted as 1u and the builders fills the gap with material. Surely you would know better.
Keep up the beautiful work.
Post by: swill on Wed, 09 August 2017, 06:19:18
Something like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_w:1.25&w2:1.75&l:true%3B&=Caps%20Lock&_x:0.5%3B&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl).
I have been able to reproduce this. It is very strange, it only shows on the 'Top' layer. I will try to figure out where that could be coming from. Thanks for the report...
Ahhhh, I know what is going on. The 'Top' layer is basically the same as the 'Bottom' plate, but with the bounds of the keys cut out. I do it this way so I can handle a top plate of irregular layouts (like ergodox). The problem is that the builder basically sees the stepped CapsLock as a {w:1.25} key and the next key has {x:0.5}, so the builder effectively sees a 1/2 key space at that location (any 'x' value in the layout will produce this I think). I will have to think about how to fix this. Thanks...
Post by: swill on Wed, 09 August 2017, 19:32:44
So I have found the issue and I know where the problem comes from. It is also a problem for the ISO Enter and Big Ass Enter keys as well. The solution has been a bit tricky in crafting, but I think I am on the right path. I have spent an hour or so trying to solve it this evening while on my commute, but I have not solved it yet. Just need to figure out the right logic to make the solution work across all possible types of scenarios. I should be able to find a solution for this one later tonight after I get the lil guy to bed or tomorrow on the train to the office.Something like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_w:1.25&w2:1.75&l:true%3B&=Caps%20Lock&_x:0.5%3B&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl).
I have been able to reproduce this. It is very strange, it only shows on the 'Top' layer. I will try to figure out where that could be coming from. Thanks for the report...
Ahhhh, I know what is going on. The 'Top' layer is basically the same as the 'Bottom' plate, but with the bounds of the keys cut out. I do it this way so I can handle a top plate of irregular layouts (like ergodox). The problem is that the builder basically sees the stepped CapsLock as a {w:1.25} key and the next key has {x:0.5}, so the builder effectively sees a 1/2 key space at that location (any 'x' value in the layout will produce this I think). I will have to think about how to fix this. Thanks...
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Wed, 09 August 2017, 20:18:06
Alright, my son was taking forever in the bath and I had a pretty good idea how to fix it, so I just worked on it while he played. I have fixed the problem where keys with both a 'w' and 'w2' incorrectly only accounting for the 'w' value and not the 'w2' value when determining what the keycap bounds were to cut out of the top layer. This problem was reported by @TalkingTree for the Stepped Capslock, but the problem also existed for the ISO Enter and the Big Ass Enter keys because they used the same mechanism. The solution I have implemented solves all of the known cases. If there are other cases which you know about (especially for layouts where keys are absolutely positioned or rotated), please let me know so I can validate the fix is working in those cases as well. It should be, but if I have something to test I can validate.
Thanks for the support @TalkingTree in reporting this issue. Cheers...
Post by: TalkingTree on Thu, 10 August 2017, 01:19:44
Post by: swill on Thu, 10 August 2017, 09:20:56
I have added a new Custom Polygon shape to the builder. I have added support for a Superellipse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superellipse) (n=1/2), and no, you are not the only person who has to look up what that actually means. Here is the documentation (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons) which has some additional detail for this feature. While very limited, it shows the shape and it is pretty easy to understand how to use it.
The reason for adding this shape is to support custom rounded corners on both concave or convex 90º corners. The superellipse was the main shape I felt was missing for being able to have full control of the customization functionality with custom polygons.
I hope this is useful for you guys. Cheers...
Post by: swill on Thu, 24 August 2017, 20:44:17
KAD (Keyboard Automated Design), the core engine which I built to power the builder is now officially open source. KAD is a Golang library which I have extracted out of the builder as its own package so I could make it openly available to the keyboard community. It doesn't give you anything that the builder doesn't already do, but if you have a feature request, now you can just get into the code to build it if you want.
The code is not beautiful or well commented yet, but I have tried to at least organize it in a way that makes it relatively easy to understand. I will need to go through and add a whole bunch of comments so the documentation is much clearer, but in the meantime, if you have question just let me know.
The source code and the basic usage can be found at github.com/swill/kad (https://github.com/swill/kad), and the godoc can be found at godoc.org/github.com/swill/kad (https://godoc.org/github.com/swill/kad).
If you have any questions, let me know. Also, if you are already a Golang developer, you may notice that my style is a little different, so if you contribute, please try to be consistent with the style in the rest of the package.
Enjoy...
Post by: cribbit on Fri, 25 August 2017, 15:59:49
Post by: robotsokk on Sun, 27 August 2017, 12:39:35
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 27 August 2017, 13:04:16
Post by: TalkingTree on Thu, 28 December 2017, 07:28:46
I noticed something funny with the builder.
When making a sandwich case, the left vertical line in the largest cutout in the top layer (see the red line in the attached picture) is actually split into four different lines, presumably one for each row.
[attach=1]
By looking at the SVG code, you can see how it happens.
Quote
<polygon points="14.998,60.074 14.998,79.125 14.999,79.125 14.999,98.173 14.998,98.173 14.998,117.225 14.999,117.225 14.999,155.326 300.751,155.326 300.751,60.074" style="fill:none;stroke-width:0.050000mm;stroke:red"/>
I noticed that while importing either the DXF and SVG into a 3d modeling software and I assume it happens with the EPS as well.
It's a very minor thing but, nonetheless, you might wanna fix it.
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 19 February 2018, 01:26:35
I'm very interested yet can't risk it as I'm unsure how it will look from the sides
Post by: RobotDeathSquad on Thu, 08 March 2018, 14:40:52
Keyboard-Layout-Editor renders it like this:
https://d.pr/i/cgsVig
However, plate and case builder is rendering that section like this:
https://d.pr/i/RUgepq
Anyone have thoughts on how to figure out why? I have already rebuilt this layout by hand (hand coded the raw data) because it was a total mess when I just inserted keys and moved them around.
Post by: TalkingTree on Thu, 08 March 2018, 14:50:53
Can you post your code?
Post by: swill on Thu, 08 March 2018, 16:47:46
Anyone have recommendations for how to debug why a layout isn't rendering properly? I'm working on a rather complex one, and I'm having trouble with the rendering.
Keyboard-Layout-Editor renders it like this:
https://d.pr/i/cgsVig
However, plate and case builder is rendering that section like this:
https://d.pr/i/RUgepq
Anyone have thoughts on how to figure out why? I have already rebuilt this layout by hand (hand coded the raw data) because it was a total mess when I just inserted keys and moved them around.
Post your code and I will try to help you figure it out...
Post by: RobotDeathSquad on Thu, 08 March 2018, 17:16:48
Code: [Select]
[{r:10,rx:1}, "ESC", "~\n`", "1", "2", "3", "4", "5"],
[{w:1.5, x:0.5}, "TAB",{w:1}, "Q", "W", "E", "R", "T"],
[{w:1.5, x:0.5}, "CMD",{w:1}, "A", "S", "D", "F", "G"],
[{w:1,x:6.9,y:0.2, r:0}, "-"],
[{r:10, y:-1.2, w:1.5, x:0.5}, "SHIFT",{w:1}, "Z", "X", "C", "V", "B"],
[{w:2,x:6.4,y:0.15, r:0}, "BACK\nSPACE"],
[{r:10, y:-1.15},"CTL","ALT","\n", "\n","SUPER", {w:2}, "\n"],
[{r:0, w:2, x:6.4, y:0.15}, "ENTER"],
[{r:-10, x:7.6, y:-3.6}, "6", "7", "8", "9", "0", "=", "DEL"],
[{x:7.6},"y", "u", "i", "o", "p", "'", "\\"],
[{x:7.6},"h", "j", "k", "l", ";", {w:1.5}, "COMMAND"],
[{x:7.6},"N", "M", ",", ".", "/", {w:1.5}, "SHIFT"],
[{w:2,x:7.6}, "\n", {w:1}, "LEFT", "UP", "DOWN", "RIGHT", "ALT"],
Post by: TalkingTree on Thu, 08 March 2018, 17:36:15
Code: [Select]
[{rx:1,y:3.2,x:6.9,a:7},""],
[{y:-0.05,x:6.4,w:2},""],
[{x:6.4,w:2},""],
[{r:10,y:-6.15},"","","","","","",""],
[{x:0.5,w:1.5},"","","","","",""],
[{x:0.5,w:1.5},"","","","","",""],
[{x:0.5,w:1.5},"","","","","",""],
["","","","","",{w:2},""],
[{r:-10,y:-2.45,x:7.6},"","","","","","",""],
[{x:7.6},"","","","","","",""],
[{x:7.6},"","","","","",{w:1.5},""],
[{x:7.6},"","","","","",{w:1.5},""],
[{x:7.6,w:2},"","","","","",""]
Post by: RobotDeathSquad on Fri, 09 March 2018, 22:59:46
Post by: TalkingTree on Sat, 10 March 2018, 03:02:54
Is that necessary on every plate or was it just something in mine that was meeting things up?It's something in your KLE for sure but I was too lazy to inspect and I chose the easiest route.
Post by: swill on Sun, 11 March 2018, 16:41:55
+1 to that. It is the easiest way to troubleshoot issues.Is that necessary on every plate or was it just something in mine that was meeting things up?It's something in your KLE for sure but I was too lazy to inspect and I chose the easiest route.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: TalkingTree on Thu, 29 March 2018, 16:28:53
Is there a way to do that automatically or shall I necessarily add the custom cutouts myself?
TIA.
Post by: swill on Thu, 29 March 2018, 17:23:40
I'd like to make a custom plate for a ALPS set that I own which includes a big ass enter with double stabilizers, like so (https://deskthority.net/w/images/c/c5/KB-6252EA-White-3.jpg).
Is there a way to do that automatically or shall I necessarily add the custom cutouts myself?
TIA.
I believe this is what you are looking for. Here is an example of a 60% keyboard with a "big ass enter". KLE has a 104 version of this layout as well.
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","|\n\\","Back Space"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5,h:2,w2:2.25,h2:1,x2:-0.75,y2:1},"Enter"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
The Enter key specifically is:
Code: [Select]
{w:1.5,h:2,w2:2.25,h2:1,x2:-0.75,y2:1},"Enter"However, that said, I only had one example of the key and stabilizer layout when I created the key and stabilizer placement for this key, so I have not handled it according to the cutouts shown in your picture. I am not positive that the 'big ass enter' that I was working from is the same as the one you have shown.
