Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems

[Kavik]

On my keyboard with Kailh BOX Navy switches, one of the arrow keys kept wiggling off. I noticed the stem had cracks on two sides. I put Gorilla Glue on the stem and clamped it with a vice grip, and it help the problem a bit when I placed it back on the keyboard.

I decided to switch from a Maxkey SA set to a GMK set. I noticed twelve keycaps with cracked stems and a few others with white stress marks on them when I removed the SA set.

Upon removing the GMK set, I saw none of the keycaps were cracked, but almost all of them had white stress marks on the stems in the horizontal section of the cross. They were also harder to pull off of BOX switches than from Cherry or Zealio switches.

I think there are possibly three things at play:
1. BOX switches' cross stems are too thick and stress or crack normal sized keycap stems. I found one other recent mention of this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8ph0zw/kailh_box_navy_switches_damaging_keycaps/).
2. Despite having a better reputation, wire keycap pullers put a little bit of twisting motion on a keycap as it's lifted.
3. Maxkey keycaps may be slightly more fragile than other brands. I have found at least one other mention of this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8dk5t3/maxkeys_ob_cracked_stems/)

Is anyone else noticing this?

P.S. I wasn't sure if this belongs in Keyboards or Keycaps forum.

[lemur]

I've used SP SA, Maxkeys SA, and GMK caps on various types of BOX switches (black, yellow, pale blue, royal, navy) and havent noticed any cracks..

I don't use a wire keycap puller, I use one of the type that comes with the ibm 'pingmaster' boards.. they seem pretty gentle on the keys... 




edit: the maxkeys set I have is the 'White on Black' set that everyone seems to have.. made before the legends were updated.. so it has BACK SPACE..

[Zuology]

I have 4 sets of Maxkey SA (Cyan on White, Ashen, Ninja, Cyan Dolch), all pre-legends fix, and have noticed stem cracking on a number of the keys across various sets. I've unmounted and remounted them a number of times, over 10x each set probably, so I could chalk it up to my not being gentle enough due to being new/inexperienced. I can't say for certain whether or not Box switches specifically are the culprit, because I only have one board with Box Burnt Orange at the moment. FWIW, the caps with the cracks/stress lines all fit a bit loose, but can easily be remedied by a small piece of thin plastic bag or tissue paper to shim it on the switch stems.

[pixelpusher]

I sent my maxkey Lime set back because a lot of them had cracked stems.  I did try them on a box switch once. Maybe that’s what did it

[Rumblehotep]

BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple  check your orientation

[Sup]

Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.

[portbaron]

I haven't noticed it, but I don't swap keycaps really once I put them on.

[monkt]

BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple  check your orientation

Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.

What is it about the box switches that might cause this? The box structure itself shouldn't really have anything to do with it since that isn't the part that connects with the keycap, I think. So is it just that the stems on these switches are either inconsistent, or else uniformly just a little bit bigger in some respect? If uniform, it would seem to be a design issue. If inconsistent, then a QC issue. It would be really useful to know which is the case, and whether or not it affects all box variants. And what about other Kailh, non-box switches?


I've been wanting to branch out and try some of these, but given the price of keycap sets I'm not sure I'm comfortable taking the chance. Not until there's more evidence one way or another.

[portbaron]

BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple  check your orientation

Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.

What is it about the box switches that might cause this? The box structure itself shouldn't really have anything to do with it since that isn't the part that connects with the keycap, I think. So is it just that the stems on these switches are either inconsistent, or else uniformly just a little bit bigger in some respect? If uniform, it would seem to be a design issue. If inconsistent, then a QC issue. It would be really useful to know which is the case, and whether or not it affects all box variants. And what about other Kailh, non-box switches?


I've been wanting to branch out and try some of these, but given the price of keycap sets I'm not sure I'm comfortable taking the chance. Not until there's more evidence one way or another.

