Author Topic: kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations  (Read 133151 times)

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Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #200 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 16:58:15 »
Quote from: erw;507444
I tried gluing my stem fragment to an R4 with hot glue, just to test it before I considered more extreme glues. It didn't endure being pulled off again, but here's how it looked:

Not the same slope as the tall modifiers, but pretty close.

I didn't seat it fully because I wanted to be able to get the 3 mm stem piece up, so you can see a bit of the red switch stem below. But even if fully seated, an R4 with stem extension will still leave a small gap between the keycap and the case.

I like this pic, btw. f/2.8 :-)

It's out of focus, /qq! ;) Seriously though, nice shallow depth of field effect. :)

The extended R4 looks pretty good, I don't think the small gap would matter, as long as the key feels alright. Did it feel OK?


Quote from: Dox;507530
I found a few keys with the high profile of the thumb keys in my SP grab bag.
So, I'm pretty sure that SP can still do them.
Last time I ordered some non stocked keycaps from SP, I had to pay 20$ per keycap (I ordered 4 keycaps). What was for some blank PBT. Price will get lower in a group buy.
I have a Esc, F1, F2, F5, F6, F8, F9, / and Insert.
I was happy when I found those as they will probably be useful for my future ErgoDoxs!

If they can still do it (with tooling for some other keyboard maybe) I guess it would depend a lot on the price. At 4 keys per board we'd most likely need quite a few participants to achieve a good price? (don't have any experience with group buys yet)

Quote from: input nirvana;507534
The simple email answer from SP today is that they no longer have the tooling for the Kinesis Contoured line. :(

Someone, (I can't follow up properly at this time) could possibly get the info from Dox and figure out what he's got, if SP has it, and/or where that possibility may stand.

Other choices:
-We can see about removing legends from black and white key cap sets from Kinesis.
-We can find sphericals in other colors.
-We can make the missing keys in a couple months, unless someone else does it sooner.

:( Too bad, but maybe they still do similar keys for other boards, it's not like tall F keys Dox mentions could have been produced for a current Advantage. Though I guess those could have been customized with the Kinesis tooling, which would help explain the high cost.

Other than that the options you mention are available for blanks, and the stem extension would probably be required for custom engraved/etched keys.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:20:17 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Dox

  • Posts: 298
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #201 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:14:16 »
Hummm..... I think she is confusing them with the old home row spherical.

Pics:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39496[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39497[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39498[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39499[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39500[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39501[/ATTACH]
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #202 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:18:36 »
Quote from: Dox;507547
Hummm..... I think she is confusing them with the old home row spherical.

Who is she? As for home row sphericals I'm not fussed, the replacements feel good. :)

Those keys do look pretty much like what we're looking for.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:21:11 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Dox

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #203 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:23:10 »
Yeah I think that they are the same. I will confirm it when I receive sordna kinesis from the try and forward tour.

I guess that IN answer from SP came from Melissa. (never heard of anyone else there)
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #204 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:30:45 »
Quote from: Dox;507555
Yeah I think that they are the same. I will confirm it when I receive sordna kinesis from the try and forward tour.

I guess that IN answer from SP came from Melissa. (never heard of anyone else there)

Hmm, the keys you have don't seem to be any of the ones in the following chart from SP's FAQ.

Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #205 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:35:57 »
Quote from: boli;507537
It's out of focus, /qq! ;) Seriously though, nice shallow depth of field effect. :)

The extended R4 looks pretty good, I don't think the small gap would matter, as long as the key feels alright. Did it feel OK?


Thanks :-)

Yeah, it was fine. I wasn't completely relaxed when I was touching it consciously because I knew it was fragile, but I used it for some days without any issues.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Dox

  • Posts: 298
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #206 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:40:12 »
Quote from: boli;507565
Hmm, the keys you have don't seem to be any of the ones in the following chart from SP's FAQ.

Show Image
DCS row 5. What's what it is.

Edit: I measured the sloping angle and it's 6 deg too.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:43:56 by Dox »
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #207 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:45:27 »
Quote from: Dox;507574
DCS row 5. What's what it is.

