Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 628346 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2250 on: Sat, 04 January 2020, 20:19:40 »
Great h, glad everything is working now!

Below is my full xwhatsit firmware-related instructions which will be part of the upcoming Model F manual:

To install the firmware using Windows (I don't know about the other OS installation procedures), after assembly you would install atmel flip, plug in the USB on the controller and plug it into the computer, then go to device manager, right click the "Atmel" device, click have disk, go to the Atmel Flip installation folder, allow searching subfolders, and install the driver, then load atmel Flip 3.4.7, click the chip icon "select a target device" and pick atmega32U2, click OK, then click the USB icon, click USB, click Open, then click File, Load HEX file and select Joc's firmware hex file (alternative debounce threshold 6), then click run. After it says verified/pass then unplug the cable, wait 10 seconds, plug it back in, wait another 10 seconds, then open xwhatsit's newest version of the GUI (0.9.0?) and if it opens then you were successful!

If you have never installed atmel firmware before on your current computer installation, you need to open the xwhatsit software utility, click tools - enter GUI bootloader, click Yes, and then do the above Control Panel - Devices and Printers for the Unknown device.


unplug and plug in again if not detected first time after flashing


if can't install, can also try shorting PROG on the xwhatsit controller and keeping it shorted, then connecting it to USB, wait 1-2 seconds MAXIMUM, then release prog.  will cause error device descriptor failed if you hold it too long

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2251 on: Sun, 05 January 2020, 22:41:49 »
5 more keyboards are shipping tomorrow, bringing the total to 30 so far. 

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2252 on: Sun, 05 January 2020, 22:54:43 »
Any news to report on the dye sublimation ongoings?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2253 on: Mon, 06 January 2020, 21:40:26 »
Sorry, nothing yet.

There was some discussion on the throughput of order fulfillment on DT that I thought I'd share:  if I had a bunch of people helping me after the key sublimation process is all set things could go much faster.  There is a ~30 step quality control/order fulfillment process.  Each keyboard may end up taking 15-20 minutes down the line for those steps.  More people can of course increase throughput.  I wouldn't extrapolate the current progress for the reasons I posted a few weeks or so ago (technical/administrative issues, time to identify each keyboard (was not done in the best manner by the factory but they are labeling each box for the second shipment of the early bird round), etc.

I was recently discussing part of the above quality control process along with possible caveats to reviewing any Model F keyboard and thought I'd share my notes:

I'd recommend emphasizing that some users may require changing settings on the xwhatsit controller or there will be problems like keys not registering or key "spamming" - plus I'd note that problems like non-clicking keys and a sometimes bad buzzing key sound upon actuation are easily fixable by the user, just like on the originals (I'll be making videos at some point to show how to fix the various issues with Model F keyboards in general).  Nearly all of the dozens of the original F's I've restored over the past 5 years (XT, AT, F104 Unsaver, F107, F122) have had some key issues like buzzing or requiring to re-seat the keys but those who are new to the world of Model F may not realize that. 

Maybe I'm more sensitive to the correct Model F sound but I've had to replace or reseat a few springs on each keyboard so far.  Others may be even more sensitive and may require some adjustment by the end user (I've asked others to listen in a silent room and they could not reliably tell the difference between good and not as good). 

I believe that the nice space bar thud sound (and minimizing rattle) is highly contingent on the proper placement of the metal tabs - with the placement as a constant, bending the stabilizer wire slightly away from the metal tab ends results in a more rattly space bar with a lighter actuation force that some people prefer (more like many original F122's), while pushing too much towards the metal tab ends can slightly increase actuation force for the space bar.  Optimally the back of the metal tab should touch the space bar stabilizer wire or have a slight amount of space between wire and back of tab.  With the current finished production round one can bend the space bar wire to get a better sound.  The factory expects to stamp the holes for the metal tabs with a CNC type machine for improved accuracy with the final round towards the end of this year.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2254 on: Mon, 06 January 2020, 23:11:22 »
Another newly photographed variation that was mailed out:

233152-0

Offline Bookman3

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2255 on: Mon, 06 January 2020, 23:32:01 »
@zacheadams @ellipse Thanks for rehashing the order number issue for me. Made it most of the way, but not all of the way through the thread.

Very excited for this board! Thanks @ellipse and everyone else involved for your hard work


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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2256 on: Tue, 07 January 2020, 21:29:23 »
17 packages are shipping!  All the key testing and replacement was done over the weekend and it still took about 5-6 hours of work today, not counting the key testing - about 15-20 minutes per keyboard. 

As always, tracking numbers were emailed to those whose orders are shipping.

Maybe on a few Saturdays once I have a backlog of sublimated key sets a bunch of orders can go out if a few people can help.

From today's group:

233202-0
233204-1
233206-2
233208-3
233210-4
233212-5

233216-7

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2257 on: Tue, 07 January 2020, 22:22:15 »
I think that keyless F77 might belong to fanpeople judging by the shipping notification that I have received.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2258 on: Wed, 08 January 2020, 14:27:14 »
Is there anything that people who do not live in your area can do? The world needs more Model Fs.

I have little doubt that these things would go into full-scale production if enough people had the chance to try them.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2259 on: Thu, 09 January 2020, 15:27:39 »
Yes Maledicted - I actually posted on the project blog over the summer on how anyone can help the project. 

The complexity of the Model F design requires a person to test each key one by one as IBM employees did back in the day (I read an article last year on this subject - it was posted over on the Deskthority thread a while back) and they used a microphone and headphones to verify the proper click of each key.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/in-one-minute-how-can-you-help-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards-project/

Copied below:
In one minute, how can you help the Brand New Model F Keyboards project?

I could definitely use some help from anyone reading the blog.  Even if you have just one minute!

What I need help most with is getting the word out to the various people who may be interested – even if you have not yet joined the project.  My goal is to be able to afford to make as many new Model F keyboards as possible.

Most people don’t know about buckling spring keyboards and many of those who do only discovered the project by chance / by a Google search!

I am sure that many of you know one or more people who might want to learn about the project but are not active in the keyboard forums and may not know about buckling spring.  It would be a great help if everyone reading this could let 1-3 or more people, or other online communities/social media know about the project.  Chyrosran22’s excellent YouTube review of the Model F would be a great link to send someone or post: 

After hearing from many of you about what drew you to the Model F project, I believe that you might have the best results letting these people know about the project:

1.  The programmer/writer/blogger.  Someone who uses their keyboard a lot for typing and wants a keyboard that could last a lifetime.
2.  The computer/tech/mechanical keyboard enthusiast who wants the best featured keyboard, or someone in the market for a new dependable keyboard who wants the best one.  Many users who have tried the other clicky switches end up with the Model F as their end game keyboard.
3.  The Model F/M user looking to upgrade/looking for a brand new production buckling spring keyboard/those who remember the using an IBM keyboard at school/home/work.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 January 2020, 15:32:22 by Ellipse »

Offline iamacicada

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2260 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 07:45:27 »


Based on the current variations shipped in the first shipment last year, black keys will no longer be able to ship early (most of them are in the second batch arriving in a couple months). There are many pearl/pebble unprinted sets for most variations in the first shipment (happy to switch you to the standard colors key set if needed).


I'm very excited that I got a shipping notification, however I'm a bit confused since I have black keys. Maybe I'm one the last black keys orders that ship early?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2261 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 08:12:40 »
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against. I think this is the first time in my life I half wish I lived in New York. I think the project would be a lot more popular than it is if economies of scale could kick in and the price could come down, or there were a budget option in something heretical, like a plastic case and cheap caps. I hear/read a lot of, "I would love one of those, but ...".

I show everyone who may even remotely be interested in mechanical keyboards my Fs, and let them try their switches. That in and of itself is half of the battle though. Most people just don't care about mechanical keyboards, and if they do, they just want some linear gaming switch. Kids do seem more receptive though. I work in a school and show our "Tech Force" kids my old boards from time to time. Even amongst them, they're not always a smash hit.

Of the ones that do try the boards, and do end up cultivating an interest in mechanical switches, it does mostly seem to come down to preference between capacitive buckling spring and blue alps though, at least.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2262 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 14:11:27 »
An update on firmware configuration:
Setting the voltage threshold a few numbers too high results in ghosting or some keys not recognized when pressed. I recommend voltage threshold 122 for all F77's and between 122 and 126 for all F62's. Always click store to EEPROM after adjusting; the auto voltage doesn't work too well for me. For the F62's, start with 126 and if a key in the rightmost or leftmost column of physical keys flickers in the xwhatsit GUI (as opposed to being solid) when a leftmost or rightmost key is pressed down fully, lower the threshold from 126 to 124. If there are still issues, lower to 122. The column skips (columns 9-15 skipped) must be stored to the EEPROM before adjusting the voltage threshold.

Regarding what can ship first:
iamaciada - only certain configurations with black unprinted keys are in the first shipment and not all of these particular units are in the first shipment, so not all unprinted keyboards can ship beforehand. 

In the first shipment most of the ones with installed keys are F62 classic Black case with split right shift and split backspace and black keys, F62 (any color) with the same configuration but pearl/pebble blank keys, and F77's with split right shift and split backspace with pearl/pebble blank keys.  I still have some left of these configurations that can ship but not many. 

Offline ArchDill

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2263 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 19:46:23 »
Typing sounds


Wow, that sounds AMAZING!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2264 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:52:02 »
Forum members over on Deskthority have recently posted some of their newly arrived Model F keyboards!  It is great to know that these are out in the world and will be put to good use.

I have just created and posted a quick video of how to open up a Model F keyboard (considered a last resort troubleshooting step).  I posted the following in the video description:  "Warning!  Do not open up your keyboard unless all other troubleshooting steps have been tried.  In nearly all cases, an issue can be resolved in much easier ways (removing and re-seating a key, adjusting the spring, replacing a spring) and you do not need to open up the keyboard."

The video is to help someone's new Model F space bar key which seems not to be registering the click but it is making the click sound.  The flipper with spring moves freely inside the barrel.


Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2265 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:58:16 »
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against. I think this is the first time in my life I half wish I lived in New York. I think the project would be a lot more popular than it is if economies of scale could kick in and the price could come down, or there were a budget option in something heretical, like a plastic case and cheap caps. I hear/read a lot of, "I would love one of those, but ...".

I show everyone who may even remotely be interested in mechanical keyboards my Fs, and let them try their switches. That in and of itself is half of the battle though. Most people just don't care about mechanical keyboards, and if they do, they just want some linear gaming switch. Kids do seem more receptive though. I work in a school and show our "Tech Force" kids my old boards from time to time. Even amongst them, they're not always a smash hit.

Of the ones that do try the boards, and do end up cultivating an interest in mechanical switches, it does mostly seem to come down to preference between capacitive buckling spring and blue alps though, at least.
I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2266 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 23:06:48 »
I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure that Ellipse himself has said in the past that there's no way that we would reach a situation where that kicks in with such small-scale production. IBM is the typical greedy corporation, not that I'm necessarily opposed to such a thing. Everything they did back then was watched and emulated, people bought whatever they sold because they were the ones selling it. They could set prices that made no sense at all and still get sales. Weren't the Model Fs made in the U.S. as well? None of that necessarily makes new manufacture by an enthusiast/small businessman, with a factory in China, all that comparable.

Offline eternalmetal

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2267 on: Sun, 12 January 2020, 13:00:28 »
Well, I got mine in the mail last night!  I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well.  I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters.  I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?).  Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated.  Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others.  Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic.  I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp.  Easily my new favorite keyboard.

edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself?  Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 January 2020, 15:24:29 by eternalmetal »

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2268 on: Sun, 12 January 2020, 20:28:58 »
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against.

Would the switch sound have remained constant over time with the original model Fs, assuming they were well maintained?

I have on old Bigfoot (with the weird connector so I don’t know if it works) and some keys sound quite different to others which I assumed was due to degradation of internal components.  It will be interesting to compare to a new model F when mine arrives.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2269 on: Sun, 12 January 2020, 22:35:22 »
Well, I got mine in the mail last night!  I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well.  I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters.  I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?).  Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated.  Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others.  Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic.  I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp.  Easily my new favorite keyboard.

edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself?  Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!

I took my F XT apart last night because Hasu has me testing some of his firmware and I thought the board might have a grounding issue. Just taking the plate assembly out of the case and putting it back in screwed up some of the keys. If any keys don't feel/sound like the others, take them off, flip the board veritcally, and reseat them that way. I did notice that even if that didn't initially fix the problem, sometimes they would finish sorting themselves out after a few keypresses. Ellipse has a video that demonstrates their proper installation on his Youtube channel for the new Model Fs.

Would the switch sound have remained constant over time with the original model Fs, assuming they were well maintained?

I have on old Bigfoot (with the weird connector so I don’t know if it works) and some keys sound quite different to others which I assumed was due to degradation of internal components.  It will be interesting to compare to a new model F when mine arrives.

I don't know that I'm entirely qualified to answer that. My F AT appears nearly unused, although I haven't stripped it apart completely. Both my F AT and XT seem to all have consistent sounds and feels between keys, besides maybe in vastly different parts of the plate where different harmonics might come into play. This is, of course, once I have verified that every single key functions normally with a keyboard tester. Regardless, if not, I imagine it would not be difficult to restore them to be so. I just meant that I have them to use as reference/control, not necessarily in the state in which they currently are.

I think there was a recent well-illustrated tutorial on converting those boards posted on this forum.


Offline eternalmetal

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2270 on: Mon, 13 January 2020, 07:52:16 »
Well, I got mine in the mail last night!  I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well.  I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters.  I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?).  Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated.  Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others.  Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic.  I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp.  Easily my new favorite keyboard.

edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself?  Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!

I took my F XT apart last night because Hasu has me testing some of his firmware and I thought the board might have a grounding issue. Just taking the plate assembly out of the case and putting it back in screwed up some of the keys. If any keys don't feel/sound like the others, take them off, flip the board veritcally, and reseat them that way. I did notice that even if that didn't initially fix the problem, sometimes they would finish sorting themselves out after a few keypresses. Ellipse has a video that demonstrates their proper installation on his Youtube channel for the new Model Fs.


Yea, I saw that video AFTER I changed all the keys, apparently doing it wrong.  Fortunately I don't seem to be having any issues, other than the aforementioned 'F' key that came shipped with the spring off the peg.  And it has since worked itself out, as ive been typing on it for about a day without any issue.  Ill keep it in mind to change the keys correctly next time, lol

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2271 on: Mon, 13 January 2020, 19:51:37 »
Some more new variations from last week's batch:

233618-0
233620-1
233622-2
233624-3
233626-4
233628-5

Offline ImAWildDeer

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2272 on: Mon, 13 January 2020, 20:24:43 »
Mine arrived early last week and I honestly love it. It's been a long wait, and my passion for mechanical keyboards calmed down a bit during that time, but man this thing is sick. This is my first time using buckling springs and the tactile feel and weight is just perfect. I really enjoyed using my HHKB and I'm excited to have another keyboard in a similar format (for some reason I feel like the function key is slightly lower and out of the way compared to the HHKB, but when I look at them side by side they are nearly identical, so my muscle memory must just be wonky). Thanks for all of your hard work on this, Ellipse!




There are a couple more pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/pdOFxgS
HHKB | Ergodox Infinity | OG Ergodox | Atreus | Planck | WASD V2  | Whitefox | TX1800 | F62

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2273 on: Mon, 13 January 2020, 20:29:30 »
Mine arrived early last week and I honestly love it. It's been a long wait, and my passion for mechanical keyboards calmed down a bit during that time, but man this thing is sick. This is my first time using buckling springs and the tactile feel and weight is just perfect. I really enjoyed using my HHKB and I'm excited to have another keyboard in a similar format (for some reason I feel like the function key is slightly lower and out of the way compared to the HHKB, but when I look at them side by side they are nearly identical, so my muscle memory must just be wonky). Thanks for all of your hard work on this, Ellipse!

Beautiful board you've got there. That paint texture screams 80s.

Offline 0100010

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2274 on: Tue, 14 January 2020, 19:20:52 »
My F62 came in the other day as well.  Placed Unicomp caps, ensuring proper spring seating for each, works / types / sounds exactly as expected, just like my F107, but with new springs.  No complaints, but I will probably replace the USB C cable with one with a 90 degree connector.

  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2275 on: Tue, 14 January 2020, 20:09:28 »
Great 0100010, glad your board arrived safely!  When replacing a cable, please be sure to leave a few inches extra slack inside the keyboard before the strain relief P clip just in case someone trips on the cord (this happened a while back and someone's xwhatsit USB connector was ripped right off the controller). 

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2276 on: Tue, 14 January 2020, 20:12:41 »
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you ***** I want to taste the buckling goodness, it has been a long time since I last felt you under my finger tips.

*makes repetitive snake tongue movement and 'liddle' sound

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2277 on: Tue, 14 January 2020, 21:44:18 »
Part of me, of course, would want to make the point at which the cable meets the case (almost) just as invincible as the case, drilling the hole wider and mounting a female aviator socket, as I have done with two different keyboards now. I also have some brand new PS/2 TG3 BL82s that are calling for me to mount 5 pin din sockets right to as well. It would be cool to just be able to use nice high quality detachable Hosa MIDI cables with PS/2 or AT keyboards.

Offline Vizir

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2278 on: Tue, 14 January 2020, 23:34:44 »
*makes repetitive snake tongue movement and 'liddle' sound
I'm amused visualizing this action. Maybe it's a cultural thing...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 January 2020, 23:39:41 by Vizir »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2279 on: Thu, 16 January 2020, 16:28:56 »
I have posted a blog update summarizing the current status here, including the dye sub, as well as a summary of Model F adjustment/troubleshooting steps.  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

I had to replace some more of the components of the dye sub setup and this week I've been testing different settings to optimize the results.  The current results are still not as good as my prior tests from last year.

Some notes on things pointed out over on DT from those who have received their new Model F keyboards:
The powdercoating on the cases is not the same as modern-day powdercoating - it is 1980s style powdercoating, warts and all.  It took months to get the powdercoating to resemble the 1980s blotchy style.  The original cases will not have a perfect, blemish-free finish.  The prototypes back in 2015 were finished in a tough, modern powdercoating but it did not look like the original finish, so I decided back then to reject it and aim for as close as possible to the original, less durable finish.  Like the originals, the paint is a thin, textured, matte finish that does chip and flake.

If you prefer a tougher coat maybe some kind of clear coat or re-painting could be done.  Please do post the results if anyone does this.

Regarding the space bar - there is an art to getting it to sound good - I am slowly getting better as more keyboards are QC'd (yours was one of the earliest).  Regarding squeaking and rattling, the solution is to remove and re-seat, or maybe replace the spring with another one and slightly adjust the bend of the space bar so that it is closer to the back of the metal space bar tabs.  I hope to make a video on the specifics of space bar modding for those who are particular about the sound (as I am).  Since your keyboard, I have gotten a little better at detecting and fixing space bar issues.

The 1 cm circled line (see recently posted photos on DT) is present on all the cases; it has something to do with the mold.  I pointed this out to them a few years ago.  The factory was able to minimize it but not remove it entirely.

Confirmed that for those not ordering installed keys, the voltage threshold is set too high so as not to activate keys if you accidentally plug in the keyboard before installing all keys (the factory default layouts are pre-loaded for all keyboards).  It's easy to adjust in the xwhatsit GUI.

Offline Khers

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2280 on: Fri, 17 January 2020, 00:35:10 »
The photo Ellipse mentions in 6th paragraph of the post above is this one:


Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2281 on: Fri, 17 January 2020, 20:18:03 »
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****

Australian customs? Good luck. For something like this I’m worried they’ll hold up shipment due to some reason that would require additional import clearance charges after the GST changes last year.


Offline sundin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2283 on: Sat, 18 January 2020, 04:34:27 »

anyway i'm still happy, thank you ellipse for your work!
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 January 2020, 04:39:11 by sundin »

Offline ImAWildDeer

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2284 on: Mon, 20 January 2020, 08:44:47 »
Late last week I started having an issue with my F62 where I'd get lots of key spam for characters all across the board. As an example, I could hit "J" and end up getting "J?/342kjlkasdf" (not a real example, but very similar). I've tried fiddling with the voltage threshold a bit, but haven't had any luck. Has anyone else experienced this or have any recommendations on things to try?
HHKB | Ergodox Infinity | OG Ergodox | Atreus | Planck | WASD V2  | Whitefox | TX1800 | F62

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2285 on: Mon, 20 January 2020, 09:16:33 »
Yes, please follow the instructions in my recent blog post for re-flashing the debounce 6 firmware, setting threshold and column skips as specified, and loading the layout file. 

Offline Damage

  • Posts: 78
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2286 on: Mon, 20 January 2020, 10:45:53 »
Notch is, uh, getting to know his Model F, looks like:

https://twitter.com/notch/status/1219298173186904072

Offline darkcruix

  • Posts: 61
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2287 on: Mon, 20 January 2020, 11:30:02 »
Wonderful - the more of those boards are out I hope the more people are becoming fans ...

Offline fanpeople

  • Posts: 959
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2288 on: Mon, 20 January 2020, 21:38:33 »
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****

Australian customs? Good luck. For something like this I’m worried they’ll hold up shipment due to some reason that would require additional import clearance charges after the GST changes last year.

This was a worry I had also, but it appears to have cleared customs. Well that is what the tracking indicates. We will see.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2289 on: Wed, 22 January 2020, 15:37:12 »
The latest batch of new variation keyboards:

Here's an imgur album of all the variations so far - it will be updated with new variations as they are photographed:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Both blue variants (plus the classic case limited editions True Red and Silver Gray) are still available to order but I only have a few left.

234075-0
234077-1
234079-2
234081-3
234083-4
234085-5

Offline KetchyKech

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2290 on: Wed, 22 January 2020, 19:04:05 »
just received my true red! it types and feel like a dream!!! thank you for all your hard work and dedication to this project, finally experiencing your vision come to life :)

I'll be messaging you shortly about purchasing an extra ultra-compact case!

∴∵∴◇Time TKL--VE.A--F&T 1916--Cajal--Octagon v2◇∴∵∴

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2291 on: Wed, 22 January 2020, 19:55:30 »
Glad your keyboard arrived KetchyKech!  And thank you for the kind words.

Offline Lormania

  • Posts: 227
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2292 on: Thu, 23 January 2020, 19:19:35 »
F62 Number 20 signing in:


Loving it!
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 January 2020, 19:21:17 by Lormania »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2293 on: Thu, 23 January 2020, 20:54:20 »
Nice keycap customization Lormania!    Thanks for posting your keyboard layout setup.

Offline Sifo

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2294 on: Thu, 23 January 2020, 22:30:51 »
The latest batch of new variation keyboards:

Here's an imgur album of all the variations so far - it will be updated with new variations as they are photographed:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Both blue variants (plus the classic case limited editions True Red and Silver Gray) are still available to order but I only have a few left.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

omfg blue
(Forever) Illustrious.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2295 on: Sat, 25 January 2020, 23:20:36 »
We passed the 100 keyboard mark!

107 keyboards will have shipped, as of this Monday. 

Below are some more photos of unique variations.  The JIS set below is Unicomp's set - this keyboard shows off the medium space bar option not available as a factory option (I don't have any pearl shorter space bars but included a full size pearl space bar for this keyboard just in case).  The final two photos are an F77 keyboard customized by a customer who permitted me to post them.

I have to redo one aspect of the dye sub setup after inconsistencies in the most recent round of testing (some decent, sharp results and some poor results with nearly identical settings).  I will post more updates when I have them as always but we are still a month or two away from the majority of these keyboards being ready to go out.

234295-0
234297-1
234299-2
234301-3
234303-4
234305-5
234307-6
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 January 2020, 23:23:59 by Ellipse »

Offline romevi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2296 on: Sun, 26 January 2020, 00:41:48 »
Holy cow. I think I know what I want for my graduation gift.

Offline Mr_BeastQuake

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2297 on: Sun, 26 January 2020, 01:26:24 »
Holy cow. I think I know what I want for my graduation gift.

It's what my wife (then girlfriend) bought me for mine.

Offline raymogi

  • Posts: 1415
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2298 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 07:01:06 »
My fn key seems to be causing the "spamming" problem. Whatever key I pressed along with the fn will be spammed until I press fn again or sometimes it just stops by itself.

Is this fixable? I'm on Mac OS Catalina but I also have access to Windows PC.
Please feed my addiction.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2299 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 10:00:57 »
My fn key seems to be causing the "spamming" problem. Whatever key I pressed along with the fn will be spammed until I press fn again or sometimes it just stops by itself.

Is this fixable? I'm on Mac OS Catalina but I also have access to Windows PC.

Take a look at these earlier posts:

Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.

I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.

(Attachment Link)

Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues.  Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.

The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold. 

Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.

First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link).  In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.

Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77.  Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason).  Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77.  Click store to EEPROM. 

Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/

I have one of each major OS on what I dub a trifecta machine at home, but I do not yet have a model F equipped with an xwhatsit controller, so I couldn't confirm what the OSX/MacOS-specific steps may be. It should be easy enough in Windows.