Author Topic: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)  (Read 104267 times)

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Offline rknize

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Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 15:59:15 »
Vendor/Commercial Terms of Service

This forum exists for the community of members.  Allowing vendors and other commercial entities to participate, have vendor forums where appropriate, and provide notifications, special offers and other incentives to non-commercial members enhances the community.  It is because of this opportunity to enhace the community that this forum encourages and embraces participation from relevant vendors and other commercial interests.

In order to ensure that vendor and commercial participation enhances the community and does not detract in any way, vendors and other commercial entities must abide by these Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS) in addition to all other Terms of Service that apply to other members.

1. Who qualifies as a Vendor?
  a. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that according to IRS regulations would be classified as a business.
  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities.
  c. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity whose intent is either (a) or (b) above.
  d. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity who, in the assessment of the Administrators of this forum, should be so classified.

2. Who cannot be a Vendor?

  a. Any Administrator or Moderator of this forum who qualifies as a Vendor under Rules 1.a-c, must choose between being a Vendor or being an Administrator or Moderator.  It is a conflict of interest to be both.
  b. Individuals and entities who donate any and all profits to the forum, and geekhackers, LLC, are exempt from Rule 2.a.

3. How is a Vendor denoted on the forum?

  a. A vendor is denoted as such primarily by text under the member name such as "Vendor", "Commercial", or similar.
  b. If a vendor has an online sales site or a vendor forum here, please place links to both in your signature block.

4. What are the privileges of being a Vendor?
  a. The ability to post for-sale or other commercial posts prior to attaining the normal number of other posts.
  b. Eligibility to apply for a vendor forum, approval of which may be subject to other requirements.

5. What are the limitations of being a Vendor?
  a. Commercial posts advertising premade, available product(s) shall be made in the Vendor's own subforum, or in the absence of such, in the general vendor section only.
  b. Pre-orders/Group Buys that seek group funding from the geekhack community for products that have not yet been made or purchased may be posted in the "Group Buys and Preorders" section.
  c. Private Messages (PM) shall not be used to bypass ToS rules.
  d. Conduct all transactions ethically, with courtesy, and with proper communication.
  e. Be courteous and polite in the forum.

6. How will this be enforced?
  a. Forum Administrators and Moderators shall take actions necessary to ensure compliance with the VTOS.

Please also read this information post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81635.0
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 April 2017, 14:49:59 by Moderation Team »
Russ

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:05:47 »
Does ThIs MEan Boost isn't a Mod, Now?

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:10:07 »
Does ThIs MEan Boost isn't a Mod, Now?

No, it means he doesn't make a profit.

Neither did I with Retro DSA.  (Spectacularly not, as it turned out!)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline kmiller8

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:12:09 »
What about people who sell stuff in Classifieds for an obvious profit?

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:12:44 »
Does ThIs MEan Boost isn't a Mod, Now?

No, it means he doesn't make a profit.

Neither did I with Retro DSA.  (Spectacularly not, as it turned out!)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


How Does redline Not Count As A Profit Maker?

is He No Longer Part Of That?

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:23:43 »
The way it's worded makes it sound like I'm a vendor because I make a small amount of profit from parting out POS boards, and offer modding services.
Reaper "frelled" me... Twice... Did he "frell" you too?... *brohug*
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:26:07 »
Does ThIs MEan Boost isn't a Mod, Now?

No, it means he doesn't make a profit.

Neither did I with Retro DSA.  (Spectacularly not, as it turned out!)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


How Does redline Not Count As A Profit Maker?

is He No Longer Part Of That?

Just so there is no mystery here, I personally grilled Boost and every other member of the Mod/Admin team to find out if they make a profit on any keyboard or keyboard-related activities.  Boost in particular has not made a profit via his Redline activities.  He is very much net negative there.  Alaricjs does some work for people, but also doesn't make money doing it.

Now, Redline certainly qualifies as a vendor, and their official representatives will be so anointed.  We can't control what Redline puts on their website, but if Boost or any mod starts making a profit, then he will have to make a choice.

And no, selling keyboards and keycaps between hobbyists doesn't count.  But because this is a forum full of smart people, we added the IRS test to Rule 1 to push people off of the fence one way or the other.  If the IRS *would* rule your activities a business on Schedule C, then it is a business.  If the IRS would rule it a hobby, then it is not a business according to that test.

