healthcare benefits starting to kick in

[ricercar]

What happens when those options are explored and found inadequate?

The trouble with arguments like yours is the base assumption that your experience is universal. Because you have always met your needs without XXX is no basis to postulate everyone else can meet their needs without XXX. Especially with millions of individuals who stand as evidence to the contrary.

[instantkamera]

There are lots of other things you can do: relocate, change professions, increase education, etc. to turn those 21 months into much less.

1) Relocate - takes money. You still are unemployed, so what good does that really do? What if you move to a ****tier city?

2)Change professions - Often requires education, especially in a market where people are losing jobs they are already qualified for. see 3.

3) increase education - takes money, generally. Also takes TIME. May not work out.

I know other folks who have done those things, so I know its not a fantasy.

Wow, people have moved, gotten different jobs, and educated themselves? Obviously EVERYONE can do those things if some guy on the internet knows people that have accomplished these tasks.

Thousands of people have gotten pga tour cards, why isn't that on your list. TONNES of people have done it so obviously EVERYONE CAN.

[ricercar]

Where's my PGA card? I want to play golf professionally.

Starting tomorrow.

[instantkamera]

I mean why cant you? Obviously you don't want it bad enough. Lazy bum.

[keyboardlover]

I think the word 'can't' is a big part of the problem. I've found that people who use this word all the time get nowhere in life. It's those that know that there's nothing that can't be done, who are the ones who consistently succeed.

[ricercar]

Right, I'm obviously too lazy to find work, obviously have not relocated, obviously have not re-educated, and obviously have not changed professions because I'm still unemployed. It's only because I think I can't.

There were 810 applicants for one Wal-mart "greeter" position near me. Psychology PhDs, MBAs and literally a rocket scientist in line were interviewed for the local news. Fast food is populated by college grads here in Silicon Valley. This is not a fantasy world.

[mike]

I'm not assuming. I know from experience that many prefer it that way.

Your experience is as a do-gooder ... nothing wrong with that, but you don't necessarily get to know the "lazy poor" properly that way. As it happens I've gotten to know a few of the very poor on a no-strings basis - varying from a guy who preferred to die from gangrene to losing his leg, a number of alcoholics (and other substance abuse users), a traditional English tramp (who did rather more casual work than you would assume), and a number of young people who just fell through the cracks.

They're not all quite as grasping for handouts as that; in fact they're often far more generous than you would believe. Indeed a number feel quite embarrassed by the need for handouts and would cover their embarrassment by pretending to themselves and others that they were entitled to handouts. This will be the source of some of the attitude you see at soup-kitchens.

"Down and Out In Paris and London" is a dated, but very good read by George Orwell on the life of those on the underbelly of society.

[keyboardlover]

Right, I'm obviously too lazy to find work, obviously have not relocated, obviously have not re-educated, and obviously have not changed professions because I'm still unemployed.

There were 810 applicants for one Wal-mart "greeter" position near me. Psychology PhDs, MBAs and literally a rocket scientist in line were interviewed for the local news. Fast food is populated by college grads here in Silicon Valley. This is not a fantasy world.

I'm not talking about you - just people in general. I don't really know much about your situation. And those folks you mentioned - I'm sure there are other issues leading to the fact that they can't get jobs. It's a big country and there are plenty of job opportunities for people as educated as them. One thing I've noticed in particular is some people don't interview well, for example. Also some people can't work well with others, etc., etc.

[instantkamera]

conversely, We have moved, increased our education and thankfully continue to hold down great jobs. Why am I not gripped by the same desire to **** on those below me (economically speaking)?
The day I can shop for a 60" TV and can't be bothered to share the wealth with those less fortunate or have the gall to complain that poor people have free healthcare is the day I want my wife to leave me, and my company to fire me and to get the HIV. Maybe then Ill have some idea of why a country should be there to help it's countrymen, not ignore them (or worse, to make a profit off their backs).

