graphics cards

[chimera15]

So I'm thinking of building a new i7.  I think I've figured out most of my components.

pny xlr8 9800gt 1gb x2 $170
X58B-A3 SLI $145
Corsair XMS3 4gb DDR3 $100
intel i7 quad core i7-920 i7 920 1366 2.66/8m/4.8 CPU $240

OCZ OCZSSD2-1VTX60G 60GB SATA SSD solid state drive $135

500gb hd $50



The main problem I have is that I haven't built a system for a year or two, and the graphics cards out now are kinda confusing me.  Like I know some of the 800 series were renamed gtx 200's and such, and are really just junk.  There's also new cards like the Palit GTX 460, with gddr5 memory.  Is that way better than the 9800gt?  The 9800gt always seemed like the industry standard, but is there better bang for the buck now?

I can get two 9800gts for around $160-170 and sli them, is there any single card that can beat that arrangement out now for around the same price?

[vyshane]

Maybe this could help?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-the-200-king

[ch_123]

The GTX 460 is probably the card to get at the moment.

[microsoft windows]

I can hook you up with an original I3D Voodoo.

[gr1m]

Don't SLI two 9800GTs. SLIing two bad cards isn't a good idea. The GTX 460 appears to be promising but I don't think anyone should buy it until the 1GB version is available for $200 or less. If you're willing to buy two 9800GTs, you can buy a 5850 for cheaper than two would cost you and get basically the best card on the market, all factors included (power consumption, yada yada).

I'm wary of that motherboard. I'd rather buy a better one but they stopped making all the good X58 boards (Bloodrage anyone).
I would buy the 5850 at a $250 price point but apparently that's not the retail price right now:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102884&cm_re=5850-_-14-102-884-_-Product

If you can get one for $250 in any way possible, that's the best buy for your money.

[D-EJ915]

If heat or power matters to you the new ATi chips use a LOT less power than nVidia ones.

[ch_123]

The GTX 460 compares favorably to ATI's latest and greatest in terms of power consumption.

Also, I never really trusted ATI's driver. I keep hearing enough horror stories about them to keep me at bay.

[microsoft windows]

If heat or power matters to you the new ATi chips use a LOT less power than nVidia ones.

And old video cards from companies that don't exist anymore use even less power.

[gr1m]

Also, I never really trusted ATI's driver stories.

Yeah, I don't trust the stories either because I've had no problems with ATI drivers.

[ch_123]

Well, their Linux ones suck for sure.

[gr1m]

Besides, a 5850 at full load still consumes considerably less power than a GTX 460 (and outstrips it hands down performance-wise). The only reason the GTX 460 is deemed a success in terms of power consumption is because it doesn't suck as much as the other Nvidia cards, and not because it's better than the ATI ones.

[audioave10]

Besides, a 5850 at full load still consumes considerably less power than a GTX 460 (and outstrips it hands down performance-wise). The only reason the GTX 460 is deemed a success in terms of power consumption is because it doesn't suck as much as the other Nvidia cards, and not because it's better than the ATI ones.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf104-fermi,2684-14.html


One or two watts is considerable? Kishy, do some research for yourself as brand loyalty causes the most fanboyism with video cards as I've ever seen. I've got the Nvidia GTX 260, GTX 275, and the GTX 470. Because Nvidia's CEO is such a **** (and he is), there is much hatred towards Nvidia. The cards are fine and mine don't run hot although I know how to set them up correctly. The drivers are great and make a difference.
Its absolutely true that the current ATI/AMD cards are great and are more effecient, however their driver team is tiny compared to Nvidias. I read almost all forums with video cards and there is quite a battle between both VC makers.
ATI has some severe driver problems with certain games and especially with Crossfire & Eyefinity. The forums show this alot. I have owned many of both and would have liked to have bought an ATI this last year but (for ME) the driver problems effected the type of games I was interested in. This may not at all be an issue for you. I could easily recommend either card depending on how big you wanted to go. I'm not fanboyish at all. I just tell people that the Nvidias are not the junk as seems to be advertised. I LIKE ATI too.

