Author Topic: [IC] SA SAIL (GB Live!)  (Read 35020 times)

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Offline Fredington

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[IC] SA SAIL (GB Live!)
« on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 21:59:13 »


Introducing SA SAIL

Based on the SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) keyboard created by Les Earnest, inventor of the Finger protocol. SAIL itself was started by John McCarthy, inventor of the LISP programming language. The SAIL keyboard inspired the Knight keyboard, which in turn inspired the LISP Machine CADR and Space Cadet keyboards. The keyboard features beautiful teal keycaps and a mix of APL and Greek top legends, as opposed to the Space Cadet keyboard where the Greek legends are on the front of the keys. The SAIL keyboard also introduced the META and TOP keys.



A couple of interesting quirks about the keyboard should be noted:

--The digit 0 key is to the left of the 1 key.
--The punctuation legends placement is quite different from modern keyboards (more on that later).


Colors




GB will run from March 1-27 with the following vendors:

NA: NovelKeys
Canada: DeskHero
EU: MyKeyboard
Asia: iLumkb
Oceania: DailyClack


Pricing




Kits


















Deskpads

Green Hi-Contrast







Black Monochrome








Renders

RAMA U80-A





Iron165







KBD19X







Atlas









FAQs

Are these 7bit’s or hhkbp2’s legends?   No, I drew these myself. See below comparison:

More


NE NorDe (or Colevrak) avail?   Due to the “wrong” punctuation legend placement in relation to modern keyboards and the fact that a new mold would need to be created for each key if I wanted it to have the “correct” top legend according to the inspiration, I have decided not to provide a NorDe kit. More importantly, I don’t even know what that would look like, since it would definitely require some rearranging of the punctuation legends in a way that would go against how they are laid out in the alphas. Same thing goes for Colevrak. Instead, I’ve provided a basic ISO kit with two options to cover the extra key: *⊗ or \∞. The ∑s in the Alphas kit should also help in this regard. Since even the base ANSI layout has the “wrong” punctuation legend placement, I think it is not as egregious in this case that ISO layouts have the wrong legends as well.


To-Do

Feedback - Complete
Vendors - Complete
New renders - Complete
Pricing - Complete
Launch GB - March 1-27


Acknowledgements

Hhkbp2/Jiezhou for all the detailed advice about custom fonts and running a GB through SP
Abec13 for the beautiful renders and advice on formatting the IC and the 40s kit
depletedvespene for the advice about the ISO kit and the idea for the novelty keys


Changelog

2/28/20
--Changed NUM LOCK to simply NUM

2/21/20
--Split the Ortho/40s kit into Ortho and 40x Extension (replacing Split B-ars)
--Added a couple blanks to the ISO kit
--Moved the ∑s from the Alphas to the Maths kit
--Kits are LOCKED
--Added new render with numpad (KBD19X)
--Added pricing and exact GB dates

2/7/20
--Deskpad renders added

2/4/20
--After R1 samples, all legends have been reworked to be significantly bolder
--A new Pantone has been chosen, 7717 C, due to possible discontinuation of previous standard
--Moved the Σ keys back into the Alphas where they originally were
--Following recent trends in numpad kit design, R1 keys for standalone numpads have been removed from the Numpad kit
--1800 layout support has been moved from the Modifiers into the Numpad kit
--Two deskpads will be offered, Green Hi-Contrast and Black Monochrome
--Incorporated the new novelties into the updated renders
--All kits and renders have been updated with above changes
--Deskpad renders and pricing to follow in the next couple weeks!

1/6/20
--Added updated/new renders that reflect the new Pantone; a number of legends have been refined to be more reflective of the inspiration
--Added new Maths and Ergo Blanks kits (w/ Boardwalk support); replaced µ with ∇ in the Maths kit as I felt it fit better with the theme
--Moved the ∑s in the Alphas and Numpad into the new Maths kit

12/10/19
--Moved 1800 support from the Numpad to the Modifiers, as pricing for the Numpad was coming in a little high compared to its MOQ
--Added options for R1 and R2 Backspace (BS) and Delete (CLEAR) (and vice versa) to the ortho kit

11/25/19
--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key
--Selected a new Pantone for better color matching to plastics, PQ-7716C

11/18/19
--Replaced LOCK with NUM LOCK in the Numpad kit
--Updated various legends to be more faithful to the inspiration

11/12/19
--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

11/8/19
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster


If you'd like to support this project, please use the banner below:

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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104881.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/ijqMmwb.jpg[/img][/url]
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 March 2020, 08:32:41 by Fredington »

Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 22:22:43 »
Unreal.

