Author Topic: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps  (Read 18491 times)

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Offline voodoo6k

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[IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 11:56:29 »


You can help generate interest by voting: https://drop.com/vote/GMK-ThinkCaps

Hi all!

Introducing GMK ThinkCaps (formerly GMK Think). This project completes a trifecta of classic devices that still did not have their own keyset (with DSA Scientific and MT3 SNES).

ThinkCaps is based on the ThinkPad and IBM/Lenovo multimedia keyboards. It features the iconic Big Blue Enter key and a subdued white on black/grey colourway. I had been working on this set for a while when @Croktopus posted the GMK Think IC earlier this year. We decided to join our efforts to bring you the widest range of options.

Notable features:
  • All-in-one TKL base set (incl. 2u/1u Shift, split BS, Nav column)
  • A more complete Ortho & 40's kit (maybe standalone)
  • A more complete Numpad kit
  • Minila, split/ortho support with 3u spacebar!
  • Parallel group buy of RGBW add-on kit (akin to GMK RGBYK Add-on Kit)
  • Multimedia keys
  • Accent-only kit (for WoB owners)


Contents

Kits


  • Covers TKL, 75%, 65% and 60% keyboards
  • Tsangan option, 2.25u/2u/1.75u/1u Shifts, split Backspace, Nav column, etc.


  • Extension kit for orthogonal and 40% keyboards
  • R3 Tab/Ctrl/Enter, 2.75u/2.25u/2u/1.75u/1u Spaces, MiniVan modifiers, etc.
  • If you are interested by this kit, please fill out the Ortho & 40's kit form.


  • Complete numpad kit (rare for GMK sets!)



  • Icon modifiers (also compatible with OG Dolch and other N9 GMK sets)
  • Windows keys, 1.5u Meta (◇) keys, ISO-UK support


  • RGB modifiers (also compatible with a plethora of other GMK sets)
  • Fits many layouts, including ortho and 40%; icon and icon+text


  • Features Dots (a @Biip design) ~TrackPoint style~
  • Media keys for your full-size board, 96-key or macro


  • Spacebars for Cherry G80-1800, HHKB and small keyboards
  • Perfect for adding colour to your set


  • By popular demand... accents only. For WoB, Hiragana, Dolch or any other keyset.
  • If you are interested by this kit, please fill out the Accent kit form.


  • First ever GMK support for Minila! (Subject to being divided to TKL/Spacebars)
  • Add-on for Minila, split spacebar, ortho boards, etc.


Renders

Filco Majestouch with TEX case


Doro67


Filco Minila Air


TKC1800


HHKB and RAMA M10



(Above) Prime_E and Ducky Pocket

OLKB Preonic and Planck




(Above) OTD Koala


Specs
  • Doubleshot ABS
  • Cherry profile (112344)
  • Manufactured by GMK electronic design GmbH in Germany
Colour codes:
  • Alphas: CR, CP legends
  • Modifiers: N9, Custom, CP legends
  • RGB modifiers: P3, N7, V4, CP legends
  • Accent kit only: Custom, WS1 legends

Samples (photo is underexposed)



Forms

These literally take less than 30 seconds to fill out. If you are interested by:



Links

Please leave your comments down below! You can support this project by adding the following BB code to your signature:

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« Last Edit: Wed, 27 May 2020, 14:27:18 by voodoo6k »

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 11:57:09 »
This is where I write more stuff...

Offline mydens

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:01:30 »
dark and depressing.

Offline falzm

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:02:37 »
I'm in for the accents and spacebars kits.

Offline Iredeus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:04:01 »
It would be cool if you could get the caps that have room cut out for the trackpoint: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3272

Tex had them made for the Yoda, which means the moulds should exist. This would be the perfect GMK set for Yoda and Shinobi owners

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:04:56 »
dark and depressing.

I was hoping for a more optimistic first comment... :))

Offline _rubik

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:08:04 »
Fun idea! Too bad it won't cover the Tex Shinobi. Then again, nothing will cover the Shinobi without a little creativity and a dremel....

Offline ddnomad

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:12:05 »
Looks neat. Subscribed for updates :)

Offline syberghost

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:31:55 »
dark and depressing.

But in a good way.
yes, I'm the guy who put box jades on a Polaris

Offline Croktopus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:36:28 »
ahh im excited

Offline diddykang

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:38:30 »
looks cool!

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:39:26 »
ahh im excited
Yeah. Great work crokto. And awesome handoff. Excited to see this come about.

Offline BapoDonu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:47:17 »
Nice onee

Offline kokugatsu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:48:17 »
Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda



I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are

Online pikku-allu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:18:21 »
Nice set, but those renders man! Best ones I've seen so far, you made them yourself?
HHKB Type-S JP | TGR-910 SE/RE | TGR Alice | MIRA SE

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:25:43 »
Thanks for including R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn. Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

The R1 End and PgDn keys can be moved from the base kit to the numpad kit, since they are always used only on layouts that have numpads (1800, CP, 96-key).

Optionally, you could also move R1 1u Backspace, the second R4 1u Ctrl and the second R4 1u Alt to the ortho & 40s kit. The reason being that you almost never see 1u Backspace on ≥60% nowadays (you can add a copy to the Minila kit, since that keyboard uses it); no modern ≥60% layout uses 2× 1u Ctrl; and the second 1u Alt isn't needed for ≥60% because there are no 1.5u Code keys in the base kit. Alternatively, you can keep the second 1u Alt and add a 1.5u Code, which together with the 1.5u Fn can be used to cover Mac and OG-style HHKB bottom rows.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:34:27 by konstantin »
thank you for coming to my ted talk


Offline sourmk

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:32:29 »
Some ridiculously solid work in here, wow.

Offline wholypantalones

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:32:56 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:42:08 by wholypantalones »

Offline Damonskv

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:34:35 »
Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:35:09 »
Nice set, but those renders man! Best ones I've seen so far, you made them yourself?

Thank you! Yes, I made these renders. :)

Offline ab042896

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:37:33 »
The kit selection is superb, very exciting  :D

Offline scoopbb

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:39:05 »
awesome 40s support. im down for either.

Offline NathanAlphaMan

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:43:18 »
Nice set, but those renders man! Best ones I've seen so far, you made them yourself?

Ditto, I thought they were pictures at first. Stunning work!

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:44:19 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...

Offline mta

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:46:31 »
Very cool
Collection (a * denotes either keyset or board coming SoonTM), the More button expands.