Oh, that'd be a standard key then I guess. :) I thought DCS5 was the closest fit, but it didn't seem quite tall enough.

Edit:
Quote from: erw;507569
Yeah, it was fine. I wasn't completely relaxed when I was touching it consciously because I knew it was fragile, but I used it for some days without any issues.

Awesome, in that case we have hope for both original-shape blanks by SP (Dox's find) and engraved/etched customs with stem extension from WASD. ^_^
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:52:36 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #208 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:53:01 »
Does SP have the rows wrong? I thought R4 is the num row, why do they call it row 1 ?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #209 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 17:53:48 »
Quote from: input nirvana;507534
The simple email answer from SP today is that they no longer have the tooling for the Kinesis Contoured line. :(


I'm pretty sure SP auto reply "we don't have the tooling" to every inquiry.

I suspect that the SP DCS series row 5 would be a good match for the thumb modifiers. I don't have measurements, but if their diagrams are to scale this key with a a flush stem (PU) would be pretty much an exact match for the KB120 key.

Quote
-We can find sphericals in other colors.


The SP DSA series would do. Their center height is 295 mils. With SP's flush stem (PU) or slightly recessed stem (4U) they would be nearly an exact match for the KB130 and Advantage series. With the -86mil stem (6U) they'd be close to the KB120 height. With the -45mil stem (HU) they'd be in between. (The difference in height between the KB120 and later sphericals is more than a tenth of an inch.)

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #210 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:04:41 »
Yes, Melissa is who wrote the email saying they don't have the tooling.

Looks like there are some better options possibly available with smaller compromises! Yaaayyyy!!!

What. A. Hassle. For. Key. Caps.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #211 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:09:13 »
I'm still confused. Row 5 is SP's extra tall F-key row, but why do they call their num row "row 1" and the ZXCV row "row 4" ?  WASDkeyboards have R1 and R4 the other way around. Which is the correct row numbering?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline kps

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #212 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:28:06 »
Quote from: sordna;507597
Which is the correct row numbering?

According to ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 35 N WD 9995-2 2010-10-8 the correct numbering is ‘A’ for the row with the space bar, `B’ for the row with Level 2 select (or, as the hoi polloi refer to it, “shift”), and so on.

Failure to employ the correct numbering will lead to a written reprimand being placed on file in your permanent record.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 18:32:40 by kps »

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #213 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 02:29:55 »
Quote from: boli;507346
A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).

If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt, should be labeled as 7 of the 8 keys on the outer side of a Kinesis Advantage (=, Tab, CapsLock, 2x Shift, ', \ and -). The numpad area could probably be used to place keys like `, Insert, [, ], End, PageDown as well as Delete or Enter (matches numpad 0). The goal is to have the proper profile (R1 to R4) for these keys.
At this point I'm not 100% sure what profile of keys on the numpad or the area to the left of it are. I assume the bottom two rows are R1, then from bottom to top the rows are R2, R3 and the top 2 rows are R4).

As I'm having my heating fixed I'm stuck at home for an hour or two, so I took the chance to do this! Here's a preview, please report any errors. WASD's templates can be found at the link above, and the normal WASD keyboard to Kinesis mapping is taken from the ghetto-adapted-chart in the post I quoted.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39547[/ATTACH]

Note: This is the Kinesis default layout. I will be making my custom layout (see sig) with Colemak, and I will make a save when the letters are moved to Colemak positions, prior to doing my personal adjustments like moving the num row and doing my others adjustments (erw and Input Nirvana, I'm looking at you guys). I'm happy to provide the AI/PDF templates I made. The 3 extra keys at the bottom would have to be ordered as customs, unless WASD is willing to make them and leave off the blank keys, which aren't needed on a Kinesis board.

Update: Sent an email to WASDkeyboards:
Quote
Hi Weyman

I finally found time to adapt your custom layout templates for a Kinesis Advantage board. Attached you'll find a preview (it's being reviewed/corrected at GeekHack, I can provide AI (CS4 version) or PDF once it's final).

