Group Buy Participation Statistics

[duq]

Hey! Sorry I didn't know where discussion on this topic belonged, so I guess off-topic is where it is. 

Anyway, I had a thought about group buys that might be helpful. I've noticed alot of people dropping out of many of the current group buys and it kind of irks me because I feel that when you commit to a group buy and drop out it ruins the price brackets. Although the price difference from tier to tier may be only a few dollars I feel it kind of messed up that, to bring up a particular group buy, the Klaxon group buy needs an additional charge on the invoice to take the hit of these dropouts.

Is there anyway we can pool these statistics using a google doc or forum program when running group buys? Like a +/- rating on how often a member participates and either successfully fulfills his/her commitment to a group buy or not?

Just a thought, I mean, I don't know if this would help in anyway, but I feel it might be nice to know the more reliable members.

[The_Beast]

When I ran my relatively small plate GB, I had one person not pay an invoice out of 56 orders (These are people that ordered, not the number of plates sold/bought). The one thing that may have mess me up was paying for plates on an invoice and them PMing people for shipping, so people paid me twice. So 56 ordered, 55 paid and I refunded 2 people wanted a refund after paying for a plate, one person had troubles with PP and one never paid for shipping so I refunded him. I'm pretty sure they were all international orders and didn't realize that international shipping isn't cheap even with first class.

[tjcaustin]

Hey! Sorry I didn't know where discussion on this topic belonged, so I guess off-topic is where it is. 

Anyway, I had a thought about group buys that might be helpful. I've noticed alot of people dropping out of many of the current group buys and it kind of irks me because I feel that when you commit to a group buy and drop out it ruins the price brackets. Although the price difference from tier to tier may be only a few dollars I feel it kind of messed up that, to bring up a particular group buy, the Klaxon group buy needs an additional charge on the invoice to take the hit of these dropouts.

Is there anyway we can pool these statistics using a google doc or forum program when running group buys? Like a +/- rating on how often a member participates and either successfully fulfills his/her commitment to a group buy or not?

Just a thought, I mean, I don't know if this would help in anyway, but I feel it might be nice to know the more reliable members.

That's not at all why the subsidy was added to klaxon.

Essentially, you paid $3 extra so some of your fellow buyers could save $20.

But what you speak of is why it took an additional 2 weeks to get invoices out as people either dropped out or ignored pleas for billing information and tiers changed because of it.

[Krogenar]

So what's being suggested is a way to rate groupbuy participants? I'm all for it. Get downrated often enough by groupbuy organizers and maybe you won't be invited to groupbuys at all. That would keep people honest. But -- someone could just create a new forum account and their rating is back. There would have to be some kind of verification process, which would be time-consuming; which would probably mean making GH a pay-for-access site.

Or maybe make a sister site to GH; GH remains a free, open forum, but a secondary affiliated site requires some nominal amount for membership, like any other buying club. Maybe make GB organizers pay a bit more, but they get access to some awesome services like rendering (Kaporkle as an example), and more intuitive ordering tools (Matt3o's system). People who would want to buy into the groupbuys would have to pay some nominal fee, enough to discourage people from just making up new accounts, and they would have to be verified in some way by the owners of this secondary site. Ordinary users would get tools as well, showing what parts of each groupbuy they need to get in order to outfit their keyboard. It would be great to have a drop down menu specifying your keyboard, and getting a report back indicating you need to get Kit #1, #3 and #5.

Make it a pay-for-play site, and make sure everyone gets what they want. (within reason)

[i3oilermaker]

There are always going to be people who are new and want to participate.  If we allow them to participate (which they absolutely should) then there is no way to discern a noob from someone with a fake acount running up the numbers.

[Krogenar]

But what you speak of is why it took an additional 2 weeks to get invoices out as people either dropped out or ignored pleas for billing information and tiers changed because of it.