I think you will have to create the space manually with the layout and then use custom polygons to create that actual cutout. Sorry, in looking into this, I don't think there is an easy way to support this with the tooling as it is currently built. :(
Post by: kgolden on Thu, 29 March 2018, 20:03:04
1- select default 60 percent layout on KLE
2- copy "raw data" to plate layout section on swillkb plate builder
3- select case type "poker 60percent"
4- choose "draw my CAD"
5- Choose "order from lasergist"
Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?
Post by: TalkingTree on Fri, 30 March 2018, 03:25:34
I think you will have to create the space manually with the layout and then use custom polygons to create that actual cutout. Sorry, in looking into this, I don't think there is an easy way to support this with the tooling as it is currently built. :(That's fine. I'll make my own custom cutouts, I was just wondering if there was a pre-made one.
On a related note, would you consider adding pre-made shapes to move around as custom polygon? Namely the Cherry stabilizer and the Costar controller.
Thanks for everything you're doing.
Post by: TalkingTree on Fri, 30 March 2018, 03:28:23
Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?Not sure if lasergist works anymore, anyway you're correct on everything. One thing you might wanna change though is the line weight to 0.01mm as some factory require that.
Post by: kgolden on Fri, 30 March 2018, 06:31:56
Post by: swill on Fri, 30 March 2018, 08:40:54
Has this been qualified by anyone? From my side everything seems normal and people have been able to buy cases. No one has complained to me that they did not get their case.Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?Not sure if lasergist works anymore, anyway you're correct on everything. One thing you might wanna change though is the line weight to 0.01mm as some factory require that.
Are there any validated examples of the lasergist service not coming through for people?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: TalkingTree on Fri, 30 March 2018, 10:15:00
Are there any validated examples of the lasergist service not coming through for people?Frankly, just rumors but I've read it quite a few times.
Post by: noSatellite on Fri, 30 March 2018, 11:42:34
Are there any validated examples of the lasergist service not coming through for people?Frankly, just rumors but I've read it quite a few times.
Same for me - I have only seen rumors.
Post by: kgolden on Fri, 30 March 2018, 12:01:25
Post by: swill on Fri, 30 March 2018, 12:28:57
Ya. I saw something on Reddit once and that seems to have started some rumors, but I have not seen anything tangible yet.Are there any validated examples of the lasergist service not coming through for people?Frankly, just rumors but I've read it quite a few times.
PLEASE, if you do actually have problems with them, let me know. I will take it up personally with them if I am actually given an order number that is not delivered.
I want this service to be useful, so if it is not, I should find a different supplier.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: skullydazed on Sat, 07 April 2018, 21:39:52
Ya. I saw something on Reddit once and that seems to have started some rumors, but I have not seen anything tangible yet.
PLEASE, if you do actually have problems with them, let me know. I will take it up personally with them if I am actually given an order number that is not delivered.
I want this service to be useful, so if it is not, I should find a different supplier.
The story I've been able to piece together is that for about the last year or so they're filling orders, but if anything goes wrong you won't hear anything from them. Basically, either it works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't your only recourse is to file a paypal dispute.
Here is an example from one month ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/81297a/stuck_order_at_lasergist_anyone_else_having/
Here is another from two months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7rj2zu/lasergist_still_completely_unresponsive/
Five months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7ajaqu/lasergist_unresponsive_on_contact_to_place_order/
Six: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/73ub8z/r_lasergist_no_longer_active_but_website_still/
This meshes with my own experience, which is that last April I was in talks with them to setup a drop-shipping deal, and after a bunch of back and forth and then them telling me they were ready with a bunch of backend changes and would send me a bunch of info soon they just... disappeared. Several follow-up emails were ignored, I still don't know what happened.
A few weeks ago they sent out that email that a bunch of people posted about, so perhaps they are trying to turn it around now. However, it will take some time before they've gained back mine and a lot of other people's trust.
Post by: Pwner on Sat, 07 April 2018, 22:11:33
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8afdtk/the_rumors_of_lasergists_death_have_been_greatly/
Post by: kgolden on Wed, 11 April 2018, 06:48:22
Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?Not sure if lasergist works anymore, anyway you're correct on everything. One thing you might wanna change though is the line weight to 0.01mm as some factory require that.
So how do you know if you need to change the line weight? Will the shop not cut the plate or how does that work?
Post by: TalkingTree on Wed, 11 April 2018, 06:57:59
So how do you know if you need to change the line weight? Will the shop not cut the plate or how does that work?Either they tell you or you just ask them what they prefer.
Post by: swill on Wed, 11 April 2018, 06:58:01
If you are not using lasergist, then you should contact the shot to ask how they want the drawing. For the lasergist integration you don't have to worry about line weight.Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?Not sure if lasergist works anymore, anyway you're correct on everything. One thing you might wanna change though is the line weight to 0.01mm as some factory require that.
So how do you know if you need to change the line weight? Will the shop not cut the plate or how does that work?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: kgolden on Wed, 11 April 2018, 07:16:29
If you are not using lasergist, then you should contact the shot to ask how they want the drawing. For the lasergist integration you don't have to worry about line weight.Is this all I need to do to have a plate made that would work with a GH60 and a 60% case in a Poker layout?Not sure if lasergist works anymore, anyway you're correct on everything. One thing you might wanna change though is the line weight to 0.01mm as some factory require that.
So how do you know if you need to change the line weight? Will the shop not cut the plate or how does that work?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Oh excellent, I plan to use lasergist. Thanks so much!
Post by: RealLaugh on Sat, 21 April 2018, 07:01:11
Just out of pure curiosity, can someone tell my why the plate builder doesn't like this layout from KLE?
Code: [Select]
["1","2","3"],
["4","5","6"],it spits out this error:
Code: [Select]
Parse error on line 2:
..."3"],["4","5","6"],]
----------------------^
Expecting 'STRING', 'NUMBER', 'NULL', 'TRUE', 'FALSE', '{', '[', got ']'
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 April 2018, 09:24:17
Edit - please ignore, it didn't like the comma at the end of the 2nd line. My bad!Ya. I should probably trim commas from the end(s) of the whole block before it attempts to parse so this gets fixed automatically and no error would be thrown.
Just out of pure curiosity, can someone tell my why the plate builder doesn't like this layout from KLE?Code: [Select]["1","2","3"],
["4","5","6"],
it spits out this error:Code: [Select]Parse error on line 2:
..."3"],["4","5","6"],]
----------------------^
Expecting 'STRING', 'NUMBER', 'NULL', 'TRUE', 'FALSE', '{', '[', got ']'
Post by: TalkingTree on Sat, 21 April 2018, 09:28:11
Ya. I should probably trim commas from the end(s) of the whole blockSemicolons too please. Custom polygons won't accept them at the end of a string.
Post by: swill on Sat, 21 April 2018, 09:29:58
Ok. I can do that too. Thanks for the heads up.Ya. I should probably trim commas from the end(s) of the whole blockSemicolons too please. Custom polygons won't accept them at the end of a string.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: RealLaugh on Sun, 22 April 2018, 05:08:15
once I have it setup, how do I run it?
when I run
Code: [Select]
go get github.com/swill/kadI get
Code: [Select]
go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:435:9: canvas.FloatDecimals undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method FloatDecimals)
go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:436:9: canvas.StartviewUnitF undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method StartviewUnitF)
go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:444:12: canvas.PolygonF undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method PolygonF)and if I try to run
Code: [Select]
go run kad.gothen I get
Code: [Select]
go run: cannot run non-main packagemaybe I should go back to playing console
Post by: swill on Tue, 24 April 2018, 07:16:48
The problem is likely due to the fact that my fork of the SVGO library is not in a great state. I wrote it expecting to merge it upstream, but in discussions around a couple potential implementation options, the upstream and my fork diverged and I have not gone back and updated my code to match the resulting upstream version now that they support floats.
You will likely need to do the following to get it working (assuming you are on linux or mac):
Code: [Select]
$ mkdir -p $GOPATH/src/github.com/swill/
$ cd $GOPATH/src/github.com/swill/
$ git clone https://github.com/swill/svgo
$ cd svgo
$ git checkout float
$ go install
The reason you need to follow these instructions is because the branch of my fork of SVGO which the library uses is actually float, so we have to setup the dependency to actually reference that branch.
Let me know if that gets you sorted.
Cheers and thank you for reporting this. I will have to fix this going forward...
a stupid question about the goland KAD build.
once I have it setup, how do I run it?
when I runCode: [Select]go get github.com/swill/kad
I getCode: [Select]go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:435:9: canvas.FloatDecimals undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method FloatDecimals)
go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:436:9: canvas.StartviewUnitF undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method StartviewUnitF)
go\src\github.com\swill\kad\kad.go:444:12: canvas.PolygonF undefined (type *svg.SVG has no field or method PolygonF)
and if I try to runCode: [Select]go run kad.go
then I getCode: [Select]go run: cannot run non-main package
maybe I should go back to playing console
Post by: Ampersandrew on Mon, 30 April 2018, 10:41:29
I've just found your really useful plate CAD tool. Thanks for making and sharing it.
I can't seem to get stabilizers added to keys that are not an exact multiple of 1u. 2u & 3u work, 2.5 & 3.5 don't. Is there something I need to do, or is this possibly a bug?
Post by: swill on Mon, 30 April 2018, 11:07:34
HiI don't know what stabilizer the key would have on non-standard keys, so I can't make any assumptions on that. If you have key caps with stabilizers which are not handled by my tool, please send me the size and the spacing from center to center of the stabilizers. Currently only stabilizers with centered switches is supported (other than one specific space bar).
I've just found your really useful plate CAD tool. Thanks for making and sharing it.
I can't seem to get stabilizers added to keys that are not an exact multiple of 1u. 2u & 3u work, 2.5 & 3.5 don't. Is there something I need to do, or is this possibly a bug?
Does that help?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: eosph on Fri, 04 May 2018, 03:17:52
I'm trying to create a layout using the following:
Code: [Select]
[{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12","►/ | |"],
["^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace","Del\nInsert"],
[{x:0.5},"Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter","PgUp\nHome"],
[{x:0.75},"H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#",{x:1.25},"PgDn\nEnd"],
[{x:1.25},"N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift","Fn"],
[{x:1.5,a:7,w:2},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win","←","↓","→","↑"]
The output generates a large unused section on the right, I've tried manually altering the KLE output to see if I can remove it but no luck.
(https://i.imgur.com/zavLzDH.png)
Would appreciate any help possible.
Post by: Atredl on Fri, 04 May 2018, 06:02:38
Hey,Have you tried removing the legends from the code? I’ve seen that work before.
