Author Topic: kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations  (Read 89761 times)

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Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 15:21:14 »
Quote from: input nirvana;473138
Doubleshot keys have a shorter "skirt" or the "sides of the key cap" than the singleshots.
Good point. I will switch to stem-relative measurements in the diagrams.

Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #51 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 16:48:55 »
I measured keys from my KB120, though not as thoroughly (samples of each profile rather than every key). I also measured the stems on the KB130, which I had incorrectly assumed were all the same depth below the skirt, and heights in the diagrams are now relative to the stem rather than the skirt. I will likely measure my Advantage before year's end.




Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #52 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:23:54 »
Comprehensive!

I'm updating your images in the Split Kinesis mod article.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 19:22:29 »
Code: [Select]

   KB120                  KB130                  Advantage
   Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk     Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk     Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk
P0 285 320 -90            340 380 -40            345 375 -40        
P1 435 490 -10 74 85    475 550 -55 75 88    500 550 -45 80 85
P2 340 350  -5 66 88    400 425 -55 73 88    405 425 -40 72 88
P3 275 250 -10 67 85    350 335 -40 71 88    345 325 -35 69 88
P4 275 210  -5 61 83    350 290 -60 70 88    340 285 -40 69 88
P5 255 205 -10 62 85    380 280 -40 71 88    375 285 -40 69 88
P6 355 305 -10 63 88    415 275 -45 71 88    375 285 -40 69 88
P7 355 215 -10 63 83    415 300 -45 70 88    380 285 -40 69 88



Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 20:33:02 »
You confirm P5 and P6 are the same on the Advantage. What is the serial # of your Advantage?

I'm surprised there is a key cap difference from the 130 to the Advantage.

EDIT---I guess different key cap manufacturer, some specifications not crucial, the degree of slope seems the same? Height of key top on switch should be the same?

Now to see if all the key caps can be acquired as 'standard' key caps from sources....a few with the very high 'skirts' wouldn't be too crucial I think...
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 December 2011, 01:35:17 by input nirvana »
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Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 09:44:57 »
Quote from: input nirvana;474109
You confirm P5 and P6 are the same on the Advantage. What is the serial # of your Advantage?
Model KB500USB-bkl Serial# 51919UB
Model KB132MPC Serial# 30614EM
Model 120 Serial# 20958

Quote
EDIT---I guess different key cap manufacturer
Although I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.

Quote
some specifications not crucial, the degree of slope seems the same? Height of key top on switch should be the same?
I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).

Quote
Now to see if all the key caps can be acquired as 'standard' key caps from sources....a few with the very high 'skirts' wouldn't be too crucial I think...
I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 December 2011, 18:13:30 by kps »

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 10:47:32 »
Quote from: kps;474382
Model# KB500USB-bkl Serial# 51919UB
I believe my KB132MPC is 30xxx.


Although I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.

 I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).

I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.

Cherry switches wearing: Are you referring to the tactile bump, the spring tension, or both?
I wonder if there is a difference in the actual keywells (the 'basket' that the switches are mounted into)? I'm not going to investigate that :)
On the most recent "CODE" measurements, can you explain the relative measurements?

I am going to be making key caps (as shown in a GH thread), this info is extremely relevant. And if someone wants no legends/different legends this will be their guide.
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Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 11:44:42 »
Quote from: input nirvana;474442
Cherry switches wearing: Are you referring to the tactile bump, the spring tension, or both?

Tactile bump. My KB132 was my work keyboard for 12 years (I'm a programmer) when I got the Advantage.

Quote
I wonder if there is a difference in the actual keywells (the 'basket' that the switches are mounted into)? I'm not going to investigate that :)

I hadn't thought of that; I just assumed they were the same. I may try a quick check with a profile gauge, though that probably wouldn't identify any difference that wouldn't also be visible.

Quote
On the most recent "CODE" measurements, can you explain the relative measurements?