The keys I left blank aren't needed on a Kinesis Advantage, however the 3 extra keys I put at the bottom are needed. I'm wondering if you can use a layout like this to make a custom Kinesis set, and if so what the price would be (without the blank keys, but with the extra 3 keys instead).

Just to make sure, please confirm a few assumptions:
- the Home and PgUp are R4?
- The `, Insert, [ and ] in the numpad area are R1?
- The PgDn in the numpad area is R2?
- The four arrows are R1?

Thank you and best regards, Oliver
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 February 2012, 03:03:02 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #214 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 03:04:06 »
Quote from: boli;507346
A less expensive option which wouldn't require WASD to offer a Kinesis Advantage set would be to create a custom layout template for a Kinesis Advantage (which could be adjusted for individual custom layouts) and use the Custom Keyboard Designer to order key caps. When done right one would need only 3 extra custom keys (same as for the 104 set listed above). Cost would be $59.99 for the custom 104 key cap set, plus $21 for the 3 custom keys ($7 each).

If anyone is proficient with Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw this shouldn't be too much work. Basically all the R1 1x1.25 keys which are normally used for 2x Ctrl, 2x Command/Win, 2x Alt, should be labeled as 7 of the 8 keys on the outer side of a Kinesis Advantage (=, Tab, CapsLock, 2x Shift, ', \ and -). The numpad area could probably be used to place keys like `, Insert, [, ], End, PageDown as well as Delete or Enter (matches numpad 0). The goal is to have the proper profile (R1 to R4) for these keys.
At this point I'm not 100% sure what profile of keys on the numpad or the area to the left of it are. I assume the bottom two rows are R1, then from bottom to top the rows are R2, R3 and the top 2 rows are R4).


As I'm having my heating fixed I'm stuck at home for an hour or two, so I took the chance to do this! Here's a preview, please report any errors. WASD's templates can be found at the link above, and the normal WASD keyboard to Kinesis mapping is taken from the ghetto-adapted-chart in the post I quoted.

Note: This is the Kinesis default layout. I will be making my custom layout (see sig) with Colemak, and I will make a save when the letters are moved to Colemak positions, prior to doing my personal adjustments like moving the num row and doing my others adjustments (erw and Input Nirvana, I'm looking at you guys). I'm happy to provide the AI/PDF templates I made. The 3 extra keys at the bottom would have to be ordered as customs, unless WASD is willing to make them and leave off the blank keys, which aren't needed on a Kinesis board.

Edit: Removed outdated template and added updated version in later post below.

Update: Sent an email to WASDkeyboards:
Quote
Hi Weyman

I finally found time to adapt your custom layout templates for a Kinesis Advantage board. Attached you'll find a preview (it's being reviewed/corrected at GeekHack, I can provide AI (CS4 version) or PDF once it's final).

The keys I left blank aren't needed on a Kinesis Advantage, however the 3 extra keys I put at the bottom are needed. I'm wondering if you can use a layout like this to make a custom Kinesis set, and if so what the price would be (without the blank keys, but with the extra 3 keys instead).

Just to make sure, please confirm a few assumptions:
- the Home and PgUp are R4?
- The `, Insert, [ and ] in the numpad area are R1?
- The PgDn in the numpad area is R2?
- The four arrows are R1?

Thank you and best regards, Oliver
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 February 2012, 11:48:08 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #215 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 08:57:32 »
Awesome job :-)

I think the Enter text should be vertical upside down compared to the Delete key.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #216 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 10:14:22 »
Quote from: erw;508120
Awesome job :-)

I think the Enter text should be vertical upside down compared to the Delete key.

Thanks. Wut you don't like wrong sloped keys for your right thumb? ;) Good catch, will fix when back home (3 times, that's what I get for being overzealous and doing the Colemak and custom layout already).

