Author Topic: healthcare benefits starting to kick in  (Read 70639 times)

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Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #300 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 09:00:26 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227583
Because healthcare is neither affordable nor available to everyone, despite their best efforts. That's what the reform is supposed to fix, and it will.


And we have come full circle.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #301 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 09:17:27 »
Is that what they call a "circular argument?"


Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #302 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 09:28:43 »
I think this is why, when all is said and done, it all comes down to opinion.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #303 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 10:26:55 »
Quote from: kishy;227607
Indeed.

And one is clearly wrong :)

Exactly.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #304 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 10:27:12 »
Quote from: kishy
Indeed.

And one is clearly wrong :)

Damn, son.


Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #305 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:22:33 »
If your reaction to my saying
Quote
Because healthcare is neither affordable nor available to everyone, despite their best efforts. That's what the reform is supposed to fix, and it will.
is the following:
Quote from: keyboardlover;227589
I think this is why, when all is said and done, it all comes down to opinion.
then we are left with two very simple 'opinions':

1. Everyone deserves access to basic healthcare, regardless of their station in life.

2. Only those who can afford access to healthcare deserve it.

And, unless I've been on a five-day acid trip, you're of opinion '2'..?
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #306 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:28:17 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227626
If your reaction to my saying  is the following: then we are left with two very simple 'opinions':

1. Everyone deserves access to basic healthcare, regardless of their station in life.

2. Only those who can afford access to healthcare deserve it.

And, unless I've been on a five-day acid trip, you're of opinion '2'..?

2.
...and those who can't are already taken care of by programs we already have and pay taxes for. We discussed this already man!

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #307 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:36:15 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227629
2.
...and those who can't are already taken care of by programs we already have and pay taxes for. We discussed this already man!

WTF? No, they're not. My son is a perfect example, as are 2 million other college graduates with no work: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/CutCollegeCosts/no-one-needs-you-class-of-2010.aspx?page=1.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #308 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:42:42 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227631
WTF? No, they're not. My son is a perfect example, as are 2 million other college graduates with no work: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/CutCollegeCosts/no-one-needs-you-class-of-2010.aspx?page=1.


The programs are not perfect, and as I said, should be improved...not cut like Obama is doing.

Anyway, regarding the jobs we need to create more. See my bit on capitalism restraints and the importance of increased competition in our market. If there are enough, frankly the kids have no excuse. If they want to be lazy and live at home with mom and dad and not work (like Nancy Pelosi is recommending), I don't want to pay taxes for their healthcare.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:46:18 by keyboardlover »

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #309 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 11:58:44 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227633
The programs are not perfect, and as I said, should be improved...not cut like Obama is doing.

Again: WTF? Do you bother to read what you're recommending as supporting your positions, or do you assume that nobody else will?

Anyway, what should hard-working, capable and ambitious people do for healthcare while they're unemployed?
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 12:02:55 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #310 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 12:01:50 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227644
Again: WTF? Do you bother to read what you're recommending as supporting your positions, or do you assume that nobody else will?


Good call...bad resource. I had a good one for that issue but I can't remember it now. Anyway, regarding the jobs it's so different depending on your industry and experience right now. I have a good one, yet I get contacted by anywhere from 1-5 recruiters on a daily basis telling me they have openings and asking if I'm interested. I guess I'm just...lucky? No, I'm in a good industry, and I have marketable skills which I worked hard to get.

Edit: here's a better source.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #311 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 14:51:17 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227646
Anyway, regarding the jobs it's so different depending on your industry and experience right now. I have a good one, yet I get contacted by anywhere from 1-5 recruiters on a daily basis telling me they have openings and asking if I'm interested. I guess I'm just...lucky? No, I'm in a good industry, and I have marketable skills which I worked hard to get.

What about the 300 million Americans who aren't you?
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #312 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 14:53:54 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford
What about the 300 million Americans who aren't you?


They should also make an effort to get educated and experience and make themselves marketable. Of course, I also think that doing what you want to do is extremely important. It just doesn't always pay well.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #313 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 14:56:35 »
Ask all those Wal-Mart employees about their health insurance.

Oh wait...


Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #314 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 14:57:02 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227716
They should also make an effort to get educated and experience and make themselves marketable.