I'm trying to create a layout using the following:Code: [Select][{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12","►/ | |"],
["^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace","Del\nInsert"],
[{x:0.5},"Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter","PgUp\nHome"],
[{x:0.75},"H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#",{x:1.25},"PgDn\nEnd"],
[{x:1.25},"N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift","Fn"],
[{x:1.5,a:7,w:2},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win","←","↓","→","↑"]
The output generates a large unused section on the right, I've tried manually altering the KLE output to see if I can remove it but no luck.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zavLzDH.png)
Would appreciate any help possible.
Post by: xondat on Fri, 04 May 2018, 08:38:07
Hey,
I'm trying to create a layout using the following:Code: [Select][{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12","►/ | |"],
["^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace","Del\nInsert"],
[{x:0.5},"Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter","PgUp\nHome"],
[{x:0.75},"H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#",{x:1.25},"PgDn\nEnd"],
[{x:1.25},"N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift","Fn"],
[{x:1.5,a:7,w:2},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win","←","↓","→","↑"]
The output generates a large unused section on the right, I've tried manually altering the KLE output to see if I can remove it but no luck.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zavLzDH.png)
Would appreciate any help possible.
Tried it with and without the legends, and I didn't get that result. What options were you using?
Post by: swill on Fri, 04 May 2018, 08:43:11
Hey,
I'm trying to create a layout using the following:Code: [Select][{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12","►/ | |"],
["^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace","Del\nInsert"],
[{x:0.5},"Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter","PgUp\nHome"],
[{x:0.75},"H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#",{x:1.25},"PgDn\nEnd"],
[{x:1.25},"N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift","Fn"],
[{x:1.5,a:7,w:2},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"AltGr",{w:1.25},"Win","←","↓","→","↑"]
The output generates a large unused section on the right, I've tried manually altering the KLE output to see if I can remove it but no luck.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zavLzDH.png)
Would appreciate any help possible.
Tried it with and without the legends, and I didn't get that result. What options were you using?
I am also not able to reproduce this behavior... Do you have a huge padding on one side of the sandwich case?
Post by: kgolden on Sat, 05 May 2018, 14:41:22
Post by: merlin64 on Thu, 10 May 2018, 12:03:18
Anyone have any tips on how to make a standard ansi poker layout on KLE that would fit regular 2.75u right shift along with 1.75u + 1u and have the tool cut it properly? I've tried just superimposing them on top of each other and that doesn't look very nice.
Also, I see there's an option for plate corners. I've used 2mm, is that a good value?
Post by: swill on Thu, 10 May 2018, 13:03:33
First time using this tool lol! Thank you so much swill!
Anyone have any tips on how to make a standard ansi poker layout on KLE that would fit regular 2.75u right shift along with 1.75u + 1u and have the tool cut it properly? I've tried just superimposing them on top of each other and that doesn't look very nice.
Also, I see there's an option for plate corners. I've used 2mm, is that a good value?
Yes, you can support multiple layouts with the same plate. This is the guide you are looking for: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts
Post by: merlin64 on Thu, 10 May 2018, 13:41:03
First time using this tool lol! Thank you so much swill!
Anyone have any tips on how to make a standard ansi poker layout on KLE that would fit regular 2.75u right shift along with 1.75u + 1u and have the tool cut it properly? I've tried just superimposing them on top of each other and that doesn't look very nice.
Also, I see there's an option for plate corners. I've used 2mm, is that a good value?
Sweet! Thank you so much!
Yes, you can support multiple layouts with the same plate. This is the guide you are looking for: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts
Post by: merlin64 on Thu, 10 May 2018, 13:42:08
Post by: xondat on Thu, 10 May 2018, 13:53:25
Oh yeah is 2 mm a good amount for the radius?
yes
Post by: Koren on Tue, 15 May 2018, 04:15:04
What is the minimum distance you would suggest between a hole and the border of the plate? Let's assume you do a single key column, is the default result (without "padding") sturdy enough for a plate+pcb mount?
I ask because since AcidFire's project doesn't seem really alive (it's a shame, but I can live with it, though I hope AcidFire and his family are fine), I'll probably resurrect my own Ergodox variant project.
Problem is, I consider creating independant columns. It allows to adjust the staggering (and also will be a LOT cheaper for PCB, since you can do 12 identical single sided small PCBs, which can be ordered for a much lower price than 2 large ones.)
Also, I enjoyed a bit the height variation of the Logitech Wave, and since I cannot really use special keycaps, I'd make some columns higher than others. A bit like this, though with flat colums for the plate and PCB (at least at first ;) )
http://i.imgur.com/yZKLKCe.png
The thing is, the 0.75"-wide plate seems awfully narrow once you've put the switches holes on it. Even more for 1.5mm thickness. Seeing how laser cutting is expensive, I don't want to order something just to discover I can only throw it away...
I have some leeway in that I can stack the plates and earn 1-2mm, the the keycap motion also put some practical limitation (even if in theory there's 1.6mm clearance between keycap and plate, with wobble, that would probably mean a regular collision between keycap and plate if I'm not careful).
Also, I'm curious to know that the best cost-effective metal plate cutting service available currently...
Post by: _ODIN_ on Fri, 18 May 2018, 13:28:47
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom. Hope you can help me in solving this problem.
Layout in KLE :https://imgur.com/a/k9qziHR
Raw data in KLE: https://imgur.com/a/g1n5xR4
Plate (with three shifted keys): https://imgur.com/a/z0QWeQs
Thanks in advance !
Post by: TalkingTree on Fri, 18 May 2018, 14:36:52
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom.Remove all the legends.
Post by: kgolden on Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:31:28
Post by: swill on Fri, 18 May 2018, 23:19:12
So I placed an order through the plate builder on May 4th and it arrived today, may 18th from Lasergist. Very pleased with fit and finish.
Awesome, looking good! :)
Post by: swill on Fri, 18 May 2018, 23:19:43
Hello guys
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom. Hope you can help me in solving this problem.
Layout in KLE :https://imgur.com/a/k9qziHR
Raw data in KLE: https://imgur.com/a/g1n5xR4
Plate (with three shifted keys): https://imgur.com/a/z0QWeQs
Thanks in advance !
I can't do anything to support you with images. Post the raw code and we can help you.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Sat, 19 May 2018, 05:39:42
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d98685fac714f480dd0ceb520e3abdecHello guys
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom. Hope you can help me in solving this problem.
Layout in KLE :https://imgur.com/a/k9qziHR
Raw data in KLE: https://imgur.com/a/g1n5xR4
Plate (with three shifted keys): https://imgur.com/a/z0QWeQs
Thanks in advance !
I can't do anything to support you with images. Post the raw code and we can help you.
Post by: TalkingTree on Sat, 19 May 2018, 06:20:11
Try this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_y:2&x:8.5&a:7%3B&=%3B&@_x:7.5%3B&=&=&=%3B&@_r:10&y:-4&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=&_x:5&h:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_r:-10&y:-1.5&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:16%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:16%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:10&h:1.5%3B&=&_x:5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=).http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d98685fac714f480dd0ceb520e3abdecHello guys
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom. Hope you can help me in solving this problem.
Layout in KLE :https://imgur.com/a/k9qziHR
Raw data in KLE: https://imgur.com/a/g1n5xR4
Plate (with three shifted keys): https://imgur.com/a/z0QWeQs
Thanks in advance !
I can't do anything to support you with images. Post the raw code and we can help you.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Sat, 19 May 2018, 11:37:06
thanks. Why did it work with your link?Try this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_y:2&x:8.5&a:7%3B&=%3B&@_x:7.5%3B&=&=&=%3B&@_r:10&y:-4&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.75%3B&=&_x:5&h:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.75%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:2.75%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:1.75%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_r:-10&y:-1.5&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:16%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:16%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:10&h:1.5%3B&=&_x:5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:13%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:12%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:11%3B&=&_x:3%3B&=).http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d98685fac714f480dd0ceb520e3abdecHello guys
I designed a custom keyboard layout for myself. For some reason the plate builder shifts three keys to the bottom. Hope you can help me in solving this problem.
Layout in KLE :https://imgur.com/a/k9qziHR
Raw data in KLE: https://imgur.com/a/g1n5xR4
Plate (with three shifted keys): https://imgur.com/a/z0QWeQs
Thanks in advance !
I can't do anything to support you with images. Post the raw code and we can help you.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Tue, 29 May 2018, 14:48:01
I am currently planning my own switchplate. The build will be in a wooden case with Kailh BOX Pale Blue (Clickbar) switches.
Should I go for a stainless steel or a wooden custom plate? (feel, sound, .....)
Moreover, how thick can the plate be?
Thanks in advance
Post by: TalkingTree on Tue, 29 May 2018, 15:24:18
Should I go for a stainless steel or a wooden custom plate?Personal preference, although know that a wooden plate might break.
Moreover, how thick can the plate be?Cherry MX switches are designed to snap into a 1.5mm plate, so do Kailh Box switches.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Wed, 30 May 2018, 00:53:46
thank you. Will use stainless steelShould I go for a stainless steel or a wooden custom plate?Personal preference, although know that a wooden plate might break.Moreover, how thick can the plate be?Cherry MX switches are designed to snap into a 1.5mm plate, so do Kailh Box switches.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Wed, 06 June 2018, 11:47:42
I have to make a plate in another program because I don't understand the value KLE uses to place the switches. Its a problem because I have already completed my PCB design, so I have to get the spacings between them right.
Thanks
Post by: swill on Wed, 06 June 2018, 12:06:25
do you guys know the dimensions of the alps switch cutout?
I have to make a plate in another program because I don't understand the value KLE uses to place the switches. Its a problem because I have already completed my PCB design, so I have to get the spacings between them right.
Thanks
You are not looking for the switch spacing, but instead the actual Alps cutout right? The tool supports Alps cutouts, are you missing something you are expecting?
Here are the Alps switch cutout details:
https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/master/key.go#L189
In general, the size is: 15.6 wide x 12.8 high
That answer your question?
Post by: _ODIN_ on Wed, 06 June 2018, 12:37:43
yes thanks. I don’t understand the value KLE uses in its grid (x and y coordinataions)do you guys know the dimensions of the alps switch cutout?
I have to make a plate in another program because I don't understand the value KLE uses to place the switches. Its a problem because I have already completed my PCB design, so I have to get the spacings between them right.
Thanks
You are not looking for the switch spacing, but instead the actual Alps cutout right? The tool supports Alps cutouts, are you missing something you are expecting?
Here are the Alps switch cutout details:
https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/master/key.go#L189
In general, the size is: 15.6 wide x 12.8 high
That answer your question?
