must... resist... topre

[noisyturtle]

MX

For once I agree with you. All these fools staining their underwear over a switch that feels marginally better than a standard rubber dome board. Part of me still thinks it's just some inside joke here on GH à la Cherry MY.

What did you expect to find in this thread? "Hey guys, I just bought a new keyboard... Ya, I know, it's topre so it's gonna suck, but I wanted to get one to see how dumb those losers that enjoy their stupid, high priced boards wrongly rave about."

I enjoy the differences between BS and Mx and I'm sure I'll appreciate the differences Topre will bring.

Food for thought: Almost all Topre owners started out with an Mx board and many still own them. The ones that own/have owned both almost unanimously prefer their Topre boards. What separates them from Mx diehards is that they limit the location of where they post their preference to pro Topre threads. I have not read very many Topre threads in the archive over the past few months that don't have some sad Mx troll walking the proverbial halls looking for attention. For that reason alone; I'm glad to be associated with Topre owners.

Get out of my thread. I suggest you start a "I hate topre" thread and you and your disrespectful cohorts can have a nice cozy home to play in.

I never once said I hated Topre, merely implied that they are overrated.

[MKULTRA]

It took at least a decade for the patents on the original Nintendo Entertainment System to expire, so logically it would take at least that long for a Topre clone to come about. Anyone know a Japanese patent lawyer? 

Unless of course some enterprising company comes up with a deal to license the technology, but that would probably still be prohibitively expensive.

But how cheap can a clone get without compromising feel? The electronics would have to be simplified much further than Topre currently is, and then you have to take into account the cost of the premium cup rubber, the springs, and the keycaps especially if they were to use PBT too like most Topre boards. The fact that clones probably aren't going to be mass produced either makes me think that the cost of a decent Topre clone will be pretty close in price to a real Topre keyboard.

 )

[Sniping]

It took at least a decade for the patents on the original Nintendo Entertainment System to expire, so logically it would take at least that long for a Topre clone to come about. Anyone know a Japanese patent lawyer? 

Unless of course some enterprising company comes up with a deal to license the technology, but that would probably still be prohibitively expensive.

But how cheap can a clone get without compromising feel? The electronics would have to be simplified much further than Topre currently is, and then you have to take into account the cost of the premium cup rubber, the springs, and the keycaps especially if they were to use PBT too like most Topre boards. The fact that clones probably aren't going to be mass produced either makes me think that the cost of a decent Topre clone will be pretty close in price to a real Topre keyboard.

 )

50 million keystrokes can't be justified simply because Topre has a spring and regular rubber domes don't. It's design and material of cup rubber that differentiates Topre and a generic keyboard, especially in terms of longevity, the different feel comes from various factors. There's no doubt that cup rubber and its silicone mixture costs extra money to make.

[Thimplum]

There's no doubt that cup rubber and its silicone mixture costs extra money to make.

What? $0.02

[Sniping]

I don't believe you have the means of figuring out the unique mixture that they're using, that plus the special shape of cup rubber also adds production cost.

[Michael]

special shape of cup rubber

[Sniping]

special shape of cup rubber

it all makes sense now

[Thimplum]

I don't believe you have the means of figuring out the unique mixture that they're using, that plus the special shape of cup rubber also adds production cost.

I don't. But I refuse to believe that it costs more than 10 cents to make the cup rubber. The special shape? It's probably injection molded, so why would it cost a ton?. If you feel that Topre is worth a ton of money to you, GREAT! Just don't make stuff up to say that they don't make an absurd profit off of it. I'm not saying that cherry doesn't, though.

[Sniping]

I don't believe you have the means of figuring out the unique mixture that they're using, that plus the special shape of cup rubber also adds production cost.

I don't. But I refuse to believe that it costs more than 10 cents to make the cup rubber. The special shape? It's probably injection molded, so why would it cost a ton?. If you feel that Topre is worth a ton of money to you, GREAT! Just don't make stuff up to say that they don't make an absurd profit off of it. I'm not saying that cherry doesn't, though.

Do they make absurd profit? A realforce 108UBK is $160 USD on amazon.jp. A full PBT dyesub set probably costs around $60, so there's $100 left for everything else. Now, I'm not sure how much it costs them to make everything else on a large scale, but if we agree on 10 cents each for a dome, that's $10 for the whole board, plus conical springs, plus the PCB, plus the plate, plus the case, and pretty soon you can see that they aren't making "absurd profit".