Offline rowie

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 22:46:42 »
Love vintage inspired sets. Looks good so far. Hope this becomes a reality. Good luck :thumb:

Offline KeepCalm27

  • Posts: 9
Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 22:56:51 »
The color looks great. I hope SP could handle it correctly!

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 23:18:00 »
Love this color

Offline RacerK1

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 06 November 2019, 23:21:15 »
I'm in if we can get ortho support!

Offline Nigolski

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 00:18:21 »
i'm sold
HHKB Pro 1

Offline matrixzj

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 00:22:53 »
I like this color theme and simple kits design. Definitely in it.  :thumb:
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SA/GMK Keycaps Info

Offline qq

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 04:48:54 »
This looks really interesting.  :p

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 05:26:48 »
Show Image


Introducing SA SAIL

Interesting concept. I have a couple quick comments.


Show Image



Kudos on the presence of numpad equals.

Given the importance math is given to this keyset, I would add a numpad comma (but that's me).


Show Image



The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)


Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 06:58:50 »
Might be helpful to do some kind of comparison with existing "Cadet" SA sets.
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Offline hottrout

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 07:18:24 »
LOVE, hope this becomes real.  Good luck.
I started with a Sinclair human flesh keyboard in 1980 and it has never stopped.

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Offline jiezhou

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 07:39:31 »

Offline vosechu

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 09:06:31 »
Same. I’m in if there’s a simple ortho set. Seems like ortho users would be a large chunk of your target demographic.

Offline enrique.aliaga

  • Posts: 247
[IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 09:10:40 »
Amazing set! I passed on SA Space Cadet (Symbiosis) because it lacked the Greek front-legends, so it wasn't an exact reproduction of the original. But this is! Love it! Hope this gets to GB!

Do you have any estimate of the start of GB?
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 November 2019, 09:25:17 by enrique.aliaga »

Offline mimalik

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 09:18:11 »
For the love all things holy....fast track this NOW!!!!

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 09:46:28 »
I'm in if we can get ortho support!

Please fill out the form! It really helps!

Show Image


Introducing SA SAIL

Interesting concept. I have a couple quick comments.


Show Image



Kudos on the presence of numpad equals.

Given the importance math is given to this keyset, I would add a numpad comma (but that's me).


Show Image



The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)



For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.

I would consider something like a ∑ add-on kit a la the ń kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

Same. I’m in if there’s a simple ortho set. Seems like ortho users would be a large chunk of your target demographic.

Please fill out the form! It really helps!

Might be helpful to do some kind of comparison with existing "Cadet" SA sets.

Added under FAQs.

Show Image


 :thumb: Thanks for all your help!
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 November 2019, 10:30:52 by Fredington »

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 10:38:37 »

…………

Show Image



The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.


I understand your reasoning for wanting to retain the *⊗ keycap in a keyboard that's missing one key, but that still presents the problem of losing the \∞ keycap that is supposed to go right in that position in an ISO keyboard (of any form factor).

I would suggest keeping the *⊗ and \∞ keycaps as are in the base kit (those are perfectly fine), and have the R3 alpha in the ISO kit be \∞ (so all regular ISO keyboards of all form factors will be satisfied), with an R4 *⊗ keycap to cover the issue you mention. This, of course, beside the possibility of adding a different R4 key with one or two new symbols not present in the original keyboard, to avoid any repetition in the extra ISO key (be it either *⊗ or \∞).

(I like the VT keycap, too, BTW, but given that the base kit already has CALL, BREAK, LINE, FORM and TOP, I wonder if it wouldn't be better placed in the base kit as well)


I would consider a ∑ add-on kit a la the ń kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

The eńe survival kit meme worked nicely on GMK Jamón (as a matter of fact, I was gonna pass on it uńtil my eyes were ińuńdated with the sight of so mańy eńes together, and that woń me over to the set), but I'm not sure if pulling a similar feat on THIS set would work. PERHAPS, at most, for the F row, with legends like ∑(i=1)(1), ∑(i=1)(2), (etc), but even then I'm not sure if it would look good.



Offline Fredington

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  • Posts: 194
Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 10:56:28 »

…………

Show Image



The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.


