Author Topic: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.  (Read 307892 times)

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Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #750 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 01:35:32 »
datahand: around 28.5mm
lalboard: around 27mm

Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #751 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 09:34:36 »
It appears to me that Datahand is not for people with medium/small hands, I`m saying that because the thickness of the switches and distance between the clusters/switch assembly will force the user to uncomfortably spread fingers to touch the center/down switch or pinky/left and index/right.

For example my hand is 7 inch long, measuring from wrist joint to tip of the middle finger, according to the pictures and measurements I found about DataHand, I would not be able to use the device comfortably.

Part of the challenge is to make the 5 way switch no bigger than 1 inch width/height and keep it serviceable. People with extra small hands... sorry, having Michael Jordan`s hand size would solve lots of design problems

@RSanders or anyone that own a DataHand, do you happen to have large hands/long fingers ? And thank you all for posting pictures of the original device.

The keymouse... the trackball version is $500+..., the mouse version is not even worth talking about, you cant destroy your shoulder constantly moving half pound piece of plastic on the desk...

For that money you can get a cheap 3d printer for $150, micro switches max $20, one roll of filament whatever color you want $15, soldering iron, wires/solder/flux $40, teensy $20

And you can customize it, modify the 3d file and print parts as you please, make modifications to fit your need, hang in there, we`ll get this :)



I will have some additional measurements for you shortly beyond what has already been posted. Regarding hand size, the measurement from the base of my palm where it connects to the wrist to the tip of my long finger is essentially identical to you, i.e 7”. In my opinion, smaller to mid sized hands would have an easier time with the DataHand than someone with large hands and correspondingly thick fingers, mostly as relates to accidental/incidental key activation. What you may have been missing from not having access to an actual unit is that the PCB to which the key wells are attached is fully adjustable in the x, y, and z plane using the two numbered dials pictured (for adjusting distance of left and right corners of the PCB in relation to the palm pad) and the thumb screw pictured for elevation (one on each side of the unit for independent elevation of the left and right side of the PCB). The PCB is not visible as it is protected by what amounts to a rubber dental dam. The rotational position of the PCB board has a big impact on comfort, at least for me. It effectively reduces the horizontal distance with which you were concerned between the fingers. It is much easier to curl the fingers towards the palm than it is to spread them, as you have observed.  On mine, the left hand PCB is rotated counterclockwise slightly and the right hand one is rotated clockwise slightly. Tenting is also important. On the left, my pinky is lower than my pointer finger. On the right, same thing. To avoid unnecessary reaching and other contortions to activate keys, I requested tall keys for all except the south directions, as described below. The best way to describe this is for most west or east movements, I very slightly move the finger in question towards the west or east while at the same time very, very slightly pivoting my entire arm (forearm, wrist, hand all as one unit, pivoting more or less on the elbow or whatever is being supported by the arm of my chair) in that same direction giving just enough movement to the finger to activate the wanted key without activating any of the other west or east keys at the same time.  I added pads as needed to further decrease necessary travel, as specified below. It is important to note that, while the original design was intended for multiple users (each user making note of their respective dial settings or thumb screw settings), a properly and extensively configured DataHand, like mine, is a very individual thing and once set up "just so", it is not easy to convert all the adjustments, key heights, palm pad size, key padding, etc. over for another individual to use.


The rubber palm pads came in two sizes, small and large.  I personally use the large. The base unit also came with North keys tall and South West East keys short. I requested tall keys for all except the South direction as I had problems actuating the west and east keys otherwise, especially at speed. I also requested the oversized thumb up keys as I kept missing them at speed. Of note, I am slightly slower on a DataHand than on a regular flat keyboard, where I was timed by a temp agency at 120wpm in my prime.  I was closer to 80 to 90 wpm on a DataHand.  This is due to reaction times being faster if your fingers are hovering over keys as opposed to being in physical contact with them prior to activating your finger to activate the key.  At one point I was working with DataHand engineers as I was outpacing the processor when switching between NAS mode (numbers and symbols) and normal as well as switching from typing a capital letter followed immediately by lower case. The unit would keep typing all caps even though I had released the shift key because I was typing too fast for the processor to catch that the shift key was no longer depressed. Same with NAS, I would type a number, release the NAS key, and numbers/symbols would continue to be output as I had outpaced the processor. For most typists this is probably not an issue but for a, at the time, high output medical transcriptionist, it was a big deal.  Now I don't have to type that fast or for as long so I don't worry to much about speeds. The issue was never satisfactorily resolved other than to limit the string of all caps to one cap after the originally intended cap or one number/symbol in addition to the initially intended number/symbol. Editing still became necessary so it really wasn't a fix as far as I was concerned.  I just learned to slow down when shifting between lower case/upper case and when typing in medication dosages (switching rapidly from numbers to letters). Even with a slightly slower speed on the DataHand, my output actually increased as I did NOT need breaks while using the Datahand. On any other keyboard, including Maltron and Kinesis, I still need periodic breaks as discomfort does develop when using those, just not nearly as quickly as when using a regular flat keyboard.

