Thinkpad or Macbook?

[iMav]

Recently sold my MBP and my Mac mini and will be purchasing a new personal laptop (I have a Dell Latitude E6410 (i7, 8GB ram) for work).  

I want a small powerhouse.  The Lenovo TP X201 can be had with a 12.1" screen, 8GB ram, and an i7 CPU.   You got to move up to a 15.4" MBP to get something better than a Core2Duo CPU.  Of course, all that may change this wednesday (Apple "back to Mac" media event).

I have a habit of switching back and forth between Macs and PCs (w/ linux)...so I am leaning towards the Thinkpad.  But if there is something exciting announced this wednesday, who knows?  

[keyboardlover]

Last year I got an awesome Black Friday deal on a Thinkpad W500 mobile workstation. If you're considering a Thinkpad it's definitely worth it to wait and see what kind of black friday deals they will have this year.

I love it and it's a beast:

$1,530.21 incl. tax & FREE shipping

Intel CR2DUO PR P8700(2.53GHZ)
GEN WIN 7 PRFS 64 US EN
15.4 WUXGA TFT
ATIMBLITYFGLV5700W/512VR
8GBPC3-8500 1067MHZ1DIMM
SBBULTRA NAV(TR.POINT+TOUCHPAD)
INTEGRATED CAMERA
128GB SOLIDSTATE DRV,SATA
DVD REC8XMAXDUL.ULT.S.SATA
EXPR.CARD SLOT/PCCARDSLOT
INT.WIFI LINK5300
INTWIRELESSWIDEAR.NETW.UPG
SBB 6 CELL LI-ION BATTERY

[Ekaros]

Thinkpad... I have been thinking if I could get tablet for resonable price with right layout, maybe after next summer...

[wap32]

I'd definitely go for a Thinkpad, the X201s is really awesome.

Another option could be the T410s; not as small, but still small.

[ch_123]

Recently sold my MBP and my Mac mini and will be purchasing a new personal laptop (I have a Dell Latitude E6410 (i7, 8GB ram) for work).  

I want a small powerhouse.  The Lenovo TP X201 can be had with a 12.1" screen, 8GB ram, and an i7 CPU.   You got to move up to a 15.4" MBP to get something better than a Core2Duo CPU.  Of course, all that may change this wednesday (Apple "back to Mac" media event).

I have a habit of switching back and forth between Macs and PCs (w/ linux)...so I am leaning towards the Thinkpad.  But if there is something exciting announced this wednesday, who knows?  

The MBP line was upgraded over summer. The reason why the C2D is still used in the 13" Mac is to do with a licensing dispute between Intel and nVidia, which prohibits the latter from making motherboard chipsets for current generation Intel CPUs. This is why the 15" and 17" models went from having an integrated nVidia chipset and a discrete nVidia GPU to having an integrated Intel chipset and discrete nVidia GPU. Long story short - don't get your hopes up about seeing a 13" MBP with a fast CPU and good GPU any time soon.

MBPs are quite nice, but I personally have two gripes with them -

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily). A friend of mine spilled water over her MBP's touchpad, which caused it to screw up. Last I checked, a replacement MBP touchpad was something like $70-90 on eBay. Compare this with the Thinkpad where a new keyboard/trackpoint is around $30 or so, and a new touchpad around the same. The manual provides intricate details on how to replace everything, and the PNs for all the various parts. It's also easy to replace the battery on them, compared with the MBP where you have to do all sorts of warranty-voiding hacks when your laptop's battery inevitably dies.

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

[chongyixiong]

If computing power is not a deal-breaker, the older generation Core 2 Duos are just as powerful (if not, more powerful) than the current i3 processors.

I have a C2D P8600 and it has nothing short but snappy throughout, although at a higher TDP of 25W as compared to the newer's 18W I suppose?

Anyway, the Thinkpad X200 is just what you need, I got the X200 because I wanted to be able to swap out the 12.1" crappy TN panel with a Boe Hydis AFFS (IPS) panel. Now I got a really advanced mini powerhouse, with the additional snappiness of an Intel 80GB SSD.

Sweet.

Pics of the process as detailed here

[wap32]

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

A few friends of mine have Macbook pros, so lately I've been getting more acquainted with them. I find the touchpad to be nice.
Drag-and-drop is a little more cumbersome that with a regular touchpad, but doable.
The multitouch gestures are useful, although a little gimmicky; I can easily configure similar functionality on linux with half the fuss.