[ricercar]

there are other issues leading to the fact that they can't get jobs. It's a big country and there are plenty of job opportunities for people as educated as them. One thing I've noticed in particular is some people don't interview well, for example. Also some people can't work well with others, etc., etc.

But I understood you to say that people like this, who can't work well with others, who don't interview well, people who are out of work, all/any would be guilty of child neglect if they (had children and) went without COBRA. What did I miss?

[pikapika]

As a french, I'm still surprised that a minimal health care as you seem to get now can bring so much bad opinions.
For us, it's a normal thing, even if our governement try to takes it a bit down. Everybody pays a few so that ill people can be cured, and it seems to me as normal.
A society that doesn't help people to be sane, to have food, work and somewhere to live is not a society but a jungle. Even in jungle, animals have a kind of solidarity between each species.

About the "if you want you can" speech about employement, I've heard some people making this statement too here, even if it tends to disappear a bit with crisis.
Though it's totally irrelevant, getting educated does not assure a good job anymore, relocating s mostly useless as there is crisis everywhere, change profession is mostly useless as there will be people in your new branch that have more experience and also search job.
massive unemployement is a tool for capitalism to make pressure on working people and it's extremly used
getting a job, if you're poor or even middle class, middle aged with family can look like the quest of the graal

[keyboardlover]

But I understood you to say that people like this, who can't work well with others, who don't interview well, people who are out of work, all/any would be guilty of child neglect if they (had children and) went without COBRA. What did I miss?

No, I'm saying that if they didn't do what it took to take care of their family, that's kind of neglectful isn't it?

[ch_123]

And then we go to the bit where we realize once again the difference between what is necessary, and what people are actually genuinely capable of, and the argument thus flies around in circles over and over again.

[wellington1869]

Everybody pays a few so that ill people can be cured, and it seems to me as normal.

as far as health insurance goes, this is really the point. Its an economic decision, ultimately, to get everyone in the pool so that each individual pays less and the overall health delivery system is far more efficient, common costs are shared commonly and the economic advantage is huge.

You dont need to be a 'humanitarian' to realize the huge economic advantage for the entire nation, both individuals and collectively. There simply is no downside. Its a lot like the climate change argument in that regard - you dont have to be a do-gooder to realize that improving the efficiency of our engines benefits everything up and down the line, including putting hard cash into our pockets.

So when repubs oppose things like that, they have virtually no argument to stand on, simply opposition for its own sake, for the sake of whipping up fear for the party to win elections, thats it.  They're selling america and the american people up the river when they do that. Some 'patriots'.

[keyboardlover]

as far as health insurance goes, this is really the point. Its an economic decision, ultimately, to get everyone in the pool so that each individual pays less and the overall health delivery system is far more efficient, common costs are shared commonly and the economic advantage is huge.

You dont need to be a 'humanitarian' to realize the huge economic advantage for the entire nation, both individuals and collectively. There simply is no downside. Its a lot like the climate change argument in that regard - you dont have to be a do-gooder to realize that improving the efficiency of our engines benefits everything up and down the line, including putting hard cash into our pockets.

So when repubs oppose things like that, they have virtually no argument to stand on, simply opposition for its own sake, for the sake of whipping up fear for the party to win elections, thats it.  They're selling america and the american people up the river when they do that. Some 'patriots'.

Lol - 'there simply is no downside' - you have got to be kidding me. EVERY government-run program has upsides and downsides. These include decreased quality of care for many people and increased taxes (do you have any idea how much they'll increase). I'm sure most doctors will love the fact that their salaries will be cut in half and their insurance costs will skyrocket. We have a different culture and we've had it for a long time - and going to a government-run healthcare program involves a huge culture change. While I think it's the right thing for other countries I don't think it's the right thing for us. But that's just my opinion.

[ch_123]

Poor people getting healthcare at the expense of doctors and insurance agents earning less money? Me and my militia are going to shoot some feds if that one happens!