Code: [Select]
  KB120                  KB130                  Advantage
   Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk     Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk     Fr  Bk   St Fr  Bk
P0 285 320 -90            340 380 -40            345 375 -40        
P1 435 490 -10 74 85    475 550 -55 75 88    500 550 -45 80 85
P2 340 350  -5 66 88    400 425 -55 73 88    405 425 -40 72 88
P3 275 250 -10 67 85    350 335 -40 71 88    345 325 -35 69 88
P4 275 210  -5 61 83    350 290 -60 70 88    340 285 -40 69 88
P5 255 205 -10 62 85    380 280 -40 71 88    375 285 -40 69 88
P6 355 305 -10 63 88    415 275 -45 71 88    375 285 -40 69 88
P7 355 215 -10 63 83    415 300 -45 70 88    380 285 -40 69 88




First two columns (Fr Bk) are the height of the key from the bottom of the skirt to the lowest point of the cylinder. St is the distance between the bottom of the stem and the bottom of the skirt; all the stems are inset slightly (shorter than the skirt). So Fr+St and Bk+St are the stem-relative heights shown in the diagrams. The final two columns are the angles between the base of the (bottom of the skirt) and the front and back faces of the key.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #58 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 12:02:56 »
Excellent!
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 17:59:23 »
Hi, just popping in to say I'd be interested as well. Blank is fine. My keyboard is black, but the keys wouldn't have to be. White could be cool. And separate colors for ARSTNEIO (if you know what I mean) and the rest would be good.

I have #80318UB-se, btw.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 20:59:12 »
I knew of the doubleshots and singleshots, but was unaware of the differences between the singleshots. (I was a little suspicious though)

1) I'll send an email to Rick at Kinesis and ask if there is any info (such as approximately when the changes may have occurred and if there is more than the 3 we now know about thanks to Kps). I'll also ask if there is are different keywell 'baskets'.

2) I'm probably going to WASD Keyboards on Friday the 23rd, and will bring at least a 130 series and an Advantage. Before that I'll look and see if there are any differences between the 130, 132, 134. We'll try to match up all the key caps on the boards and test fit.

Then WASD will be the "go-to" guy for Kinesis key caps. He'll be the "#1 Kinesis Key Cap Expert on the Planet" and have the exact key cap layout. Hell, that's gotta be worth something to someone somewhere. This will allow different colors/laser/etching if he knows what key cap to supply. And we may be able to get equally sized and shaped PBT or other type key caps, maybe even doubleshots. Imagine, one-click Kinesis key cap ordering. Who would have thunk it?

I'll try and see if there are any differences with the keywell 'basket', but somehow I doubt there is. I'll be sure to keep the (at least) 3 key cap sets for future reference and for key cap molding purposes.

I will mold key caps for the Kinesis this spring with my goal being to make a better-feeling key cap. If it turns out great, I'll be here to brag. If it sucks, you'll never hear another word about it ever again.
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:03:23 by input nirvana »
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:27:34 »
Nice stuff I N, do you think WASDKeyboards will be up to stocking non-standard keycaps just for Kinesis users?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 22:40:08 »
I'm a big WASD Keyboard fan, he's pretty much won me over when I saw the lengths he goes to with his business to take care of customers wants/needs. I think he might do it to a certain degree. Maybe not in all colors. I'm sure it will depend on how many keys are not "standard of what he carries" and how hard/expensive they are to procure. Let's face it, there probably won't be a line out the door for these. But I think it would be great if he did, and had some website optimization specifically for it. Plenty of Kinesis users want blank, or a different layout and stickers suck. Plus, as you can see from the Kinesis Gallery, plenty of people paint, dye, or otherwise custom-look their Kinesis boards (and they aren't Geekhackers). I'm sure Kinesis would refer people to him for key caps they don't provide. I already link him in the Split Kinesis article, but I can do a better job of it, especially if there are some neat photos.

There is also the possibility that a couple key caps will be VERY close but not exact. That may be an option as well. I'll bring calipers...I don't have an angle finder anymore though :(

I will take a black and a white keyboard, and we'll put various colors on them and have him snap some pics in his photo-box. They may not all be the correct key caps, but I think it would be wise to get some cool color concept pics to show and inspire.

I bet we can definitely do some sort of a group buy between GH and Deskthority at least once or twice.

OBSERVATION:
My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.
The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.
Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 23:18:58 »
Quote from: input nirvana;474907
My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.
The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.
Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?

The keyboards I have close to me (the Advantage LF and my pristine model #110) do not have shine on the keys yet :-)
My other model #110 has keys so shiny from use, they are glossy like mirrors on all rows! However, being doubleshots they actually look great!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 03:27:10 »
Just to let you know, I'd be interested in a set or 3 of Colemak (or possibly blank) key caps as well. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the stickers on the numbers row and other places, but that'd mean a slightly different layout in my case.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #65 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 09:43:04 »
Quote from: boli;475041
Just to let you know, I'd be interested in a set or 3 of Colemak (or possibly blank) key caps as well. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the stickers on the numbers row and other places, but that'd mean a slightly different layout in my case.

