Author Topic: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]  (Read 28663 times)

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Offline RominRonin

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Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 15:34:35 »
Link to the most recent update post, with the most up-to-date layout for the Tsuka60 PCB and other information about the project progress.


Link to a previous update post.


Original Post:

More
Symmetrical staggered layouts are among early attempts at more ergonomic layouts for typists. The Katana60 brought these layouts to a new and engaged mechanical keyboard community. Iíve explored the layout further and identified improvements that both simplify the transition from traditional layouts and allow further customisation and engagement with contemporary community trends (read: keycaps and cases). Introducing Katana60 v2.






PCB Supported Layouts



The Katana60 fits in standard 60% cases, so you can choose from a wide variety of pre-existing cases. The added support of standard bottom rows (new in v2) adds further flexibility to your custom keyboard. For example, the addition of the popular 7u space bar bottom row allows the buyer to try 60% WKL cases or HHKB style cases with 1.5u blockers.



v2 Universal layout example (default)



The default layout adds the benefits of a symmetrical stagger to a traditional legacy keyboard layout, and little more. The layout is 100% row-profile correct and key positioning follows the common qwerty positioning. Unlike other variants, international keycap sets are supported with this layout.

Non-standard keycaps required
2x row 4 - 1.5u
1x row 3 - 1.75u (extra)

The required caps can be found in GMK group buys or other premium keycap sets.

Here it is shown with the standard bottom row. An alternative asymmetrical bottom row is also supported, with additional thumb keys.



v2 Symmetrical layout example



This layout is also 100% row-profile correct. Key positions have been relocated for the symmetric aesthetic. The optional 2u backspace key is shown here, alongside a split, symmetric space bar arrangement. The alternative bottom row with a 7u space bar is shown, this allows support for HHKB style cases with 1.5u blockers.



Katana60 v1 'Classic'



The default layout of the original Katana60 has its benefits. Although it didn't support any 100% correct row profile layouts, it could be covered using a stand ANSI keycap set and nothing more.

Support for the v1 layout can be built in to the v2 PCB, but there are some caveats to this approach, so I'd like to guage interest in the Classic layout before devoting time to adding it to the v2. Firstly, and importantly, implementation of the Classic bottom row would require us to drop support for the 6.25u bottom row option (since the stabilisers will overlap). Another caveat is the offset of the alphas between the two layouts. Implementing this is possible, but it adds complexity (and therefore time) to the process.

I have prepared an interest check form to measure the interest in the options before developing the PCB. Here's a link, please fill it out and leave any comments or suggestions in the thread below.



Thank you for your interest and your time.

RominRonin
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 April 2020, 16:29:22 by RominRonin »

Offline AbstraktDesignLab

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 15:43:55 »
I would definitely be interested in this! I love messing with these new and unique layouts. Any plans for Alps support?

Offline _ODIN_

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 15:53:33 »
I like the 7u spacebar option.

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Offline Zilleon

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 15:58:19 »
I'm definitely interested!

I would love to see the option of using 2u instead of the 'split tab'.

Also, have you considered making the plate files available? That way we could get plates for top mount cases from laserboost or whatever

Offline Xynerorias

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 16:14:27 »
Man do I like the V2 symmetrical!
Also, hotswap?

Offline juliandoucette

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 17:31:37 »
Looks interesting to me.

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 20:20:59 »
The slightly wider layout is great, nice to be able to use standard 1.75u Caps Lock and Control keys.

However I'm not sold on the bottom row. Some adaptation of the V1 bottom row options would be ideal for me.

I also don't love the big wide keys in the middle. I like the gap with the logo in V1; maybe V2 could have indicator lights? Or... a rotary encoder  :p
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Offline TheAutoManCan

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 20:47:44 »
Personally I prefer the layout of the v1 better. The stagger on the v1 is consistent from the alphas to the number row where the v2 top rows just decide to go ortho for some reason.

I really like the 7u spacebar option. Usually I hate 7u spacebar layouts because they aren't centered to where you hold your hands but it would make sense with a layout like this.

I definitely don't like the other 1.25u/1.5u bottom row layouts. I think cleaning up the split spacebar layout from the v1 would be better. Would look less cluttered.

Offline clickityClackity

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 22:03:01 »
Here are my thoughts as a huge fan of the Katana. I finally got around to using my Katana-60 regularly - it's been my daily driver for about three months now. There are a couple things about the V2 that I really like when compared to the V1:

* Center buttons on bottom two rows: As much as I liked the concept of the center buttons on the bottom two rows, in practical terms I never use them. They're in kind of an awkward spot and it's surprisingly hard to find them when not looking at the keyboard. V2 addresses this.
* Non-symeyrical bottom row: it bugs me how beautifully symmetrical everything was in V1.... Except for that bottom row. V2 addresses that.
* Number row: while I love the the look of the original, the numbers are in such an odd place on the left side that I totally had to retrain myself on where they are. On top of that, I wanted them placed asymmetrically on both halves, so now it's weird on both sides. I still struggle with finding the right numbers from time to time and have to look down (which I trained myself not to do on all my keyboards).

At the moment, there's really only one thing I don't like:

* Top row: it totally rakes away from the symmetrical staggered look! Maybe it will look great put together, but it's one of the things I love about the Katana and this detracts from that big time.

As far as functionality, V2 takes the cake. It's addressed several issues I've come across and has some cool additions (namely the center buttons on the bottom two rows). Normally I'm all about functionality, but I'm a sucker for symmetry and V2 seems to detract from that so I'm kind of torn... I love the changes, and I hate the changes. Considering how much I'm using this keyboard though, I'll probably end up getting a V2 though.


Quick side note: if you're considering getting one of these and haven't used one before, be warned! It's awesome, but it will **** you up when you have to go back to a standard layout!!!

Offline calbatr0ss

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 01 May 2019, 07:09:49 »
Personally I I love the idea of the Katana V1 layout, but with a symmetrical split bottom row. It's visually the most appealing I don't know how easy it would be to adapt to the proposed 1u tab on the V2... (I know it could be remapped)

Also, I know I've said it before but it would be really awesome if the V2 PCB had a USB-C connector!

Great work as always, and thanks!

Offline GigaFlop

  • Posts: 85
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 01 May 2019, 20:16:16 »
I was looking at the original version a few weeks ago, excited to see it in an IC so soon after. Plain 60%s don't really do it for me anymore.
Oh god why did my wallet get so thin

Offline voight-kampff

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 02 May 2019, 09:04:24 »
cool
I am in for a few pcb-s

Offline Kokaloo

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 12 May 2019, 22:43:49 »
Yes pleeaassee! :D
i daily iris and idb

Offline nuclear_wizard

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 May 2019, 10:53:23 »
Love the layout (been using my V1 for a while now), but for the love of everything holy, please offer alternative vendors to Candykeys.

Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:29:45 »
I've been waiting for a Katana with a regular bottom row and this looks almost perfect. I've not used V1 as it was out of stock for while when was planning a build but not that V2 is on the horizon, I'm definitely in! :)

That top row and CapsLock/Tab keys are a bit weird but I get why that's been done. A 1u Tab key could be a bit uncomfortable but well, this isn't your typical layout anyway so  :thumb:

Keycap profile compatibility is something I value highly so I'm voting for a 7u bottom row V2 option but a V1 with 7u bottom row is pretty much the most symmetrical 60% board you can get without going full ortho. :D
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Offline radam

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 17:41:03 »
I'm really interested in the v1 layout. It feels a lot like an ergo 40%+ and that interests me more than trying to fit all the keys in the right places. Losing split space and staggered number row would also make me real sad. (Hi, I'm new).

Offline CandyKeys

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 17 May 2019, 07:02:30 »
Hey all!
Great to see the feedback rolling in now.

We would like to inform you that the KATANA will also be available from your local region dealer for MK stuff. For USA it is unconfirmed but for Asia it should possibly be Zfrontier, they will have these things in stock and will not be a GB when complete.

This will prevent any issues with exports, long shipping times, issues with the long journey they take that the V1 was suffering from.
The CandyKeys Mechanical Keyboard Store

Offline jaang

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 17 May 2019, 23:16:31 »
Would love to be able to submit multiple options in the form, but that aside I'm super interested, but would love to at least keep the delete key from the v1.

Offline voight-kampff

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 28 May 2019, 14:57:58 »
any news about the v2?

Offline Clix4Clax

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 30 May 2019, 21:27:47 »
Definitely in for at least 1

Offline Lunatique

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 01 June 2019, 15:38:16 »
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Offline ungarida

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 02 June 2019, 15:18:45 »
Hi RominRonin,
in case you do not recall I'm a proud owner of a Katana60 v1.

To be honest I would not buy a v2, I love the last row in the v1 and I think arrows keys make it more useful.
Crazy idea, I would love and buy a v2 with track point, like Tex Yoda II.




Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 02 June 2019, 19:56:48 »
Hi RominRonin,
in case you do not recall I'm a proud owner of a Katana60 v1.