Plenty of doctors rolling in the dough in the pinko bastion in which I currently reside.

[keyboardlover]

Poor people getting healthcare at the expense of doctors and insurance agents earning less money? Me and my militia are going to shoot some feds if that one happens!

Plenty of doctors rolling in the dough in the pinko bastion in which I currently reside.

It's not like they can't get it - they can get it if they pay for it (or get a job that pays for it).

Anyway, I got curious about doctors salaries in different countries so I found this. Really interesting...

[wellington1869]

so keyboard, which one of these "horrible" healthcare reforms do you oppose?

Starting today, insurers will be required to:

•Keep you covered when you get sick: Simple mistakes or typos will no longer be grounds for insurance companies to cancel your insurance.
•Cover kids with pre-existing conditions: Your kids can no longer be denied health coverage just because they have a pre-existing condition like hay fever, asthma, or previous sports injuries. This protection extends to all plans, except "grandfathered" plans in the individual market.
•Allow young adults to stay on their parents' plan up to age 26: Even if their first few jobs don't provide health benefits, your kids can still remain covered by your insurance.
•Remove lifetime limits: You will no longer need to worry about your health insurer limiting the amount of coverage available through their plan if you face an expensive medical condition. This will help Americans who develop chronic conditions from taking drastic measures to avoid medical bankruptcy.
•Phase out annual limits: Many plans include annual dollar limits on how much medical coverage can be obtained per year. On all non-"grandfathered" plans in the individual market, these limits will be phased out over the next three years.

For any insurance plan that goes into effect after September 23, 2010, your insurance company must:

•Pay for preventive care like mammograms and immunizations: Addressing problems before they start can help keep you healthier, and new insurance plans will now cover many preventative tests and immunizations without any copayment.
•Give you a better appeals process for insurance claims: Now you'll have a guaranteed and fair path to help you receive the benefits you paid for if insurance companies deny your claim.
•Let you choose your own doctor: Health reform makes it clear that you can choose any available participating primary care provider as your provider, and any available participating pediatrician to be your child's primary care provider.
•Provide easier access to OB-GYN services: Women will no longer be required to have a referral from a primary care provider before seeking coverage for obstetrical or gynecological (OB-GYN) care from a participating OB-GYN specialist.
•Allow you to use the nearest emergency room without penalty: If an emergency arises while you're away, you will no longer have to drive home to your in-network provider to receive in-network benefits.

Many other new benefits of the law have already taken effect, including rebate checks for seniors in the donut hole and tax credits for small businesses. Keep watching, as more rights, protections and benefits for Americans are on the way now through 2014.

I'm waiting for you to give obama credit...

[jpc]

Responsible and hard working people will benefit from HCR. Not just lazy bums!

For example. Imagine someone who would like to start a small business. Without HCR, this person might be stuck working a full-time job just for the health plan (perhaps because someone in the family has a medical condition that would make private insurance too expensive.) With HCR, this person can start a business and be the next Warren Buffett.

That should make the Ayn Rand fans happy right?

Another benefit. Prior to HCR, I would be less inclined to see a doctor about my RSI. As soon as I tell a doctor, it becomes a "pre-existing condition" that could make it difficult to find insurance later. With HCR, it's no problem.

[keyboardlover]

Actually I think most of those things seem good...but they don't really compose a "universal healthcare plan" so to speak. I guess we'll see how it all plays out in years to come...

[wellington1869]

keyboard, you sound like someone who's too young (or too rich) to have had either a family to take care of or a job to keep.

[keyboardlover]

Responsible and hard working people will benefit from HCR. Not just lazy bums!

For example. Imagine someone who would like to start a small business. Without HCR, this person might be stuck working a full-time job just for the health plan (perhaps because someone in the family has a medical condition that would make private insurance too expensive.) With HCR, this person can start a business and be the next Warren Buffett.

That should make the Ayn Rand fans happy right?

