[IC] ePBT ModernJA - Vintage Japanese Keyset with a Modern Touch, GB begun

[ai03]

ePBT ModernJA

ModernJA unites the classic “cross-positioned” legends of vintage Japanese keyboards with a modern ANSI legend layout and minimal black-on-white colorway.

Latest update: GB running until Nov. 25, starting at $75 for base kit. Product page available here
For faster updates, join ai03’s Discord server here





A Timeless Look

ModernJA updates the legends from the historically-oriented SimpleJA keyset to current ANSI usage while maintaining most of its genuine legendwork and character.

The neutral colorway of black print on bright white base plastic matches well with nearly any color keyboard, preventing design obsolescence and allowing the retro legends to carry forward many decades into the future.





A Touch of Authenticity

Many hours of research were conducted to implement historically used legends from vintage boards wherever possible; those that did not exist historically were crafted carefully to match the others.

The modifier keys were kept all-Japanese for a uniform look throughout the keyset.





Specifications

Manufacturer: EnjoyPBT
Vendor: KBDfans
Sales Format: Group buy
Material: PBT, dye-sub
Colors: EnjoyPBT's default "bright white" (not milky/off-white) with black print
ETA: No final date set just yet for GB, but should be fairly soon
Price: To be determined, but will try to keep affordable

Kits:








FAQ

Q. Are those photos of an actual copy?
A. Yes, this keyset has already been prototyped, and is queued for GB very soon.

Q. The kit description shows scoop-only homing keys while the photos are scooped+barred. What's the deal?
A. ePBT didn't have the scoop-only tooling when the prototype was produced; the production copy should ship with scoop-only instead.

Q. What's with the Windows icons on the Windows keys? They don't match up between the prototype and kitting images, and I dislike the iconography either way.
A. They've been swapped out to the newer variant for production. For those who do not like the logo print, please use the 拡張機能 (extended functionality) legended keys as a drop-in replacement.

Q. Can I undo the ANSIification to get the JIS style legending back?
A. The JIS/ISO kit contains a "best-effort" batch of keys to JISify the set for that use case. The stuff that ePBT doesn't have (i.e. 4.5U spacebars) are impossible to produce, so they have been left out.

Q. Any color accents, CNCed accent keys, etc.?
A. I couldn't think of anything unique, so nothing special this time around.

Q. I don't want to miss the group buy; could you send me a heads-up when it happens?
A. Join my Discord server here, and follow the instructions in the #role-toggles channel.



Credits

PENG Photography Studio (@xrehpargotohp) for photos
Kevinplus for all sorts of behind-the-scenes help

[ai03]

Reserved

[Leir]

In.

[kevinplus]

Wew

[Afteryou]

Very nice!!

[bow3i]

hot hot hot

[mcmaxmcmc]

Truly a weeb set! I'll join.

Don't mark my words.

[goddream]

incredibly keen - gonna try to mix the simpleja mods with this 

[kight]

instacop for me, really excited for this one!

[ljyel]

Have waited too long for this. I can finally be happy during covid 

[Ireojimayo]

This is so nice, totally in

Love the ai03 logo keycap 

[leexy]

100% in

[Bregoli]

Looks very good

[datfroyodoe]

Very najs!

Would you consider an add-on kit of coloured mods like GMK RGBYK to pair with both modernja and simpleja?

[V0X3L]

Love this. are you going with any EU proxy like candykey or mykeyboard?

[atlanticise]

This is so weird, count me in  )

[GMK83]

I’m in!

[Jinho]

yep thats nais

[kidviddy]

Been looking forward to this!  JIS support looks good.  Thanks for including it!

[GaNeBaL]

yes pls

[ninthcls]

Looking forward to this!

[dankpupdaddy]

Another clean set👌

[Etmost]

This looks clean. Wish it had support for 40% though.

[whirlwind]

Nice

[3ambutter]

Would you say the sample set is exactly the same quality as SimpleJA?

[konstantin]

Hi, the proposed base kit seems to be missing ム and ロ sublegends altogether, and the ー sublegend is in the wrong position.

ム is supposed to go on the pipe keys (R1 1u, R2 1.5u) as the ternary legend (bottom), where the chōonpu currently is.

The chōonpu sublegend, ー, should be moved to the quaternary (right) position on the -_ホー key in order to be consistent with modern ANSI-JP usage.

ロ should be added in the form of a `~ロ key, which is also currently missing from the set.