To be honest I would not buy a v2, I love the last row in the v1 and I think arrows keys make it more useful.
Crazy idea, I would love and buy a v2 with track point, like Tex Yoda II.

v1 + trackpoint is the dream for this layout! Pretty sure the Paladin64 PCB has trackpoint support -- not sure if it's open source though.
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Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 03 June 2019, 01:35:34 »
Hi RominRonin,
in case you do not recall I'm a proud owner of a Katana60 v1.

To be honest I would not buy a v2, I love the last row in the v1 and I think arrows keys make it more useful.
Crazy idea, I would love and buy a v2 with track point, like Tex Yoda II.

We need more PCBs with trackpoint support. I'd buy it in a heartbeat!  :p
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Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 03 June 2019, 04:45:56 »
Personally I'd also LOVE trackpoint support. I agree that it would make the Katana60 perfect.

Unfortunately, I have very little time for the research and development required to correctly support a trackpoint device, so if any volunteers out there are willing to:

  • Locate a trackpoint module that is in supply and performs consistently well*
  • Invest the time in developing the footprint (I haven't found any footprints for existing modules)
  • prototyping etc.

Then I'd be happy to work with them. Prototyping costs are something that I could possibly support with.

Remember also that anyone investing in a Katana60 with the intention of using it with a trackpoint would have to do some DIY customisation (the plate would have to be drilled and/or keycaps).

If you expect it as complete project, with as little DIY as possible, then my first reaction would be to fix the PCB layouts to a handful of popular choices and include a keycap set too. Heck, I would even want a custom case.

I simply do not have the time to pursue this myself, nor do I have enough interest to even make time for all of the above right now, there's simply too many other things requiring my attention IRL.

On the positive side, I'm also not so precious about the project, I'm simply interested in bringing this style of layout to more users. I certainly wouldn't want to prevent any others from implementing their own versions. I don't own the layout, you know?



* The trackpoint on the original Tex Yoda II had several issues, including high sensitivity and a not-great failure rate. The new module fixes those issues.

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 04 June 2019, 07:36:14 »
 On the PCB side, someone has already developed it! https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8hq283/gb_paladin64_alps64_pcb_with_underglow_and/

Their solution for an actual trackpoint module was to buy a tongue ring. I actually have one of these but have not had the time to put it together and get the trackpoint working. But maybe you can reach out to the creator so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
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Offline ungarida

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 05 June 2019, 10:26:07 »
Personally I'd also LOVE trackpoint support. I agree that it would make the Katana60 perfect.

Unfortunately, I have very little time for the research and development required to correctly support a trackpoint device, so if any volunteers out there are willing to:

  • Locate a trackpoint module that is in supply and performs consistently well*
  • Invest the time in developing the footprint (I haven't found any footprints for existing modules)
  • prototyping etc.

Then I'd be happy to work with them. Prototyping costs are something that I could possibly support with.

Remember also that anyone investing in a Katana60 with the intention of using it with a trackpoint would have to do some DIY customisation (the plate would have to be drilled and/or keycaps).

If you expect it as complete project, with as little DIY as possible, then my first reaction would be to fix the PCB layouts to a handful of popular choices and include a keycap set too. Heck, I would even want a custom case.

I simply do not have the time to pursue this myself, nor do I have enough interest to even make time for all of the above right now, there's simply too many other things requiring my attention IRL.

On the positive side, I'm also not so precious about the project, I'm simply interested in bringing this style of layout to more users. I certainly wouldn't want to prevent any others from implementing their own versions. I don't own the layout, you know?



* The trackpoint on the original Tex Yoda II had several issues, including high sensitivity and a not-great failure rate. The new module fixes those issues.

Even if I'm not an expert in the hardware area, I will start some research and hopefully we can start this amazing project :)

Offline ungarida

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 05 June 2019, 13:48:10 »
For future reference this is a good list of https://deskthority.net/wiki/TrackPoint_Hardware

Offline ungarida

  • Posts: 8
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 19 June 2019, 07:55:49 »
Personally I'd also LOVE trackpoint support. I agree that it would make the Katana60 perfect.

Unfortunately, I have very little time for the research and development required to correctly support a trackpoint device, so if any volunteers out there are willing to:

  • Locate a trackpoint module that is in supply and performs consistently well*
  • Invest the time in developing the footprint (I haven't found any footprints for existing modules)
  • prototyping etc.

Then I'd be happy to work with them. Prototyping costs are something that I could possibly support with.

Remember also that anyone investing in a Katana60 with the intention of using it with a trackpoint would have to do some DIY customisation (the plate would have to be drilled and/or keycaps).

If you expect it as complete project, with as little DIY as possible, then my first reaction would be to fix the PCB layouts to a handful of popular choices and include a keycap set too. Heck, I would even want a custom case.

I simply do not have the time to pursue this myself, nor do I have enough interest to even make time for all of the above right now, there's simply too many other things requiring my attention IRL.

On the positive side, I'm also not so precious about the project, I'm simply interested in bringing this style of layout to more users. I certainly wouldn't want to prevent any others from implementing their own versions. I don't own the layout, you know?



* The trackpoint on the original Tex Yoda II had several issues, including high sensitivity and a not-great failure rate. The new module fixes those issues.

Regarding the module supply, after days of research, the most viable solution is to buy Lenovo keyboards and remove the TrackPoint module. This should guarantee some quality and also documentation availability ( like https://deskthority.net/wiki/TrackPoint ).
On Alibaba, there are brand new for less than 5 euros https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Selling-Original-US-Version-Black_60824450355.html

Offline gimpel

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 22 June 2019, 08:31:28 »
Interested in the symmetrical v2 variant, personally not interested in trackpoints or classic support.

Offline Clix4Clax

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 22 June 2019, 11:32:37 »
+1 will buy a symmetrical v2 when live.  :thumb:

Offline coralof

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 27 June 2019, 16:33:33 »
I am also interested in the V2 Symmetrical! Really looking forward to when it's made available! :D

EDIT: Yeah, I think I still prefer the v1 layout, I'm glad it's going to have a second run!
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 July 2019, 15:36:12 by coralof »

Offline sinnyc

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 27 June 2019, 20:51:15 »
I'm interested in this, too.  V2

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 13:34:14 »
I think it's time for an update. I've closed the IC form with a total of 62 responses. Iíve reviewed the numbers and itís interesting. Here's the analysis.

New layout vs Old layout
On the question of the new layout vs the old layout, the result was split almost down the middle: 30 were in favour of the new layout vs 27 in favour of the old.

New Layout, 6.25u spacebar vs indifferent
Those of you who preferred the new layout are lukewarm about the inclusion of a 6.25u spacebar option, with only one third voting for the compatibility option.

Old Layout, default bottom row vs indifferent
Back to the original layout, a surprising two thirds of you were in favour of keeping the default bottom row - this came as a suprise, considering all the negative feedback I got about the bottom row being asymmetric. I expected more of you would be in favour of ditching it in favour of a symmetric new layout. This is why these IC periods are important.

Decision time
Given the split in popularity between the new and old layouts, I have decided to make not one but two new Katana boards.

I will start by making a Katana60 revision 2, with the same layout as the original Katana60 (including the default bottom row), plus an extra symmetrical bottom row option for those with OCD ;) - I'll follow up with example images soon.

I will be dropping the ALPS compatibility on that board - almost everyone who ordered the last time went with MX builds. If there is significant outcry, this decision can be revisited, but as it stands, revision 2 will be MX only.


What about the NEW layout?
As for the NEW layout, firstly it needs a new name - in the very least to avoid confusion with the Katana60 rev 1 + 2. You might have guessed by the response times here that I have been very busy IRL. I think the decision to make 2 PCBs is the right one, however, I only have enough time to design one right now. When the Katana60 revision 2 is complete and in stock, Iíll make a start with the new layout.

Thank you for your support, watch this space for updates.

Offline sinnyc

  • Posts: 29
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 08 July 2019, 18:51:58 »
I'm glad this idea is still going.  I'm definitely interested.


What about the NEW layout?
As for the NEW layout, firstly it needs a new name - in the very least to avoid confusion with the Katana60 rev 1 + 2.

Some ideas for a name:
  • Katana2.0
  • Wakizashi - A Wakizashi is a companion sword to a Katana.  Both were usually worn together.  It was shorter and meant for close up fighting as it was more manageable than the longer Katana in those situations.
  • Pseudo-Katana
  • Sudo-Katana - a pun on pseudo and the sudo command
  • KatanataK - A palindrome that emphasizes the symmetry of the new Katana layout.


Offline CandyKeys

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 09 July 2019, 07:17:07 »
+1 for Wakizashi
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Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 10 July 2019, 13:36:57 »
I think it's time for an update. I've closed the IC form with a total of 62 responses. Iíve reviewed the numbers and itís interesting. Here's the analysis.

New layout vs Old layout
On the question of the new layout vs the old layout, the result was split almost down the middle: 30 were in favour of the new layout vs 27 in favour of the old.

New Layout, 6.25u spacebar vs indifferent
Those of you who preferred the new layout are lukewarm about the inclusion of a 6.25u spacebar option, with only one third voting for the compatibility option.