You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.

This...

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35600[/ATTACH]

Or this?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35601[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35602[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 December 2011, 09:59:09 by input nirvana »
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Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 09:57:25 »
Found this in the wiki showing Filco/Das profile keys, which are apparently the same as WASD:



Since the function row (what I call P1) is not taller, I think the main concern would be whether the thumb modifiers can be pressed naturally without accidentally activating the key below.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #67 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:03:12 »
The 4 keys (2 uppermost in each thumb cluster) definitely need to be taller. I've been through this already a few times with my OCD-centrcity.

And so it begins....
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:11:55 »
Love the avatar! Odd you would poke your nose out of your subforum and risk taking a bashing, especially in THIS rathole....(must be wearing a steel plate on your back like Ned Kelly)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #69 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 13:50:58 »
Quote from: input nirvana;475149
You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.

Oh are you in a hurry? I thought you'd go talk to the WASD guy first to check if he can even provide all the different keys needed for a Kinesis Contoured, and possibly even offer sets, and since it's nice to know some people who'd likely buy I thought I'd tell you I'm interested in general. :)

Anyway, I have 3 Kinesis Contoured Advantage (all less than 3 years old), two of which are in use.
  • Advantage LF, black UB, model # KB500USB-blk-LF, serial # 80013UBLF (in use at home)
  • Advantage, black USB, model # KB500USB-G-blk, serial # 80441UB (gathering dust at home)
  • Advantage, black USB, model # KB500USB-G-blk, serial # dunno it's at work


Depending on price/availability I'm interested in:
Ideally: Two full sets of key caps for my custom (Colemak) layout. Since I'm the only one who uses this I guess it's rather unlikely to be able to get it. All the main keys are Colemak, but many of the other stuff is changed. If you think it's possible I could ofc make a list of keys using the excellent key cap overview by kps - or do you think the key caps on my newer models are different?
Alternatively: Two full sets of blank key caps (not as awesome as Colemak keycaps, but beats having wrong info printed on the keys). Maybe a light and a dark set to make a check board pattern (like some korean SC2 players and sordna). ;) Light/dark shades of grey would probably be better than black/white.

***

Also WTH is that thing called Frankenboard? :D Nice work on the blank black keboard, I like the real F keys and extra thumb keys. Even the blank grey one looks very nice. :)
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 December 2011, 14:01:28 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #70 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 13:59:13 »
All 3 Kinesis boards, ok. I just wasn't sure exactly what you meant.
Since WASD custom laser/etch all him keys, you can get anything.

The Frankenboard looks like something from the Apollo lunar landings...I can just see Buzz and Neil pounding away on it now...
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 14:02:09 »
Well I figured since this thread is about key caps for Kinesis Advantage it'd be obvious. ;) Updated previous post with model and serial numbers if it matters. Also thanks a bunch for all the work you did!
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #72 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 14:13:26 »
I guess it is obvious, but I'm an obvious idiot, so it all works out. :)

I just sent an email to Rick at Kinesis with the questions, and a link to this page/thread.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #73 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 15:11:58 »
Some excerpts from Kinesis tech support response:

"The keycaps started out standard from Cherry, however years ago there were changes in the factory."

"Different factories have different tools and methods, which explain some of the slight differences, especially in the slope."
 
"However, looking at some of those diagrams, one must take into account the length of the stem. Where one keycap from say an older model 120 may appear smaller than a keycap from a newer keyboard, the stem was likely longer, thus it wouldn’t feel any different when placed on the Cherry key switch."
 
"As far as I know there have only those three styles, however it was never intentional. The slight differences were simply a matter of changing factories over the years."
 
So I guess it would seem that Kinesis had the profile/slope/height of each key cap where they wanted it, they have kept it (or tried to keep it) the virtually the same, and anything underlying (shorter key, longer stem, visa-versa) is somewhat of a non-issue. It's all about the key cap top height and slope (which a minor variance shouldn't be an issue). I'm still not clear if there are any actual special "Kinesis" key caps.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 22:48:07 »
WASD Keyboards has The Configurator for their silly, common flat keyboards, so....
I was thinking that if anyone had a specific idea of key cap colors/combinations they wanted to see/might want on a Kinesis, when I go on Fri. I'll have a white and a black Kinesis that we can 'mock up' and Weyman can take pics in his photo-box.