See these references:

• Standard ANSI-JP layout
• Visual guide to katakana sublegends in ANSI-JP–based sets
• Examples of the above layout in use: 1 2 3 4 5

Please also see GMK JIS WoB for an example of correct ANSI/JIS/ISO JP sublegend placement.

On a separate note, if this set aims to be modern, the broken pipe legend ¦ should really be replaced with a full pipe |. See here for why. In short, the pipe keys produce | on all modern systems.

Since the topic of the ¥ legend is also likely to come up, I'd like to say in advance that having ¥ as a base legend in this case is totally fine and accurate; in fact, it makes the set look more authentic, given the presence of Japanese legends on the modifiers.

Hope this helps. Best of luck with your set.

[kidviddy]

ム is supposed to go on the pipe keys (R1 1u, R2 1.5u) as the ternary legend (bottom), where the chōonpu currently is.

The chōonpu sublegend, ー, should be moved to the quaternary (right) position on the -_ホー key in order to be consistent with modern ANSI-JP usage.

Thanks Konstantin for filling in some of the ANSI-JP specifics.  Just one note to add about this: the current 1U ¥|ー key in the base kit is also used by JIS, so if it were modified to follow ANSI-JP standards as you suggest, the key as it currently stands would need to be added to the JIS kit.  Currently a bottom row version of that key is available in the ISO/JIS kit, which is a non-standard placement for JIS (I presume it's intended for use with ISO).

[zoo]

i like clean and modern PBT

[ai03]

Would you say the sample set is exactly the same quality as SimpleJA?

Maybe ever so slightly blurrier, but likely due to the base plastic (with inks being a bit more likely to diffuse on bright white and whatnot).

This looks clean. Wish it had support for 40% though.

Unfortunately, EnjoyPBT does not have the necessary tooling to make a meaningful 40 compat kit.

Hi, the proposed base kit seems to be missing ム and ロ sublegends altogether, and the ー sublegend is in the wrong position.

ム is supposed to go on the pipe keys (R1 1u, R2 1.5u) as the ternary legend (bottom), where the chōonpu currently is.

The chōonpu sublegend, ー, should be moved to the quaternary (right) position on the -_ホー key in order to be consistent with modern ANSI-JP usage.

ロ should be added in the form of a `~ロ key, which is also currently missing from the set.

See these references:

• Standard ANSI-JP layout
• Visual guide to katakana sublegends in ANSI-JP–based sets
• Examples of the above layout in use: 1 2 3 4

Please also see GMK JIS WoB for an example of correct ANSI/JIS/ISO JP sublegend placement.

On a separate note, if this set aims to be modern, the broken pipe legend ¦ should really be replaced with a full pipe |. See here for why. In short, the pipe keys produce | on all modern systems.

Since the topic of the ¥ legend is also likely to come up, I'd like to say in advance that having ¥ as a base legend in this case is totally fine and accurate; in fact, it makes the set look more authentic, given the presence of Japanese legends on the modifiers.

Hope this helps. Best of luck with your set.

To put it as simply as possible, I didn't even know of the existence of ANSI-JP until mentioned in this thread.
I'll see if I can add in a compat kit, but I cannot guarantee that I can get it in due to a few overlapping reasons:

• The GB is slated for opening within a week due to KBDfans' scheduling and avoiding conflict with upcoming holidays.
• I am currently cripplingly busy with life, and am not sure if I can secure the time to rush in an edit before the GB opens.
• The main goal of this set is to preserve the vintage JIS styling (which carries back as far as the PC-8801 and the like) as much as possible, with minimum edits necessary to update them to modern JIS while while retrofitting a nearly identical styling to ANSI English legend positioning.
• Just about everyone I've seen respond to the keyset so far over the past 8 months (most info and kitting had been posted to Discord for ages) falls into one of two camps: Those looking for the overall aesthetic and would prefer sth that matches closer to the JIS counterpart in legending for that specific look while preserving ANSI English functionality/legend-matching to an extent, and those buying the JIS kit to go full JIS.

Thanks Konstantin for filling in some of the ANSI-JP specifics.  Just one note to add about this: the current 1U ¥|ー key in the base kit is also used by JIS, so if it were modified to follow ANSI-JP standards as you suggest, the key as it currently stands would need to be added to the JIS kit.  Currently a bottom row version of that key is available in the ISO/JIS kit, which is a non-standard placement for JIS (I presume it's intended for use with ISO).

That is left in base to allow further compat with common layouts such as those involving split backspace.
Even if one purchases the ISO/JIS kit, the base kit key can be used in combination with the ISO/JIS kit keys to fill the layout.

