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Offline Kairxa

  • Posts: 163
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #650 on: Mon, 15 November 2010, 22:18:41 »
I'd really like to know why BW's keys feel different to other blue boards. Even if I have the chance to own one, I can't discover it myself :(
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #651 on: Mon, 15 November 2010, 22:25:45 »
It's the plate construction and mounting.


Remember, when I first got the U9BL and compared it to the Das I thought the XArmor was using PCB mount switches. It's that much of a difference.

I didn't get a chance to dissect the Das; could someone open up their Das/Filco/Steelseries/Rosewill and look at how the plate is connected to the PCB? We'll compare notes.
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Offline bruteMax

  • Posts: 3
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #652 on: Mon, 15 November 2010, 23:01:24 »
The keys on the BW are slightly textured as well, giving a very slight rippled feel.  The Rosewill keys are more slippery to the touch.  We're not talking anything really appreciable for gaming here, but there is a difference.
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Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #653 on: Mon, 15 November 2010, 23:01:25 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;247350
I didn't get a chance to dissect the Das; could someone open up their Das/Filco/Steelseries/Rosewill and look at how the plate is connected to the PCB? We'll compare notes.


I don't see much other than the switches connecting the plate to the PCB. (Old photo.)

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Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #654 on: Mon, 15 November 2010, 23:15:55 »
On the U9BL you can see metal tabs attaching the plate and PCB.




Interesting to note that the iOne has much neater soldering than the Costar. Shorter component leads, neater solder points, a *lot* less flux residue. The Costar even has a few borderline potential cold joints here and there. Interesting.
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Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #655 on: Tue, 16 November 2010, 08:59:27 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;247362
On the U9BL you can see metal tabs attaching the plate and PCB.

{img}http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/225/9/3/u9bl_14_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg[/img]


Interesting to note that the iOne has much neater soldering than the Costar. Shorter component leads, neater solder points, a *lot* less flux residue. The Costar even has a few borderline potential cold joints here and there. Interesting.


Do you think that would go for all iOne boards or just the XArmour?
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Offline ironman31

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« Reply #656 on: Tue, 16 November 2010, 17:55:55 »
They really should review the filco brown like cpu magazine did.
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Offline Arcanius

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #657 on: Tue, 16 November 2010, 19:01:44 »
I'm afraid to ask, since I haven't exactly read all 60 pages of this thread.
But how similar would the feel of the BW be compared to say... Das Keyboard?
I'm thinking of trying a BW out, and if I enjoy the feel, buy a Das.
Now I know they won't feel identical, and I've heard the sound is a bit different, but would the difference be so great that it would change my decision?
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

  • Posts: 667
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #658 on: Tue, 16 November 2010, 19:18:34 »
Quote from: ripster;247794
But Razer doesn't have the retail presence it used to.


It's still going to be much more accessible than the overwhelming majority of boards.
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #659 on: Tue, 16 November 2010, 20:13:23 »
Quote from: Arcanius;247788
I'm afraid to ask, since I haven't exactly read all 60 pages of this thread.
But how similar would the feel of the BW be compared to say... Das Keyboard?
I'm thinking of trying a BW out, and if I enjoy the feel, buy a Das.
Now I know they won't feel identical, and I've heard the sound is a bit different, but would the difference be so great that it would change my decision?


They're very similar, and should give you a good idea of MX blues in general.
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Offline BlueRain

  • Posts: 140
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #660 on: Wed, 17 November 2010, 00:52:49 »
finally decided to pull the trigger on the blackwidow, not sure if it was the right choice at $80 shipped. Maybe I should've been more patient and wait for the RK-9000...

Hopefully it will arrive before Thanksgiving ^^"

EDIT: Just realized this is my 20th post overall, I guess I'm the fast acting type. :)
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Offline Rhyick

  • Posts: 10
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #661 on: Wed, 17 November 2010, 01:23:13 »
Quote from: BlueRain;247926
finally decided to pull the trigger on the blackwidow, not sure if it was the right choice at $80 shipped. Maybe I should've been more patient and wait for the RK-9000...

Hopefully it will arrive before Thanksgiving ^^"

EDIT: Just realized this is my 20th post overall, I guess I'm the fast acting type. :)

Meh, I wouldn't call it a bad purchase.  The RK-9000 uses the same switches, so you basically trade macros and media keys (via Fn key) for NKRO.  Plus I seriously doubt you'll have issues with rollover due to the BW's optimized matrix anyways.

I think I'll be picking up a Das though for my first mechanical keyboard.  Have a feeling I'll prefer the browns over blues since I do game a bit as well.  $102 with the student discount XD.
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Offline bruteMax

  • Posts: 3
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #662 on: Thu, 18 November 2010, 12:02:18 »
Further up this thread (the previous page) I describe the difference between these two keyboards, since I got both on the same day. :)
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Offline sixty

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« Reply #663 on: Thu, 18 November 2010, 15:02:24 »
Review is up here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12841

I had the board laying around for a month and due to lack of time and recently also internet access. I did not have the chance to actually fully review it until now.
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Offline BlueRain

  • Posts: 140
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #664 on: Thu, 18 November 2010, 16:06:29 »
Thanks for the review. Will watch out for some of the things mentioned when it comes in.

Quote from: sixty;248793
Review is up here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12841

I had the board laying around for a month and due to lack of time and recently also internet access. I did not have the chance to actually fully review it until now.
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

  • Posts: 667
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #665 on: Sat, 20 November 2010, 12:32:18 »
Quote from: ripster;249730


Amazon Dudes likes it.  Now this is interesting.  I could have sworn earlier in this thread  I posted a 1-2 star review there.  Now it's gone.  Damn internet.


The helpful rating on his Amazon account was essentially gone (2 out of 30 customers found this review helpful)  and everyone was commenting how he was an idiot who didn't do proper research on what he bought. Not surprising that he removed it.
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Offline BlueRain

  • Posts: 140
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #666 on: Sat, 20 November 2010, 23:36:04 »
Just received my Razer Blackwidow. It'll take me a while to get used to not bottoming out... Everything feels good so far, need to test out the key matrices soon :)
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Offline BlueRain

  • Posts: 140
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #667 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 00:18:21 »
6KRO @ QWEASD cluster, 2KRO @ ZXC cluster
Seem to gear toward 2KRO toward the right hand side of the keyboard, so I guess that's the "gaming optimized" portion.

Also tried to use the USB/PS2 adapter on the keyboard. The keyboard must need USB power because the BIOS did not pick up the keyboard at all. O wells, worth a try. Plus I did manage to somehow find the old purple adapter, so saving it for possible future need.
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Offline Nadger

  • Posts: 208
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #668 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 02:19:43 »
Quote from: ripster;250038
This thread has now hit over 50,000 views, beating OCN's Razer Mechanical Keyboard thread at 43,116.      A few more thousand it will have the most views of any thread here.


This thread seems to tickle rip's epeen quite a bit.

I never understood the competition with OCN...but im new here so maybe i wasn't around for what started this war ;x
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Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #669 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 02:59:49 »
Quote from: Nadger;250062
This thread seems to tickle rip's epeen quite a bit.

I never understood the competition with OCN...but im new here so maybe i wasn't around for what started this war ;x


ppl seem to have a complex for this webwit guy too on ocn.
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Offline ricercar

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #670 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 14:26:49 »
webwit and ripster are complex people.

(post 911, emergency, emergency!)
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #671 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 15:00:55 »
Quote from: ricercar;250210
webwit and ripster are bat**** loco people.

Small correction.
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #672 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 18:30:55 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;250220
Small correction.


That pretty much summed it up.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #673 on: Sun, 21 November 2010, 21:12:29 »
I was actually wondering where lmnop was on this forum too. Hmm...
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Offline Bwappo

  • Posts: 10
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #674 on: Wed, 24 November 2010, 09:36:54 »
I ordered the blackwidow off Razor's site. The site says the keyboard is on backorder, but I just got an Email saying they shipped the keyboard. I checked the site again, and it still says backorder.
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Offline Anyguy4321

  • Posts: 18
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #675 on: Fri, 26 November 2010, 15:49:27 »
Well Fry's finally got black widows in stock and I spent my 46 dollar gift card and another 40 bucks cash to get one.  I recently got an Adesso M135b as well which is in a about the same price range and I am comparing the two as we speak.  From first impressions, the adesso keyboard seems to have a deeper press and is less "wobbly" than the razer.  It is also slightly louder.  That being said, they both definitely feel like they are cherry blues.

The razer would win in my book if it had full n-key rollover.

However this is the result of the n-key rollover test (the quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog while holding both shift keys down).

THEQCKBRWFXJRGHTVERTHELAZYG

As you can see, the "gaming-optimized" rollover is pure crap.  Even my crappy logitech g11 has better n-key rollover.  I am not much of an FPS gamer so my need for n-key rollover is not as high as some but it is still annoying to know I plopped down 86 bucks for a keyboard that doesn't have it.  I will have to mull whether the lack of n-key rollover is worth the 20 dollar price difference with my closest alternative, the adesso.

(Also of note, the adesso has a usb 2.0 hub and mic/headphone ports on the keyboard too ... something which I don't really care about in general since it is an unpowered hub).
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Offline Anyguy4321

  • Posts: 18
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #676 on: Fri, 26 November 2010, 16:35:56 »
Meh.  It's annoying but not a dealbreaker so far.  What has turned out to be annoying in further tests are the placement of the macro keys.  M5 is where the control key naturally feels that it should be which is quite annoying for a lot of games and something that definitely needs some adjustment to get used to.  So far, I like the keyboard all right.  It is a fairly cheap cherry blue board barring the lack of n-k-rollover.  The ability to remap the keys is also really nice and the option of macro buttons will probably be useful in the future.  A nice value proposition for the time being and hopefully a stepping stone for others to get better mechanical keyboards like filcos and the like.
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #677 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 00:21:58 »
Quote from: Anyguy4321;252673
However this is the result of the n-key rollover test (the quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog while holding both shift keys down).

Stopped reading there. Maybe your tests would work better if you weren't such a moron.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 November 2010, 00:26:20 by CodeChef »
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Offline Kairxa

  • Posts: 163
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #678 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 02:22:29 »
Who the F started that stupid test anyway?
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Offline Anyguy4321

  • Posts: 18
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #679 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 12:31:18 »
Well, I didn't know that test was in accurate as I saw it both at the hard forums and at Overclocked.net.  Again, I just search for this stuff online and see what I can get.  You don't have to bite my head off, I was just providing my impressions.  There's nothing worse than jackass nerds that attack you for making a mistake while putting your neck out there.

I think that Razer decided that using a USB connection and allowing for the use of their completely remappable keyboard/macro software was worth the tradeoff of losing n-key rollover.  I am liking the remappability more and more as n-key rollover only mattered to me when I played CS 1.6 which I do not anymore.  I like having the macros and rebindability more and more even though I know that there are open-source software programs that allow remapping (if not exactly macro usage).

I give the keyboard about an 8.5/10 at this point.  When I get some more money, I'll probably get a Filco Brown but at this point I'll stick to a perfectly fine substitute.
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Offline Kairxa

  • Posts: 163
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #680 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 13:03:13 »
@ripster
I see, so that's one example of successful troll. Nice work. And quite smart advertising there.
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Offline Kairxa

  • Posts: 163
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #681 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 13:09:38 »
Nah, it's just an old skool bashing at someone else's post. I've had enough of that.
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Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #682 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 14:50:17 »
Actually, Ripster's right. For those $50, they could throw in about $1 of diodes and hire a programmer to get their firm/software right. Remember that Razer might be selling these in larger volumes than a company like Unicomp.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #683 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 15:51:47 »
It'd take more than $49 to write that firmware. In fact, that's probably holding back the 6kro feature more than anything else. Software is always more expensive than hardware.

...I always say...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #684 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 15:59:25 »
I don't know how long it would take to program the firmware but $49 is a fairly average HOURLY rate for a contract firmware developer...

...unless of course you outsourced it.
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Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #685 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 16:39:44 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;253091
I don't know how long it would take to program the firmware but $49 is a fairly average HOURLY rate for a contract firmware developer...

...unless of course you outsourced it.
A keyboard with diodes makes the firmware easier as it needs no algorithms to prevent ghosting. The only worry is if you are going to live with USB's legacy 6KRO or try to shoot for a higher number. If we're generous this could take a man-month which translates into 200 hours max.