Update: Updated template to v0.4
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39569[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 February 2012, 11:44:37 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #217 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:35:22 »
This is another response from SP:

------There is quite a bit of information on this post, so I am not exactly sure
what it is that you are wanting me to look at. To clarify, we made custom
keycaps for Kinesis back in the 80's. This program was an ergonomic keyboard
with very custom shapes. This was also well before my time, so I don't know
if any of our standard DCS keycaps were used in the program and
unfortunately all of that information went back to Kinesis with their
tooling. We do make DCS sculptured keycaps that are referred to on that
post, however what keys are used and whether or not they are a good fit on
the Kinesis board is unknown to me.
Do you have pictures of the keycaps you are looking to replace? I don't have
a reference to the Kinesis keyboard you are looking at, so I don't know what
keys in particular you need.-------
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
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Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #218 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:44:09 »
Just ask them for a free DCS row 5 sample, that's the best way to confirm it fits nicely.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #219 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:50:15 »
I'd like 6 free samples please. ;)

As for pictures, we have ksd's chart:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35911&d=1324805031

And we have the photos in Dox's post, for example this one:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39501&d=1328570045

These can be viewed without being logged in.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 February 2012, 12:53:25 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #220 on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 12:42:15 »
Quote from: boli;508023
Sent an email to WASDkeyboards

Any word from Weyman?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #221 on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 13:08:26 »
Quote from: erw;512556
Any word from Weyman?

Unfortunately no. I assume he's busy with the 105 keyboards.

Update: Resent mail with the updated preview (v0.4).

Update 2: BTW I should get the Colemak set some time next week, looking forward to checking out the laser engraving quality. I got the spare keys as blanks this week already.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 February 2012, 13:15:42 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #222 on: Mon, 13 February 2012, 02:10:26 »
- - - We still need to consider if the keys can be replaced with PBT keycaps - - -

heh heh
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #223 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 13:56:09 »
Got the 104 Colemak key cap set today.

Apologies for the excessive noise in the pictures, this camera doesn't cope well with low light situations... I like the all black look quite a bit, looks very elegant IMO.

As you can see there's loads of blank keys that didn't come with the set. The custom layout set will fix this, if/when Weyman replies. If not I'm somewhat tempted to get the custom layout with 3 extra custom keys... :)
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40495[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40496[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40497[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40498[/ATTACH]

And here's a few extra ones with some color, though I don't like any of these particularly.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40499[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40500[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40501[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:16:47 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #224 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:01:32 »
What this keyboard needs is some extra switches. Since you have 2 of these keyboards, will you be attempting my mod?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #225 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:04:57 »
I'm tempted to. The guy from work who has my Advantage LF does have a dremel, and someone is bound to have a glue gun. Those are the things I'm missing, I think I can handle the rest.

BTW I have 3, the one in the pictures above is the one with browns. A second LF (well upgraded with red key wells) is with another work buddy who's also doing a test drive. This forces me to really test the TE at work. ^^
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:07:28 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #226 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:45:04 »
I like the monochromatic look, I think it's as elegant as any keyboard can look. The subtle legends are sweet :)

We gotta firm up the final key caps situation 1)exact 2) reasonable swaps 3) keys I'm gonna make for what can't be reasonably swapped.

Boli, you're the man!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline boli

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kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations
« Reply #227 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 15:25:56 »
Heh thanks, you too!

With the WASD custom layout vector files (104 key) we're very close to reaching a 2) reasonable swaps state IMO. If only we could get those 3 extra lasered key caps needed for an Advantage, instead of all the extra unneeded caps from the num block and navigation area.

The WASD replacements have worked pretty well, other than for the tall thumb keys (the R4 aren't tall enough so the thumbs hit the keys below). For those we have options like SP (possibly), sandpaper, extending stems, or Input Nirvana's garage cap factory. :D
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

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« Reply #228 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 17:36:46 »
The caps are lovely, boli :-)

I had almost settled on etched, but now I'm about to change my mind again :-)

Quote from: boli;514428
sandpaper


Haha, I just tried sandpapering a key yesterday to see how easy it was to get nice looking. Unfortunately it still looks rough while it feels smooth. But I don't have anything finer than grit P400.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

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« Reply #229 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 17:48:02 »
Quote from: erw;514555
The caps are lovely, boli :-)

[snip] Haha, I just tried sandpapering a key yesterday to see how easy it was to get nice looking. Unfortunately it still looks rough while it feels smooth. But I don't have anything finer than grit P400.