To further decrease necessary finger travel, I also requested the rubber adhesive pads to put on all the nswe keys and the thumb keys, most of which have long since deteriorated and have been replaced by industrial strength adhesive loop side (not hook side) Velcro.

The duct tape visible was me being lazy and not bothering to remove some deteriorated rubber pad for replacement with loop Velcro. I may get around to it at some point. The mostly missing (a warm thank you to the nighttime cleaning staff for that "modification" which essentially turns it into the original stock thumb up key) thumb up key is directly opposite the duct tape and, as it is only needed to toggle back to “normal” mode, it is not too much of a bother to pause a moment and reach a bit to actuate it when needed so I have not bothered cobbling together a replacement. If I were still in a high production medical transcription environment, I would have fixed it by now.

The intact right thumb up key is included for comparison only.

Thank you for your thoughts on the keymouse.  I will avoid for the moment. 
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2019, 12:36:52 by RSanders »

Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #752 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 10:03:59 »
Each pod is 1" in external diameter with no overhang beyond the pod by the keys unless they are being actuated.

I am listing measurements based on the right hand side referring to each key well by letter, A, B, C and D with A being pointer finger, D being pinky.

For all practical purposes, A and C are directly across from each other with B being 4/10" higher than an imaginary line between A and C with D being 4/10" lower than the imaginary A - C line. While A and B appear to be more or less radially oriented the same (might be a very slight rotation clockwise for B compared with A), C shows more of a clockwise rotation from B and likewise, D shows more of a clockwise rotation from C.
Distance from center to center of down keys:
A - D = 3 and 1/10"
A - C = 2 and 1/10"
A - B = 1 and 1/10"

The tops of the tall key caps are 3/10" higher than the top of down key. The tops of the small key caps are 1/10" higher than the top of the down key.

Down key total travel distance is 1/10"

Inner diameter (where the finger goes) assuming tall keys and no padding is 7/10"

NSWE key travel is, depending on how high up the key you measure (lever motion, not linear motion like the down key), approximately 1/10" per key. Given the pods are 1/10" apart that makes sense.

I am eyeballing this as best I can without relying on a digital readout as I discovered this morning my work caliper battery is dead and my purely mechanical precision caliper is at home.

I couldn't really tell from the images already posted, does your design account for over-travel prevention similarly to the DataHand, i.e. the plastic "fence" around all four key wells?

On reading your issues with translucency potentially affecting the IR sensors, that reminded me of the time I tried to use a DataHand in direct sunlight. It did not go well, for obvious reasons. At first I thought I had a system failure and was quite relieved when drawing the blinds solved the issue. The device has to be used away from any strong direct light sources, otherwise the IR sensors get overwhelmed and no key input is possible.


« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2019, 11:05:33 by RSanders »

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #753 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 12:13:05 »

I couldn't really tell from the images already posted, does your design account for over-travel prevention similarly to the DataHand, i.e. the plastic "fence" around all four key wells?



Each key well has a back that provides a positive stop. It also has a little groove that mates with one in the key to prevent the keys from sliding out when you press them, since they're not held in mechanically, only magnetically. (makes for much easier cleaning/maintenance/replacement!)



Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #754 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 12:33:37 »

Each key well has a back that provides a positive stop. It also has a little groove that mates with one in the key to prevent the keys from sliding out when you press them, since they're not held in mechanically, only magnetically. (makes for much easier cleaning/maintenance/replacement!)