All in all the hardware isn't bad (except the mirror-like screen) but I find that what gets in the way is OS X itself.

[J888www]

Anyway, the Thinkpad X200 is just what you need, I got the X200 because I wanted to be able to swap out the 12.1" crappy TN panel with a Boe Hydis AFFS (IPS) panel. Now I got a really advanced mini powerhouse, with the additional snappiness of an Intel 80GB SSD.

 I went along the same road with a T60p, I upgraded/exchanged everything possible even right down to replacing the little CMOS battery. Already posted somewhere on site so I won't repeat the details. So my preference is Thinkpad.

[ricercar]

abide. the announcement is mere days away.

[iMav]

abide. the announcement is mere days away.

I'm not making any decision till I see what is announced on wed.

[TexasFlood]

Just got a new T410.  Haven't really started using it yet but expect to like it given my long positive track record with Thinkpads.  Will soon see how reality lines up with my expectations.

[microsoft windows]

I'd recommend getting the laptop that runs Windows.

[iMav]

I'd recommend getting the laptop that runs Windows.

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily). A friend of mine spilled water over her MBP's touchpad, which caused it to screw up. Last I checked, a replacement MBP touchpad was something like $70-90 on eBay. Compare this with the Thinkpad where a new keyboard/trackpoint is around $30 or so, and a new touchpad around the same. The manual provides intricate details on how to replace everything, and the PNs for all the various parts. It's also easy to replace the battery on them, compared with the MBP where you have to do all sorts of warranty-voiding hacks when your laptop's battery inevitably dies.

I hate them for the same reason, but to be fair you can get repair parts + labor fairly cheap if you skip the genius bar and go to one of a few hundred authorized Mac repair dealers around the nation that are 3rd parties.

You wouldn't catch me using a Mac, but a repair that was over $1,000 at an Apple store was $200 at a 3rd party authorized tech when my friend had an issue.

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Battery life and Windows drivers on Macs generally suck. And I hear this from good friends who are very pro-Apple.

They admit that even compared to non-Mac machines Macs make inferior computers when running Windows.

[EverythingIBM]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/compare/pc-vs-mac.aspx

I can't decide between a mac or a PC. What ever will I do?

It's funny how microsoft is adopting the "PC" moniker so much to almost a zealous extent. *Technically* there are no more "PCs" after IBM lost the market. It's just a throng of clone manufacturers trying to get a stranglehold.

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

[microsoft windows]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Hey! That site wasn't about Windows Vista or Windows 98!

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

Show Image

Hey! That site wasn't about Windows Vista or Windows 98!

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

Show Image

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

[keyboardlover]

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

Yes...GOLF CLAP - "Men at Work" classic movie!

[TexasFlood]

Yes...GOLF CLAP - "Men at Work" classic movie!

3/4 credit! 1/2 for getting the movie right.  1/4 for the golf clap.  I didn't specifically ask about it but have to give you credit.  Only missing 1/4 for not specifically addressing "the nasty".  Well done though.

[keyboardlover]

3/4 credit! 1/2 for getting the movie right.  1/4 for the golf clap.  I didn't specifically ask about it but have to give you credit.  Only missing 1/4 for not specifically addressing "the nasty".  Well done though.

Sorry I was a kid when I saw it...let's see, was that when they cleaned out the garbage truck because it was so nasty?

[TexasFlood]

Sorry I was a kid when I saw it...let's see, was that when they cleaned out the garbage truck because it was so nasty?

Close enough for full credit.  Sheen stops the truck at the end of the route, turns to Estevez and says, "It's time to do the nasty."  Then, you see then in the back of the garbage truck, covering their faces, pushing all the slime and debris from the bottom of the bin while shouting "NASTY!", "NASTY!", "NASTY!".

[ch_123]

Battery life and Windows drivers on Macs generally suck. And I hear this from good friends who are very pro-Apple.

They admit that even compared to non-Mac machines Macs make inferior computers when running Windows.

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

[mike]

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily).

Having spent a bit of time digging around the insides of my own MBP this weekend, I'd say you're right. But perhaps it applies to a greater or lesser extent to all laptops; certainly once you reach a 'certain age', eyesight makes working on really small screws and connectors very tricky.

