Upgrading from the Model M

[MOZ]

This is why I want to try a Model F, the cheapest one, irrespective of the layout. I know I won't be using it much in anycase since I am getting used to the ErgoDox layout. It is for the collection and the experience of using an F. I have my first BS, a Unicomp PC122 on the way.

My prediction: you get it, you love it but hate the layout -- and then you get sucked into the sand pit of modding it to ANSI... good luck!  I love my Model F 122, I don't even mind the layout anymore. It could use a flossing maybe, but other than that it's awesome.

You read me bro!

[Krogenar]

You read me bro!

Or, like me, you just begin to love the keys and the vertical Enter key is forgotten.

[ch_123]

No.2 is the F AT. Nice layout, but spacebar needs both thumbs to press and not to mention there is that gigantic ancient return key made for people with F AT little fingers and lack of modern ctrl-alt-windows keys on the bottom row.

There's a mod for the space bar on the AT and XT which lightens it out.

Meanwhile, in beam spring land, the 5251, which has an almost identical layout to the XT is sought after by some for having the most sensible layout

[jkercado]

Not exactly an upgrade, but I got an Unicomp Ultra Classic 104, while still keeping my 1989 Model M. The reason? I wanted a daily drive at the office that wouldn't leave me stranded. I know, chances are that maybe the Unicomp will give up the ghost before the M, but there's a sense of certain security by having a recently-built (7/17/2012) unit.

Also, the fact that it takes less space is a nice plus, and I also don't feel guilty by modifying it--changing keycaps, etc.

So maybe not an upgrade, but more like a companion for daily use. 

[Hellmark]

I thought about flossing my M, but I ended up not doing it, and really kinda like it as is now. It is kinda soothing to hear the rapid fire hammering as I am typing. I really love it when I am on a tear and just ripping up and down the keys. My new cube at work is fairly well sound proofed, with sound baffles on 3 of the four sides, so my neighbors really don't seem to hear it all that much.

The tall enter you really don't notice after a while. If you type much on keys that wear fast, you'll see that you tend to get certain patterns down where you hit the keys. With different shapes, you may shift a bit of where you strike the key, but once you're used to the difference then things just seem natural.

[berserkfan]

I second fohat on this. And I love his analogy of a car that you buy knowing you love working on cars, despite all that nasty grease and dirt.

I rant because I hate the frustration of fixing something beyond my abilities, but I actually love spending time working on my keyboards - cleaning, sanding, disinfecting, dyeing, painting, fixing up the teensy. As disgusting as a keyboard is when it is dirty, I will rather personally clean it up than have another man do it for me. This way, it's MINE.

And I feel sorry for fohat when he tries to sell a keyboard. I mean, his time is already being valued at less than minimum wage in Bangladesh, and people still won't pay for it.

Furthermore, let me speak a few words on behalf of fohat. F XT is a BIG PAIN to fix. F122 is probably an ULTRA UEBER PAIN. (There are not two but three rows of tabs which makes it exponentially harder to put togehter properly, not to mention the curvature of the plate and the extra row on top of the keyboard make it even harder to put together without at least one hammer coming out of place.) Those who don't do their own fixing don't understand how insulting it is when they throw low balls at fohat.

If you tried a model F, you would like it, but all Model Fs have their problems and quirks.

You should consider a vintage classic keyboard like a vintage classic car.

Most people buy one is some state of disrepair from "barely running" to "rusting in a field with weeds growing through the body" because they enjoy, or at least tolerate, the process of grinding and repairing and rebuilding at the workbench as part of the endeavor.

Unlike the car, where an immaculately restored pristine functioning specimen can be purchased at a price, regardless how high, those keyboards are simply not generally available.

And, my personal experience has shown that although people post here all the time about how much they want one, they feel like they should be available for cheap. I have gotten pretty disgusted with the attitude because I have been through the difficult and protracted process of locating, buying, and building several of these. Believe me, MANY hours are consumed with a large quotient of frustration.