Thank you for the explanation. That design may very well be an improvement on the original, assuming there are no issues with the overall weight of the keys vs the magnets. The DataHand overcame this by using a VERY thin/delicate stalk and a more or less hollow key cap, the weak point being right where the stalk push fits into the key cap, as was demonstrated by the nighttime cleaning staff when they broke off my "N" keycap.... On the DataHand, the inner keys themselves have the travel self limited by bumping into each other. The outer keys have their travel limited by the "fence". Since any excessive pressure on the part of the user is directed from the keycap directly to the "fence" or to another key that is relatively resistant to moving in a particular direction, there is usually no danger of the thin stalk/cap combination being damaged, nighttime cleaning staff excepted, of course. Removing the fence allows all of the external keys to be completely levered away from the central down key allowing for removal and cleaning. The internal ones are a bit more of a pain as the well itself has to be removed to allow the keys to rotate away from the down key completely for removal and cleaning.  Fortunately, I have only ever had problems with the "external" keys sticking as removing them for cleaning is much easier than the inner ones that bump into each other.  I have found that PCB-safe electrical contact cleaner sprayed around a key usually does the job as well without having to open up the mechanism for thorough cleaning and without negatively affecting the IR assembly.

You may find the following URL of interest: http://daveola.com/Pages/Stuff/DataHand/Cleaning/
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2019, 12:39:28 by RSanders »

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #755 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 13:07:33 »
Oh, I've thoroughly disassembled and reassembled my datahand quite a few times :). I had reverse engineered the PCB and wrote my own firmware from scratch for the "stock" at89c55wd that the datahand uses, and then replaced that with a teensy (firmware) (for better USB support), with a hacked together wiring harness/adapter for the 40pin DIP socket.

The firmware for the lalboard (which I still need to release, ugh. If anyone is waiting on that, feel free to ping me) is based on that teensy firmware.

But anywho, I always found it a pain to disassemble it -- even just taking off the fence to get at the keys/clusters, etc. Hence, I hardly ever cleaned my datahand :). I love how easy it is to take out any of the keys on the lalboard - it makes it so much more convenient to clean, and so I'm much more likely to.

I haven't had any issues with the side keys breaking, although I have snagged and broke the thumb mode keys that stick up a couple of times. But it's a simple matter to reprint and replace them. I make sure to keep a small stock of them on hand, haha.

The only occasional issues I've had with the side keys are crap getting stuck in the key well, causing the key to stick or not fully press, or the magnet coming loose from the key stem, which is easily solved with some CA glue.



Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #756 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 13:44:33 »
Very nice. Disassembly has always been a pain and I try to do it as little as possible.  Speaking as a former research engineer, your attention regarding ease of preventive maintenance and part replacement is very good to see. Dale Retter (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dale-retter-35441a19/)  would be pleased, I think to see all that everyone here has accomplished. Once complete, is the intent to have an open source DIY model for this project or has any contact been established with Dale regarding potentially releasing a re-created DataHand under a sustainable business model?

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #757 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 14:03:08 »
Once complete, is the intent to have an open source DIY model for this project


... yes, it already is :)

lalboard.com


Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #758 on: Wed, 11 September 2019, 15:07:49 »
.
... yes, it already is :)
lalboard.com

That just made my day. Thank you for forwarding the link.  Now I have a legitimate reason to purchase a 3d printer as well as a great off-season project to work on with the high school robotics team I mentor.


Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #759 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 11:52:55 »
Thank you both for the images/measurements.
The way I designed the cluster switches will allow about 10 degrees of movement, the top part of the switch is gonna be detacheable and can be reprinted different size to be as close as needed or away from the finger, the lever itself is gonna be a separate piece too, the longer the lever arm, the easier to push the button (longer travel)
Main switch assembly can be detached from the plate without desoldering, easy to clean it with little bit of compressed air.
If I can manage to find the time some soldering is gonna happen next Friday.

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #760 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 12:00:53 »
The way I designed the cluster switches will allow about 10 degrees of movement

That sounds about right, I think my design has 12.5 degrees of movement for the side keys.


Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #761 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 13:11:05 »
Thank you both for the images/measurements....easy to clean it with little bit of compressed air.

You are most welcome.

I have found that in addition to compressed air, a minimal amount of a good quality non-conductive electrical contact cleaner with a lubricating component does a great job on the key mechanisms when (cough) aerosolized soda (cough) or other build-up gums up the works.  Saves the bother of disassembly and, given the age, the very real risk of breaking something critical. I am pleased to see the current iterations take into account ease of maintenance/repair, something DataHand just didn't do very well, in my opinion.  You can imagine how stressful it was attempting to swap out all the short key caps for long ones in the west east direction on the original. After breaking several following their directions, I ended up sending it back and having them do it. Swapping out the firmware chip was much easier by comparison.

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #762 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 07:19:28 »


Most of the modelling is done.

I`ll add all the OBJ`s soon so anyone can print those.
3 ballheads, hand piece/wrist positions is adjustable, same for base and whole switch clusters plate, I can adjust the height/distance from the table too, about 50mm travel.
Each cluster switch has its own ballhead, can be independently angled, about 10 degrees any direction, the metal wire in the pictures is just a tiny spring to hold the levers grouped as I dont have the electronics in yet.
I kept the base small as sooner or later I will add a way to clamp it to a chair`s armrest
Ignore the rough printing, I was trying to get it done fast so I can get a feel about what needs to change.
I`d incorporate a trackball into the design, use PMW3360 but the available firmware does not have an easy way to flip axis.
If someone can put some time into that, as in not a coder and make the PMW3360 work with teensy 2.0 or diff version, I`ll add a trackball to the left/right hand.
Overall im very happy with the end result, feels and looks like a sci-fi prop.

TLDR - Modelling almost done, can be improved with a trackball if someone want to put some time into the firmware and flip axis (PMW3360), will upload OBJs soon.


Offline RSanders

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #763 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 09:25:26 »
Iso, that looks really, really promising.  I am especially intrigued by the key well you are using in the place of the DataHand's cluster of thumb keys.  In over two decades typing on a DataHand I never once thought about what if the design had incorporated a key well in lieu of the thumb cluster as it appears on the DataHand.  I'd be interested in hearing about your experience using that design for the thumb as opposed to the DataHand's thumb cluster design.  Regardless, your prototype looks amazing. 

Regarding mounting to a chair, I wouldn't worry too much about keeping it small. Make it as large as you need it to be in terms of structural stability/room for electronics/etc. as adding a plate for mounting purposes shouldn't be too big of an issue.  The image below is the "official" chair mount that was offered through DataHand when they briefly offered the "DataChair."  I ordered just the mounts and slapped the thing onto an Aeron. Surprisingly, I didn't even have to drill additional holes in the mounting hardware as the screw spacing for the part that bolts directly to and under the chair arm was identical on the Aeron.  I didn't even need to pay a visit to the hardware store for longer screws as the stock Aeron screws were long enough for a secure fit.   The hardest part was getting everything adjusted "just so" which took several months of experimentation.


Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #764 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 11:27:06 »
Thanks, my logic was, if I have to train to learn to use the new keys layout/way of pushing on them, why would I want to use the tumb on a different way. I might be wrong and the tumb might need "special" attention but  as it is right now, I dont see why the thumb cant be used same way.
The tumb is the strongest and most versatile, if anything, will be the easiest of them all to re-adjust to the new way of typing.

The base is designed that way so is very easy to clamp and switch from chair to desk, high/low, negative/positive tilting, variable ulnar relief. The support I`m thinking about designing for desks include a clamp system like a camera quick/release, so, had to be kind of small, plus Im kind of impatient and I wanted to finish printing that bit :)

Unless someone take on modifying the firmware for PMW3360 so I can add a trackball, its gonna take some time before I add the electronics to this itteration as I have 2 other projects I work on on my spare time. First I have to have the new keyboard done, and my brown linear Gateron switches are 3 days away and I will focus on that, then I might come back and finish this as it is, with PMW3360 or without, at least one hand, just to play games or execute macros.


Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #765 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 18:53:02 »
Hello JesusFreke and iso, what is your preferred 3d printer for making the LALBoard?