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I

I'm firmly convinced that touchpads are one of those things that you either like or dislike; I hate the damn things. Although having been forced to use this one periodically, it is possible to get more used to it

[vyshane]

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

I'm not a fan of trackpads, but Apple's implementation is the best one I've used. It's actually usable enough that I don't get the urge to connect a mouse to the laptop. Precision is better using a mouse, but scrolling speed and accuracy is much better on the trackpad. Kinetic scrolling just feels natural. Think scrolling through the iPhone's address book. It's basically the same, but on the trackpad.

As for drag and drop, try to use an Apple trackpad the same way you'd use a normal trackpad. Click with your thumb, and drag using your middle or index finger. Works the same. Works better actually, since the trackpad is so big. You get to drag more before having to lift your finger and re centre.

[microsoft windows]

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

That guy's pretty silly. Why get an overpriced Mac just to run Windows? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper just to build your own PC that meets the same specifications.

[VentiLator]

if you use linux, go for the thinkpad, you'll be rewarded with good hardwaresupport.

afaik driver support on mac is so so since they use theire own biosversions etc.

but imo this is also a moral issue, i'm not sure if i want to support such restrictive, proprietary methods.
the hard- and software could both be the best on earth, it'd be still apple getting my money

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

Anecdotes galore. It's tough to say.

I have several friends who are Mac devout. One switched back to PC recently despite liking OS X better (he said Windows 7 was almost as good) due to hardware issues and the need to run Windows well. He went for a ThinkPad.

[ch_123]

That guy's pretty silly. Why get an overpriced Mac just to run Windows? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper just to build your own PC that meets the same specifications.

With a Mac Pro? Not necessarily. I've looked into it. It's somewhat cheaper (if you consider the relative price difference as opposed to the absolute price difference) but the Mac Pro will still have some nice features that are nearly impossible to get on a self made PC (such as hot-swappable hard drives)

Nontheless, on the balance, the guy doesn't play a lot of games, so he spends most of his time in OS X anyway.

[didjamatic]

Thinkpad.  For my use it is more versatile, durable, customizable and depending on options, more powerful.  Some can debate those but even with those things aside, this seals the deal:



Trackpoint + Scissor > Touchpad + Chiclet

[timw4mail]

Thinkpad.  For my use it is more versatile, durable, customizable and depending on options, more powerful.  Some can debate those but even with those things aside, this seals the deal:

Show Image

Trackpoint + Scissor > Touchpad + Chiclet

I'd argue that the opposite is true. Besides, they are both scissor switches, and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

[ch_123]

and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

Is that a frequent occurrence for you?

[timw4mail]

Is that a frequent occurrence for you?

No, but I've seen missing keys on a lot of laptops.

[wap32]

With a Mac Pro? Not necessarily. I've looked into it. It's somewhat cheaper (if you consider the relative price difference as opposed to the absolute price difference) but the Mac Pro will still have some nice features that are nearly impossible to get on a self made PC (such as hot-swappable hard drives)

Nontheless, on the balance, the guy doesn't play a lot of games, so he spends most of his time in OS X anyway.

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

[TexasFlood]

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

[timw4mail]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

SATA is hot-swappable :/

[ch_123]

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

Do you have a case that facilitates this properly? With a SATA backplane?

[TexasFlood]

SATA is hot-swappable :/

Well what are devices like these for then?

[wap32]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

Yes, but the motherboard still needs to support hot-plugging.
In my case I don't have hot swap trays but I have on many occasions plugged/unplugged IDE or SATA devices while the PC was running.

SATA is hot-swappable :/

This I did not know. I thought that feature was controller/motherboard dependent.

[didjamatic]

Interesting, I thought hot-plug/hot-swap was part of the SATA spec

[wap32]

Do you have a case that facilitates this properly? With a SATA backplane?

Isn't this just a matter of buying a few drive trays? like this?

[ch_123]

Sure I guess, but by the time you buy a few of those, the price gap has narrowed further.

There's some other stuff, but unfortunately I can't think of it off the top of my head.

[TexasFlood]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

Yes, but the motherboard still needs to support hot-plugging.
In my case I don't have hot swap trays but I have on many occasions plugged/unplugged IDE or SATA devices while the PC was running.

Like an AHCI option in the BIOS SATA settings?

SATA is hot-swappable :/

This I did not know. I thought that feature was controller/motherboard dependent.