If you want a Model F in a useable configuration but are unwilling to take the beast apart and put it back together, then you need to forget it and stick with the Model M. The robust case and strict ANSI layout are very comforting.

In my opinion, if I sold one of mine, an appropriate price would be something on the order of twice the price of a brand new Topre or a bolt-modded SSK. Whoever squawks at that statement has never done one himself, and anyone who has will nod his head in agreement.

[berserkfan]

i use F XT on a daily basis. It is frustrating at times, but somehow I got used to the frustration and the typos and can't stop.

I do have an F122 that I have vowed to start to repair by October 1 next year. That means sometime in September 2014 I will start work on it. Who knows? I might be using it daily by October 2, 2014 (HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA)

Just looking to get it cheaply. It is highly unlikely I would use it as a daily

It's highly unlikely you'd use it at all. Well, other than to fondle the keys occasionally and wish it were an AT so you could actually get some use out of it. And other than the happy soul which fohat sold his F XT to, I've never heard of anyone who does use one, even on an irregular basis. Unless you're buying it solely as a collectible, I wouldn't bother.

[fohat.digs]

F122 is probably an ULTRA UBER PAIN.

Especially if you handicap yourself by trying to do it without the proper tools.

These things were made in factories where 5-ton presses were standing around waiting to press something.

I get messages from people about their failures, but they always admit that they are not using a comprehensive set of clamps to do this:

[Hellmark]

Berzerkfan, I'm kinda in the same boat. I really do like working on things. For my M, I had bought a predrilled barrel plate from someone who had a spare, simply because I didn't trust doing things with the tools at my disposal. For something like that, I'd only feel comfortable drilling with a drill press, and I lost a bunch of tools in a fire. Right now, I am in a small apartment, with just a smattering of hand tools. I don't even have an electric drill (just a push drill that I use on PCBs). I knew if I were to try, I'd **** it up. Once I had it, I was like a pig in slop. I was happy tearing everything apart (which it needed it, about half of the plastic blobs was broke off). I think I'd like working on an F, despite the increased difficulty, partially because I know that i could work on everything with the tools I have, and that it is tinkerable.

[fohat.digs]

if you don't like doing fussy, tedious handiwork at the workbench, you should buy a standard keyboard off the shelf.

mess around with goofy key caps if you need something to do.

[Hellmark]

Crap, sorry about that.

Please don't pester the man, he did me a solid because he had a spare.

I guess I need to stop posting when I've only had 3 or 4 hours sleep.

[berserkfan]

I think you can handle the F XT. Me, I've put them together successfully just that they still don't work and Ihaven' been able to figure outwhy. BTW you can see that when I choose not to correct my spacebar typos, they're there.

Berzerkfan, I'm kinda in the same boat. I really do like working on things. For my M, I had bought a predrilled barrel plate from someone who had a spare, simply because I didn't trust doing things with the tools at my disposal. For something like that, I'd only feel comfortable drilling with a drill press, and I lost a bunch of tools in a fire. Right now, I am in a small apartment, with just a smattering of hand tools. I don't even have an electric drill (just a push drill that I use on PCBs). I knew if I were to try, I'd **** it up. Once I had it, I was like a pig in slop. I was happy tearing everything apart (which it needed it, about half of the plastic blobs was broke off). I think I'd like working on an F, despite the increased difficulty, partially because I know that i could work on everything with the tools I have, and that it is tinkerable.

[Hellmark]

On yours, is it certain keys don't work, or the board just acts dead?

[ch_123]

Furthermore, let me speak a few words on behalf of fohat. F XT is a BIG PAIN to fix. F122 is probably an ULTRA UEBER PAIN. (There are not two but three rows of tabs which makes it exponentially harder to put togehter properly, not to mention the curvature of the plate and the extra row on top of the keyboard make it even harder to put together without at least one hammer coming out of place.) Those who don't do their own fixing don't understand how insulting it is when they throw low balls at fohat.