[fuzzybaffy]

Didn't someone say Topre's profit margins were something in the area of 7%, which is average for a corporation?

[Thimplum]

I don't believe you have the means of figuring out the unique mixture that they're using, that plus the special shape of cup rubber also adds production cost.

I don't. But I refuse to believe that it costs more than 10 cents to make the cup rubber. The special shape? It's probably injection molded, so why would it cost a ton?. If you feel that Topre is worth a ton of money to you, GREAT! Just don't make stuff up to say that they don't make an absurd profit off of it. I'm not saying that cherry doesn't, though.

Do they make absurd profit? A realforce 108UBK is $160 USD on amazon.jp. A full PBT dyesub set probably costs around $60, so there's $100 left for everything else. Now, I'm not sure how much it costs them to make everything else on a large scale, but if we agree on 10 cents each for a dome, that's $10 for the whole board, plus conical springs, plus the PCB, plus the plate, plus the case, and pretty soon you can see that they aren't making "absurd profit".

Ah man! This guy has TOTALLY screwed me over with his logic! Watch out!

[unicomp_uc]

Not to mention paying the salaries of the people who not only make the boards but conceptualize, design, test, re-design, oversee production, market and distribute the boards... then you can't forget about the factory they're made in costs a **** ton monthly and I'm sure utilities on a manufacturing plant aren't cheap... then when you think you're done you've got that pesky liability insurance, employee benefits and attorneys fees that you have to keep on retainer and you're looking at a much larger cost then $0.10 per rubber cup.

Every manufactured product has at least some semblance of these costs so it should be a given that every above mentioned variable that goes in to the final product will be analyzed to achieve the lowest cost.

Can we move on from going back and forth about if a particular board is excessively profitable? Do they make money on each board? I would hope so or else they won't be around long.

[Danule]

Topre is also made in Japan, not China or Taiwan so it costs more for the factory to be there too.

[Sniping]

For Realforce and HHKB, that is.

[noisyturtle]

What is sort of amusing is that when someone talks smack about Topre, fans get all up in arms. But when someone talks smack about any other switch, fans of that switch don't get upset. Just an observation.

[Michael]

What is sort of amusing is that when someone talks smack about Topre, fans get all up in arms. But when someone talks smack about any other switch, fans of that switch don't get upset. Just an observation.

Not really. What I see mostly, are people going out of their way to talk smack about topre. I don't really see the opposite of this anywhere on the forums. It's like people think Topre is some sort of cult they need
to make fun of, just because it's not mainstream and the uneducated relate them directly to cheap rubber dome keyboards.

[noisyturtle]

What is sort of amusing is that when someone talks smack about Topre, fans get all up in arms. But when someone talks smack about any other switch, fans of that switch don't get upset. Just an observation.

Not really. What I see mostly, are people going out of their way to talk smack about topre. I don't really see the opposite of this anywhere on the forums. It's like people think Topre is some sort of cult they need
to make fun of, just because it's not mainstream and the uneducated relate them directly to cheap rubber dome keyboards.

They are nice feeling and the ones I've typed on (RF 45g and 55g) had great build quality, but right next to a rubber dome (Logitech g15) they still feel too similar for me to justify that markup. That's really the only quibble I have with them, but there's no question that they do feel better than a standard rubber dome.

[Polymer]

Being somewhat similar doesn't mean it is bad though...

The MAIN mechanism is a rubber dome..that is where it gets most of its feel..but if you've used it for any period of time you'll see it isn't just a rubber dome...the stability, solidness, sound and overall feel/quality completely separates it.

I do dislike certain aspects about Topre but is more has to do with availability.  I dislike that there are so few options keyboard wise...I dislike that you can't get custom boards..I dislike that the keycap selection is so poor. 

[unicomp_uc]

Which statement brings in more negative responses?:

I like blues
I like browns
I like reds
I like clears
I like buckling springs
I like topre


.....

Literally never seen a post that discredits any switch except topre... sure I may see, "o really, well I like XYZ more in this situation" but if you say you like topre, you run the risk of some dip **** living in his mom's basement testifying to a non-existent congregation.