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #766 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 18:59:22 »
I think any reasonably modern/capable printer should be fine. Personally, I'm a big fan of the prusa's :)

Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #767 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 15:54:31 »
Thank you for the suggestion. It's out of my budget though.

Do you know of any sub-$500 printers that can do the job?

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #768 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 16:51:42 »
Hi legopowa, welcome to Geekhack.

Any  printer will do really, 5 years ago was hard to choose, nowdays they got it down to a science and even $150 printer can do the job.
The only difference between an expensive and cheap printer is repairability and speed, if you plan to print over 60mm/s you need to drop some cash. Other than that, is pretty much the same.

A $200 printer, with printing area over 220mm will cover any model here.
Head over to Aliexpress.com and search for 3d printer, sort by sales, set max ammount, eye one you like, get on youtube, search the name of the printer for reviews and decide. Note that they ship from China or Russia and if you`re in US can take over 3 weeks to arrive.
You can seach for same printer you like on eBay (do not buy used 3d printers !) and pay have it sent faster, make sure you turn on "US only" and delivery guarantee.

I own 3 printers, a Tevo little monster, delta and 2 cartesians, monoprice and a tarantula.

Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #769 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 19:24:37 »
Thanks, iso! I'm eyeing the Ender-3x. Probably going to buy that.

On account of the patents for the DataHand expiring (with no chance of renewal), I am strongly considering manufacturing LALBoards for a living. More people need access to these joint-saving miracles.

Will make one myself before deciding on this path.

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #770 on: Sat, 21 September 2019, 22:06:20 »
Manufacturing and selling is a long and expensive adventure, good luck and if you have any success dont forget to offer a job to whoever created the CAD files you used and remember that good intentions does not equal good fortune.

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #771 on: Mon, 23 September 2019, 12:18:18 »
Ergonomic Replica - Data Hand

Hand support file needs to be mirrored, original file is for left hand
Switches plate file needs to be mirrored, original file is for left hand
Small parts printed at 0.08 except the spacers, everything else at 0.32 and 0.4
Most parts need to be printed with proper layer orientation in mind as they are held into place by screws.
Used screws, 40mm, 20mm @ m3 and 13mm @ 3-38   
Switches : 611-PTS636SL43LFS and SKRGAFD010


Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #772 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 19:21:53 »
I just bought all the parts and tools for the LALBoard. Never used a 3d printer before either, so I imagine making a full LALboard will take the better part of a month.

What's a reasonable timeframe for a newbie to make a LALBoard?

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #773 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 20:36:24 »
This is a diy project, depends on your skill level, could take 2 days could take 6 months

Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #774 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 08:19:58 »
Thank you, iso.

And thank you JesusFreke for this wonderful project! I can't wait until being able to type for hours (with regular rests) without any soreness.

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #775 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 22:41:52 »
Since my contraption is supposed to be attached to chair`s armrest, I`m thinking about using a bluetooth controller, does anyone here can recommend a decent one that doesnt break the bank ?

Offline ErgoMacros

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #776 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 23:08:03 »
Not bluetooth, but wireless with dongle... the Mitosis keyboard:
   https://github.com/reversebias/mitosis

Split keyboard. Both halves wireless. Communicates with a USB microcontroller that "reads" both halves and merges them into a single HID.
BOM:
   https://github.com/babarrett/mitosis-docs/blob/master/mitosis-partslist.md
Today's quote: '...“but then the customer successfully broke that.”

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #777 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 23:17:54 »
You can find cheap esp32 boards that do bluetooth. See, e.g. https://gist.github.com/sabas1080/93115fb66e09c9b40e5857a19f3e7787
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2019, 23:19:25 by JesusFreke »

Offline legopowa

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #778 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 18:05:27 »
JesusFreke, is the base of the LALBoard metal? It looks like some kind of shaped sheet metal base.

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #779 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 18:27:05 »
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Amerimax-Flat-Shingle-8-in-x-1-ft-Galvanized-Steel-Sheet-Flashing/3010437 :)

The bottom of the posts and the handrests have magnets to hold them down onto the metal, and I put some liquid rosin on it, to increase the friction and keep things from sliding around.

