Author Topic: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Now supporting JIS, Latin American & Eurkey | GB Nov 2020  (Read 9102 times)

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Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 07 September 2020, 14:49:49 »
As you mention in a previous paragraph, your basal documentation is Microsoft's implementations of the layouts... but the problem with this is that Microsoft does NOT implement the layouts 100% up to spec. Many of the layouts they implement have been altered — most of the time, it's innocuous additions (like adding the euro symbol to AltGr-5 on most European layouts), but some times they have made rather serious mistakes (like flipping the vertical bar and the broken bar in the Swiss layouts).

Regarding the µ symbol, the German and (old) Dutch layouts have it, but the Nordic layouts in general (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, plus derivatives) do not. Microsoft added it anyway to those layouts, and this DOES count as yet another innocuous addition, but it still isn't in the specs (and according to the Gospel of Saint Myself, this means the symbol should not be printed on the keycap, because muh spec, d00d).

Microsoft specs are also specs :D

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 07 September 2020, 17:02:19 »
As you mention in a previous paragraph, your basal documentation is Microsoft's implementations of the layouts... but the problem with this is that Microsoft does NOT implement the layouts 100% up to spec. Many of the layouts they implement have been altered — most of the time, it's innocuous additions (like adding the euro symbol to AltGr-5 on most European layouts), but some times they have made rather serious mistakes (like flipping the vertical bar and the broken bar in the Swiss layouts).

Regarding the µ symbol, the German and (old) Dutch layouts have it, but the Nordic layouts in general (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, plus derivatives) do not. Microsoft added it anyway to those layouts, and this DOES count as yet another innocuous addition, but it still isn't in the specs (and according to the Gospel of Saint Myself, this means the symbol should not be printed on the keycap, because muh spec, d00d).

Microsoft specs are also specs :D

Except when they don't bother to document their stuff (which happens exceedingly often).

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 07 September 2020, 17:34:51 »
Except when they don't bother to document their stuff (which happens exceedingly often).

It's actually documented quite well — if you don't mind using their layout previewing “tool” that looks like it was last updated in 1995 :P


Edit: Aaand it appears that it's currently broken. GG. Here's a raggedy-ass screenshot of what it looks like when it's working:

« Last Edit: Mon, 07 September 2020, 17:39:01 by konstantin »

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 07 September 2020, 19:33:48 »
Except when they don't bother to document their stuff (which happens exceedingly often).

It's actually documented quite well — if you don't mind using their layout previewing “tool” that looks like it was last updated in 1995 :P


Edit: Aaand it appears that it's currently broken. GG. Here's a raggedy-ass screenshot of what it looks like when it's working:

Show Image


And when it's working... it shows their layouts' implementations as they stood in Windows 8. I've caught at least two differences already between what those pages say and what the actual implementations in Windows 10 do.

I'm ⇒ ⇐ this close to replacing all references to microsoft.com in favor of kbdinfo's.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 07 September 2020, 19:46:56 »
And when it's working... it shows their layouts' implementations as they stood in Windows 8. I've caught at least two differences already between what those pages say and what the actual implementations in Windows 10 do.

I'm ⇒ ⇐ this close to replacing all references to microsoft.com in favor of kbdinfo's.

For anyone wanting to seriously look at keyboard layouts on Windows straight from the source (or, rather, the DLL file), I would recommend downloading KbdEdit. The free version has everything you need, and probably a lot more.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] KAT Napoleonic - Alpha Support for 21+ Languages | GB Nov 2020
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 08 September 2020, 10:15:48 »
I've made significant revisions to the alpha kits and will update the opening post accordingly:

Album: https://imgur.com/a/twLqZuV

As mentioned previously, I'm working off of the implementations of these keyboards provided by Microsoft Windows 10.  Where noted, I'm using Magic Utilities as my primary documentation for Apple layouts.  I am not using Linux-specific layouts at this time.

Also, not all AltGr or Shift-AltGr characters may be displayed for a given keyboard and are sometimes omitted for cost/compatibility reasons.

Wellington (English (UK)): R2 #~ is missing the secondary \ and | symbols. OR, better, the other copies of the #~ unduly have them. The actual English (UK) layout doesn't place backslash and pipe in the tertiary and quaternary layers for the movable keycap — it's an addition by Microsoft's implementation.
Mentioned previously, this isn't changing.  The AltGr \| symbols are applied to keys which would be used in an ANSI/HHKB layout.

Waterloo (English (US, international)): the S keycap should have § in the upper right corner.
Corrected in latest draft.

Uhlan (combined Polish and Lithuanian): the difference between lowercase tertiary legends (Polish) and uppercase quaternary (Lithuanian) comes off as odd.
Revised alongside other layouts that simultaneously display (1) multiple languages and (2) AltGr characters for one of the languages.  Lithuanian characters are shown in red and remain in the top-right corners to help further distinguish them from the yellow Polish AltGr characters.

Murat (Spanish and Italian):
- Spanish (Spain): 1!| , 2"@ , 4$~ are missing.
- Italian: supports Italian (141), but that layout was deprecated long ago in favor of Italian (142). The curly braces are missing (but don't fix that! Go 142 instead).
- Make a note stating that this set supports Spanish (Spain), not Spanish (Latin America)... or Iberoamerican Spanish, for that matter.
All AltGr characters were omitted from this kit to avoid compatibility conflicts across Italian, Italian 142, Italian Apple, Spanish, and Spanish Apple layouts.  Description of image amended to note that this supports European Spanish.

Marie Louise (French Apple and Belgian): if this is intended to support Belgian on Windows, there are too many errors. Looks like it's meant for Apple only, but it's not clear from the description. I can't find Belgian on Windows support in other kits.
Significant corrections were made to this kit.

