Author Topic: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems  (Read 38588 times)

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Offline Hyde

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:08:22 »
I can attest to this, this happened to one of my EDRUG MIX (I think they changed name now) which is a PBT set, luckily only 1 key's stem cracked, rest are fine so far.

I also replaced my Box Red with Gateron Yellow so I'm future proofed now lol.

But yes they do crack stems.

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Offline Rumblehotep

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:47:52 »
They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:49:58 »
They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?

You could just get the non-box dark yellow
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-speed-heavy-switches?variant=3747975200808
:)

Offline Rumblehotep

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 13:00:02 »
Ah thanks, didn't even realize they had those.
Man they make a lot of switches

Online portbaron

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 15:39:00 »
They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?

You could just get the non-box dark yellow
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-speed-heavy-switches?variant=3747975200808
Those do have reduced travel compared to box yellows though. Maybe these Pro heavy Berrys are more like them:
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-pro-heavys
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 26 July 2018, 20:08:15 »
This is very interesting.  On the one single board I have with BOX switches -- Hako Trues -- I have only been using a vintage Cherry doubleshot set, which is naturally a bit more loose fitting than the new GMK sets, so no problems there.  I have a few accent caps that are GMK (3 CMYK caps and a couple of 3C "salmon" pink caps from the Muted accent kits), and all stems are intact except a crack in the yellow short Shift stem.  I can't verify if this crack happened long ago, as I got the CMYK set second hand years ago.  I guess I'll continue using vintage Cherry and GMK sets instead of new GMK sets on BOX switches.  Will test some "OG" Dolch keycaps soon and XDA Canvas.

Disappointing news, as I had Kailh BOX Violets waiting for a build and also an order for Novelias.
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Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 01:09:53 »
200666-0

What's more shocking to me is that these switches have special springs, I hoped/assumed it would be standard springs, but in hindsight, slimmer springs make sense, I wish they produce heavier springs for them too, my dream of putting cherry mx gray springs in these were torn

Also the springs are non-lubed, they ping, so they have to be lubed, so maybe in the new batch, they can factory lube them
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Offline redleaf

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 01:53:48 »
Guess I will have to keep an eye on my stems now.

Offline audax989

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 03:22:27 »


****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 03:44:16 »
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there

I agreed about this, because i am not quite sure why this happened when talk with Kailh sales.

Kailh already doing the internal investigation about this, maybe they will post some official statement after all the data collected.

Today, Kailh send this internal measurement of their switches, in case anyone want to see :






Online otanishock

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 04:49:21 »
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 04:55:01 »
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...

Massdrop finds a way to deliver the most defunct version of everything, got some MX Blues from them in the early days, you wouldn't believe how defective they are, 99.99% factory rejects

So if people complain about 1.33mm, expect 1.5mm width switches that will rip your stems from inside out :)
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Online otanishock

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 05:29:50 »
Well....****
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...

Massdrop finds a way to deliver the most defunct version of everything, got some MX Blues from them in the early days, you wouldn't believe how defective they are, 99.99% factory rejects

So if people complain about 1.33mm, expect 1.5mm width switches that will rip your stems from inside out :)

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Offline Bella_Hwang

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 06:10:04 »
We really hope one of the crackers can check measure of their stems and below attachment file is our official box switch stem size.

We offer more better products for your guys to try and we also pay attention to the questions that you guys pointed out.

Our company already set about doing internal inspection,we'll give a offical statement after all the data collected;

Thanks!




« Last Edit: Mon, 30 July 2018, 19:55:07 by Bella_Hwang »
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Offline mounds

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:01:57 »
This whole 'stemgate' business is quite a shocker. Novelias and Navies on the way, probably just going to immediately turn to /r/mechmarket to avoid the issues... 
 
Otherwise, the option is to test each and every switch out for tolerance right? I've done QA work before, and had to check on QA work before - sometimes QA folks see through rose-colored glasses on glaring issues, while others do excellent work.