Maybe one day the various entrepeneurs (Boilermaker, sherryton, etc.) will just develop some custom keysets, order them en masse by themselves and sell them on their own. Or has that happened already?

[i3oilermaker]

KeyPop is doing it now:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36743.msg796197#msg796197

But they will cost more than Group Buy prices.

[Krogenar]

There are always going to be people who are new and want to participate.  If we allow them to participate (which they absolutely should) then there is no way to discern a noob from someone with a fake acount running up the numbers.

Maybe groupbuys should be preceded by a small, nominal deposit by everyone interested in it. That would provide the verification process. So even if you're the noobiest noob of them all, you have to pay $25 into the groupbuy up front, before the main product is ordered. If it doesn't go through (groupbuy abandoned) then they get most (but maybe not all) of their money back. It would mean more administration, but at least the organizers would know who was verified and who was not?

[Krogenar]

KeyPop is doing it now:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36743.msg796197#msg796197

But they will cost more than Group Buy prices.

I figure they would cost more because they are bearing all the risk on their own. They could easily design keys that no one (or few people) want, and then they bear all the consequences. They should therefore reap most of the benefits -- if any!

[duq]

Hey! Sorry I didn't know where discussion on this topic belonged, so I guess off-topic is where it is. 

Anyway, I had a thought about group buys that might be helpful. I've noticed alot of people dropping out of many of the current group buys and it kind of irks me because I feel that when you commit to a group buy and drop out it ruins the price brackets. Although the price difference from tier to tier may be only a few dollars I feel it kind of messed up that, to bring up a particular group buy, the Klaxon group buy needs an additional charge on the invoice to take the hit of these dropouts.

Is there anyway we can pool these statistics using a google doc or forum program when running group buys? Like a +/- rating on how often a member participates and either successfully fulfills his/her commitment to a group buy or not?

Just a thought, I mean, I don't know if this would help in anyway, but I feel it might be nice to know the more reliable members.

That's not at all why the subsidy was added to klaxon.

Essentially, you paid $3 extra so some of your fellow buyers could save $20.

But what you speak of is why it took an additional 2 weeks to get invoices out as people either dropped out or ignored pleas for billing information and tiers changed because of it.

Oh! I apologize for the misunderstanding TJ!

[i3oilermaker]

I figure they would cost more because they are bearing all the risk on their own. They could easily design keys that no one (or few people) want, and then they bear all the consequences. They should therefore reap most of the benefits -- if any!

I completely agree, and having options is fantastic.  The question seems to be how to run a smoother group buy so we can get prices that are cheaper than retail since we are all sharing the risk.

Personally, I think what aggiejy is doing with the RainDrop buy: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40520.0 is a step in the right direction.  Some risk to the organizer, cheaper than retail, pay up front so there are no dropouts.

[SmallFry]

Pay to play GH? I don't care for that idea too well. I do like Aggiejy's ideas, but also think that group buy speeds are what affect drop outs. As time progresses on a compulsive buyer's GeekHack page, the money denoted for keys becomes money denoted for other keys in an instant. If we do flash group buys with notice ahead of time, people will make sure to get their order in, out and paid for. I'd say that the Raindrop and Matt's system are some of the smoothest GB's that I've seen to date due to their speed, efficiency, and no room for nonsense that comes with Google forms no matter what you want.

TL;DR P2P Geekhack=bad. Flash GB's or Matt's system=good.

[Krogenar]

The question seems to be how to run a smoother group buy so we can get prices that are cheaper than retail since we are all sharing the risk.

Personally, I think what aggiejy is doing with the RainDrop buy: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40520.0 is a step in the right direction.  Some risk to the organizer, cheaper than retail, pay up front so there are no dropouts.

Pay up front? I did not realize that's how he ran his groupbuy. That's very smart. I custom manufacture for a living, and I take some form of deposit in 50% of the cases -- it keeps everyone honest. There should be a thread somewhere discussing how best to manage a groupbuy, some basic guide put together by people who have experience.

