Author Topic: Religion Therapy  (Read 28382 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #200 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 05:50:27 »
To be honest I'm getting really sick of this Christmas hate ****. I'm not even christian but I celebrate the holiday because let's be honest. At this point it has little to do with Christ. Hell in Japan it has more to do with KFC than baby Jesus. This whole PC thing about having to say happy holidays or be sued is just ridiculous. I didn't look this year, but last year I recall Christmas trees were holiday trees at Target. I mean who cares it's just another day off from work (unless you work retail I guess) to be with your family, or playing fallout 4.

I'm glad that you recognize the irony in the PC of it. Many real believers in Christ point it out, but aren't too bothered by it. The true Church, not a particular denomination, has generally thrived through history when it has been persecuted. It's that resistance that strengthens the true believer, like a muscle. It tends to weed out those who give their faith mere lip service.

Offline Waateva

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1782
  • Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #201 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 07:51:36 »
To be honest I'm getting really sick of this Christmas hate ****. I'm not even christian but I celebrate the holiday because let's be honest. At this point it has little to do with Christ. Hell in Japan it has more to do with KFC than baby Jesus. This whole PC thing about having to say happy holidays or be sued is just ridiculous. I didn't look this year, but last year I recall Christmas trees were holiday trees at Target. I mean who cares it's just another day off from work (unless you work retail I guess) to be with your family, or playing fallout 4.

I'm glad that you recognize the irony in the PC of it. Many real believers in Christ point it out, but aren't too bothered by it. The true Church, not a particular denomination, has generally thrived through history when it has been persecuted. It's that resistance that strengthens the true believer, like a muscle. It tends to weed out those who give their faith mere lip service.

I have never met anyone who got offended at greetings like "Merry Christmas" just like I have never met anyone who was upset about the Starbucks cups for their supposed betrayal of Christmas.  I think that these are both examples of a very small but vocal minority's opinion being considered the majority opinion when it really isn't or is greatly exaggerated.

On the subject of persecution, I think that Christians pretty much anywhere but the Middle East and some parts of Africa and Asia know nothing about persecution and its frankly disingenuous to those actually suffering in those places.  Not being able to pray at a football game or not being able to hand out church pamphlets at your kid's school is NOT persecution, and I think that, oddly enough, the Satanists have shown just how hypocritical some Christians are in that regards.  The recent fusses over the schoool pamphlets in Florida, the ten commandments statues in Arkansas and Oklahoma, and the nativity scenes in multiple places around the US are showing just how ironic it is that Christians want their pamphlets/statues/religious iconography to stay up in places but then when another religious group wants to do the same its not allowed.  I honestly never thought I would see the day when Satanists taught me more about true religious freedom than Christians would.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2015, 08:14:09 by Waateva »
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline baldgye

  • Will Smith Disciple
  • Posts: 4780
  • Location: UK
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #202 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 07:53:30 »
To be honest I'm getting really sick of this Christmas hate ****. I'm not even christian but I celebrate the holiday because let's be honest. At this point it has little to do with Christ. Hell in Japan it has more to do with KFC than baby Jesus. This whole PC thing about having to say happy holidays or be sued is just ridiculous. I didn't look this year, but last year I recall Christmas trees were holiday trees at Target. I mean who cares it's just another day off from work (unless you work retail I guess) to be with your family, or playing fallout 4.

Why would not being a Christian affect the way you celebrate a pagan festival?
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2015, 07:56:05 by baldgye »

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #203 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 08:05:20 »


A favorite pastime of ours is desperately searching for  something to complain about and turning it into a cause.

Offline romevi

  • Formerly romevi
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8942
  • Location: The Windy City
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #204 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 08:36:46 »


A favorite pastime of ours is desperately searching for  something to complain about and turning it into a cause.

America in a nutshell.

Offline Parak

  • Posts: 532
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #205 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 15:38:17 »
A favorite pastime of ours is desperately searching for  something to complain about and turning it into a cause.


Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #206 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:21:14 »
Curious: For those who've grown up with faith (doesn't matter the background) and are now in disbelief of any deity, what made you change your mind?

I'd particularly like to hear from those, if any, who've struggled with the possibility that there is no god but very much would like to believe in one.

I haven't been following this thread, but from glancing through it I'm impressed that there seems to be actual discussion happening.