More




Offline VXQN

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:52:17 »
Love this. A lot. My only issue is that to get Alpha coloured split spacebars (2.25, 1.25, 2.75u all convex) you have to purchase the 40s kit and the minila kit. Would be nicer if only one kit was necessary (and ideally a small one at that!) Maybe put split alpha-coloured bars in the spacebar kit?

Offline Pylon

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:05:45 »

Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?

I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.



Come to think of it, neither did Cherry - every OG Cherry double-shot set I've seen (even ones that have icon-only mods) has text-only on numpad enter.

Offline Rayndalf

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:07:19 »
If getting the near trackpoint keys precut isn't possible you could consider just including an extra of those key so that others who attempt the modification can still cover a normal board later. Of course these are reasonably standard colors.

Offline scoopbb

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:15:10 »
in the 40s kit the render shows R2 for the 1.75u enters and tab. should say R3

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:18:37 »
in the 40s kit the render shows R2 for the 1.75u enters and tab. should say R3

Fixed.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:19:47 »
Come to think of it, neither did Cherry - every OG Cherry double-shot set I've seen (even ones that have icon-only mods) has text-only on numpad enter.

Correct, and almost every other mass production keyboard.

Offline hkiri

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:40:19 »
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:49:38 »
Nice.

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 15:08:05 »
Nice kit and even more nice of you providing a low cost accent only kit for existing blacks in use. Very few GB's leaders are so considered. Unfortunately.

Offline oldcat

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 15:41:48 »
Looks like two thinkcaps projects are merged. Continue to love this set!

Offline vheissu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 17:18:54 »
dark and depressing.
Just how I like it.

Definitely an instant buy, great work!

Offline RETURNISO

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 17:50:45 »
Noice combined update :thumb: Stock colors, thank you  :-*

+1 OG icon mods

Offline IMZO

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 18:09:40 »
Nice concept!, looks promising!

Offline 1391401

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:26:47 »
as a thinkpad fan bigly in
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Offline Biased opinion

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 22:57:01 »
Ill be in for at least a base, numpad, novelties and icon mods

Offline catamscott

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 23:29:46 »
wow, those renders are insanely good. set looks really good, going to be saving up for this one for sure  :thumb:

Offline jjexpat00

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 00:32:02 »
Fantastic renders, and really liking the suggestion of of the TrackPoint.

Offline m1gs

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 02:31:05 »
I'm in!

Offline Badmutha

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 04:21:20 »
+1 for nipple novelties and text mods, defs a buy for me

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Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 05:35:55 »
this color is nice!!!
I think the minila keys would pull even more orders  :thumb:

can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?

242073-0

I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider  ;D
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline Rohwi

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 06:44:21 »
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)

The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift

Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 09:19:44 »
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?

I gotta say that seeing the rebirth of the Wang-style Delete key in a Thinkpad-inspired set is hilarious (not that I'm complaining).

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 09:23:26 »
Given the strong historical support from Thinkpad keyboards for ANSI, ISO and ANSISO physical layout variants in their keyboard lines, the "ISO" keys ought to be present in the base kit, I think (vertical "ISO" Enter, 1.25U left Shift, R3 \| and R4 <>). Sticking the (UK-only) ISO support to a separate kit doesn't come off as a good idea, IMHO.


BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 10:58:59 »
Given the strong historical support from Thinkpad keyboards for ANSI, ISO and ANSISO physical layout variants in their keyboard lines, the "ISO" keys ought to be present in the base kit, I think (vertical "ISO" Enter, 1.25U left Shift, R3 \| and R4 <>). Sticking the (UK-only) ISO support to a separate kit doesn't come off as a good idea, IMHO.

I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
  • Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
  • ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?

I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.

BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p

What's better?

Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.

It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:07:12 »
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)

The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift

Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?

Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.

Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:11:56 »

can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider  ;D

Is there any?

Offline dallman5

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:23:55 »
BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p

What's better?


Personally, I think the OG icon mods look better. 
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:31:17 »
Nice kit and even more nice of you providing a low cost accent only kit for existing blacks in use. Very few GB's leaders are so considered. Unfortunately.

Thank you.

It was actually @Croktopus who put some mild pressure on me to included it. I felt the same way after re-reading the Think IC.

I don't think it will hurt the GB to include them. After all, it's called a "group buy" (and not a pre-order) for a reason. If that's what people want, then so be it.

Offline Rohwi

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:36:03 »
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)

The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift

Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?

Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.

Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?

I was thinking about adding the missing keys as Icon Mods.
The base set right now only has a "Ctrl" key, but there is no Icon variant to replace the Ctrl key. The Icon Mod Set contains the classics, "icon only" Shift, Win key etc.
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set:
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:39:20 by Rohwi »

Offline DoItForTheThocks

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:46:57 »
I'd be interested in the novelties!

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:03:51 »
Thanks for including R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn. Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

The R1 End and PgDn keys can be moved from the base kit to the numpad kit, since they are always used only on layouts that have numpads (1800, CP, 96-key).

Optionally, you could also move R1 1u Backspace, the second R4 1u Ctrl and the second R4 1u Alt to the ortho & 40s kit. The reason being that you almost never see 1u Backspace on ≥60% nowadays (you can add a copy to the Minila kit, since that keyboard uses it); no modern ≥60% layout uses 2× 1u Ctrl; and the second 1u Alt isn't needed for ≥60% because there are no 1.5u Code keys in the base kit. Alternatively, you can keep the second 1u Alt and add a 1.5u Code, which together with the 1.5u Fn can be used to cover Mac and OG-style HHKB bottom rows.

RE: ISO; still undecided!

You are right about moving the End and PgDn to Numpad. I put them in Base to offset the cost of the Numpad kit, but logically they should be in there.

Since there is no Extension/Specialty kit for this one (and Ortho & 40's may become a standalone set), we cannot move too many keys out of Base. I aimed at a complete 60%+ set (2u Shift and so on), and because I was specifically asked for a split (1u) backspace in the MT3 SNES IC, I figured we should include it here as well.

You are also correct about the number of 1u Ctrl/Alt keys in Base. The issue is that I'm not really a fan of the "Code" keys, therefore I removed the two 1.5u Codes from Base in favour of the 1.5u Meta (◇) in Icon mods.

That being said, the main reason for leaving the extra 1u Ctrl and Alt keys in Base is to again offset the cost of the Ortho & 40's extension. If we go with a standalone Ortho & 40's set, then we could remove (at least) the extra 1u Ctrl.

