Author Topic: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems  (Read 42455 times)

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Offline kolicivan

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Serbia
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #250 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 06:42:57 »
I'm using Cherry vintage Doubleshot keycaps on BOX Navies.
I've been checking a few of the keycaps and none of them showed any issues.
Tested them back on MX Black switches and they all fit snugly.

Maybe Cherry doubleshots don't have this issue like GMK has.

Offline method_

  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Londinium
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #251 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 07:47:37 »
Hmm I have been using Box Pale blue for some time now, never occured to me : /

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2450
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #252 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:18:47 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:35:04 by pixelpusher »
:)

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #253 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:29:00 »

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2450
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #254 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:33:12 »
I'm using Cherry vintage Doubleshot keycaps on BOX Navies.
I've been checking a few of the keycaps and none of them showed any issues.
Tested them back on MX Black switches and they all fit snugly.

Maybe Cherry doubleshots don't have this issue like GMK has.

Very possible.  Thanks for sharing.  The more we know, the better advice we can offer to others.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:34:50 by pixelpusher »
:)

Offline fr8train

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #255 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:13:21 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

Thanks for reading the article!

Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.

I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions

You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
 

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #256 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:30:09 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #257 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:35:50 »
Looking for recommendations of a US vendor that can sell me blank keycaps for my custom layout. 

I just need some cheap keycaps (preferably a muted color) so I'm not sacrificing my nice sets that I have right now and I can still use this keyboard.

edit: I'm not married to a specific profile... so doesn't have to be SA or anything.

This is my layout:
Show Image


Maybe something like this?

https://kprepublic.com/products/9009-colorway-sa-profile-dye-sub-keycap-set-thick-pbt-plastic-keyboard-gh60-xd60-xd84-cospad-tada68-rs96-zz96-87-104-660

Offline fr8train

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #258 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:40:39 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...

That is the Cherry MX spec.

Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #259 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:47:51 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...

That is the Cherry MX spec.


The Cherry specification is not known.

Offline mgsickler

  • Posts: 213
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #260 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:48:33 »

The Cherry specification is not known.

There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.

Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #261 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:58:37 »

The Cherry specification is not known.

There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.


Thank you for the heads up. I have been asking for it since the beginning of this crisis. Seth's article is well documented. I hope the new upcoming switch batch does actually solve the issue. I have 100 units on order.

Offline ErgoMacros

  • Posts: 201
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #262 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 11:49:53 »
From the article he states, just below the table:
Quote
We can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.

Alternate explanations could be:
  • Cherry is producing switches with tighter tolerances than their own spec would allow, and Kaihua may be producing across their full tolerance range.
  • When not "dead on" Cherry switches may "err" on the side of thinner, and Kaihua may "err" on the thicker end of in spec
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 August 2018, 11:57:14 by ErgoMacros »
Today's quote: '...ďbut then the customer successfully broke that.Ē

Offline fr8train

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #263 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:05:35 »
From the article he states, just below the table:
Quote
We can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.

Alternate explanations could be:
  • Cherry is producing switches with tighter tolerances than their own spec would allow, and Kaihua may be producing across their full tolerance range.
  • When not "dead on" Cherry switches may "err" on the side of thinner, and Kaihua may "err" on the thicker end of in spec

An interesting theory, for sure. And it's possible, I suppose, although I think it's unlikely that among the extraordinary number of MX switches that have been manufactured, there's not a quorum that ended up at that max 1.33mm tolerance. Also, even if you're exactly correct, all that means is that there are millions of standard Kailh switches out there that are 1.33mm, but those have not caused a cracking epidemic, and so it stands to reason that 1.33mm is not dangerous.

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 94
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #264 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:18:21 »
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.


Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #265 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:49:38 »
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.


No. The issue is not caused by frequent changes, it is caused by interference and happens even at the first try.

Offline Starius

  • Posts: 242
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #266 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:14:12 »
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.


No. The issue is not caused by frequent changes, it is caused by interference and happens even at the first try.

Yeah, my little test using switch tester keycaps would support your statement.
They were pulled on and off cherry mix switches for months, no sign of wear.
Put them on box switches, and they formed stress marks in just 1 - 2 days. 

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
  • Location: Spain
Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #267 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:45:09 »
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I donít understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?

Offline dgneo

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #268 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:47:23 »
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I donít understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?

It's actually quite recent, date on the spec sheet reads August 10th 2018

🍄

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #269 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:57:31 »
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I donít understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?

It's actually quite recent, date on the spec sheet reads August 10th 2018

Show Image


I noticed the modern logo... but still may have been some years. Itís very very recent. Does anyone has access to the previous one? It would be interesting to see if anything has changed.