Old Layout, default bottom row vs indifferent
Back to the original layout, a surprising two thirds of you were in favour of keeping the default bottom row - this came as a suprise, considering all the negative feedback I got about the bottom row being asymmetric. I expected more of you would be in favour of ditching it in favour of a symmetric new layout. This is why these IC periods are important.

Decision time
Given the split in popularity between the new and old layouts, I have decided to make not one but two new Katana boards.

I will start by making a Katana60 revision 2, with the same layout as the original Katana60 (including the default bottom row), plus an extra symmetrical bottom row option for those with OCD ;) - I'll follow up with example images soon.

I will be dropping the ALPS compatibility on that board - almost everyone who ordered the last time went with MX builds. If there is significant outcry, this decision can be revisited, but as it stands, revision 2 will be MX only.


What about the NEW layout?
As for the NEW layout, firstly it needs a new name - in the very least to avoid confusion with the Katana60 rev 1 + 2. You might have guessed by the response times here that I have been very busy IRL. I think the decision to make 2 PCBs is the right one, however, I only have enough time to design one right now. When the Katana60 revision 2 is complete and in stock, Iíll make a start with the new layout.

Thank you for your support, watch this space for updates.

+1 for Wakizashi

I'm probably one of those people that is in favour of a symmetrical v1 Katana60 as it looked good for me except for that bottom row (what to do with that many thumb keys? :D).

Also +1 for Wakizashi. It sounds cool but I wouldn't remember it from the top of my brain though.
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Offline coralof

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 11 July 2019, 08:55:17 »
I like the name wakizashi for the v2, but in my mind, I keep thinking that because a wakizashi is smaller than a katana, v2 is going to come out and be a 40% board or something.   ;)

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 14:05:55 »
I'm probably one of those people that is in favour of a symmetrical v1 Katana60 as it looked good for me except for that bottom row (what to do with that many thumb keys? :D).

Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E

I really like the 7u bottom row, not least because it opens up the possibility of a Katana60 being used in a HHKB style case, with 1.5u stoppers.

Oh, and regarding names for the V2 (not the Katana60 revision 2), I really like 'Tsuka'. Google it.

Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 15:36:47 »
I'm probably one of those people that is in favour of a symmetrical v1 Katana60 as it looked good for me except for that bottom row (what to do with that many thumb keys? :D).

Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E

I really like the 7u bottom row, not least because it opens up the possibility of a Katana60 being used in a HHKB style case, with 1.5u stoppers.

Oh, and regarding names for the V2 (not the Katana60 revision 2), I really like 'Tsuka'. Google it.

Oh that's a good album. Love the DIY not-sandwich case idea. Also the angled feet. So simple yet missing in sandwich cases.
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline radam

  • Posts: 49
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 16:29:20 »
I'm probably one of those people that is in favour of a symmetrical v1 Katana60 as it looked good for me except for that bottom row (what to do with that many thumb keys? :D).

Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E

I really like the 7u bottom row, not least because it opens up the possibility of a Katana60 being used in a HHKB style case, with 1.5u stoppers.

Oh, and regarding names for the V2 (not the Katana60 revision 2), I really like 'Tsuka'. Google it.

I like this very much

edit:

by the way i do very much like the symmetrical bottom row with original katana layout more than the classic bottom row.
It looks nicer and is much easier to fill with proper key profile

I think i did vote for the classic bottom row, but i don't think this particular option was available when voting
« Last Edit: Fri, 12 July 2019, 16:36:33 by radam »

Offline sinnyc

  • Posts: 29
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 12 July 2019, 17:04:00 »
Oh, and regarding names for the V2 (not the Katana60 revision 2), I really like 'Tsuka'. Google it.

Yes, that name would work very nicely, too.

Offline vosechu

  • Posts: 88
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 15 July 2019, 01:01:33 »
Iím totally in, but form is closed. Can I still get in?

Offline funderburker

  • * Exquisite Elder
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 15 July 2019, 05:13:17 »
Iím totally in, but form is closed. Can I still get in?

This is only an IC. Read some posts back, there's an update on what RominRonin is planning to do regarding the layouts and feedback from people who filled IC form.
Nothing has been set in stone with a timeline but if you are in than you can just follow this thread for updates and such. Usually when thing's are ready for production and everything's been figured out, stuff move into GB (group buy) and that's when you need to really follow as there's specific timeline people can join that.
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline vosechu

  • Posts: 88
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 15 July 2019, 09:02:35 »
Thanks!

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 20 July 2019, 13:16:12 »
Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E
by the way i do very much like the symmetrical bottom row with original katana layout more than the classic bottom row.
It looks nicer and is much easier to fill with proper key profile

I think i did vote for the classic bottom row, but i don't think this particular option was available when voting

The final bottom rows are still a work in progress, currently it looks like this for the Katana60 revision 2:



and for the Tsuka:




I'll post something more in-depth in the next day or two, with some photos. Please keep in mind that these images are intended to show my current intentions with the bottom row, and do not depict the final layouts supported by either PCB.
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 July 2019, 13:18:05 by RominRonin »

Offline sinnyc

  • Posts: 29
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 20 July 2019, 14:00:52 »
I'm liking both the V2 and Tsuka versions a lot and am beginning to lean towards the symmetrical 2.75u split space bars.  Honestly, I'm into either of these layouts.

Has the ability to program this been discussed?  I'd love to reprogram the caps lock key :)

Offline radam

  • Posts: 49
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 20 July 2019, 14:48:18 »
these look really nice and i'm happy that there will be 2 pcbs.
i would like to try out tsuka, but have an opportunity for another katana.

i hope it would be possible to share a plate file that we could modify.
i'd like to try the tsuka, but without any keys in the center or maybe fit a rotary encoder in the bottom center in that 2ux2u area.

Offline coralof

  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Dallas, Texas
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 22 July 2019, 10:43:47 »
Checking back every day to make sure I don't miss anything! Thanks for the update!  :D

Offline Sedula

  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 23 July 2019, 22:29:38 »
I assume the tsuka we're going for here is 柄 (hilt/haft/handle), but just as a point of interest, there's also (mound/hillock; burial mound/tomb/barrow).

Offline sinnyc

  • Posts: 29
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 30 July 2019, 17:06:05 »
Throwing in a love bump to get some more eyes on this.

Offline Karni

  • Posts: 47
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 03 August 2019, 09:00:28 »
would love to pick one up and give it a try

Offline ilikerustoo

  • Posts: 63
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 10 August 2019, 22:02:07 »
So is this happening?

Offline rumlyne

  • Posts: 31
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  • ortho, ergo, ertho?!
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #53 on: Sun, 11 August 2019, 07:05:55 »
Who knew the Katana60 came out of my city!? Servus RominRonin!

Layout:
I prefer the V1 in general but I do prefer the new bottom row options! Hot-Swap would be cool but not essential. just make sure the pin holes are not too small for the MillMax sockets.

Name:
Wakizashi & Tanto should be reserved for 50-40% and 40-30% versions so that it is accurate  ;)
What about Daitō (meaning long sword which includes the katana - fitting especially if you ensure backwards compatibility)?
For a fullsize/TKL: nodachi (very long katana)
If you go wireless yumi (japanese bow) or naginata - you know... killing from a distance and such. Both would be perfect! Or maybe daikyū (longbow) for a full size or TKL and hankyū (short bow) for a 60% or smaller.

Trackpoint:
That'd be cool! Especially if fit in the 0.5u gap between the keys in the middle row - that way no keycaps would have to be modified!
An alternative would be one of these blackberry mini trackballs. They cost about a dolloar on aliexpress and are decent quality and easy enough to implement (basically just 2 rotary encoders, one for each axis) and has been done before ( https://github.com/xton/qmk_firmware/tree/xton/dev/users/xtonhasvim ). Since the base is quite wide appropriate placement is though since at least 0.75u space is required. Maybe in the bottom row between the split spacebars? Also we'd need a cover so that it looks nice. That can mean a small plastic or metal cover... or a full custom top-mounted case lol.
(Also when we successfully implement a trackpoint/trackball solution we should at least think about a wireless implementation. AFAIK there's nothing open source out there but let's all have a short look! I've been looking into just that before I saw this thread and one name came to mind... the purest essence of a weapon... Shinken. (google it))

I'd be helping if I had the time, honestly, but I'll definitely buy one (if row 1-3 remain v1-classic)
« Last Edit: Sun, 11 August 2019, 09:59:04 by rumlyne »


Insert Signature without plastics

Offline Sedula

  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #54 on: Sun, 11 August 2019, 11:08:06 »
You could always call it Daikatana, but then it'd be three years late and a disappointment to everyone.

Offline raetiacorvus

  • Posts: 1
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 23 August 2019, 05:36:19 »
Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E
by the way i do very much like the symmetrical bottom row with original katana layout more than the classic bottom row.
It looks nicer and is much easier to fill with proper key profile

I think i did vote for the classic bottom row, but i don't think this particular option was available when voting

The final bottom rows are still a work in progress, currently it looks like this for the Katana60 revision 2:

Show Image


and for the Tsuka:

Show Image



I'll post something more in-depth in the next day or two, with some photos. Please keep in mind that these images are intended to show my current intentions with the bottom row, and do not depict the final layouts supported by either PCB.