Box switches are great, don't let this discourage you unless you have a habit of moving the same keyset around to different boards every month for some reason (why do this?). This will wear out keys on any stem. Box switches stems are slightly thicker I think, sort of like how MX clears are often tighter to get keycaps on.
The only 2 keycaps I've had break were on normal cherry mx switches; the stem on a ducky Tab key that I had moved around about 5 times, and a cheap chinese xda return key I moved about 4 times. I've never had any artisans.

[Puddsy]

waiting for "mounted once on box switches" to appear on mm

[suddenZenith]

Would this be a problem with PBT caps? They are harder so wouldn't that make them less prone to this kind of issue?

[pixelpusher]

so get this...

I've had my hyperfuse V1 GMK set on box blacks for almost a year now.  I went to put them on a different board and HOLY CRAP... they FALL OFF the switches when I turn the board upside down.  This happens on kailh non-box switches as well as gateron and cherry.  booo

There is definitely something going on.

TL:DR  If you put GMK caps on box switches, better be prepared to keep them there

A little video for you.  This is sad and hilarious at the same time I guess:

[portbaron]

That looks like some good evidence right there then. Glad I don't move caps from board to board then, I just get more boards lol.

[portbaron]

Edit - double post. Time to try a full saran wrap mod.

[Captain Shwah]

I just confirmed that 15 of the caps on my E6 have cracks , it's built with Box Dark Yellows and GMK 9009.

All of the cracks are on the east and west sides of the stems, not north or south. I can't take a closeup shot but to my eyes it seems that the lateral cross is a bit thicker on the boxes than on the clears I have sitting next to me.

[SpAmRaY]

Guess I can cross box switches off my list no way I'm risking keycaps cracking this is crazy stuff.

[Kevadu]

This is quite deprrssing.  I like box switches but I don't want them damaging my keycaps.  Has anyone tried shaving/sanding down the stems?

[Overchecken8]

so get this...

I've had my hyperfuse V1 GMK set on box blacks for almost a year now.  I went to put them on a different board and HOLY CRAP... they FALL OFF the switches when I turn the board upside down.  This happens on kailh non-box switches as well as gateron and cherry.  booo

There is definitely something going on.

TL:DR  If you put GMK caps on box switches, better be prepared to keep them there

A little video for you.  This is sad and hilarious at the same time I guess:

I put a couple artisans on my little macropad with box jades and noticed it was a REALLY tight fit. Like I thought the stem was going to break with how tight it was. Immediately took them off and put them on another with zealios and the fit was fine.

[pixelpusher]

Could be a time issue.  Maybe you have to keep them on the switches for a decent length of time before it does damage. I have hako trues on my canoe with GMK nautilus. Sad to say that my nautilus set is quite loose on standard mx switches now.  Darn it.

 I also like a lot of the new box switches. Besides the  box black build I have 80-100 of each:
Box brown
Box red
Box white
Box jade
Box navy
Box royal
Hako true
Hako clear
Hako Royal
Hako violet

Er, not wanting to do the math, but I’ve put a lot of money into box switches lately.  I had plans to build with most of these.  I don’t know what to do now.

[Kavik]

Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.

[Draic]

Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.

Stop buying box switches. Warn people of the problems with them.

[HotRoderX]

Question could this be a issue with newer box switches? I have some older box blacks there almost a year old now. I have used verity of keycap's with them. I checked and none of the stems were cracked. Also the keycap's aren't super lose but there not insanely snug either. I can easily pull a keycap off with just my fingers using minimal force ((Which is ill advised)), but should give ya idea of tightness. I would also say my MX clear's I am typing on are much much snugger fitting. They almost have a death grip on caps.

[Poesjuh]

Just checked the two boards with box blacks that I have. One is a compact 1800, had GMK 9009 R2 on it, never took it off once. 16 stems cracked.
The other was a 60% with gmk honeywell on it that I bought secondhand and I took of twice myself, 20 stems cracked.

Not really sure where I'm gonna go from here. For now I took the sets of and replaced them with PBT keycap sets. Main question for me now is do I desolder and swap switches or not.

