GH60 Keyboard Project

[jdcarpe]

so is the hhkb layout out the window?

Just depends on komar being able to include a split backspace.

[agodinhost]

Currently, there are 4 pins free, all of which are used by JTAG by default. In order to make them usable, one has to connect an SPI programmer to those 6 pins I broke out under the GH60 logo and change the fuse bits settings.

Any chance to left the atmega I2C pins free in order to be able to expand or build addons?

[Acetrak]

I have finished building mine and am typing this post with it. It's good to go, for the most part. Now to just wrap my head around getting it programmed how I want it...

What specs Ivan?

[IvanIvanovich]

I build it with red switches, with black on space, locking on right shift, and super black on caps lock. I changed my physical layout a little after thinking about it for awhile and used a 2.75 right shift instead of the 1.75 + 1 and use the left Alt as Fn since I am used to it already after using the Poker for so long. For keycap I use Cherry of course mainly white on black doubleshots, but use keycap from Dolch for WASD and Enter, Alr Gr on Fn from Skidata and original red Esc. Case is plastic one from Pure.

[Luke]

Will it be possible to put custom actions on this (like macros), so like Fn + I opens ITunes, or am I talking rubbish?

[Strelok]

Will it be possible to put custom actions on this (like macros), so like Fn + I opens ITunes, or am I talking rubbish?

This should be totally possible.

[jdcarpe]

Will it be possible to put custom actions on this (like macros), so like Fn + I opens ITunes, or am I talking rubbish?

Yes, I believe opening the default media player is available for mapping. My Fn layer already opens the calculator with Fn+O, and my default web browser with Fn+C.

[SmallFry]

GH60>KMAC Happy.

[jdcarpe]

Just FYI on those "universal" switch holes for the plates: they are less than perfect in practice, and I will avoid using them in the future. I had The_Beast make me some prototype plates based on those hole shapes, and it's really easy to rotate a switch when mounting them in the plate, so that they sit at an angle in the plate. Also, once the switch is mounted (properly) in the hole, it seems more "wobbly" than normal inside the hole. I'm not saying the hole doesn't work, but rather it may not be the BEST option.

[regack]

Just FYI on those "universal" switch holes for the plates: they are less than perfect in practice, and I will avoid using them in the future.

Just a couple of questions for reference. Were the switches plate mount only?  Were they soldered onto a pcb as well or just free in the plate for testing the fit.  Thanks for being the guinea pig

[jdcarpe]

Just FYI on those "universal" switch holes for the plates: they are less than perfect in practice, and I will avoid using them in the future.

Just a couple of questions for reference. Were the switches plate mount only?  Were they soldered onto a pcb as well or just free in the plate for testing the fit.  Thanks for being the guinea pig

These were plate mount switches, and the plate was designed for a 10-key pad, which I don't have a PCB for, yet (GHpad). I was just testing the fit, because I have some plate designs which I will be using as a prototyping testbed, without a PCB to solder the switches to. See this thread, for more info on what I'm talking about. I wanted to know if that hole design would support the switch well enough without a PCB, and now I know that it really won't. If the switches in those "universal" holes were mounted to a PCB, they probably wouldn't move much, if at all. And the point becomes moot if you are using PCB mount switches, obviously. The hole design is sound, but for me, it's just not PERFECT.

[agodinhost]

The GH60 gerber files on github were saved in a kicad "unstable" version (a test version, not released yet).

It's kinda a pain to build the whole environment so I've found one already compiled version online for those interested.

Build 3805
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18290329/hosted/KiCad-2012-11-16-BZR3805-testing-Win_binaries-only.zip

[WhiteFireDragon]

Just FYI on those "universal" switch holes for the plates: they are less than perfect in practice, and I will avoid using them in the future.