Hi i am probably late to the party. Since i recently started to use my Katana60 more like a 40% i probably won't be able to provide that much valuable input anyway. What bothers me a bit about the new symmetrical bottom rows for the classic layout is the reduction in keys accessible by thumbs. It would be really nice if it could support the symmetric 1 + 4 * 1.25 + 1.5 + mirror bottom row you suggested originally or some variation of it.

225012-0


Offline Sedula

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 21:13:22 »
Been a little over five weeks since this thread saw any activity: Any updates?

Offline jlouis

  • Posts: 1
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 01 October 2019, 01:44:26 »
Hey @RominRonin, I've been looking for the Katana60 PCB for some time and now I just found out about this thread.
I would really like to buy a Katana60 PCB.

Offline RominRonin

  • Thread Starter
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:16:46 »
Finally it's time for an update. I've been mega busy this year (getting married, building a house, extremely demanding project at work, recording and producing an album etc) so I have had very little time to devote to the Katana series.

But first... Servus @rumlyne! I bin a a Wiena ;)


Have no fear, Katana60 (classic) is here
I have not been idle during this time. I've been in communication with David @candykeys - he wants to get a second round of Katana60 PCBs in stock as soon as possible - I have developed a Katana60 rev 2 PCB, that was the quickest route to getting a version of the Katana layout in stock. It has the same layout support as the original run (so it matches the beautiful plates he already has in stock from the first run) with the added addition of a 7u bottom row option (not compatible with the plate).



An order will be placed very soon. I'll probably post something here about that. David has been building connections with overseas sellers so some of the non-EU buyers will have some alternative stores to choose from, thank you David.


What about the new layouts discussed here?
Firstly, I want to focus on what is currently known as the Tsuka60 layout. The Katana60 supports a wide variety of sets, cases and bottom rows, but all those bottom rows complicate it. I want to be free of those constraints and focus on aesthetics in two main ways:
  • Symmetrical bottom rows
  • 100% correct row profile

The first is easily achieved by dropping support for the many esoteric complete keysets that was one goal of the original. We'll pick a handful of bottom rows that are symmetrical and do not interfere with one another.

As for the second point, unfortunately Katana60 is not popular enough on it's own to influence IC and GB planners to include the required keycaps in their '40s + ortho' addon kits. Until such a time that it is, I want to focus my next PCB on something that can have 100% correct row profile without hunting around for crazy rare keycaps (r3 1.25u, I'm looking at you).

This means that I will continue working on the Tsuka variants (the bottom rows I posted recently still apply), but I will not work on any classic Katana60 based layouts in new boards until further notice.

I expect prototyping of the Tsuka to be complete by the end of this month (October) once that's done I'll run a GB for the PCBs. I prefer plateless builds these days, they produce lighter boards and I don't have to commit to one specific bottom row. I can make plate files available for those who wish to get their own cut.



Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 15:39:58 »
Finally it's time for an update. I've been mega busy this year (getting married, building a house, extremely demanding project at work, recording and producing an album etc) so I have had very little time to devote to the Katana series.

But first... Servus @rumlyne! I bin a a Wiena ;)


Have no fear, Katana60 (classic) is here
I have not been idle during this time. I've been in communication with David @candykeys - he wants to get a second round of Katana60 PCBs in stock as soon as possible - I have developed a Katana60 rev 2 PCB, that was the quickest route to getting a version of the Katana layout in stock. It has the same layout support as the original run (so it matches the beautiful plates he already has in stock from the first run) with the added addition of a 7u bottom row option (not compatible with the plate).

Show Image


An order will be placed very soon. I'll probably post something here about that. David has been building connections with overseas sellers so some of the non-EU buyers will have some alternative stores to choose from, thank you David.


What about the new layouts discussed here?
Firstly, I want to focus on what is currently known as the Tsuka60 layout. The Katana60 supports a wide variety of sets, cases and bottom rows, but all those bottom rows complicate it. I want to be free of those constraints and focus on aesthetics in two main ways:
  • Symmetrical bottom rows
  • 100% correct row profile

The first is easily achieved by dropping support for the many esoteric complete keysets that was one goal of the original. We'll pick a handful of bottom rows that are symmetrical and do not interfere with one another.

As for the second point, unfortunately Katana60 is not popular enough on it's own to influence IC and GB planners to include the required keycaps in their '40s + ortho' addon kits. Until such a time that it is, I want to focus my next PCB on something that can have 100% correct row profile without hunting around for crazy rare keycaps (r3 1.25u, I'm looking at you).

This means that I will continue working on the Tsuka variants (the bottom rows I posted recently still apply), but I will not work on any classic Katana60 based layouts in new boards until further notice.

I expect prototyping of the Tsuka to be complete by the end of this month (October) once that's done I'll run a GB for the PCBs. I prefer plateless builds these days, they produce lighter boards and I don't have to commit to one specific bottom row. I can make plate files available for those who wish to get their own cut.

These are great news! I've been waiting for a rev 2 for a while and this would be a treat to try out. Do you have a ballpark pricing for this? Also what USB connector will the PCB use?
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline RominRonin

  • Thread Starter
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 04:38:12 »
The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

Pricing will be announced by CandyKeys as soon as they get a quote.

Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 05:45:03 »
The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

Pricing will be announced by CandyKeys as soon as they get a quote.

Thanks for the info! Can't wait! If anyone is interested I'd be fine with doing a small acrylic plate GB for Rev2. I had an idea that given there's 3-4 bottom row options (depends how you count them), I'd be fine with doing semi-fixed plates for all of them not a single one-fits-all.
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 184
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 05:52:33 »
that is cool

I also plan to do a GB for a case and also a case for katana60 from damascus steel.
The layouts here are for hhkb, I will make katana60 layouts soon




The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

Pricing will be announced by CandyKeys as soon as they get a quote.

Thanks for the info! Can't wait! If anyone is interested I'd be fine with doing a small acrylic plate GB for Rev2. I had an idea that given there's 3-4 bottom row options (depends how you count them), I'd be fine with doing semi-fixed plates for all of them not a single one-fits-all.
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2019, 05:56:40 by voight-kampff »

Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 05:57:17 »
that is cool

I also plan to do a GB for a case and also a case for katana60 from damascus steel.

Those renders are trippy.

My thought was just regular plates for 60 tray mount cases.
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline RominRonin

  • Thread Starter
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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 08:56:24 »
that is cool

I also plan to do a GB for a case and also a case for katana60 from damascus steel.
The layouts here are for hhkb, I will make katana60 layouts soon




The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

Pricing will be announced by CandyKeys as soon as they get a quote.

Thanks for the info! Can't wait! If anyone is interested I'd be fine with doing a small acrylic plate GB for Rev2. I had an idea that given there's 3-4 bottom row options (depends how you count them), I'd be fine with doing semi-fixed plates for all of them not a single one-fits-all.

I really like the idea of a Katana60 case with a HHKB style case, if the price is not too much I might be in!

Offline Sedula

  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 12:26:15 »
The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

It seems a shame to do the work of updating everything else but stick it with a connector that's deprecated across all modern USB standards and getting ever-more dated. Is there anything we could do to entice you to update it to USB-C?

Offline funderburker

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 14:53:34 »
The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

It seems a shame to do the work of updating everything else but stick it with a connector that's deprecated across all modern USB standards and getting ever-more dated. Is there anything we could do to entice you to update it to USB-C?

Keyboards are dumb input devices. It doesn't benefit at all from the connector it uses. Yes, I agree that it's a bit out-dated but it's been a well established standard in the community for years and it's not like it'll be gone soon anyway. Why should you exclude people that own cases that aren't USB-C compatible? There's a lot more boards that uses Mini USB and that USB cutout isn't designed for USB-C dimensions.

Edit: I'm not against USB-C in general but I believe that something like Katana60 Rev.2 that is a niche product in the community in itself is best suited to be made as compatible as possible. New comers like you, Sedula, might own a 60% case that has a USB-C but for others they're not willing to buy a new case just to try this layout out. It's a bigger commitment and in the end more people decide against trying because they wouldn't be willing to shell out $88 for a Tofu case + PCB + plate.
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2019, 14:58:00 by funderburker »
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline Sedula

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 16:05:12 »
I'm not against USB-C in general but I believe that something like Katana60 Rev.2 that is a niche product in the community in itself is best suited to be made as compatible as possible. New comers like you, Sedula, might own a 60% case that has a USB-C but for others they're not willing to buy a new case just to try this layout out. It's a bigger commitment and in the end more people decide against trying because they wouldn't be willing to shell out $88 for a Tofu case + PCB + plate.

I understand the concerns, and obviously a keyboard PCB doesn't need the increased data xfer rate, but that doesn't change the fact that micro-USB has already been deprecated for five years, and time will only keep ticking up from there. It's not like USB-C is some flashy new standard; and the latest USB4 is backwards compatible through 2.0, but I don't think it's entirely out of line to assume that at some point we're going to hit a standard that's not. USB-C is also reversible and likely physically more durable.