Alternatively, if you launch a keyboard business with a storefront and an Illinois Tax Certificate (for example), then you are also a vendor.

Does that answer your questions?

 - Ron | samwisekoi


p.s.  I will be off-line for a few hours.  Russ is the OP here and will try to answer questions as well.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline kmiller8

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:57:00 »
And no, selling keyboards and keycaps between hobbyists doesn't count.  But because this is a forum full of smart people, we added the IRS test to Rule 1 to push people off of the fence one way or the other.  If the IRS *would* rule your activities a business on Schedule C, then it is a business.  If the IRS would rule it a hobby, then it is not a business according to that test.

...

Does that answer your questions?

no.

The VTOS clearly state.

Quote
1. Who qualifies as a Vendor?
  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities.
  c. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity whose intent is either (a) or (b) above.

The way I interpret that, if I take this HO CC I paid $30 for, and I list it in the classifieds for $70 and sell it. I have qualified for 1.b and am now a vendor, because I have made a profit from sales, and I don't plan on donating a cent to geekhack.

Also with you saying "selling between hobbyists," what qualifies as hobbyists? Someone who makes more than 5 posts a day? Someone who has more than 3 keyboards? What's the difference between a vendor making a sale, and a hobbyist making a sale?

I feel if you are going to have an exception to the rule, it should be more clearly defined.

Also the way Rule 1 is worded, it seems like if you meet any of the four criteria, you are a vendor, however that would make 1.c pretty much redundant in that case?

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:45:46 »
And no, selling keyboards and keycaps between hobbyists doesn't count.  But because this is a forum full of smart people, we added the IRS test to Rule 1 to push people off of the fence one way or the other.  If the IRS *would* rule your activities a business on Schedule C, then it is a business.  If the IRS would rule it a hobby, then it is not a business according to that test.

...

Does that answer your questions?

no.

The VTOS clearly state.

Quote
1. Who qualifies as a Vendor?
  a. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that according to IRS regulations would be classified as a business.
  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities.
  c. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity whose intent is either (a) or (b) above.
  d. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity who, in the assessment of the Administrators of this forum, should be so classified.

The way I interpret that, if I take this HO CC I paid $30 for, and I list it in the classifieds for $70 and sell it. I have qualified for 1.b and am now a vendor, because I have made a profit from sales, and I don't plan on donating a cent to geekhack.

Also with you saying "selling between hobbyists," what qualifies as hobbyists? Someone who makes more than 5 posts a day? Someone who has more than 3 keyboards? What's the difference between a vendor making a sale, and a hobbyist making a sale?

I feel if you are going to have an exception to the rule, it should be more clearly defined.

Also the way Rule 1 is worded, it seems like if you meet any of the four criteria, you are a vendor, however that would make 1.c pretty much redundant in that case?

Excellent.  Thank you for answering MY question, even if I did not answer yours.

I've expanded the quote of Rule 1 to show it in its entirety.  Let's look at each line...

1.a.  Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that according to IRS regulations would be classified as a business.

This is first because it is the most important.  And the IRS isn't associated with anyone here.  (Non-US folks, the IRS is the tax man, and even if you don't owe our tax man money, the rules in this case can be applied anywhere.)

Basically, if you do something that can't and doesn't make a NET profit, then it isn't a business.  If you drive a race car on the weekends, but spend $50 for every $1 you win, you are not a business, according to the IRS.  Also, if you invest $1,000 in equipment and then make stuff that earns you $800 in GROSS margin, you have NOT made a NET profit, and are not a business according to IRS rules.  Also, if you sell so little you are not even required (in the US) to file a Schedule C, you aren't a business -- you are, in their words, a "hobbyist."

So, if you "take this HO CC I paid $30 for, and I list it in the classifieds for $70 and sell it", the IRS isn't going to classify you as a business, and neither does Rule 1.a.

But what about Rule 1.b.?  To start, you aren't an "entity" like CM, you're not a representative of an entity like CM-Rajiv, so those don't apply at all.  The the question becomes "are you an individual who profits from sales, services, or group buying activities?"  Are you?  In any given year, do you make more money than you spend on sales, service or group buying activities?  I suppose if all you do is that ONE transaction, then you might say you made a profit.  But (a) you did way more than that, (b) the money and the number of transactions is trivial even if you change that out to a single $200 keyboard you sold for $400, and (c) you had no other costs WHATSOEVER involved in making the sale?