Hard to say the whole lot is immediately bad but still begs the question as to why the anecdotal evidence is so strong against Kailh?
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Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:13:59 »
I'm selling my box switches on r/mm but I'd be more than happy to buy more if Kailh can rework the stems to be smaller.  I like the switches a lot.  I don't have any calipers to measure, but I would be willing to send off some of my switches that have cracked stems to be measured.
:)

Offline manofinterests

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:46:54 »
Hi Bella_Hwang,

I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.

You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests

I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.

Offline HotRoderX

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 12:22:54 »
Hmm has anyone looked at this from another point of view? I am just trying to cover all angles. What if the issue isn't the box switches but instead keycap's are out of tolerances.

Thinking behind this is the following.
Seems to be happening only with Maxkey's ((Which seem to have QC issues left and right)) and GMK the defecto standard for quality.
But its just strange that this issue doesn't seem to appear with any other keysets we know of. Also it doesn't happen with all GMK keysets. I mean has anyone tested JTK? I know people said enjoy was fine. I am wondering if GMK changed/switched out there mods. Tightened tolerances and doing so didn't fully take into account ABS shrink that occurs. I would love to see someone compare the openings of a cracked GMK to a non cracked GMK and see if perhaps the issue is keycaps and not switches.

Hope my post makes since. I know what trying to say but not always the best at taking words and putting them down.

Offline Kavik

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 12:28:13 »
I think an important distinction is that the specs themselves appear too big, so, even if switches are within tolerance according to the spec sheet, they are still bigger than normal MX switches (at least from what I've seen in others' measurements), which appear to be < 1.30 mm on the X-axis.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 14:57:51 »
I really hope one of the crackers can check measure of their stems and compare with our official box switch stem size.

We offer more better products for your guys to try and we also pay attention to the questions that you guys pointed out.

I think an important distinction is that the specs themselves appear too big, so, even if switches are within tolerance according to the spec sheet, they are still bigger than normal MX switches (at least from what I've seen in others' measurements), which appear to be < 1.30 mm on the X-axis.

I agree with Kavik, Kailh provided their measurings like everything's alright, they produced them to spec, but obviously, the spec itself is whacked, no reason to deviate from the lower Cherry MX measurements
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Offline donutcat

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 15:34:19 »
Hmm has anyone looked at this from another point of view? I am just trying to cover all angles. What if the issue isn't the box switches but instead keycap's are out of tolerances.

Thinking behind this is the following.
Seems to be happening only with Maxkey's ((Which seem to have QC issues left and right)) and GMK the defecto standard for quality.
But its just strange that this issue doesn't seem to appear with any other keysets we know of. Also it doesn't happen with all GMK keysets. I mean has anyone tested JTK? I know people said enjoy was fine. I am wondering if GMK changed/switched out there mods. Tightened tolerances and doing so didn't fully take into account ABS shrink that occurs. I would love to see someone compare the openings of a cracked GMK to a non cracked GMK and see if perhaps the issue is keycaps and not switches.

Hope my post makes since. I know what trying to say but not always the best at taking words and putting them down.

I've got this happening with Nuke Data, and other people have shown their OG caps as well as I think some ePBT and some Taihao caps, so it's not just GMK. Another thing to consider is that Kailh's spec itself is different from Cherry's spec, which it really shouldn't be. If your goal is to make switches that will work with caps that are designed to work with Cherry switches, your own spec should be similar to Cherry spec, otherwise it makes sense that there would be tolerance issues. GMK makes sense having the highest incidence rate as it's no surprise that original Cherry cap molds would be made to fit Cherry switches and would be more sensitive to the difference than caps that weren't designed as close to OG Cherry spec.

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 15:46:39 »
Whelp, I just happened to stumble across this by researching a comment on Massdrop and boy am I pissed right now.

I just built a board with GMK Laser on Box Navy switches for that retro clicky action, and in addition to the headache of having to desolder and resolder a few of the switches that had that stem twist issue where the keycap would sit cockeyed, I pulled a few caps at random to find that they all had those stress marks (although no cracks, yet) on them.