[portbaron]

I'd only be worried if keycaps actually broke while on the board without removing them.

[Giorgio]

I'd only be worried if keycaps actually broke while on the board without removing them.

 

[Giorgio]

Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.

Stop buying box switches. Warn people of the problems with them.

[Poesjuh]

Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?

[JoeriW]

Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?

My Godspeed caps appear to be fine, only have been on Box switches since I got them. Changed multiple times. They do have a looser fit on their own so I guess that's why they don't crack.

[portbaron]

Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?

I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.

[dgneo]

glad i've gotten rid of all my boards with box switches in them

[PoochZag]

Is it fair to say that if you only keep a set on different keyboards with BOX switches, it will be fine? Or does this initial cracking make even going from BOX to BOX boards an issue?

[Poesjuh]

I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[portbaron]

I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm going to test it. I have 4 boards now with box switches (GMK, TaiHao, and SP SA caps) and 2 upcoming builds I'm going to put modded box switches in. I don't swap keycaps once I put them on boards, so check back in a few years to see what happened lol.

[pixelpusher]

I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm going to say that they would be fine on box switches.  I'm going to say they will "work" on non-box but sometimes need a saran wrap mod

[pixelpusher]

Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?

I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.

I think SA from Signature Plastics will be okay.  As others have stated, they tend to be a bit looser from the start.  The only SA that I personally had cracked was my SA Lime maxkey set. 

[portbaron]

Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?

I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.

I think SA from Signature Plastics will be okay.  As others have stated, they tend to be a bit looser from the start.  The only SA that I personally had cracked was my SA Lime maxkey set.

Lime had some QC issues all around, at least some batches.
Anyway I've got gmk plum on whites and SA hyperfuse on navys. These clicks are too good to not use, caps be damned. Typing on cherry blues makes me cringe now.

[Ophidios]

Just thought I'd jump in and add some perspective - we've been discussing this pretty extensively in a private Slack.

I had been using DSA Hana on BOX Blacks for months in my Planck. And I've done a _lot_ with that board - removing the caps to play with new caps for a day or two, putting them back on, etc. They're currently sitting on vintage Blacks now, and they're tight as hell. In light of all this I went ahead and inspected the stems, and don't see any cracks on a single one of them.

To contrast that, I have DSA Infinity sitting on vintage Blacks on a 60% board of mine, and they fit fine. When I tried installing them onto vintage Blacks in my Let's Split, some of them are loose or flip off when typing like shown in the earlier video - they've never touched BOX switches.

I'm not saying that there isn't something going on with BOX switches, per se. But I do think that stem/cap variations and fitment will differ even amongst the same types of switches. I think perhaps it's possible that we are unfairly attributing this to BOX switches. Probably should gather more data before jumping to any conclusions or starting an anti-BOX switch movement.

Right now we are working with a small amount of anecdotal evidence. Anyone with a micrometer that could possibly add some evidence?

[pixelpusher]

Mike said he has contacted Kailh for more information.  Seems to be mostly relevant to GMK caps with a few SA outliers so user beware until we hear further.  Even if you do have issues with loosening or cracks, you'll still be able to use them on box switches, so it isn't a total bust.

[pixelpusher]

Just got in some new box red and brown.  Put GMK miami nights on them.  This is the first time I've put miami nights on a box switch.  I HEARD them crack when I put them on.  A quiet snap.  I only did 3.  I pulled them right back off and looked.

At first I thought they were fine.  However, upon further inspection, it appears they all cracked.

I must emphasis that the crack is VERY hard to see at times.  You can actually feel it better than see it.  I used some tweezers to rub around the stem and I could feel the slight, thin crack.  You can see it better if you insert blunt/rounded tweezers into the stem and apply a small amount of pressure to open up the crack. 

They still fit snugly on my cherry MX switches right now.  So, I'm guessing they loosen or crack when you first put them on and then after time and typing, they crack/loosen more. 

I'm not using GMK on box anymore.