Rule 1.b. is to prevent people and entities who are actually making money from pretending they are not vendors.  It is almost true that you could reduce it to absurdity and make a literal case, but really, why bother?

On the other hand, if someone is actually making a living buying and selling, and then posts what appears to be an innocuous Great Find that points to their eBay site, that person is a vendor, and other people on this forum deserve to know so they can make informed choices.  Or if some PR person from NewEgg starts posting about how excellent their new keyboard is, that person is a representative of an entity, and should be classified as such.

Then there is Rule 1.c.  What if you are starting up a keycap site, or even are running a long-standing keyboard site, but due to the biggest economic downturn in decades you are not actually turning a profit, but you are TRYING to do so?  Well, dang, you are a vendor, even if you haven't made money yet.

So, if the government thinks you aren't a vendor, you aren't trying to pretend you are a regular guy instead of a vendor, and you aren't just an unsuccessful vendor, then who cares if you sell a CC for a profit on that single transaction?  (By the way, I'd be happy to buy a CC off of you for $70.  Call me!)

And Rule 1.d. is there because there are now TWENTY THOUSAND PEOPLE on geekhack.org, and somebody is going to figure out a loophole and we need some sort of safety net.

Anyhow, the short version of the VTOS is still just "Do you make money doing this?  Then don't be sneaky and do be polite." So if we accidentally make one too many people be polite, the world won't end.  On the other hand, one person could sneak in and make a bunch of money while everyone thought he was being a good guy.  That is the guy we want to be sure we shine some sunlight on.

So NOW have I answered your question?

Seriously.  I am trying to do just that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:05:20 »
Or if some PR person from NewEgg starts posting about how excellent their new keyboard is, that person is a representative of an entity, and should be classified as such.

Not to nitpick, but that would indicate to me that boost should be considered a rep of redline, even if he specifically doesn't make a profit himself.  He is the official communication lines (mostly the *only*) and who we've worked the last two buys through redline (girldc gundam and the current LZ-GH).


I feel like I'm picking on boost, but really, he's the only one I can think of at the moment in this situation.

Offline kmiller8

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:22:19 »
Excellent.  Thank you for answering MY question, even if I did not answer yours.

I've expanded the quote of Rule 1 to show it in its entirety.  Let's look at each line...

...

So, if you "take this HO CC I paid $30 for, and I list it in the classifieds for $70 and sell it", the IRS isn't going to classify you as a business, and neither does Rule 1.a.

But what about Rule 1.b.?  To start, you aren't an "entity" like CM, you're not a representative of an entity like CM-Rajiv, so those don't apply at all.  The the question becomes "are you an individual who profits from sales, services, or group buying activities?"  Are you?  In any given year, do you make more money than you spend on sales, service or group buying activities?  I suppose if all you do is that ONE transaction, then you might say you made a profit.  But (a) you did way more than that, (b) the money and the number of transactions is trivial even if you change that out to a single $200 keyboard you sold for $400, and (c) you had no other costs WHATSOEVER involved in making the sale?

Rule 1.b. is to prevent people and entities who are actually making money from pretending they are not vendors.  It is almost true that you could reduce it to absurdity and make a literal case, but really, why bother?

On the other hand, if someone is actually making a living buying and selling, and then posts what appears to be an innocuous Great Find that points to their eBay site, that person is a vendor, and other people on this forum deserve to know so they can make informed choices.  Or if some PR person from NewEgg starts posting about how excellent their new keyboard is, that person is a representative of an entity, and should be classified as such.

...

So NOW have I answered your question?

Seriously.  I am trying to do just that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


Ok, we're getting closer to an answer :)

I can completely understand everything except 1.b. Before I explain it, this Is what I think 1.b should look like.

Quote
1. Who qualifies as a Vendor?
  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities.

The reason for this, is, I feel like as individuals who offer a service, such as The_Beast, WFD, The_Ed, should not be classified as "Vendors" since they are offering member to member services and not just trying to sell items.

However, leaving the "representative of an entity" I feel would cover everyone else on the forum here as an individual here to make profits, for example (please don't hate me examples, I <3 u guys) i3oilermaker is representing techkeys, notchka is representing keypop, feng/qtan are representing their eBay stores. This would exclude members such as the ones listed above, and other members such as yourself, samwisekoi, who just run the odd GB for geekhack members, not to represent their own storefront, while still including people who are obviously vendors and representatives of their stores.

