Simple Questions, Simple Answers (FAQ in the OP)

[jdcarpe]

Is there a way to get translucent on black double shots for a back lit keyboard?

Because of how the second shot flows around the first shot in the mold, they do not come out well. I have some "mistake" keys that Rayuki sent me, and three of them are the clear polycarbonate first shot, with white ABS as the second shot. I held them up to a bright light, and the "ESC" key shows the light pretty well, but the others don't look great. They don't pass light through the complete legend. Reversing the plastics in the process gives you our January and February GEEK HACK keycaps.

[IvanIvanovich]

Clear first shot will look good if the molds are made for it to address that problem so that there are no lines from the second shot running through the legends.

Cherry discontinued doubleshots in late 2010 or early 2011 possibly judging from internal assembly dates inside the keyboard. It happened not too long after the ZF buyout of Cherry, reason cited was cost effectiveness going by some conversations I have had with a few Cherry employees. The tooling was later sold entirely to GMK who have continued making them.

[aviphysics]

Is there a way to get translucent on black double shots for a back lit keyboard?

Because of how the second shot flows around the first shot in the mold, they do not come out well. I have some "mistake" keys that Rayuki sent me, and three of them are the clear polycarbonate first shot, with white ABS as the second shot. I held them up to a bright light, and the "ESC" key shows the light pretty well, but the others don't look great. They don't pass light through the complete legend. Reversing the plastics in the process gives you our January and February GEEK HACK keycaps.

From the GH keys, it seems like it is pretty clear what the problem is. Those keys look really neat though, unfortunately I am not that interested in slapping more branding on my board. I totally want the Vegas dice set carried out from 0 to 9. Either dots or numbers would be awesome.

[L4yercake]

Clear first shot will look good if the molds are made for it to address that problem so that there are no lines from the second shot running through the legends.

Cherry discontinued doubleshots in late 2010 or early 2011 possibly judging from internal assembly dates inside the keyboard. It happened not too long after the ZF buyout of Cherry, reason cited was cost effectiveness going by some conversations I have had with a few Cherry employees. The tooling was later sold entirely to GMK who have continued making them.

Well I just placed a black ABS Cap on top of an LED and there was some major light-seepage through the cap. If the molds were to be adjusted I'd think you'd have to first make them the thicker style caps as well as have a different mold for each letter/symbol. GB anyone? 

[CPTBadAss]

Clear first shot will look good if the molds are made for it to address that problem so that there are no lines from the second shot running through the legends.

Cherry discontinued doubleshots in late 2010 or early 2011 possibly judging from internal assembly dates inside the keyboard. It happened not too long after the ZF buyout of Cherry, reason cited was cost effectiveness going by some conversations I have had with a few Cherry employees. The tooling was later sold entirely to GMK who have continued making them.

Well I just placed a black ABS Cap on top of an LED and there was some major light-seepage through the cap. If the molds were to be adjusted I'd think you'd have to first make them the thicker style caps as well as have a different mold for each letter/symbol. GB anyone? 

I think making new molds for the injection molding machines is very expensive. Old Cherry ABS doubleshots are apparently very thick. But I've never seen a board with them/typed on them so I'm not 100% sure

[IvanIvanovich]

Cherry keys are totally opaque, no light passes at all regardless of the color either. GMK had some clear first shot in a sample picture that was sent to us, so I would guess they are allready on top of it. I put in a request about having some done like this for a set of lock keys already to test it out before suggesting it for 46/47 (alpha numerics) or full sets.

[L4yercake]

Thats what I figured, but fun to think about nonetheless.

[aviphysics]

Cherry keys are totally opaque, no light passes at all regardless of the color either. GMK had some clear first shot in a sample picture that was sent to us, so I would guess they are allready on top of it. I put in a request about having some done like this for a set of lock keys already to test it out before suggesting it for 46/47 (alpha numerics) or full sets.

Well make sure to let us all know if anything happens. I would be very excited to get a alpha numeric set. An alpha numeric set with translucent second shots might be even cooler though.

[ihateregister]

I have three major questions;

#A: My previous keyboard with scissor keys (3.2 mm travel), with a Logitech Illuminated Keyboard, no rollover, white-LEDs, USB.

#B: My new keyboard is a CM Storm Trigger with Cherry Red MX switches (2mm to actuation, 4mm to bottom), red-LEDs, 6 rollover, USB, with 5 macros.