Another benefit. Prior to HCR, I would be less inclined to see a doctor about my RSI. As soon as I tell a doctor, it becomes a "pre-existing condition" that could make it difficult to find insurance later. With HCR, it's no problem.

Many of my views come from the fact that a very close family member of mine, who literally came from a very poor upbringing, worked to the bone and became very successful (including starting a successful business while working a full-time job for the benefits). So, what I'm saying is anything can be done; it's only a matter of will. The framework already in place in America allows these achievements and I truly believe that anyone can achieve what they set out to.

[wellington1869]

Actually I think most of those things seem good...

are you willing to give credit where its due? You do know that the repubs nearly across the board opposed all of this.

but they don't really compose a "universal healthcare plan" so to speak

they're part and parcel of the comprehensive plan to ensure that a) individuals who have insurance are themselves covered fairly and fully; b) individuals who dont have insurance can get affordable insurance by being part of a larger pool of applicants, thus sharing the costs around (which is the whole point of insurance and how its supposed to work).

Its actually a measure of obama's centrism that his plan is still an open-market plan, by the way. You'll still be getting your insurance from private corporations, there is no "government" health coverage at all in this. All government does is enforce the rules as written so the playing field and competition (ie, capitalism) works the way it should. So much for communism.

[keyboardlover]

keyboard, you sound like someone who's too young (or too rich) to have had either a family to take care of or a job to keep.

You are correct that I don't have a family...but I know others that do and share my views. And I do have a job to keep, I work hard and have done so all my life.

are you willing to give credit where its due? You do know that the repubs nearly across the board opposed all of this.

You seem to think I'm a Bush-lover...I'm definitely not, but I don't think Obama is much better. Like I said, we have to see how it plays out in the future. Those things seem good from reading them, but how they will play out in reality has yet to be seen.

[wellington1869]

I love the way keyboard is so enthusiastic about throwing the poor and the sick under the bus.  (So much for catholicism).

You should really run for office one day keyboard, you'll make sarah palin look like FDR.

[maclover]

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11204

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK.  Do you still believe that health care reform as
passed by the Congress will reduce the deficit?  

    PETER ORSZAG:  Ultimately if it’s executed well, if it’s implemented
well.  And it’s worth pausing on the three basic options here.  

    You can ration care.  Not going to happen.  You can have consumer-
directed health care like Representative Ryan has proposed.  The problem
with that -- so the idea is add more consumers’ skin in the game.  The
problem with that is the vast majority of health care costs are high cost
cases.  The top 25 percent of Medicare beneficiaries ranked by cost, 85
percent of the total cost.  The whole purpose --

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The top 25 percent of Medicare beneficiaries where the
money is spent for the top 25 percent is --  

    PETER ORSZAG:  Is 85 percent of overall cost.  The other 75 percent of
the people or 15 percent of the cost.  That’s where you’re concentrating
the consumer cost sharing because you’re never going to say, oh, you’re
going into the hospital and you’re in the emergency room and I’m sorry you
have 50 percent cost sharing.  

    The whole purpose of insurance is to protect against those high cost
cases.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  We have found out that’s ripe with capacity of
political rhetoric to take advantage of it.  

    PETER ORSZAG:  So the point is there’s only limited traction, much
less so than the idea initially seems from that approach.  

    And then you’re left with the third bucket, which is how do you get at
that 85 percent of cost.  And it is my very firm belief that what you need
to do is to be affecting what doctors recommend, because in most of those
cases the health care you get is what your doctor recommends for those high
cost cases.  

    And that involves better information, so better evidence-based
medicine and computer systems that have decision support software on them,
and it involves a change in incentive facing those --  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do doctors agree with you on this?  

    PETER ORSZAG:  I think the vast majority of doctors recognize that we
need to move toward a fee-for-value system rather than --  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Why do you think so many people -- not everybody,
clearly -- believed that you missed the boat in terms of cost containment
here, that, yes, you delivered more access but no you failed to get your
hands around cost containment.  

    PETER ORSZAG:  I think two explanations.  The first is that that third
bucket of trying to get at provider incentives is messy.  There’s not like
a simple here’s exactly how you do fee-for-value.  Here’s exactly how you
do pay-for-performance.  So it’s evolutionary.  It’s harder to explain.  

    And in fact on that point, I would just say for those who say there
should be more cost containment, my question is, what else would you have
done specifically?  What specifically what you have done?  And typically
you don’t get very much in terms of specific responses to that.  

    The second explanation is more of a political economy one, which is
that you always have this tension in health care between access and
cost/quality.  Different parts of the policy process lean one way or the
other.  

    The House leans more towards coverage, the Senate leans more towards
cost and quality.  I think not a small part of the explanation here is
during that summer of 2009, the Senate was delayed because of its internal
negotiations from the finance committee.  The only bill out there was the
House bill.  

    And the perceptions were formed based on that House bill.  And
legitimately that leaned way more towards coverage.  It didn’t have the
excise tax in it.  He didn’t have the Medicare commission in it.  A lot of
the things that the Senate then added and that were part of the final bill
weren’t there, and so legitimately people thought it kind of tilted in one
direction and those first impressions are hard to correct.  

Health care reform makes sense for the large majority of the American population.

Republicans are for some reasons voting against their own interests which seems very irrational.

[wellington1869]

Give me your tired, your poor huddled masses,
So I may throw them into Hudson Bay.
Or under a bus, at least.
How dare they set foot here, land of the rich and home of the fearful.
Those lazy bums!

--lady liberty as she turns off her torch so the immigrants dont find new york.

[keyboardlover]

I love the way keyboard is so enthusiastic about throwing the poor and the sick under the bus.  (So much for catholicism).

You should really run for office one day keyboard, you'll make sarah palin look like FDR.

If you can quote where I talked about throwing the poor and sick under the bus, I'd love to see it. There's nothing stopping them from getting healthcare but themselves. Anyone can get jobs and be successful in this country. Period.

[wellington1869]

Republicans are for some reasons voting against their own interests which seems very irrational.

worse, they're going to get some 40% of the nation to vote against their own interests.  You're going to see poor people without insurance going hurr durr big guvmnt big guvmnt! and voting for the insurance companies and their republican cronies.  

Its been done before. Its amazing to watch it happen.  The republican cynicism and cynical manipulation of the poor and sick is startling and hypnotizing to watch as it unfolds. Its as cynical and self-destructive and anti-american as when the far-left cheers for suicide bombers.

This is what our poor old nation is stuck between. The lunatic far right which has already taken over the RNC, and the far-left that daily heaps vitriol on a centrist like obama.

[keyboardlover]

worse, they're going to get some 40% of the nation to vote against their own interests.  You're going to see poor people without insurance going hurr durr big guvmnt big guvmnt! and voting for the insurance companies and their republican cronies.  

Its been done before. Its amazing to watch it happen.

Boy, you really seem to know a lot about politics.

[wellington1869]

Boy, you really seem to know a lot about politics.

you should try reading newspapers sometime

[keyboardlover]

you should try reading newspapers sometime

I read news every day. I can already tell which political slant the news you read has.

[maclover]

Hey, guess my slant.

Collectively spending more for less value[1] because got mine, **** you.

You know what would really solve this health care issue? Tax cuts.
Global warming? Tax cuts.
Financial Crisis? Tax cuts.
War on Terror? Tax cuts.
Gay Marriage? Tax cuts.
Recession? Tax cuts.
Pollution? Tax cuts.
Jobs? Tax cuts.

[ricercar]

Responsible and hard working people will benefit from HCR. Not just lazy bums!

Good. That means I don't have to decide which I am.

Anyone can get jobs and be successful in this country. Period.

People with disabilities will disagree with you there.

[keyboardlover]

People with disabilities will disagree with you there.