Now you could argue whether you can live with 6KRO or really need NKRO, but even then 6KRO is still better than the "optimized" layout you get now.

In the end, I'm pondering whether programmer cost is holding them back. Maybe they took an off-the-shelf keyboard controller or don't have the money to get a developer license of a firmware binary they're using.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #686 on: Sat, 27 November 2010, 16:44:40 »
Quote from: ripster

Isn't programming just like stacking legos and poking them to make sure it's stable?


I would definitely stack legos and poke them to make sure it's stable, if I could get paid the same :D
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #687 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:04:16 »
...Wait, LEDs... Light. Emitting. DIODES... wat the ****...
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #688 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:26:14 »
What? LEDs still act as diodes...
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Offline arc2

  • Posts: 99
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #689 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:36:36 »
meh, it is 2kro what else is there to say ?
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #690 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:40:30 »
That some key clusters are 6KRO... That it's one of the cheapest cherry blue keyboards around...that its build quality isnt complete ****... Should I continue?
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Offline arc2

  • Posts: 99
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #691 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:46:19 »
Fair enough. I guess I am just evaluating it from a gaming point of view.
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #692 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:49:17 »
Quote from: arc2;253242
Fair enough. I guess I am just evaluating it from a gaming point of view.


From a gaming point of view you should care even less. I have never ever had to hold down 3 keys in a game and was not able to... Modifiers don't even count towards that 2KRO so it's not even like you can't diagonal-move and crouch at the same time or something...
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Offline arc2

  • Posts: 99
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #693 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 00:55:02 »
Quote from: CodeChef;253243
From a gaming point of view you should care even less. I have never ever had to hold down 3 keys in a game and was not able to... Modifiers don't even count towards that 2KRO so it's not even like you can't diagonal-move and crouch at the same time or something...


Huh ? 2KRO is 2KRO ...

There will always be a 3 key sequence that fails.
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #694 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 01:22:54 »
Modifier keys do not count towards KRO counts when using USB protocol (most of the time)

BW has qwer and asdf all MKRO (yes, M not N) so even if you wanted to go forward backward left right reload and open a door you could. the right half of the keyboard is typically not used for 90% of games, and since 99.9% of people dont type 9001 words per minute, 99.9% of people dont need anything more than the BW gives.
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Offline RickyJ

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #695 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 01:26:06 »
Quote from: CodeChef;253238
What? LEDs still act as diodes...


Do you want them to emit photons, or do you want them to block current?  Pick one.  They are not great at passing small signals in the forward direction because they're not designed for it, and the signal/power lines would get all muddled up.  You might as well say all cars are identical because they have wheels.
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Offline CodeChef

  • Posts: 280
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #696 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 01:35:40 »
Quote from: RickyJ;253247
Do you want them to emit photons, or do you want them to block current?  Pick one.  They are not great at passing small signals in the forward direction because they're not designed for it, and the signal/power lines would get all muddled up.  You might as well say all cars are identical because they have wheels.


Both.

They are.

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woody

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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #697 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 04:41:57 »
Quote from: ripster;253235
I have a Doctorate in Diodes.  The LED ones emit light and that's ALL they do.

The other ones keep those nasty ghosts away - if only Razer Black Widow had them.
Show Image


If there ever was picture rating on GH, I'd have rated most of your lego pics highest. Someday you'll eventually end up creating memes.
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Offline Tofurkeymeister

  • Posts: 14
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #698 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 08:22:56 »
Quote from: arc2;253244
Huh ? 2KRO is 2KRO ...

There will always be a 3 key sequence that fails.

Yeah, so I won't be able to press xc and p at the same time.

My favorite combination.

Honestly, most people won't notice the difference, and only NKRO "enthusiasts" actually care (and they have likely already bought a Filco or Das.

P.S. My comments only pertain to the cheap version.
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Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #699 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 08:26:57 »
Quote from: CodeChef;253238
What? LEDs still act as diodes...
Sure they do, but they sit in another circuit. You don't want to have the LEDs light up when a key is pressed, rather they must be constantly lit.

Hence the need of dedicated diodes for both current blocking and the lighting.
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The storage list:
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Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.[/SIZE]
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