I grew up Mormon and was active in the church until recently. I served a two-year mission in the Philippines. It's hard to overstate how difficult and rewarding that experience was. I came back home thoroughly committed to the church and enthusiastic about continuing to fulfill what I saw as my obligations to God. Despite that, the following 10 years were spent gradually sliding away from the church intellectually and emotionally.

The final nail in the coffin that actually caused me to stop attending was the church's position on LGBT issues. It became clear to me that the church's teachings and culture on these issues had done a huge amount of damage to me personally, and had caused me to be self-hating and to make poor decisions. I stopped wanting to be part of it.

I'm not sure what I believe in anymore. I'm not an atheist, but I don't believe in God the way I once did either. I do hope that existence continues after death, but I can't say with confidence that I believe it will. I'm taking an extended break from religion and not really seeking to come to any conclusion about it. I do enjoy talking through it though.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #207 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:38:16 »
You're the second former LDS missionary to comment on this thread and while there are some distinct doctrinal differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, I've had nothing but good encounters with every one I've had a pleasure to work for, with or just befriended.

I'm curious if you could make any generalizations about  people of different faith backgrounds you've interacted with in the field?

Offline Waateva

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1782
  • Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #208 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:34:54 »
...

Given this information, would you agree that your belief structure along with others is hugely influenced by your current location, upbringing, and birthplace?  I know that there are probably millions and millions of people from all different religions all over the world who have "proven" to themselves through various means that their particular religion or even their particular branch of religion is the correct one, which as you said is up to them for what they decide is correct in their own life.  Also, if this is true, would you entertain the thought that there could be a single common deity that encompasses the Abrahamic religions and that the differences between Catholics, Christians, Muslims, and Jews are small enough that they could enter one common afterlife?

Of course, a person's entire worldview is based primarily on their experience and partially on "common sense", or their chosen thought processes about the evidence they have gathered. It doesn't rule out the possibility of God making Himself known to individuals and revealing the way for them to open dialogue with Him, though. However, it's usually a person that brings this information to light, as I said before, God chooses to use us for His work.

I entertain the thought that there is a single Deity, certainly :) Christianity, Judaism and Catholicism are essentially the same religion, with either an incomplete view (Judaism) or a misfocused one (Catholicism) and there are undoubtedly "saved" people in each group (although Jews who are "saved" would recognise Jesus and the Messiah and are then essentially Christians). Islam is different, since it's based around the writings and acts of a further prophet (Mohammed) who lived around 600 years after Christ and who created a new religion placing himself as a focal point, above the status of Christ. Although it includes biblical books in it's "scripture", it attempts to supercede them with the works of a single man (the Qu'ran). There are many devout practitioners, and it's possible some have taken the right way in approaching God, but usually that will mean He reveals to them the fact of Jesus' deity and most would then call themselves Christians.

Regardless, everyone has their own path to follow, but if they want to enter the Kingdom of God, they need to come to Him "through Christ" (accepting God's path for reconciliation, not their own), they need to acknowledge their need of something more than their own ability and place themselves "on His mercy", recognising both their guilt and inability to remove it from themselves. It's not for us to decide if a person is "saved" or not, that's entirely up to God, and completely personal / individual, but there is only one "way".

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6

Ultimately it's all about if you know and are known by God. Relationship.

While it's important for people to realise their need for "salvation", when people focus on Heaven and Hell as places of pleasure and torment respectively and the need to be "saved" from Hell into Heaven, their focus is shifted from the personal to the legal, from the spirit of the law to the letter, from the purposes of God in the personal sense, to the laws and actions in a practical, impersonal sense. It's also a rather selfish way of looking at things and gives an ulterior motive in wanting to be "saved", so instead of suffering you have pleasure, using fear of suffering as a persuasion to "turn". It shouldn't be about wanting to please ourselves as much as wanting to please God. After all, the reason we need His mercy is that we have displeased Him in the first place. The core message of scripture is this: He created us, loves us and made the ultimate sacrifice for us in order to be able to have a (healthy) relationship with us. The summary Jesus made of the "greatest commandment" is to "love God". In order to do this, we need to know God. God loves you already, has made a way for you to make contact with him and experience His love and mercy, then love Him back.

The reason I say it's a healthy relationship is that those who make contact through the process of "salvation" have both the desire to be in a relationship with Him and the right understanding of who He is, what He's done and where they each fit in the relationship.