Just a couple of questions for reference. Were the switches plate mount only?  Were they soldered onto a pcb as well or just free in the plate for testing the fit.  Thanks for being the guinea pig

These were plate mount switches, and the plate was designed for a 10-key pad, which I don't have a PCB for, yet (GHpad). I was just testing the fit, because I have some plate designs which I will be using as a prototyping testbed, without a PCB to solder the switches to. See this thread, for more info on what I'm talking about. I wanted to know if that hole design would support the switch well enough without a PCB, and now I know that it really won't. If the switches in those "universal" holes were mounted to a PCB, they probably wouldn't move much, if at all. And the point becomes moot if you are using PCB mount switches, obviously. The hole design is sound, but for me, it's just not PERFECT.

Was it exactly from my design or did you or Beast make your version of it? I sent Beast a file for it, so not sure if that's the one he used for you or if you guys made your own version of it. If you guys made one based off the phantom hole that was rotated and overlayed, then it'll be different than the one I sent to Beast. Mine had slightly different dimensions.

If it's straight from my file modified into your layout, then that's a real bummer . I guess I'll have to go back and check dimensions again. Dimensions were derived from my universal TKL plate. Btw, since you bought a universal TKL plate from my GB, how does the hole from the TKL compare to this rotated version? And is it loose at the corners or the sides? A macro shot of it would be great if you can.

[jdcarpe]

Just FYI on those "universal" switch holes for the plates: they are less than perfect in practice, and I will avoid using them in the future.

Just a couple of questions for reference. Were the switches plate mount only?  Were they soldered onto a pcb as well or just free in the plate for testing the fit.  Thanks for being the guinea pig

These were plate mount switches, and the plate was designed for a 10-key pad, which I don't have a PCB for, yet (GHpad). I was just testing the fit, because I have some plate designs which I will be using as a prototyping testbed, without a PCB to solder the switches to. See this thread, for more info on what I'm talking about. I wanted to know if that hole design would support the switch well enough without a PCB, and now I know that it really won't. If the switches in those "universal" holes were mounted to a PCB, they probably wouldn't move much, if at all. And the point becomes moot if you are using PCB mount switches, obviously. The hole design is sound, but for me, it's just not PERFECT.

Was it exactly from my design or did you or Beast make your version of it? I sent Beast a file for it, so not sure if that's the one he used for you or if you guys made your own version of it. If you guys made one based off the phantom hole that was rotated and overlayed, then it'll be different than the one I sent to Beast. Mine had slightly different dimensions.

If it's straight from my file modified into your layout, then that's a real bummer . I guess I'll have to go back and check dimensions again. Dimensions were derived from my universal TKL plate. Btw, since you bought a universal TKL plate from my GB, how does the hole from the TKL compare to this rotated version? And is it loose at the corners or the sides? A macro shot of it would be great if you can.

It's my own version, based off the Phantom hole rotated. I forgot you did your own by taking measurements of the switches.




And it's really only loose at the corners, it seems. But it feels kinda "wobbly" in the plate.

[Luke]

Sorry about asking so many questions but would it be possible to use a MX Lock Switch (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Lock) for the Caps Lock? I'm just really interested in doing something cool and personalised with this board!

[sordna]

I don't see why not, although you have to map the key as Shift, and essentially you'll have Shift Lock (ie apart from letters being capitalized, the num row will give you symbols)

[jdcarpe]

Short answer: no, not on Caps Lock.

Long answer:
This keeps coming up, so it's not just you. I think people (myself included) want to have a MX Lock switch on their board for the factor. But Caps Lock doesn't quite work that way. When you press the Caps Lock key, the switch closes (KEY_DOWN) and then opens when you release it (KEY_UP). But the lock stays activated in firmware/OS until the next KEY_DOWN event. So if you had a MX Lock switch there, it stays down until you press it again. You'd have to do this: Press once, activate. Release: Nothing, switch is locked down (KEY_DOWN). Press 2nd time, unlocks the switch (KEY_UP), but the lock is still activated in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, lock still activated in FW/OS. Press 3rd time: Switch locks down, but now the Caps Lock deactivates in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, still deactivated. Press 4th time: Switch lock releases. Release: Still deactivated.

What you want to do with an MX Lock switch is something like Shift or Fn, that only functions while the key is pressed. Giving you Shift Lock or Fn Lock.