Even if you don't plan on moving your caps around, it's not uncommon to spend quite a bit on something nice like a GMK set, so to have my $100+ purchase damaged by the board I put it on doesn't sit well with me at all, especially since there's literally no way to know until it's too late and the damage is done.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 July 2018, 16:06:26 by LevelSteam »

Offline mounds

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 16:58:02 »
 :( :( :( :( :( 
   
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
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Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 17:01:56 »
:( :( :( :( :( 
   
Epic sadness on the Laser set!

Yeah, that really stings to be honest. I also happened to be chatting with an erickong on Massdrop about it that took these measurements, the black switches are box blacks, reds are gateron:

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 17:13:14 »
:( :( :( :( :( 
   
Epic sadness on the Laser set!

Yeah, that really stings to be honest. I also happened to be chatting with an erickong on Massdrop about it that took these measurements, the black switches are box blacks, reds are gateron:

DO you have measurements for the other direction.  It's the West-East stems that seem to be the thickest
:)

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 18:33:00 »
They said theyre going to do more measurements later. As if right now those are the only numbers I have.

Online portbaron

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 19:10:19 »
Time for the file mod.
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Offline Skaazi

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 27 July 2018, 22:21:29 »
Grabbed a couple measurements myself. By no means is this a thorough measuring but it definitely deserves more examination.

Zilent 67g vs Box Jade:




Offline befbef

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #79 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 00:30:27 »
Could anyone measure Kailh speed stems please? Or do you we have data already?
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 July 2018, 01:33:16 by befbef »

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #80 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 00:52:58 »
I think that the non-box Kailhs are safe.

Offline Lansky

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 07:17:15 »
Guess I'll be holding off on installing my BOX Navies for now then...  :'(
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #82 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 10:00:27 »
Could anyone measure Kailh speed stems please? Or do you we have data already?

I've used speed with my nautilus caps already, and taking them off, they look fine.  I think as someone said, it's just the box that have a problem.
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Offline crzone

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #83 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 10:20:26 »
I had SA Oblivion on Box Navy switches on a TKL board. I removed them from the board and installed them on my Vortex Vibe with MX Clears. All the switches that were on the TKL were very easy to install. However the Numpad kit that was never used before was noticeably harder to insert, 4-5 caps required further pushing in order to be level with the others. I don't have a way to measure the Box switches I have (a set of Navys and a set of Royals plus a tester from KBDFans) but they definitely made the SP caps looser. There doesn't seem to be any damage though.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 11:14:27 »
I'm wondering if it could be something about the surrounded box area.  Maybe the stem normally expands in a nice circular shape, but the surrounding box won't allow that, causing stress fractures at the weakest points?  Maybe we'll find out some day
:)

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 11:21:59 »
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #86 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 12:20:17 »
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.

It's worth doing, but I'd think if the tolerances were off in length or width, it just wouldn't fit.
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Online voight-kampff

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #87 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 13:31:36 »
What if not the box stems, or the keycap stems measurements are wrong?

It could also be that the ABS / PBS or other plastic material is not the same, and / or is iconsistent, some more prone to cracking?

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #88 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:28:27 »
What if not the box stems, or the keycap stems measurements are wrong?

It could also be that the ABS / PBS or other plastic material is not the same, and / or is iconsistent, some more prone to cracking?

but why is it happening on box switches only is the question then.  Even if they are "in spec" but cracking stems, it seems the design is wrong.

Keep in mind, I've been swapping key sets for years.  I have close to 40 boards with all kinds of switches.  I've only had this happen from box switches.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:45:09 by pixelpusher »
:)

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #89 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:10:13 »
Is it all types of box switches, or just some?  That's a question also.

(and for how serious we take keysets, I must say that I'm impressed with the restraint and approach being taken by those affected.)
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Offline Poesjuh

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:19:02 »
Is it all types of box switches, or just some?  That's a question also.