Yeah I like the caps too. When I received them I thought 8pt was way too small/subtle, but now that they're on the board it's much better. Still wondering how larger fonts would look like when etched (some of the spare caps were 10pt I think, but I left them with a work buddy).

Haha. Come to think of it I might have some fine sandpaper in my guitar case in the cellar (was used for nail filing). Hmm... ^^

Small clarification on the R4 aren't tall enough so the thumbs hit the keys below: While I do touch the two keys below, and even slightly depress them sometimes, I haven't accidentally activated one yet. Still tall keys would be nice. :)

On an unrelated note: I tried out 2 and 3 o-rings on a stem. 2 didn't feel noticeably different from 1. 3 took quite a bit of pressure to make the key cap stick. I put in on the e key (k in QWERTY), wrote a few lines of text and surprisingly didn't really care for it. I thought I liked short travel, thinking back to the Apple aluminum keyboard. But with 3 rings it's harder to not bottom out, and even with the softer landing not bottoming out feels nicer. One ring is enough to make the occasional landing both softer and less noisy. Did anyone else have experiences with this?
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2012, 17:59:12 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

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« Reply #230 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 18:12:02 »
Actually a sanded key should look better over time, remember how textured keys get shiny anyway? Of course, getting finer sandpaper like 800 or finer grit would help too.

Regarding o-rings: I only use 1 under each key, since prefer to avoid bottoming out as much as possible.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline erw

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« Reply #231 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 19:33:05 »
Quote from: boli;514563
Yeah I like the caps too. When I received them I thought 8pt was way too small/subtle, but now that they're on the board it's much better. Still wondering how larger fonts would look like when etched

Yeah, the size looks good. I guess normal Kinesis keycap letters would be around 16pt in that scale, but that's not really a good. Size <10pt or something centered and huge (30pt?) would be cool I think. There are so many options and I want to order them all!

Quote from: sordna;514581
Actually a sanded key should look better over time, remember how textured keys get shiny anyway? Of course, getting finer sandpaper like 800 or finer grit would help too.


Mine get shiny very slowly, I guess my hands are not very abrasive (come to think of it, girls at my dance class sometimes say I have soft hands). But I just got an idea and used my jeans for the final "sanding"! Now it looks better and it's the smoothest key I have :-P
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline sordna

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« Reply #232 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 19:35:24 »
Quote from: erw;514628
But I just got an idea and used my jeans for the final "sanding"! Now it looks better and it's the smoothest key I have :-P

That's called "buffing". Good idea by the way!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #233 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 00:20:58 »
Boli-
I pinched photo #2 and inserted it into the Split Kinesis gallery...it's slick!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #234 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:12:01 »
Quote from: erw;514628
Yeah, the size looks good. I guess normal Kinesis keycap letters would be around 16pt in that scale, but that's not really a good. Size <10pt or something centered and huge (30pt?) would be cool I think. There are so many options and I want to order them all!

If you go the custom layout way there's lots of spare keys you can experiment with. Let me know if you'd like the vector files I made (AI 4 format).

Quote from: input nirvana;514924
Boli-
I pinched photo #2 and inserted it into the Split Kinesis gallery...it's slick!

Awesome, I'm sure it will be very happy among all those nice modded-Advantage and intermission pix. ;D

Update: Weyman replied!

Quote
Thanks for laying it out like that. I'd be happy to assist you and other GH members with getting a custom Kinesis set. I have a few other projects I need to finish at the moment, so I'll have get back to you on this set in about a week. I can offer the set at the same price as a regular custom set. I think what I'll do is make a special template that users can upload with their orders. I'll let you know as soon as I have time to work on it. Thank you.