This has always been a favorite color scheme of mine:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35648[/ATTACH]
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #75 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 03:32:36 »
This looks pretty neat, though I'd probably replace a few of the colors. ;) I do like the grey color of the main keys though.

On a Kinesis board the whole Esc/F# keys row would need to stay the same, given they're rubber keys. I assume the yellow key is something special like Fn?
Most of the modifier keys are in the thumb cluster on a Kinesis and thus already easily distinguished from the other keys - only Shift and Tab are left as special keys in the keywell area... for symmetry I'd probably only change the Shift keys (at most, maybe even leave them) and leave Tab alone. Or more likely, because it's easier: leave the thumb clusters alone, leave the Shift keys alone, and just change the other keys.
This is assuming labeled key caps. With blank keys all of them would need to be replaced (except the  rubber keys).

BTW I'm in contact with Kinesis about LF keywells to upgrade my Cherry Brown Kinesis, and I asked about key caps. Rick referred me to this thread. Small world. :)
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 03:41:38 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

fossala

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #76 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 04:25:21 »
If we could get WASD keyboards to do it would that mean I could get dvorak legends?

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #77 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 05:10:24 »
I guess so, but it might be a big If.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

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« Reply #78 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:08:02 »
I also think that leaving the thumb clusters the same color is wise.

Yesterday I ordered a few keys from WASD: Green shift and arrow keys (so it's symmetrical (though I know not everyone keeps the arrow keys in their default locations (well, me neither -- I swapped up and down))). And then a red key for my control (caps lock) which will break the symmetry. But all in all, I think black with a bit of blue and green and then a red accent will work nicely. I'll post pics when I get them.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #79 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:10:09 »
WASD Keyboards wants to do it, and ANY legends are not a problem, they are the custom legend KINGS, go to their website:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/

We just need to get the right keys laid out, which we'll do tomorrow and hopefully have a work around with the couple issues we see here in this thread. I'll post here tomorrow evening.

Regarding the color scheme I posted on the HHKB above, it's about the look, nothing at all to do with the purpose of the keys. It's just pretty :)
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 11:15:16 »
A note about the rubber F-key row.

I (we, with my employees) had what seemed to be a pretty clean retrofit solution to convert them to switches. I was going to do it at cost (about $30), figuring about 10 people would send their keyboards, and we could get the idea 'out there'. The real problem which makes this not feasible, is the other 6 keys in the rubber F-key row. Moving them is a full-on complete re-work solution.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 18:21:07 »

***I will be editing this single post with updated information, solutions, thoughts, work-arounds.***

WASD Keyboards Kinesis Key Cap Project

First, let me thank WASD Keyboards for all of their help and support. Ever since the beginning, they've been informative and have provided solutions. Without their efforts, some of these projects would be dead-in-the-water. Plus WASD still has areas they are evolving into that will further be of interest to GH.

This post is a work in progress and what I have done currently. I need to add more pics with close ups and edit. I'm trying to get all the info and the steps to get to the 'perfect' point. What we've discovered is that many keys were the same, a few aren't, some of which are still ok, and a few that need a work around. The few that may not be an exact match, I will be using for a week or two to see if I notice or get used to the differences.

Direct key cap replacement:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35886[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35910[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35911[/ATTACH]
The key caps that can be replaced with EXACTLY the same key caps ONLY, are shown in this photo. There are 6 key cap 'types' so far and they are color coded (mostly). Red, orange, grey, and white single keys, and the two long grey keys which are also different from each other (they should have been 2 completely different colors for this example). For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is an 'R1 1x2' key. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.

KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys)
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35890[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys match R2 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key but are 1x1.25 instead of 1x1. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope) These are R1 1x1.25. Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.
OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height). I don't believe this designation key cap exists as a 'standard key'.

KEY ISSUE #2 (affects 2 keys-pinky keys)
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35891[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, upper most singlepinky key is a NUM 1.25 version of the NUM/P2 row key. So it's different than the 3 keys below it. At this time we are using the same key as the lower 3, so it's 'flatter' and not facing you as much as the original Kinesis key. The upper corner key is such a low-use key, this may be acceptable.
OPTION: Need a NUM/F-key that is 1.25. (HELP: you can compare with a "NUM" or "F-key" key, should be same exact top slope and height).