Post by: merlin64 on Tue, 19 June 2018, 00:14:09
The website says
Rotate Stabilizer Cutout {_rs:<degrees>}: Example, {_rs:180},"". Rotate the stabilizer cutout independent of the switch cutout.
Set in Stabilizer Type vs Adding _rs:180
But I have no clue where to put this in my raw file.
Post by: TalkingTree on Tue, 19 June 2018, 03:44:31
Post by: merlin64 on Tue, 19 June 2018, 09:39:18
In curly brackets right before the legend (which is in quotes), separated by a comma. If you could post your KLE, I could show you exactly how to do it.
Sweet thanks, here's my bottom row
Code: [Select]
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]I want to not only flip the spacebar stabs, but also keep the default so in case I find a PCB that has the other orientation I can still keep using the same plate.
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 June 2018, 10:31:43
In curly brackets right before the legend (which is in quotes), separated by a comma. If you could post your KLE, I could show you exactly how to do it.
Sweet thanks, here's my bottom rowCode: [Select][{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
I want to not only flip the spacebar stabs, but also keep the default so in case I find a PCB that has the other orientation I can still keep using the same plate.
It is easy to flip the spacebar stabilizer with {a:7,w:6.25,_rs:180},"". While it is possible to have two different stabilizer cutouts by superimposing two keys on top of each other (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts)), I definitely would not recommend it. If you have more than one stabilizer configuration for a specific key, then neither stabilizer will click in correctly and is likely to move around. I would strongly recommend that you only have one stabilizer configuration per key.
Post by: merlin64 on Tue, 19 June 2018, 10:56:09
In curly brackets right before the legend (which is in quotes), separated by a comma. If you could post your KLE, I could show you exactly how to do it.
Sweet thanks, here's my bottom rowCode: [Select][{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
I want to not only flip the spacebar stabs, but also keep the default so in case I find a PCB that has the other orientation I can still keep using the same plate.
It is easy to flip the spacebar stabilizer with {a:7,w:6.25,_rs:180},"". While it is possible to have two different stabilizer cutouts by superimposing two keys on top of each other (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts)), I definitely would not recommend it. If you have more than one stabilizer configuration for a specific key, then neither stabilizer will click in correctly and is likely to move around. I would strongly recommend that you only have one stabilizer configuration per key.
That is a very good point. Do you think I'd have issues even with screw in stabs?
Post by: swill on Tue, 19 June 2018, 10:58:05
In curly brackets right before the legend (which is in quotes), separated by a comma. If you could post your KLE, I could show you exactly how to do it.
Sweet thanks, here's my bottom rowCode: [Select][{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
I want to not only flip the spacebar stabs, but also keep the default so in case I find a PCB that has the other orientation I can still keep using the same plate.
It is easy to flip the spacebar stabilizer with {a:7,w:6.25,_rs:180},"". While it is possible to have two different stabilizer cutouts by superimposing two keys on top of each other (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/pro-tips/#support-multiple-layouts)), I definitely would not recommend it. If you have more than one stabilizer configuration for a specific key, then neither stabilizer will click in correctly and is likely to move around. I would strongly recommend that you only have one stabilizer configuration per key.
That is a very good point. Do you think I'd have issues even with screw in stabs?
If you are using PCB mount stabilizers, you should be fine. I was thinking specifically for plate mounted stabilizers.
Post by: merlin64 on Thu, 21 June 2018, 10:12:20
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 June 2018, 12:23:22
Thank you very much!
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
I would have to look into that one. It could be that kerf is messing with my calculation on the site, but I would expect it to be consistent in terms of how the two numbers are different in both dimensions, so that doesn't seem like it would be the case.
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 June 2018, 12:28:37
Thank you very much!
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
I would have to look into that one. It could be that kerf is messing with my calculation on the site, but I would expect it to be consistent in terms of how the two numbers are different in both dimensions, so that doesn't seem like it would be the case.
Are you use custom polygons at all? Do any of them overlap the outer edge of the plate? I am wondering if I am not updating the bounds correctly (how I calculate the width and height) after the final operations (ie: cut | add) on the custom polygons. I will have to dig into this a bit. Anything special you were doing?
Post by: merlin64 on Thu, 21 June 2018, 12:52:31
1. Load 60% default on KLE
2. Copy and paste RAW into swillkb
3. Choose Pok3r
4. MX switch with cutouts and Cherry stabs ONLY
5. Change plate corner to 2 mm
6. Draw CAD and download .dxf
7. Open up dxf in latest LibreCad and save in DXF 2007 file format after verifying that units are in mm.
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 June 2018, 12:56:54
As a test this is what I did, and I got the same resultsCool. I will give it a shot to see what I can come up with. Thanks for describing the steps to reproduce.
1. Load 60% default on KLE
2. Copy and paste RAW into swillkb
3. Choose Pok3r
4. MX switch with cutouts and Cherry stabs ONLY
5. Change plate corner to 2 mm
6. Draw CAD and download .dxf
7. Open up dxf in latest LibreCad and save in DXF 2007 file format after verifying that units are in mm.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 12 July 2018, 01:04:12
Hope you don't mind me asking but how did you find shipito? Read some pretty bad reviews for them but I am aware that with any big companies, there's going to be some bad reviews. Currently I've been using viabox - mainly because their shipping fees are so cheap. But it's always good to have other options.
Sorry I missed this, yeah Shipito was pretty good, no issues, tho I got 4 wheels via them, and one of the wheels was slightly bumped during shipping, I never got the issue solved, but I blame DHL, as I've opened a claim, but their claim process is designed to lock the customer in a loop of no result, I repeatedly tried but couldn't learn the result of the claim - so small unrelated information, if you ever get something damaged in shipping, you're doomed
------
I've been looking for a new project, and I decided to make it a Swillkb+Lasergist one, it's going to be a modified 60%, can't decide whether to use a PCB or hand-wire it
I really like the new "Top Layer"ed design, on paper, any actual build photos using the design? Searched quickly but came up empty
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 12 July 2018, 03:17:28
I've been looking for a new project, and I decided to make it a Swillkb+Lasergist one, it's going to be a modified 60%, can't decide whether to use a PCB or hand-wire it
I really like the new "Top Layer"ed design, on paper, any actual build photos using the design? Searched quickly but came up empty
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180712/73499cce31d475eb61dd39671bb504cf.jpg)
Here’s one I built with top layers. They’re 1/8 inch steel plates and they come pretty close the the perfect height.
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 12 July 2018, 05:22:48
I was wondering how just 2 middle layers, 4.5mm counting the plate layer, could be enough to get all those components inside, now I see that it's intended to be used with standoffs
Probably if the middle layer sizes could be increased for Lasergist, it could work without the standoffs too
For me the ideal height is as close to the desk as possible - on the other hand - there seems to be a good collection of M3 standoffs in Aliexpress too
Edit: Wow, discovered this now: http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons - We didn't have such features and documentation back in the day :)
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 18 July 2018, 03:00:30
I was like, daaamn, how's lasergist so cheap, 5 plate pieces for $66, incredible
Turns out, when you get an on-site quote for lasergist manufacturing for a sandwich case, the default quantities for plates other than the switch layer are 0, I think they should be 1, $228 is more like it, I wouldn't want my custom to be that cheap (!) :)
------
Edit: Is there a way to easily extend a Poker 60% plate's "Edge Paddings" - Currently that option is only for Sandwich cases, but I like to add 1-2mm of extra spaces to my Poker 60% plates so they fill the cases more evenly, back in the day, used to do this manually, but I just want to order a plate from Lasergist now
Edit 2: It seems possible from Javascript Console with: `oldf=submit_draw_form`+`function submit_draw_form(){ data['top-padding']=10; oldf(); }` - The default ~-0.1875 paddings can be overwritten
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 18 July 2018, 05:37:12
Post by: Glod on Thu, 23 August 2018, 17:01:59
----
I have a question, do all kind of stabs (PCB screw-in stabs, PCB snap-in stabs, and plate mount stabs) all use the same cutout in the plate?
from my understanding the tool does not support pcb stabs, plate only
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 August 2018, 17:57:38
I have a question, do all kind of stabs (PCB screw-in stabs, PCB snap-in stabs, and plate mount stabs) all use the same cutout in the plate?Yes. The cutouts work for all types of stabilizers. If you know you are using plate mounted stabilizers, then choose the Cherry Only cutout because the clip is located at the top where the extra cutout is for the all in one cutout. For PCB mount, you can use either.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Thu, 23 August 2018, 18:07:03
Anybody have advice for building a Phantom sandwich case with the tool? searches inside the topic didn't result in a confirmed answer to spacing or anyone actually doing it. wanted to build a case with custom dimensions and layout. I have like 2 Phantom PCBs just laying around (i've already built 4 of them) , and they are probably becoming resistant to soldering sitting in the open air.Careful. I don't think the KLE tool has the right spacing for a TKL board with a PCB. You will want to measure between the same point on two keys that are next to each other to confirm that they are 19mm apart. Then measure between two keys which are across the gap and figure out the fraction of a key which makes up the gap. Keep in mind that you will probably want to use the f12 and print screen keys as it will simplify the calculation as they are both 1u keys which are next to the gap.
----I have a question, do all kind of stabs (PCB screw-in stabs, PCB snap-in stabs, and plate mount stabs) all use the same cutout in the plate?
from my understanding the tool does not support pcb stabs, plate only
If that doesn't make sense I can explain it better when I am at my computer.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Glod on Thu, 23 August 2018, 20:19:36
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Light_ on Mon, 03 September 2018, 18:13:05
Was able to get the CAD generated by editing the page with Chrome.
Code: [Select]
<option value="0">Remove Stabilizer {_s:0}</option>Would still like to see sandblasting option.
Post by: Cadriel on Tue, 18 September 2018, 21:26:40
I noticed what might be a bug today. I attempted to put in a -0.3mm padding on all sides - and the dimensions listed at the bottom of the page after the CAD is drawn were not changing - although the render and dxf was showing the change.
Post by: RealLaugh on Sun, 21 October 2018, 12:35:49
Post by: swill on Sun, 21 October 2018, 19:51:49
seems like http://builder.swillkb.com/ is down or at least i get "site can't be reached / connection reset" message in Chrome after timeout.Thank you. I will look into it.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Thu, 24 January 2019, 21:36:25
Post by: TalkingTree on Fri, 25 January 2019, 12:07:28
Question: Is there a way I can specify a Cherry/Costar stabilizer for a spacebar while having the rest of the stabilized keys as Alps stabilizers?
Add _s:1 to your spacebar, e.g. {a:7,w:6.25,_s:1}
Post by: xiaoquana on Tue, 29 January 2019, 08:23:38
I uploaded a video to show the issue(to me).
