[IC] ALPS Switches & ALPS Custom Springs - in August 2016

[sprit]

       


ALPS Springs - Introducing in August 2016

Thanks for the Long Wait!   After the long IC, I'd like to introduce Alps Custom Springs Worldwide.
Already prototyped in 2012-2014, will mass produced in this August.   
I will update the progress.   https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0   [Update July 1st 2016]


[IC]  ALPS  Custom Springs   >   Mod note: link removed due to sprit being MIA.  Order from him at your own risk! 


IC will go until enough opinions, discussions & interests are identified among us. 
A Groupbuy for the Simplified Alps switches From Taiwan, or China, may open in June after enough discussion and mind sharing.
 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.0    [GB]   Alps   PCB    by  Hasu
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.0    [GB]   Alps   Plate   by  Nubbinator
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70817.0    [GB]   Alps   modifier Caps   by  Badwrench
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49407.0    Teaser
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49408.0    Teaser
 

The GB Thread   :    https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0    


 

[FrostyToast]

55g springs are the only ones I am missing.
I hope to complete my collection. 

[nubbinator]

I could do with more 62g springs, but I really want some custom Alps springs.

[sprit]

I could do with more 62g springs, but I really want some custom Alps springs.

   
Alps custom springs -  might in June? when I got a peace.    Need to narrow down the range of  springs in the 1st batch, IMO

What do you think on the each pressure?    The springs should be at least 50g - 78g range, yes? 

[tjweir]

55g are always good for me

[FrostyToast]

If you are going to make alps springs then I would want something a little heavier than my blue ALPS. They are a bit light
They also have to be #legitballin gold. 

[sprit]

If you are going to make alps springs then I would want something a little heavier than my blue ALPS. They are a bit light
They also have to be #legitballin gold. 

Hello!  Whats your blue alps board?  LeadingEdge? Omnikey   Can i confirm the date and infos on the PCB?  Thanks! 

[FrostyToast]

If you are going to make alps springs then I would want something a little heavier than my blue ALPS. They are a bit light
They also have to be #legitballin gold. 

Hello!  Whats your blue alps board?  LeadingEdge?   Can i confirm the date and infos on the PCB?  Thanks!

It's an interesting board.
It's a Chicony KB-5161 rebranded for Samsung. There is no birth certificate on the board telling me the number or date.

[sprit]

Oh!  Sweet one!!  Made in the Golden Age .

[sprit]

Need more answers for this IC              http://goo.gl/forms/tSoTFlM3hB

We have 15 kinds of MX custom spring so far.   Currently 11 kinds are available.   50g - - - - - - - 150g

[sprit]

Been hot today here,  Let's have some fun on ALPS!     


ALPS  Custom Springs  >     Mod note: link removed due to sprit being MIA.  Order from him at your own risk!

IC will go until enough opinions, discussions & interests are identified among us. 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.0   
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.0   
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49407.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49408.0      
 

[FrostyToast]

Filled out! I'll take one of each ALPS  set.
Will there be gold springs in ALPS?

[SL89]

Not trying to hijack this, but will you continue to offer heavier weighted springs for both Cherry MX and ALPS. I am in need of an upgrade at some point and higher resistance springs would make ALPS more doable for me.

[sprit]

Filled out! I'll take one of each ALPS  set.
Will there be gold springs in ALPS?

Wanna try anything to get better feels, may plate with Maple ?   I love dat syrups.     

[FrostyToast]

Filled out! I'll take one of each ALPS  set.
Will there be gold springs in ALPS?

Wanna try anything to get better feels, may plate with Maple ?   I love dat syrups.   

That might be a little sticky...
Pink anodized aluminum springs? )
Won't give a better feeling but it will look pretty.

[sprit]

Not trying to hijack this, but will you continue to offer heavier weighted springs for both Cherry MX and ALPS. I am in need of an upgrade at some point and higher resistance springs would make ALPS more doable for me.

Hi!  Nice to see You! been long time 
heavier as 78g, 85g, 100g, and more, Yes!!         I am quite sick of light- medium ALPS stock springs Too     

[SL89]

Not trying to hijack this, but will you continue to offer heavier weighted springs for both Cherry MX and ALPS. I am in need of an upgrade at some point and higher resistance springs would make ALPS more doable for me.