From what I've been led to believe, the XTs (and many of the oddball Model F terminal designs) are hard to reassemble than the ATs and 122s due to their plates being more curved than the AT's and 122's. This, however, accounts for the fact that the older Model Fs are nicer to type on as the plates and switch modules are clasped together more tightly. (I believe that bolt modding the later designs can help make them nicer to type on)

[Parak]

Oddly enough, I didn't have too many issues sliding back 122s together even after foam replacement - though I didn't use thick foam, but rather 1/32 epdm. It did need some helping along, mostly via putting it sideways and applying downward force on the top plate. I can easily see, however, how a set of clamps will make it trivial, though, particularly a long one (pipe, etc) like fohat showed.

[berserkfan]

on my latest try, nothing show up on keyboardtester.com, BUT HIDlisten returns two rffs for each key. Does that sound like there is electrical connection? I can reassure you that I HAVE tried different cables, teensies, adapters, etc. and ALL of them are not the problem. I've contacted soarer and am awaiting his sacred reply.

On yours, is it certain keys don't work, or the board just acts dead?

[fohat.digs]

From what I've been led to believe, the XTs (and many of the oddball Model F terminal designs) are hard to reassemble than the ATs and 122s due to their plates being more curved than the AT's and 122's.

The XTs I did went back together easily. Part of it depends on whether the plates are "happy" or "sprung" in their respective curvatures.

The huge span of the F-122 curve, and the fact that there are 3 of them that have to nest comfortably, make it tight.

All of my F-122s now get about 3-4 bolts along the innermost spine of curvature, between the numbers and upper F keys, and one over near the 6-pack.

[Game Theory]

I am planning on using relatively soft 1/32" silicone on the F AT.  I also have some 1/16" if the 1/32" is too thin.  Also have some 1/16" neoprene.

[fohat.digs]

I am planning on using relatively soft 1/32" silicone on the F AT.  I also have some 1/16" if the 1/32" is too thin.  Also have some 1/16" neoprene.

I would be interested to hear how it works. The barrels (aka chimneys) embed themselves into the mat, and I have come to like the thicker, sturdier mats better, but that may just be me. Foam will compress quite a lot, silicone probably won't.

[Game Theory]

I would be interested to hear how it works. The barrels (aka chimneys) embed themselves into the mat, and I have come to like the thicker, sturdier mats better, but that may just be me. Foam will compress quite a lot, silicone probably won't.

Will do.  Mind if I ask what thickness of neoprene you tried?

[fohat.digs]

I would be interested to hear how it works. The barrels (aka chimneys) embed themselves into the mat, and I have come to like the thicker, sturdier mats better, but that may just be me. Foam will compress quite a lot, silicone probably won't.

Will do.  Mind if I ask what thickness of neoprene you tried?

I don't know, I got it from wcass. It was probably the thinnest, softest type. It was very light and fragile.

[Game Theory]

Probably 1/32 or 1/64th.  Figuring out the best thickness would have been easier if I had kept the existing mat and measured the thickness:)

[Parak]

60 duro 1/32 epdm worked for me quite nicely, other than being hard to punch and close. Softer silicone of same thickness may be easier to close, though, but may also tear easier.

[bitslasher]

I caught the keyboard bug at the beginning of this year.  I'm a software developer and used a model M as my daily driver since the mid 90s.

This year I managed to find a great deal on eBay for an AT F-84 for $49.99 BIN.  Then another guy on eBay had a pair of F-122s, one looked like it was run over and the other looked like it had been rescued from a WW2 shipwreck.  He wanted over $100 each for them but they didn't sale after relisting a couple times and I worked out a much better deal with him.  I got them for parts so I could convert the AT-F to ANSI and do the M-space bar transplant and add ALT keys.

I first did the AT-F mod.  It's now like a "neo-industrial Model F".  Using the very informative posts here I was able to successfully do the ANSI mod and add the ALT AND spacebar mod.  Added a teensy and painted the case using a dead-on match for the industrial M color.  Did a cool two-tone grey scheme like I saw on an ancient Cherry board over on Deskthority.  It now is a modern board in every way, "natively" USB with a modern layout, and pretty quiet with flossed springs.