Another thing that slightly bothers me is 2.b, it seems as if you guys could target someone who is in violation of 1.b as an individual running a keycap set GB, and require them to donate or face these strict Vendor terms. Obviously that's an exaggeration of what could happen, but it seems as if it could be used if the "Individual" part is left in 1.b.

Obviously these are just some examples, I could probably come up with more. I'd just like to see some clarification of 1.b and I think my proposed solution of removing the "Individual" part would definitely help me feel better, and hopefully other members of the community, feel better about these new VTOS.

If you have any clarifications, I have a tough time explaining things in my head to words, so feel free to ask me to clarify anything.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:27:28 »
So anyone who sells a CC for the usual ~$50-$150 is a vendor? (rule 1.b)

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:31:40 »
So anyone who sells a CC for the usual ~$50-$150 is a vendor? (rule 1.b)
Lulz.

Offline boost

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:37:19 »
I just ran a gb for the lzgh and I helped with the shipping of the gundam in the USA. Thats all I did. No profit. kinda in the negative.
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Offline SmallFry

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:40:02 »
People were calling you out for two reasons,
1) you belong to Redline, which was kicked from OTD/KBDMania for profiting on the AIKON
2) despite not making money, you are part of their represented interests.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:47:03 »
I don't know what redline's relationship with OTD has to do with anything...?

Still, Sam's rules do seem to catch boost.  Also tinlong.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:50:37 »
Redline is a vendor, and boost is part of their team. I agree with TJ here.
(Nothing against you, Boost)

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:53:26 »
So anyone who sells a CC for the usual ~$50-$150 is a vendor? (rule 1.b)

No.  See my long explanation above.

Ok, we're getting closer to an answer :)

I can completely understand everything except 1.b. Before I explain it, this Is what I think 1.b should look like.

Quote
1. Who qualifies as a Vendor?
  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities.

The reason for this, is, I feel like as individuals who offer a service, such as The_Beast, WFD, The_Ed, should not be classified as "Vendors" since they are offering member to member services and not just trying to sell items.

However, leaving the "representative of an entity" I feel would cover everyone else on the forum here as an individual here to make profits, for example (please don't hate me examples, I <3 u guys) i3oilermaker is representing techkeys, notchka is representing keypop, feng/qtan are representing their eBay stores. This would exclude members such as the ones listed above, and other members such as yourself, samwisekoi, who just run the odd GB for geekhack members, not to represent their own storefront, while still including people who are obviously vendors and representatives of their stores.

Another thing that slightly bothers me is 2.b, it seems as if you guys could target someone who is in violation of 1.b as an individual running a keycap set GB, and require them to donate or face these strict Vendor terms. Obviously that's an exaggeration of what could happen, but it seems as if it could be used if the "Individual" part is left in 1.b.

Obviously these are just some examples, I could probably come up with more. I'd just like to see some clarification of 1.b and I think my proposed solution of removing the "Individual" part would definitely help me feel better, and hopefully other members of the community, feel better about these new VTOS.

If you have any clarifications, I have a tough time explaining things in my head to words, so feel free to ask me to clarify anything.

You are expressing yourself very well, thanks very much.  We pre-released this document in order to have this very discussion in an open and public manner.

Getting down to a single word is good progress.  I think i3oilermaker is Techkeys, and I think Notcha, feng and Imsto are in the same category.  Similarly, I think I am samwisekoi.com, not its representative.  And if I ran group buys as samwisekoi.com and made money, I would have a choice to make.  But I would be making that choice as an individual, not as a representative of an entity.  In my day job, working for a company incorporated in the State of California, I am representing an entity.  But not here.

So the word individual needs to be there to cover sole proprietor and DBA kinds of things, formal or informal as they may be.  And we cannot exhaustively list all of the possible ways an individual can be in business.

But I take your point that there are people who make money on specific transactions, and we don't want to do anything about them.  And we very, very much want to encourage people to do group buys.  Innovation fosters more innovation, and all of that is good.

Let me ponder your proposal more fully, and also consider if there is a way to differentiate between someone who (for example) offers soldering services on a small scale and should be commended and promoted from someone who is running a business as an individual on a scale where it makes a material difference to other members.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline The_Beast

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:00:34 »
1.b "  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities."