(https://i.loli.net/2019/01/29/5c505febb013b.png)
Post by: jarz on Tue, 29 January 2019, 09:15:58
Hi, i came up with some problem when using http://builder.swillkb.com/ (http://builder.swillkb.com/) to generate a plate for a Mechanical keyboard. I tried the raw code of layout "keycool 84" and other layout from the site http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com,but it result like this in the following image . The trouble is that there is no downloading button , but you can see the width and hight information of the cad file. I tied in my mac and windows, reinstalled flash player , leading to the same result. Is there any thing i should do , or anything i have to install.
I uploaded a video to show the issue(to me).Show Image(https://i.loli.net/2019/01/29/5c505febb013b.png)
Your not alone. I started seeing the same thing yesterday. My bet is something is up with the site/tool. It was working a couple days ago. Swill can be PM'd here, might be worth a try.
You haven't done anything wrong, something looks to be wrong with the site.
Post by: swill on Tue, 29 January 2019, 10:23:35
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: xiaoquana on Tue, 29 January 2019, 18:03:31
Post by: swill on Wed, 30 January 2019, 19:25:20
Thanks for the heads up everyone. :)
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: xiaoquana on Thu, 31 January 2019, 06:25:35
Post by: swill on Thu, 31 January 2019, 11:29:06
well, it is working normally now, thanks!Perfect. Thanks for confirming.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: xiaoquana on Thu, 07 February 2019, 06:27:46
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 February 2019, 09:46:39
Swill, hurry up! http://builder.swillkb.com/ (http://builder.swillkb.com/) can not be connected again now! Please!I got it back up and running earlier this morning.
Thank you for letting me know the builder was down.
Just as a note. I offer this service for free at my own expense, so I am supporting it on a best efforts basis and I can't really provide an official SLA. :)
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Glod on Thu, 07 February 2019, 12:31:49
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 February 2019, 16:25:32
we appreciate you swill.Thanks. :)
Please don't take my last comment as being in a negative tone. I just want to make sure I set expectations appropriately. :)
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: xiaoquana on Thu, 07 February 2019, 18:13:18
Quote
Please don't take my last comment as being in a negative tone. I just want to make sure I set expectations appropriately.I apologize for my improper words ! Maybe you should add a Alipay or Wechat Pay interface for a donate. As i know there are some guys in China like me using your site do design a keyboard . But we don't us credit card or paypal , so no way to make a donate.
Post by: swill on Thu, 07 February 2019, 21:46:21
QuotePlease don't take my last comment as being in a negative tone. I just want to make sure I set expectations appropriately.I apologize for my improper words ! Maybe you should add a Alipay or Wechat Pay interface for a donate. As i know there are some guys in China like me using your site do design a keyboard . But we don't us credit card or paypal , so no way to make a donate.
No worries. I just wanted to make sure I was not setting an expectation which was difficult for me to maintain given the realities of my life. :)
I have not looked into Alipay or Wechat pay. I doubt I would be able to set them up in my region. Honestly, I am not worried about the costs. I have been running this site for over 5 years and it is not a financial burden do I am comfortable covering the costs. There are enough periodic donations and people buying plates through lasergist that it helps me cover my costs.
I am not doing this for a financial reason. My goal here is to enable people to realize their ideas and reduce the effort needed for people to make the keyboard of their dreams. I am a maker and I really enjoy enabling other makers, that is why I do this.
I appreciate all the support and enthusiasm in this community and I enjoy being a part of it. :)
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Glod on Thu, 21 February 2019, 14:30:44
it was NOT cheap, but I am really impressed with it
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7824/46446126134_ce5d93ed7c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dLhx9b)
more pictures
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmyKiGDi
Post by: swill on Thu, 21 February 2019, 14:38:15
Your board looks amazing!
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: swenbearswen on Tue, 05 March 2019, 16:47:54
It seems like the builder is down again. It was down yesterday as well.
Post by: xiaoquana on Tue, 05 March 2019, 17:46:19
Post by: swill on Tue, 05 March 2019, 17:57:00
Post by: ctrl on Wed, 06 March 2019, 06:06:33
I'm trying to learn how to make a custom half-plate in swillkb, but could use a few pointers.
My starting point is just a regular 60% layout from KLE. Then I figure the best way is to use a custom polygon to make the cutout on the inside.
I've experimented with it a bit, but I feel like I'm just adding arbitrary coordinates to find out where the best positions are.
Specifically, I'd like to know the best way to find the right distance I should use from the remaining switch cutouts to the edge of the inner custom polygon cutout.
EDIT: I've gone to work on the plate, but still feel like I'm just using arbitrary reference lines to calculate the middle coordinates between switch cutouts which means they won't be 0.001 mm exact. More like 0.1 mm. :/
I'm also trying to get rounded inner corners. Is there a trick to this? If I use add polygon and add a superellipse, it seems like the superellipse is being overridden by the custom polygon line I got cutting the edges to begin with. This is regardless of the order in which these actions are added.
EDIT 2: Nvm. Moved to LibreCAD. Learned some stuff. Solved my problems. :thumb:
Post by: ctrl on Fri, 08 March 2019, 18:39:05
Thank you very much!
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
I would have to look into that one. It could be that kerf is messing with my calculation on the site, but I would expect it to be consistent in terms of how the two numbers are different in both dimensions, so that doesn't seem like it would be the case.
Are you use custom polygons at all? Do any of them overlap the outer edge of the plate? I am wondering if I am not updating the bounds correctly (how I calculate the width and height) after the final operations (ie: cut | add) on the custom polygons. I will have to dig into this a bit. Anything special you were doing?
Were you able to find out what's causing this? I'm running into the same thing right now actually. I first noticed it when I uploaded the dxf file I exported from swillkb to bigbluesaw.
I'm totally messing about with custom polygons. I'm attempting a half-plate so I've cut away all alphas including the numerical row. As well as using superellipse to round corners. (See my other question in the previous comment.)
I'd like to know more about this because I'm hesitant to have plates cut for a sackful of gold if there's something messing up the measurements.
Post by: swill on Mon, 11 March 2019, 08:28:01
Thank you very much!
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
I would have to look into that one. It could be that kerf is messing with my calculation on the site, but I would expect it to be consistent in terms of how the two numbers are different in both dimensions, so that doesn't seem like it would be the case.
Are you use custom polygons at all? Do any of them overlap the outer edge of the plate? I am wondering if I am not updating the bounds correctly (how I calculate the width and height) after the final operations (ie: cut | add) on the custom polygons. I will have to dig into this a bit. Anything special you were doing?
Were you able to find out what's causing this? I'm running into the same thing right now actually. I first noticed it when I uploaded the dxf file I exported from swillkb to bigbluesaw.
I'm totally messing about with custom polygons. I'm attempting a half-plate so I've cut away all alphas including the numerical row. As well as using superellipse to round corners. (See my other question in the previous comment.)
I'd like to know more about this because I'm hesitant to have plates cut for a sackful of gold if there's something messing up the measurements.
Can you link me what you are trying to do so I can review? I don't believe I have applied kerf to the custom polygons, so if you are going to be doing anything that is pressure fit into a custom polygon, you may want to do a small test before you do a full build.
If you can give me a feel for what you are doing I can try to support. Cheers...
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 11 March 2019, 17:20:53
Quote from: RAW DATE
["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
With those settings :
(https://i.imgur.com/1UeA5f2.png)
I get stab holes on the capslock key. It seems to be related to the stabs I chose.
Because on other kind of stabs I don't have them.
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 March 2019, 08:25:21
Hello, trying to get myself a 60% plate for Alps.Quote from: RAW DATE["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
With those settings :Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/1UeA5f2.png)
I get stab holes on the capslock key. It seems to be related to the stabs I chose.
Because on other kind of stabs I don't have them.
Yes, the poker case has cutouts which are specific to the mount holes that are expected to be there for mounting the PCB to the case.
You have two options.
- You can change the hole/slot diameter with the Hole Diameter setting (maybe setting it to 2 [mm] would work), but I doubt it would because the alps stabs are pretty low.
- My recommended approach is to actually rotate that stabilizer cutout by 180 degrees ({_rs:180}) so they stabilizer goes on top of the switch instead of below.
Here is the raw data for my recommended approach:
Code: [Select]
["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{_rs:180, w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 12 March 2019, 11:16:56
Why is it giving me stab hole on a capslock key that needs to stabilisation ?
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 March 2019, 11:24:36
Sry I wasn't clear enough.
Why is it giving me stab hole on a capslock key that needs to stabilisation ?
Note that Alps and Cherry don't have stabilizers on exactly the same keys. So the 1.75u key is a stabilized key in Alps, but not in Cherry.
Alps Stabilized Key Ref: https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/master/key.go#L79-L96
Cherry Stabilized Key Ref: https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/master/key.go#L44-L77
Does that help?
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 12 March 2019, 11:28:04
Code: [Select]
["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
I'll make final verifications but it seems OK now.
(https://i.imgur.com/ilUa33q.png)
Thanks Swill !
Post by: swill on Tue, 12 March 2019, 11:54:19
Yes I found my mistake, the key is stepped. I forgot to add that into KLE.Code: [Select]["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
I'll make final verifications but it seems OK now.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ilUa33q.png)
Thanks Swill !
Ah, ok. Good catch. :thumb:
Post by: Primuds on Thu, 14 March 2019, 07:21:14
I am a fairly new guy to the custom keyboard scene, but I am really interested in making my own custom. As such, I have used Swillkb's tool to make a plate for a 75% layout. I am planning on using a kbd75 PCB with a 3d printed case as I wanted to have in-switch and underglow lighting. However, I am unsure if the cutouts on the rendering tool will line up correctly with a 75% layout pcb like the kbd75 or xd84. I think most boards use standardized spacing between switches, but is anybody aware if I will run into any issues? I would really appreciate if anybody has any feedback. Thank you! ;D
Post by: ctrl on Thu, 14 March 2019, 07:34:12
Thank you very much!
Another question, when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website. This is when creating a pok3r plate. What is the correct measurement?
I would have to look into that one. It could be that kerf is messing with my calculation on the site, but I would expect it to be consistent in terms of how the two numbers are different in both dimensions, so that doesn't seem like it would be the case.
Are you use custom polygons at all? Do any of them overlap the outer edge of the plate? I am wondering if I am not updating the bounds correctly (how I calculate the width and height) after the final operations (ie: cut | add) on the custom polygons. I will have to dig into this a bit. Anything special you were doing?
Were you able to find out what's causing this? I'm running into the same thing right now actually. I first noticed it when I uploaded the dxf file I exported from swillkb to bigbluesaw.