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
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Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #270 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 14:05:26 »

The Cherry specification is not known.

There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.


Thank you for the heads up. I have been asking for it since the beginning of this crisis. Seth's article is well documented. I hope the new upcoming switch batch does actually solve the issue. I have 100 units on order.

Weird that the spec sheet is from last week though...

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #271 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:25:04 »
According to Deskthority Wiki, there was no spec sheet info for the stem available for Cherry MX stems.  This could be the first time it's become publicly available.

Edit: Here's the 1985 data sheet they have hosted:
https://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b9/Cherry_MX_datasheet_%28July_1985%29.pdf
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:28:12 by Photoelectric »
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Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #272 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:30:30 »
 ::)


Is there a way to verify the authenticity of the specification? I have read before that the specification was not available.

Offline Kavik

  • Thread Starter
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #273 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:37:35 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

Thanks for reading the article!

Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.

I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions

You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.

User Kavik is a "he" not a "they" by the way ;)

Offline fr8train

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #274 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:51:36 »
::)


Is there a way to verify the authenticity of the specification? I have read before that the specification was not available.

Yes. I got it from Cherry through one of their representatives.

The date on the doc is when they sent it to me. Dunno why they did that, but that's what I'm told. In other words, it's not a brand new specification.

Offline fr8train

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #275 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:53:14 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

Thanks for reading the article!

Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.

I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions

You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.

User Kavik is a "he" not a "they" by the way ;)

Good to know, thx. :) SOP for journalists is to never assume gender with forum names, hence the "they/them" pronouns. I can change it in the article copy if you prefer he/him?

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #276 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 16:52:25 »
According to Deskthority Wiki, there was no spec sheet info for the stem available for Cherry MX stems.  This could be the first time it's become publicly available.

Edit: Here's the 1985 data sheet they have hosted:
https://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b9/Cherry_MX_datasheet_%28July_1985%29.pdf

Didn't the patent just expire?  Wouldn't there have to be a spec sheet to patent it in the first place?
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Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #277 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 16:54:12 »
In kailh switches both axis are bigger than the specs, while in cherry switches the thickness of the Y axis is very small. This means that a deformation caused by the thickness of the X axis is mitigated by the fact that Y axis is small. Many of you won't be able to visualize this deformation, but I can assure you that it's like I'm saying.

I'm disgusted by the article of that guy. I don't know his name and I don't want to remember him. I just want to ask him to move away. Go back in a dumpster

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #278 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 17:14:09 »
If that spec doc is correct all my Cherry switches are out of spec including tolerances.

And how would a manufacturer change the drawn date on a technical doc to the date it was sent? Makes no sense to me.

Offline killyou

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Poland
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #279 on: Thu, 16 August 2018, 19:43:05 »
And how would a manufacturer change the drawn date on a technical doc to the date it was sent? Makes no sense to me.
That should be printed/plotted date instead of drawn date. They probably have a rule configured to put the latest date whenever you open the file. I'm doing that as well except for print date as I've mentioned in the beginning.

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 602
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #280 on: Fri, 17 August 2018, 03:33:23 »
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/

Read it.  Was enraged.  Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure.  But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?

It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying.  He thinks the problem is not widespread.  He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.

The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems.  But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board.  We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come. 

This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"

Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice?  Hell no.  You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches.  End of story.  Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps.  They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried.  I have tried EVERY box switch.  2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times.   The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing.  Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well.  But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.

PS, still have 900 switches to sell.

Hate to point out this overly obvious fact but.. the community on geekhack and reddit. Is just a small portion of the WORLD WIDE community. I mean honestly we counted up all the people who reported this issue. Then compared it to a list of people who bought box switches from Novelkey's over the last 12 months. I bet it be less then 3%. I can argue he has to be one of the biggest sellers of box switches. Then there is the fact that cherry released there own specs and the differences is almost nothing. I think there more to this issue. I think people are way to quick to jump on box switches. I mean what are the Korean keyboard community's saying? Japanese Keyboard Communities? I can't help but wonder if there saying the same things everyone on Geekhack and Reddit are saying. The guys article was pretty legit. I mean if someone can bring hard evidence to bare against it. Then lets see it by hard evidence. I don't mean someone saying my switches broke my stims. Thats not hard evidence that doesn't prove anything. All that does is prove there was a issue some were.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #281 on: Fri, 17 August 2018, 05:09:03 »
People still negate that box switches break keycaps.