As at testament to how incredibly durable these boards are, by the time I was finished I was able to also restore the better of the F-122s, with ANSI and teensy as well (it's dated Oct 1984!).  Finally I got the other one restored with the help of "fohat", sending me some extra barrels and springs.

I rattle on here just to make the point that getting one of these things is just fun to do.  Starting with something that looks like a totally useless and obsolete piece of hardware and restoring into something that is not just functional, but superior to anything you can buy new today is cool. The only thing needed to do it is patience.

A couple observations about the F:  like others have said, they are totally different boards from the M.  Oak Technology made the F (at least the internals).  The F-122s have "birth certificates" like the model M, stamped with a date of manufacture. They are way more heavy than an M, and solid.  The key action is light and smooth.  Because of the large hammers and capacitive PCB plate they rock on, they are much louder than the small hammers that rock on top of the M's plastic membrane and plate.

I'll stop going on now....just get one and have fun with it!  There is tons of stuff you can do with them.

[snoopy]

I caught the keyboard bug at the beginning of this year.  I'm a software developer and used a model M as my daily driver since the mid 90s.

This year I managed to find a great deal on eBay for an AT F-84 for $49.99 BIN.  Then another guy on eBay had a pair of F-122s, one looked like it was run over and the other looked like it had been rescued from a WW2 shipwreck.  He wanted over $100 each for them but they didn't sale after relisting a couple times and I worked out a much better deal with him.  I got them for parts so I could convert the AT-F to ANSI and do the M-space bar transplant and add ALT keys.

I first did the AT-F mod.  It's now like a "neo-industrial Model F".  Using the very informative posts here I was able to successfully do the ANSI mod and add the ALT AND spacebar mod.  Added a teensy and painted the case using a dead-on match for the industrial M color.  Did a cool two-tone grey scheme like I saw on an ancient Cherry board over on Deskthority.  It now is a modern board in every way, "natively" USB with a modern layout, and pretty quiet with flossed springs.

As at testament to how incredibly durable these boards are, by the time I was finished I was able to also restore the better of the F-122s, with ANSI and teensy as well (it's dated Oct 1984!).  Finally I got the other one restored with the help of "fohat", sending me some extra barrels and springs.

I rattle on here just to make the point that getting one of these things is just fun to do.  Starting with something that looks like a totally useless and obsolete piece of hardware and restoring into something that is not just functional, but superior to anything you can buy new today is cool. The only thing needed to do it is patience.

A couple observations about the F:  like others have said, they are totally different boards from the M.  Oak Technology made the F (at least the internals).  The F-122s have "birth certificates" like the model M, stamped with a date of manufacture. They are way more heavy than an M, and solid.  The key action is light and smooth.  Because of the large hammers and capacitive PCB plate they rock on, they are much louder than the small hammers that rock on top of the M's plastic membrane and plate.

I'll stop going on now....just get one and have fun with it!  There is tons of stuff you can do with them.

Would love to see some pics of them, especially from the painted one.

[ch_123]

Oak Technology made the F (at least the internals).

What's your source for this? I seem to recall that there were one or two Model Fs that have been posted on here which had the internals swapped for a third party one made by a company called Oak, but these were not buckling spring keyboards. IBM certainly assembled the internals of the Model F (see the video below) although whether all the parts were made by IBM themselves is hard to know.

[bitslasher]

Hi ch_123,
I caught the bug at the beginning of this year, so my knowledge is likely not as exhaustive many of you guys.  So I was only offering some observations, perhaps they were too general.  The Model Fs I have rebuilt (only 3 of them, and only spanning two models-- the 6450200 (84-key AT-F) and the 6110345 (122-key 3180 Terminal), had word "OAK" embedded in the capacitive plate PCB.  That was my only observation.  I have no idea about who's factory they were built in.  Maybe OAK was only the OEM of the plate part only, I'm not sure.  Where the Fs and Ms made in the same factories?

I plan on taking pictures of my boards and posting them soon.  I think I'm done accumulating boards, now it's time to reflect and share.