[The_Beast]

Short answer: no, not on Caps Lock.

Long answer:
This keeps coming up, so it's not just you. I think people (myself included) want to have a MX Lock switch on their board for the factor. But Caps Lock doesn't quite work that way. When you press the Caps Lock key, the switch closes (KEY_DOWN) and then opens when you release it (KEY_UP). But the lock stays activated in firmware/OS until the next KEY_DOWN event. So if you had a MX Lock switch there, it stays down until you press it again. You'd have to do this: Press once, activate. Release: Nothing, switch is locked down (KEY_DOWN). Press 2nd time, unlocks the switch (KEY_UP), but the lock is still activated in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, lock still activated in FW/OS. Press 3rd time: Switch locks down, but now the Caps Lock deactivates in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, still deactivated. Press 4th time: Switch lock releases. Release: Still deactivated.

What you want to do with an MX Lock switch is something like Shift or Fn, that only functions while the key is pressed. Giving you Shift Lock or Fn Lock.

Send me an MX lock, or 12


kthnx

[jdcarpe]

Send me an MX lock, or 12


kthnx

I only have 3 of them! And I just got those in the mail yesterday, from 7bit.

[The_Beast]

So you'll be sending me at least one, right?

[mashby]

Short answer: no, not on Caps Lock.

Long answer:
This keeps coming up, so it's not just you. I think people (myself included) want to have a MX Lock switch on their board for the factor. But Caps Lock doesn't quite work that way. When you press the Caps Lock key, the switch closes (KEY_DOWN) and then opens when you release it (KEY_UP). But the lock stays activated in firmware/OS until the next KEY_DOWN event. So if you had a MX Lock switch there, it stays down until you press it again. You'd have to do this: Press once, activate. Release: Nothing, switch is locked down (KEY_DOWN). Press 2nd time, unlocks the switch (KEY_UP), but the lock is still activated in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, lock still activated in FW/OS. Press 3rd time: Switch locks down, but now the Caps Lock deactivates in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, still deactivated. Press 4th time: Switch lock releases. Release: Still deactivated.

What you want to do with an MX Lock switch is something like Shift or Fn, that only functions while the key is pressed. Giving you Shift Lock or Fn Lock.

Thank you for this explanation jdcarpe! I've been wanting to use the MX-Lock as well, for the very same purpose and knowing how the Caps Lock works now makes things much more clear. Thank you.

[Luke]

I don't see why not, although you have to map the key as Shift, and essentially you'll have Shift Lock (ie apart from letters being capitalized, the num row will give you symbols)

Short answer: no, not on Caps Lock.

Long answer:
This keeps coming up, so it's not just you. I think people (myself included) want to have a MX Lock switch on their board for the factor. But Caps Lock doesn't quite work that way. When you press the Caps Lock key, the switch closes (KEY_DOWN) and then opens when you release it (KEY_UP). But the lock stays activated in firmware/OS until the next KEY_DOWN event. So if you had a MX Lock switch there, it stays down until you press it again. You'd have to do this: Press once, activate. Release: Nothing, switch is locked down (KEY_DOWN). Press 2nd time, unlocks the switch (KEY_UP), but the lock is still activated in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, lock still activated in FW/OS. Press 3rd time: Switch locks down, but now the Caps Lock deactivates in FW/OS. Release: Nothing, still deactivated. Press 4th time: Switch lock releases. Release: Still deactivated.

What you want to do with an MX Lock switch is something like Shift or Fn, that only functions while the key is pressed. Giving you Shift Lock or Fn Lock.

Ah Okay, the long description really helped might do this on my fn key if I can get hold of one! cheers guys 

[rknize]

Shift lock is the easy short-cut.  Because the matrix is fully NKRO, you could have the firmware send both make and break for both positions of the lock switch.  You still have the issue of getting out of sync due to another keyboard activating capslock or plugging in the keyboard with the switch in the wrong state, but it is possible to keep things reasonably sane.  The firmware is also aware of the real state of the software caps lock because of the LED state.  So one could tweak the firmware to be smart about it and not blindly resend the sequence if the lock switch and LED state do not match.  There would still be corner cases, like when the LED state is wrong, too.