OK so that'd be $60. Not as low as one could have hoped, but it beats paying $60 for the set and $7 each for the 3 extra custom keys.

And for people who'd rather have blanks there is the $43.49 option I listed earlier.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:38:01 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #235 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:46:32 »
Quote from: boli;514978
Update: Weyman replied!

Since I met Weyman, I'm a big fan of his. As long as it makes business sense (which has many interpretations), he will probably be open to services/products/ideas. It's tough from our perspective to understand why selling a couple of this or that isn't a good thing for him, but remember it's often a TIME issue. If he can invest time in initially developing a process that can be repeated with less of a time investment, it is economy of scale and he can afford to provide what we want at a competitive price point. That's why I originally went to his location with a Kinesis to try and hammer out some of the bug-a-boos. Here we are a couple months later still working on getting it right. Time.

In the interest of making it work out, if it turns out I need to make these darn 'missing' key caps, I'd make a ton and give them to Weyman so the Kinesis template can be flawless. But don't worry, you guys working/contributing in these threads will still get the 'missing' keys from me directly. Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #236 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 10:02:48 »
I just sent this to Weyman.

Quote
Hi Weyman

Great to hear back from you, I'm looking forward to your follow-up mail in a week. :)

A special template sounds good, even though I've already created 3 different versions based on the current 104 template - I'm happy to recreate them though.

As for price that would mean $60, despite needing 40 keys less than the normal 104 set? I take it the extra cost is for the extra work you'd have when lasering the 3 extra keys that don't fit in the 104 jig...

Best regards, Oliver

I'm OK with $60 because I'm aware that anything out of the ordinary means extra work, we'll see.

Quote from: input nirvana;514996
In the interest of making it work out, if it turns out I need to make these darn 'missing' key caps, I'd make a ton and give them to Weyman so the Kinesis template can be flawless. But don't worry, you guys working/contributing in these threads will still get the 'missing' keys from me directly. Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)

Ha! :D

Instead of making your own it might be worth ordering a DCS row 5 from SP to verify it's the one we need. According to their DCS inventory they have 1'000 caps stock of ABS DCS - 1X ROW 5 - BLACK (NN). They don't have any PBT versions, nor any other colors stock.

Interest check:
- Who would buy blank key cap sets from WASD at the current $44?
- Who would buy lasered key cap sets from WASD at the current $60?

I need at least another lasered set, more likely two. However I am somewhat tempted to order a custom set now so I have the option of trying out some weird stuff on the extra keys... ;) Also I'd like to know how an "old school remix" set would look on a black Kinesis. Could be awesome or awful. For now I really like the elegant all black caps...
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 February 2012, 16:02:42 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #237 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:03:10 »
I'm in for blank. And, despite my 'exciting' and 'arty' flair for the Kinesis, the black color suits me fine. But of course I'm open to other color options/mixes.

An email needs to go to SP about the measurements of DCS-1X ROW 5....oops, I just sent it :)

Will report back when I get a response.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline boli

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« Reply #238 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:11:21 »
Quote from: input nirvana;515251
I'm in for blank. And, despite my 'exciting' and 'arty' flair for the Kinesis, the black color suits me fine. But of course I'm open to other color options/mixes.

Just one set?

Quote
An email needs to go to SP about the measurements of DCS-1X ROW 5....oops, I just sent it :)

Will report back when I get a response.

Awesome, cheers!
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

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« Reply #239 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 12:32:29 »
Quote from: input nirvana;514996
Mostly so I can get your addresses should I need places to hide out from girlfriends :)


Haha, if you need a place to hide from girlfriends in Europe, lemme know :-P

Quote from: boli;515149
Interest check:
- Who would buy blank key cap sets from WASD at the current $44?
- Who would buy lasered key cap sets from WASD at the current $60?