[Plean]

I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/

[Poesjuh]

I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/

Good stuff!!

[pixelpusher]

I got a ton of switches to sell.  Don't scare everyone off just yet!

[KHAANNN]

After my Reddit answer, managed to fix my caliper and to my extreme luck, there was a pack of best before 2010 LR44's lying around nearby

So basically the Y-axis is a no issue

Comparing my new Box Naxy's from YMDK to an existing Cherry MX Blue/Gray, the measurements seem 1.26-1.27 to 1.33-1.34, so there's that additional 0.07mm there

Still, testing actual GMK Dolch keycaps, putting them on, pulling them by hand, I don't notice a major issue, tho the virgin F5 I've been testing became very loose now, however it still grips both cherry/gateron/kailh - I wonder if we lube the switches with a thin lube before putting them on, it would be helpful - having bought just one second hand keyboard and keycap-set before, I know that treatment differs from person to person a lot, that was a shocking experience, and being a gentle costar guy, I hope these switches will treat me good

I really can't believe GMK's cracked too, some of my tests were very extreme in the past, none of mine gave up

I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there

[pixelpusher]

After my Reddit answer, managed to fix my caliper and to my extreme luck, there was a pack of best before 2010 LR44's lying around nearby

So basically the Y-axis is a no issue

Comparing my new Box Naxy's from YMDK to an existing Cherry MX Blue/Gray, the measurements seem 1.26-1.27 to 1.33-1.34, so there's that additional 0.07mm there

Still, testing actual GMK Dolch keycaps, putting them on, pulling them by hand, I don't notice a major issue, tho the virgin F5 I've been testing became very loose now, however it still grips both cherry/gateron/kailh - I wonder if we lube the switches with a thin lube before putting them on, it would be helpful - having bought just one second hand keyboard and keycap-set before, I know that treatment differs from person to person a lot, that was a shocking experience, and being a gentle costar guy, I hope these switches will treat me good

I really can't believe GMK's cracked too, some of my tests were very extreme in the past, none of mine gave up

I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there

No calipers to measure with, but it's happened to me with box blacks from a year ago, as well as box red and box brown that I ordered last week. 

The ones that cracked yesterday on the reds and browns still fit fine on normal mx stems even though I heard them crack and could see it.

I'm guessing it takes time after the first crack for them to become loose.  Perhaps the crack gets worse with additional mounting or typing

These are 3 sets of GMK caps.  No issues with ePBT that I can tell.

[KHAANNN]

I'll likely avoid them too, it's quite a shame, they were pretty good, and quite expensive too - If Kailh reads this, goddamn make the new ones with black bottoms so we can differentiate them!

[rainb1ood]

I've checked mine, using box blacks on a filco I modded, new GMK (the mods im using) has crack and the OG cherry doubleshots don't have cracks.

[SpAmRaY]

Here's another thought does it matter if the caps have been used before?

Like maybe they get put on regular mx first then used some and then get out on boxe switches later? Does that make a difference?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[KHAANNN]

That certainly can make a difference, nice idea, because I had one Ctrl that was pretty lose on the Box switches too

I hoped, maybe GMK relaxed things a bit lately, but pixelpusher's V1 Hyperfuse had cracks too

[rainb1ood]

Here's another thought does it matter if the caps have been used before?

Like maybe they get put on regular mx first then used some and then get out on boxe switches later? Does that make a difference?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

the GMK that cracked on mine was from Ivan's CMYK mods GB that I have used on several cherry MX switches, but I have no way of knowing if this crack happened after box switches.

[pixelpusher]

Mike said that he was going to ask Kaihua about it.  Understandable, since box switches have become his livelihood.  I certainly hope they address the concerns.  And yes, if they do change their molds down the road, I would hope there could be some way to tell which is which.

I also really like the box switches.  In fact,  I have 10 bags, over 1000 switches of most box varieties sitting right beside me.  I've used and liked almost all of them on hotswap boards.  I've just been waiting and planning out builds for them.  But for now it's off to r/mm