That's why we have disability benefits which are already provided by the government.

[ch_123]

I love the way keyboard is so enthusiastic about throwing the poor and the sick under the bus.  (So much for catholicism).

Hey, look at what Mother Teresa really did in Calcutta. Throwing the poor and sick under the bus is all part of the package. You get Sainthood if you throw enough of them... I hear it's a bit like a Catholic equivalent of an Xbox achievement.

[keyboardlover]

Hey, look at what Mother Teresa really did in Calcutta. Throwing the poor and sick under the bus is all part of the package. You get Sainthood if you throw enough of them... I hear it's a bit like a Catholic equivalent of an Xbox achievement.

I guess you view working to help the poor, sick, orphaned, and dying for 45 years as a bad thing...but then, it makes about as much sense as most of the other bull**** you spout on here.

I'm curious, since you like to criticize people who do good for others so much, what good have you ever done for anybody else?

[Shawn Stanford]

...but then, it makes about as much sense as most of the other bull**** you spout on here.

Pot, Kettle: Black, Over.

[itlnstln]

worse, they're going to get some 40% of the nation to vote against their own interests.  You're going to see poor people without insurance going hurr durr big guvmnt big guvmnt! and voting for the insurance companies and their republican cronies.  

Its been done before. Its amazing to watch it happen.  The republican cynicism and cynical manipulation of the poor and sick is startling and hypnotizing to watch as it unfolds. Its as cynical and self-destructive and anti-american as when the far-left cheers for suicide bombers.

This is Texas to a tee (not Texas Tea, that's something different).  We are one of, if not the, poorest state in the union, and we are probably the most Republican in country.  We have a population that desperately needs reformed healthcare, education, etc., but the dumbasses around here can't vote in their own best interest, and they keep wondering why healtcare costs go up, education gets worse, etc.  Hell, we have a group that is starting a protest against the state board of education because they feel that the history books have too much of a Muslim slant and don't preach Christianity enough. *facepalm*  Not surprising, though, since we are a state that is pushing for Creationism in Science class.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I guess you view working to help the poor, sick, orphaned, and dying for 45 years as a bad thing...but then, it makes about as much sense as most of the other bull**** you spout on here.

I'm guessing you have not actually read much about Teresa's practices. They're easy to characterize [and have been, even by some of her "employees"] as misguided, hypocritical and often dangerous at best. Personally, I'm also tending towards immoral, cruel, cynical and self-aggrandizing (ab)use of the unfortunate.

And unfortunately, there's some very influential Catholic subset that's still working like that today.

PS: Your "people can get whatever they want if they want it hard enough" is dangerous magical thinking that can easily lead you to indifference to or blaming of the unfortunate "they just don't WANT to get better!", ignorance of dangers "I WANT to stay healthy and in a job, so I don't HAVE to plan for when I get sick or lose my job", and when you eventually do end up without a job and money and sick, you can take comfort in the fact that it's all your own fault. It's just the same cruel idiocy that's in The Secret.

[phillip]

That's why we have disability benefits which are already provided by the government.

Why are those okay, and health care is not?

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Why are those okay, and health care is not?

Because disabled people are to be pitied, whereas sick people have only themselves to blame. Obviously.

[keyboardlover]

Because disabled people are to be pitied, whereas sick people have only themselves to blame. Obviously.

I've already explained my stance on it and why. And if that's what you think I said, you completely misinterpreted me (like most others who disagree with what I said). That statement in no way characterizes my stance.

I'm also tending towards immoral, cruel, cynical and self-aggrandizing (ab)use of the unfortunate

Examples plz?

PS: Your "people can get whatever they want if they want it hard enough" is dangerous magical thinking that can easily lead you to indifference to or blaming of the unfortunate "they just don't WANT to get better!", ignorance of dangers "I WANT to stay healthy and in a job, so I don't HAVE to plan for when I get sick or lose my job", and when you eventually do end up without a job and money and sick, you can take comfort in the fact that it's all your own fault.

Well, the folks I know who share my same beliefs have always landed on their feet in hard times. I've found the same to be true in my life. I guess you would take that as luck, but I firmly believe it's due to our values.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Examples plz?

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

Guess who said that. Those are not words of someone who's out to actually help people get better. It's IMHO a perfect example of what's wrong with her morality.

[keyboardlover]

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

Guess who said that. Those are not words of someone who's out to actually help people get better. It's IMHO a perfect example of what's wrong with her morality.

You obviously don't understand anything about Christianity - we have a concept that good always comes from suffering. I won't go into it much because I don't really care if you understand it or not but you are misinterpreting her.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

You obviously don't understand anything about Christianity - we have a concept that good always comes from suffering. I won't go into it much because I don't really care if you understand it or not but you are misinterpreting her.

I'm afraid I understand it a bit too well. I just don't agree with it at all. I also note that that quote is actually WORSE than what you profess. She's claiming it's GOOD for poor people to stay poor. YOU are only arguing they're not working hard enough to fix it.

By the way, here's some more criticism. http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/

[keyboardlover]

I'm afraid I understand it a bit too well. I just don't agree with it at all.
By the way, here's some more criticism. http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/

There are countless examples in the world of good resulting from bad, fortune resulting from misfortune to back up the concept. But I won't go into that. I can tell you already know how to use Google.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

There are countless examples in the world of good resulting from bad, fortune resulting from misfortune to back up the concept. But I won't go into that. I can tell you already know how to use Google.

Well, that explains a lot of your position, at least.

[wellington1869]

Well, the folks I know who share my same beliefs have always landed on their feet in hard times. I've found the same to be true in my life. I guess you would take that as luck, but I firmly believe it's due to our values.

I had a money-grubbing conservative cousin who used to say this about poor people. "Its their values". "If I were in their position i'd work hard and get a job! Why cant they just do that? Obviously they dont want to!"

Statements like that just reflect how little concept she had of the world outside her own life. And the fact that she's never faced real adversity in her own life.

Its people like that who get attracted to Palin-esque fear-mongering. "They're leeching off your tax dollars! The victims are the enemy!" "The most helpless folk are the biggest threat!"

Classic scapegoating. Its a form of human sacrifice to our gods.

I suppose we shouldnt be surprised by keyboard's lack of either economic sense or compassion (helping the poor and sick is as much an economic investment as anything else). His views are probably more common out there than we like to admit. After all, people keep showing up to hear Palin talk.


keyboard you keep missing the point. No doubt some kids like living on the street (for now).  And no doubt some people who are currently poor are capable of learning new skills and lifting themselves out of poverty. But those are the easy cases, even tho those are the ones you keep fixating upon.  The question is how does a society deal with all the others? Throw them under the bus? Thats what you've suggested so far, and thats what people here are responding to.  You keep saying you havent said anything about solutions -- well lets hear it. Whats your solution? You do know there are some 10% of americans right now who cant find a job who are actively looking according to government unemployment statistics. Should we take them off government help? And the 50 million uninsured americans and their children - should we repeal healthcare? Whats your solution? If you dont see the help either in economic terms as an investment, or in terms of simple compassion, then how would you like to view the problem?

[keyboardlover]

I had a money-grubbing conservative cousin who used to say this about poor people. "Its their values". "If I were in their position i'd work hard and get a job! Why cant they just do that? Obviously they dont want to!"

Statements like that just reflect how little concept she had of the world outside her own life. And the fact that she's never faced real adversity in her own life.

Unlike your cousin I and many people I know have faced adversity like you've most likely never known. And instead of whining or crying about it or admitting defeat we rose above our challenges. This includes people who were born poor and came from nothing. So we know from experience that anything can be done with hard work and drive. And I'm the one missing the point?

I won't remark on the rest of your rant as it's nothing but fodder. I think my point has been made.