This makes me sad because it's the definitive proof that humans suck, but at the same time this makes any competition much easier  :)) suckers

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #282 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 08:52:52 »

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #283 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:32:03 »
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX

https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade

Yeah... I hear that Mike is supposed to be getting in some next week also, so this jives.
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Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #284 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:38:19 »
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX

https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade

Yeah... I hear that Mike is supposed to be getting in some next week also, so this jives.

Great, hope someone can do some testing soon...

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #285 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:43:15 »
God forgive them, because they don't understand that
the cracking is caused by a combination of the increased thickness of the X and of the Y axis of the switch
The punishment will come with the fallen angel, the destroyer of keycaps. Their precious og sets will crack, and the sets of their sons will crack too until the seventh generation is born.

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 94
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #286 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 10:33:17 »
Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with cracked keycap stems.
Genesis 6:11

Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #287 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 13:24:53 »
Someone close to KBD Fans should ask them to run some trials to verify is this new version does actually solve the keycap stem's cracking problem.

Offline mkarlsson

  • Posts: 271
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #288 on: Sun, 19 August 2018, 14:31:19 »
I asked on the KBDfans Discord server about it. None from KBDfans responeded, but user phong said that he saw somewhere that Mike from NovelKeys would be testing it this weekend.

Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #289 on: Sun, 19 August 2018, 14:54:38 »
I asked on the KBDfans Discord server about it. None from KBDfans responeded, but user phong said that he saw somewhere that Mike from NovelKeys would be testing it this weekend.


Great.

Offline petamva

  • Posts: 27
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #290 on: Sun, 19 August 2018, 23:42:23 »
In the meantime has anyone attempted a fix on the cracked stems?

Offline Lansky

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #291 on: Mon, 20 August 2018, 04:44:26 »
These were posted on the KBDfans Discord server (not mine), measuring the re-tooled stem.



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Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #292 on: Mon, 20 August 2018, 15:51:39 »
Still too much. They clearly don't have an engineering degree, so they don't understand that the X axis is too big, and that the Y axis has an influence on the cracking too. Plus they didn't take into account the thermal dilation (the dilation of the mold and of the stem - keycaps complex).

Offline WheresTheSNES

  • Posts: 58
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #293 on: Fri, 24 August 2018, 13:14:59 »
Any of you all try out the new switches?  Or are you not anxious to break more keycaps?

Offline Starius

  • Posts: 242
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #294 on: Fri, 24 August 2018, 13:47:01 »
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 August 2018, 13:50:11 by Starius »

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 602
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #295 on: Sun, 26 August 2018, 14:19:21 »
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.

did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.

Offline Starius

  • Posts: 242
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #296 on: Sun, 26 August 2018, 17:31:09 »
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.

did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.

I have to say, it's looking good so far. 
I've had the keycap on for 2 days now with no visible signs of stress on the keycap stem.   With all the other box switches I tried this on before, they showed signs either after the first day or two.  I'll probably leave it on for a couple more days here to be sure, but so far it's looking like these new Box Jade switches are safe.

So, kudos to NovelKeys for getting these changed in a pretty quick period of time.   

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 602
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #297 on: Sun, 26 August 2018, 18:15:36 »
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.

did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.

I have to say, it's looking good so far. 
I've had the keycap on for 2 days now with no visible signs of stress on the keycap stem.   With all the other box switches I tried this on before, they showed signs either after the first day or two.  I'll probably leave it on for a couple more days here to be sure, but so far it's looking like these new Box Jade switches are safe.

So, kudos to NovelKeys for getting these changed in a pretty quick period of time.

please keep us updated I am curious and please keep eye on the caps for least a few months. I am not 100% sure still it was just the switches. I mean the switch stims most likely did play a role. I am not going to say they didn't at this point. Only I wonder if the tolerances on the caps were to tight. They were stretching on cherry stims. Just going from Cherry stim to a obviously bigger stim. Causes a much bigger issue. Hope that makes since but thanks for keeping us updated.

Offline Hayte

  • Posts: 23
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #298 on: Tue, 18 September 2018, 15:52:03 »
Does any retailer in the EU even sell the new stem switches yet? I'm still using 25 euro Tai Hao ABS doubleshots (which all cracked immediately when putting them on box whites except for the spacebar).

Offline Lansky

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #299 on: Tue, 18 September 2018, 16:33:28 »
Does any retailer in the EU even sell the new stem switches yet? I'm still using 25 euro Tai Hao ABS doubleshots (which all cracked immediately when putting them on box whites except for the spacebar).

CandyKeys seem to have pre-order option (atleast for Royals):
https://www.candykeys.com/product/novelkeys-box-royal

Norbaforce 88UB (BKE Heavy, silenced), Singa R2 (Retooled MX Blacks w/ 68g CWW springs), LZ GH V2 (V1 Zealios 67g)