Hopefully this reply if not too confusing. ;D

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:11:37 »
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)

The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift

Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?

Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.

Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?

I was thinking about adding the missing keys as Icon Mods.
The base set right now only has a "Ctrl" key, but there is no Icon variant to replace the Ctrl key. The Icon Mod Set contains the classics, "icon only" Shift, Win key etc.
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set:
Show Image


Okay, I see what you mean. Something more like this (from GMK Burgundy):



I will consider it if we remove ISO from the Icon mods, but I want to keep the price down.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:15:38 »
I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
  • Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
  • ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?

I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.

While I get the reasoning behind not including ISO Enter in base because it's icon-only (I think that's pretty smart), you also have to keep in mind that “forcing” 4 keys in the base kit has a much smaller relative impact on pricing than the current setup (in other words, the larger the kit, the smaller the price per key).

Whereas putting the 4 ISO keys in base would result in a $2 increase to the kit's price (number taken from actual GMK quotes where I did this for a similarly sized base kit), the current setup forces ISO users to also purchase $40–$50 worth of icon mods to get the keys that they need to be able to use their boards. In other words, you are effectively discouraging most ISO users from buying the set at all.

(Disclaimer: I'm not an ISO user, I just like to see kiting done in a sensible and considerate manner.)

Side note: The same logic could be applied to the R1 End, PgDn keys, which are only used by numpad users, and numpad kits also sell fairly poorly (see Dvorcol's numpad take rate stats for GMK sets). So they shouldn't be forced on everyone either, if you want to look at it that way.

Anyway, your idea of putting the 4 basic ISO keys in a NorDe kit is slightly better, but still isn't great for pretty much the same reasons as above. Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.


BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot.

What's better?

For what it's worth, I think IBM ThinkPads always used vertically centered icons for their icon-only keys, whereas some models under Lenovo went with the top-left (OG) approach.
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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:23:16 »
RE: ISO; still undecided!

You are right about moving the End and PgDn to Numpad. I put them in Base to offset the cost of the Numpad kit, but logically they should be in there.

Since there is no Extension/Specialty kit for this one (and Ortho & 40's may become a standalone set), we cannot move too many keys out of Base. I aimed at a complete 60%+ set (2u Shift and so on), and because I was specifically asked for a split (1u) backspace in the MT3 SNES IC, I figured we should include it here as well.

You are also correct about the number of 1u Ctrl/Alt keys in Base. The issue is that I'm not really a fan of the "Code" keys, therefore I removed the two 1.5u Codes from Base in favour of the 1.5u Meta (◇) in Icon mods.

That being said, the main reason for leaving the extra 1u Ctrl and Alt keys in Base is to again offset the cost of the Ortho & 40's extension. If we go with a standalone Ortho & 40's set, then we could remove (at least) the extra 1u Ctrl.

Hopefully this reply if not too confusing. ;D

Sorry for the double post, I'm on mobile and I didn't see your reply before posting mine.

Your reply makes sense! So does offsetting the cost of the other kits. As long as you've taken everything into consideration, and decided to keep those keys in base anyway, I'm happy :) But please consider doing the same, i.e. offsetting the cost for ISO users as well.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:43:29 by konstantin »
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:27:09 »
I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
  • Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
  • ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?

I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.

While I get the reasoning behind not including ISO Enter in base because it's icon-only (I think that's pretty smart), you also have to keep in mind that “forcing” 4 keys in the base kit has a much smaller relative impact on pricing than the current setup (in other words, the larger the kit, the smaller the price per key).

Whereas putting the 4 ISO keys in base would result in a $2 increase to the kit's price (number taken from actual GMK quotes where I did this for a similarly sized base kit), the current setup forces ISO users to also purchase $40–$50 worth of icon mods to get the keys that they need to be able to use their boards. In other words, you are effectively discouraging most ISO users from buying the set at all.

(Disclaimer: I'm not an ISO user, I just like to see kiting done in a sensible and considerate manner.)

Side note: The same logic could be applied to the R1 End, PgDn keys, which are only used by numpad users, and numpad kits also sell fairly poorly (see Dvorcol's numpad take rate stats for GMK sets). So they shouldn't be forced on everyone either, if you want to look at it that way.

Anyway, your idea of putting the 4 basic ISO keys in a NorDe kit is slightly better, but still isn't great for pretty much the same reasons as above. Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

I'm not really happy either with the current placement of the ISO keys.

I think the reason why GMK numpads don't sell currently is because they are incomplete, ie. setup for full-size/1800/96-key boards and not actual separate numpads.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:00:55 »

I'm not really happy either with the current placement of the ISO keys.

Good, 'cause it's really not a good placement.

As konstantin said, the best option is to place the four needed keys in the base set. You can even choose just the one vertical Enter key, to avoid having two of them there (for this particular set, the accent Enter is the obvious choice).


I think the reason why GMK numpads don't sell currently is because they are incomplete, ie. setup for full-size/1800/96-key boards and not actual separate numpads.

What are you missing? Other than the R1/R0 Esc/Tab/=/Backspace keys that several companies place on the numbads they offer, I can't think of other stuff that's missing from extant independent numpads.

Offline hkiri

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:06:08 »
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.

It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D

Really sad to hear this. That destroys the whole compatibility with already existing sets (WoB in this case) for me.
But well, that's the ISO-life...

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:41:27 »
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.

It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D

Really sad to hear this. That destroys the whole compatibility with already existing sets (WoB in this case) for me.
But well, that's the ISO-life...

We'll add the text-icon ISO Enter to the Accent kit, given that it fits into the voted budget.

As of now, the weighted average budget for the Accent kit is $24.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:59:59 »
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

Do you have a reference for this layout?


Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 14:29:11 »
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

Do you have a reference for this layout?

Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS

Thanks. I had genuinely never seen it before.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 15:23:59 »
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

Do you have a reference for this layout?

Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS

Oh, it's your page! Sorry, I'm out of the loop.

I actually came across your "Why do keycap sets have so many copies of the backslash-pipe key?" page on Google once and thought it was quite funny. :))

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #67 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 16:12:22 »
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).

Do you have a reference for this layout?

Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS

Oh, it's your page! Sorry, I'm out of the loop.

I actually came across your "Why do keycap sets have so many copies of the backslash-pipe key?" page on Google once and thought it was quite funny. :))

I'll take that as a compliment. :)

Offline enrique.aliaga

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 18:47:59 »
Hey voodoo and Croktopus,

First of all, thanks so much for moving forward with this great idea for a set!!