See, this information in one form or another was repeated over and over to me growing up and I'm still not buying it.  Christians picked the "right" version and the other versions are either misguided or wrong like everyone else in the world, which just seems so...arrogant to me.  To take it even further, there are countless sects within Christianity that consider their sub-version of Christianity the "right" version and even question if their fellow Christians will get into heaven.  I realize that most religions in the world require similar commitments but that is a major issue I have with them in general, as their Gods all frankly seem like complete *******s.  There supposedly benevolent Gods often reflect some of the worst qualities of humanity like jealousy, anger, and violence but we sanitize those qualities or excuse them completely which is unacceptable.

Quote
....
Using your examples of things later proven by science, so many of them seem to be things that are proven by science than back-checked to the bible. 
...

The King James translation was completed in 1611 and states: "canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?". The "waywardness" of Arcturus was discovered in 1718 by Sir Edmond Halley. The "sons" were discovered in 1971. IMHO there is nothing wrong with going "back" to the Bible to see if new scientific discoveries have already been mentioned there. Is there any other way to check for "scientific accuracy" in the Bible? You need things that are clear and testable and I believe this matches the criteria well, along with the Pleiades and Orion references in the previous verse.

The Bible states that there was a beginning. That the universe had a start at some particular event. Before the proposal of the Big Bang, the common scientific belief was that the universe either had a uniform or cyclical history.

And you skipped the expansion of the universe. There are many verses that mention God "stretching out the heavens", here are a few:
Isaiah 42:5
Isaiah 44:24
Isaiah 45:12
Isaiah 48:13
Isaiah 51:13
Jeremiah 10:12
Jeremiah 51:15
Job 9:8
Psalms 104:2
Zechariah 12:1


I agree that there isn't anything wrong with going back to the bible to check against current scientific discoveries, my problem lies in forcing things to fit those discoveries with purposely vague information, along with a random mixture of things being taken very literally, figuratively, or illustratively. 

I didn't comment on the expansion example because there wasn't specific verses cited, but looking at them they definitely do not seem scientific in any way.  Some of the information in the bible can certainly be interpreted in a scientific way but these verses if anything seem to point to the very un-scientific biblical belief of the firmament rather than a scientific view of the universe constantly expanding.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:36:49 by Waateva »
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline Waateva

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1782
  • Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #209 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:56:51 »
On the subject of church splits and unsavory leadership but not related to much else, I also have the "privilege" of having a somewhat niche specialty at my job.  I work at an accounting firm but I personally deal more with tax preparation, health insurance, and unofficial IT capacities but during tax season I am one of only two people in the office who deals with pastoral tax returns.  Pastors have some funky rules in regards to their compensation while also having the housing allowance, which I could certainly rant against for hours but won't for the sake of staying on topic, and therefore you need to know these rules before you can prepare one of their returns properly.  In the almost 5 years that I have been doing them, both myself and the other person (a devoted Christian) who prepares returns for clergy members have grown to almost have a disdain for ministers when it comes to taxes. 

You see, the housing allowance that they receive is an amount of their income that is designated at the beginning of the year to go towards housing which encompasses mortgage payments, property taxes, housing additions, cable TV and/or internet, cleaning supplies, windows, furniture, appliances, and even pools and their maintenance but the great part for them is that it is income tax free, and if you decide to file the nifty IRS form 4361 you receive that compensation self-employment tax free as well!  This basically results in anywhere from $10,000 to $45,000, the amounts my personal clients are paid but those amounts have no ceiling established by the IRS, being completely tax free to pay for pretty much anything besides vehicles and food and because of this, these clergy members try and wiggle any expenses that they can into the housing allowance.  I never thought I would see the day that pastors of prominent churches of hundreds and even thousands of members would try and slip their car payments or dinners at TGI Fridays under their housing allowance, but this happens with over 60-70% of my pastoral clients.  These are people who are teaching their members every Sunday to be honest, to be devout, to give your tithe as God instructed only to turn around and try to abuse a perk specific to their occupation to save a couple hundred bucks in tax on a yearly basis.  If this was something that happened once and then stopped I wouldn't care so much or be as salty about it, but seeing the same people come in year after year trying to get away with the same thing while claiming to be men of God I would be lying if I said this didn't lower my opinion of the clergy.
When the tax code gives preference to somebody for fitting into one of the numerous tax breaks available I can't blame them for taking advantage of them. The IRS has set itself up in an adversarial roles against the tax payer and there is a difference between tax avoidance and evasion. Therefore I see nothing legally wrong with trying to minimize your tax liability by inquiring whether certain deductions are allowed. I agree that some of these preferential deductions should be eliminated. We should take away corporate box seats at baseball stadiums and business deductions for recreational boats as well.The tax code is so excessively bloated that any page added to it should require the deletion of 20.