Hi!  Nice to see You! been long time 
heavier as 78g, 85g, 100g, and more, Yes!!   

I know its been ages lol and Excellent to hear, this really opens up some new things for me. Thanks Sprit.

[sprit]

Pink anodized aluminum springs? )
Won't give a better feeling but it will look pretty.

Sure!  Wanna do too!      and some Blue springs?         No reason Not to do that,  we lube the tiny small springs with super-expensive Krytox, don't we??

[FrostyToast]

Pink anodized aluminum springs? )
Won't give a better feeling but it will look pretty.

Sure!  Wanna do too!      and some Blue springs?   

Yes! We need colourful springs in our lives!

[jdcarpe]

65g gold springs fo lyfe.

Filled form for some Alps love.

[sprit]

Hi! JD! 
It's hot day, isn't it?   

[FrostyToast]

It's hot day, isn't it?   

Not for me... I wish it was here.
My house doesn't have heating.

[jdcarpe]

Hi! JD! 
It's hot day, isn't it?   

hi sprit!!

Low 80s isn't hot, you joker. We've already had 90s this year here.

[sprit]

Hi! JD! 
It's hot day, isn't it?   

hi sprit!!

Low 80s isn't hot, you joker. We've already had 90s this year here.

It was 80F around midnite last nite.   Already 90s there?   

[cooldiscretion]

Just filled out an ic for some alps springs. I didn't see any gold option though. Will they all be gold if made?

[nuclearsandwich]

Been hot today here,  Let's have some fun on ALPS!     


ALPS  Custom Springs  >   Mod note: order link removed due to sprit being MIA.  Order from him at your own risk!

IC will go until enough opinions, discussions & interests are identified among us. 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.0   
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.0   
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49407.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49408.0      
 

With Alps style switches I think the leaf plays a much larger role in the switch feel. That being said, I swapped springs in some Tai Hao clones into Matias clicky switches and they felt a bit more like complicated blue alps. Lighter but still not as smooth.

[sprit]

Nuclearsandwich, You are right!  Totally agree.   The Alps springs need to consider each 2nd leaf spring's pressure too  (avg. 10-15g)

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.msg1725253#msg1725253


Alps switches  :  A limited personal opinion

*  The sliders are basically same shape, regardless of its material composition n smoothness variety, IMO.
*  The center coil springs are definitely different in each switch type. 
*  the 1st contact leaf springs look similar, but differ in angles, shapes, etc
*  2nd leaf springs have obviously different angles, thickness, shapes in detail with each type of ALPS 
*  You may get very similar feels with original leaf & coil springs, but limited feels w modded leaf springs.
*  There were Alps electronic parts OEM factories in Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, etc in '80-90's. 
*  Reminds me a dozen of Cherry MX clone switch Factories in China at this moment.
*  Need to discuss n share infos among GH members.   
 
Clicky  -  Blue, White clicky
Linear  -  Tee stem (as in Apple 0100, 0110, 0110a), Brown, Green linear
Tactile  -  Salmon(Pinky), Orange, White, White w rubber feet, Cream, Cream w rubber feet, Black Tactiles
 
Mod to Linears  -  take 2nd leaf springs off  :  blue linears,  salmon linears,  orange linears,  cream linears, white linears,  black linears  etc
Mod to Tactiles  -  Blue Tactiles w Orange(salmon)2nd leaf springs,  Green Tactiles w white leaf springs,  Black Tactiles w Salmon leaf springs  etc
Mod to Clickys  -   Vice versa   As far as i experimented     

[nuclearsandwich]

My personal favorite classic Alps switch feels were all the "complicated"

linear green Alps
tactile orange Alps
clicky blue Alps

Matias switches are nice, but their tactility is a bit "crunchier" to me than the complicated switches. Although that could just be a necessary degree of break in.

Either way, I'm down for science and put myself down for a little of everything.

[CommonCurt]

Would definitely get some custom ALPS springs (60g, 62g, 65g).

[sprit]

References 

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series    :  The List of Alps complicated Switches
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Blue
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Orange
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Salmon
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Cream
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Cream_Damped   -  I love this to linear mod, easy to get, plus extra damper parts
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Black                    -  I love Black linear mod, easy to get, wonderful results with Krytox 103-104
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCC_Tall_Cream           -  Personally i am interested in custom springs for this too.
            