I’ve got some concerns with the new proposal of an “Accents” kit.

The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC. They are enclosed in red rectangles in the attached image.



I think these keys would really make the Accents a much better buy for WoB owners such as myself. When used alongside WoB, they make any keyboard more closely resemble the original Thinkpad keyboard. Remember several keys on Thinkpads had blue secondary legends. The missing keys would really complete the package.

Is there any chance to include those keys in the Accents kit?


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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 20:16:51 »
Hey voodoo and Croktopus,

First of all, thanks so much for moving forward with this great idea for a set!!

I’ve got some concerns with the new proposal of an “Accents” kit.

The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC. They are enclosed in red rectangles in the attached image.

Show Image


I think these keys would really make the Accents a much better buy for WoB owners such as myself. When used alongside WoB, they make any keyboard more closely resemble the original Thinkpad keyboard. Remember several keys on Thinkpads had blue secondary legends. The missing keys would really complete the package.

Is there any chance to include those keys in the Accents kit?


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Hey, thanks for raising the issue. I know Crokto wanted to bring it up as well.

The main problem is that the custom accent colour is too dark to provide enough contrast with CR and N9. It's pretty much the same colour intensity as N9. On black it could work, although not ideal.

For example, even on the Thinkpad keyboard, they use a lighter blue colour for the legends. There is no real stock colour alternative, the closest being V4 and DY. Adding a second custom colour is impossible because those legends won't account for enough plastic material.

Lastly, depending on the survey, the average budget for the accent kit is going to be around $20~25, so we'll have to pick and choose what's in it. Of course, we could always add those keys to the novelties or icon mods. If enough people are onboard with the blue/purple legends (either V4 or DY), we can try to figure something out.

Personally, I prefer the blue Fn, spacebars and Esc keys because they're more uniform. I will try to make a composite picture of the blue legends on the actual GMK samples, to illustrate my point.

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 21:12:41 »
The accent kit has just the right keys at the right price  (hopefully). Don't mess with it.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 21:56:35 »

can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider  ;D

Is there any?

yes,
Duck TC-V3
Timber Wolf (from Croktopus)

do you believe me if I say I have the urge to create a board which include this key?  :D
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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 11 May 2020, 22:14:51 »

can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider  ;D

Is there any?

yes,
Duck TC-V3
Timber Wolf (from Croktopus)

do you believe me if I say I have the urge to create a board which include this key?  :D

I do have the temptation of building, for shirts and gingers, a TKL with a Wang-style Delete key, with Insert moved to either the "F13" position or to the right of the split right Shift, and then make all kinds of jokes about "playing with my wang". Mr. Wang of Wang Laboratories joked about it himself, so I think we should carry on with his legacy.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Online LightningXI

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps (incl. RGBW mods and more...)
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 01:10:42 »
Very neat! OG style WoB alphas and Dolch modifiers in one.

Love the choice of CP for the legends rather than WS1.
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Offline Croktopus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 03:21:11 »
The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC.

voodoo's reply pretty much covers it. We're looking into some v4 on black options while keeping budget in mind. something I'm considering is killing the escape key to fit in more authentic keycaps, if it comes down to that. however, the f keys and arrow keys aren't gonna work out - they were more like auxiliary keys in the first place to fill out the kit and try to provide a slightly better value by adding significantly more keycaps for hopefully not significantly more money (before i realized how impractical the add on kit was in the first place), but now i'd like to re-orient it towards being as faithful as reasonable towards the original, whereas people that want a good looking keycap set with thinkpad vibes can get the base kit!

« Last Edit: Tue, 12 May 2020, 03:23:55 by Croktopus »

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 10:02:55 »
Love this. A lot. My only issue is that to get Alpha coloured split spacebars (2.25, 1.25, 2.75u all convex) you have to purchase the 40s kit and the minila kit. Would be nicer if only one kit was necessary (and ideally a small one at that!) Maybe put split alpha-coloured bars in the spacebar kit?

Just curious, what board/layout is it for?

Nevermind. I'm taking note.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 May 2020, 22:47:22 by voodoo6k »

Offline Myoth

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 16:27:37 »
I'm very interested in this, but I need to know, for the Accent kit, and the RGB kit, are the icons centered ?

non-centered certainly is better for compatibility with other sets, WoB for exemple

Offline William_S_Jones

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 21:02:34 »
[mention]voodoo6k [/mention]
Love it & hope that 40% specific kit w/ alphas & mods included makes it b/c I'll buy it. Then I'll just need the numberpad kit. EVERYONE PLEASE VOTE THE 40% SPECIFIC IN!!!!!


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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #78 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 21:28:25 »
I'm very interested in this, but I need to know, for the Accent kit, and the RGB kit, are the icons centered ?

non-centered certainly is better for compatibility with other sets, WoB for exemple

The icon Shift and Caps lock keys will be in the old style, off-center. Sorry the renders don't reflect this, I will correct them eventually.

Unless I am mistaken, the Accent kit is not affect by the centered icons?

[mention]voodoo6k [/mention]
Love it & hope that 40% specific kit w/ alphas & mods included makes it b/c I'll buy it. Then I'll just need the numberpad kit. EVERYONE PLEASE VOTE THE 40% SPECIFIC IN!!!!!


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Awesome :)

Offline apejonk

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 05:17:27 »
I like it!
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Offline jouz

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 07:45:43 »
Would join just to get my hands on a 3u spacebar!

Offline kidviddy

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 08:39:16 »
Would join just to get my hands on a 3u spacebar!

Yes! That’s kind of why I’m here too ;-)

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 08:56:47 »
I suggest to ask GMK for samples of the icon mods (particularly the Enter keys) when the order has been submitted. Just to assure that the long arrow molds have been fixed.

Offline NMZS

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #83 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:07:34 »
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set
Yes pls! Offering a set as a compliment to GMK WoB would be awesome and an instant buy from me. I already own the candykeys WoB version and would love to be able to "spice it up" (which feels weird to say given this is thinkpad-inspired :P) without spending a ton on a full set where most of the keys are duplicates of ones I already own.

Offline gfreeman11898

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #84 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:31:59 »
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).

I just remembered I already have this set in WS1,  ;D
242436-0
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:59:00 by gfreeman11898 »

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 10:51:19 »
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).

I just remembered I already have this set in WS1,  ;D
(Attachment Link)

This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.

First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.

Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.

Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.