I assume however, that these people are asking you to slip in things that they know don't rightly belong there as deductions thereby breaking the law. If so, I'd be equally disgusted by that behavior although I wonder if I'm guilty of similar offenses that I sometimes justify in my business. I've been known to bend the rules and not always get a required building permit every time I should. For example, a customer needs a garbage disposer replaced. I can change one out for about $100 but if I get a permit I'd have to charge another $200 for the permit fees and extra time pulling the permit and waiting for the inspection. I justify that but it still makes me a code breaker.

How do you deal with people who ask you to violate your professional ethics and falsify their returns? If you refused to "play the game" would your employer get on you for not pleasing the client?

In dealing with the IRS on a regular basis, I think that they get the short end of the stick in representation the same way cops do, especially since their state counterparts are much worse.  Cops don't make the laws that they enforce and neither does the IRS, they both are handed the laws and obligated to enforce them so if we are going to call the IRS adversarial then we should do the same to any enforcement division of any city, State, or Federal entity.  Most people ask for respect of our police officers and I will admit they are definitely putting themselves more in harms way, but that's because the laws they enforce bring that kind of risk whereas financial enforcement rarely does, so looking down on these public servants for that seems silly.

The tax code originally allowed the housing allowance to accommodate traveling ministers and also to help small churches that otherwise wouldn't be able to have a minister in the congregation full-time.  Nowadays, traveling ministries are such a small percentage of the church compared to 50-60 years ago that the housing allowance should be at least tweaked or changed, but IMO it should be removed entirely.  The ministers must submit an amount of allowance to the church usually in November/December but sometimes later and are told by the churches what can be used for it and can't be used for it, and most denominations have handouts explaining it.  This means that most of these ministers know from the get-go what expenses are okay and which are not, and again, some of them comply right away as well but they are certainly in the minority.  In summary; they know exactly what they are doing and they are basically trying to commit tax fraud on a yearly basis which is an actual crime, opposed to a lot of things that they condemn from the pulpit.

As my profession is pretty service-oriented, you have to be careful when people try things like this.  Usually we correct them and let them know that their deduction is not allowed, if they keep trying we politely remind them again and again that it's not allowed and my clients have never went beyond that, but we have definitely fired a good amount of clients as well for various reasons but constantly trying to cheat the system is definitely one of them.  The business I work at has a few offices but we are still a small family-owned business so even though clients are treated very well, the management doesn't tolerate verbal abuse of their employees and thankfully protect us and have no problem with us telling a client to walk, even going as far as encouraging it.  Clients will flip on you in a heartbeat if they are getting audited by the IRS or another agency, so we are always reminded that we personally need to be comfortable putting our names on the returns.
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #210 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 08:07:03 »

In dealing with the IRS on a regular basis, I think that they get the short end of the stick in representation the same way cops do, especially since their state counterparts are much worse.  Cops don't make the laws that they enforce and neither does the IRS, they both are handed the laws and obligated to enforce them so if we are going to call the IRS adversarial then we should do the same to any enforcement division of any city, State, or Federal entity.  Most people ask for respect of our police officers and I will admit they are definitely putting themselves more in harms way, but that's because the laws they enforce bring that kind of risk whereas financial enforcement rarely does, so looking down on these public servants for that seems silly.

Fair enough. Thanks for reminding me of that. I shouldn't be attacking the messenger.


As my profession is pretty service-oriented, you have to be careful when people try things like this.  Usually we correct them and let them know that their deduction is not allowed, if they keep trying we politely remind them again and again that it's not allowed and my clients have never went beyond that, but we have definitely fired a good amount of clients as well for various reasons but constantly trying to cheat the system is definitely one of them.  The business I work at has a few offices but we are still a small family-owned business so even though clients are treated very well, the management doesn't tolerate verbal abuse of their employees and thankfully protect us and have no problem with us telling a client to walk, even going as far as encouraging it.  Clients will flip on you in a heartbeat if they are getting audited by the IRS or another agency, so we are always reminded that we personally need to be comfortable putting our names on the returns.