It's like overhearing some guy at a bar order an orange juice and vodka and you're like "that's disgusting, you should get a rum and coke." The only response you'd expect to receive (and the reason you don't actually put your big boy pants on and voice your opinion) is because you'd undoubtedly hear: "shut the **** up, no one asked you, *******".

You're entitled to your own opinion, just do it elsewhere. This is my thread, I'm excited to receive my keyboard. Instead of brotherly love and acceptance I've had to find solace in owning little 23,000+ post members that have nothing better to do than rain on someone's parade.... awesome, welcome to geekhack.

[Elrick]

It's like people think Topre is some sort of cult they need to make fun of, just because it's not mainstream and the uneducated relate them directly to cheap rubber dome keyboards.

The fundamental fact of TOPRE (thorpes as some like to call them on here) is that it IS a RUBBER DOME with SPRING.  What more can be said?

I know the 'Thorpie lovers' tend to paint a coloured rainbow of worship around their purchases and HATE anyone who dismisses that.  I would say in return, ignore the naysayers because if you're happy with it you don't need anyone's approval here on Geekhack.  In fact you don't need anyone to change your opinion on anything in life  .

[Michael]

It's like people think Topre is some sort of cult they need to make fun of, just because it's not mainstream and the uneducated relate them directly to cheap rubber dome keyboards.

The fundamental fact of TOPRE (thorpes as some like to call them on here) is that it IS a RUBBER DOME with SPRING.  What more can be said?

I know the 'Thorpie lovers' tend to paint a coloured rainbow of worship around their purchases and HATE anyone who dismisses that.  I would say in return, ignore the naysayers because if you're happy with it you don't need anyone's approval here on Geekhack.  In fact you don't need anyone to change your opinion on anything in life  .

Apparently you missed what I said, even though you quoted what I said. I will just leave it at that.

[tbc]

i know you said topre isn't mainstream...but do you mean it's not mainstream on the forum or out of 7 billion people?  There seems to be a HUGE percentage of topre users here; you don't need to be the majority to be mainstream.

[Michael]

i know you said topre isn't mainstream...but do you mean it's not mainstream on the forum or out of 7 billion people?  There seems to be a HUGE percentage of topre users here; you don't need to be the majority to be mainstream.

I am referring to our forum. And by mainstream I mean the general more affordable keyboards on the market (Sub 200 dollar boards).

[unicomp_uc]

To answer two posts above... The majority of people on geekhack have one of everything at somepoint in there time here, so your percentages are useless.

To answer the other people who are trying to desperately hold on to an argument:

It's like a couple that has been together too long and doesn't remember why they are arguing. Do you remember why mechanical switches are better than rubberdome? Is it because the recepter is made of rubber or is it really because there is ONLY ONE recepter and it happens to be made of rubber? Ummm, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I don't think it would matter if the lone recepter was made of magneseum; one receptor for 104, 103, 87, 60 keys is going to result in an isolated, mushy experience.

So the fact that Topre effectively answers the problem of membrane keyboards by individualizing each switch then takes it further by making them capacitative completely goes by the wayside simply because their cores are made out of the same material???

Ok then, guess what; a 2001 Kia Sorento and a 2013 BMW 335i's dash are both made out of plastic. one is bull **** and the other is finely grained and detailed... I guess we should start comparing based on material choices.

You all wear me out.

[AKIMbO]

Lol...what the hell is going on in this thread. I can't keep track of who is the topre proponet and who is the opponent. 

[Michael]

Lol...what the hell is going on in this thread. I can't keep track of who is the topre proponet and who is the opponent.

It's pretty lame that you have to do that at all.

[unicomp_uc]

This thread is like every other topre thread. I'm disappointed in geekhack. I expected more... This is a site where literally everyone in it would be bullied and called a loser if we said this **** out loud to a "normal" person.

Instead of this being a cool escape/refugee camp for fellow tactile nerds; it's a place where i'm forced to sit behind my keyboard and defend my purchase or accept that some nobody is talking crap. At least my arguments are way better. I'll sleep well tonight.

And soon I will become one with cup rubber....... *****es lol

[ctbear]

This thread is like every other topre thread. I'm disappointed in geekhack. I expected more... This is a site where literally everyone in it would be bullied and called a loser if we said this **** out loud to a "normal" person.