[tsundeoku]

I've been waiting for this and I am 100% here for it, first and foremost for the JIS support but also because I like this legend style very much.

[Kokaloo]

Is this gonna be the same keycaps as epbts ghost white caps? Is that what you mean by the non milky white? Because if so, this is IT those keycaps are so fantastic I've just been dying to see something dyesubed on them.

[konstantin]

Unfortunately, EnjoyPBT does not have the necessary tooling to make a meaningful 40 compat kit.

You may be interested to know that EPBT does have the appropriate tooling now, with EPBT Ivory being the first set to run a full 40s kit in June of this year, and recent sets like EPBT Skadi and EPBT Be The One following up with their own full-featured 40s kits.

To put it as simply as possible, I didn't even know of the existence of ANSI-JP until mentioned in this thread.
I'll see if I can add in a compat kit, but I cannot guarantee that I can get it in due to a few overlapping reasons:

• The GB is slated for opening within a week due to KBDfans' scheduling and avoiding conflict with upcoming holidays.
• I am currently cripplingly busy with life, and am not sure if I can secure the time to rush in an edit before the GB opens.
• The main goal of this set is to preserve the vintage JIS styling (which carries back as far as the PC-8801 and the like) as much as possible, with minimum edits necessary to update them to modern JIS while while retrofitting a nearly identical styling to ANSI English legend positioning.
• Just about everyone I've seen respond to the keyset so far over the past 8 months (most info and kitting had been posted to Discord for ages) falls into one of two camps: Those looking for the overall aesthetic and would prefer sth that matches closer to the JIS counterpart in legending for that specific look while preserving ANSI English functionality/legend-matching to an extent, and those buying the JIS kit to go full JIS.

I understand that it may not be possible to make the changes at this point. While I was aware of this set, I hadn't seen the kitting prior to your posting here on GH, which is unfortunate.

Given the circumstances, rather than adding a compat kit (which is unlikely to sell well), I propose making the following set of changes, if time allows. These changes preserve the exact number of keys in each kit (so it shouldn't affect quotes/pricing), while fixing English/Japanese ANSI compatibility in the base kit and not affecting JIS compatibility in the JIS/ISO kit negatively. Row numbers are given using EPBT's convention (R4 – top row, R1 – bottom row), like in the kit images.

Base Kit

• Change R4 1u -_ホ to -_ホー.
• Change R4 1u and R3 1.5u ¥¦ー to ¥|ム.
  These are to ensure correct sublegend positioning for ANSI layouts, while retaining split backspace compatibility etc.
  As for the pipe legend, note that some old JP PCs (such as the PC-8801 you mentioned, or the Pingmaster) used a full pipe, not a broken one. Given the fact that this also matches modern usage, I think | is more appropriate either way.
  
  
• Change R4 1u 追い焚き to `~ロ.
  According to Japanese users I checked with, the key on the left is unneeded and is unlikely to be used (even as a novelty) as both its meaning and purpose are unclear. It seems to be the best candidate for replacement. Alternatively, you could replace any other 1u key in the base kit with R4 1u `~ロ, or just add this key outright (although that would affect quotes/pricing).
  This change is also here to ensure correct key compatibility and sublegend placement for ANSI layouts.

JIS/ISO Kit

• Change R1 1u _ロ to \_ロ.
  This is something that I forgot to mention in my previous post. The standard JIS-JP layout has a backslash on the base layer here, and the key outputs \ by default on Windows and Linux. It's only the Mac implementation that is missing the backslash. A Japanese user kindly verified this.
  
  
• Change R1 1u ¥¦ー to R4 1u ¥|ー.
  With the addition of the backslash to R1 1u \_ロ, that key can be used as the R1 ISO-UK \|ロ key (note that other sets, e.g. GMK Yuru, also put ro on the R1 ISO-UK key). Doing this frees up the ¥|ー key and allows it to be moved up to R4 so that JIS-JP is still covered correctly despite the change in the base kit, as kidviddy mentioned.

In summary, this set of changes should correct the kits' legending problems without any significant drawbacks and without requiring an extra kit or a requote. The question is just whether there is enough time to implement it.


Edit: corrections
Edit2: fix broken image link

[ai03]

Is this gonna be the same keycaps as epbts ghost white caps? Is that what you mean by the non milky white? Because if so, this is IT those keycaps are so fantastic I've just been dying to see something dyesubed on them.