Hopefully this clears things up.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #86 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:00:36 »
I suggest to ask GMK for samples of the icon mods (particularly the Enter keys) when the order has been submitted. Just to assure that the long arrow molds have been fixed.

I'll be frank, I'm not aware of the situation... I thought it was only about the Shift symbols. Do you have any pictures showing the difference between the Enter keys?

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #87 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:00:45 »
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).

I just remembered I already have this set in WS1,  ;D
(Attachment Link)

This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.

First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.

Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.

Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.

Hopefully this clears things up.
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here. I respect your choice tho.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:03:40 by equalunique »

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:03:33 »
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).

I just remembered I already have this set in WS1,  ;D
(Attachment Link)

This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.

First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.

Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.

Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.

Hopefully this clears things up.
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here.

Sorry. That's why we provide the accent kit.

Edit: You can refer to this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99984.msg2766769#msg2766769
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:05:21 by voodoo6k »

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #89 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:08:45 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #90 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:14:50 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #91 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:29:24 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preffered combo.

Offline gfreeman11898

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #92 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 13:21:04 »
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).

I just remembered I already have this set in WS1,  ;D
(Attachment Link)

This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.

First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.

Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.

Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.

Hopefully this clears things up.
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here.

Sorry. That's why we provide the accent kit.

Edit: You can refer to this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99984.msg2766769#msg2766769

If you're not a perfectionist, WS1 and CP are very similar to the naked eye. I'm extra careful when handling Originative Dolch (WS1) and Kekkon Dolch (CP). I appreciate the OG style of this set, most likely will pick up with a couple of add-ons.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #93 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 15:55:49 »
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set
Yes pls! Offering a set as a compliment to GMK WoB would be awesome and an instant buy from me. I already own the candykeys WoB version and would love to be able to "spice it up" (which feels weird to say given this is thinkpad-inspired :P) without spending a ton on a full set where most of the keys are duplicates of ones I already own.

It is unlikely at this point, however you can get both RGB + Icons for a complete (60%) mod set. That would spice it up quite nicely!

I edited the kit renders to reflect the actual icon positions.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2020, 16:01:06 by voodoo6k »

Offline RETURNISO

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 16:26:04 »

I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.

Please consider the NorDe / International kit :thumb:

Nice with the OG icons update, lovely :cool:


Offline andr01d

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 17:01:21 »
Imagine a set of these that fit a Model M13

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #96 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 19:49:41 »

Offline fatpolomanjr

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #97 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 21:29:47 »
Heck yeah. I've cannibalized some WoB double shots and ePBT BoW caps to cut and grind out those trackpoint holes. An extra set of G/H/B keys that are pre-punched would be amazing. I'll have to find my IBM stickers again:



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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #98 on: Wed, 13 May 2020, 22:26:32 »

Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?

I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.

For that matter, the numpad on IBM keyboards always had * and / (instead of Cherry's × and ÷ symbols).

Offline spakecdk

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #99 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 08:10:11 »
Two humble requests: adding US-ISO to the ISO kit, and the more important one:

since you are trying to capture the old school feel, imo the old numpad icons ("/" and "*") would be better suited for this set.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #100 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:20:53 »

Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?

I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.

For that matter, the numpad on IBM keyboards always had * and / (instead of Cherry's × and ÷ symbols).

Two humble requests: adding US-ISO to the ISO kit, and the more important one:

since you are trying to capture the old school feel, imo the old numpad icons ("/" and "*") would be better suited for this set.

I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Offline voodoo6k

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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #102 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:24:46 »
I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Have you considered using System for the OS keys? “System” on 1.25u, 1.5u, and “Sys” on 1u.
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #103 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:28:31 »
Quote
Code

Are you a cashier?  ;D

Offline enrique.aliaga

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #104 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 11:56:31 »
The set not being a faithful representation of the OG board is the reason I’m not joining this GB.

Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.


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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #105 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 13:33:56 »

I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #106 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:08:29 »

The set not being a faithful representation of the OG board is the reason I’m not joining this GB.

Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).

Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?

I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)


Here's what I wrote on DT, for anyone wondering about your ISO/vertical Enter concerns:

Quote
The main motivation behind combining the ISO and icon modifier kits was that offering both icon+text and icon-only ISO options would require 4 vertical Enter keys in total (2 blue + 2 grey) to retain compatibility with the RGB modifiers.

We decided on icon-only (for now...) because that's how IBM, Cherry and most other manufacturers did it, historically. Thus moving ISO to the icon modifier kit was logical (and helps meeting MOQ for both). In addition, moving it there allows us to include more keys such as Alt Gr, which I like seeing.

In hindsight, it does look like we're "forcing" the icon modifiers onto the international users. I'm trying to find another solution. Sorry about the bad wording, and thanks for the picture!

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #107 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:54:08 »


I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.

Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.

I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).

Everyone is entitled to its own modicum of bad taste. ;)

(but the Windows logo is still an abject, abominable sight)



Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?

They stain the set. Even if they remain unused and hidden away. This is, like, the objective & undeniable truth and stuff (YMMV).


Jokes aside, as per a proper replacement goes, I'm very strongly of the opinion of the opinion of "Anything but this!" so, indeed, most things are fine by me. As things go, I used to prefer "Meta" as the legend and ◇ as the icon version of meta, but lately I've taken a liking to konstantin's suggestion of "System"/"Sys" (just don't do that shebang thing - it tries to be cute but fails).


Also, I'm not sure if using the Windows logos STILL require a license payment to Microsoft. What if that is still the case?




I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)


Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:


I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.

Aditionally, an optional kit can add the necessary keys to support English (UK) over ISO, if there are indeed enough British users interested in the set (or, for that matter, do a Norde or a Norde UK kit, etc.).

The main thing is to not fall into the trap of supporting only English (US) over ANSI + English (UK) over ISO (or worse, only partial support for the latter).


Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:11:41 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:21:35 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)


I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.



Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #110 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:23:34 »
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me!  :cool:
[...]

So why are we arguing? :p

This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)


I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.

I will be getting a quote for a base kit that includes basic ISO-US compatibility (vertical Enter, 1.25u Shift and both R3/4 \|). That said, I'm also removing ISO-UK from the icon mods (leaving only the icon Enters).

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #111 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:41:57 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #112 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:46:35 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

No problem. I think I replied to your comment. I am not really aware of the issue, do you have any pictures of the irregular Enter keys so I can better explain it to GMK?

« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:45:41 by voodoo6k »

Offline Ensaum

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #113 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 17:54:30 »
Any chance of adding some of the novelties to the add-on pack? Specifically the blue fn keys and media keys in WS1 on CR?

Offline Pejano

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #114 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 18:56:27 »
As a ThinkPad/Minila fan from the UK, I'm totally part of this so long as the relevant kits are made. Thanks!

Are GMK actually making 3u keys now?

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:02:52 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.

Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.
  • There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
  • It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
  • The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
  • The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Too bad! GMK ABS double-shot keycaps would be a nice improvement over the Shinobi's stock Laser-foamed/ablated ones.

Offline godofdeath

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #116 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:58:40 »
Can I get a F13 key?
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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 08:05:12 »
I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:

konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?

Indeed, that's taking what I said very much out of context :) While the idea is smart when considered in isolation, in this case it does a lot more harm than good to the set, in my opinion. It's good that you asked for a quote for a base kit with the 4 basic ISO keys; that will be a good indicator of what should be done with the ISO support moving forward.


By the way, I'm not sure what this reply was in regards to:
Quote
Code

Are you a cashier?  ;D
but lmk what you think about the System/Sys suggestion.


I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.

I agree. I wrote more about this issue here. I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)
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Offline kokugatsu

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:45:52 »
I want more hack keys

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:53:34 »
Any chance of adding some of the novelties to the add-on pack? Specifically the blue fn keys and media keys in WS1 on CR?

Hi Ensaum. There won't be any blue Fn keys in the accent kit. As a solution, I suggest just getting the novelties, as the difference in legend colour is quite small.

If we add anything to the accent kit, it will be an icon+text vertical Enter (ISO), then some blue on CR Fn keys (unlikely due to the average budget).

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:54:40 »
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.

Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.

This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo with white legends.

Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex Yoda

Show Image


I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Got the same idea, so +1

No promises, but we can look into this...
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.

For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.

For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.

Shinobi is not possible.

As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.

I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.

Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.
  • There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
  • It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
  • The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
  • The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Too bad! GMK ABS double-shot keycaps would be a nice improvement over the Shinobi's stock Laser-foamed/ablated ones.

Thanks for the info!

Offline andr01d

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #121 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 16:47:04 »
Imagine a set of these that fit a Model M13

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102826.0

While this is a nice keyboard, its not exactly what I meant. The M13 has a trackpoint. I currently use a Unicomp with the trackpoint, and would love an IBM themed keyset to fit the buckling spring switches. Even if I had to dremmel a couple of the keycaps to fit the trackpoint.

Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 17:08:09 »
yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #123 on: Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:40:10 »
I put up a project page and poll on Drop:


Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.

yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...


Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:44:01 »
I put up a project page and poll on Drop:


Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.

yooooo this is sick thanks

pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods

Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...
i'm


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Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #125 on: Sun, 17 May 2020, 17:26:07 »
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.

No problem. I think I replied to your comment. I am not really aware of the issue, do you have any pictures of the irregular Enter keys so I can better explain it to GMK?


My bad: I did not catch your replay on the first post. There is an entire thread about the issues with icon legends in a recent GB for Icon Mods:


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101664.0




I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.










Offline Hawksmoor

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 17 May 2020, 19:15:54 »
I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.



I agree. I wrote more about this issue here. I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)

Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures



« Last Edit: Mon, 18 May 2020, 00:09:14 by Hawksmoor »

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 05:51:31 »
VERY NICE!
This GB will definately hit MOQ!
Would you PLEASE add R5 and R0 to this GB?

Offline Pylon

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 10:40:59 »
R0/R5 hurts compatibility unless you add more keys...

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 13:51:20 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 May 2020, 14:01:02 by konstantin »
thank you for coming to my ted talk


Offline Hawksmoor

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #130 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:35:21 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer


Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 17:26:09 »

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

The problem is that "some" compatibility is actually worse. If the full set of alphas of a given keycap set is made to support the English (US) national layout, but there is one or two keys that are meant for a different national layout (say, English (UK) or German), it looks wrong and IS wrong.

There is no escaping the fact that (almost) all the custom keycap set start off with support for English (US), and perhaps a delta for (partial or complete) English (UK) support. Therefore, English (US) has to be fully supported first, or else you wind up with absurd situations where the 0xBF key is present for R2 and R1 as \| but as #~ for R3 on a keyboard that otherwise has no English (UK) presence at all. THEN, you can worry about other national layouts.

In an ideal world, we would buy sets choosing a subset of alpha-less modifiers plus a subset of mod-less alphas, and choose the latter from a list of language kits (instead of buying a English (US) alpha subset + a delta subset, as is done today), but we're not there yet, and the current state of affairs forces first to get one national layout (English (US)) right first, then worry about others through kits like, say, NordeUK or BRESLAPTIT. I hope we'll eventually get to the better position of having ten or twelve of the most common national languages offered independently of each other, and keep the few remaining ones on delta kits.


Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 19:08:14 »
A deskmat with Thinkpad nubbies arranged in rows would be pretty sweet.

Offline Damage

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:06:20 »
I would very much like to see an R0 Esc key in the accent kit. That is all.  :D

Offline shawkes

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #134 on: Tue, 19 May 2020, 11:57:33 »
Adding a vote for cut out G/H/B caps... even if it has to be a separate kit; that might make the most sense. Obviously, Kodachi and Shinobi support would be unreasonable, but my Yoda could sure use a fresh look.

Great looking set with great renders.

Offline IBMweMissU

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #135 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 03:36:48 »
Instant buy

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #136 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 09:00:56 »
What is the reasoning that supports having the UK kit joined with the Icon Mods set?

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #137 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 11:12:05 »
What is the reasoning that supports having the UK kit joined with the Icon Mods set?

The main reasons are:
  • Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
  • The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
  • Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set

Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.

Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #138 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 17:52:09 »
The main reasons are:
  • Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
  • The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
  • Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set

Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.

Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?

As I said before, international kit sales are not indicative of the number of ISO users, by any stretch:
Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.
I may be wrong, but I think Dvorcol's posts only cover international kit sales.

Besides, you said yourself that you aren't happy with the current placement of the ISO keys. I hope you'll be able to find a better solution for them by the time this goes into GB.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 May 2020, 18:38:43 by konstantin »
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Offline psxndc

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[IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #139 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:18:37 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:20:13 by psxndc »

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #140 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:03:22 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
243127-0
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline psxndc

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #141 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:19:53 »
Got it. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess getting old and having worsening eyesight has its benefits.