Nor does this strike me as the sort of design that people are going to be wishy-washy about, that having to pick up a new case (if they don't already have anything that fits USB-C) would be a dealbreaker. You're right that it's niche—but the very fact that it's niche means that while overall demand may be low, the individual commitment will be high. And the sort of person who'd pick up the odd PCB on a whim is also the sort of person nearly guaranteed to have at least one USB-C compatible case to broaden their options.

That said, if USB-C would be a dealbreaker for anyone, I'm sure they'd speak up if RominRonin ever started seriously considering it. (And if your concern is that you yourself don't have a USB-C-compatible case, by all means please say so.) Micro-USB prooooobably wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but I won't be happy about it, and I'm sure I'm not the only person an older style of USB socket would potentially alienate.
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2019, 18:20:55 by Sedula »

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 16:09:10 »
Personally, I am not a fan of the common 60% design where the USB port is on the main PCB and the keyboard is high and has some inclination. The height and angle just puts strain on the USB port and plug. Also, I think that a USB C port sunken inside a wide hole in a thick frame looks bad.

If this is through-hole USB mini, then it would be possible (case modding/building skills permitted) to substitute it with a wires to a USB C breakout-board that is entirely flat against the desk, located either so that the port is flush with the case wall or underneath the PCB.
If the PCB does get modded to get USB Type C, then please also add a USB breakout header!
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2019, 16:13:27 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline TheAutoManCan

  • Posts: 67
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 18:14:44 »
Well I'm certainly not new to this hobby but I will say that I am disappointed that the rev2 won't use USB-C. Not saying it's a complete deal breaker, but I do think it would have been a positive change.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 02:03:16 »
Some interesting comments that have made me reflect on the input devices I use on a daily basis at home and at work.

I am not against USB-C in general, but when I look at the Katana60 concept I am reminded that it was originally intended to pair with an existing 60% case, so buyers could choose from a wide variety of options or maybe even use an existing case. I think I am right in say that most 60% cases were designed with Pok3r compatibility in mind. The Pok3r has a USB mini interface, and so it the idea was simply that users would have an existing cable they can plug into their Katana60. This re-stocking of the rev 2 Katana60 will have a USB mini port. I hope that does not disappoint too many of you :-[



While we are discussing USB C ports, I think my Tex Yoda 2 has the right design idea, look at this beauty:



Justin @tex sure has an eye for aesthetics. I am no case designer, but if I could find the right partner to expand the Tsuka concept to INCLUDE a case with the PCB, then this is how I would want the port to look.

Incidentally, I realised during the PCB design process that the Tsuka layout has a couple of switches that overlap with the standard 60% mounting posts. This is no big deal, the Katana60 has a single switch that overlaps with a mounting post - this can be overcome with a simple switch mod.

However the Tsuka has additional overlapping points, which makes me more inclined to go down the path of creating a custom case for it too. I have already been speaking to someone about case design possibilities, if we can reach an agreement then I will provide more details here.

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 184
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 05:38:09 »
would be cool.
I made a render with your layout

227539-0

that is cool

I also plan to do a GB for a case and also a case for katana60 from damascus steel.
The layouts here are for hhkb, I will make katana60 layouts soon




The Katana60 rev2 will have a USB mini connector (same as the last Katana60) - no USB C yet.

Pricing will be announced by CandyKeys as soon as they get a quote.

Thanks for the info! Can't wait! If anyone is interested I'd be fine with doing a small acrylic plate GB for Rev2. I had an idea that given there's 3-4 bottom row options (depends how you count them), I'd be fine with doing semi-fixed plates for all of them not a single one-fits-all.

I really like the idea of a Katana60 case with a HHKB style case, if the price is not too much I might be in!

Offline Sedula

  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 12:13:35 »
I will confess that I 100% blanked that the revised layout is the Tsuka now while the tweaked reissue is what you're calling v2, which makes more sense to keep the old USB for. Does this mean you're definitely (or heavily leaning towards) USB-C for the Tsuka?

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 13:10:46 »
I will confess that I 100% blanked that the revised layout is the Tsuka now while the tweaked reissue is what you're calling v2, which makes more sense to keep the old USB for. Does this mean you're definitely (or heavily leaning towards) USB-C for the Tsuka?

In all honesty, after this exchange, I am leaning towards USB-C for the Tsuka. You have all convinced me to take the leap.

Offline Sedula

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 13:13:51 »
It feels like a good compromise: People who are strongly influenced by USB type will each have an option, and which board gets which socket makes sense.

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 184
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #75 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 04:35:15 »
I will confess that I 100% blanked that the revised layout is the Tsuka now while the tweaked reissue is what you're calling v2, which makes more sense to keep the old USB for. Does this mean you're definitely (or heavily leaning towards) USB-C for the Tsuka?

In all honesty, after this exchange, I am leaning towards USB-C for the Tsuka. You have all convinced me to take the leap.
Personally I prefer usb c but I understand that for some keyboard cases this is not suitable.
Anyway can't wait for the PCB.

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Offline coralof

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 14 October 2019, 13:40:03 »
Woohoo! I've already got a nice dark purple keycap set lined up for this board! :D

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Offline caronte0

  • Posts: 26
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 17:35:23 »
i don't know if the gb have already happened. But if not i'm interested

Offline jonowarren94

  • Posts: 42
Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 08 December 2019, 11:00:05 »
Is there anyway to be notified when these PCBs next go on sale? Would love to pick one up when the next round is there, could work great in customs that support regular 60 PCBs like brutal60, perry60 ect

Offline Sedula

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 08 December 2019, 15:15:57 »
GB should be announced in this IC thread when it happens (which it hasn't yet), at which point we'll move to the GB thread.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 09 December 2019, 13:32:57 »
The Katana60 revision 2 will not have a group buy. Instead, David at CandyKeys is supporting the project, like he did with the first round. Weíre ironing some pricing details out, and will announce very soon.

More details on the Tsuka60 to follow after that.


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Offline shakablue

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 09 December 2019, 18:25:46 »
Ah so we will be able to purchase the needed items from CandyKeys instead?

Will this be limited time only or limited stock only?

Looking forward to this!

Offline nuclear_wizard

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 29 December 2019, 15:42:35 »
The Katana60 revision 2 will not have a group buy. Instead, David at CandyKeys is supporting the project, like he did with the first round. Weíre ironing some pricing details out, and will announce very soon.

More details on the Tsuka60 to follow after that.


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Is there any possible way to get a US vendor in on this too?

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Offline Gorbon

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 05 April 2020, 17:40:57 »
I hope this project is still alive and happening. If you take suggestions, Iíd like to offer this for a bottom layout.

239367-0

I think it has some merits:
  • Placing the extra key to the left of the right Shift, allows for a standard arrow cluster, as well as an extra key accessible with the right pinky. The thumb Shift should make up for the less convenient right Shift.
  • The 1.5u sized thumb bars (inverted tab/backslash keys) for Space/Backspace, should be OK. The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard only has slightly larger thumb bars (1.75u) and I havenít read any complaints about their size in reviews.
  • Dual and easily accessible ĎFní keys. Under macOS one would be for the keyboard (wouldnít send a keycode), the other would send ĎFní (e.g. pressing both Fn keys + 3 would send ďmission_controlĒ).
  • No stabilisers (yay!)
  • No hard to find keycaps (sets with 7u spacebars should cover this)

Finally, I think that slapping a 7u spacebar into a well thought-out and ergonomically focused layout, is equivalent to this:

More
239369-1
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 April 2020, 08:21:20 by Gorbon »

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 13:08:00 »
Haha, great shoes, where do I sign up? ;)

A brief update to the PCB layout

The recent lock down has afforded me time for continuing the Tsuka60 project. I love my 7u mixed bottom row, with modifiers on the left and the arrow keys on the right. That layout is staying.

But I also built a prototype with a split bottom row, namely the 2.75u/2u/2.75u alternative, here it is:



I've been using this board for a few days now and I love it. I definitely missing having the arrow keys on the bottom-right, but it hasn't got in the way (especially since, with QMK, I can access the arrows on a function layer).

Much as I enjoy the split space bar options, I think they can be improved. Take a look at the board with my hand in the home row (neutral) position:



In the neutral position, my thumb sits on the edge of the left space key. With a stabiliser, the key feels great despite typing at the edge. From this neutral position, the centre key is within easy reach: all I need to do is extend my thumb:



When I contract my thumb however, it is still on the 2.75u key:



The modifiers are at the edges of the board, reaching them with this split bottom row is about the same effort as reaching them with the 7u bottom row, but by splitting that 2.75u key and adjusting the position slightly, I can accommodate closer modifiers AND some arrow keys. Here's how I want to change the supported layouts for the PCB - take a look at the 3rd and 4th bottom row alternatives, they're new:



So to summarise:
  • I dropped the non-symmetrical layout (and bottom row)
  • I added two additional bottom row options

The 4th bottom row alternative is where I split the big keys and moved them further in, adding extra keys in reach of the thumb.

The 3rd bottom row alternative is 2.75u/1.5u/2.75u, it keeps the big thumb keys and allows a row of arrow keys to the right - this bottom row is intended to support an ALPS based Tsuka60 with AEK II keycaps.


What about a GB?

I've really enjoyed using the prototypes, and having recently finished a long term project of mine, I find myself with more time to devote to getting this off the ground.