[gr1m]

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2010/07/12/nvidia-geforce-gtx-460-graphics-card-review/11

33W in that review. Power consumption differs according to the tests done. Your bad experience with ATI doesn't make ATI **** and my good experience with ATI doesn't make ATI amazing. Besides, are you forgetting that recent batch of Nvidia drivers that was killing cards? Crawl out of Huang's butthole and take a look around.

[EverythingIBM]

I have a Savage S3 AGP card, made by diamond. I think it's 12 MB! That's enough to do anything really, you can browse the internet, use paintbrush, check emails, play a few SVGA games here and there.

[audioave10]

All, as usual, fully blown out of proportion. You didn't even read it all. I have not had a bad time with an ATI card. I just chose not to have the driver problems with "certain" games. Please grow up a little...I also said the guy WAS a ****. But, you know what? He doesn't make the cards himself.

[audioave10]

All, as usual, fully blown out of proportion. You didn't even read it all. I have not had a bad time with an ATI card. I just chose not to have the driver problems with "certain" games. Please grow up a little...I also said the guy WAS a ****. But, you know what? He doesn't make the cards himself.
Remember, I actually have owned these cards...you have NOT.
 What makes you an expert?

[ch_123]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf104-fermi,2684-14.html


One or two watts is considerable? Kishy, do some research for yourself as brand loyalty causes the most fanboyism with video cards as I've ever seen. I've got the Nvidia GTX 260, GTX 275, and the GTX 470. Because Nvidia's CEO is such a **** (and he is), there is much hatred towards Nvidia. The cards are fine and mine don't run hot although I know how to set them up correctly. The drivers are great and make a difference.
Its absolutely true that the current ATI/AMD cards are great and are more effecient, however their driver team is tiny compared to Nvidias. I read almost all forums with video cards and there is quite a battle between both VC makers.
ATI has some severe driver problems with certain games and especially with Crossfire & Eyefinity. The forums show this alot. I have owned many of both and would have liked to have bought an ATI this last year but (for ME) the driver problems effected the type of games I was interested in. This may not at all be an issue for you. I could easily recommend either card depending on how big you wanted to go. I'm not fanboyish at all. I just tell people that the Nvidias are not the junk as seems to be advertised. I LIKE ATI too.

In fairness, in the year Vista came out, 30% of all BSODs reported to MS were caused by the nVidia driver failing.

My pro-nVidia stance is largely based on nVidia's superior driver support for non-Windows operating systems. But I have heard that ATI's drivers for Windows are pretty good by this stage.

[gr1m]

An expert? I just called you out for being blind to the fact that Nvidia had some massive driver ****ups just recently. Don't hate.

[audioave10]

My post was an answer to gr1m only.
Where you said my head was at was hatred itself.

[gr1m]

It wasn't meant as an insult. I was trying to think of a dark, enclosed, isolated pro-Nvidia location and there's no place better than the CEO's butthole.

[Phaedrus2129]

The GTX460 appears to be the best bang for the buck right now, if you want cheaper get a Radeon 5770, if you want more expensive get a 5850 or 5870.

[williamjoseph]

I use the 4870x2. i wanna nother one so my rig is maxed out for gpu's. but the next gen is the ati-hd 5970

[EverythingIBM]

I use the 4870x2. i wanna nother one so my rig is maxed out for gpu's. but the next gen is the ati-hd 5970

Voodoo no like...

[chimera15]

Don't SLI two 9800GTs. SLIing two bad cards isn't a good idea. The GTX 460 appears to be promising but I don't think anyone should buy it until the 1GB version is available for $200 or less. If you're willing to buy two 9800GTs, you can buy a 5850 for cheaper than two would cost you and get basically the best card on the market, all factors included (power consumption, yada yada).

I'm wary of that motherboard. I'd rather buy a better one but they stopped making all the good X58 boards (Bloodrage anyone).
I would buy the 5850 at a $250 price point but apparently that's not the retail price right now:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102884&cm_re=5850-_-14-102-884-_-Product

If you can get one for $250 in any way possible, that's the best buy for your money.

I like ecs's motherboards.  I have 2 systems built on older slit-a 570 nforce boards which were one of the first sli boards available that everyone hated on, and picked up cheap, probably because the pci slots were only x8's, but for the price they've been really stable after driver revisions, since they were one of the first chipsets they had a lot of problems early on, but they were also one of the first ones to get fixed. They've been really stable for me for like 2 years now, and I'm all together really satisfied with them, especially for the price I paid.  Those systems are just as good playing games and whatnot as the later Asus standard gaming board I have another rig built on.  I have an 8800gt on the Asus board, and a 9800 GT on the ecs board with the lower x setting, and they benchmark almost exactly the same, with identical processors.



That ECS board is also really reasonably priced for an 1366.  Sides it's black and looks cool. lol

Does anyone have any benchmarks or know a source? So two sli'd 9800 gt's won't beat the new 460?

I'm a poor student, so I'm just looking to get a lower end 920 system right now I can play Fallout, Vegas on, and other mmofps's on  at 1080p, not some huge expensive gaming rig, since there aren't really any good games coming out for pc's anyway.

I'm pretty happy with my c2d 2.4 ghz's otherwise, although I'm getting some graphics lag from warrock at 1080p.

[chimera15]

In fairness, in the year Vista came out, 30% of all BSODs reported to MS were caused by the nVidia driver failing.

My pro-nVidia stance is largely based on nVidia's superior driver support for non-Windows operating systems. But I have heard that ATI's drivers for Windows are pretty good by this stage.

The nforce driver for Vista didn't work at all, it was a complete joke.  Nforce chipset motherboards basically couldn't run Vista for a year or two after it came out.

[EverythingIBM]

not some huge expensive gaming rig, since there aren't really any good games coming out for pc's anyway.

Bah, who needs them 3D games when you have SVGA:

[chimera15]

Hehe   Here's a crystalmark bench on an i7 2.6 clocked at 3.3 and a 460

Most of my c2d's come in around around 100-150k

http://crystalrank.info/CrystalMark/09en/ranking.php?ID=132598

Now I just need to find one running 9800's in sli. lol

[chimera15]

Bah, who needs them 3D games when you have SVGA:

I played most of those and got bored of them already, like 15-20 years ago. lol  Stonekeep brings backs some memories. lol  Hexen was fun too back then.  I thought it was so cool. lol

[chimera15]

Here's an i7 860 running a single 9800gt 512mb, not overclocked at 2.8ghz.


http://crystalrank.info/CrystalMark/09en/ranking.php?ID=132486

Still got 260k....  

860's are 1156 socket?  Those are the cheaper i7's right?

Looking at that, since the processors aren't equal, it might be close...

Here's the graphics card test for it:

19543    5204    33682

The 460
17605    15644    35617

So the middle score Directdraw fps is 3 times, otherwise it's even or less... and the 9800gt is the 512mb version the 460 is the 1gb.  That doesn't look too impressive.  Still looking for a benchmark site directly comparing them.

Oh and btw, I really don't care that much about power consumption.  I'll get a 750-1000watt powersupply for this unit either way.

Interesting thread:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eUt9gfcXAj0J:tech.slashdot.org/story/10/07/12/1428234/Nvidias-200-GTX-460-Ups-Bargain-Performance+9800gt+vs+460gtx&cd=30&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[gr1m]

Cheaper but the platform has lower memory bandwidth and multi-GPU limitations. Actually, you can get a 920 D0 for cheaper than a 930 or an 860 and it's a superior chip. I would definitely go X58.

[EverythingIBM]

I played most of those and got bored of them already, like 15-20 years ago. lol  Stonekeep brings backs some memories. lol  Hexen was fun too back then.  I thought it was so cool. lol

I'm surprised you played them to be honest! In that case, you get the MS-DOS gaming nerd award, for playing some of the best DOS games released:

EVERYONE GIVE CHIMERA A BIG APPLAUSE!

I never got to play hexen or heretic 1 (the demo of heretic 1 only). So, I still got lots of gaming ahead of me.

You know, they could easily make games in that SAME FASHION with updated graphics, it would be so amazing. But no... stupid game industry.

[chimera15]

I'm surprised you played them to be honest! In that case, you get the MS-DOS gaming nerd award, for playing some of the best DOS games released:

Show Image

EVERYONE GIVE CHIMERA A BIG APPLAUSE!

I never got to play hexen or heretic 1 (the demo of heretic 1 only). So, I still got lots of gaming ahead of me.

You know, they could easily make games in that SAME FASHION with updated graphics, it would be so amazing. But no... stupid game industry.

I've been a pretty hard core gamer for a very long time, It's why I'm almost 40 still a student and still a virgin. My first attempt at college when I was 17 I got addicted to a game, and started missing classes.  I basically flushed an ivy league education and a great life down the drain cause of a stupid $50 game. lol

But then again, I might have ended up at Enron like my best friend did and wound up almost exactly where I am or worse too. lol

[Phaedrus2129]

Consult me before buying a power supply. I am like Kishy, Ripster, and Ricercar rolled into one, only for power supplies.

[chimera15]

Consult me before buying a power supply. I am like Kishy, Ripster, and Ricercar rolled into one, only for power supplies.

"http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocketfish-900-Watt-ATX-CPU-Power-Supply-RF-900WPS-/110560225479?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Other_MP3_Player_Accessories&hash=item19bde728c7

?

Quick search.  Looks like a nice one to me, modular too.

[Phaedrus2129]

A.) Ebay = no
B.) Open box = meh
C.) Not that great a power supply, though not as bad as some of BB's other in-house PSUs (Dynex and early Rocketfish). The X7 is one of Huntkey's better products, but I still don't feel I can recommend it, especially open box on ebay.

By the way, it seems he sells a lot of stuff from Best Buy, and for significantly below even the employee discount price (cost+ 5/10%). I'm guessing he steals from BB and lists the stuff on ebay. Problem with that is if you need it replaced and bring it in, it'll be registered as stolen (via. UPC). So double bad there.


You only need a decent 400W power supply for your system (even with the GTX460), and I highly recommend a quality 400W over a cheap 900-1000W.

[gr1m]

Seasonic X650 $120

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=PS-SSX650G&title=SeaSonic-X650-Gold-650W-Power-Supply

$135 free shipping
-$10 with coupon code CASTLE10 //expires 7/18 but there will be a replacement code after
-3% with Bing Cashback

[gr1m]

A.) Ebay = no
B.) Open box = meh
C.) Not that great a power supply, though not as bad as some of BB's other in-house PSUs (Dynex and early Rocketfish). The X7 is one of Huntkey's better products, but I still don't feel I can recommend it, especially open box on ebay.

By the way, it seems he sells a lot of stuff from Best Buy, and for significantly below even the employee discount price (cost+ 5/10%). I'm guessing he steals from BB and lists the stuff on ebay. Problem with that is if you need it replaced and bring it in, it'll be registered as stolen (via. UPC). So double bad there.


You only need a decent 400W power supply for your system (even with the GTX460), and I highly recommend a quality 400W over a cheap 900-1000W.

Could be that he gets it from that Best Buy employee auction site thing. I got an invite to it (although it's pretty useless for a Canadian).

[chimera15]

lol I don't mistrust ebay as much as you.  There are a lot of dealers like that on ebay, and I'd never take it into a store.  It's a risk but worth it.  I tend to put a lot of drives on my systems which always bogs down power supplies.  If I go with the dual sli 9800s it probably will be pulling way over 400w during the most intensive games I would guess.  I've had lots of 750w power supplies from different sources. Never had a modular one though, always wanted one.  Really surprised to see one that low.  There's another seller with one for $80.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocketfish-RF-900WPS-900-Watt-ATX-CPU-Power-Supply-/380248388649?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item588891f429

[Phaedrus2129]

Maybe.

Still wouldn't buy.

Want something in the $50 range?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030&cm_re=Neo_ECO-_-17-371-030-_-Product

Based on an early iteration of the SeaSonic S12II Bronze 420/520/620 platform. Very good performance and reliability for its price, with a warranty backed by actual good customer service.

[gr1m]

No risk is worth it when it comes to power supplies.

[Phaedrus2129]

Drives only pull a lot of power at spinup, otherwise they're sub-10W for your typical 7200RPM SATA.


SLI 9800GTs would work on the 520W unit, you wouldn't top 400W load. Trust me, people overestimate their power draw all the time, it's the quality that matters, not the overall wattage; as long as you have enough of course.

[chimera15]

No risk is worth it when it comes to power supplies.

Power supplies are pretty durable these days.

I want something modular in the $50 range. lol

I've put together like 5-10 systems, counting laptops, from ebay parts.  Most of them very low prices and many I thought would be bad because I got such a deal,  including graphics cards I've got for super cheap.  I put my last c2d together for under or around $300 complete, and this was a year or two ago when most complete c2d systems in the same range were going for $700+  The only problems I've ever had has been cheap mobos.  They're almost always bad.

[gr1m]

So you're paying $200 for your CPU and $50 for your power supply? That's a typical mistake, like when a guitarist buys a $700 guitar and a $50 amp. You should allocate more funds to a power supply.

[chimera15]

Power supplies have been powersupplies for 2 or 3 generations of computers now.  There's not been a major upgrade to them since sata drives came out, and really even before that.  Besides there's like a billion companies manufacturing them bringing the price down. The technology of them is mature, which is why they're much cheaper.  A core i7 is only what, 6 months to a year old, the top of personal computing, so it's going to cost more.  Sides powersupplies are more susceptible to things like lightning strike than the processor or mobo.  I'm not paying $200 for a powersupply to have it electrocuted on me.

[gr1m]

"The technology of them is mature, which is why they're much cheaper."

What? And CPUs only came into existence with Core i7?

Besides, the technology has nothing to do with the price. You can get away with using cheap materials and poor engineering in power supplies because of their nature. CPUs, not so much. I don't want to start a random argument for no reason, I'm just saying that I think you should spend more than $50 on the one product that your $200 CPU, $150 motherboard, $200 video card and every other component will depend on.

[Phaedrus2129]

Power supply technology is still advancing... and many cheap companies stay behind, often intentionally. I've opened up power supplies made less than three months ago, with designs from before 2003, possibly as early as 1998. 250W units that go out of spec at 50W being sold as 500W units. Even branded units, units with what are erroneously believed to be "good" brands, based on antiquated half bridge designs or mediocre single transistor forward designs. Two transistor forward with boost converter is the standard "mature" design, but higher-end units are still advancing with resonant primary designs and DC-DC secondaries.


The Rocketfish 900W (Huntkey X7 900W) isn't horrible, Huntkey usually produces **** but they got a big loan a year ago and sank a lot of it into R&D and manufacturing. It's still not that good a unit, I wouldn't push it past 800W. You aren't pulling all that much power, true. But for the sake of a warranty (that means something) and better reliability (Huntkey is still hit and miss in the QC department) I'd get a quality unit not from ebay. And a $50 modular unit NIB is guaranteed garbage.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151093&Tpk=M12II%20520W

Now stop being a **** and pay as much for your power supply as you did for your keyboards.

[chimera15]

I haven't paid much more than $50 for most of my keyboards, not counting kitbashed ones that are really two keyboards to make one.   I definitely haven't bought any of the $200 + retail keyboards.


You really do know a lot. lol   Maybe I should jump on that used one then. lol  $50 is worth a shot for this unit and might be a good backup.  I had to use the spare I had originally planned to use to fix my mother's old machine when it's power supply gave out.  It's like an 8 year old unit, that got clogged with dust.


I should wait a little though.  I really need to get my scratchbuilt keyboard finished which may take the funds I'm thinking of using for this if I can't find an easy way to machine the plate.

I'm going to email that guy and see if he can provide any more details about like where he got it from and such. If it checks out I'll buy it, and it'll be the first part of the new system. lol

[Phaedrus2129]

Still worth spending more than $50 for a PSU.

[chimera15]

A year ago, that would have been true, but this is the second generation of sli power supplies.   These are the same power supplies you can get off an old c2d system.  You can buy broken velocity micro machines with bad mobo's from recycliers off ebay with 750w power supplies for a couple hundred with full lian li cases, and good graphics, memory and hard drives, or could a year or two ago.

 What I'm seeing is that they've really come down in price across the board.  There are tons of different types out there.  Meanwhile 920 i7's are impossible to buy for a reasonable price.

[audioave10]

Prices do seem to be coming down...(I wish RAM prices would too)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006

I hate rebates though.