That's great. It sounds like you work for a fair and ethical firm.

Offline skycrimes

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 159
  • Location: Texas
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #211 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 12:46:51 »
You're the second former LDS missionary to comment on this thread and while there are some distinct doctrinal differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, I've had nothing but good encounters with every one I've had a pleasure to work for, with or just befriended.

I'm curious if you could make any generalizations about  people of different faith backgrounds you've interacted with in the field?

having served a mission as well - I've noticed a few things from being in LA.

IDK how specific this was to me but in dealing with latino/hispanic catholics (I was in a majority Spanish speaking area), I noticed they tended to accept everything we said with almost no hesitation. I'm not sure if that's because I was still learning Spanish or because they didn't care and were just being polite. It was interesting being at a Catholics home with all the religious decorations they had. I mean as soon as they opened their doors you could instantly tell what religion they were.

With the baptists, they also accepted a lot of what we said to be "good" but not necessarily true/accepted. Most Baptists I encountered also seemed to be much more involved/knowledgeable in their doctrine than other religions we met (besides Jehovas witness - they knew their stuff).

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #212 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 19:09:43 »
You're the second former LDS missionary to comment on this thread and while there are some distinct doctrinal differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, I've had nothing but good encounters with every one I've had a pleasure to work for, with or just befriended.

I'm curious if you could make any generalizations about  people of different faith backgrounds you've interacted with in the field?

My experience sounds similar to skycrimes' for the most part. Most Filipinos are Catholic, and they were happy to listen to our lessons, and many believed (or said they believed) what we were teaching more or less immediately. I also wondered how much of this willingness to engage was due to the novelty of Americans speaking their local language.

Something we ran into a lot was people who would accept everything we said, but had no interest in getting baptized and joining the LDS church. This was really puzzling at the time. A phrase we heard a lot was "I was born Catholic, and I'll die Catholic". Lots of others who believed us and wanted to get baptized were afraid of their families' reactions.

Non-Catholics were often antagonistic toward us. Sometimes we'd run into other missionaries from various Baptist churches, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh-day Adventists. There's also a homegrown Christian church there called Iglesia ni Cristo which clearly trained its membership on how to Bible-bash with Mormon missionaries. There was definitely a sense that we were all competing to convert the Catholics. I can only remember encountering one or two atheists, and I don't recall anyone who was part of a non-Christian faith tradition.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #213 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 20:18:49 »
That's interesting that the Catholics seemed accepting. I wonder if it has to do with the lower level of training the average Catholic receives. I have found that their belief is based more on acceptance of authority of the Church than rational consideration. This is not a put down. In fact, it was the Catholic Church that traditionally produced more scholarly works in the last few centuries. It just wasn't as widely dispersed to the pews as Protestant doctrines. I think the shift began to occur in the 60's and 70's, when a trend toward Protestant scholarship began taking hold. Now majors in philosophy, apologetics, and comparative world views are quite popular at Protestant colleges and seminaries.

Thanks both of you for the insights into your experience. I did a major remodel for a very nice LDS family and we had a few talks about their missionary experiences. I think the most memorable thing the husband told me was when he asked an Elder if it was worth sending them out because he didn't feel that they were very effective. The Elder responded saying that a main reason they are sent out is to teach them humility.  I found that very interesting.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #214 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 13:41:55 »
That's interesting that the Catholics seemed accepting. I wonder if it has to do with the lower level of training the average Catholic receives. I have found that their belief is based more on acceptance of authority of the Church than rational consideration. This is not a put down. In fact, it was the Catholic Church that traditionally produced more scholarly works in the last few centuries. It just wasn't as widely dispersed to the pews as Protestant doctrines. I think the shift began to occur in the 60's and 70's, when a trend toward Protestant scholarship began taking hold. Now majors in philosophy, apologetics, and comparative world views are quite popular at Protestant colleges and seminaries.

All that may be true. My take is that most Filipinos who are not Catholic have made a conscious decision to leave, and so they tend to be more invested. The non-Catholic churches (including the LDS church) also tend to focus on evangelism and actively prepare their members to defend their respective churches' beliefs. Another factor might be that the initial conversion to Christianity during the Spanish colonial period was shallow, resulting in a passive and cultural sense of Catholic identity. Catholicism in the Philippines is still very visibly mixed with pre-colonial traditions.

Just a note of interest, there's also a large Muslim population in the southern Philippines, including some radical groups operating who sometimes kidnap and ransom or kill foreign missionaries. I was assigned in the central Visayas region which is very safe, but things were tense for a while after 9/11, which happened while I was about 6 months into my field work.

Thanks both of you for the insights into your experience. I did a major remodel for a very nice LDS family and we had a few talks about their missionary experiences. I think the most memorable thing the husband told me was when he asked an Elder if it was worth sending them out because he didn't feel that they were very effective. The Elder responded saying that a main reason they are sent out is to teach them humility.  I found that very interesting.

Yep. The most valuable aspect of the church's missionary program is that it creates a body of seasoned, passionate young people who go on to form the dedicated core of the church's next generation. Mormonism requires a lot of its members, and if you don't have a critical mass of committed people, a congregation will wither and die. The convert baptisms I think, honestly, are secondary. Especially because they don't really exist in the developed world (this is probably what your client was getting at). Almost all the church's growth is happening in developing countries like the Philippines, and even there retention is horrendously difficult. While I was there, most new members were going inactive within a year. So the church gets to report hundreds of thousands of convert baptisms each year (for example, I baptized around 30 people during my 2 years, and that was a relatively low number), but they don't mention that in congregations like the ones I served in there are 600 people on the books but only 50 that come to church each week.

Cynically, the missionary program is an indoctrination mechanism. Optimistically, it is spiritual boot camp and leadership training. As I said in my initial post, I came home energized and zealous and ready to continue serving God throughout my life. It took about 10 years for that energy to peter out, and even now that I'm separated from the church, I still honor the experiences that I had and the things that I learned. My mission changed me deeply for the better and caused me to internalize ideas about humility, grace, honor, and service to others that still form the basis of how I live my life (incidentally, I think this is a microcosm for the overall evolutionary value of religion). I don't regret going even though I am angry at the church for manipulating me into doing it.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 December 2015, 13:45:33 by hashbaz »

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #215 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 16:27:19 »
I've heard that the strong and tight communities built within the Mormon Church make it especially difficult to leave. Did your whole family leave?

Words like indoctrination are funny. It means accepting something without question. While it's a word that loaded with all kinds of negative suspicions, it is hard to completely avoid during the learning process. To question every thing we hear at a Cartesian level would drastically slow down the rate of discovery. An appeal to authority, that is, to assume the accuracy of the past canon of information, is a good first, if not final, step. At some point it does become not only appropriate but necessary to scrutinize past assumptions, especially as we mature intellectually. To intentionally avoid reanalyzing our beliefs or positions, is not a lack of faith, rather, it can be a dishonest attempt to avoid confronting our suspicion that we may be wrong. 

When I think of having faith, I don't think it requires absolute certainty,  only enough certainty to be willing to trust it in your decision making. To quote Peter, "To whom shall we go, you have words of eternal life". 

Offline skycrimes

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 159
  • Location: Texas
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #216 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 11:55:10 »
Thanks both of you for the insights into your experience. I did a major remodel for a very nice LDS family and we had a few talks about their missionary experiences. I think the most memorable thing the husband told me was when he asked an Elder if it was worth sending them out because he didn't feel that they were very effective. The Elder responded saying that a main reason they are sent out is to teach them humility.  I found that very interesting.

yeah honestly I wanted to go home after a month cause I felt like I was doing absolutely nothing and also I couldn't speak the language. I was like if god wants stuff done he will replace me with someone more willing. My trainer at the time told me that church/religion isn't always about serving other people like we think it is, a lot of times its about building ourselves. So I stayed learned how to be patient and humble and had some pretty good food along the way :)


Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #217 on: Mon, 21 December 2015, 03:24:27 »
I've heard that the strong and tight communities built within the Mormon Church make it especially difficult to leave. Did your whole family leave?

It's complicated. They didn't leave with me, but they don't really attend anymore either. Leaving Mo-town is very difficult due to the all-encompassing nature of the religion. It's a culture and a part-time job and a social network and an extended family, but it doesn't have any real tolerance for disbelief like you find in for example Judaism and Catholicism. Everything is centered around acceptance of the church's doctrinal positions and adherence to its behavioral requirements.