With the dropping of the non-symmetrical layout and the updated bottom rows, I want to order and test (at least) one more prototype before calling the PCB ready. I really want to test the next prototype with ALPS switches and AEK II keycaps, to make sure that option is supported.

But when that PCB is declared ready, what will the next steps be? This thread has existed for a long time now, and some of you may have changed your minds about the Tsuka60. So I intend on checking the numbers once again before deciding how to run the GB. I have noticed that there is a lot of interest in USA, so I will try to reach out to potential partners with a foothold out there.

Offline Sedula

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 14:51:38 »
I have noticed that there is a lot of interest in USA, so I will try to reach out to potential partners with a foothold out there.

Yes, please!

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #86 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 15:30:58 »
So to summarise:

    I dropped the non-symmetrical layout (and bottom row)
    I added two additional bottom row options

The 4th bottom row alternative is where I split the big keys and moved them further in, adding extra keys in reach of the thumb.

The 3rd bottom row alternative is 2.75u/1.5u/2.75u, it keeps the big thumb keys and allows a row of arrow keys to the right - this bottom row is intended to support an ALPS based Tsuka60 with AEK II keycaps.

First of all big congrats on your album!

From what I see, neither the default, nor any of the alternative layouts can be covered with a single and easily available/inexpensive keycap set (that R3 1.5u will also be very hard to find in the correct profile). If I remember correctly, this was one of the main considerations for the original Katana60.

I think that the price of absolute symmetry, could be quite high (literally) and I don't think that it offers any significant ergonomic benefits, but I understand its appeal.

P.S.: That 2.75u space bar begs to be split to 1u 'Fn' + 1.75u 'Space'

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 20:18:21 »
So to summarise:

    I dropped the non-symmetrical layout (and bottom row)
    I added two additional bottom row options

The 4th bottom row alternative is where I split the big keys and moved them further in, adding extra keys in reach of the thumb.

The 3rd bottom row alternative is 2.75u/1.5u/2.75u, it keeps the big thumb keys and allows a row of arrow keys to the right - this bottom row is intended to support an ALPS based Tsuka60 with AEK II keycaps.

First of all big congrats on your album!

From what I see, neither the default, nor any of the alternative layouts can be covered with a single and easily available/inexpensive keycap set (that R3 1.5u will also be very hard to find in the correct profile). If I remember correctly, this was one of the main considerations for the original Katana60.

I think that the price of absolute symmetry, could be quite high (literally) and I don't think that it offers any significant ergonomic benefits, but I understand its appeal.

P.S.: That 2.75u space bar begs to be split to 1u 'Fn' + 1.75u 'Space'

Thanks!

You raised some good points. I definitely wanted prioritise aesthetics with the Tsuka60 more than I did with the Katana60, so I didnít specifically try to support a single standard keycap set.

However, even a gmk base set has enough keycaps to cover the 7u bottom row variant, thanks to the support of the stepped caps lock key (most gmk bases sets provide a second caps lock key, sometimes even a third, with the Ďcontrolí legend).

The above gmk Dolch set has very limited compatibility options, yet I still managed to cover the board, with all but one key in the correct row profile (the tab key in the centre).

The 4th alternative bottom row is a little more tricky, especially if you value correct row profiles. In this case most standard ortho kits will suffice.

The 2x 2.75u bottom rows would be supported with the addition of a split space bar kit.

I specifically avoided using 1.75u keys on the bottom row. Firstly, row 4 1.75u keys are not uncommon (so are hard to get a hold of). The other reason is that Iím using to the 1.75u keys in the intended home row.

So I have thought about compatibility, with just a base gmk set, you have several options to cover your board, at most you need one to support all the bottom rows, and if you want more correct legends, you could pick up a 40s kit and/or some novelties.

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 15 April 2020, 06:33:04 »
Thanks!

You raised some good points. I definitely wanted prioritise aesthetics with the Tsuka60 more than I did with the Katana60, so I didnít specifically try to support a single standard keycap set.

However, even a gmk base set has enough keycaps to cover the 7u bottom row variant, thanks to the support of the stepped caps lock key (most gmk bases sets provide a second caps lock key, sometimes even a third, with the Ďcontrolí legend).

First of all don't get me wrong, I love this forward symmetric stagger layout and I've been tinkering with something similar for a personal project. I think that this is how keyboards should've been designed from the first typewriters onwards, and although I've seen some early attempts in such typewriters by Rheinmetall, unfortunately they didn't catch on.

239923-0

But, such a layout cannot really appeal neither to most regular users, since investing time to learn a new layout is not worth it if you don't type all that much (see e.g. what Taeha says, as he struggles to type on it https://youtu.be/nvsr6pg7Jd8?t=5210), nor to ergo fans, who will mostly see it as an awkward compromise (see e.g. what Xah Lee wrote about it http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html).

I don't completely agree with either of them, but it is what it is and it forces it to linger in limbo between these two popular extremes.

So I believe that by prioritizing complete symmetry (within the confines of a 60% case, no less) and consequently requiring a premium/limited-run keyset or multiple keysets, it raises, unnecessarily, the bar for entry to anyone just curious to give it a try.

This of course is just my opinion and I could be entirely wrong. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Finally some thoughts about the 'Caps Lock' as 'Fn' key. I know it's popular among the Colemak community (and not only there) for activating a very useful 'Extend' layer, but 'Caps Lock' is used out of necessity and not because it's optimal. On conventional keyboards there are no other thumb-accessible keys (using left 'Alt' as 'Fn' and moving 'Alt' to 'Caps Lock' creates its own problems).

Some of the problems of 'Caps Lock' as 'Fn' are:
  • You need to twist your wrist outwards to hold it down (the very same left-hand twisting problem that the symmetric stagger layout was designed to solve)
  • Depending on your hand size, it makes the 7th column keys (5, T, G, B), either uncomfortable or very hard to reach.
  • You overload your weakest finger with key chords
An extra thumb-operated 'Fn' key, between 'Alt' and 'Space' (there's unused space there), solves all of the above.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 April 2020, 11:05:24 by Gorbon »

Offline equalunique

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #89 on: Thu, 16 April 2020, 19:22:04 »
I like that this V2 PCB has the option for a fully symmetric layout.

Offline Wereweeb

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #90 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 08:55:11 »
Apparently, I'm the second person to make a GH account to comment on this, following Gorbon's lead.

Greetings folks! I won't newbie rant, but that's what I am, so take my words with a few metric tons of salt. I've also just chugged a jar's worth of coffee, so pick up some more of that salt, for travel.

To me your layout looks like a great fusion of the familiarity of a 60% and some important ergonomic and compactation features. More specifically, it has almost everything I've been looking for in a layout - including a better key arrangement, a better use of the keyboard's center (Even if it seems like whole-plain layouts can really only go so far), the choice of a symmetric and compact alphanumeric zone (No extra row of keys for the right pinky!), amongst other stuff I probably forgot about that your layout addresses well.

Oh, and yeah, ease of carry&use. Shout out to the people who think everyone should have a five-part split keyboard including dedicated numpad and macropad. Thank y'all for your opinions on what keyboard is and isn't ergonomic. However, not everyone is a programmer who sits on the same desk for 12 hours a day.

I do have some very minor problems with it, such as the short shift (I'm a more shift-y person myself). But the only thing which could really drive me away from the layout is the traditional 60% spacebar and it's split variations, result of the layout's attempt not to deviate too far from your typical 60%. However, thanks to my country's amazing importation fees&taxes, that won't be a problem: even if I wanted a pure Katana60, I'd have to hand-wire it anyway! That, or sell my kidney.

Besides this meaning that I'll have to support this project by bumping it's thread with jokes that will make you die inside, I'm also not limited by my ability to convince you into doing an 180ļ turn on the many years of work you put into this, and I've started raising my own personal draft which clearly has the eyes of Ergodox the milkman:

* peixeira60-ergo.svg (45.48 kB - downloaded 15 times.)
* peixeira60tao-ergo.svg (45.43 kB - downloaded 11 times.)

BTW @Gorbon, this baby chimera also solves (In some manner) your problem with the Caps-as-Fn key: just make the Enter another Fn key. I'm planning on putting the Enter function in a layer under the left spacebar key, provided that's possible.

.

Thank you for the inspiration, RominRonin, and I hope this project goes well. If there's a layout which deserves to be more popular, it's the Katana60. I might even risk calling it the Colemak of physical layouts.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 April 2020, 09:04:50 by Wereweeb »

Offline nasp

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 12:42:36 »
If OP doesn't pick up this project, there are similar projects that should be available soon from Worldspawn, except he's doing it on sub 60% boards. I believe PCBs are done and when he starts the GB he'll even have acrylic case options available.

Offline shakablue

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 22:19:42 »
Regarding Worldspawn's GB, will he post here on GH or somewhere else?

Offline nasp

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Re: Katana60 PCB v2 Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #93 on: Sat, 18 April 2020, 02:52:59 »
Regarding Worldspawn's GB, will he post here on GH or somewhere else?

He should post here and he also has his own Discord server and Etsy store.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #94 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 14:54:11 »
If OP doesn't pick up this project, there are similar projects that should be available soon from Worldspawn, except he's doing it on sub 60% boards. I believe PCBs are done and when he starts the GB he'll even have acrylic case options available.

Regarding Worldspawn's GB, will he post here on GH or somewhere else?
He should post here and he also has his own Discord server and Etsy store.

For his range of symmetrical stagger boards, Worldspawn has his own discord server here: https://discord.gg/WBpkM8P
There's also a GH thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100535.0

Of course anyone is welcome to follow those projects too, if they like.



Now that is out of the way: @Gorbon, I can see you've done your homework, I am enjoying these discussion points!

such a layout cannot really appeal neither to most regular users, since investing time to learn a new layout is not worth it if you don't type all that much (see e.g. what Taeha says, as he struggles to type on it https://youtu.be/nvsr6pg7Jd8?t=5210), nor to ergo fans, who will mostly see it as an awkward compromise (see e.g. what Xah Lee wrote about it http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html).

I don't completely agree with either of them, but it is what it is and it forces it to linger in limbo between these two popular extremes.

You definitely can't please them all, thankfully I don't have to.
While I don't expect Katana60, Tsuka60 or similar layouts to be more than a niche interest within a niche interest, there are some die-hards of this symmetrical stagger layouts. That is who the Katana60 and Tsuka60 are for. I don't imagine we'll ever enjoy the popularity of the Planck or the Let's Split for example, but popularity is genuinely not what motivates me to continue with these boards.


I definitely wanted prioritise aesthetics with the Tsuka60 more than I did with the Katana60, so I didnít specifically try to support a single standard keycap set.

However, even a gmk base set has enough keycaps to cover the 7u bottom row variant

I believe that by prioritizing complete symmetry (within the confines of a 60% case, no less) and consequently requiring a premium/limited-run keyset or multiple keysets, it raises, unnecessarily, the bar for entry to anyone just curious to give it a try.


Just to make it clear, although single set support was not a priority in the design of the Tsuka60, that does not mean the Tsuka60 requires extra kits to fill your board. Take a look at the supported bottom rows (that last one is new, at the request of the colemak forum users):



I own an early GMK Dolch set, which you'll notice has poor general compatibility. Even so, this set supports 3 out of the 6 alternative bottom rows, two of them with the correct row profiles, and one of those is arguably the MOST ergonomic design (that last one one).

If aesthetical considerations such as correct row compatibility and more accurate legends are important to you, you have the choice of spending more on various add-on kits to improve those factors, but you don't have to - just as with the Katana60.


Finally some thoughts about the 'Caps Lock' as 'Fn' key. I know it's popular among the Colemak community (and not only there) for activating a very useful 'Extend' layer, but 'Caps Lock' is used out of necessity and not because it's optimal. On conventional keyboards there are no other thumb-accessible keys (using left 'Alt' as 'Fn' and moving 'Alt' to 'Caps Lock' creates its own problems).

Some of the problems of 'Caps Lock' as 'Fn' are:
  • You need to twist your wrist outwards to hold it down (the very same left-hand twisting problem that the symmetric stagger layout was designed to solve)
  • Depending on your hand size, it makes the 7th column keys (5, T, G, B), either uncomfortable or very hard to reach.
  • You overload your weakest finger with key chords
An extra thumb-operated 'Fn' key, between 'Alt' and 'Space' (there's unused space there), solves all of the above.

Firstly, from my own experience, I never experienced any of those problems in your list, so I have to disagree with you here.

However, while I personally haven't experienced these issues, they are nevertheless legitimate concerns. This feedback, combined with similar concerns raised in the Colemak Forum led me to adding that new bottom row to the latest prototype: it splits the space bar further, providing many more keys within reach of your thumb. Just because I currently have a thing for 7u space bars, doesn't mean that other adopters of the Tsuka60 have to 'suffer' without multiple thumb keys options ;)

In fact, when I get the next prototype in, I intend on making an AEK II board with that new bottom row, with Matias Alps I ordered ages ago, here they are, ready and waiting:





Oh, and yeah, ease of carry&use

This was the thinking behind supporting 60% cases, the ease of adjusting on a desk, the ease of carrying the board and relocating desks - the variety of available cases to choose from was also a big consideration.


not everyone is a programmer who sits on the same desk for 12 hours a day.

Funnily enough, I AM a programmer who spends long days at the same desk (especially since lock-down) - with my Katana60 or Tsuka60 boards, of course!

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 09:07:12 »
You definitely can't please them all, thankfully I don't have to.
While I don't expect Katana60, Tsuka60 or similar layouts to be more than a niche interest within a niche interest, there are some die-hards of this symmetrical stagger layouts. That is who the Katana60 and Tsuka60 are for. I don't imagine we'll ever enjoy the popularity of the Planck or the Let's Split for example, but popularity is genuinely not what motivates me to continue with these boards.

I agree that you canít please them all and you probably shouldnít even try, but that doesnít mean that this layout should remain a niche of a niche. It deserves to be much more popular; certainly more popular than those cramped, non-split, ortholinear keyboards, that force both of your hands to twist unnaturally (instead of just the left) and that many people have convinced themselves that are ergonomic.

However, even a gmk base set has enough keycaps to cover the 7u bottom row variant

Not all GMK base sets include 6 x 1.5u bottom row keys and I wouldnít say that GMK sets are either easy to find or inexpensive. Take for instance CandyKeys (the Katana60 vendor). All but one of the GMK sets there, are either sold-out or on pre-order and that single ISO-DE set that is available, doesnít include the required keys. Out of all of their available sets, only one (the single-profile MDA Pineapple) can cover some of your initial layouts. I also had a look over at KBDfans, but the options there, were equally very limited.

Just to make it clear, although single set support was not a priority in the design of the Tsuka60, that does not mean the Tsuka60 requires extra kits to fill your board. I own an early GMK Dolch set, which you'll notice has poor general compatibility. Even so, this set supports 3 out of the 6 alternative bottom rows, two of them with the correct row profiles

Looking at the Dolch set you linked, I donít see how you can do that. Your default layout needs 6 x 1.5u bottom row keys (this only has 4), the other alternative layouts (apart from that latest one) need either 2 x 2u, 2 x 2.75u or 2 x 3u bottom row keys and this set only has one or none of these.

Take a look at the supported bottom rows (that last one is new, at the request of the colemak forum users)Ö and is arguably the MOST ergonomic design.

Yes, this will be easy to cover, but I wouldnít call it the most ergonomic design based on the number of keys. The modifier keys should be larger, since they are at the edges and usually operated by the thumbs, and the main thumb keys at 1.25u, are probably too small to be pressed effortlessly.

I also think that it would be a good idea to offer the option for a 1u key+0.5u gap in the center (that katana kanji on the PCB didnít look half bad) so you can use a proper ĎHí key there. Otherwise, and combined with the suggested bottom row layouts, youíre strongly encouraging (bordering on forcing) the wide mod and not everyone might be fan of that.

For example, something like this, has:
240501-0
  • Symmetric modifiers
  • Easy to find keys with correct profiles and mostly correct legends (most extended sets with 7u spacebars would cover this)
  • 1.75u thumb bar on the left (most extended sets include a 1.75u Shift)
  • 2.75u thumb bar on the right, which works equally well with or without a wide mod
  • Option for an inverted-T arrow cluster on the right
  • Easily thumb-accessible Fn key
  • Only one bottom-row layout that covers most bases (offering too many options often leads to choice paralysis, especially for newcomers)
I really canít see any practical or ergonomic drawbacks with something like this, apart from the fact that it doesnít uphold that fleeting ideal of perfect symmetry. But since the name you chose comes from Japan, it does uphold the Japanese aesthetics view of Wabi-Sabi, i.e. the acceptance of imperfection and finding beauty in asymmetry.  :)

I know that we both have strong opinions on this and Iím not going to convince you. Iím just thinking out loud and although I might sound like I'm trying to rain on your parade, I promise that I'm on your side.

Show Image

What a stunning shot! I love it!
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 April 2020, 10:47:44 by Gorbon »

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #96 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 03:40:22 »
I'm liking both the V2 and Tsuka versions a lot and am beginning to lean towards the symmetrical 2.75u split space bars.  Honestly, I'm into either of these layouts.


Just to make it clear, although single set support was not a priority in the design of the Tsuka60, that does not mean the Tsuka60 requires extra kits to fill your board. I own an early GMK Dolch set, which you'll notice has poor general compatibility. Even so, this set supports 3 out of the 6 alternative bottom rows, two of them with the correct row profiles

Looking at the Dolch set you linked, I donít see how you can do that. Your default layout needs 6 x 1.5u bottom row keys (this only has 4), the other alternative layouts (apart from that latest one) need either 2 x 2u, 2 x 2.75u or 2 x 3u bottom row keys and this set only has one or none of these.

Ah, then to add further clarification, when you use the 4 arrow keys on the right of the 7u space bar, you only need 4x 1.5u keys with the bottom row profile.

and if you really wanted the 6x 1.5u layout option, there are 2 extra 1.5u keys (tab and \|), albeit not all in the correct profile.