I understand your reasoning for wanting to retain the *⊗ keycap in a keyboard that's missing one key, but that still presents the problem of losing the \∞ keycap that is supposed to go right in that position in an ISO keyboard (of any form factor).

I would suggest keeping the *⊗ and \∞ keycaps as are in the base kit (those are perfectly fine), and have the R3 alpha in the ISO kit be \∞ (so all regular ISO keyboards of all form factors will be satisfied), with an R4 *⊗ keycap to cover the issue you mention. This, of course, beside the possibility of adding a different R4 key with one or two new symbols not present in the original keyboard, to avoid any repetition in the extra ISO key (be it either *⊗ or \∞).

(I like the VT keycap, too, BTW, but given that the base kit already has CALL, BREAK, LINE, FORM and TOP, I wonder if it wouldn't be better placed in the base kit as well)


I would consider a ∑ add-on kit a la the ń kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

The eńe survival kit meme worked nicely on GMK Jamón (as a matter of fact, I was gonna pass on it uńtil my eyes were ińuńdated with the sight of so mańy eńes together, and that woń me over to the set), but I'm not sure if pulling a similar feat on THIS set would work. PERHAPS, at most, for the F row, with legends like ∑(i=1)(1), ∑(i=1)(2), (etc), but even then I'm not sure if it would look good.

Perhaps the λ kit from SA Carbon would be a better comparison?

Regarding the ISO kit, I'll have to give it some more thought it seems. Thanks for the input.

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 11:59:39 »
Depending on how HSA or ABS MT3 turn out, would you ever consider running this in either of those profiles?. A lot of people (like me) are less enthusiastic about SA than in the past, on account of its height and relatively small top surface area.
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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 12:10:33 »

Perhaps the λ kit from SA Carbon would be a better comparison?

I suppose so, but I still can't see how a kit like either would fit with the spirit of the original SAIL keyboard (but I'm not the IC runner here, so that's not my call to make).


Regarding the ISO kit, I'll have to give it some more thought it seems. Thanks for the input.

You're welcome. :)

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 20:58:28 »
Depending on how HSA or ABS MT3 turn out, would you ever consider running this in either of those profiles?. A lot of people (like me) are less enthusiastic about SA than in the past, on account of its height and relatively small top surface area.

Probably not. Even though I like MT3 a lot, I feel like SA most closely resembles the inspiration. Although, I concede that uniform R3 would probably be the closest, I just don't like uniform profiles.

EDIT: Also, SP has a proven track record of producing these types of legends, while doubleshot MT3 and HSA are still unknown quantities.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 November 2019, 08:52:26 by Fredington »

Offline Ensaum

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Banner Added!)
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 21:33:09 »
Love retro inspired sets. I'm interested.

Offline nickaster1

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Banner Added!)
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 01:52:19 »
This would fit the antique TX boards very well

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 09:34:59 »
Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 November 2019, 09:46:54 by Fredington »

Offline mimalik

  • Posts: 372
Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 10:35:03 »
How about a R1 number row kit with ansi special characters? For those(developers/system admins, etc etc) who need the functionality of the special characters.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 14:27:29 »
How about a R1 number row kit with ansi special characters? For those(developers/system admins, etc etc) who need the functionality of the special characters.

No, because that would require additional molds since I'm intentionally making the legends larger than the standard SP size for dual legend caps. You can see the difference in the comparison photo between 7bit's Round 6, SA Symbiosis R2, and SA SAIL that I posted in the OP.


Offline jimboytacos

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 08 November 2019, 21:37:48 »
I'm all in.

Offline gbchk

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 00:35:40 »
Thanks for taking my suggestion to incorporate the custom legends into the TKL nav cluster.

Is the intent to make legends equal in size to 7bit's? I assume yes based on the render but not sure. Just received my Symbiosis R2 order and comparing them to 7bit's caps, the slightly larger legends really do make a big difference.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 08:27:44 »
Thanks for taking my suggestion to incorporate the custom legends into the TKL nav cluster.

Is the intent to make legends equal in size to 7bit's? I assume yes based on the render but not sure. Just received my Symbiosis R2 order and comparing them to 7bit's caps, the slightly larger legends really do make a big difference.

The intent was simply to mimic the inspiration. While Symbiosis legends are on the small side, I think I understand why he made them that way. By matching the size to the number row, it avoided having to make new molds for that row.