Words like indoctrination are funny. It means accepting something without question. While it's a word that loaded with all kinds of negative suspicions, it is hard to completely avoid during the learning process. To question every thing we hear at a Cartesian level would drastically slow down the rate of discovery. An appeal to authority, that is, to assume the accuracy of the past canon of information, is a good first, if not final, step. At some point it does become not only appropriate but necessary to scrutinize past assumptions, especially as we mature intellectually. To intentionally avoid reanalyzing our beliefs or positions, is not a lack of faith, rather, it can be a dishonest attempt to avoid confronting our suspicion that we may be wrong.

The mission experience is intensely stressful and disorienting, and there's a very real sink or swim aspect to it. I think most missionaries rapidly become broken down and humble and earnestly seek help from God to make it through. Isolated from friends and family and not being allowed to do anything other than missionary work, you end up drinking deeply from the Kool-aid because there's no other way to survive. The alternative is to wash out and go home early to your disappointed family. Thoughtful ideas about epistemology dissolve pretty rapidly under these conditions. Also, the Kool-aid is ****ing fantastic, once you embrace it fully. You feel energized and fearless, guided by the spirit of God, and grateful to be his humble instrument.

Later, after you've been home for a few years and the immediate stress of being a missionary is gone, you become afraid to question orthodoxy because you've invested so much time and effort into it, not to mention your sense of identity and your family relationships. You're afraid that if you follow the rabbit down the hole, you won't be able to stay in the church, and so you ignore the rabbit. Often people are only semi-conscious of this dynamic, and it ends up producing self-deception and cognitive dissonance.

When I think of having faith, I don't think it requires absolute certainty,  only enough certainty to be willing to trust it in your decision making. To quote Peter, "To whom shall we go, you have words of eternal life". 

Yup. Faith is trust.

Offline Waateva

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1782
  • Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #218 on: Mon, 21 December 2015, 10:09:54 »
Words like indoctrination are funny. It means accepting something without question. While it's a word that loaded with all kinds of negative suspicions, it is hard to completely avoid during the learning process. To question every thing we hear at a Cartesian level would drastically slow down the rate of discovery. An appeal to authority, that is, to assume the accuracy of the past canon of information, is a good first, if not final, step. At some point it does become not only appropriate but necessary to scrutinize past assumptions, especially as we mature intellectually. To intentionally avoid reanalyzing our beliefs or positions, is not a lack of faith, rather, it can be a dishonest attempt to avoid confronting our suspicion that we may be wrong.

The mission experience is intensely stressful and disorienting, and there's a very real sink or swim aspect to it. I think most missionaries rapidly become broken down and humble and earnestly seek help from God to make it through. Isolated from friends and family and not being allowed to do anything other than missionary work, you end up drinking deeply from the Kool-aid because there's no other way to survive. The alternative is to wash out and go home early to your disappointed family. Thoughtful ideas about epistemology dissolve pretty rapidly under these conditions. Also, the Kool-aid is ****ing fantastic, once you embrace it fully. You feel energized and fearless, guided by the spirit of God, and grateful to be his humble instrument.

Later, after you've been home for a few years and the immediate stress of being a missionary is gone, you become afraid to question orthodoxy because you've invested so much time and effort into it, not to mention your sense of identity and your family relationships. You're afraid that if you follow the rabbit down the hole, you won't be able to stay in the church, and so you ignore the rabbit. Often people are only semi-conscious of this dynamic, and it ends up producing self-deception and cognitive dissonance.

In reference to the feeling after the missionary period, this seems to be a very common period spanning religions in general.  When you have a tough time in your life that you depend nearly completely on the God of the religion you are following it, people seem to be very content and even invigorated as you have "given it up to God" and you have no doubt that God has it taken care of.  After that almost honeymoonish period, you can start to question the things that you had previously looked over or had just disregarded as not important and that forces you to at least do something about it.  Some people will definitely resort to continuing to overlook this information, some may question it internally but never doing so openly, and some will in fact question it openly and either not get the answers they wanted probably resulting in them leaving their sect or they will indeed get the answers they were looking for and stay put.  This of course is much more messy than just picking an option A or option B, as like you said there is so much more attached to your beliefs, especially for LDS members, than just the doctrine itself.  Having to say goodbye to your friends, your family, your job and home in some situations, all of these things can make this decision much more complicated than a simple doctrine issue.