Instead of this being a cool escape/refugee camp for fellow tactile nerds; it's a place where i'm forced to sit behind my keyboard and defend my purchase or accept that some nobody is talking crap. At least my arguments are way better. I'll sleep well tonight.

And soon I will become one with cup rubber....... *****es lol

I say just enjoy your new board. I had the same doubt about Topre boards but after actually owning one for a while I can understand why people love them so much. Rubber cups or not, they feel good, and that's all I need to justify the premium.

[unicomp_uc]

thanks man for the kind words. The scarcity of them makes me appreciate them more. Much love

[noisyturtle]

This thread is like every other topre thread. I'm disappointed in geekhack. I expected more... This is a site where literally everyone in it would be bullied and called a loser if we said this **** out loud to a "normal" person.

Instead of this being a cool escape/refugee camp for fellow tactile nerds; it's a place where i'm forced to sit behind my keyboard and defend my purchase or accept that some nobody is talking crap. At least my arguments are way better. I'll sleep well tonight.

And soon I will become one with cup rubber....... *****es lol

Woah woah, no one's trying to make you feel like that here. This is just a lively (or dead horse) debate. No one's attempting to bully or make jest at your purchase. Some folks have different opinions than you do, welcome to the internet, really if you want to see a thread devolve check out some of the after clack sale threads 
But seriously, don't take anything anyone here says in an opinionated fashion too heavily, relax and know that we all love each other here.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46161.0

[unicomp_uc]

There's a time and place for all things spirited. I'm new to posting on this forum but have posted on many others for my many other interests.

With that said; since apparently some need a basic etiquette refresher, please read on: If you want to start debating the valaidity on a product or idea; do it on: A) Your own thread, or B) A "hypothetical" or "Need Advice" type thread.

Posting opinions (key word) that goes against the action that caused the origination of the thread is mean spirited no matter how you try to back track.

[tbc]

strongly, strongly disagree with that.

a forum thread IS NOT a PM chain.  It is preserved and PUBLIC at all times.  Therefore, the target audience and 'judge' of quality is NOT just the OP; it is every single person who will open and read the thread.

yes, that is how a wiki works; have you looked at edit histories of wiki pages?  they look just like forum threads with people talking back and forth (usually with the exact same arguments).  Yet, no one would agree that a read-only wiki is a good thing.

[unicomp_uc]

I guess I look at it more like common sense (and decency) if you wouldn't do it in person, why do it on the internet? Because we can't see you???

If this exchange happened in the office that we worked at together and we were as close as we are now; would you say I made a stupid decision (As was done repeatedly based off many inferences that were clear enough for my dogs to interpret)?

To each their own... every community is differnt. I'm glad to have this happen early on in my posting. I still love the research opportunities and resources, but having the same batters coming up to hit the same pitches at every opportunity is kind of ridiculous.

[unicomp_uc]

strongly, strongly disagree with that.

a forum thread IS NOT a PM chain.  It is preserved and PUBLIC at all times.  Therefore, the target audience and 'judge' of quality is NOT just the OP; it is every single person who will open and read the thread.

yes, that is how a wiki works; have you looked at edit histories of wiki pages?  they look just like forum threads with people talking back and forth (usually with the exact same arguments).  Yet, no one would agree that a read-only wiki is a good thing.

And please let me add emphasis and perhaps one further piece of clarification since you strongly (strongly) disagree. I gave two examples where a spirited debate- Wiki style, comment building, diversifying debate would thrive and at the same time cause no reasonable person anguish. I limited my "Wow, you really just said that?" judgement to this very specific style of thread.... the: "I just bought xyz!!!!"...

Don't be a ****. If you don't like something that someone else purchased; shake your head, call them an idiot to yourself, hit the back button and find something else you can actually make a contribution towards.... I'm not trying to squash freedom of speech and spirited debate; just trying to squash douchebagitis.

[Linkbane]

Don't be a ****.
hit the back button and find something else you can actually make a contribution towards.... I'm not trying to squash freedom of speech and spirited debate; just trying to squash douchebagitis.

How's that turning out for you, my do-gooder friend?