Offline Enemy

  • Posts: 5
Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 11:19:56 »
Thanks for listening to the feedback and adding the 40s and split space kits

Offline MMcM

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 11:20:29 »
I used those keyboards from time to time forty-odd years ago at the D. C. Power Lab.

I know when I saw the photo that is now the top one on Xah Lee's site, my immediate reaction was, hang on, wasn't it greener than that? And the later photos there seem to bear that out. Your choice seems like a compromise.

Maybe somebody at LCM+L knows the true original color; they have been trying to resurrect some of WAITS, I think. Maybe somebody could go over to the exhibit and photograph it with color bars next to it?

Or you could just say it's inspired-by and get on with it, which would still be great!

Plus it's always possible that the plastic has discolored over the years. However, I haven't noticed that with a Knight keyboard of similar age.


Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 11:37:39 »
I used those keyboards from time to time forty-odd years ago at the D. C. Power Lab.

I know when I saw the photo that is now the top one on Xah Lee's site, my immediate reaction was, hang on, wasn't it greener than that? And the later photos there seem to bear that out. Your choice seems like a compromise.

Maybe somebody at LCM+L knows the true original color; they have been trying to resurrect some of WAITS, I think. Maybe somebody could go over to the exhibit and photograph it with color bars next to it?

Or you could just say it's inspired-by and get on with it, which would still be great!

Plus it's always possible that the plastic has discolored over the years. However, I haven't noticed that with a Knight keyboard of similar age.

I was at LCM+L last summer and didn't see one of these there. Are you sure they have one? I trust the white balance of the photo above as it was taken recently at Stanford, and like I said, I used many photos as reference to arrive at the color I chose.

If someone would be kind enough to physically go to the Stanford exhibit and try and match the color, that would be swell but I'm also pretty happy with the color I chose and am not loosing sleep over the possibility that it may not be exact.

Offline Argan12345

  • Posts: 8
Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 22:23:45 »
Would consider a uniform R3 profile, it would fit the board it's based on. Would make a big different for me, I think it would also help reduce costs and layout compatibility for buyers.

Offline gbchk

  • Posts: 83
Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 09 November 2019, 22:29:54 »
I would be super bummed if this wasn't sculpted. If anything, maybe add a uniform option like Symbiosis did.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 05:34:50 »
Would consider a uniform R3 profile, it would fit the board it's based on. Would make a big different for me, I think it would also help reduce costs and layout compatibility for buyers.

I would be super bummed if this wasn't sculpted. If anything, maybe add a uniform option like Symbiosis did.

I'm not opposed to a R3 kit like Symbiosis, but I'm not sure this set can support that in terms of balancing the level of interest with the cost of the set as a whole. I can put it do a vote though.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 November 2019, 05:37:36 by Fredington »

Offline Argan12345

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (Major Kit Update, New Renders Incoming)
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 05:41:18 »
I agree with putting it up to a vote. I think there is a lack of interesting uniform R3 SAs on the market (Ice cap is kinda boring and nuclear is too gaudy), and if nothing else, it's clear that the SAIL was a uniform profile keeb.

Also keep in mind that uniform makes it ALOT more flexible for various layouts (40%, ortho, ergo) at a lower cost for everyone.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 November 2019, 06:22:47 by Argan12345 »

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 14:44:29 »
I've created a poll to gauge interest in potentially 1) converting the entire kit to uniform R3 or 2) adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit). Before casting your vote, please review the pros and cons of each laid out below:

1) Converting the entire kit to uniform R3

Pros:
  • Less total keys for same amount of compatibility (or more!)
  • Lower price per-kit at GB stage

Cons:
  • Not sculpted

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:
  • Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
  • Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:
  • Higher per-kit price at GB stage

Poll closed.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 November 2019, 11:19:09 by Fredington »

Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 14:58:30 »
would SAIL "CADR" run alongside the sculpted kits as currently proposed in the first post?

If yes, consider making a third option in the poll: "run sculpted kits", no R3 which dilutes MOQ

also consider the the "I'll buy anyways" vote, which is sorta me. Id prefer sculpted, but if it's an R3 uniform, eh, I'd buy it too.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 15:08:15 »
would SAIL "CADR" run alongside the sculpted kits as currently proposed in the first post?

If yes, consider making a third option in the poll: "run sculpted kits", no R3 which dilutes MOQ

also consider the the "I'll buy anyways" vote, which is sorta me. Id prefer sculpted, but if it's an R3 uniform, eh, I'd buy it too.