I recently was talking to a friend of mine who, along with his wife, have told their very conservative Christian parents that they are atheists.  His parents took it way better than I would have imagined, but there is obviously some stress on the relationship between them and even among his other family members like his brothers and sisters.  Now, my friend seems to be able to carry on decent conversations about doctrine, the accuracy of the bible, faith, and things like this with his father but his mother had wanted to engage in some of those as well albeit over email.  One of the topics his mother had picked to discuss was evolution, and my friend found out in the first response from his mother that she really was not going to be open to anything he might have to say, as she flatly responded to one of his questions with "I am confident in my faith as well as in the bible, so if your information doesn't line up with that I'm not interested in reading any of it."  He quickly realized that anything he said would just go in one ear and out of the other ear, so he wrapped it up and moved onto a different topic.

My point of sharing this is that when people have invested years and years of their lives into believing something, religious or not, the consequences of changing even small parts of that belief can seem overwhelming. 
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6473
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #219 on: Mon, 21 December 2015, 10:18:50 »

"I am confident in my faith as well as in the bible, so if your information doesn't line up with that I'm not interested in reading any of it."  He quickly realized that anything he said would just go in one ear and out of the other ear, so he wrapped it up and moved onto a different topic.

My point of sharing this is that when people have invested years and years of their lives into believing something, religious or not, the consequences of changing even small parts of that belief can seem overwhelming. 


This is pretty much the nut of the entire situation.

The whole "creation" thing is pretty much all-or-nothing and kludges like "intelligent design" are just clutching at straws.

"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
Do you feel the breeze? I don't want anybody going on me. We need every voter. I don't care about you. I just want your vote. I don't care."
- Donald Trump - Las Vegas 2024-06-09

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #220 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 18:31:38 »

I recently was talking to a friend of mine who, along with his wife, have told their very conservative Christian parents that they are atheists.  His parents took it way better than I would have imagined, but there is obviously some stress on the relationship between them and even among his other family members like his brothers and sisters.  Now, my friend seems to be able to carry on decent conversations about doctrine, the accuracy of the bible, faith, and things like this with his father but his mother had wanted to engage in some of those as well albeit over email.  One of the topics his mother had picked to discuss was evolution, and my friend found out in the first response from his mother that she really was not going to be open to anything he might have to say, as she flatly responded to one of his questions with "I am confident in my faith as well as in the bible, so if your information doesn't line up with that I'm not interested in reading any of it."  He quickly realized that anything he said would just go in one ear and out of the other ear, so he wrapped it up and moved onto a different topic.

My point of sharing this is that when people have invested years and years of their lives into believing something, religious or not, the consequences of changing even small parts of that belief can seem overwhelming. 

I made the same point a while back about peoples resistance to allowing their beliefs to be threatened, however in the case of this mother, it may possibly be something else. Not all people are wired to enjoy or appreciate a logical discussion. Their choices and beliefs about most things are based on reasons that are not primarily intellectually appraised. They are the people that tend to like to talk about events rather than ideas. I think a lot of people are like that, maybe the majority. They are the ones that will vote for a candidate based on a smile or an aura rather than their policies. Nothing wrong with that. It can be frustrating though, for those of us who like to probe and dissect every topic or decision.
 

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 992
Re: Religion Therapy
« Reply #221 on: Sat, 02 January 2016, 23:06:33 »
Some time ago I made a reference to a statement made by Richard Dawkins. I was fairly called out for not having given an exact quote or reference. (See posts 107-109 this thread) While I was unable to find the lecture I cited, this one makes an abridged but somewhat similar claim, less the cheers and shouts of adulation from the audience. The fact that he repeats the jest of it seems to indicate that it wasn't a one time misstatement but something that he not only believes but thinks a convincing argument.


"Even a deistic god would still have to be exactly the kind of thing that we've spent our lives explaining and have gone a long way toward succeeding. Intelligence, whether it's godlike or anything else, intelligence comes late in the universe.  Intelligence comes at the end of a long process of evolution." Richard Dawkins in a conversation with Lawrence Kraus on Feb. 4, 2012 entitled "Something From Nothing" 1:02:00-1:03:00

It never seems to occur to Professor Dawkins that a non-physical, transcendent being who created the universe, might not necessarily be subject to the laws of Darwinian evolution.