And what if their best efforts or the job market fail them?
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #315 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:03:08 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227646
Good call...bad resource. I had a good one for that issue but I can't remember it now. Edit: here's a better source.

Better? Not so much:
Quote
Getting back to the Truth-O-Meter, the 60 Plus ad says that the new health care law "will cut $500 billion from Medicare. That will hurt the quality of our care." The ad loses points for accuracy because the $500 billion aren't actual cuts but reductions to future spending for a program that will still grow significantly in the next 10 years. The ad also says those cuts will "hurt the quality" of seniors' care. But we find that to be a highly contentious subject, and the 60 Plus ad doesn't hint at any of the ways that the reductions are ways to make Medicare more efficient. Finally, the ad doesn't mention any of the benefits to seniors, such as improved prescription drug coverage. The ad seems more intent on attacking the health care law than accurately describing this complicated piece of legislation. Because it leaves critical facts out of its description in a way that gives a misleading impression, we rate the statement Barely True.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #316 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:03:14 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford
And what if their best efforts or the job market fail them?


Everyone should take responsibility and be accountable for themselves.
I can't be expected to be responsible for anyone else's failure or success - nor should anyone else.

If it's the job market - see 'we need to create more jobs and healthy competition' via capitalism - which I mentioned at least 3 times now.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #317 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:08:28 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227724
Everyone should take responsibility and be accountable for themselves. I can't be expected to be responsible for anyone else's failure or success - nor should anyone else.

So, we're back to Opinion #2, which is the essence of Conservatism: I've got mine, you can go **** yourself.

Awesome. You're a fine American...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #318 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:25:28 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford
So, we're back to Opinion #2, which is the essence of Conservatism: I've got mine, you can go **** yourself.

Awesome. You're a fine American...


Here's a military analogy:

You know how the Marines all throw their rifles up in the air at the same time and catch them? Each marine only has to catch their own rifle. Can you imagine what would happen if one of them was like 'Oh ****...I can't do it today. Can you catch my rifle for me?' Somehow, I just don't think that would fly. They are expected to throw and catch only their rifle - not anyone else's.

No matter what you think, it's NOT 'Got mine, **** everyone else'.
It's 'I got mine by making the right decisions - if someone else can't do the same, it ain't my fault.'

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #319 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:33:52 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227736
Here's a military analogy: You know how the Marines all throw their rifles up in the air at the same time and catch them? Each marine only has to catch their own rifle. Can you imagine what would happen if one of them was like 'Oh ****...I can't do it today. Can you catch my rifle for me?' Somehow, I just don't think that would fly. They are expected to throw and catch only their rifle - not anyone else's.

Proof you know **** about the military or the Brotherhood of Arms. Shut up, now.

Quote from: keyboardlover;227736
It's 'I got mine by making the right decisions - if someone else can't do the same, it ain't my fault.'

Here's a military analogy for you: Why should  I put my ass on the line to defend your freedoms? If you can't or won't defend them for yourself, not my problem.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:36:10 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #320 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:35:44 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227743
Here's a military analogy for you: Why should  I put my ass on the line to defend your freedoms? If you can't or won't defend them for yourself, not my problem.


Damn.


Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #321 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:36:40 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227743
Here's a military analogy for you: Why should  I put my ass on the line to defend your freedoms? If you can't or won't defend them for yourself, not my problem.

Because you chose too? And anyway I can and will defend them for myself - but an organized military has greater strength from a strategic advantage. That's why we have one. Bad example.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #322 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:37:39 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227743
Here's a military analogy for you: Why should  I put my ass on the line to defend your freedoms? If you can't or won't defend them for yourself, not my problem.


i'd agree with that 100%. One of my biggest pet peeves is the laziness of my fellow liberals (never mind the selfishness of conservatives). The laziness of liberals is complicit with the selfishness of conservatives, in a lot of ways.

Obama just said something along those lines.  As I keep saying, if the tea partiers win, in a democracy, we honestly have only ourselves to blame and no one else.

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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #323 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:38:23 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227745
Because you chose too? And anyway I can and will defend them for myself

Nut up or shut up.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #324 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:40:15 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227747
Nut up or shut up.

Of course you're not in the Marines so I can see that and a lot of things going over your head...

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #325 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:43:43 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227751
Of course you're not in the Marines so I can see that and a lot of things going over your head...

Wrong.

Again.
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Offline Co-Op

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« Reply #326 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:45:18 »


GET A ROOM, YOU TWO!

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #327 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:45:54 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford
Wrong.

Again.


About what exactly?

Quote from: Co-op

GET A ROOM, YOU TWO!


Lol...that's why I had asked people to PM me (to cut down on the trolling)

Welly PMed me but only asked me if I went on OCN and "A/S/L"?

Since I don't want him and pedobear climbin' through my windows & snatchin' my people up, I didn't give him that information ;)
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:51:13 by keyboardlover »

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #328 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:52:14 »


You were saying about things going over my head..?
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:55:56 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #329 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:54:59 »
Oh...thought you were Army...my bad.

(Hope you're not too offended...I have some Marine friends so I know why you would be).

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #330 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:57:19 »
And, anyway, what we were talking about was why I should defend your freedoms when you're too lazy, not ambitious enough or haven't made the right choices to defend your own...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #331 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:59:02 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227765
And, anyway, what we were talking about was why I should defend your freedoms when you're too lazy, not ambitious enough or haven't made the right choices to defend your own...


Actually believe it or not I wanted to join the Marines when I was in high school. But I have some health issues and when I discussed them with the recruiter on the phone, he told me the corps wasn't for me. I suspect he was right...everyone has their place in this world don't they?

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #332 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:02:01 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227768
Actually believe it or not I wanted to join the Marines when I was in high school. But I have some health issues and when I discussed them with the recruiter on the phone, he told me the corps wasn't for me. I suspect he was right...everyone has their place in this world don't they?

A tough break. So, why should I defend your freedoms? Your health issues aren't my problem...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #333 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:02:56 »
Quote from: kishy
Ah, pre-existing conditions.

Exactly the sort of thing that won't be declined with your new system.


They're not declined with my existing insurance either.

Quote from: Shawn Stanford

A tough break. So, why should I defend your freedoms? Your health issues aren't my problem...


Already explained that one...because you chose to join the military.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:05:10 by keyboardlover »

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #334 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:03:18 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227764
Oh...thought you were Army...my bad.(Hope you're not too offended...I have some Marine friends so I know why you would be).

I am in the Army, and I'm just as proud to serve in this uniform as I ever was to put on Dress Blues.
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #335 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:05:01 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227777
They're not declined with my existing insurance either.

They would have been if you'd had a break in coverage. Even a single day.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #336 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:05:37 »
Son of a *****!  You mean my tax dollars are paying Shawn Stafford to defend keyboardlover's lame ass and not just mine?!?!?  Mother****er.


Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #337 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:07:47 »
I think privatization of healthcare makes more sense than privatization of military (anarchy). But that's just me.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #338 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:12:48 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227781
I think privatization of healthcare makes more sense than privatization of military (anarchy). But that's just me.


Also not what we're talking about. You posited above that other people's failure to take care of themselves was not your problem. I'm saying that that logically extends to other forms of care, such as my defending your freedoms when you are unable to do so.

Defend your position.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #339 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:20:48 »
Quote from: itlnstln;227780
Son of a *****!  You mean my tax dollars are paying Shawn Stafford to defend keyboardlover's lame ass and not just mine?!?!?  Mother****er.


lol! my thoughts exactly

besides pedo-bear is seriously hot for kl's ass. Seriously. he's hunting.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #340 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:23:38 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227768
he told me the corps wasn't for me


DADT again? damn that supreme court.

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #341 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:28:36 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;227783
Also not what we're talking about. You posited above that other people's failure to take care of themselves was not your problem. I'm saying that that logically extends to other forms of care, such as my defending your freedoms when you are unable to do so.

Defend your position.


Read what I said, then think about it. It is my position.

"Logically", this doesn't extend to the military, since privatized military would be anarchy. I'm pretty sure most of the nation would not want a privatized military.

****in logic! How does it work?
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:40:27 by keyboardlover »

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #342 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:34:53 »
The main reason why I oppose Obamacare is the government just can't afford it. We're already over $12,000,000,000,000,000.00 (Or $12 trillion) in debt and they think we can afford to spend another $1,000,000,000,000,000.00 on health care? Social Security, Medicare, and other welfare programs are already shaping up to cause a significant crisis later on (Many estimate unfunded liabilities exceed $100,000,000,000,000,000.00). I feel the costs of this health care reform in the long run will far outweigh the benifits. We bailed out the banks and automakers, and our grandchildren will be bailing out the government, thanks to us.
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« Reply #343 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:42:51 »
Quote from: wellington1869;227789
DADT again? damn that supreme court.


You're getting wittier...keep working on it! You'll get there!

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #344 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:43:10 »
Quote from: ripster;227796
During the ceasefire I would simply like to respond to Lam47's post, oh, like 10 pages ago.


omg, lammy's back?! Cool!!

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #345 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:43:43 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;227800
You're getting wittier...keep working on it! You'll get there!


your ass is looking rounder and firmer... I'll get there...

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #346 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:47:28 »
Quote from: wellington1869;227802
your ass is looking rounder and firmer... I'll get there...



+

=

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #347 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:00:59 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;227794
The main reason why I oppose Obamacare is the government just can't afford it.

Okay, that's different from saying that the poor or unlucky don't deserve healthcare. This is based on ignorance, not on being a ****. Ignorance we can fix...

My wife has worked her entire career in healthcare (pharmaceuticals, healthcare-industry data systems, insurance providers), and she will tell you that you're already paying for universal healthcare, you're just doing it in an uncontrolled way.

Follow along...

Everyone in this country is guaranteed emergency room care. If you walk into an emergency room at any hospital in this country, the have to treat you until you are medically stable regardless of your ability to pay. That is an indisputable fact. That is the law.

When someone takes emergency room treatment and doesn't pay (for whatever reason), any costs the hospital can't recoup from various government programs for the indigent it then spreads among those who can pay in the form of additional overhead costs. These overhead costs go into everything: room costs, food costs, pharmaceuticals, supplies, etc.

So, you can see that you're already paying for healthcare for the indigent. You're paying in the form of hospital costs that go against your taxes and against your healthcare premiums via hospital charges.

Healthcare reform intends to do several things to solve this problem (and others).

First: By giving people access to non-emergency care, it encourages them to take well visits with a doctor to stay healthy, and to handle routine illnesses via doctor visits before they become emergencies.

Second: Since all the costs are being paid for, they hospital has to justify everything they charge, they can't hide actual costs in general overhead fees. Believe it or not: hospitals and doctors will actually steal from insurance companies via overcharging if they can get away with it. This gives them less of a chance to get away with it.

Another interesting fact about healthcare: 90% of healthcare costs in this country go to 10% of people: the elderly and the permanently disabled. And the vast majority of that goes to the elderly. If you know anything about risk pools, you know that in order for any sort of insurance costs to be reasonable, you have to have a big pool of people, most of whom are going to be cheap to pay for.

That's why privatization won't work. We have a massive bubble of Medicare costs coming as the Boomers age. Unless pretty much everyone in the country is part of the insurance pool that supports their costs, we're going to have to let them die in the streets or break the bank.

Costs will come down, but only if the government has oversight on enough of a percentage of the population to make itself felt. My wife says that Medicare is one of the most cost-effective and cost-sensitive programs out there. They absolutely get their money's worth out of the providers!

There's a lot of bull**** flying around about government bureacracy and how the government can't run a healthcare system, but that's also smoke and mirrors. That bureacracy already exists, both within and without the government; we call it the health insurance industry. And the government isn't going to 'run' the system, they merely want to make sure that everyone is getting paid for. We have that today: we call it Medicare. And, there are a lot of folks and their families being taken care of my the DOD health care system, TriCare and the VA; the government has a little experience doing this sort of stuff.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #348 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:04:15 »
Let's just say that if the government can't switch over TV without the program going broke, I don't even want to think about what they've got in store for health care.
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #349 on: Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:48:04 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;227816
Let's just say that if the government can't switch over TV without the program going broke, I don't even want to think about what they've got in store for health care.
WTF? Do you even read your posts before you click 'Submit'? I provide you with concrete reasons why healthcare reform is necessary and good and all you can say is this?



We're done here. Return to your lives, Citizens.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:51:32 by Shawn Stanford »
The Brat Prince of COBOL