Doesn't seem worth it to me, but some folks really seem to want to relive the 80s.

[sordna]

This guy from London has some MXLOCK-PCB on hand that he's selling

[Luke]

This guy from London has some MXLOCK-PCB on hand that he's selling

Thanks for that, I might order them and some other switches off him for the GH60 If i remember correctly from one of WhiteFireDragon's videos, you can simply remove the legs from PCB-mounted switches for Plate-mounting amiryt?

[IvanIvanovich]

I put lock switch on mine on the right shift as a novelty. To be honest I have find it to be super****ing annoying and am pretty sure it will be coming off.

[sordna]

Thanks for that, I might order them and some other switches off him for the GH60 If i remember correctly from one of WhiteFireDragon's videos, you can simply remove the legs from PCB-mounted switches for Plate-mounting amiryt?

Yep, they're just plastic legs, easy to cut, so any PCB-mount cherry switch can be converted to plate-mount.

[komar007]

Shift lock is the easy short-cut.  Because the matrix is fully NKRO, you could have the firmware send both make and break for both positions of the lock switch.  You still have the issue of getting out of sync due to another keyboard activating capslock or plugging in the keyboard with the switch in the wrong state, but it is possible to keep things reasonably sane.  The firmware is also aware of the real state of the software caps lock because of the LED state.  So one could tweak the firmware to be smart about it and not blindly resend the sequence if the lock switch and LED state do not match.  There would still be corner cases, like when the LED state is wrong, too.

Doesn't seem worth it to me, but some folks really seem to want to relive the 80s.

I just wanted to say exactly that;). Though I don't know why, but I can certainly lead to a situation where the caps-lock led is on on one keyboard and off on another, which rather makes it harder. I don't know if this is correct behaviour. Or rather it certainly isn't.
Again, probably not worth it:/

BTW, I have posted my programming GUI in the prototyping thread. Please help make it better by testing.
In fact making better is too much said. Please tell me if it runs for you at all;)

[rknize]

For the case where the LED state is wrong, usually all keyboards will have their LED state fixed when any LED state changes for any keyboard.  The firmware would handle this once the LED state became correct.  I never use caps lock, so this is a non-issue for me.  In fact, I find shift lock more useful than caps lock. 

[mkawa]

Shift lock is the easy short-cut.  Because the matrix is fully NKRO, you could have the firmware send both make and break for both positions of the lock switch.  You still have the issue of getting out of sync due to another keyboard activating capslock or plugging in the keyboard with the switch in the wrong state, but it is possible to keep things reasonably sane.  The firmware is also aware of the real state of the software caps lock because of the LED state.  So one could tweak the firmware to be smart about it and not blindly resend the sequence if the lock switch and LED state do not match.  There would still be corner cases, like when the LED state is wrong, too.

Doesn't seem worth it to me, but some folks really seem to want to relive the 80s.

I just wanted to say exactly that;). Though I don't know why, but I can certainly lead to a situation where the caps-lock led is on on one keyboard and off on another, which rather makes it harder. I don't know if this is correct behaviour. Or rather it certainly isn't.
Again, probably not worth it:/

BTW, I have posted my programming GUI in the prototyping thread. Please help make it better by testing.
In fact making better is too much said. Please tell me if it runs for you at all;)

hmmm..

if we are low on this round of prototype boards, the fact is that as much as i want to contribute to the source, the actual geekhack source (and well, work) takes priority. would my prototype board be better off with someone who has the time to test and contribute?

[Luke]

I would love to test one of these prototype boards, but I don't really think I have much to bring to the table because I've never built a custom keyboard before. I'm a .net software developer so unless that would help in our GH60 quest, I'll have to wait for the GB

[IvanIvanovich]

I will play with your programming tool when I get home.

[rknize]

Well, we are talking about firmware testing now.  I don't think that anything being discussed here blocks the progress of the PCB GB.  Worst case, we can provide precooked binaries for basic layouts until the software bells and whistles are working.