It's their bright white basic color that's brighter than the milky white in their beige modifier keysets.

Change R4 1u -_ホ to -_ホー.

Just about every keyboard that comes up with a quick search for "JIS キーボード" has =_ホ, including the diagram listed on the Wikipedia page for JIS keyboards, and there has been no complaints from the JP community regarding this matter from either SimpleJA or ModernJA.

Change R4 1u and R3 1.5u ¥¦ー to ¥|ム.

Again, as described earlier, I am putting ANSI-US legending style with JIS-JP styling first.

Change R4 1u 追い焚き to `~ロ.

Every JP person I've spoken with so far who found the former key is fine with it.
I did similar with SimpleJA, leaving a small nod to those who come across it on a daily basis.

Change R1 1u _ロ to \_ロ.

Just about every keyboard that comes up with a quick search for "JIS キーボード" has _ロ, including the diagram listed on the Wikipedia page for JIS keyboards, and there has been no complaints from the JP community regarding this matter from either SimpleJA or ModernJA.

• Change R1 1u ¥¦ー to R4 1u ¥|ー.
  

The legend change I may be somewhat interested in, although personally I'd much rather purposely leave it broken as a historical reference to balance against the modern look.
The row change I will not do because this is the key for the ISO compat (not JIS) key position for ISO.

If you would like an ANSI-JP set, please buy another keyset, or wait until a future round where I may up the cost of a kit to add it in.

[ai03]

GB Date Announcement

The group buy for EnjoyPBT ModernJA will go live at KBDfans starting on November 6th, and run until November 26th.

IC speedrun any%

[konstantin]

Just about every keyboard that comes up with a quick search for "JIS キーボード" has =_ホ, including the diagram listed on the Wikipedia page for JIS keyboards, and there has been no complaints from the JP community regarding this matter from either SimpleJA or ModernJA.

I think you may be misunderstanding the point of my post. The legend you mention, -=ホ, is a JIS legend, whereas all of my suggestions pertain to ANSI legends since this is an ANSI-based set. Therefore, googling for “JIS keyboard” is not appropriate, and it's expected that you're going to get images of an entirely different layout. If you take a look, that layout differs significantly from your current kit too.

I've linked usage examples of the layout that this set (partially) follows in this post; feel free to check those links. As mentioned, the standard non-JIS JP layout uses -_ホー, not -=ホ or -_ホ. That layout can also be found here: http://kbdlayout.info/kbdjpn, and it's what most non-JIS sets with JP sublegends are based on (some recent examples are: βeta, Bentō R2, Mecha-01, Musubi, Masterpiece).

One more thing: it's to be expected that folks from the JP community would not notice these discrepancies in the ANSI-based layout since pretty much none of them use it. It's primarily Westerners with ANSI and ISO physical layouts that use it, and it would be nice if this set (being ANSI-based) offered support for that. On the other hand, I acknowledge the fact that unlike myself and some others, a lot of folks don't care about having proper legend positioning and just want to have JP legends on their boards for aesthetics, regardless of whether they are fully usable or not.

Again, as described earlier, I am putting ANSI-US legending style with JIS-JP styling first.

Yes, I get that, but what I'm trying to say is that there's a de-facto standard way of doing that, which is the layout that I mentioned and linked to above. You have to keep in mind that “ANSI-JP” is not a layout unto itself — it's just a way of mapping JP legends to an ANSI layout — which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what you're going for here, no?

Every JP person I've spoken with so far who found the former key is fine with it.
I did similar with SimpleJA, leaving a small nod to those who come across it on a daily basis.

Keeping that key is fine; removing it wasn't the main point of that suggestion. The point was to add a `~ロ key somewhere in the base kit, and removing one of the existing keys is just one way of doing that (that avoids you having to get a requote right before the GB start).
Don't you find it a bit weird that you're omitting crucial legends like ロ or ホ in a Japanese keyset? Please consider including them.

Just about every keyboard that comes up with a quick search for "JIS キーボード" has _ロ, including the diagram listed on the Wikipedia page for JIS keyboards, and there has been no complaints from the JP community regarding this matter from either SimpleJA or ModernJA.

You are probably looking at a diagram of the Mac JIS implementation, which, as mentioned earlier, differs from the standard JIS layout in a few respects. The standard JIS layout diagram on Wikipedia can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Japanese. As you can see, it includes a backslash on the ro key.

The legend change I may be somewhat interested in, although personally I'd much rather purposely leave it broken as a historical reference to balance against the modern look.
The row change I will not do because this is the key for the ISO compat (not JIS) key position for ISO.

If you would like an ANSI-JP set, please buy another keyset, or wait until a future round where I may up the cost of a kit to add it in.

I am okay with that. Thanks for your consideration either way.

[kidviddy]

Thanks as always to Konstantin to fighting the good fight regarding ANSI-JP.  I wasn't aware of this layout before he pointed it out to me, either, and although my priority has been and remains on correct JIS support (by which metric this set does very well), I am glad that he is taking the time to consider the wider view of kana sublegends generally.  It is not just a question of pedantry: an ANSI user who enables the Kana input method for Japanese on their ANSI keyboard might be surprised, upon pressing a key marked ¥|ー, to find the character む being produced.

Of course, it is also true that ANSI users of this set are much less likely than JIS users to enable Kana input mode in the first place (and, let's face it, even amongst JIS users kana is in the minority).  For this reason, it is unlikely that anybody will actually suffer from or even notice these discrepancies; ANSI users will have a keyboard that works perfectly well for them in Latin input modes, and JIS users will have a keyboard that works for both Latin and Kana input modes (a rare luxury for us, for which I am grateful!).  It seems as if the ship has already sailed on making the sorts of changes to this set that would be required for fully correct ANSI-JP support, and for most people (including most ANSI users), that's fine and they shouldn't let that put them off purchasing the set.  If you are an ANSI user who likes the aesthetics of kana sublegends modelled on vintage Japanese keyboard designs (which were mostly JIS anyway), or a JIS user of any stripe, this is a great set and you shouldn't hesitate to buy it.

If there is ever a round 2, or a future set based on kana sublegends, it would be worth taking Konstantin's suggestions on board, as it sounds as if they offer a good path to fully correct ANSI-JP support without compromising the excellent JIS support this set currently enjoys.

[haystack]

ai03, thanks for designing for people rather than rules. You do good work.

[treeleaf64]

ai03 is a weeb confirmed

[timtamale]

Holy **** ai03 has been BUSY this year. So many releases, looks great!

[ai03]

To put it as simply as possible, I've my own design decisions, my own research, and my own trusted people around me who I consulted in-depth for both ModernJA and SimpleJA until the legends passed as genuine enough.

I may include support for US-101 overlaid JP kana input sublegends at a future run, but not now, especially when none of the JP community members I've consulted with so far see any real-world practicality in it.

Furthermore, I am not confident that I can update the files, receive a new quote, and recalculate GB pricing in less than a week when this week is one of the most cripplingly busy weeks of my life so far to the point that writing each of these Geekhack posts is placing a massive strain on my available time.

[niakulah]

Q. What's with the Windows icons on the Windows keys? They don't match up between the prototype and kitting images, and I dislike the iconography either way.
A. They've been swapped out to the newer variant for production. For those who do not like the logo print, please use the 拡張機能 (extended functionality) legended keys as a drop-in replacement.

Just to clarify, the newer Windows 10 logo in the kitting image is the one that is being used?

[ai03]

Q. What's with the Windows icons on the Windows keys? They don't match up between the prototype and kitting images, and I dislike the iconography either way.
A. They've been swapped out to the newer variant for production. For those who do not like the logo print, please use the 拡張機能 (extended functionality) legended keys as a drop-in replacement.

Just to clarify, the newer Windows 10 logo in the kitting image is the one that is being used?

Yes

[thanhhuy1910]

Anyone knows the color code for this set, I'm looking forward to mix this with my Kuro Shiro (color code GMK WS1)?

[ButDutWut]

Anyone knows the color code for this set, I'm looking forward to mix this with my Kuro Shiro (color code GMK WS1)?

Kuro Shiro is close to WS1 and it looks like this is closer to WS2 or a "bright white"

[thanhhuy1910]

Anyone knows the color code for this set, I'm looking forward to mix this with my Kuro Shiro (color code GMK WS1)?

Kuro Shiro is close to WS1 and it looks like this is closer to WS2 or a "bright white"

Thanks! Guess I would get myself one JP mod for Kuro Shiro then.

[ai03]

After some delay with getting the sample shipped for final confirmation, the group buy is live at KBDfans with base kit starting at $75.

https://kbdfans.com/collections/keycaps/products/ic-epbt-modernja

The GB will run until November 25 without a unit cap.

---

As the group buy is now open, the thread will be locked.
For future updates regarding the group buy, please join either the KBDfans discord or my own linked in the first post.