If a GB organizer gets a free X (often times GB organizers get a free set of caps) doesn't this constitute a profit?
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:20:32 »
1.b "  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities."

If a GB organizer gets a free X (often times GB organizers get a free set of caps) doesn't this constitute a profit?

Only if as a whole, a net profit was made on the entire buy.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:29:22 »
I think I would classify myself between an individual and a vendor. I have had hundreds of transactions, but I do not think I am on the level of a vendor (especially in the profit section). My record is perfect too (unlike some other individuals/vendors), and not a single package has ever been lost. In my opinion a VTOS should hold vendors accountable for their own order fulfillment shortcomings (possibly revoking classified/vendor rights until all outstanding orders are fulfilled), but then there is that whole "CAVEAT EMPTOR" stickied stuff in the classifieds... My 2 cents...
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Offline whiskytango

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:38:53 »
Sam, your comments on the rules in your post above really helps clarify this. Very well said.

You guys should just write the rules this way. Like any set of legal rules, such as rules of court or civil procedure, there are the Rules and then there are the Committee's Comments to explain the rules and usually give some examples as you have done. I routinely have to refer to the Comments to better understand the Rules as they are applied to a specific situation.

As an attorney, can I just say this thread is very entertaining.

EDIT: Explanation from IRS of Hobby vs Business: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Business-or-Hobby%3F-Answer-Has-Implications-for-Deductions
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:40:37 by whiskytango »
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:40:26 »
People were calling you out for two reasons,
1) you belong to Redline, which was kicked from OTD/KBDMania for profiting on the AIKON
2) despite not making money, you are part of their represented interests.

SmallFry, what do you mean by 'belong to Redline'?  Paid agent?  Legal representative?  Employee?  Sole importer?  Listed on their website?

The above is an actual question, not smart-alec or rhetorical.  Seriously.

I'll take it as a given that Redline is a business, especially if they profit from their activities.  (I assume any such profits were made by Koreans and stayed in Korea.)

From my perspective, runng group buys and importing cool things from Korean keyboard folk is a good thing.  Secret profiteering and misrepresentation is not.

 - Ron I samwisekoi
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:51:04 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline SmallFry

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:47:52 »
It's not SF. :P
Boost is listed on Team Redline's website as the American contact/distributor or at least he was.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:53:58 »
I think it is now :P lolz

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:56:22 »
It's not SF. :P
Boost is listed on Team Redline's website as the American contact/distributor or at least he was.

Fixed your name.  Using a dang tablet here.  Apologies.

I will go understand the Redline relationship better, both actual and perceived.  I think we can all agree that Boost is not a Leopold agent! :p

Thank you for the clarification.

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:58:00 »
I was talking about this image on the RedLine site specifically.

Offline tsangan

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:02:05 »
I think it is now :P lolz

You sure lolz/lulz a lot don't hurt yourself now
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Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:03:10 »
I just ran a gb for the lzgh and I helped with the shipping of the gundam in the USA. Thats all I did. No profit. kinda in the negative.

I was talking about this image on the RedLine site specifically.
Show Image


Lolz :P

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:03:44 »
I think it is now :P lolz

You sure lolz/lulz a lot don't hurt yourself now

It's how I relieve stress

lolz :P

Offline tsangan

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:04:53 »
[quote au
I think it is now :P lolz

You sure lolz/lulz a lot don't hurt yourself now

It's how I relieve stress

lolz :P


Go lolz elsewhere please no not spam this thread
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:13:58 »
What if you are classified as a business by the IRS, but not for your keyboard hobby activities?

I'm not saying I fall into this category currently, but I formerly had tried to start a small business (DBA), but even if I were currently making an income from that enterprise, it would have zero to do with whether I sell a few keyboards that I assembled.

I think this is obvious, but it might be one of those case-by-case judgement calls, yes?
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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:18:07 »
What if you are classified as a business by the IRS, but not for your keyboard hobby activities?

I'm not saying I fall into this category currently, but I formerly had tried to start a small business (DBA), but even if I were currently making an income from that enterprise, it would have zero to do with whether I sell a few keyboards that I assembled.

I think this is obvious, but it might be one of those case-by-case judgement calls, yes?