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #780 on: Sat, 12 October 2019, 04:23:05 »
Finally found some time, made the chair attachment assembly, ignore the holes on the aluminium plate, leftovers from diff. project.
Whole forearm rests on the armchair, hand on the support I made, there is absolutelly no tension on shoulder/shoulder blade/chest when pressing any of the buttons, best feeling.
Whoel thing can be slid up/down or away/close to the armrest/chair
Still have to find the time to add the electronics, thank you all for the recommendations.  :thumb:

Offline iso

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #781 on: Mon, 14 October 2019, 04:23:13 »
Bad weather, decided to stay home and make at least one cluster functional, here it is, 1 min video.
Running on Teenssy 2.0.
First impression, if you watch the video you`ll see that its a complete failure trying to control the car, I`m all over the place :)
I knew is gonna be weird from regular keyboard but not this weird, feels weirder than a joystick, ony tested 5 keys, to be able to control the car.

Redesigned the whole switch asembly, too many screws/parts, simplified everything.
The main body slides inside a ballhead, this will let me adjust the angles perfectly, I will have to re-design the switches plate too.
Left 2 screws so the ballhead stays tight attached to the main body without using glue.
The moment I have all the angles right, I feel like I dont have to adjust anything, I will get rid of the ballhead and the switch body will be part of the switch plate, no more screws, less moving parts and keep it super serviceable

Adding a switch/lever is very easy, basically desolder the wires and push the switch upward.
New switches, higher quality, softer and slightly more travel distance - SKU: 549552579030 - Omron 2 pin micro switch. Those do appear from time to time on eBay, I had a handful of them from a different project and I decided to use them all, unless is really quiet, you cant hear the clicking.

Unless requested I wont upload the 3d files as I will have to revise those soon.
Overall really happy that I went this far, I feel is gonna take boatload of time to adjust to using these.


Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #782 on: Sat, 02 November 2019, 19:18:10 »
I just got most of the electronics for the LALboard, and am printing out the first finger cluster parts, after a few defective prints and 3d printer tweaking. Pretty hype about the finished product!

Thank you JesusFreke!

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #783 on: Sun, 03 November 2019, 13:07:56 »
I'm having trouble screwing the ball head screws into the screw bases. What can I do?

I imagine if the ball head screw tips were tapered like a wood screw it would allow screwing to happen.

I guess I have to figure out how to modify the .stl and do that, unless someone has another solution.

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #784 on: Sun, 03 November 2019, 14:49:23 »
I bought a thread cutting bit set, will try that in a few days.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #785 on: Sun, 03 November 2019, 15:08:03 »
You can tweak the extrusion multiplier in the slicer, or even the model itself to fine tune the fit. Every printer (and even every roll of filament) prints slightly differently, so it's expected that you'll need to fine tune things like that. It should be a pretty snug fit, but obviously still finger-turnable.

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #786 on: Sun, 17 November 2019, 10:49:18 »
For lalboard, is it possible to use the standard standoffs and nuts, instead of printing?

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #787 on: Sun, 17 November 2019, 13:34:18 »
I wasn't able to find a source for anything like the ballscrews or standoffs. Especially with the magnetic base on the standoffs. I did find some suppliers of ballscrews on alibaba, but I didn't fancy trying to purchase 2 tons of ballscrews, or whatever their minimum order is. hah :)


Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #788 on: Sun, 17 November 2019, 22:23:01 »
Is there a repo for iso’s version?

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #789 on: Sun, 17 November 2019, 22:23:58 »
The small magnets 1.5mm is hard to source outside of the US.  :eek: :eek:

Offline iso

  • Posts: 221
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #790 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 13:23:42 »
Hi. Here are some updates.

- Modified the hand piece for slightly better ergonomics - Please note that I attached the low poly version of the hand piece, you can modify and create your own version to fit hand size
- Replaced the large base with much smaller one that just as easy to attach/bolt in.
- Removed ballhead from switch itself, tested and scraped lots of prints before I decided that is best one for now and no need to fine-tune each switch.
- Re-designed switch plate - You will need to find the perfect angles for the switches while holding  your hand over the switch plate, mark it and drill tiny holes to move the m2 screws through (Or just super-glue it) - This is by design, depending on how you gonna hold your hand over the chair armrest or bolted/fixed to the table, the angles gonna change, I dont want to force you into using it as I use it.
- Re-designed switch body itself, now can be glued/screwed in using m2 flatheads - Removed lots of moving parts/points of failure/jamming - Please be aware that everything is very tight and you WILL need to clean the printed part very well, with a very sharp blade on the inside.