I thought you needed a tray such as this one.

[wap32]

Sure I guess, but by the time you buy a few of those, the price gap has narrowed further.

There's some other stuff, but unfortunately I can't think of it off the top of my head.

Yeah, that's true. But one could argue that the Mac Pro doesn't exactly "facilitate access" either, you sill have to open the case to access the drives =)
Either way, while it can be useful now and then, I don't see hot-swapping as being that important as to be the deal maker/breaker when choosing mac vs. pc.

Like an AHCI option in the BIOS SATA settings?

I thought you needed a tray such as this one.

You do if you want easy access, but assuming the motherboard/controller copes with it, you can just plug/unplug the devices with the PC running.

[TexasFlood]

Interesting, I thought hot-plug/hot-swap was part of the SATA spec

I think you're right.  I've read that it includes considerations such as the ground pins are longer than the others so the ground pins connect first and disconnect last avoiding a floating ground.  I think the key is that you have drivers installed which disable or flush cache and power the drive down before removing it.  On a Windows system it should show up in the tray that can be "safely removed" just like a usb flash drive.  I guess a hot swap tray or "sled" isn't required, but something like this would sure make things a lot more convenient.

[ch_123]

Yeah, that's true. But one could argue that the Mac Pro doesn't exactly "facilitate access" either, you sill have to open the case to access the drives =)

Opening the side of the case is pretty easy, I wouldnt really consider it effort at all.

I don't see hot-swapping as being that important as to be the deal maker/breaker when choosing mac vs. pc.

Well, when you get into the rarefied heights of €3,000 computers, I want bang for my figurative (and literal) buck...

At the hotswap thing - while SATA can support it, you really wouldnt want to yank out the standard connectors while the system was on, it would not end well for the hard drive, the computer, and probably your health as well...

[wap32]

Opening the side of the case is pretty easy, I wouldnt really consider it effort at all.

I was thinking more along the lines that if you do hot-swap frequently, opening/closing the case, or keeping the case constantly open isn't ideal. Not exactly what you'd want from a €3000 computer.

Well, when you get into the rarefied heights of €3,000 computers, I want bang for my figurative (and literal) buck...

At the hotswap thing - while SATA can support it, you really wouldnt want to yank out the standard connectors while the system was on, it would not end well for the hard drive, the computer, and probably your health as well...

I thought this was more or less the definition of hot-plugging.

Although I wouldn't recommend yanking, if you double check everything is unmounted and just unplug the cables from the drive, you shouldn't have anything to fear.
After all, thats the same thing that happens when you pull a regular hot-swap tray, except its on a tray...

[EverythingIBM]

I'd argue that the opposite is true. Besides, they are both scissor switches, and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

lol?

How is the opposite true when the thinkpad has more options? It has a trackpoint AND a touchpad... with so many extra buttons that can be assigned to things such as ctrl+z. You *cannot* do that on a macbook as the design philosophy of Apple is watered-down ultra simplistic stuff with NO options or customization; reducing to simplicity even when it gets in the way of production and use (such as lacking context buttons: I laughed at when the designers of Myst had to keep hitting Ctrl to right click, suckers).

Did you ever try pulling off a thinkpad key? I would smash my thinkpad's keyboard [T60p] and swipe it with clothes vigorously to clean it, NONE of the keys came off: my friend would laugh at me and say "you can only do that with a thinkpad." The trackpoint did, but that's expected. They also don't get "snagged" or anything like that. Besides, how would you snag a keyboard in a recess? That's like saying I might snag one of my model M keys...

The macbook keyboards on the other hand... they are silver plastic pieces of junk made for aesthetics and not *practical use*. My T60p's keyboard felt like a *decent* desktop one, I haven't had such a good keyboard on a laptop before: and apparently never will again because lenovo is adopting Apple's stupid chiclet keys (which, both apple and lenovo should have learned from the PCjr that chiclet is not the way to go).

I just find it ludicrous that anyone would defend a macbook keyboard, they're horrible! I'd rather use a C64 keyboard... and that's saying something. At least the key caps are actual key caps.

[microsoft windows]

The keytops on the Apple keyboards today (the Chiclet kind) are also much closer together than those of conventional keyboards, causing me to make a lot of type-O's. Not to mention lots of finger pain from all that hard bottoming out.