Offline dallman5

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 00:42:15 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
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Offline AaronR

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:29:02 »
f13 key please.

Offline hineybush

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:38:52 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0

my recent RGBYK set had R5 as well:


i love r5 baby

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:43:06 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer

I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.

You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post. Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.

On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.

« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 05:40:19 by konstantin »
thank you for coming to my ted talk


Offline guzzi

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:00:29 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)

GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as well

I have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #147 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:39:00 »
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0

It's something to consider, although... while the kit is designed for many sets, I don't want to deter buyers from this GB with a pricey add-on.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #148 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:02:11 »
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer

I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.

You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post. Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.

On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.

Show Image


First, thank you for the info.

The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.

For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.


What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.

Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 10:59:11 by voodoo6k »

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:09:31 »
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.

look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)

GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as well

I have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)




Right molds make good caps.









Offline godofdeath

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #150 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:21:15 »
F13 please

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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #151 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:53:24 »
F13 please

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Unlocked at 500 novelties sold! ;D

Offline godofdeath

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #152 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 20:26:26 »
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 20:29:11 by godofdeath »
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #153 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 21:28:27 »
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?

Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 21:45:46 by voodoo6k »

Offline godofdeath

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #154 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:04:44 »
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?

Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.

Sorry I meant accent kit, looked up saw novelty typed novelty.

Render of accent kit shows vertical enter key for numpad as r2/r3, it would be r4 right?
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Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #155 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:07:06 »
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?

Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.

Sorry I meant accent kit, looked up saw novelty typed novelty.

Render of accent kit shows vertical enter key for numpad as r2/r3, it would be r4 right?

You're right! I will correct it tomorrow. Thanks

Offline dvorcol

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #156 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:42:18 »
More
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users.  Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO  ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures

Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.

At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.

In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.

So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).

Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .
If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.

I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.

I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others

Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer

I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.

You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post. Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.

On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.

Show Image


First, thank you for the info.

The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.

For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.


What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.

Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.

About nine months ago I summarized Base kit ISO coverage in 28 different GMK group buys.  You can see a table of my findings in GMK Cafe's IC.

I was looking for these 10 keys, trying to get a feeling for bare-bones ISO support.  Perhaps a few other supporting keycaps were there and I just wasn't looking for them.  For example 1.75u shift. 

« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 22:06:31 by dvorcol »

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #157 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 06:20:38 »
First, thank you for the info.

The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.

For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.


What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.

Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.

Thank you for the feedback.

The country/layout breakdown should be taken at face value, because the dataset we have access to (as large as it is, with 1900 responses) didn't have a specific question for layout variants. Оf course, you're free to interpret the data however you like, and you're certainly correct that there isn't a 1:1 correspondence between a user's country of residence and the layout that they use. However, I don't think this makes any considerable impact on the result and conclusions of the analysis.

The important takeaway of the layout part of the analysis is that R3 \|, R4 <> seems to be the better option by a large margin, even taking the potential discrepancy between location and layout (which almost certainly does exist). And, honestly, choosing to ignore the remaining data because of that discrepancy seems like intentionally choosing not to see the forest for the trees.

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and consider a near worst-case scenario, where what you said is truer to a much larger degree than it is IRL. I'll primarily use the US as an example, since I think we can all agree that it's the most unexpected result, and there's a lot of expats living in the US (more than in any other country from the list). A lot of those expats are yellow-group-layout users to boot: there's a total of around 50–60 million Brits, Brazilians and others living in the US, Canada and Australia. Even if you take all of the surveyed ISO users in the US, remove them from the green pile, and add them to the yellow pile together with users from Canada and Australia, it's still not nearly as large enough as the remaining users in the green group (it comes out to 56% vs 35% in favor of R3 \|, R4 <>). This is a near worst-case scenario, because we're assuming that none of the self-reported ISO users in the US use a US ISO layout, and that all of them instead fall into the R3 #~, R4 \| category. Even then, R3 \|, R4 <> wins out by a considerable margin, which is pretty conclusive in my opinion.

The point is that the way it's been done in a lot of past group buys (usually R3 #~, R4 \| or R3 \|, R4 \|) is not perfect, and actual user data seems to back that up beyond any reasonable margin of error.

Just because something has been done a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that way is good. If that weren't the case, we would still be using Windows logos in all GMK sets. Change is good.

P.S. Unless the same set is run twice, each time with a different option for the ISO keys (but otherwise staying largely the same), looking at GB sales as an indicator for this doesn't mean much, since different sets/colorways enjoy different levels of popularity (and even the same set running at different times of the year, or at different points during the community's growth).
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 07:43:46 by konstantin »
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Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #158 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:00:02 »
ISO layouts are so many and so diverse that there is no a cheap alternative to really offer any reasonable coverage. The UK layout is a US layout variantion with an ISO enter; but, it is not representative of ISO variants so please do not call it ISO. Its keys do not match any other European layout.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #159 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:32:34 »
First, thank you for the info.

The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.

For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.


What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.

Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.

Thank you for the feedback.

The country/layout breakdown should be taken at face value, because the dataset we have access to (as large as it is, with 1900 responses) didn't have a specific question for layout variants. Оf course, you're free to interpret the data however you like, and you're certainly correct that there isn't a 1:1 correspondence between a user's country of residence and the layout that they use. However, I don't think this makes any considerable impact on the result and conclusions of the analysis.

[...]

Just because something has been done a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that way is good. If that weren't the case, we would still be using Windows logos in all GMK sets. Change is good.

P.S. Unless the same set is run twice, each time with a different option for the ISO keys (but otherwise staying largely the same), looking at GB sales as an indicator for this doesn't mean much, since different sets/colorways enjoy different levels of popularity (and even the same set running at different times of the year, or at different points during the community's growth).

I may have been unclear. When I look at past group buy statistics, I mean the number of ISO and international kit sales relative to base set or alphas.

ISO layouts are so many and so diverse that there is no a cheap alternative to really offer any reasonable coverage. The UK layout is a US layout variantion with an ISO enter; but, it is not representative of ISO variants so please do not call it ISO. Its keys do not match any other European layout.

You're right and I will change the title from "Icon mods / ISO" kit to "Icon mods / ISO-UK".
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:43:10 by voodoo6k »

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #160 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 10:12:10 »
ISO layouts are so many and so diverse that there is no a cheap alternative to really offer any reasonable coverage. The UK layout is a US layout variantion with an ISO enter; but, it is not representative of ISO variants so please do not call it ISO. Its keys do not match any other European layout.