Printing direction is very important, clamping down on the ballheads will fatigue the PLA/ABS and slowly the layers will start separating, I have Nylon and PETG but until I got this where I want it to be I will keep testing on PLA.

Not included but soon to be added, Teensy 2.0 container.

Hack your way around it, or use:

1 x Controller
2  x M2 - 13mm flathead screw / finger
10 x M3 - 40mm flathead / hand
2 x M3 - 60mm  flathead / hand
5 x diodes / finger
5 x switches / finger
Metal washers as needed to protect the plastics

Offline JIH

  • Posts: 5
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #791 on: Thu, 21 November 2019, 11:10:43 »
what ever happened to OldDataHands original project? it seemed to be complete and just stalled. were there problems with it?
I believe this was the repository: https://github.com/christianvdstap/dodohand/blob/master/images/dodohand_logo_w_name.svg

Offline iso

  • Posts: 221
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #792 on: Thu, 21 November 2019, 12:40:24 »
I hope doesnt look like  I hijacked the thread, original Dodohand its still alive, you can get the files and all that, I just happen to more active and who doesnt love a good challenge. I had to create my own version.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #793 on: Thu, 21 November 2019, 13:11:00 »
Yeah, I had briefly looked at the dodohand when I was first thinking about making something like this. It looks like the dodohand is trying to be as close to design of the the original datahand as possible. Due to a lot of very small features, etc, it's not really printable on a hobbyist-grade fdm 3d printer, so you have to order parts from a 3d printing service (shapeways, etc.). Which is fine, just not what I was going for :)

I've been thinking about starting a new thread for mine, since it's a bit hard to find the current status/etc. in the rather large thread history here.

Offline iso

  • Posts: 221
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #794 on: Thu, 21 November 2019, 21:11:38 »
Super-glue coating works real well if you are patient, makes the print much stronger, print real slow, 20mm/s, no retract/z lift, travel speed 80mm/s, temp 220, 1 switch assembly takes about  30/35 min.
I will make my own thread soon.
I wonder how tall datahand/dodohand/lalaboard switch assembly is, with levers in palce and all that.



Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #795 on: Thu, 21 November 2019, 21:25:24 »
About 25mm for the lalboard, from the bottom of the "pcb" to the top of the tallest key, not including the JST connector on the bottom.

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #796 on: Fri, 22 November 2019, 07:55:14 »
what ever happened to OldDataHands original project? it seemed to be complete and just stalled. were there problems with it?
I believe this was the repository: https://github.com/christianvdstap/dodohand/blob/master/images/dodohand_logo_w_name.svg
I think the DodoHand thumb cluster isn't complete.

Offline JIH

  • Posts: 5
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #797 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 17:26:43 »
each of these keyboards are very neat. It's nice to see them all in one spot. Another thought, on the topic of superglue drying: would it help to use an accelerant? It hardens instantly. I use it to assemble the 3dlabprints rc planes

Offline iso

  • Posts: 221
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #798 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 18:18:42 »
I`ve always used the Loctite SuperGlue, gives me about 30 sec before becomes too thick. If you`re generous with it wont instantly dry.
This works the best on porous surfaces, like overhangs, like on my video.
After drying you can smooth the surface with a file/sandpaper. Dont ruin your file, make sure is dry first.
Then repeat, dont clean the plastic dust, that helps with bonding. Second coat should be glass-shiny unless you sand it again.
I use strips of tissue paper to insta-dry if by mistake I add too much, then file it off. Sorry for the vertical video.

* Coating_1.mp4 (11518 kB - downloaded 27 times.)230709-1

Offline HeuristicBishop

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: New York
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #799 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 21:31:26 »
I've got all the components to build 3 lalboards. One for myself, one for a friend, and one for...well that's going to be a surprise  ;D

Out of curiosity, would anyone be interested in a separate thread documenting the upcoming adventure(build)? I don't want to start muddying up this thread with build progress.