I'm totally messing about with custom polygons. I'm attempting a half-plate so I've cut away all alphas including the numerical row. As well as using superellipse to round corners. (See my other question in the previous comment.)
I'd like to know more about this because I'm hesitant to have plates cut for a sackful of gold if there's something messing up the measurements.
Can you link me what you are trying to do so I can review? I don't believe I have applied kerf to the custom polygons, so if you are going to be doing anything that is pressure fit into a custom polygon, you may want to do a small test before you do a full build.
If you can give me a feel for what you are doing I can try to support. Cheers...
I solved the inner cutout by doing it in LibreCAD instead. It was faster that way. However, it appears swillkb doesn't want to return correct plate measurements. Something happens that alter them, like merlin64 also wrote: "when opened up in LibreCad and saved in the 2007 file format, the measurements are actually 94.92mm by 285.37 instead of 95.252 mm by 285.752 mm on the swillkb website."
Post by: Slavfot on Sun, 17 March 2019, 13:12:37
I'm really impressed with your tool and have used it alot!
I'm a CAD user professionally and use solidworks to design keyboards on my spare time.
I''m wondering how you can get the x and y coordinates for each switch cutout from the KLE raw data?
I would like to import the raw data from KLE to an excel document that i can use with a table driven variable pattern in Solidworks.
In the excel document i would like to get X coordinates in one column and Y coordinates in the next column. And also the rotation data in columns.
Is there any way you could help me with this or at least point me in the right direction of achieving this?
I'm no programmer but i can copy paste and edit code and I'm always interested in learning new stuff.
Post by: swill on Sun, 17 March 2019, 17:08:12
Hi!This is absolutely possible, but you will have to get into the open source code a bit to do it. Everything you are looking for is already calculated and stored in the main KAD object.
I'm really impressed with your tool and have used it alot!
I'm a CAD user professionally and use solidworks to design keyboards on my spare time.
I''m wondering how you can get the x and y coordinates for each switch cutout from the KLE raw data?
I would like to import the raw data from KLE to an excel document that i can use with a table driven variable pattern in Solidworks.
In the excel document i would like to get X coordinates in one column and Y coordinates in the next column. And also the rotation data in columns.
Is there any way you could help me with this or at least point me in the right direction of achieving this?
I'm no programmer but i can copy paste and edit code and I'm always interested in learning new stuff.
I am not at a computer right now, but when I have a free few minutes I could write you a program to get you started.
If you want to start looking at it, review the 'Draw()' function in this file. It is the main sequence of operations to build the keyboard. https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/master/kad.go
You care mainly about the state of the KAD.Layout object after the ParseLayout() and maybe the DrawLayout() functions. Parse layout builds all they Key objects and fills in the details about rotations and such. DrawLayout() handles things like absolutely positioned keys and such which may be relevant for you.
Keep in mind that I have a static (I think 10mm) zone which I call the DMZ which is empty space outside the final drawing so the edges are not right against the edge of the artboard (or whatever it is called). Depending on if you want the X and Y to be relative to the top left of the workspace/artboard, then you will likely have to subtract the DMZ values from the coords you have for each switch. Hope that makes sense.
Have a look at the code and get a feel for what you need. If you can send me a few details about what the format of the output you need is, I should be able to get you going with some initial code anyway.
Cheers...
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Slavfot on Mon, 25 March 2019, 06:54:47
And i want the coordinate and rotation to be relative to the center of the switch, like in my picture.
I use an sacrificial extrude feature that is being copied with the variable driven table pattern.
This sacrifical feature is being copied and then deleted after all the switch holes have been copied with the pattern.
In the picture you can see the excel document that my CAD program drives the pattern from.
It needs to have every switch on a separate row and the x, y and rotation in columns next to it
(https://i.imgur.com/eNjmgSa.png)
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Fri, 05 April 2019, 07:14:22
Post by: swill on Fri, 05 April 2019, 11:41:11
I got some plates made using this, but the Alps stabilizer cutouts are too close to the switch and too tall. I have to shove the clips down away from the switch and then tack them down with hot glue, otherwise the wire will rub against the base of the switch. I'm using brand-new Matias stabilizers, and I know the dimensions and kerf is correct as the switches fit in perfectly, and the one Cherry stabilizer I put in works great also.Thanks for the feedback. I will review the specs and see what I can do to adapt.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Fri, 05 April 2019, 16:03:51
Thanks!I got some plates made using this, but the Alps stabilizer cutouts are too close to the switch and too tall. I have to shove the clips down away from the switch and then tack them down with hot glue, otherwise the wire will rub against the base of the switch. I'm using brand-new Matias stabilizers, and I know the dimensions and kerf is correct as the switches fit in perfectly, and the one Cherry stabilizer I put in works great also.Thanks for the feedback. I will review the specs and see what I can do to adapt.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Wed, 17 April 2019, 16:23:28
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 06 May 2019, 14:32:06
Yes I found my mistake, the key is stepped. I forgot to add that into KLE.Code: [Select]["¬\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"Enter"],
[{w:1.25,w2:1.75,l:true},"Caps Lock",{x:0.5},"A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","@\n'","~\n#"],
[{w:1.25},"Shift","|\n\\","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.5},"Ctrl","Win",{w:1.5},"Alt",{a:7,w:7},"",{a:4,w:1.5},"Win","Menu",{w:1.5},"Ctrl"]
I'll make final verifications but it seems OK now.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ilUa33q.png)
Thanks Swill !
Follow up question.
What kind of stabs am I supposed to use with the plate above?
I have stabs like this one :
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1315/1471/products/Cherry_Bottom_Hook_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1495601138)
It seems it's not the right kind for the plate designed above.
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 09 May 2019, 05:17:31
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sat, 11 May 2019, 09:32:09
anyone ?Those should work for the spacebar.
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 17 May 2019, 02:42:23
anyone ?Those should work for the spacebar.
I'll try again but that didn't seem to be the case.
So what are those Alps (Costar Fallback) Stabilizers ?
Post by: hasu on Fri, 17 May 2019, 16:05:53
anyone ?Those should work for the spacebar.
I'll try again but that didn't seem to be the case.
So what are those Alps (Costar Fallback) Stabilizers ?
We have source code fortunately! As comment says it draws Costar stab hole instead of Alps when it doesn't know stab offset for a key.
https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/e59f378cdbe7243088890ebbac429c2070af67fe/key.go#L405-L407
You can find known offsets for Alps here and offset for your 7u space bar is not available. So the tool draws Costar stab for the key. This is how "fallback" works.
https://github.com/swill/kad/blob/e59f378cdbe7243088890ebbac429c2070af67fe/key.go#L79-L95
Alps stablizer hole design for space bar can vary depending on manufacturer of your key stabilizer, not one design fits for all. You will have to draw for cylinder guide part yourself with CAD software. You may want to check this thread for Alps plate.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82916.150
Post by: ideus on Mon, 02 September 2019, 11:17:05
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 02 September 2019, 14:25:25
Is the builder tool off-line?Can't access it here either so looks like it is.
Post by: gipetto on Sun, 08 September 2019, 04:43:35
I found a workaround which is to save the files as svg type and edit them via text editor, search replace black with blue and 0.05000 with 0.01000, save each file and that's it.
Post by: swill on Sun, 08 September 2019, 10:17:45
I don't know has anyone posted this before but I ran into difficulty with the importing the plate files into ponoko, which demands blue line art and 0.01 width. Ponoko recommends the files be edited by hand in graphics software which is tedious and non libre. Inkscape will not work either.Hey gipetto,
I found a workaround which is to save the files as svg type and edit them via text editor, search replace black with blue and 0.05000 with 0.01000, save each file and that's it.
I actually added a feature to the builder specifically to handle their requirements.
You can use the Line Color feature to output the line color as blue.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-color
You can use the Line Weight feature to specify the line weight.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-weight
Let me know if you have additional questions. Cheers...
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: swill on Sun, 08 September 2019, 10:23:59
Oh, one more thing. I don't remember how ponoko handles kerf, but be sure to check. If I remember correctly, cutting acrylic usually has a substantial kerf and can really mess with the fit of parts like switches if not properly accounted for. I would recommend contacting ponoko and getting a clear understanding if they account for kerf in their process, or if you need to specify their kerf into the tool so the builder can account for the kerf. Hope that is helpful.I don't know has anyone posted this before but I ran into difficulty with the importing the plate files into ponoko, which demands blue line art and 0.01 width. Ponoko recommends the files be edited by hand in graphics software which is tedious and non libre. Inkscape will not work either.Hey gipetto,
I found a workaround which is to save the files as svg type and edit them via text editor, search replace black with blue and 0.05000 with 0.01000, save each file and that's it.
I actually added a feature to the builder specifically to handle their requirements.
You can use the Line Color feature to output the line color as blue.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-color
You can use the Line Weight feature to specify the line weight.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#line-weight
Let me know if you have additional questions. Cheers...
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: psyduck200 on Mon, 07 October 2019, 03:02:33
Just wanna ask about the mount holes part in the CAD details. Is it possible to move those holes to another location instead of having them around the edges of a plate?
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 07 October 2019, 04:45:48
Just wanna ask about the mount holes part in the CAD details. Is it possible to move those holes to another location instead of having them around the edges of a plate?
You would need to select case type 'none' to remove the side slots and holes used on a standard 60% then use the 'Custom Polygons' section to add holes wherever you want them :)
Post by: psyduck200 on Mon, 07 October 2019, 05:30:50
ah i see. i'll give it a try, thanks!
Post by: xiaoquana on Sun, 15 December 2019, 06:24:39
Post by: joeym on Tue, 17 December 2019, 01:02:38
it looks like http://builder.swillkb.com/ is down and I did not have success building kad for myself (I added a ticket but suspect I am doing it wrong.) At any rate can anybody give me any help here?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 05 January 2020, 13:19:00
Post by: swill on Sun, 05 January 2020, 13:31:42
I think I need more info to be able to help you find a solution to this.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 05 January 2020, 14:17:16
What is the intention of drawing a geometry inside an area that will be waste in the resulting cutout?
I think I need more info to be able to help you find a solution to this.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Kinda hard to explain.
The simple answer is that I'm not actually cutting plates, but using the dxf files from swill KB to locate keycap models I've created in fusion 360.
Long explanation: I made some keycaps in fusion 360, and I locate them by importing a swillKB dxf plate and creating rigid joints between (sets of) keycaps and corresponding cutouts on the switchplate. Works great, and your tool is invaluable.
Problem is, that once I create the joints between the keycaps and the dxf plate in Fusion, the keycaps become rigidly pinned to the ground and I can't move them (at least, as far as I can tell).