You're making the same mistake of conflating a physical layout variant ("ISO" as opposed to "ANSI") with a national layout ("English (UK)") that whoever may call it (plain) "ISO". This is why it's much better to be a bit pedant and say "English (UK) over ISO", "English (US) over ANSI", etcetera.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #161 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 12:02:55 »
ISO:

To help keep this thread on topic, I will ask those interested to please start a new thread about ISO layouts/kits/naming conventions, etc.

I will take into consideration all the suggestions that were made, but further discussion is unlikely to influence the kits for this group buy.

Thanks! ;)

Offline wil

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #162 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:44:57 »
love the set. any chance of 3u spacebars? especially in the nice greyblue accent color.

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #163 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:47:22 »
I though GMK does not have a 3U sb mold, right? I would be happy to hear that Im wrong.

Offline wil

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #164 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:03:48 »
I though GMK does not have a 3U sb mold, right? I would be happy to hear that Im wrong.

they do. og spacebars round 2 and minimall will be running kits with 3u spacebars

Offline PlastikSchnittstelle

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #165 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:09:08 »
NICE!

I like small spacebar builds.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #166 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:22:00 »
This set already has a 3u spacebar in the Minila kit. That kit will soon become an Extension for all exotic 60% (Minila, split, Yoda, etc.)

Offline wil

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #167 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:58:20 »
This set already has a 3u spacebar in the Minila kit. That kit will soon become an Extension for all exotic 60% (Minila, split, Yoda, etc.)

apologies! my eyes glossed over that kit. still would love to see 3u in the accent color that's in the regular spacebar kit

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #168 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 16:43:09 »
This set already has a 3u spacebar in the Minila kit. That kit will soon become an Extension for all exotic 60% (Minila, split, Yoda, etc.)

apologies! my eyes glossed over that kit. still would love to see 3u in the accent color that's in the regular spacebar kit

No problem. It's actually quite helpful to see everyone's first reactions. As we put more and more time into a group buy, it's easy to lose touch with how it comes off.

I would like to see spacebars of every sizes in both black and blue colours, but we always prioritize the alpha colour when a choice must be made.

Offline LXVRGS

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #169 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 20:00:45 »
in for multiple rgb mod kits excited to see that offered

Offline beyonddc

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #170 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 15:43:08 »
This brings back memory.  Kind of interested...

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #171 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 20:23:06 »
ISO:

To help keep this thread on topic, I will ask those interested to please start a new thread about ISO layouts/kits/naming conventions, etc.

I will take into consideration all the suggestions that were made, but further discussion is unlikely to influence the kits for this group buy.

Thanks! ;)






Constant bumps are always a good thing for a IC thread. Even if they come at the cost of some off-topic posts, let the people free off some tension out of the quarantine.  :p

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #172 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 12:58:33 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:



This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

Offline CustomerSupport

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #173 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 20:43:18 »
Very nice and classic colorway!

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Offline IBMweMissU

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #174 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 05:53:28 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #175 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 09:31:09 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.

Offline fatpolomanjr

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #176 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 02:09:51 »
When you say Opt-In for machine punched GHB keys, do we get two sets of GHB for an increase in cost, or is it the one set gets punched? For reference, TEX included two sets of keys for their custom Yoda keyset. You're not TEX, obviously, but it helps to know, for planning purposes.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've already cut and grinded some WoB cherry doubleshots of my own, so it doesn't really affect me that much either way.
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Offline IBMweMissU

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #177 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 02:30:37 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.

Yes, I know that the top 0.75u row won't be supported, but the rest could be, so machined GHB (additional) would be nice.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #178 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 08:18:37 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.

Yes, I know that the top 0.75u row won't be supported, but the rest could be, so machined GHB (additional) would be nice.

Sounds good

When you say Opt-In for machine punched GHB keys, do we get two sets of GHB for an increase in cost, or is it the one set gets punched? For reference, TEX included two sets of keys for their custom Yoda keyset. You're not TEX, obviously, but it helps to know, for planning purposes.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've already cut and grinded some WoB cherry doubleshots of my own, so it doesn't really affect me that much either way.

You either get the Extension kit with regular GHB keys as shown above, or opt in to the Extension kit with machined GHB keys. We will send them to TEX in one batch, TEX sends it back to us and we relay them to the buyers, probably a few weeks later (or something along those lines). We haven't worked how much it would cost yet.

TEX is very busy right now with the Shinobi production.

Offline Iredeus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #179 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 00:14:29 »
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #180 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:39:35 »
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.


Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.


You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #181 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:46:24 »
Hopefully nobody bought a Shinobi thinking they would find an aftermarket keyset...

Offline Iredeus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #182 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 10:33:52 »
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.


Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.


You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.

Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.

Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.
« Last Edit: Fri, 29 May 2020, 10:37:12 by Iredeus »

Offline Lenux

  • Posts: 7
Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #183 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 11:14:37 »
An amazing keycap set !

I think it's my second choice if i can't get my hand on the other keycap set !

Hope it happens ;)

Offline equalunique

  • Posts: 506
Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #184 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 11:44:05 »
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.


Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.


You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.

Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.

Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.
The Shinobi's GHB keys also have a lot more plastic cut out from the bottom compared to the Yoda. Can't comment on the Kodachi, but since I've got the Shinobi on hand so I can confirm about that. The 4.5u spacebar is also a problem - I don't believe GMK makes one, but kits for JIS-layout Filco boards do contain them.

Offline ideus

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #185 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 15:20:04 »
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.


Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.


You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.

Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.

Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.


Sorry bud. I was not trying to make you feel bad. Your comment's wording reads as if the lack of compatibility of this set with your specialty board comes as a surprise. While it is exactly the opposite. You should expect most sets not being compatible with your board. If any that would be a surprise.  :thumb:

Offline shawkes

  • Posts: 2
Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #186 on: Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:58:33 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.

Unfortunately, Kodachi won't work either. Only Yoda. Kodachi also has the dramatic cutout under the GHB keys. (Unless TEX is able to machine those for you I suppose)
« Last Edit: Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:09:15 by shawkes »

Offline voodoo6k

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Re: [IC] GMK ThinkCaps
« Reply #187 on: Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:33:51 »
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:

Show Image


This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).

Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.

If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!

Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.

Unfortunately, Kodachi won't work either. Only Yoda. Kodachi also has the dramatic cutout under the GHB keys. (Unless TEX is able to machine those for you I suppose)

Yes, thank you for pointing that out.