1. O-Rings, where do you get them cheap, with near maximum reduction of movement. (EPDM? 40A? ~3/16 ID, 3/8 OD, 3/32 W = 2.38mm reduction) I'm a heavy typer. The leds are very close to the cherry switches, would a larger o-ring affect the LEDs used in my keyboard, or am I just being paranoid?
2. How much work would it take to replace red with white? I'm familiar with soldering, but not so sure if the resistors are going to be the same as long as the lumen output is very close?
3. My CM Storm Trigger keyboard has the "stacked keys" is there a way to make it flatter, and less tall? the keys feel huge to me. Can key caps be bought, or designed that are shorter? Is it expensive?

[CPTBadAss]

I have three major questions;

#A: My previous keyboard with scissor keys (3.2 mm travel), with a Logitech Illuminated Keyboard, no rollover, white-LEDs, USB.

#B: My new keyboard is a CM Storm Trigger with Cherry Red MX switches (2mm to actuation, 4mm to bottom), red-LEDs, 6 rollover, USB, with 5 macros.

1. O-Rings, where do you get them cheap, with near maximum reduction of movement. (EPDM? 40A? ~3/16 ID, 3/8 OD, 3/32 W = 2.38mm reduction) I'm a heavy typer. The leds are very close to the cherry switches, would a larger o-ring affect the LEDs used in my keyboard, or am I just being paranoid?
2. How much work would it take to replace red with white? I'm familiar with soldering, but not so sure if the resistors are going to be the same as long as the lumen output is very close?
3. My CM Storm Trigger keyboard has the "stacked keys" is there a way to make it flatter, and less tall? the keys feel huge to me. Can key caps be bought, or designed that are shorter? Is it expensive?

1) You can get O-rings at WASDKeyboards. I wrote a review on them if you wanted to get some of my thoughts on them. You can also order a sampler pack from WASD which would allow you to try out some o-rings before you bought them.

2) I don't know enough about soldering LEDs to answer

3) Yes keycaps can be bought that are lower profile. The CM Storm Trigger has CM's OEM profile. You'll probably want to look for a Cherry profile or a Leopold OEM profile. Many group buys from Signature Plastics have a Cherry imitation profile. Besides that, I believe imsto's keycap sets are Cherry profile. Or you can buy an old Cherry keyboard for just the keycaps. You can check the GB section or classifieds for pricing. I'm no long sure what "expensive" means to most people anymore

[ihateregister]

First off, thanks for the informative responses.

1) You can get O-rings at WASDKeyboards. I wrote a review on them if you wanted to get some of my thoughts on them. You can also order a sampler pack from WASD which would allow you to try out some o-rings before you bought them.

All of the WASD O-Rings are tiny, in fact his last announcement about them is they have a newer smaller one. (Doh!) This is the opposite of what I am looking for, my brother bought a pack of the thickest ones, and you cant really feel the difference, but the sound dampening is there. I thought about double stacking, but then I'm paying at least double... so might be better to buy in bulk. Ive found that mcmaster.com seems to only offer 70A and harder orings. The cheap stuff seems to be made out of nitrate, the better stuff out of silicone, or perhaps EDPM rubber.

2) I don't know enough about soldering LEDs to answer

This is a fustrating subject, it seems like all the reviews I've read simply get the keyboard, keep it, and copy paste the same review over and over again. The most "daring" reviewers will remove a key or two to show off the LED with no specs at all. Most say just look for the actual size. (3mm, 5mm, etc etc) The best review I could find is this one: tweaktown.com
I am reasonably certain I have 3mm sized red leds. I found some nice 3mm's here. Not sure if I want to resolder a bunch of stuff to experiment just yet.

3) Yes keycaps can be bought that are lower profile. The CM Storm Trigger has CM's OEM profile. You'll probably want to look for a Cherry profile or a Leopold OEM profile. Many group buys from Signature Plastics have a Cherry imitation profile. Besides that, I believe imsto's keycap sets are Cherry profile. Or you can buy an old Cherry keyboard for just the keycaps. You can check the GB section or classifieds for pricing. I'm no long sure what "expensive" means to most people anymore

This seems very complicated, with people in the "know" saying it's common sense, OEMS a "common" that alot of keyboard makers make. (Including coolermaster.) Another factor is that there are some makers who use different sized keys for different parts of their keyboard, and/or poorer quality keys that do not fit, or have uneasy leveling like they are using damaged molds. I guess I will need to find out the exact dimensions of a OEM Key. As far as price range. I have no clue. I would think $20-25 is a good price range. There are exactly 109 keys on my board. The more duh, is that smaller keycaps would make me use smaller sized o-rings. So I might just want to leave it at OEM key size.

[CPTBadAss]

Stock OEM caps like ones off your QFR usually go for like $15-25. New sets like the Klaxon or the CCnG Round 2 might go for $100 for a fulllset.

And if you're just looking at reviews, I wouldn't expect there to be a guide on how to resolder stuff. Check out the "Making stuff together" subforum. I'm sure you'll learn a lot there. Or hop on IRC and ask the chat whats up.

Recently I saw a sale in the classifieds where someone was selling the 70A o-rings. I thought 50A was way too much personally. But you can definitely get them.

Yeah, I did this in reverse order ^_^

[Jocelyn]

Simple Question

I'm pretty sure these are thick based on photos, but are they OEM profile? http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.0.223.FIQId3&id=17720311404
More photos from an older G80-3496 keyboard thread , but I'm only interested in the red caps - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37466.0

[CPTBadAss]

Looks like they're Cherry profile? I'm just assuming because it says "KBC Cherry" on the taobao link and the second link has the red alphas with stock black keys. If they're not the same profile, then there'd be a weird jump between the QWERTY row and the 12345 row. That's the reason why I sold my alpha set from Takaki. Great caps; looked good on the Leo, but I couldn't get used to the gap (the alphas were higher than the 12345 row).

[Jocelyn]

So in other words they'll match up with Imsto thick? I remember what happened with the keys you got from Takaki, but they were higher than your Leopold keys, while these (KBC reds) would be lower, right?

[CPTBadAss]

So in other words they'll match up with Imsto thick? I remember what happened with the keys you got from Takaki, but they were higher than your Leopold keys, while these (KBC reds) would be lower, right?

I would think so but let's try for some backup. Hey SmallFry, help your pupil out?

[Grimey]

I have asked this in several venues and never received and answer.  Did NMB ever make a Space Invader board in a 101/104 US-ANSI layout as we would expect it today (No big ass enterkey, full sized backspace)?

[IvanIvanovich]

@Jocelyn yes those are same thick Cherry profile PBT that imsto sell, in fact they even had the red at one point and maybe still do.

@Grimey I have never seen one, always with the bigass in 'ANSI' though have seen normal ISO version which I would find more preferable as I completely hate bigass enter.

[Jocelyn]

I would think so but let's try for some backup. Hey SmallFry, help your pupil out?

@Jocelyn yes those are same thick Cherry profile PBT that imsto sell, in fact they even had the red at one point and maybe still do.

@Grimey I have never seen one, always with the bigass in 'ANSI' though have seen normal ISO version which I would find more preferable as I completely hate bigass enter.

Thank You for the answers! So I can get a 37 + Escape set of blanks for only ~$13 (+5% agent fee and $5 shipping) or the same set with legends for only ~$30?
Please let me know, because I have not seen blanks available, outside of the WASD set, from Imsto or Feng and this price almost seems too good to be true. I'd really like to use some of these with Imsto's blank grey caps.

[IvanIvanovich]

If you want printed ones, feng has them stock in the ebay store here.

[Jocelyn]

If you want printed ones, feng has them stock in the ebay store here.

Thing is that I don't think I want them printed and I have a really good agent (Bhiner). So the 75 Yuan ones are blanks, right?
I'll probably order the grey blanks from Feng via PM if I decide to go this route. Thanks for all of your help

[GordonZed]

How long does one have to be a member in order to put an item for sale in the classified section? I'm assuming it's based on post count?

[The_Beast]

60 posts

[JPG]

First off, thanks for the informative responses.

1) You can get O-rings at WASDKeyboards. I wrote a review on them if you wanted to get some of my thoughts on them. You can also order a sampler pack from WASD which would allow you to try out some o-rings before you bought them.

All of the WASD O-Rings are tiny, in fact his last announcement about them is they have a newer smaller one. (Doh!) This is the opposite of what I am looking for, my brother bought a pack of the thickest ones, and you cant really feel the difference, but the sound dampening is there. I thought about double stacking, but then I'm paying at least double... so might be better to buy in bulk. Ive found that mcmaster.com seems to only offer 70A and harder orings. The cheap stuff seems to be made out of nitrate, the better stuff out of silicone, or perhaps EDPM rubber.

2) I don't know enough about soldering LEDs to answer

This is a fustrating subject, it seems like all the reviews I've read simply get the keyboard, keep it, and copy paste the same review over and over again. The most "daring" reviewers will remove a key or two to show off the LED with no specs at all. Most say just look for the actual size. (3mm, 5mm, etc etc) The best review I could find is this one: tweaktown.com
I am reasonably certain I have 3mm sized red leds. I found some nice 3mm's here. Not sure if I want to resolder a bunch of stuff to experiment just yet.

3) Yes keycaps can be bought that are lower profile. The CM Storm Trigger has CM's OEM profile. You'll probably want to look for a Cherry profile or a Leopold OEM profile. Many group buys from Signature Plastics have a Cherry imitation profile. Besides that, I believe imsto's keycap sets are Cherry profile. Or you can buy an old Cherry keyboard for just the keycaps. You can check the GB section or classifieds for pricing. I'm no long sure what "expensive" means to most people anymore

This seems very complicated, with people in the "know" saying it's common sense, OEMS a "common" that alot of keyboard makers make. (Including coolermaster.) Another factor is that there are some makers who use different sized keys for different parts of their keyboard, and/or poorer quality keys that do not fit, or have uneasy leveling like they are using damaged molds. I guess I will need to find out the exact dimensions of a OEM Key. As far as price range. I have no clue. I would think $20-25 is a good price range. There are exactly 109 keys on my board. The more duh, is that smaller keycaps would make me use smaller sized o-rings. So I might just want to leave it at OEM key size.

I just got some 0-rings on Amazon a few days ago. They are 70A. I got some 1/16 thick (code 008), and some thicker (code 106). I found that I prefer the 1/16 better, but I always liked the travel on cherry boards. I must say that I really like the hardness of the 70A o-rings, but I havent tried any other. I wanted hard o-rings because I dont like mushy things. Also, they were CHEAP. Like less than 2$ forma pack of 100. Worth a try I think.

[CPTBadAss]

I just got some 0-rings on Amazon a few days ago. They are 70A. I got some 1/16 thick (code 008), and some thicker (code 106). I found that I prefer the 1/16 better, but I always liked the travel on cherry boards. I must say that I really like the hardness of the 70A o-rings, but I havent tried any other. I wanted hard o-rings because I dont like mushy things. Also, they were CHEAP. Like less than 2$ forma pack of 100. Worth a try I think.

That's good to know. I didn't know where people got the 70A o-rings.

So in other words they'll match up with Imsto thick? I remember what happened with the keys you got from Takaki, but they were higher than your Leopold keys, while these (KBC reds) would be lower, right?

I would think so but let's try for some backup. Hey SmallFry, help your pupil out?

@Jocelyn yes those are same thick Cherry profile PBT that imsto sell, in fact they even had the red at one point and maybe still do.

Hm, called for SmallFry and got Lysol/Ivan. What happens if I try and call Ivan?

[whiskytango]

Do Cherry switches share the same bottom half? In other words, could I use the bottom half of a black switch with a blue stem and spring and essentially have a blue switch? I am assuming the top halves of the housings are all the same.

So if you had the switches installed in one of the custom plates such as the phantom plates from WFD, you could just change the top half of the switch out and have a completely new switch type?

[IvanIvanovich]

Housing is identical on all MX switch except locking, only differences are with stem/spring combinations.

[The_Beast]

Do Cherry switches share the same bottom half? In other words, could I use the bottom half of a black switch with a blue stem and spring and essentially have a blue switch? I am assuming the top halves of the housings are all the same.

So if you had the switches installed in one of the custom plates such as the phantom plates from WFD, you could just change the top half of the switch out and have a completely new switch type?

Yes, switch bottoms and tops are the same with every switch except the MX locks. So you can change springs or stems with any cherry switch. I could take a switch that was originally a black switch and make an ergo clear, which is an entirely different spring and stem with no problem at all

[SmallFry]

CPT calls, Ivan appears. CPT calls, SmallFry appears. YEW IS AWESOME SUPERHEROBRO!

[L4yercake]

Do 7x Spacerbars exist in Thick PBT? I have a feeling I'm going to have a MX Mini soon and its one of my concerns as well as the short right shift. Although I believe RGB sets were made at one point?

And anywhere to purchase magenta LED's? What kinda of LED's do I want, I've been reading around and I see 3mm and 5mm both work?

[SmallFry]

Unless you get actual Cherry PBT sets, 7x PBT spacebars are unicorns.
Magenta LED's are a mystery to me, sorry. I think that if you can find the wavelength you could find them relatively cheap and abundant on Digikey/Mouser. I don't know the wavelength however.

[L4yercake]

If it helps, the ones from a Ducky YOTD Reds?

And I just noticed I missed out on feng's spacerbar group buy, the humanity!

[alaricljs]

No thick PBT 7x spacebars.  Ever.   Show me one to prove me wrong

[SmallFry]

I looked up Violet on Mouser and got this link...here. I think these are 3mm and will work.
If that link doesn't work follow this path to get to the product or search the Xicon 351-3314-RC:
All Products » Optoelectronics » LED Indication » Standard LEDs - Through Hole » Xicon 351-3314-RC

[SmallFry]

No thick PBT 7x spacebars.  Ever.   Show me one to prove me wrong

Er, aren't Cherry sets a PBT spacebar if you get a set of dye subs?

[IvanIvanovich]

Right only old Cherry PBT set have thick, most easy to find on dyesubs Cherry sets, but some very old lasered set will also have them, like this one should but I can't guarantee you that 100%. All the keys on it should be MX compatible though, not like recent MY thin PBT with that inbuild stabs garbage and it has the nice Cherry font not that uglier one they are using now and will have smooth lasering not rough.
Depend what you are needing the led for, switch 2x3mm, 3mm or lock lights 3mm, 5mm on what size. You should be looking for 2.8-3.4fV, 20ma, 3000mc led.

[L4yercake]

So this should have a thick x7 PBT Spacebar? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-D-91275-PS-2-Keyboard-G81-3000LPDUS-00-/271156209116?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3f222b65dc)

Time to bust out the rit dye!

[llovro]

is Macintosh Keyboard (M0110) mechanical? If so what switches it uses?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Macintosh_Plus_Keyboard.jpg

[alaricljs]

No thick PBT 7x spacebars.  Ever.   Show me one to prove me wrong

Er, aren't Cherry sets a PBT spacebar if you get a set of dye subs?

My point being that I have yet to see one and I keep hearing "should" instead of "does"

[alaricljs]

is Macintosh Keyboard (M0110) mechanical? If so what switches it uses?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Macintosh_Plus_Keyboard.jpg

Yes, some form of alps

[IvanIvanovich]

Don't dye that nice vintage PBT set, it is not likely to come out well dying used key from my experience. Most likely it will come out uneven and highlight the hell out of any scratches and wear. I have thick PBT spacebars from Cherry two 8x from typewriters and 7x on my HASRO set. If I had a camera I would take you some photos to prove the existence but you can just take my word for it.

[SmallFry]

IIRC, salmon/pink (depending on whom you ask).

[IvanIvanovich]

No, M0110 have these:

[blueasjim]

I sent a PM to someone because I wasn't sure where to ask this question, then I saw this thread.

Oops.

Anyways, what is the image size I can go with if I wanted to put an image on the R4 (number key row) and the backspace key?

Thanks.

[alaricljs]

What company is producing the keycap?  (presumably WASD)

[blueasjim]

What company is producing the keycap?  (presumably WASD)

Yeah, I think you'd have to go bulk anywhere else... Although I'm not 100% sure.
My wife wants a special set made... so I was looking through some images to see what I could possibly do.

[Champloo]

I've got WYSE keycaps on a QFR right now, the top num row and the alphas and I am looking for ideas on how to fill in the rest of the board.  I've thought about the black modifiers from SP or maybe finding some cherry stuff that may match the color scheme but I'm hoping you guys are more creative than I am.

[alaricljs]

WASD recommends a minimum of 200x200 for a standard cap, you can of course multiply that out by the keycap width to get the appropriate size for larger keys.  Backspace is 2x so 400x200 minimum, just keep the ratio and pump up the resolution for a nice clear image.

[CPTBadAss]

I've got WYSE keycaps on a QFR right now, the top num row and the alphas and I am looking for ideas on how to fill in the rest of the board.  I've thought about the black modifiers from SP or maybe finding some cherry stuff that may match the color scheme but I'm hoping you guys are more creative than I am.

There's Klaxon, Toxic, Raindrop, and CCnG round 2 group buys running. See if you like any of those color schemes. You can also try Sherryton's store for ideas.

[blueasjim]

WASD recommends a minimum of 200x200 for a standard cap, you can of course multiply that out by the keycap width to get the appropriate size for larger keys.  Backspace is 2x so 400x200 minimum, just keep the ratio and pump up the resolution for a nice clear image.

Thank you.