I'd like two lasered sets. Well, I'd like a lot more, but I'm probably only going to want to buy two for the moment :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #240 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 14:02:20 »
Signature Plastics response:

"The height on the front of the key: from the bottom skirt to the upper-most
point is 0.470".
The height on the back of the key: from the bottom skirt to the upper-most
point is 0.512"
The slope is -6 degrees"

Melissa Petersen
Signature Plastics LLC


I'm definitely in for a set of black, no legends, and with the extra keys that are added (see mods articles). Any more will be this summer for 2 other boards also with extra keys (see mods articles) and NOT black.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 February 2012, 14:06:12 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #241 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 16:14:51 »
Hmm, I used a ruler to (roughly) measure a tall Kinesis key, as well as a WASD R4 key. The height difference is roughly 2mm. The DCS r5 seems to be about one mm taller than the R4, but also about 1mm shorter than the Kinesis key. 1mm is roughly 0.04 inches BTW. So the SP keys should be a little better than the WASD R4 and might be good enough.
Meanwhile I'll go check out if I still have the fine sandpaper I mentioned. :)

Update 1: IN, for how long have you had the pic of the Mothership in your article? For some reason I never saw that before. ;D

Update 2: I do have some P 800 sandpaper, which is quite fine, but did leave some faint marks, and a finer one for polishing, which got more or less (rather less) rid of the marks. Now I get that sandpapering isn't exciting, quite a bit of work for a single key, and that was only one with Ctrl on it. :)

Update 3: Ugh I need coarser sandpaper, this Option Alt legend takes forever to get off.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 February 2012, 16:51:44 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #242 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 17:54:23 »
The Mogambo-Mothership-of-all-Kineses-Keyboards? The one at the beginning of the gallery has been there a loooong time. The huge pic with the notes I am making is very recent. I have a few more views of it somewhere....

The article is a horrible mess, very disorganized and difficult to navigate. It should be broken down into several specific bite sized pieces, as previously suggested....too much info is hard to navigate. And those damn girlie pics really distract!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #243 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 17:58:19 »
Quote from: input nirvana;515514
The Mogambo-Mothership-of-all-Kineses-Keyboards? The one at the beginning of the gallery has been there a loooong time. The huge pic with the notes I am making is very recent.

Ye I meant the one at the very end - that thing has almost everything. :) *Must focus on the keyboard*
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #244 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 18:02:23 »
Quote from: boli;515517
Ye I meant the one at the very end - that thing has almost everything. :) *Must focus on the keyboard*

Keep in mind, the red notes are MY notes on what I may make those same keys. The guy that flies that particular keyboard is Korean, so I have no idea what his captions say :) I can tell you he is using an AIKON controller, not the stock Kinesis controller.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #245 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:11:16 »
Full and semi sandpapered keys on the left:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40732[/ATTACH]
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #246 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:20:49 »
Heyyyy....do those look pretty good? Close ups pleeeeezzzz! If they do, I'll just sandpaper the darn things.

Paper grit/type and process.

Do you think the caps are getting a little thin?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #247 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:22:34 »
Closer look:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40733[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40734[/ATTACH]

I just used the P800 sandpaper I had and rubbed like an idiot, once the legend was gone I used the polishing paper. I should really get some rougher sandpaper to start with though, 5-10 minutes of rubbing is what was done to the right key. I didn't use a jig nor a wooden cylinder or similar for the sandpaper, just held the key with one hand and rubbed with the other...

Don't notice any thinness, but they feel very smooth. And the edges are a little sharper, but that's not an issue when typing.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:29:33 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #248 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 03:40:40 »
P800 is a wet/dry paper good for sanding automotive clearcoat. That's a lot of work buddy, you may want to kick it a notch and try 400 then take half a minute with the 800...or not since it makes it so smooth...... lol

Thank you, I'm thinking it looks pretty darn good. What are your thoughts?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline boli

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« Reply #249 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 06:14:20 »
Like I said I'd like to try coarser sandpaper, because with the P800 one get's nowhere in a reasonable amount of time. It's just what I had in my guitar case (used for nails of right hand). :)

I think they look good as well. The smoothness of the surface doesn't matter to me. While the difference is noticeable, both are fine.

BTW the WASDkeyboards website was updated with a 105 key custom designer.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 February 2012, 16:01:32 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com