(and for how serious we take keysets, I must say that I'm impressed with the restraint and approach being taken by those affected.)
So far all kinds of boxes. And that restraint, I guess it depends on who you talk to :) Personally Iím a trust person and I lost my trust in box switches with this. Iím desoldering the 2 boards with box blacks in it and already ordered new switches. I do like the switches tho, just not worth the risk to my $150>>> keycap sets :S


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Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:24:58 »
In regard to the "all or just some" question, I had my GMK Oblivion set on some Hako Clears for a bit before moving it back to the Halo Clears on my K-Type and haven't noticed any problems (knock on wood) there. While I didn't pull and examime every cap, the ones I did didn't appear damaged, and felt about as snug as I remember them being (since the Halos seemed to be a bit of a looser fit right out of the box).

Granted that's purely anecdotal, but it might not be every type of box switch that's affected.

Offline a_ak57

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #92 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 00:23:43 »
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.

Too lazy to take pictures but here were my measurements using this caliper (included a Cherry Clear since those are a notoriously tight fit):

Box Royal X-Axis Length:  3.96mm
Cherry Red X-Axis Length:  3.98mm
Cherry Clear X-Axis Length:  3.97mm

Box Royal Y-Axis Length:  3.93mm
Cherry Red Y-Axis Length:  3.98mm
Cherry Clear Y-Axis Length:  3.94mm

So while this wasn't super scientific since I only did one switch each (took the measurements a few times), it's probably still fair to say that it's just the X-axis width of the Box switches causing the issue. 

I actually tried doing width measurements for each of them but found that my numbers differed depending specifically where and at what angle I was measuring along the stem.  I ultimately settled on just holding the caliper completely vertical and flush against the opposing axis, running the full length of the stem (had to break off the box of the Royal).  So take the actual numbers with a grain of salt, but I think for comparison purposes they're somewhat useful at least:

Box Royal X-Axis Width:  1.32mm
Cherry Red X-Axis Width:  1.25mm
Cherry Clear X-Axis Width:  1.25mm

Box Royal Y-Axis Width:  1.10mm
Cherry Red Y-Axis Width:  1.09mm
Cherry Clear Y-Axis Width:  1.20mm

So again, while not very scientific it looks like the Box's X-axis width is the culprit.  But interestingly it seems that the Clear's tight fit is due to the Y-axis width.  So I wonder if that means keycaps are designed to have the same amount of space on both the X and Y axes, as then it'd make sense that the Clears are tight but not to a degree that they do damage (since their Y is still less than the X that the caps would be presumably designed to fit).

Edit:  Decided to try my hand at measuring the inside of a Cherry cap and while it was incredibly difficult to get anything consistent due to the caliper not really fitting (anywhere between 1.21-1.26mm), looks like both axes are pretty close to the same if not so.  So that would explain Cherry Clears.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 July 2018, 00:34:04 by a_ak57 »

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #93 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 07:42:50 »
Thanks for taking the time to do all those measurements! Definitely seems like the x-axis width is the culprit here.

Offline Vox_PT

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #94 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 08:20:03 »
Yup that would be my guess as well. After seeing his measurements I'm also fairly confident that the switch specifications are all about right besides the X-axis width which is thicker than what it should be.

I wonder how long will Kailh take to make a statement regarding these allegations.

Online pvd

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #95 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:36:53 »
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****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.


 :confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?

Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.

Offline audax989

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #96 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:39:14 »
Show Image


****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.


 :confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?

Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.


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Online pvd

  • Posts: 80
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #97 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:42:08 »
Show Image


****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.


 :confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?

Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.

I see it now, that sucks. Damn, I've used box switches on so many of my boards... gonna go pull off my laser set and check right now.
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Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #98 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 13:22:46 »
Are Kailh Box Heavy switches the same?


I have 100 pcs on order with MD now and I asked support if Kailh is aware of the issue and if they are fixing it.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #99 on: Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:07:09 »
Show Image


****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.


 :confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?

Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.

I've put many GMK sets on clears.  They are a complete pain in the ass to put on and take off.  However, my keycaps never had issues with looseness on other stems afterwards.   I very carefully (and quite easily) pressed some GMK Miami Nights caps onto one of each, box red and box brown.  Both times i heard a snap and looked to find a small crack.  Those still fit fine on other stems for now.  I'm guessing in time the cracks would open up more and become looser.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:09:48 by pixelpusher »
:)