That said, I would be happy to help debug firmware issues if there were PCBs sitting unused. 

[mkawa]

no, the firmware doesn't block the PCB development, but i actually want to run one more batch of prototypes using the new switch orientation, hackerpads, etc. this will be a quicky tiny run. i was perfectly happy to fund it, but i am short on funds now..

anyway, if there's someone who can help test and develop but doesn't have a board, i can offer up my board

eta: it's completely built except for the led being flipped or some such

[mashby]

I hate to do a TL;DR post, but hopefully my questions will help benefit others keeping up with this thread. All of my questions are being asked out of ignorance and not out of preference. 

1. Why Choose To Not Include LEDs?
I understand there won't be support for backlighting and that certainly not a deal breaker, but I'm just curious about the decision. I would assume that it made everything much more complicated, but I find this project fascinating and love hearing the reasoning behind the decisions.

2. Why Are Some Switches Rotated?
There's been a lot of discussion about how some switches will need to be rotated and I'm just curious why. I'm still learning and maybe all compact boards do this, but again just curious to the reasoning behind it.

Thanks in advance!

[alaricljs]

1: It's hard.   More accurately, it's hard to provide as much customizability as users have come to expect from a GH produced board.  (see layouts)  Several people have been working on blacklight solutions... just not there yet.

2:  It's to avoid drill hole overlap for either the leads or pins of the switch.

[mashby]

1: It's hard.   More accurately, it's hard to provide as much customizability as users have come to expect from a GH produced board.  (see layouts)  Several people have been working on blacklight solutions... just not there yet.

2:  It's to avoid drill hole overlap for either the leads or pins of the switch.

Thank you for being so patient and explaining it to me. 

[sordna]

Also, with LED's you can no longer open up switches (to lube sliders or change springs) without some desoldering.

[gnubag]

Also, with LED's you can no longer open up switches (to lube sliders or change springs) without some desoldering.

well you could do what WFD has done with his QFR.
just dremel/cut out the bottom for the leds on the top casing.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40126.0

[sordna]

Thank you for that, I've dremeled my keyboards but never thought to dremel the switch housing! What a nice idea, although I suspect it might make the switches more prone to accumulating dust inside.

[SmallFry]

Thus the one tome that the stickers serve an actual purpose instead of pretty colors.

[singaporean123]

Hey there, hi there!

Does anyone have a rough gauge on how much a PCB+Plate+Plastic/Acrylic Case will cost?

[jdcarpe]

Hey there, hi there!

Does anyone have a rough gauge on how much a PCB+Plate+Plastic/Acrylic Case will cost?

Not really. We still don't really know how much this will all cost, but we should know something soon. komar007 is getting the info from the PCB fab.

[singaporean123]

Hey there, hi there!

Does anyone have a rough gauge on how much a PCB+Plate+Plastic/Acrylic Case will cost?

Not really. We still don't really know how much this will all cost, but we should know something soon. komar007 is getting the info from the PCB fab.

Ah I see. I'm thinking between getting a GH60 or getting a poker.. decisions decisions.

[komar007]

Get a Poker. You'll have a cheaper case for GH60:)

[Luke]

Get a Poker. You'll have a cheaper case for GH60:)

Would you really recommend that I hope the GB comes soon though, I've got everything prepared for it except the PCB xD

[IvanIvanovich]

Well actually if you got a good price on a used one or something it is not a terrible idea. Then you are set for all the parts needed for the most basic build and then swap it for a GH60 PCB. If one was really lucky they might be able to sell the Poker PCB for something assuming too many people don't do the same.

[Acanthophis]

Will this layout be possible?
Link

[WhiteFireDragon]

I'm finally able to integrate everything I know to get this. The keycaps are cherry profile, inside the case that I designed.






I'll render all the different layouts like this. I think this is easier for newbs to see possible layouts than it is just looking at plates I posted. Although, each render like this burns a couple hours of my time just preping it for the final render.

[Sai]

i am waiting for the HHKB layout.