KEY ISSUE #3 (affects 8 keys-home row)
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35892[/ATTACH]
The 4 home row keys (blue) are spherical. I don't know if this is for ergo purposes, for home row identification, or a little marketing, but I'm thinking it may be for the latter two choices. Since WASD had no spherical keys we used the same profile as the orange row (R3/P3) above, because they are the 'flattest' slope. I believe the spherical keys  are available, we just need to source them. Here is an observation/possible solution: If you look at the entire home row (HJKL:") the key to the very left and the very right are the profile (R2 or P4 on kps chart) which also is a standard key. Yet the 4 keys that the fingers rest on are zero slope/slant. Maybe this is not as much for ergonomics as it is just for the identifying of the home row finger positions. If that is the case, those home row keys could either be 1) stay as the sphericals, or 2) have the same "ergo" profile as the left and right key (R2/P4) but have a nubbin for identifying. I should have recognized this sooner when I was at WASD Keyboards. I have replaced the R3 we put on at WASD with R2/P4 and I think it's very good, maybe better than the R3.
OPTIONS:
1) find Spherical
2) R2

(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)

KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)
The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35883[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35885[/ATTACH]
We will need to (ideally) get the exact keys, but just short of that, what we have here will work. I need a couple days of using it on one hand to see how any differences may affect usage.

The key on the left is an R2/P4 on kps chart, the middle key is the NUM/Fkey/P2 on kps chart, and the key on the right is the extra tall P1 on kps chart, and seems to not be a standard key. Perhaps someone can measure the tallest keys on the Race?
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35907[/ATTACH]
OPTIONS:
1) Need correct key height/slope (see KPS chart for measurement)
2) develop work around with multiple key adjustments (not as bad of an idea as it sounds)
(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)

Fun Factoid: I found out at WASD Keyboards that the original doubleshot keys (allegedly from Cherry) appear EXACTLY like Signature Plastics doubleshots, they look exactly like the key caps for the Kinesis keyboards. They were only offered in white, but it just so happens that WASD has a bunch of black doubleshots many that fit Kinesis...they look good :) Good thing for WASD I don't like legends, or I woulda been stashing those bad boys in my pockets till I jingled out his store!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35909[/ATTACH]

WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about):
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35912[/ATTACH]
And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.

I am still going to be making resin key caps for the Kinesis sometime this spring. Who knows what will happen? If it can be made to be high-quality, and easily, might do it and have WASD sell them.

KEYBOARDING RESULTS:

Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.

Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.

Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.

Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address  :(
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: 1-25-2012
Boli, the human guinia pig, has ordered this from WASD Keyboards as the first test set. This set is lacking the 4 tall modifier keys (CTRL, ALT/OPT, WIN/COMMAND)

[LIST=|INDENT=1]
  • 10    R4    (1w)
  • 12    R3    (1w)
  • 12    R2    (1w)
  • 18    R1    (1w)
  • 8    R1    (1.25w)
  • 2    R1 1x2    (2w)
  • 2    NumpadEnter    (2w)
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 January 2012, 15:05:44 by input nirvana »
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Offline dorkvader

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 00:01:25 »
the two extra-tall keys on the thumb cluster sort of look like those highest-row ones on the new Race, I wonder if they're the same.

Still: Good work! I also like the pictures. I'm a visual learner, so seeing the different colour on the [8] key really explained things for me. I sort-of understood why it was a different profile until now, but now it makes a lot of sense.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 03:31:49 »
Dude, we're predators, so we're fairly visual :)

I'll go back and add, amend, correct, solve the key cap issues in POST #83. It's quite involved unfortunately and not worth it for all the crazy posts. This way people can skim the same post to see as the "problems" get deleted and only the solutions are presented.

I went to the wiki (thanks for the kick in the butt KPS) and noticed (mostly Ripster) has made dramatic changes and added a lot of shizz. There may be an answer in there or a direction. I want to solve this thing right away, so I'll try to spend time over the holiday doing what I can with the key caps, measurements, and mock-ups. After that, anything that is not resolved will involve contacting the massive GH database of users, WASD, other manufacturers to get the last couple pieces dialed in.

At that point the hope is that we can go to WASD with a Kinesis key cap order and just specify colors, legends, O-rings, etc.

