healthcare benefits starting to kick in

[wellington1869]

nyt reports on the first round of folks to get concrete benefits from the new healthcare laws.

btw repubs just announced their new platform is based on trying to get healthcare repealed. cuz you know, allowing insurers to drop your coverage soon as you get sick is 'good'.

that wacky obama with his wacky ideas.

[wellington1869]

insured children make republicans cry.

[ch_123]

The Founding Fathers did not die in Pearl Harbor for this Communism! Hurr Durr indeed.

[keyboardlover]

Only problem is that those who contribute to society will be paying for the healthcare of those who don't (many of whom also don't take care of themselves.) And their healthcare costs will increase. Because making it easier for people to milk the system is good? Sigh...

[itlnstln]

Because children can get jobs and pay for their own healthcare?

[keyboardlover]

Because children can get jobs and pay for their own healthcare?

They're covered under their parents who can get jobs.

[itlnstln]

Can they?  I'm going to take a poll in Detroit.

So if the parents can't get jobs, it's OK if the kids suffer or die due lack of medical accessibility?  You can say "yes;" I'm just trying to understand the other perspective here.

[instantkamera]

And that guy is from Texas ^^^

[keyboardlover]

Can they?  I'm going to take a poll in Detroit.

So if the parents can't get jobs, it's OK if the kids suffer or die due lack of medical accessibility?  You can say "yes;" I'm just trying to understand the other perspective here.

Well if the parents didn't get COBRA to ensure their kids would be safe I think that would be a case of neglect. I'm sure the situation could be rough and it might be difficult to get money (especially with bad credit) but they have to have some accountability and responsibility.

[itlnstln]

And that guy is from Texas ^^^

Not really but dually noted.  I feel like an alien here.  At least the weather is nice.

[instantkamera]

Oh, so you are an imposter?

"Is that a six shooter in your pocket or are you itlnstln?"

[keyboardlover]

Excellent, I can practically hear the republicans and tea party..."people"...screaming.

Who could possibly want healthcare that actually works?!

My healthcare has been fine...why would I want it to get worse and pay more taxes?

[iMav]

It's not that a medical insurance safety net is bad.  It's that this should not be the role of the federal government.  As I've mentioned before, Wisconsin and Minnesota both have successful state healthcare programs that cover the, otherwise, uninsured.  (MNCare and BadgerCare)

Leave the social programs to the state and local communities.  That way, if you don't like paying for it, you have the option to move to another community/state/etc.

The federal government really needs to stick with the core functions it was originally intended...

[frvrngn]

Our family healthcare plan has nearly doubled every year.  It would have accounted for over 35% of gross income if we had stayed with it.  Luckily my wife was able to get in the State Employee plan to lower the costs enough so we could afford it.  

I am most thankful for the repeal of insurers to being able to exclude existing conditions.  My son had open heart surgery at 4 months of age and still needs to see a cardiologist.  Had this rule not happened, every insurer after he was off our family plan could have excluded any condition relating to his heart.  My mother has RA and could not switch to a lower cost insurer since they were all excluding any treatment of her RA.  

So let's see - we'll insure you for thousands per year but we wont cover anything that you actually need us for...  Nice.

Dont get me started on what hospitals and doctors are trying to charge.  All our statements always show what the hospital billed vs. what the insurance company "negotiated" down too.  So if you did not have insurance, you would be screwed by the much larger amount - in some cases nearly double what the insurance company negotiated down.

[wellington1869]

The federal government really needs to stick with the core functions it was originally intended...

same can be said about the insurance industry, unfortunately. If they stuck by their own contracts and successfully provided their core functions, none of this would have been necessary.  

In 1776 however there werent any health insurance companies. So I'm glad our founding fathers had the wisdom to build the ability to adapt-and-respond to changing needs right into our constitution, too.

[itlnstln]

Cycle of poverty - the American Way.  Hey, as I long as I get to keep my personal wealth, **** everyone else.  Just beef up the po-leece; poor people are some theivin'-ass muh'****as.

[keyboardlover]

Cycle of poverty - the American Way.  Hey, as I long as I get to keep my personal wealth, **** everyone else.  Just beef up the po-leece; poor people are some theivin'-ass muh'****as.

I don't get why people say that - we have one of the biggest middle classes of any country in the world. Most other countries have a much larger gap between rich and poor than us. And at least here, there are ample opportunities for everyone to do well. Hence 'the land of opportunity'.

[instantkamera]

Cycle of poverty - the American Way.  Hey, as I long as I get to keep my personal wealth, **** everyone else.  Just beef up the po-leece; poor people are some theivin'-ass muh'****as.

l

o

l


Seriously though, IS that the American way? I have never understood why those with more money pay LESS tax. Fair is fair. I don't get hoarding money like it's going out of style.

[keyboardlover]

l

o

l


Seriously though, IS that the American way? I have never understood why those with more money pay LESS tax. Fair is fair. I don't get hoarding money like it's going out of style.

Most of the folks that come here from other countries do so for the opportunities we have here, which are provided by capitalism. So I don't understand that argument at all.

[instantkamera]

Cycle of poverty - the American Way.  Hey, as I long as I get to keep my personal wealth, **** everyone else.  Just beef up the po-leece; poor people are some theivin'-ass muh'****as.

Also funny that many theivin'-ass rich people think this way.

[itlnstln]

The 1950's are over.  The middle class is shrinking, and opportunities are few and far between.  China is the new land of opportunity.  Growing middle class, business growth, etc.

And they do say that, explicitly, in Texas.

[keyboardlover]

The 1950's are over.  The middle class is shrinking, and opportunities are few and far between.  China is the new land of opportunity.  Growing middle class, business growth, etc.

And they do say that, explicitly, in Texas.

Blehhh no way. China's economy got this way because it's been working its people to the bone. This won't be able to persist forever and their bubble will eventually burst. History has shown us that these kind of economies do not last. Most of their opportunities aren't even homegrown; they're based on jobs through foreign companies.

Edit: do a google search for 'working conditions in china'

[keyboardlover]

You should see the working conditions in Texas.

Is it anything like this?

More here.

[instantkamera]

Most of the folks that come here from other countries do so for the opportunities we have here,

If they only knew...

which are provided by capitalism. So I don't understand that argument at all.

It's not an argument, it's a point of view. Call me crazy, but it's damaging to a society to have a large percentage of the population not give a **** about society/community at all.

Blehhh no way. China's economy got this way because it's been working its people to the bone. This won't be able to persist forever and their bubble will eventually burst. History has shown us that these kind of economies do not last. Most of their opportunities aren't even homegrown; they're based on jobs through foreign companies.

Edit: do a google search for 'working conditions in china'

sounds familiar:

Ah, ah, I almost forgot...I'm also going to need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

[instantkamera]

Aha, that's agreeable. In fact, it's how it works here, more or less (healthcare is provided at the provincial level - I carry an Ontario health card, not a "Canada" health card).

Ooooo Ontario government allows hotlinking of images. Good stuff.

Yeah, exactly the same and completely ****ing stupid. It's the same healthcare pretty well anywhere you go. I have lived in three provinces, and the differences are negligible. But each and every time I have had to get a new healthcard, and go through the whole rigamarole. In quebec, they had the nerve to all but accuse my wife and I of moving there specifically FOR health benefits(??). Just make it the one card and call it a day. Maybe then certain provinces will realize they really are part of a larger country.

[keyboardlover]

If they only knew...

I Know - I know a lot of people that work abroad, have worked with such folks and have traveled abroad. And I also know many folks that have moved here from abroad, specifically for the opportunities.

It's not an argument, it's a point of view. Call me crazy, but it's damaging to a society to have a large percentage of the population not give a **** about society/community at all.

You'd be amazed how much larger that percentage is in many other countries. And especially communist and post-communist countries, China included.

[instantkamera]

I wont argue that, Im saying that there is always something better to aspire to.

[keyboardlover]

Letting the tax cuts expire for the top 2% of income earners would more than pay for ObamaCare.  But than's not going to happen.  Money talks.

Hmmm...if that chart showed Obama the spending would obviously be off the chart...

[wellington1869]

Also funny that many theivin'-ass rich people think this way.

dude, rich people love socialism -- for themselves. They get all the tax loopholes and tax breaks and government subsidies and handouts for their industries.  They just dont want anyone else getting any federal protections.

SO lets get it right -- socialism for the rich -- and capitalism for the poor -- thats the american way.

[wellington1869]

Hmmm...if that chart showed Obama the spending would obviously be off the chart...

spending isnt the issue.

The quesiton is spending on what?

If you're spending to invest  -- for instance in technologies that will create new jobs that will more than pay for themselves, thats just common sense.

If you're spending to invest in preventative healthcare that will reduce the cost of healthcare nationwide and in long run will reduce the deficit, thats just common sense.

If you're spending on the nation's infrastructure -- road, high speed rail, internet -- that will boost nation-wide productivity and safety, thats just common sense.

If you're spending to actually enforce existing financial laws and existing environmental laws and existing consumer protection laws, thats just common sense.

If you're investing in access to education for a more competitive national work force, thats just common sense.

Thats what dems do.

Look at what the bushies spent on: yet more tax cuts for the rich (!) and an unecessary retarded war in iraq while the real bad guys got away with it in afghanistan. Gutting existing oversight agencies (financial, environmental, consumer) with the deliberate goal of bankrupting the national government.

Now choose who you want watching over the u.s. economy. I know who I want.

Its a question of priorities.

[ch_123]

They're covered under their parents who can get jobs.

Right, but what about the ones who can't afford healthcare?

[keyboardlover]

And what about the 15-20% or so of Americans living below the poverty line?

So, there are people who have come here with nothing and have become successful (or not), and people who have grown up here with nothing and have become successful (or not). Why didn't one group take advantage of the opportunities that the other did?

[ch_123]

Well, if everyone was capable of doing the rags-to-riches routine, then it wouldn't really count for much now would it?

When you start blaming poor people for being poor, bad things happen...

[keyboardlover]

Well, if everyone was capable of doing the rags-to-riches routine, then it wouldn't really count for much now would it?

When you start blaming poor people for being poor, bad things happen...

What about blaming poor people for not contributing to society i.e. not doing ****?

[instantkamera]

Why didn't one group take advantage of the opportunities that the other did?

The rich people in America sure are clever. The even have the poor people convinced that their way is right. So basically, even non-rich American's support ****ting on poor people, in the hopes that one day they too might undergo a rag-to-riches transformation, at which point they will also be free to hoard their money and begin ****ting on poor people in earnest.

nice.

[instantkamera]

What about blaming poor people for not contributing to society i.e. not doing ****?

Like Paris Hilton ... oh no that's right, she's rich.

I get it. It's OK to be stupid and lazy as long as you have money.

Trust me, the whole "All poor people are freeloaders" bit is tired BS. While there are some who might be doing so, there are FAR more people in the US and Canada who are legitimately broke, and are unable to dig themselves out of that hole, even though they work hard to do so.

[ch_123]

What about blaming poor people for not contributing to society i.e. not doing ****?

Ah yes, I forgot that they chose to be poor and wouldn't want to be poor if they were given the opportunity. Thanks for reminding me.

[Lanx]

Too bad the Chinese are so damn rude.  Plus they belch a lot.

i've been called curt, never a belching fattie tho.

[keyboardlover]

instantkamera & ch_123 --

When I was younger, I volunteered a lot (along with my others in my church) to help the poor and homeless. The VAST majority of the people we met were only looking for handouts. They were in the situations they were in because of themselves, and didn't want to change. People who wouldn't take jobs but instead chose to eat in soup kitchens and live in shelters. They get used to this lifestyle - it's habituating. If we help them to continue to habituate like this - we are doing an injustice to our society.

Have either of you ever volunteered to work with the poor and homeless? Were your experiences different from mine?

[ch_123]

So, because the "poor" people in your area were predominantly people looking for a free lunch, that means that A) this trend is true across all parts of America and B) there is no substantive poverty problem across America?

Never get a job as a statistician.

[keyboardlover]

So, because the "poor" people in your area were predominantly people looking for a free lunch, that means that A) this trend is true across all parts of America and B) there is no substantive poverty problem across America?

Never get a job as a statistician.

Well, I won't tell you where I live but it's in a city with one of the highest poverty rates in America. Speaking of jobs, do you even have one?

[ch_123]

And that's relevant, how?

[keyboardlover]

And that's relevant, how?

Well I've found that lazy people are typically more likely to support the rights of the lazy

[ch_123]

So you genuinely believe that poverty is caused by laziness?

And please stop arguing like a retarded five year old. If you won't tell me what city you are in, why should I tell you what I do with my life?

[instantkamera]

Have either of you ever volunteered to work with the poor and homeless? Were your experiences different from mine?

As a matter of fact, Yes, and yes they were. However, even the people looking for a handout, did you ever stop to put yourself in their shoes? Put yourself in a homeless persons place, with the exact same resources they have access to and what do YOU do? If you have some kind of scheme for getting rich, I'm sure they would love to hear it, maybe they can't see the silver-lining to the situation they have been living in the way someone on the outside looking in can. Poor people need more than just food and water...

That brings me to another point. Does anyone know how hard it is to donate time/resources to a cause that is NOT driven and funded by a religious group? No one else seems to have the time or money to set up programs. My wife and I are not religious, and want to give back because we want to help, not because we feel like it's our Christian duty. All the kitchens in our area are church ones, and we did Samaritan's purse last year. We do them anyway, but it would be nice to donate something without that feeling of "strings attached". This year, thankfully, we have found a Women's Shelter that does baskets.

[keyboardlover]

So you genuinely believe that poverty is caused by laziness?

And please stop arguing like a retarded five year old. If you won't tell me what city you are in, why should I tell you what I do with my life?

LOL ok, you got it pal

[ch_123]

I didn't think you could answer that question either...

[itlnstln]

Really, there a lot of problems.  The education system as a whole only helps the middle and upper classes; schools in poorer neighborhoods are there to house children during the day, not provide a good education.  The parents are too poor to provide their children tools like PCs and whatnot, and there usually are not public libraries in those areas.  The schools themselves cannot afford that equipment, either.  If the children even make it out of public school, then comes the challenge of paying for college.  Sure, there are programs to help these kids, but few of them fully pay for college, and the parents cannot afford to supplement grants, but since the schools rarely help the kids find funding, they probably won't even be able to get that help.  

You can imagine where it goes from there.  Money helps money; our system is not setup to help those that need it.  It would be one thing if all aspects of our society were equal, but they're not, and that's the unfortunate part.

[keyboardlover]

I didn't think you could answer that question either...

I can. I don't think laziness is necessarily a cause, but it certainly doesn't help!

Edit: but I'm a retarded 5 year old, so what do you care what I think?

[ch_123]

So, are you saying that a majority of poverty is caused by people being lazy?