All I'm saying is, just like the Katana60, you have options to cover the board with a single set.

I didn't want to limit the aesthetics based on compatibility with a single keyset, like I did with the Katana60, but compatibility is still there.



Take a look at the supported bottom rows (that last one is new, at the request of the colemak forum users)Ö and is arguably the MOST ergonomic design.

Yes, this will be easy to cover, but I wouldnít call it the most ergonomic design based on the number of keys. The modifier keys should be larger, since they are at the edges and usually operated by the thumbs, and the main thumb keys at 1.25u, are probably too small to be pressed effortlessly.

Further clarification from my side - I meant the most ergonomic of the available options. Not 'the most ergonomic possible'.

The available options are limited by overlapping switch holes and stabiliser holes. Unfortunately you can't support every bottom row because you need enough space to route the traces on the PCB, and enough holes for PCB mount switches to fit in position (not only for plateless builds).


I also think that it would be a good idea to offer the option for a 1u key+0.5u gap in the center (that katana kanji on the PCB didnít look half bad) ... I really canít see any practical or ergonomic drawbacks


I have already dropped the asymmetric alphas layout (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100468.msg2888776#msg2888776)

To recap: it only looks and functions best with an asymmetric bottom row. Unfortunately the penalty for asymmetrical bottom rows is a big limit on the symmetric bottom row options - that was the priority of this design. Sorry if that was important to you guys and gals (but I got no feedback after that post, so I assume you're all OK with it?).


I appreciate that you have strong feelings about this layout, I too want it to be more popular. So if you have the time, I encourage you to fork the project (it's on github) or start your own - I can give you some pointers if you've never designed a PCB before ;)

Offline RominRonin

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Offline greenjack

  • Posts: 3
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #98 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 03:17:22 »
RominRonin, it looks like you have spent lots oftime with a different layouts. I highly inspired with katana60 keyboard. Inspite of the fact I prefer to have an F keys.
I try to do same but with a russian, that cause some more difficulties by the reason of more letters.
Don't you ever think about russian layout?

My point is to:
1) stay in one keycap set (even cheapest one, where we have no 1.5u caps) actually the set, combined from full default ANSI set in KLE
2) try to not move the position of the russian letters in layout
3) try to stay with a right profile of caps in row

Have you any advice or what to read for? Except of looking for your keyboard and semiergo layout as well.

Offline vim_commando

  • Posts: 51
  • Location: USA, Hawai'i
    • LaserCTRL
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #99 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 14:03:20 »
241725-0
241727-1



Offline Tennstrong

  • Posts: 30
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 19:07:15 »
Would it be possible to add breakout support for gonnoc's trackpoint module? I feel like this would be nearly the perfect use case on the bottom row. https://github.com/sekigon-gonnoc/LevelConverterForTrackballModule



AFAIK it doesn't require modifications further than the breakout support as the sensor (PAW3204) can rest in a single switch slot, with the module sitting between plate and pcb.

Edit: Changelog for the choco60 to add  https://github.com/shinoaliceKabocha/choco60_track/commit/4ea73b0fdc7a779b506713fedb874a8f848d6bef#diff-ef8462a2fd19505be9b755c3d953a2bc , from what I can tell it didn't require any physical modifications, but I could be wrong

Cheers!
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 May 2020, 19:31:46 by Tennstrong »

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 12:05:47 »
RominRonin, it looks like you have spent lots oftime with a different layouts. I highly inspired with katana60 keyboard. Inspite of the fact I prefer to have an F keys.
I try to do same but with a russian, that cause some more difficulties by the reason of more letters.
Don't you ever think about russian layout?

I took a look at the Russian layout after reading your posts, it's quite complicated!

Honestly, I think the Katana60 is better suited for the Russian layout - you could make use of all those extra keys in the middle of the keyboard for the extra characters.

(Attachment Link)

Hah!

I received the switch plate from laserboost.com today, I have to solder the latest prototype up, but here is what it will look like when it's done:



I have to say I am really loving this bottom row, the thumb keys (inner option keys) are in exactly the right place, so you only need a short extension or contraction of the thumb to hit the neighbouring keys. Very nice.

Once I solder the PCB, re-test it and update the firmware, the board will basically be ready. Unless...

Would it be possible to add breakout support for gonnoc's trackpoint module? I feel like this would be nearly the perfect use case on the bottom row. https://github.com/sekigon-gonnoc/LevelConverterForTrackballModule

Show Image


AFAIK it doesn't require modifications further than the breakout support as the sensor (PAW3204) can rest in a single switch slot, with the module sitting between plate and pcb.
Show Image


Edit: Changelog for the choco60 to add  https://github.com/shinoaliceKabocha/choco60_track/commit/4ea73b0fdc7a779b506713fedb874a8f848d6bef#diff-ef8462a2fd19505be9b755c3d953a2bc , from what I can tell it didn't require any physical modifications, but I could be wrong

Cheers!


I hadn't heard of the trackpoint module, and the few websites I've found are not in English. It looks very interesting, can you please provide more information Tennstrong? Where can I buy one? Does it just fit in an MX sized hole in a switch plate? Does that potentially mean I can place a trackpoint anywhere I want (provided its wired into the controller through the pin breakouts)?

If it really is as simple as this, then I could add a quick update to the PCB before manufacturing, because quite a lot of people were interested in a trackpoint feature. But without more information, or some kind of support on integrating it, I'm hesitant to delay the Tsuka60 much further.

Offline funderburker

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #102 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 15:30:56 »
I hadn't heard of the trackpoint module, and the few websites I've found are not in English. It looks very interesting, can you please provide more information Tennstrong? Where can I buy one? Does it just fit in an MX sized hole in a switch plate? Does that potentially mean I can place a trackpoint anywhere I want (provided its wired into the controller through the pin breakouts)?

If it really is as simple as this, then I could add a quick update to the PCB before manufacturing, because quite a lot of people were interested in a trackpoint feature. But without more information, or some kind of support on integrating it, I'm hesitant to delay the Tsuka60 much further.
That'd be a treat!

My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline greenjack

  • Posts: 3
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #103 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 04:19:57 »
Quote
Honestly, I think the Katana60 is better suited for the Russian layout - you could make use of all those extra keys in the middle of the keyboard for the extra characters.

At the first look i like that square brackets on their place (cause i have there the russian letters), however after some time spent with several version of layouts, I think you're right. The llayout I would go for is mmore close to the katana 60.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #104 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 05:44:47 »
I hadn't heard of the trackpoint module, and the few websites I've found are not in English. It looks very interesting, can you please provide more information Tennstrong? Where can I buy one? Does it just fit in an MX sized hole in a switch plate? Does that potentially mean I can place a trackpoint anywhere I want (provided its wired into the controller through the pin breakouts)?

If it really is as simple as this, then I could add a quick update to the PCB before manufacturing, because quite a lot of people were interested in a trackpoint feature. But without more information, or some kind of support on integrating it, I'm hesitant to delay the Tsuka60 much further.
That'd be a treat!
Show Image


I'm strangely aroused by this gif

Offline ungarida

  • Posts: 8
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #105 on: Mon, 01 June 2020, 08:18:43 »
Hi RominRonin,
as you may remember I'm an happy Katana60 owner and really looking forward for a Tsuka60. Please let's make this happen within this horrible year, would be a wonderful good news to re-balance the year.

I was one of the trackball supporters, so I felt to spend some more time researching starting from this page:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsekigon-gonnoc%2FLevelConverterForTrackballModule

I found some interesting Twitter threads:
https://twitter.com/shinoalice_kabo/status/1254796532840189952
https://twitter.com/elfmimi/status/1241640879191805952

Which led me to this blog post which shows a bit more details on such module:
https://blog-eng.yushakobo.jp/entry/2020/04/01/151617

So I asked to https://twitter.com/_gonnoc Twitter account help, let's see if we get some attention.

Offline funderburker

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  • Posts: 1271
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Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #106 on: Mon, 01 June 2020, 08:24:40 »
Hi RominRonin,
as you may remember I'm an happy Katana60 owner and really looking forward for a Tsuka60. Please let's make this happen within this horrible year, would be a wonderful good news to re-balance the year.

I was one of the trackball supporters, so I felt to spend some more time researching starting from this page:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsekigon-gonnoc%2FLevelConverterForTrackballModule

I found some interesting Twitter threads:
https://twitter.com/shinoalice_kabo/status/1254796532840189952
https://twitter.com/elfmimi/status/1241640879191805952

Which led me to this blog post which shows a bit more details on such module:
https://blog-eng.yushakobo.jp/entry/2020/04/01/151617

So I asked to https://twitter.com/_gonnoc Twitter account help, let's see if we get some attention.

That's great collection of resources! Thank you, my friend!
My boards: LAGOM 🐸-T | TMO50 FE | prototype TMOv2 | production TMOv2

Offline ungarida

  • Posts: 8
Re: Tsuka60 - the Katana60 v2 PCB Interest Check [IC]
« Reply #107 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 05:36:56 »
This is the online shop https://yushakobo.jp/shop/adtb7m/ where it is available at the cost of ~20EUR ... plus shipment from Japan which does not sound really cheap.