To deal with this problem, I tried creating a mesh surface from the switchplate, which works, except for some reason fusion won't let me create joints between the keycap bodies and the center of the switch cutouts. Don't ask.
So the next thing I tried was creating surfaces from each of the cutouts (so, basically, the inverse of what I was doing above) and then joining the keycaps to them. This works, except it creates literally like a hundred little surfaces (one for each switch cutout), and clutters up my model.
So what I want to be able to do is make a circle in the center of each switch cutout that is continguous with the rest of the plate, so that I can locate the keycaps to these center points and only create one surface.
So, basically, what I'm trying to do is make each switch cutout look something like this: https://imgur.com/rvlWsLv
Post by: swill on Mon, 06 January 2020, 22:25:59
I have made an update to the draw logic to essentially establish all of the plate/switch/stabilizer elements, and then have the custom polygons applied to the resulting drawing. I think is is likely how people expect the functionality works anyway, so I think this will make it more intuitive to work with.
So, in order to create the shape you are showing in your image, you can do the following.
So if we take a normal layout like this Poker Layout:
Code: [Select]
["~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
We can add the following 3 custom polygons:
[attachimg=1]
We then configure the centers to be [0,0] and the appropriate diameter, width and height as needed:
[attachimg=2]
Notice that we have not specified any values in the relative to field. By not specifying this field, the polygons are only defined, but are not actually specified to be drawn anywhere. Instead of drawing them explicitly, we are defining them so they can be placed in relation to the center of the switch cutout/position. This is done by specifying a metadata object for each key you are drawing.
For more details about how to work with custom polygons, check the following docs:
- Custom Polygon Docs (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons)
- Switch Metadata Formatting (http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout)
Essentially, the following code modifies the first row of switches to apply the custom polygons with index "0,1,2" (defined above).
Code: [Select]
[{_c:"0,1,2"},"~\n`",{_c:"0,1,2"},"!\n1",{_c:"0,1,2"},"@\n2",{_c:"0,1,2"},"#\n3",{_c:"0,1,2"},"$\n4",{_c:"0,1,2"},"%\n5",{_c:"0,1,2"},"^\n6",{_c:"0,1,2"},"&\n7",{_c:"0,1,2"},"*\n8",{_c:"0,1,2"},"(\n9",{_c:"0,1,2"},")\n0",{_c:"0,1,2"},"_\n-",{_c:"0,1,2"},"+\n=",{_c:"0,1,2",w:2},"Backspace"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl"]
Which results in the following drawing:
[attachimg=3]
You will notice that all the custom polygon that are specified as Add (or Cut) will be unioned together to make a different complex polygon. You can actually union together both Add and Cut operations to produce very interesting shapes.
Let me know if this covers your use case.
Cheers...
What is the intention of drawing a geometry inside an area that will be waste in the resulting cutout?
I think I need more info to be able to help you find a solution to this.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Kinda hard to explain.
The simple answer is that I'm not actually cutting plates, but using the dxf files from swill KB to locate keycap models I've created in fusion 360.
Long explanation: I made some keycaps in fusion 360, and I locate them by importing a swillKB dxf plate and creating rigid joints between (sets of) keycaps and corresponding cutouts on the switchplate. Works great, and your tool is invaluable.
Problem is, that once I create the joints between the keycaps and the dxf plate in Fusion, the keycaps become rigidly pinned to the ground and I can't move them (at least, as far as I can tell).
To deal with this problem, I tried creating a mesh surface from the switchplate, which works, except for some reason fusion won't let me create joints between the keycap bodies and the center of the switch cutouts. Don't ask.
So the next thing I tried was creating surfaces from each of the cutouts (so, basically, the inverse of what I was doing above) and then joining the keycaps to them. This works, except it creates literally like a hundred little surfaces (one for each switch cutout), and clutters up my model.
So what I want to be able to do is make a circle in the center of each switch cutout that is continguous with the rest of the plate, so that I can locate the keycaps to these center points and only create one surface.
So, basically, what I'm trying to do is make each switch cutout look something like this: https://imgur.com/rvlWsLv
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 07 January 2020, 00:21:29
Awesome. Thank you.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 08 January 2020, 21:27:12
Code: [Select]
[{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2",x:1},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.5},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.5},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.25},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"}],
[{_c:"0,1,2",y:0.5},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_s:0,_c:"0,1,2",w:2},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.25},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"}],
[{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.5},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.5},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.25},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"}],
[{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.75},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_s:0,_c:"0,1,2",w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{_s:0,_c:"0,1,2",w:2.25},"Shift",{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_s:0,_c:"0,1,2",w:2.75},"Shift",{_c:"0,1,2",x:1.25}],
[{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_s:0,_c:"0,1,2",a:7,w:6.25},"",{_c:"0,1,2",a:4,w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",w:1.25},{_c:"0,1,2",x:0.25},{_c:"0,1,2"},{_c:"0,1,2"}]
Post by: swill on Wed, 08 January 2020, 22:32:25
A couple things I notice:
- you are assuming there are 3 custom polygons in the key definition, with indexes "0,1,2", but you only appear to have 2 polygons defined.
- you have set the "relative to" field to [0,0], which defines a point relative to the center of the plate. I suspect that you want to leave that blank in order to not draw those shapes on the plate (in the global coordinate system) and passively specify the "relative to" coordinates based on the switch centers by using the metadata for the different switches.
Do my points make sense? Did I answer your question?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 09 January 2020, 11:13:14
I'm referring to this strange geometry it decided to draw on one of the cutouts. I've circled it in the image I attached to this comment.
Oh damn, you're right, it's probably that I specified [0,0]. I bet you that's the problem.
Sorry for not being super clear with my first question.
Post by: swill on Thu, 09 January 2020, 12:42:47
I hope that helps. Again, it is likely useful to review the documentation if you have questions.
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#plate-layout
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#custom-polygons
Cheers,
Will
My bad,
I'm referring to this strange geometry it decided to draw on one of the cutouts. I've circled it in the image I attached to this comment.
Oh damn, you're right, it's probably that I specified [0,0]. I bet you that's the problem.
Sorry for not being super clear with my first question.
Post by: idolon on Thu, 09 January 2020, 22:43:46
My layout looks like this:
Code: [Select]
[{sm:"cherry",a:5},"M1","M2","M3","M4"],
[{y:0.5},"Num Lock","/","*","-"],
["7\nHome","8\n↑","9\nPgUp",{h:2},"+"],
["4\n←",{n:true},"5","6\n→"],
["1\nEnd","2\n↓","3\nPgDn",{h:2},"Enter"],
[{w:2},"0\nIns",".\nDel"]Case type is set to none, and I want to add some slots/holes where the plate should fit into a 3D printed case. Adding polygons works:
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
But if I cut the same polygons, nothing gets cut out:
[attach=3]
Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: swill on Fri, 10 January 2020, 06:14:08
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: idolon on Sat, 11 January 2020, 14:03:52
I can confirm that reverting to 5b444fe and running everything locally works.
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Thu, 16 January 2020, 11:29:33
Post by: swill on Thu, 16 January 2020, 17:33:12
I need to find some time to review how things are broken with the changes which enabled Pancakes use case.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Gilead_1999 on Tue, 28 January 2020, 08:11:20
Post by: Zustiur on Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:37:08
I've just attempted to use your builder as a way of verifying my manually drawn plate. I see your tool still struggles to handle rotation correctly. It appears to be ignoring the rx and ry values entirely.
Here's my raw code:
["Esc",{x:0.77},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.76},"F5","F6"],
[{r:12.5,rx:0,ry:0,y:0.25,x:5,f:3},"#\n3"],
[{y:-0.75,x:4},"@\n2"],
[{y:-0.75,x:6},"$\n4"],
[{y:-0.75,x:7},"%\n5","^\n6"],
[{y:-0.75,x:2},"~\n`","!\n1",{x:1},"F"],
[{y:-0.75,x:4},"W"],
[{y:-0.75,x:6},"P"],
[{y:-0.75,x:7},"G",{h:1.25},"{\n["],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.5,w:1.5},"Tab","Q",{x:1},"S"],
[{y:-0.75,x:4},"R"],
[{y:-0.75,x:6},"T"],
[{y:-0.75,x:7},"D"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.5,w:1.5},"E","A",{x:1},"C",{x:2,h:1.25},"Enter"],
[{y:-0.75,x:4},"X"],
[{y:-0.75,x:6},"V"],
[{y:-0.75,x:7},"B"],
[{y:-0.75,x:1.5,w:1.5},"L Shift","Z",{x:1},"L Alt"],
[{y:-0.75,x:4},"N"],
[{y:-0.75,x:6,h:1.25},"BSpc"],
[{y:-0.5,x:1.5,w:1.25},"L Ctrl",{w:1.25},"M"],
[{r:42.5,rx:0,ry:0,x:10.19,y:0.75,h:2},"Del"],
[{r:42.5,rx:0,ry:0,x:9.19,y:1,h:1.5},"Space"]
In your tool this produces a key placement with miles between the main body of keys and the final two keys. I use rx:0 and ry:0 to reset the measurement to the top left corner, but your tool seems to be continuing it's calculations based purely on x: and y: + the previous row. This also results in an extra U of space between row 0 and row 1.
As a separate note, I don't care for stabilizers, I was just going to use plain square switch holes, but the tool isn't letting me select {_s:0}. I've tried this in three browsers (palemoon which is a firefox spin off, edge and chrome).
There's no urgency on these issues as I was just using it for verification, but I thought you should know of the errors I encountered.
Post by: stevexyz on Sat, 18 April 2020, 11:26:52
Post by: cgbuen on Sun, 17 May 2020, 05:17:08
Everything seemed to fit well except for the spacebar stabilizer clip cutouts - they cut all the way to the edge.
[attach=3]
(This is as opposed to the original hasu 60% AEKII plate I was using before, where there was a little bit of plate left over so that the stabilizer could fit on both ends.)
[attach=2]
This was particularly bone-chilling at first, thinking this was going to end badly, but I just.. pushed the edges of the stabilizers/plate all the way to the edge of the Hammer alu case, so that the case holds them in place. Seems to work for now, but I worry a little bit about trouble down the line.
[attach=1]
Also didn't otherwise realize I had to put in the extra cutout for the "spacebar bar" stabilizer, but it's working fine without it, for now, too.
[attach=4]
But everything else did end up working out nicely.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 17 May 2020, 05:36:43
I just.. pushed the edges of the stabilizers/plate all the way to the edge of the Hammer alu case, so that the case holds them in place. Seems to work for now, but I worry a little bit about trouble down the line.
