Author Topic: GH60 Keyboard Project  (Read 416500 times)

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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1450 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:04:36 »
I still don't have mine, because I screwed up telling WFD what stuff I needed done and made a delay for myself.

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1451 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:13:50 »
I think the switch rotation issue is mostly speculation at this point.  From what I;m hearing there are plenty of examples of rotated switches in the wild. 

Did any of the early testers have issue?  Has anyone actually experienced negative repercussions of 90 degree rotated switches? Or all issues, at this point, hypothetical?

How is it speculation? You don't have to be a beta tester to find out. Just take any cap you don't value and turn it sideways and mount it on a switch. You can test the difference of rotated vs non-rotated, and combinations of different keycaps and switches.


WFD, have you shipped all the GH60s yet?

Hey this reminded me. I just sent you a PM about it.

Offline rknize

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1452 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:45:55 »
OK, I had a loose stem sitting here, so I tried a bunch of different keys:

- Vintage Cherry DS: I tried a few different caps (mods and alpha) from different sets.  They are a bit stiffer when rotated 90^ and don't snap onto the little notch in the top of the cross, but seem OK.

- SP: I'm pretty sure these are symmetrical in all four positions (which is why the Costar stabs fall out).  No problem.

- Vintage Wyse: very tight and the cap cracked and split open when I forced it on.

- "OEM" ABS: very tight, but managed to get it on and off.

- "OEM" PBT: very tight.  Needed pliers to get the stem out.

As it stands, I would prefer non-rotated switches.  If we proceed like this, I will probably modify the stems of those switches so that I don't run into problems.
Russ

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1453 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:51:15 »
^ See told you. Some caps work, some are very tight, and some just won't. Lol you cracked your vintage cap... that's no bueno especially if it's from a rare set. And any time they're tight enough where you need pliers, that means you're at a huge risk of ripping the switch right off the PCB.

Offline salmo

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1454 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:15:01 »
Wow, that's nuts.  I've spot checked with a few caps of my own and had no real issues other than they're a little snug-er.
Old WYSE (Doubleshot ABS)
WASD (ABS)
Signature Plastics (Doubleshot ABS)
QWERKeys (ABS)
"Thin" PBT Set

Now I'm using some old Cherry Black switches I have, but I didn't use anything to install or remove the caps other than my fingers, and the switch was plate-mounted.  I could feel a difference on some caps rotating them, but nothing like cracking or any real stress.  The PBT ones were the "worst" but nothing I would feel uncomfortable installing.

But that said, I guess I haven't been thinking about PCB-mounting the things, either.  That really does make things a little different.  And I can't think of a PCB mounted board with rotated switches.

And a cracked cap is a definitive bad thing observed on a rotated stem.  I'm not 100% against, but at this point I can say I'd prefer not rotated.

Offline rknize

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1455 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:24:12 »
Vintage caps are going to be more likely to crack, depending how brittle the plastic has become.



Sorry about the wysecrack.
Russ

Offline inteli722

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1456 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:35:01 »
Vintage caps are going to be more likely to crack, depending how brittle the plastic has become.

Show Image


Sorry about the wysecrack.

poor switch...

Sorry about the wysecrack.

I see what you did there!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1457 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:00:53 »
For the aluminum housing ballast weights. has anyone suggested nickles or pennies?

Offline salmo

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1458 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:08:32 »
Sorry about the wysecrack.
So sad...  Goodbye little soldier.  At least your demise served to teach us all a valuable lesson about the dangers of stem rotation and vintage plastics.

Offline gnubag

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1459 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:35:06 »
For the aluminum housing ballast weights. has anyone suggested nickles or pennies?
nice one, you can just get them out of a wishing well.

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1460 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 03:35:55 »
Tested some of my keycaps as well at 90 degree rotation:

SP ABS DS: no problem (they are loose in first place)
KBC PBT (thin): Hard to get on, imo more loose afterwards
KBC ABS: Hard to get on, not sure if more loose afterwards
Scarface Al caps: Very hard to get on, stem gets damaged!
Imsto Ti caps: Hard to get on, slight wear on stem visible

Offline sordna

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1461 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 09:14:55 »
This is a bad design desicion of Cherry I guess... they should have made the stem symmetrical to allow any rotation. I guess one must be extra careful when installing blank spherical keycaps, since you can't easily tell which orientation is right!
This picture from my Kinesis modification, where I added extra switches (some of them rotated) shows the difference in thickness of the sides of the stems clearly I think...

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Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1462 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 10:44:23 »
Someone just backed out of their prototype PCB, so I still have one left if anyone wants it. It's basically what the final production board will be (if the final one will have rotated switches).

edit: swooped!
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:50:08 by WhiteFireDragon »

Offline sordna

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1463 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 10:46:52 »
Does it have the surface-mount components installed already? Also, is it free / what are my responsibilities if I pick this up?
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Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1464 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:17:34 »
I wish all keyboard-related stuff were free  ^-^ . I haven't touched it yet, so it's not soldered. You can do that yourself, or arrange it with me. Might take me a week or two though.

By picking this up, you assume the responsibility of solving all first world problems. You also must explain why the universe is the way it is.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1465 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:17:59 »
Sent you a PM, WFD. I have a plan for it.
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Offline sordna

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1466 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:42:46 »
EDIT:
I don't need this board if you have other plans, I have the ErgoDox soldering to focus on first :-)
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 February 2013, 13:15:50 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline rknize

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1467 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 17:37:06 »
If there are unsoldered prototypes still available, I'll pick one up.  I can slobber SMD.
Russ

Offline Luke

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1468 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 18:37:22 »
Hey, just seen this thread for the first time and I am very interested in this. Only problem is that I haven't had any experience with custom mechanical keyboards before, I only have basic soldering skills at best, is something like this suitable for people like me? :D

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1469 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 19:10:58 »
Yes, MX switch is about as basic as it gets. Nice big through hole parts, it is easy. All of the difficult SMD part will come assembled.

Offline Luke

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1470 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 19:13:09 »
Yes, MX switch is about as basic as it gets. Nice big through hole parts, it is easy. All of the difficult SMD part will come assembled.

Ah ok, count me in then :D

Offline gnubag

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1471 on: Tue, 12 February 2013, 19:41:27 »
well, if you are still skeptical, take a look here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38363.0

Offline Luke

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1472 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 01:42:33 »
well, if you are still skeptical, take a look here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38363.0

Thanks, that's what I'll probably do because I wouldn't mind a few LED's ;D

Offline Broadmonkey

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1473 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 02:28:55 »
It won't have support for LEDs, not even a few. Only LED will be on Caps Lock.

Offline Luke

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1474 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 02:37:26 »
Oh right I didn't think it would but I saw this and got excited:

Things offered will be resistors, leds, switches, stabilzers, cases, plates, and cables, this all depends on interest.

Never mind :P

Offline damorgue

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1475 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 02:57:04 »
Any updates komar?

I looked at the pics in the first post, which by now is most certainly a bit outdated, but most of the rotated switches seem to be rotated 180 degrees. I recon that would work perfectly fine as the stems are symmetrical and they won't cause any problems as long as they are rotated 0 or 180 degrees.

Which switch positions are currently affected by being rotated 90/270 degrees?

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1476 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 03:01:50 »
I first brought up the rotated switch issue here:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg774382#msg774382

Basically almost all the modifiers and a few of the 1x keys need rotated switches. That's quite a few.

Offline damorgue

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1477 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 09:33:09 »
I am just saying that you can't rotate them 90 degrees, but they are fine if placed upside down, just in case someone hasn't noticed.

Why are those switches rotated 90 degrees btw? There seems to be plenty of space there, similar to the Phantom. What have I missed?

Offline komar007

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1478 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 10:30:10 »
Let's clarify a few things.
Yes, there is enough space to put all the switches without rotations.
However, this breaks two things. One is PCB pins. Not rotating switches 90 degrees causes the reduction from 2 pins to 1, since the other one falls into the hole of the switch nearby. This is probably a minor problem, and I have a good workaround - a wire keeping the switch in place instead of the regular switch diode, so those who use no plate can make sure the switches sit firmly.
The other thing is the soldering pads, which overlap with the switch holes. You can see how this looks in the current rev. A board (caps-lock). This makes the connection much more fragile and some PCB fabs will refuse to drill holes which overlap, which shouldn't be a problem for me, since there were no problems making rev. A with one such case.

So, to sum up, we have a problem with mounting pins, which is a minor one, and with overlapping pads, which is a major one. The first has a workaround, so it's not actually a problem, the second one just requires a compromise.

I'm rotating the switches now, and I'll probably make as many not rotated 90 degrees as possible.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 February 2013, 10:32:53 by komar007 »
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Offline rknize

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1479 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 10:37:33 »
Thanks, Komar.  The siamese pad issue should be fine from a DIY construction perspective, so long as the fab is OK with it.  They don't like to do it because of the risk of side-loading the drill bit and breaking it.  However, these holes are fairly large.  Odd numbers of siamese holes is better than even, because they can do the odd ones first, which reduces the side loading when they drill the overlapping ones.  They also may have to go slower to prevent chipping of the PCB substrate.
Russ

Offline gnubag

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1480 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 12:44:14 »
The other thing is the soldering pads, which overlap with the switch holes. You can see how this looks in the current rev. A board (caps-lock). This makes the connection much more fragile and some PCB fabs will refuse to drill holes which overlap, which shouldn't be a problem for me, since there were no problems making rev. A with one such case.

so if they will make them can't the builder just bridge the connection with a little metal piece which could be soldered next to the switch?
(i have no idea if this is what you are talking about, it is early in the morning.)

Offline Strelok

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1481 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 15:44:14 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

Offline inteli722

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1482 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 15:47:21 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

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Offline duq

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1483 on: Wed, 13 February 2013, 18:55:45 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

You wouldn't happen to be the progamer strelok would you?

Offline Strelok

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1484 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 07:51:26 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

You wouldn't happen to be the progamer strelok would you?

Nah, I got the name from the game STALKER.

Offline duq

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1485 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 09:11:27 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

You wouldn't happen to be the progamer strelok would you?

Nah, I got the name from the game STALKER.
:-) I'm waAaaaaatching you

Offline Guardian

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1486 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 18:11:03 »
I am veeeeery interested in this keyboard. It's amazing what happens when you don't check boards for over a year.
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Offline Strelok

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1487 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 18:24:27 »
From what I can tell this is postponed to an undetermined date, possible indefinitely.

Offline The_Beast

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1488 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 18:48:30 »
From what I can tell this is postponed to an undetermined date, possible indefinitely.

Are you high? Prototypes have been made and a GB will be starting soonish
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Offline gnubag

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1489 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 19:12:05 »
From what I can tell this is postponed to an undetermined date, possible indefinitely.

lol
it is in the prototyping stage.
not having an ETA does not mean that it will never come out.
i would rather wait 1 month longer and have a good keyboard than a piece of pcb crap.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1490 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 19:13:22 »
I'm new to mechanical keyboards and I want this.

I am only now realizing the money pit I am getting myself into.

You wouldn't happen to be the progamer strelok would you?

I wondered the same thing...I love Strelok in SC2 lol
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Offline Strelok

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1491 on: Thu, 14 February 2013, 19:22:34 »
From what I can tell this is postponed to an undetermined date, possible indefinitely.

Whoops, though I was in the Miniguru thread...

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1492 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 01:53:54 »
Ok I have all the layouts designed and there are 9 so far. I double checked all PCB holes several weeks ago to make sure all the layouts were possible before making the plates. Split backspace is not possible, so there won't be a true HHKB layout. Here's an example of a plate. The capslock hole is a bit of an eyesore since it doesn't look uniform with the rest.

ISO-based with 1.25x size modifiers, and a pure-style 1x key on the right shift.


« Last Edit: Wed, 20 February 2013, 01:55:25 by WhiteFireDragon »

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1493 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 02:34:51 »
OH nice! I'm really liking the pure look/layout right now.
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Offline komar007

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1494 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 02:54:50 »
Nice!
I like it. I understand that the reason caps-lock looks different is that it can be placed in center-stemmed and off-center-stemmed positions, correct?
GH60 rev. B w/ ali's case|Cherry G80-3000 HFU/05|IBM Model M (51G8572)
Check out the GH60 project! | How to make a keyboard

Offline vorn

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1495 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 05:26:22 »
ISO-based with 1.25x size modifiers, and a pure-style 1x key on the right shift.

Perfect!!! ;D
Nice work WFD!

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1496 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 07:03:19 »
Ok I have all the layouts designed and there are 9 so far. I double checked all PCB holes several weeks ago to make sure all the layouts were possible before making the plates. Split backspace is not possible, so there won't be a true HHKB layout. Here's an example of a plate. The capslock hole is a bit of an eyesore since it doesn't look uniform with the rest.

ISO-based with 1.25x size modifiers, and a pure-style 1x key on the right shift.


Show Image

Nice work! But perhaps we can have two plates, one with regular backspace and one with split backspace?

Offline salmo

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1497 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 08:37:08 »
Nice work! But perhaps we can have two plates, one with regular backspace and one with split backspace?

He said the PCB doesn't support split backspace.  So the plate supporting it wouldn't be useful.

Offline SmallFry

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1498 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 08:43:55 »
Not yet anyhow. I think Komar was going to put the split backspace in for the final revision, IIRC.

Offline Acetrak

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Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
« Reply #1499 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 08:56:15 »
Not yet anyhow. I think Komar was going to put the split backspace in for the final revision, IIRC.
That's what I thought as well :)
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