[sprit]

Just filled out an ic for some alps springs. I didn't see any gold option though. Will they all be gold if made?

Hello!   how's going? 
Both Standard and Gold plated versions   

[jacobolus]

If there are Alps custom springs:

(1) They should be in 2 (or 3) different lengths. [Actually the same goes for custom MX springs; it’s not clear why no one has bothered to do this in MX-land.]
(2) Each length should have maybe 3–4 different stiffness choices.
(3) They should be carefully designed so the diameter of the springs works with Omron, SMK, KPT, and various Alps clone switches. (They’re all quite close in dimensions, and properly chosen springs should work for all of them.)

Having 6–10 weights of springs all of the same length is a huge waste of potential.

Grams-force at bottom-out (or whatever metric it is Koreans use for their springs) is a very confusing and not very useful way to specify springs IMO. They should be specified in terms of spring constant (grams-force or centinewtons per millimeter maybe?) and free spring length.

Then it’s easy to compare that to all sorts of existing springs, assuming we can get a good measurement jig set up, and it’s easy to compute what the initial and bottom-out force will be for the spring, by comparing the free length to the available space inside the switch for various switches when the switch is unpressed / at actuation point / bottomed out. It’s fairly straightforward to measure and compute the amount of available space inside of switches, to give people useful guidance about what the force will be for any particular spring inside any particular switch.

I have copies of nearly every type of complicated Alps switch (green, blue, cream, brown, gray, amber, orange, cream, salmon, green, cream, cream, white, white, black, yellow, etc.), as well as a whole bunch of clones and other spring-compatible switches. HaaTa’s improved force gauge projects are still in the works, but at some point I’m hoping to measure all the springs I can, and try to give some useful comparative information about exactly what the dimensions and parameters are for each type of spring.

[sprit]

Thanks! Jacobolus for the insights and infos!   

The Design should have own philosophy and taste.  If not, it may called a dead copy.

(1) Been working on this, both on MX and coming Alps.  My MX springs are differ in length in each weight.
(2) Right!  To maximize the Joy of Customizing!  The standard and plated versions differ in stiffness and overall feelings.
(3) The spring constants are designed and measured.  Any conventional bad doings should go.  Bottom out force can be useful simply to estimate the max pressures.
(4) We need to share infos, opinions.  The first Alps I got was apple 0110, my dad's present in 1985, still with me.   I got 4-7 sample bags of each Alps switch Type from different board, different conditions.
(5) We need also to listen to each other's Taste for typing.   
 

[DanielT]

Filled the form, I'm a total ALPS noob but I want the same feel I have with 55g MX Springs 
You know how much I enjoy linear switches 

[sprit]

A Groupbuy for the Simplified Alps switches From Taiwan or China may open in June, after enough discussion and mind sharing. 
It may include Linear, Tactile, Clicky.

Somebody may organize the GB, We might be need a member ship direct from there locally.

[jacobolus]

Filled the form, I'm a total ALPS noob but I want the same feel I have with 55g MX Springs 
You know how much I enjoy linear switches 

You should try some stock Matias linear switches.

[sprit]

Some Taiwanese simplified Alps switches are available at $0.15 /pc  MOQ =10,000pcs,  with clear case.   I will take some pics 

[sprit]

Taiwanese or Chinese Alps :   Gray Tactile  &  White Clicky

   

[jacobolus]

So is this one of Matias’s suppliers trying to do extra business on the side, or...?

[sprit]

It's a  Alps simplified switch design originated from Alps Japan itself in 1980's. 

The demands for Chinese domestic keyboard market - schools, banks, POS, government are huge.  We know there are lots of mechanical clone switch makers.
I am not sure Matias has exclusive rights on all the clear casing Alps simplified switches.
The Clear Alps samples above got years ago from an electronics company (established in 2007) near Hongkong.

pics :  Guangdong Alps  vs  Matias Alps 

[sprit]

ALPS  Switches : Custom Springs  [IC] >    Mod note: link removed due to sprit being MIA.  Order from him at your own risk!

Interest Check is ON,
MX 55g, 85g custom springs IC done!   Thanks for the answer!   

[sprit]

ALPS  Projects  currently   :

Alps  PCB     [GB]     https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.0

Alps  Plate    [GB]     https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.0

Alps  Caps    [GB]     https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70817.0 

Alps  Springs [IC]     https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0   

Alps  Switches  [GB]    https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.msg1746805#msg1746805

[sprit]

Matias Alps switches will be available   $15- $18/100pcs  for the coming GB.

Thanks Matias for Your Favour !   

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.msg1746805#msg1746805 

[Touch_It]

Oh damn.  Knew I should have waited to buy some switches

[sprit]

Alps GB Currently   

-  Alps PCB  GB  R2  started        https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.0
-  Alps Plate  GB  R1 on going     https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.0
-  Alps Caps  GB  on going          https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70817.0
-  Alps Switches will happen        https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.msg1746805#msg1746805   

[sprit]

Chinese Alps & Cherry sources  : (I don't have confidence on their quality, Never tested for long term)
 
-   Gaote (Scott)   :    http://en.cngaote.com/products_list/&pmcId=b5f50871-3881-48f9-84f7-d6d1e7ce5ab5.html
-   Yang Jie            :    http://www.dgyangjie.cn/page/offerlist_5320157.htm?spm=a2615.2177701.0.0.W5CRWn&sortType=showcase   

Both located in Guangdong (Canton) China,  Next city to Hongkong, called Dongguan (East county)
Prices are  $12-14/100pcs  >  Then + shipping + Tax = ?? 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71357.msg1744588#msg1744588

 
Cherry Compatible sources  : 
-   Gateron               http://www.gateron.com         http://detail.1688.com/offer/38875496181.html?spm=a2615.2177701.5683209.6.kZ64yQ
-   Kaihua (Kailh)     http://www.kailh.com/gb/Newsdetail.asp?Newsid=37 
-   Greetech             http://www.greetech.com/en/products.asp?enBigClassName=GT02%20Keyswitch 

[zombimuncha]

I'm curious about how well a higher-spring-rate spring would work in an Alps switch. Similar to the spring in MX Clears, where the initial resistance is quite light, then it ramps up considerably by the time you pass the actuation point. I'm thinking this could maybe compensate for the drop-off in resistance after you pass the tactile/click leaf, and potentially make an Alps switch where you could not-bottom-out.

[sprit]

I'm curious about how well a higher-spring-rate spring would work in an Alps switch. Similar to the spring in MX Clears, where the initial resistance is quite light, then it ramps up considerably by the time you pass the actuation point. I'm thinking this could maybe compensate for the drop-off in resistance after you pass the tactile/click leaf, and potentially make an Alps switch where you could not-bottom-out.

Great Insight!      
 
Yes! that will be a problem with the Alps springs over 85g ~ (actuation over 65g~), need more sample Tests.
Alps bottoming-out are one of my favorite too.   

[zombimuncha]

Can somebody tell me the height of the spring chamber inside an Alps switch? To put it another way, how long would a spring need to be so that it would touch the switch bottom and the slider without being compressed while the switch was in the "up" position?

Is this height consistent between the various Alps and Alps-compatible switches?

Is there any advantage to having a spring longer than this height. My thinking here is that if the spring is longer than the chamber, such that it always at least a little bit compressed, then the only thing that matters is the spring-constant (cN per mm). From that you can work out the actuation and bottom out forces.

What about with shorter springs - what's the advantage? I'm guessing if the very top part of the key travel had resistance only from the leaf spring you would get another tactile event when the slider hits the top of the spring. Could be awesome, could be confusing. Anything else?

In terms of measuring and describing springs, for any type of switch, I think we definitely need at least two numbers. Actuation force, bottom-out force, spring constant - pick any two out of these three and you can work out the other easily. Spring length could also be an optional (?) third metric - optional if the spring is tall enough to already be somewhat compressed inside the switch while "up", but required if the spring is shorter.

I guess if you know the internal height of the switch you could work out the actuation and bottom-out forces just from the spring-constant and free-length. But it seems to me that referring to them by both actuation and bottom-out forces would be easiest for people to understand how they're going to feel inside a switch.

[bcredbottle]

How/when do I sign up for this? I want some heavier springs for my Matias Click switches