[unicomp_uc]

It's a PSA, not the forum rules... Lol, I'm great, I have a Filco, BS, HHKB, a life and apparently now I'm a do gooder. Life is good.

[tbc]

did I post in this thread earlier?  I don't remember saying you made a bad purchase or topre sucks.

[unicomp_uc]

I don't think I said that you did.

I thought it was clear that when I said "you", I meant a person that did what I was referencing.

[saturnotaku]

I'm not trying to squash freedom of speech and spirited debate; just trying to squash douchebagitis.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply to a private forum. Everything posted here is subject to editing/moderation or deletion at sole discretion of the moderators and administrators.

[PadawanGeek]

Despite the naysayers and opponents of Topre, when you get it, try it out for a few days to a couple of weeks, it's quite likely you'd love it. After collecting quite a few MX keyboards, I'd decided to try a Topre keyboard, now I have four! My fave is the 55G on my 103UB, awesome to type.....and game on. Strangely enough, I find myself making less mistakes using Topre than on my MX switch keyboards, don't know why though. BTW, when you get the board, I hope you enjoy it......

[noisyturtle]

I'm not trying to squash freedom of speech and spirited debate; just trying to squash douchebagitis.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply to a private forum. Everything posted here is subject to editing/moderation or deletion at sole discretion of the moderators and administrators.

Now HERE'S a touchy GH subject!

[Polymer]

Despite the naysayers and opponents of Topre, when you get it, try it out for a few days to a couple of weeks, it's quite likely you'd love it. After collecting quite a few MX keyboards, I'd decided to try a Topre keyboard, now I have four! My fave is the 55G on my 103UB, awesome to type.....and game on. Strangely enough, I find myself making less mistakes using Topre than on my MX switch keyboards, don't know why though. BTW, when you get the board, I hope you enjoy it......

And if he doesn't, he can probably sell it for close to what he got it for...

Most people that are flipping their Topre quickly after getting it haven't given it enough time..for those that have and still don't like it, fair enough..not every switch is for every person....

The funny thing is, it is bad enough some people form a strong opinion without having given it time but then you have some GHers that have never tried it and try to convince others it is no good..to me that's just LOL bad..

[unicomp_uc]

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to it. It's coming in town tomorrow!

[SNF]

From my experience 1st time trying topre boards I was sorta expecting some sort of special feeling or instant gratification since these boards comes with a heavy price tag.  It wasn't until I sold the topre that I started missing it when going back to cherry boards.

Definitely takes time for the appreciation to grow...... so now I'm back with topre and loving it 

[tlt]

The biggest change for me after using a Topre for a while is that regular cheap rubber dome keyboards feels really bad.

[lazylex]

Well I got my very first Topre board in today, the FC660C. I'm in the minority of users as I have had instant attraction for the switch -- love at first fondling (oooooh yeeaah) *cue smooth jazz*

Coming from MX Green as my daily driver and a collection of blue, red, brown and black switches, the keys feel incredibly smooth on both press and rebound, avoiding all forms of scratchiness while providing an unexpected amount of tactility for such a light switch. I have heard the FC660c's 45g feel a tad heavier than on others, such as the Realforce.

I do still enjoy my MX Green quite a bit for its "fun" factor. I have a MX Clear board coming in the mail sometime this week and I will post my thoughts on both switches.

[unicomp_uc]

Glad to hear you enjoy your new board so much!

[reziak]

I've been holding out on Topre for my wallet's sake, but then participated in a few group buys and spent enough to have bought myself an HHKB anyway. This place, it does strange things to your inner voice of reason. 'Grats on the new board!

[PadawanGeek]

I've been holding out on Topre for my wallet's sake, but then participated in a few group buys and spent enough to have bought myself an HHKB anyway. This place, it does strange things to your inner voice of reason. 'Grats on the new board!

That's why I avoid the GB thread like the plague, hence my budget's not busted on GB's......so, I can afford to build up my collection of keyboards.

[tbc]

I've been holding out on Topre for my wallet's sake, but then participated in a few group buys and spent enough to have bought myself an HHKB anyway. This place, it does strange things to your inner voice of reason. 'Grats on the new board!

it's really weird.  I'm normally a conservative bastard, but the amount I've spent on metal novelties is mindboggling - and i'm not even done yet....