When I was at WASD, dooling around with all the shapes and sizes, I didn't have time to try any color schemes :( Maybe just need to use a Photoshop or something...anyone wanna throw in on this?
« Last Edit: Sun, 25 December 2011, 04:29:53 by input nirvana »
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fossala

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #84 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 04:49:24 »
Looking good, nice work.

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 19:28:34 »
Quote from: input nirvana;477340

KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys)
(Attachment Link) 35890[/ATTACH]
The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys are R2/P4 1.25 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope). Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.
OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height).


Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #86 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 21:51:39 »
Quote from: erw;478645
Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?

Good question.
Using R2 1x1.25. Keep in mind, some of the issue are the key itself, and some of the issue is it's relationship to adjoining keys. The reason the middle of the 3 keys does not have any mentionable difference is that the corners are "away" from home row finger movement, and the key above/below are higher, so it minimizes or negates the potential 'high corner' in that key position. Also since the key wells are formed, there are different angles at different spots that may maximize or minimize the issue.

Does that make sense?

EDIT- Maybe there is a different standard key that can go there...hmmm....need to look more and compare. And, I may be making a key mistake here and there, so that's why a little time and help is welcome! :)

EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.
« Last Edit: Wed, 28 December 2011, 00:12:48 by input nirvana »
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Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #87 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:01:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;478738

EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.


I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?

When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:55:02 »
Also :-)

Quote from: input nirvana;477340
WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about):
(Attachment Link) 35912[/ATTACH]
And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.


Having just spent hours reading the Rit dye thread, I wonder: Are WASD keys PBT and not ABS such that they can be dyed without melting?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

fossala

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« Reply #89 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 07:55:50 »
WASD keys are abs.

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #90 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 12:07:10 »
Quote from: erw;478884
I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?

When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.

DANG! I'm getting confused. The WASD keys that I used to replace the Kinesis keys R1 1x1.25. I don't think there are R2 1x1.25. The existing Kinesis keys match an R2 1x1 profile, so it seems that we want R2 1x1.25 keys.

Please remember I keep going back to post #83 and fine tuning, correcting, clarifying, updating.
« Last Edit: Wed, 28 December 2011, 12:10:30 by input nirvana »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #91 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:27:53 »
I am not done yet, but so far here is where I stand so far:


KEYBOARDING RESULTS:


Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.

Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.

Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.

Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address  :(
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline erw

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« Reply #92 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 19:22:54 »
Sounds good!

Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline sordna

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« Reply #93 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 20:33:14 »
Quote from: erw;479874
Sounds good!

Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?

$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).
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fossala

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #94 on: Fri, 30 December 2011, 04:19:17 »
Quote from: sordna;479930
$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).

The dual legend ones are ugly, I type in dvorak and would prefer qwerty than dual. I wish they would sell me some blank ones, that would make me happy.

Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #95 on: Fri, 30 December 2011, 11:23:10 »
My first Kinesis had dual legends. I thought they were okay, but all my subsequent boards have QWERTY keycaps because I don't need to look at the keys at all! Hmm, never asked them if they have blanks, maybe they do, did you ever ask Kinesis about it? If you didn't please do, they respond pretty quickly to email.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #96 on: Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:08:14 »
They used to have blanks, but not for the last couple years at least. That was my very first question.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #97 on: Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:35:37 »
I have not been at my keyboard very much this week, but I'm pretty comfortable with the alternate non-Kinesis keycap replacements. The one last item I have not taken more time to address is the thumb cluster keycap work around using different key heights. I can do that more seriously this weekend and have final thoughts then.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #98 on: Fri, 30 December 2011, 20:33:29 »
Got my caps.. these pics were taken at night and the colors are a little off. I tried to fix them in post-production and even though it might not look like it, the colors were worse before :-P

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I have tried the new keys on the various pinky key locations (key issues 1 & 2). Using an R1 as shift is fine. Using another key on the NUM row (I tried an original shift (R2)) is no problem for me, since I float to get up there anyway. The different slopes of the two middle pinky keys (caps lock and tab) are a bit more noticeable. I'd like to have the true R2s, but if it's not possible, it's not possible.

I'll get around to issues 3 & 4 in the new year.. :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2239
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #99 on: Sat, 31 December 2011, 00:47:39 »
Cool pics, those green and red accents look nice on this board!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard