Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 644183 times)

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Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2450 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:53:59 »
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2451 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:05:04 »
Yes reavy I believe you are correct on the xwhatsit. 

Yes it would be great to get auto voltage calibration or per-key voltage settings working on QMK or xwhatsit on the current hardware.  Can anyone with an xwhatsit-controlled keyboard help with testing this?

Fully working (but still "beta" right now) QMK firmware has been developed for the xwhatsit hardware and has been working 100% in testing so far.  Voltage setting seems to be all automatic.  There is active discussion and development/testing efforts over on the DT project thread by users pandrew, tentator, and others.

There is also a cool new utility that auto sends to bootloader any xwhatsit controller regardless of xwhatsit or QMK firmware.  Big help if your voltage threshold needs adjustment and you get lots of key spamming as soon as your keyboard is plugged in. 

unofficial 0.9.1 firmware was done by DT user Joc and fixed the debounce filter.  0.9.2 was pandrew's work to fix a function layer bug. 


Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2452 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:11:18 »
Does 0.9.2 incorporate the fixes from 0.9.1, too? I assume so but want to be sure.

Offline macclack

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2453 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:19:55 »
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.

(Attachment Link)

Respect for taking that thing to work. I bet it gets some fun reactions.

Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2454 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:22:57 »
Ha ha, I have a back-up Topre Silent board here for when more people return to the office. My co-workers normally can't even tolerate an o-ring-dampened MX Clear board.

Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2455 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:33:24 »
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.

(Attachment Link)

Respect for taking that thing to work. I bet it gets some fun reactions.

I had mine at work for weeks, and I previously used an F AT off and on (at both locations). The only reason I took it home is I thought they may be shutting the air conditioning off for the summer, and it would be a shame for anything on that baby to get rusty.

People, old and young (I work in a school district) tend to get a kick out of my weird old keyboards. It starts some great conversations about technology.

I'm using an old Nan Tan board there at the moment. I have had a student complain about the Model Fs, but nobody has disliked Kailh box thick clicks, or Alps ... or Cherry MX blue ... for some reason.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2456 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:09:18 »
Does 0.9.2 incorporate the fixes from 0.9.1, too? I assume so but want to be sure.

Yes confirmed

Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2457 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:22:12 »
Also, in case anyone is interested, here's my new F62 working on my temporary home office set-up. This board is working much more reliably, and I've been using it for my day to day work for a few days now. I installed the 0.9.2 firmware and bumped the current threshold to 123, and that's it. Also, this one is connected directly to a USB 3.0 port on my laptop, unlike the F77 at the office that's connected through a Wyrd hub.

There are two funny things about this board. The first is that the left ctrl and left shift keys make contact along their top and bottom edges respectively. I shaved those edges down with a box knife razor, and now they're sliding past each other without touching.

The second thing you can see somewhat in the picture. The right-side ctrl (Fn) key and Num Lock are out of alignment with Alt and Shift. It's like they're rotated by one degree or so clockwise. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the barrels underneath or what.

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2458 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:03:04 »
reavy, as a note those are not new Model F project keys on your new keyboard.  My new keys and barrels are a match to IBM specifications and do not have the issues you describe.

I have also installed IBM Model M keys and Model F keys on these keyboards and they did not have the issues you mention.  The spacing is 100% to IBM specs.

In general the Model F / Model M design allows for rotational movement of keys, possibly unlike other mechanical keyboard key designs.  The original IBM Ctrl keys on my F122's have 1-2mm rotation, for example.

Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2459 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:05:05 »
Yes, you are correct. These are Unicomp keys on a new Model F keyboard. I'll wait and pass judgment once dye sub is complete ;)

Is it possible to manually torque the barrels in these new model Fs to change the rotation, or are they fixed to the plate at a fixed rotational angle?

Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2460 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 19:21:54 »
Yes, you are correct. These are Unicomp keys on a new Model F keyboard. I'll wait and pass judgment once dye sub is complete ;)

Is it possible to manually torque the barrels in these new model Fs to change the rotation, or are they fixed to the plate at a fixed rotational angle?

My F107, which currently has Unicomp caps on it, has some caps that aren't always exactly straight either. It seems to me that the tolerances are just a little loose? Mine wiggle around. I didn't even notice such a thing until I got the F107, which a previous owner had put the Unicomp caps on. Personally, I didn't care and thought no more about it. Now that you mention it, I compared it to my early Model M caps that I slapped on my F77, and those seem much straighter in general, and there's a lot less slop when I try to jiggle them from side to side. I have a few Unicomp caps on it as well, for media controls, and those are similarly loose to the Unicomp caps on the original F107 barrels.

Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2461 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 13:38:37 »
Loading the QMK firmware onto my F77 cleared up a ton of problems. pandrew identified a bug in the F77 configuration that caused the right arrow key to not work, and now he's cleared that up, and it's smooth sailing!

Space bar lag issues I was having before have been solved by fiddling with the spring and stabilizer bar. Improved space bar sound seems to correlate with improved space bar performance.
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 June 2020, 16:45:04 by reavy »

Offline BlissOnTap

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2462 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 16:39:06 »
I received my F77 today.

Paint job looks great and no blemishes on it that have been mentioned by others. Stunning build quality. The stock voltage threshold of 122 was too low to work right; at 124 all the key spamming went away.

The switches feel much lighter than other vintage Model F switches I have tried in my very limited experience. I think others have noted that, too. Unfortunately the Unicomp keycaps I have are not compatible. They cause binding and terrible scratchiness so bad I worry it will damage the barrels. When using vintage keycaps there are no issues and feels great. But in my experience Unicomp keycaps are not compatible and visually are different. I should have done more research on that and grabbed some vintage keycaps off ebay. Just an FYI if someone else is wondering about new Unicomp keycaps.

Amazing keyboard otherwise.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2463 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 18:58:51 »
Great reavy, thanks for the update.  Looks like QMK may become the default firmware once we have some more testing done - everyone please keep the feedback coming regarding QMK on the new Model F keyboards.

Glad your F77 arrived safely BlissOnTap! 

Everyone please do share photos of your new Model F if you don't mind!  It is great to see these keyboards set up in their new homes!

I don't think one can damage the barrels with regularly installed keys.  I've installed some Unicomp key sets on new Model F keyboards with no issues - was your Unicomp set made in the past 1-2 years?

Yes the good thing is that there are many terminal and regular ps/2 Model M keyboards from which to borrow keys.

Offline Bookman3

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2464 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 00:01:51 »
Quick question just so I know what to expect ó are we getting tracking numbers when keyboards ship?

Saw it mentioned on the website, but canít quite tell from the conversations on here

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2465 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 05:29:28 »
Are the keyboards with printed key caps going out yet? Any trouble posting to Australia?

Offline str8away

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2466 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 06:47:31 »
Quick question just so I know what to expect ó are we getting tracking numbers when keyboards ship?

Saw it mentioned on the website, but canít quite tell from the conversations on here

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah I got an email saying mine shipped with a tracking number.

Offline BlissOnTap

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2467 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 12:37:49 »
I've installed some Unicomp key sets on new Model F keyboards with no issues - was your Unicomp set made in the past 1-2 years?

They are brand new from Unicomp. The stem on the new Unicomps are different from the stems on my old IBM M/F keycaps that I have.

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Left grey keycap is a new Unicomp and right beige keycap is from an IBM board.

Also, thanks for having the space bar pre-installed. I was worried I would break the metal tabs installing one since I have never tinkered with a Model F before.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2468 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 12:48:05 »
I have now gone through noting all the early shipping requests as of now.  Still have to ship many of them.

Still time to request early shipping of your new Model F without keys (check the blog for details before making your request).  Please allow a week or two for me to reply.

Bookman - yes everyone gets a tracking number in an email when it ships.

Pete - as you may have seen reading the recent updates, printed keys are going out later this year, not yet.

Bliss - as a note my keys are a reproduction of the one piece IBM Model F design, while the other keys are based on the IBM Model M design (some one piece, some two piece keys). 

Yes I do install the space bar for all those who ordered one as part of a key set, as I want it to sound right for everyone.  I have configured so many that it's quick for me to get it right.  One can possibly damage the space bar as the little tabs can break off if the space bar is removed incorrectly.
« Last Edit: Fri, 12 June 2020, 14:10:42 by Ellipse »

Offline CapnCrunch53

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2469 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:14:20 »
Quick question, Ellipse: for the boards shipping without keys (but that have ordered printed keys), are they shipping with stabilizers installed?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2470 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:17:49 »
I ship the space bar and stabilizer inserts with each early shipping keyboard.  Space bar I will install personally, stabilizer inserts are all not installed.

Offline CapnCrunch53

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2471 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:18:53 »
Understood. Thank you!

Offline Bookman3

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2472 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 16:08:07 »
Thanks ellipse!


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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2473 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 17:31:03 »
Has anyone made an unboxing video yet for their new F62 or F77?  Have not seen one of those yet!

Also does anyone have a .l xwhatsit layout file for the UK or for something else I haven't yet shared on ModelFKeyboards.com/code that they could post?  Would like to include it in the available layout files.
« Last Edit: Fri, 12 June 2020, 17:32:35 by Ellipse »

Offline Damage

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2474 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 21:07:43 »
Just an FYI for anyone wondering. I got my F77 without keys, and I was able to cover it easily with keys from my Unicomp Model M without a single issue. I wonít have to special order anything to fill it out while waiting for the dye-subbed keys from Ellipse.

A few pictures and more of my impressions of the board right here, including a typing sound test, for anyone interested: https://twitter.com/scottwasson/status/1270845545234542594?s=21

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2475 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 22:27:48 »
Thanks Damage for sharing your review and photos!  I liked the sound test video on your desk. 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2476 on: Sun, 14 June 2020, 23:11:35 »
DT user Twst has posted a great video testing out a newly installed solenoid in a Brand New F77!


Offline funkmon

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2477 on: Mon, 15 June 2020, 18:23:16 »
Yeah he installed it with a bit of plywood to smack into instead of the case, and the sound is amazing!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2478 on: Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:06:57 »
An important note on USB hubs from one new Model F user:

"I spent a couple of hours going nuts until I finally figured it out.
I have a F77 that arrived a few days ago. I put some keys on it and gave it a spin. Awful, simply awful.
Key presses would register or not register. Random text would appear while typing. Unusable.

Turns out I was using a 4 port non-powered Anker USB hub. Works fine for my model Mís, and the rest of my keyboards BUT not the F77.

I then plugged the F77 into a powered USB hub and tada, all is good.

Hope this helps others."

Offline Bookman3

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2479 on: Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:22:32 »
Iíve had similar issues with custom keyboards (think6.5) using the USB ports on my monitors. It was definitely very confusing and frustrating. 

Iíve learned since this is fairly common for custom mkís and always recommended to use builtin ports


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Offline bigpook

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2480 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 16:32:46 »
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Been awhile since I have been here but got the F77 a few days ago. Put on some loaner caps and here we are. If you like buckling spring keyboards, you will love this one.
Cheers!
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2481 on: Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:58:18 »
Finally ..... I am writing this with a New Model-F (F77). I still have to tweak it and configure my layers, but boy ... the sound is so damn close! The feel is 100% right and Ellipse ... I have no words for what you have done here.

You wanted to see the Unboxing Video. I quickly recorded it without proper sound equipment or great editing. You basically see the two raw videos I merged together with the sound recorded by my cam. It has just been uploaded to youtube. If you want to get the HD version, you need to check back a little later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNYUK0dgMFM
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 June 2020, 15:22:09 by darkcruix »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2482 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 14:14:23 »
Nice photo bigpook!  Nice looking Model M caps on there!

Wonderful unboxing video and photos darkcruix - thank you for posting it!

Regarding the gap you pointed out in one of the cases - usually this is the issue of it being assembled with the inner assembly slightly out of place so the case can't close fully (it's tricky to get it exactly right - I usually adjust with the keyboard bottom side up, inside the foam packaging for protection. There are registration bumps on the left and right sides to line up the keyboard with the corresponding holes on the inner assembly). Sometimes the factory didn't 100% correctly adjust the case after it came out of the mold. They actually use a rubber mallet to adjust the cases back to spec if needed (I'd be careful if I were doing this after it's been powdercoated though - if anyone has any ideas please let me know).

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2483 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 14:45:45 »
The gap was a simple fix - just unscrewing both sides, aligning the backplate, and screwing it back together.

Here a few photos of the first three keyboards I stated using today. The impression after day #1 is that all three new keyboards are sounding great and are very close. I compared them with my F122 and F107 and they are super close to the F107. Biggest difference is the space bar, which sounded on the older versions higher pitched.

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Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2484 on: Sun, 21 June 2020, 17:16:02 »
I haven't seen the entirety of the unboxing video, I just skipped around trying to find mention of a gap. The F77 I got on Ebay was bent on the thin bar running close to and parallel to the space bar, to where it was bowed up in the center and not touching. The original F107 I purchased from a user on here was also, curiously, similarly bent. No amount of reseating the plate sandwhich would change this in my case. I bent both back carefully, repeatedly checking progress by pressing the bent part against the padded armrests of my steel office chair, of all things until it was no longer bowed and fit snugly against the lower half of the casing in that area.

Maybe that was somehow due to rough handling in shipping, since I imagine both boards have had long shipping journeys at least least twice in their lives.

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2485 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 01:54:50 »
I simply unscrewed the bottom part of the case, re-seated the backplate and screwed it back together. Then the gap disappeared (almost). As I can compare them with the perfect other F77 I have, I still see a little difference, but I will try to bend them as described. The functionality or sound wasn't impacted at all and you wouldn't see it on the front. Nevertheless, I'll get them to look as perfect as my others.

This is how it looked before re-aligning the backplate:
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Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2486 on: Mon, 22 June 2020, 02:25:17 »
Wow, yeah, that's rough. My reproduction F77 and F107 always lined up fine at the corners. They would just bow up closer to the center, where the case is thinnest. Even bending that part took some force, although I always worried about going too far. I think on my F107 I even ended up having to bend the bottom casing as well, just tad, to get everything pretty straight.

Those are some great boards you've got by the way. You make me want to order even more, knowing I still have a black F77 coming eventually still.

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2487 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 03:15:20 »
DT user Twst has posted a great video testing out a newly installed solenoid in a Brand New F77!

Thatís amazing!  How difficult is it to obtain and install?

Offline helborne

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2488 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 11:24:17 »
Anyone else have issues with cracks in the powdercoat on their new F77? If so how did you handle it? Or did you just leave the blemish and appreciate the flaw?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2489 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 12:03:41 »
Beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers now available to order!  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/

Beam spring controllers are priced at $100 shipped (within the US) for a little while, and then the price will go up to $119.

Is there any interest in the displaywriter beam spring controller?  I'd need commitments for 5-10 controllers at $100 each to order these controllers. 

I have just posted the June update on the project web site, for those who have not been following the forum threads closely in the past month and want a summary of all the updates in one place.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Pete I have just listed the xwhatsit solenoid drivers in the store (they have been nearly impossible to find in recent times) and I am planning on offering a custom made solenoid in the near future.

Summary of the blog update:

1  Orders continue shipping out (still time to order keyboards and add accessories to your order) and reviews and photos continue coming in!
2  Beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers are now available to order.  Custom made solenoids to follow soon (compatible with all xwhatsit keyboards:  Model F and beam spring!)
3  The early shipping option is still available (can request your keyboard to ship within about one month; details below)
4  Factory updates, details on my final stage QC work before each keyboard goes out:  Dye sublimation setup continues this month at the factory.  They are working as quickly as possible to start mass sublimation of key sets.
5  Some additional updates:  xwhatsit 0.9.2 firmware update, photos, QMK firmware, more Model F technical tips
 

Why is shipping slower than expected?  How will it speed up in the future?  When can my keyboard ship?  Read on to find outÖ
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 June 2020, 12:48:35 by Ellipse »

Offline Jedi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2490 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 14:41:37 »
Hi Ellipse, I am somewhat confused since there is the "classic" IBM Model F keyboard and then there is the Ellipse Model F keyboard.  For the beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers, does someone who does not own a IBM Model F keyboard but did order a Ellipse Model F keyboard have the option to purchase the beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers?  If so, what option do they choose?  Also, if purchasing the beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers for a Ellipse Model F keyboard, what specifically are we looking out for to complete the kit from you in the future.  Thank you.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2491 on: Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:14:34 »
Yes the store is open to everyone.  The beam spring controllers are for the old IBM beam spring keyboards, not for the new Model F keyboards.  The solenoid drivers work with new Model F, old Model F (with xwhatsit controller), and xwhatsit beam spring controllers.

Offline sam123456

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2492 on: Thu, 25 June 2020, 19:10:18 »
Hi Ellipse,

Long time enthusiast, first time poster here.

These boards look absolutely beautiful, and I am inclined to put in an order for one.

While I love the look of the original F77, I really value my mousing space, so I'm looking at the Ultra Compact Modern Case F77. However, it seems like most of the pictures folks are posting are of the original style F77s, so I was wondering if I could get a little bit more of an idea of how the ultra compact modern case looks, or perhaps just a bit of clarification on the colors.

The only pictures I've found of that case are the listing on the modelfkeyboards website, and these:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=231913;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=233622;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234295;image

However, I haven't seen any pictures of the the board in grey with any keys in it - the contrast in color between the board and keys might help me understand what the grey color actually looks like. I also haven't seen the board in Carolina blue or dark blue - do you (or anyone else!) have any pics of those that you could share? Am I correct in assuming that they are the same colors as these?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234085;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234083;image

Also, I am considering the blue keycaps, but I can't find any pictures of the printed versions of those. Am I correct that the full set of blue keycaps wouldn't have the rather unique legends from the industrial SSK set?

Finally, any idea of the backlog time for orders that are being put in now? :D

If all this info is available elsewhere, my apologies.

Cheers,
Sam

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2493 on: Thu, 25 June 2020, 19:53:26 »
Yes absolutely Sam.  I have actually posted an album of all the various keyboard configurations that have been mailed out, including the compact case keyboards:

https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f

https://imgur.com/9Aq2KHj

https://imgur.com/dHui5kr

I don't have any photos of the sublimated keycaps in other colors just yet.  Correct the Industrial SSK legends are only found in the Industrial SSK key set.

Backlog is still significant (have shipped more than 300 so far but have a ways to go) but there's an option to have your keyboard shipped within a month of your order date, ahead of the key sets (check out the recent blog entries for more details if interested).


Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2494 on: Fri, 26 June 2020, 17:50:38 »
Yes absolutely Sam.  I have actually posted an album of all the various keyboard configurations that have been mailed out, including the compact case keyboards:

https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f

https://imgur.com/9Aq2KHj

https://imgur.com/dHui5kr

I don't have any photos of the sublimated keycaps in other colors just yet.  Correct the Industrial SSK legends are only found in the Industrial SSK key set.

Backlog is still significant (have shipped more than 300 so far but have a ways to go) but there's an option to have your keyboard shipped within a month of your order date, ahead of the key sets (check out the recent blog entries for more details if interested).

I may be misremembering, or things have changed, but I thought that you previously said that the early shipment to the customer was only for boards in the first early bird shipment. I know I ordered back in December (initially with no caps, changed to blank ones) and tried to go the low serial number route to get one as fast as possible (I don't think I ended up with one particularly low, F77 191 apparently). When there was first mention of shipping some early back in March, you said mine was in the second shipment arriving in some months. Has this changed somehow more recently?

Just curious. I'm in no way in any rush anymore since I have an F107 and Ebay find F77 now anyway.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2495 on: Fri, 26 June 2020, 23:02:03 »
Solenoid update:  I am aiming for ordering a custom solenoid that will be even beefier than the original solenoid - a variation of the solenoid that is on eBay, but customized with an adjustable throw of about 0.5 or 1mm to 5mm for people who want something plug and play, factory set to 1mm throw, without having to drill or adjust anything.  Will let everyone know the update once I have more details.

Maledicted you are correct that not all early bird shipments are in stock.  We're all in the early bird now.  The first of two container shipments of the early bird round arrived last year and I've been mailing out keyboards since then.  The second container shipment of the early bird round should be leaving China in about one month from now (more details on the blog).

I just finished cataloging all the remaining keyboard inventory on hand and found some keyboard variations I thought I didn't have in stock a few months ago (like some with True Red F77 and F62 cases - please feel free to let me know ASAP if anyone's interested and check out the web site for ordering information).

Over on DT we were discussing IBM's pricing and approach with "full service" maintenance contracts.  On a somewhat related note I thought I'd summarize the project philosophy (was talking with someone about this recently) and how I share some aspects with IBM (importance of quality, a focus on an exact reproduction but with updates to allow usage with modern devices) but differ on the full service vs. DIY approach to maintenance and repairs.  As always if someone wants to share a better way of wording it please do!


Model F Project philosophy: full user control of product maintenance and repairs

The Model F keyboard is a robust design. Every part is 100% user-replaceable / user-repairable, often needing just a couple tools:  screwdrivers, pliers, and at most a soldering iron.  Compared to other consumer electronics products, Model F repair is easy and even a complete beginner can get up to speed quickly on how to use the keyboard software and keep their keyboard going for decades to come.

To reiterate the project philosophy, this is a community type project where the goal is to have a product that you can use and learn to maintain yourself for decades from now, long after production has ended, with help from the community if need be.  The most basic recommended maintenance involves just taking off the keys with a wire key cap puller to clean them with mild soap and water every now and then.

I know I'm used to just bringing something back to the store if anything is wrong with it and for something complicated like a motherboard or graphics card that's probably the best option, but the new Model F project philosophy is for the users to be able to fix small issues themselves due to the simplicity and full repairability of the Model F design (many buyers come from the world of the original IBM keyboards that are decades old and almost certainly require some maintenance work, so they expect it and are used to it). This keeps costs down so I am able to offer these keyboards at less than half of what IBM charged for them (adjusted for inflation).  Also there's a great community of Model F keyboard fans, most prominently on sites like Deskthority and geekhack. You will never be out of reach of someone who can offer you advice and help in the coming years.

There are definitely markets for hardware with service contracts.  Not sure about a market for a +$100 more costly keyboard with full maintenance and technical support though.  IBM's 1980s price guides mentioned they would require charging banking customers a minimum of about $100 per year (not adjusted for inflation) for each original Model F keyboard in maintenance costs as part of a service contract.  However, if I had to hire staff to deal with "free" returns, more personalized technical support / phone support, and doing even the most minor repairs (re-seating keys, replacing springs and barrels, changing the USB cable, etc.), each keyboard would cost a lot more because of overhead costs, and these keyboards are already not inexpensive to begin with. And it would slow me down even further mailing out these great keyboards.  I believe that this direct to consumer, community type project is the best way to bring the Model F to as many people as possible and at the lowest possible cost.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 June 2020, 23:04:49 by Ellipse »

Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2496 on: Fri, 26 June 2020, 23:38:13 »
IBM wanted to charge $100 per year per keyboard for support? How many of those boards could even possibly have needed service within a year? They must have assumed banks had the cash to go around in exchange for peace of mind.

I love your approach. You're making great boards at a great value. I would even personally prefer just skipping the final QC process and letting me work out the kinks myself, though it makes sense to do in general. I hate always being deterred from making modifications to something I own by pesky warranties, and warranty seals ... which rarely ever end up being of any use anyway. I imagine most, if not all, of these Model Fs are going to be serviceable with minor maintenance, or no maintenance, long after we're all dead.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2497 on: Sun, 28 June 2020, 11:16:27 »
From what survived / what was in my collection, many of the 4704s in my past collection were refurbished at some point.  They may have replaced the entire inner assembly for a bank if there was a bad key and then refurbished the old inner assembly on their side; I don't know.  Many inner assemblies were newer than the production sticker on the cases.  Some with new inner assembly PCBs were made as late as 1996!

Check out page 49, IBM 4704 section, 4662 and 4677 keyboards (F62 and F77):  $21 a month minimum maintenance charges per keyboard as of 1984.  The F62 cost 340 and the F77 cost 375 in 1984 dollars which means $839 and $925 in today's dollars (4607 was the F107 model - page 48).
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/serviceForConsultants/Service_For_Consultants_198401/198401_03_Hardware_Prices.pdf

I am getting close to ordering the custom made solenoids.  The factory has just submitted the technical drawings and specifications.  I am aiming to order a custom solenoid that will be even beefier than the original solenoid - a variation of the solenoid that is on eBay, but customized with an adjustable throw of about 0.5 to 5mm for people who want something plug and play, factory set to 1mm throw, without having to drill or adjust anything. Will let everyone know the update once I have more details.

When the solenoid is activated there is a metal on metal click, and the solenoid cylinder has a rubber O ring between the strike bar and the metal clip so the return sound is quieter (otherwise there would be 2 loud clicks for each key press).

ebay version:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
« Last Edit: Sun, 28 June 2020, 11:18:09 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2498 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:11:12 »
I wanted to share an important blog post from today:


PSA:  A note on package theft and porch pirates - how you can help

Millions of packages are stolen every year, from what I have recently read.

Unfortunately the contents of a delivered Brand New Model F Keyboard order appear to have been stolen recently.  I am working with the buyer and through proper channels to investigate the matter and cannot comment further on it at this time.

There are some misconceptions on this topic, but if a package is delivered and then the package and/or its contents go missing (possibly from "porch pirates"), the seller is not held responsible for paying for a new order, and shipping insurance does not cover packages after they are delivered (though some of the big companies can afford to take the loss and decide to replace the order, or mandate buyer-friendly resolutions as a matter of policy so some buyers mistakenly believe they have no liability for any package theft from any company they order from).  It is a similar situation to someone breaking into your car or house and taking your property - the place you bought the item from is not responsible.  I know this does not seem fair but that is the current state of the matter.  Obviously please do first check with those who live around you as someone may have taken in the package to help you.

How you can help:

1.  Please email me immediately about any Brand New Model F listings that you see that are not mine, as they may be stolen property and I can first check the serial number and, if needed, alert the proper channels.  Each keyboard has a serial number I can track to a specific owner, and I know the serials that are reported missing vs. if someone is just selling what they ordered which is fine (a serial number not listed as missing is not a problem).  If the serial label has been defaced or removed, it may be a stolen item.

2.  I will recommend again that everyone orders signature confirmation if someone is not able to be there to accept the package, or arrange to have the package held for delivery by USPS or at a UPS store (I don't think there's a cost to hold mail).  For signature confirmation please order 7 units of the store item $1 increments and note "signature confirmation" if interested in that option (this amount is for shipments within the US; contact me for international rates).  This way you prevent the package from being taken after it is delivered.  Given the low rate of package thefts I do not force everyone to pay more; it is optional though theft does happen and you could lose a lot more than $7 if your package is taken after delivery.  When you receive a package, make sure it is approximately the weight you ordered before signing for it and consider refusing delivery if there is a discrepancy.  In my order confirmation emails I add notes on what shipped and what has not shipped, and you can see on the package tracking page the exact weight of the shipment.  A note that your entire order may not ship in one shipment so please be aware that you may correctly be receiving only a portion of what you ordered in one shipment.  The shipping companies usually don't let you open a package to inspect it before signing, but if a package appears to weigh far less than what was on the label or it looks too small you do not have to sign for it.  A classic case keyboard box is 18 or 21 x 13 x 3 inches (depending on F62 vs. F77) and a compact case keyboard box is about 18 or 21 x 8 x 3 inches.

Online Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2499 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:32:18 »
Good information. That sucks for that purchaser. I hope that keyboard is recovered. I haven't heard of any packages ever being stolen in my area, and we have a Ring doorbell. With all of the package thefts that have been on the rise in the last few years, you would think more people would get a doorbell camera like that, especially if they're ordering things that cost $400+.

I particularly hate how most apartment complexes work. I can't count how many times I have walked into one and just seen packages lying about near the individual boxes of tenants, in a lobby that's completely accessible to the public. A stranger walking up to a house and nabbing a package, then leaving that house, looks a lot more suspicious than somebody walking into an apartment lobby and grabbing a package, where hundreds of people may come and go in a day, tenants and visitors alike, and very few people know each other at all.