João VI (Portuguese):
- 4$ should be 4$§ ; 7/ and 0= are missing the curly braces.
- Make a note that this set supports Portuguese (Portugal), not Portuguese (Brazil).
Set notes that it is implemented for European Portuguese. Additional optional keys for 4, 7, and 0 are now provided.

Bernadotte (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, "etc."):
- Plain M (without µ) is missing (Nordic layouts in general don't use it).
- Danish is missing ◌́◌̀|  and <>\
- Estonian (if supported) is missing '?\ , Ä◌̂ , , <>|
- Faroese (if supported) is missing ◌́◌̀| , <>\ , Ø◌̂ , Å◌̈ , Ð◌̃
- Icelandic — too many keys missing; it's obvious it's not supported.
- Swedish/Finnish: <>| and +?\ are missing.
Multiple corrections here. Faroese and Estonian are both supported, but with some AltGr legends missing. An additional M key without mu was added.
Icelandic is not supported as it has too many differences from these layouts to fit into a single kit.

Act of mediation (Swiss):
- R3 "!] - note the first character is supposed to be ◌̈ , not a quote sign.
- 4ç° and 5%§ : the degree and section signs are not part of the Swiss layout (they're part of MS' ****ty implementation).
- Note the placement of | and ¦  (again, a problem of MS' ****ty implementation).
The double-quote was indeed incorrect and has been replaced with an umlaut.
The remaining notes here may be implementation-specific, but they appear to be correct according to both Apple's and Microsoft's implementations. Things like the swapped pipe/bar characters are staying as-is since only Linux seems to follow the official government-endorsed standard.

Chateauguay (Canadian BILINGUAL):
- The corner key is #|\ — the forward slash is out of place there.
- 1! is missing ± in the tertiary corner.
- 2"@ - check those corners!
- Missing tertiaries from 3/ up to =+ , all R3 keys from O onwards and R2 keys from ;: onwards.
- R1 «»Ù is actually «»°. Tertiaries missing from M onwards.
This has received multiple adjustments.  It is now a set combining both Canadian Multilingual and Canadian French. CF legends that differ from CM are shown in red. AltGr legends for CM are provided where space allows.

Other changes have occurred with the remaining alpha kits. The Doppelkaiser kit replaces Illyria; it is now a combined South Slavic / Hungarian kit in much the same pattern as Chateauguay and Uhlan.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 September 2020, 10:22:17 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Full description of 08 September updates:

Vendors
HEX Keyboards has joined on as our Southeast Asia vendor.

Alphas: Error Fixes & Minor Tweaks
    Act of Mediation
    Alexander
    Austerlitz
    Bépoleon Nonaparte
    Karađorđe
    Marie Louise
    Pondicherry
    Sequoyah
    Waterloo

Alphas: Combined Language Redesigns
In the kits below, gold still represents AltGr sublegends for the primary language. Red represents the primary legends of the alternate language.
Alpha kits where two languages are displayed simultaneously, but neither displays AltGr characters, are still slated to use the gold coloration for all sublegends.
    Chateauguay – Canadian Multilingual & Canadian French
    Doppelkaiser – South Slavic Latin & Hungarian (replaces Illyria)
    Uhlan – Polish & Lithuanian (will now differ from render)

Alphas: Other Substantial Updates
    Bernadotte – Added several keys to provide correct AltGr legends, particularly with regard to the <> key.
    João VI – Some legend updates. Clarified in description that this is the European Portuguese layout.
    Murat – Removed all AltGr legends in order to expand compatibility to the Italian 142 layout. Clarified in description that this is the European Spanish layout.

Core Mod Updates
    Various Russian Green – The 1u version of Backspace is now “Back” instead of “Bksp”.
    Various French Indigo – The translations for “Lower” and “Raise”have been updated to “Dimin” and “Augm”
    Ortho – Four of the 1.5u keys that were convex are now R2 for better Iris/Corne support. A couple 1u blanks in R2 were also added.
    Forties – Major updates to kit contents, particularly for spacebars.
    Ergo – Lower/Raise are now R2 to make them usable on the thumb clusters if desired. Two 1u convex blanks were added.

Miscellaneous Kit Updates
    Mac & Vortex kit is now back to being just a Mac kit, and its contents were reduced significantly to make it more affordable.
    Spacebars kit – Major updates to kit contents.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 September 2020, 14:42:10 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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KAT Napoleonic: Updated Renders & New Alphas

We are less than eight weeks from the KAT Napoleonic Group Buy, which starts November 9th. I have new renders and alphas to share, including support for JIS, ANSI-JP, Eurkey, and Latin American Spanish.

Render Updates
The post has been updated with new and revised render images. You can also see these on imgur or on the official KAT Napoleonic site.

New : the Abacus numpad by SomeGreekGuy (unreleased). Shown with the Austrian White numpad kit and the Minard deskmat.
Updated : the Boardrun by Shensmobile. These renders now show the most up-to-date version of the Uhlan alpha kit, with the Lithuanian legends now shown in red.

Alpha Kit Revisions
Based on survey responses and other feedback, three new kits have been added.
  • Nagasaki
    • Japanese JIS & ANSI-JP layouts
    • Katakana sublegends in gold
    • Compatible with the standard US layout.
    • 3u spacebar included for JIS.
    • Fullwidth / Half-width key included for JIS in all three colorways.
  • Blücher
    • Eurkey versions 1.2 & 1.3
    • Compatible with the standard US layout.
  • Agustina
    • Spanish (European & Latin American)
    • Replaces the Murat kit
The Austerlitz and João VI alpha kits have been sidelined at this time due to lack of interest.

Offline msting

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This will break Keyreative.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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This will break Keyreative.
You mean because of the kit count, or something else?