Added!

Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 15:34:53 »
Thank you! I love the theme and color, the profile is sorta secondary to me as long as there's split keys.

Hope you get good data.

Offline jiezhou

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 10 November 2019, 23:53:39 »

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:
  • Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
  • Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:
  • Higher per-kit price at GB stage due to additional R3 molds needed

Please vote here. Poll will open for one week.

Precisely speaking, it is the word "tooling" that we should say for creating new legend rather than "mold".

Only new legends require new toolings. Once the legends toolings are done, SP could make keys in whatever profile you like as long as they are of the same dimensions - in this case, all alphas key are just 1u, 1.5 keys. So, you don't have to pay extra cost on toolings if you add a flat kit using the same legends.

But in terms of running a practical GB, my advise is that you should be very sure there is enough interest before adding any thing in real GB. People always ask for new thing/kit in a GB. The trend is that kit number in an IC is usually growing. It's too easy to add too many things/kits but without a solid number on interest some kits fail in the GB phase. We have seen examples before. The similar example, CADR of Symbiosis R2 had its hard time on sale during the GB phase.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 11 November 2019, 05:46:54 »

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:
  • Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
  • Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:
  • Higher per-kit price at GB stage due to additional R3 molds needed

Poll closed.

Precisely speaking, it is the word "tooling" that we should say for creating new legend rather than "mold".

Only new legends require new toolings. Once the legends toolings are done, SP could make keys in whatever profile you like as long as they are of the same dimensions - in this case, all alphas key are just 1u, 1.5 keys. So, you don't have to pay extra cost on toolings if you add a flat kit using the same legends.

But in terms of running a practical GB, my advise is that you should be very sure there is enough interest before adding any thing in real GB. People always ask for new thing/kit in a GB. The trend is that kit number in an IC is usually growing. It's too easy to add too many things/kits but without a solid number on interest some kits fail in the GB phase. We have seen examples before. The similar example, CADR of Symbiosis R2 had its hard time on sale during the GB phase.

Good to know about the molds vs. tooling.

Yes, I remember CADR had a hard time hitting MOQ and the current poll results support the lack of interest in the kit. If anything, converting the entire set to R3 would be the more feasible thing to do, but "no changes" is currently winning by a fair amount.

Thanks for weighing in.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 November 2019, 11:20:14 by Fredington »

Offline donutcat

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 11 November 2019, 06:19:19 »
Would like to point out you've got two R1 "Call" keys in the mods and you're missing R1 keys for "VT" and "Line" that would normally have their representative keys there for *correct* 1800-style layout support. Not an issue if there's a uniform kit that happens as long as that kit has all the compatibility of your current kits or what CADR had.

Other'n that I like the look, monotone and green is my jam.

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 11 November 2019, 07:20:05 »
Would like to point out you've got two R1 "Call" keys in the mods and you're missing R1 keys for "VT" and "Line" that would normally have their representative keys there for *correct* 1800-style layout support. Not an issue if there's a uniform kit that happens as long as that kit has all the compatibility of your current kits or what CADR had.

Other'n that I like the look, monotone and green is my jam.

Good catch. Should be no problems if I add those to the Numpad kit, no?

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (uniform R3 poll added - please vote!)
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 12 November 2019, 10:34:11 »
First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 November 2019, 11:20:39 by Fredington »

Offline pcire

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (small kit updates, poll still open)
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 12 November 2019, 11:22:57 »
Love the continuous updates!
Looking forward to this set!

Offline jimboytacos

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (small kit updates, poll still open)
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 12 November 2019, 11:36:55 »
This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] SA SAIL (small kit updates, poll still open)
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 12 November 2019, 12:39:15 »
This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Well, I only got one request for an ergo kit in the interest check form.

I'm also not inclined to offer one for the following reasons:

  • A modern assembly kit would not match well with these vintage-style legends.
  • Blanks would look unbalanced due to the dual-legend nature of the alphas.
  • Custom legends would add additional cost to the set and I'd like to keep it pretty tight.

At the end of the day, an ergo kit would depend on interest level and right now, it's lacking.

I will say though, that if I were to add an ergo kit, I would use forms and functions that are unique to Stanford LISP 1.6, the version of LISP used at SAIL. So if that piques your interest, all you ergo users better show up in the form!
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 November 2019, 13:01:15 by Fredington »