You could add a little epoxy or hot glue under the plate to hold the stabs, wouldn't want them rubbing on the nice case. Looks like there's a tiny gap between the plate and the case and the bit left on the old plate was very thin so it probably got lost in the kerf.
Also it's a blue Alps HHKBish - very nice :thumb:
Post by: stevexyz on Thu, 04 June 2020, 19:42:49
Do someone knows why why on builder.swillkb.com is written free worldwide shipping and instead when you go on lasergist checkout they apply shipping costs?PS: I'm from Italy, doesn't it work for it?
Maybe there is a minimum order amount required (in case, which one)?
@swill any idea?
Thank you!
Post by: NuttyNougat on Tue, 16 June 2020, 23:22:13
I'm trying to add mounting holes to a plate but I'm not seeing any circles at all.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Post by: cgbuen on Mon, 13 July 2020, 12:15:43
You could add a little epoxy or hot glue under the plate to hold the stabs, wouldn't want them rubbing on the nice case. Looks like there's a tiny gap between the plate and the case and the bit left on the old plate was very thin so it probably got lost in the kerf.
Also it's a blue Alps HHKBish - very nice :thumb:
Any idea on recommended kerf value to enter in to not have this happen, yet still be able to mount in stabilizer clips (and switches for that matter)? I was thinking about getting in on a couple more plates. I believe the value from that order I made was the "lasergist recommended" .15.
Post by: jstein91 on Wed, 22 July 2020, 14:39:08
Here's my KLE:
["Esc",{x:1},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"PrtSc","Scroll Lock","Pause\nBreak"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace",{x:0.25},"Insert","Home","PgUp"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\",{x:0.25},"Delete","End","PgDn"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift",{x:1.25, _c:"0"},"↑"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{x:0.25},"←","↓","→"]
I'm trying to add a rounded rectangle cut out relative to the up arrow key.
I plug in some settings:
[attach=1]
but then I get this output:
[attach=2]
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I've read the documentation multiple times but I'm still coming up short.
As far as I understand, I've defined the arrow key as the relative to point, left the first relative to field blank, and filled in the second relative to field whose numbers should be relative to the center of the switch I defined earlier. But no cut is made. I tried switching it to other layers(for a sandwich case) like the bottom to see if its actually making the cut but it still isnt.
Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
Post by: aw11man on Tue, 04 August 2020, 22:20:28
Seems weird since the main swillkb site is up fine
Downloading from github right now, but would be convenient for the site to be put back up.
Post by: kajahtaa on Wed, 26 August 2020, 23:19:44
Site is down? http://builder.swillkb.com/
Seems weird since the main swillkb site is up fine
Downloading from github right now, but would be convenient for the site to be put back up.
Don't know if you saw this. https://kibotin.lombokgeeks.xyz/
Or
https://kbplate.ai03.com/
Post by: hvontres on Sat, 29 August 2020, 02:18:59
Looking for some help getting the builder to draw my plate.
Here's my KLE:
["Esc",{x:1},"F1","F2","F3","F4",{x:0.5},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{x:0.5},"F9","F10","F11","F12",{x:0.25},"PrtSc","Scroll Lock","Pause\nBreak"],
[{y:0.5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{w:2},"Backspace",{x:0.25},"Insert","Home","PgUp"],
[{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\",{x:0.25},"Delete","End","PgDn"],
[{w:1.75},"Caps Lock","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter"],
[{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift",{x:1.25, _c:"0"},"↑"],
[{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:6.25},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Win",{w:1.25},"Menu",{w:1.25},"Ctrl",{x:0.25},"←","↓","→"]
I'm trying to add a rounded rectangle cut out relative to the up arrow key.
I plug in some settings:
(Attachment Link)
but then I get this output:
(Attachment Link)
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I've read the documentation multiple times but I'm still coming up short.
As far as I understand, I've defined the arrow key as the relative to point, left the first relative to field blank, and filled in the second relative to field whose numbers should be relative to the center of the switch I defined earlier. But no cut is made. I tried switching it to other layers(for a sandwich case) like the bottom to see if its actually making the cut but it still isnt.
Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
I think custom cutouts are broken right now. Adding material seems to work, but cutouts don't. It looks like the bug was introduced back in January : https://github.com/swill/kad/issues/19
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2020, 21:34:07
Post by: Narf on Sat, 03 October 2020, 12:09:40
Is the builder's site not working?It has been down for me since evening of Oct 1.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2020, 12:44:39
Is the builder's site not working?It has been down for me since evening of Oct 1.
I found it yesterday when trying to build a plate for my upcomoing build. I hope it gests back to work soon.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2020, 12:59:14
Does someone have the coordinates for 60% standard holes's centers and the proper size for an standard 60% plate?
I just found this today, in case someone needs a plate asap.
http://www.keyboardcad.com (http://www.keyboardcad.com)
However, it does not provide the cut for 60% case's holes.
Post by: SE7EN_ate_NINE on Sun, 04 October 2020, 13:19:33
...
I just found this today, in case someone needs a plate asap.
http://www.keyboardcad.com (http://www.keyboardcad.com)
...
Sadly that one doesn't work for 7U space, gives an error. :(
Post by: xiaoquana on Mon, 05 October 2020, 05:41:45
Post by: ideus on Mon, 05 October 2020, 07:18:26
Post by: ideus on Mon, 05 October 2020, 07:20:02
...
I just found this today, in case someone needs a plate asap.
http://www.keyboardcad.com (http://www.keyboardcad.com)
...
Sadly that one doesn't work for 7U space, gives an error. :(
It lacks corner rounding, holes for bolts for sixty cases and other nicities that Swill's have.
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 October 2020, 21:31:07
http://builder.swillkb.com
Post by: stotle.caps on Fri, 16 October 2020, 05:05:15
Post by: ideus on Fri, 16 October 2020, 07:51:22
i want to make a gasket mount plate like this shorturl.at/afwRW any info on how to make it
Your link does not work. At least for me.
Post by: stotle.caps on Sat, 24 October 2020, 05:57:24
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 24 October 2020, 08:30:45
like this,my bad the url is broken for some reason
That's going to need custom polygons, the 'cut polygon' option is broken but 'add polygon' works. Looks like you want 'plate corners' on, then add six rounded rectangles above/below but without seeing the whole plate I can't be sure.
Post by: stotle.caps on Fri, 30 October 2020, 05:02:44
Post by: jrel on Mon, 02 November 2020, 07:18:07
I am in the planning process of building a 40% keyboard with OLED, rotary encoder and underglow.
That is my current draft:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@_name=jr-planck&plate:true&pcb:true%3B&@=Magic1&_x:1%3B&=Magic2&=Magic3&=Magic4%3B&@_a:7%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=Back%20Space%3B&@=Esc&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F%3B&='%3B&@=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=,&=.&=%2F%2F&=Return%3B&@=&=Ctrl&=Alt&=Super&=%2F&dArr%2F%3B&_w:2%3B&=&=%2F&uArr%2F%3B&=%2F&larr%2F%3B&=%2F&darr%2F%3B&=%2F&uarr%2F%3B&=%2F&rarr%2F%3B%3B&@_rx:9.25&ry:1&y:-1&x:-0.25&c=%23000000&t=%23ffffff&f:7&w:2%3B&=OLED
- How could I add a placeholder for the OLED cutout? How can I set the right dimensions for it? Can I place it at the edge and have no border for it?
- Is there a way to add some wings for a gasket mounted plate?
- Is there a way to handle flex cutouts?
Thanks!
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 16 November 2020, 12:31:27
roughly like this,sorry for the late reply,been doing some raw sketch for the alst couple days,but i want to make the plate looking like this,i already try to add custom polygons,but its so complicated for me to understand,and i dont want any mounting holes on the plate cause it will be sandwiched between acrlylic caseSorry for the even slower reply!
If you add some measurements and the KLE for your switches I'll have a go, without them I can't.
Hey,
I am in the planning process of building a 40% keyboard with OLED, rotary encoder and underglow.
That is my current draft:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@_name=jr-planck&plate:true&pcb:true%3B&@=Magic1&_x:1%3B&=Magic2&=Magic3&=Magic4%3B&@_a:7%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=Back%20Space%3B&@=Esc&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F%3B&='%3B&@=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=,&=.&=%2F%2F&=Return%3B&@=&=Ctrl&=Alt&=Super&=%2F&dArr%2F%3B&_w:2%3B&=&=%2F&uArr%2F%3B&=%2F&larr%2F%3B&=%2F&darr%2F%3B&=%2F&uarr%2F%3B&=%2F&rarr%2F%3B%3B&@_rx:9.25&ry:1&y:-1&x:-0.25&c=%23000000&t=%23ffffff&f:7&w:2%3B&=OLED
- How could I add a placeholder for the OLED cutout? How can I set the right dimensions for it? Can I place it at the edge and have no border for it?
- Is there a way to add some wings for a gasket mounted plate?
- Is there a way to handle flex cutouts?
Thanks!
You would really like 'subtract polygons' to work for 1 and 3, but it doesn't. The only way to make it would be to build it out of lots of polygons and I'm not sure how that would work as you want switch holes in twobof them.
2 is the same as stotle's? If sobyou jyst 'add polygons' round the edge.
Post by: TalkingTree on Mon, 16 November 2020, 13:14:24
This code:
Code: [Select]
Top and bottom supports:
Add polygon - Custom polygon.
shape: [-x/2-10,-y]; [-10,-y]; [x/2-10,-y]; [-x/2-10,y]; [-10,y]; [x/2-10,y]
path: [0,0]; [5,-5]; [15,-5]; [20,0]; [15,5]; [5,5]
Top and bottom supports holes:
Cut polygon - Circle.
diameter: 3
shape: [-x/2,-y-5]; [0,-y-5]; [x/2,-y-5]; [-x/2,y+5]; [0,y+5]; [x/2,y+5]
circle centers: [0,0]
Lateral supports:
Add polygon - Custom polygon.
shape: [-x,-y/2-10]; [-x,y/2-10]; [x,-y/2-10]; [x,y/2-10]
path: [5,5]; [5,15]; [0,20]; [-5,15]; [-5,5]; [0,0]
Lateral supports holes:
Cut polygon - Circle.
diameter: 3
shape: [-x-5,-y/2]; [-x-5,y/2]; [x+5,-y/2]; [x+5,y/2]
circle centers: [0,0]
Will give you something like this:
[attachurl=1]
Post by: debo on Sat, 03 April 2021, 18:38:26
I also tried to build from source but without luck. Is there a working version of this tool somewhere else? Thanks in advance for your help.