I think they way samwisekoi was saying, is that's just an example. look at the wording, "according to IRS regulations would be classified as a business." The way I interpret that, it's IF you're making enough to classify it as a business, you'd fall under Vendor status.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:20:47 »
I thought it was fairly obvious it was meant to be keyboard and keyboard related vendors... Unless you're specifically using these forums to put a spotlight on said business.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:33:02 »
This is what I have been waiting for. ;)

Thank you~~
Even though I have made/assembled/tuned HUNDREDs of keyboards for others, I myself don't have a full-tuned Custom Keyboard now.
So Ironical!

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:34:46 »
I was talking about this image on the RedLine site specifically.
Show Image


Yes, he's a a new member overseas operationer.  I saw that previously, but I thought you had background I lacked.  I have to admit avoiding drama on other keyboard forums, so there may have been more to the story than I've heard.

What if you are classified as a business by the IRS, but not for your keyboard hobby activities?

I'm not saying I fall into this category currently, but I formerly had tried to start a small business (DBA), but even if I were currently making an income from that enterprise, it would have zero to do with whether I sell a few keyboards that I assembled.

I think this is obvious, but it might be one of those case-by-case judgement calls, yes?


Also, if you can afford mechanical keyboards, let alone customizing them, lets assume you make some money doing something somwhere.  And if you sell flowers or timeshares, it doesn't matter here unless you do it here.

Nah.  If you sell timeshares [explitive deleted], thank you very much.

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 22:46:56 »
Alrighty fair enough. I was just conforming what I felt. The drama basically was the Korean communities are non-profit and Redline made money on a community design, the AIKON, when creating the A87. (I believe A87 is the PCB)

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 07:57:52 »
1.b "  b. Any individual, entity, or representative of an entity that profits from sales, services, or group buying activities."

If a GB organizer gets a free X (often times GB organizers get a free set of caps) doesn't this constitute a profit?

Only if as a whole, a net profit was made on the entire buy.

Suggestion: reword to 'Any individual, or representative of an individual or group of individuals whose primary goal is the long-term realization of profit in keyboard-related products and/or services.'

Why the change? A forum member who clearly represents a business could fail to make a profit, and then could not be considered a vendor. A niggling detail, but it might make things clearer. If I sell a CC that I purchased for $30 for $70, I'm probably doing it because I've tired of it, the CC has failed to help me reach Self-Actualization as I hoped. I'm selling the clack, the keyboard, etc. for the sake of furthering my hobby -- I'll probably use the proceeds to buy something else, personally. Or, maybe I'm out of the hobby, and selling off stuff to try to get some of my money back as an individual. I imagine a vendor as someone having a website with a shopping cart, or some other method of collecting money.

EDIT -- added 'keyboard related goods and/or services.'
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 May 2013, 08:01:00 by Krogenar »
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Offline domoaligato

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 10:46:07 »
Anyone have/know/is a lawyer? I am suggesting maybe to have one look at this and make suggestions.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 10:47:49 »
Anyone have/know/is a lawyer? I am suggesting maybe to have one look at this and make suggestions.

As an attorney, can I just say this thread is very entertaining.


Offline Tym

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 10:53:39 »
Do we need anymore depth,  I mean Sam has said many time; the main points are be polite (as a vendor) could we not just classify vendors as people with sub-threads on the forum?
unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:53:35 »
how do I apply?

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 08:42:43 »
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 08:53:40 »
how do I apply?

PM the mods I guess.

I already did once and got no response so I thought I would post here.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 08:58:54 »
how do I apply?

PM the mods I guess.

I already did once and got no response so I thought I would post here.

If your not making money then don't worry about it, nobody seems to be able to give us any straight answers right now.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 10:45:57 »
I intend to make money.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 15:42:47 »
I intend to make money.

I appreciate the honesty and straight-forwardness

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 15:46:03 »
I intend to make money.

I appreciate the honesty and straight-forwardness

Good point. But the good business thing to say would have been:

"I will sell my products at a very low, competitive cost, which will be very close to production costs. That means that I'll sell you a zinc keycap single for $5."
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 15:55:14 »
I intend to make a profit after paying for all the costs of my equipment, supplies and R&D costs

that is what I should have said.

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Re: Vendor Terms of Service (VTOS)
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 02 September 2013, 19:00:17 »
I intend to make a profit after paying for all the costs of my equipment, supplies and R&D costs

that is what I should have said.

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