I noticed that the keypop coffee set that you referenced as an example of an entrepeneur investing in a custom set is considering taking pre-orders. That's a clever way to get to another tier. I still don't see why people are so terrified of a monetized GH. I could see people buying an avatar badge for a $5 donation -- just as an option. Just because something is free doesn't make it better.

[SmallFry]

I'd rather not pay for my reputation. I feel that I've earned, or at least somewhat, hence my anti-pay philosophy. A badge or rep score for how many group buys you have successfully paid for wouldn't be bad. So each time you pay for a GB you get a +1 to your score or summat.

[The_Ed]

$5 for an avatar?!... That's how we tell who made what post... (Or do you manually read the username?)

[IvanIvanovich]

It depend a lot on the buy. For SP stuff it is just annoying if a tier has to go back up but it won't neccessarily mean the buy gets killed. For other source like GMK for example which have a MOQ that will be a big problem if there is a lot of drop outs as either those that stay in will have to pick up the slack or the buy dies. In that case for buy that need such a MOQ I see no problem with a must complete payment in 48hrs, and NO refunds policy. If you decided you don't want the set you will just have to wait and sell it later when you got it.
Like for my dyesubs buy which had a MOQ, it got delayed for a long time while having to get back up to the MOQ since there was a lot of people that just ignored the invoice and my messages about it. Those people are on my blacklist and I won't accept any order from them ever again in any of my future buys.

[Krogenar]

$5 for an avatar?!... That's how we tell who made what post... (Or do you manually read the username?)

No, not an avatar -- let's say you donate $5 to GeekHack, a little badge appears under your avatar that says ** GH Sponsor ** or something. It wouldn't be mandatory. I just don't see why people are so averse to putting a little money into GH; that's not to say that people generally don't donate to GH. I know that they do; be it time, money, products, etc. I just figure that if GH becomes profitable that money could be used to upgrade the forum software, improve the services, etc.

[The_Ed]

For my second Krytox GB I'm gonna have people pay up front. That way they can't drop out, and if they make a paypal claim I will post their info in a public blacklist on both GH and DT. If the price goes up there will be a supplementary payment for those who already joined. If a GPL gets less than the MOQ they will either get a refund, or I'll buy up to the MOQ and sell the extras later (Most likely a refund though). There are no volume discounts as far as I know of, so there are no tiers to reach except MOQ.

$5 for an avatar?!... That's how we tell who made what post... (Or do you manually read the username?)

No, not an avatar -- let's say you donate $5 to GeekHack, a little badge appears under your avatar that says ** GH Sponsor ** or something. It wouldn't be mandatory. I just don't see why people are so averse to putting a little money into GH; that's not to say that people generally don't donate to GH. I know that they do; be it time, money, products, etc. I just figure that if GH becomes profitable that money could be used to upgrade the forum software, improve the services, etc.

I donated €10 to DT, I will not be donating to GH.

[Krogenar]

Like for my dyesubs buy which had a MOQ, it got delayed for a long time while having to get back up to the MOQ since there was a lot of people that just ignored the invoice and my messages about it. Those people are on my blacklist and I won't accept any order from them ever again in any of my future buys.

I completely agree with blacklisting people.

Firing a customer is a pretty rare occurrence, but it does happen. If you don't like the food in my restaurant, that's fine. But don't protest by defecating on another diner's table. That gets you a face-to-face introduction with the pavement and exile from my restaurant. Maybe GH would benefit from some basic guide as to how to run a groupbuy, how long to invoice, and consequences for flaking out. I still really like the idea of some kind of groupbuy karma system.

[SmallFry]

Er, are my ideas totally ignored here? O.o

[i3oilermaker]

I'd rather not pay for my reputation. I feel that I've earned, or at least somewhat, hence my anti-pay philosophy. A badge or rep score for how many group buys you have successfully paid for wouldn't be bad. So each time you pay for a GB you get a +1 to your score or summat.

Group Buys are not sponsored or run by GH admins, so it would be hard to track what is a legit +1

[The_Ed]

If you start a GB you could be given the privilege to add a unique +/- 1 with the GB name by a mod/admin. By clicking on the GB rep link you would see the list of them.

[duq]

Maybe have a subforum for GroupBuy Organizers listing the blacklisted individuals? Also, maybe members with  <25 posts be not able to participate in group buys? Just a thought.

[The_Ed]

I have a lot of people with 0 posts buy stuff from me. Some even made their accounts just to be able to order something from me. Some people have had their accounts for years and only have a handful of posts.

[i3oilermaker]

I have a lot of people with 0 posts buy stuff from me. Some even made their accounts just to be able to order something from me. Some people have had their accounts for years and only have a handful of posts.

I have to agree with The_Ed...this might be an interesting static, but it really provides no value to a GB Organizer

[duq]

I have a lot of people with 0 posts buy stuff from me. Some even made their accounts just to be able to order something from me. Some people have had their accounts for years and only have a handful of posts.

Totally true.

How about the blacklist sub forum?

[i3oilermaker]

I have a lot of people with 0 posts buy stuff from me. Some even made their accounts just to be able to order something from me. Some people have had their accounts for years and only have a handful of posts.

Totally true.

How about the blacklist sub forum?

There you run into the issue where some people have a bad encounter but the buyer/seller is actually legit.  I have seen plenty of complaints (wont name names) of users who I have and continue to do transactions with.  Just because 2 people don't see eye to eye should not mean black list.

But going back to my point if someone gets blacklisted, nothing stops them from creating a new account.

[The_Ed]

Is there a way to attach your paypal account to a forum account? If so then they would have to go through the hassle of making another paypal account as well.

EDIT: Though they could borrow a friend/relative's...

[IvanIvanovich]

Which is why I don't track username, but real name, paypal email and mailing address. Those people gave me that info willingly, so I can use it against them but I am not sure about sharing it with others as it can get sticky.
Which is exactly why. Making a dummy forum account is easy, but finding a proxy for a groupbuy is going to raise some questions.

[The_Beast]

Yup, I didn't mind refunding people after they bought a plate and didn't pay for shipping. I can understand when they ordered just one plate and international shipping was 3/4 the cost of a single plate. However I have a problem with people taking 2 months to pay a $7 shipping invoice after sending 5+ pm's about it.


And paying for "GH Sponsor" that's dumb. I'll never pay to use a forum, ever

[tjcaustin]

Hey! Sorry I didn't know where discussion on this topic belonged, so I guess off-topic is where it is. 

Anyway, I had a thought about group buys that might be helpful. I've noticed alot of people dropping out of many of the current group buys and it kind of irks me because I feel that when you commit to a group buy and drop out it ruins the price brackets. Although the price difference from tier to tier may be only a few dollars I feel it kind of messed up that, to bring up a particular group buy, the Klaxon group buy needs an additional charge on the invoice to take the hit of these dropouts.

Is there anyway we can pool these statistics using a google doc or forum program when running group buys? Like a +/- rating on how often a member participates and either successfully fulfills his/her commitment to a group buy or not?

Just a thought, I mean, I don't know if this would help in anyway, but I feel it might be nice to know the more reliable members.

That's not at all why the subsidy was added to klaxon.

Essentially, you paid $3 extra so some of your fellow buyers could save $20.

But what you speak of is why it took an additional 2 weeks to get invoices out as people either dropped out or ignored pleas for billing information and tiers changed because of it.

Oh! I apologize for the misunderstanding TJ!

No worries.

Some sort of hybrid of aggie and matt's systems may be what's best, especially with GMK GBs that have an MoQ with no tiers.  Pay for a specific order with the clear knowledge you'll see keys before you see money back (hopefully).