What's your layout?

[ianxblog]

So, apart from the board, what layout do you guys type on?

I've seen mostly qwerty out there.

I use qwerty, and always want to make the switch to colemak. But I can't stand 2 hours without switching back because I feel useless watching at my keyboard to type, and typing at 10wpm like a grandma.
And I get mad like my GF or my friends are talking to me and I want to answer quickly but I can't LOL.

So, what you guys use?
Is there any tips to do the switch?

Im pretty fast at qwerty already (100 wpm average on membranes). So is it worth switching either to DVORAK or COLEMAK?
From what i've seen on keyboard layout analyzer (You input a text and the thing analyzes what layout is better to type that) and it always ended (By a minimal edge) on colemak. (I Speak spanish)
Also Colemak is easier to learn from qwerty. So..

 

[hoggy]

Switching will be awkward for a while - you just have to keep at it.

Why do you want to switch - is it for comfort or for speed?

[tp4tissue]

Not Necessary !!!!!!

ultimate speed limited by brain function... the layout isn't the problem..

[Snarfangel]

I use qwerty on a TypeMatrix at home, and the same thing on a BS keyboard at work. However, I just got a Cherry 142-key matrix POS keyboard that I am going to play around with with every layout you can imagine. I doubt qwerty will even touch it.

So probably Colemak, Maltron,  MTGAP, HIEAMTSRN (adjusted to a matrix layout), and a bunch of others. Hey, with eight rows (and 18 columns) to play with, I can put my home keys on the fourth row,  a number pad in the middle, and my thumbs on the bottom.

[gropingmantis]

I use Dvorak. I am slower with Dvorak than I was with Qwerty but it is soooo much more comfortable that the benefit far outweighs the negative.

[ianxblog]

I use Dvorak. I am slower with Dvorak than I was with Qwerty but it is soooo much more comfortable that the benefit far outweighs the negative.

How long have you been using dvorak?

[angelic_sedition]

Check out tarmak. You don't have to switch all at once. You can maintain most of your speed during the switch. Search tarmak in this thread: http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1467&p=1

[intelli78]

IMO, cognition is generally the bottleneck, not typing speed. That's particularly true if you can type 100 WPM+.

I experimented with DVORAK for about a week before deciding I didn't care to follow through with it. At first, it's VERY difficult to rewire your brain, as you're overriding a deeply ingrained habit. Probably great brain exercise, though. 

[davkol]

I switched from Czech QWERTY to Colemak 2.5 years ago. Went basically cold turkey. Sure, first week/month was a bit annoying, but life ain't easy, right? Passed the former QWERTY speed in about 6 months with barely any training, which was a mistake. Therefore, a hint: do practice, at least a few minutes every day before going to bed; even three 10fastfingers.com tests a day make a huge difference in the long run. And definitely don't look at your keyboard/fingers; it's stupid and you should never do it when trying to touch type.

Nowadays, I can comfortably type in Colemak, my average speed is at least 15 % higher than the former top speed on QWERTY, in bursts 30+ % higher... sometimes with 99.5+ % accuracy on average.

However, I'm thinking of switching to Dvorak on staggered physical layout (to enjoy benefits of an ANSI standard) and some custom layout on my ergo keyboards, because I want to convert to a 40% layout with a bunch of layers anyway (i.e. parenthesis and other special symbols on the home row with a modifier, diacritics and typographic symbols on the home row with another modifier, probably the number row on the home row with yet another modifier... and the same thing with the nav cluster).

[gropingmantis]

I use Dvorak. I am slower with Dvorak than I was with Qwerty but it is soooo much more comfortable that the benefit far outweighs the negative.

How long have you been using dvorak?

Ive been using Dvorak at home for about 3 years. The main reason my speed has not improved was because at work (where I do 70-80% of my typing) I was still using Qwerty. That was until about 3 months ago when I finally got them to provide a Dvorak board. I would say I am just below the speed I was with Qwerty now.

[Tony]

I am a Colemak user for two years with speed of 67-70wpm. I used to be a Qwerty typist with speed 60wpm for 17 years.

Switching process is tough for the first three weeks, but if you survive past it, then it gradually become better and better.

During switching process, you are quite slower, so be careful to choose the timing when you don't have much to type.

For detailed info day-by-day of my switching experience, pls look at my signature.

[ianxblog]

I don't want to sound offensive or anything, is just an observation.

I think the guys are right, maybe speed isn't about the layout. It's about the brain and the finger speed.

17 is only my age and I type at 115wmp peak on qwerty.

Anyways I decided im not doing the switch. I dont have any RSI or injuries and find very confortable and so experienced with qwerty, I cant stand a switch for like 20 minutes.

Useful info, tho. 

[Tony]

You are young and obsessive about speed. If so, stick at Qwerty for now.

If you think of typing feel and comfort, then (and only then) consider switching to a new layout.

[angelic_sedition]

Yeah, I agree. If speed is your only consideration, then I wouldn't recommend switching your layout.

[nomaded]

I've been typing Dvorak as my logical layout for almost 10 years now.

I started learning Dvorak on the physical layout of a Touchstream/MacNTouch, which used a columnized, keyless layout. After a while, I moved to a PC104 physical layout with Dvorak. Stayed there for a few years. Then I got a couple TECKs, so I was using a modified Dvorak logical layout on that physical layout. Currently, I'm using a custom Dvorak logical layout on a ErgoDox physical layout.

I originally switched just to see what Dvorak would be like for typing. I found it to be much more comfortable. It also allowed me to learn how to type more properly with all my fingers, compared to how I was typing Qwerty.

[Linkbane]

You are young and obsessive about speed. If so, stick at Qwerty for now.

If you think of typing feel and comfort, then (and only then) consider switching to a new layout.

Disagree. I am young and obsessive about speed; in fact, that's the only reason that I switched from QWERTY to Dvorak. I was at about 80 wpm when I switched, and within two and a half months, I'd gotten to 100 wpm. Of course, I practiced frequently and for hours, but that's expected. Now it's been a bit over a year and I've reached 160 wpm. If you care about speed it's worth the switch to me, but most people learn Colemak anyways. It's closer to QWERTY and that's good and bad; some people report difficulty switching between them because they are quite similar in many regards.

On topic, I use standard Dvorak, and I wouldn't switch any of the keys. I really like the 'l' placement, actually.

[ianxblog]

I'm not that obsessed with speed really. I would be happy with 80 wpm average.
It's about comfort. I spend hours in the PC and will be studying and working at it probably.
So, ergonomics is my concern. Long-time typing sessions with no drawbacks.

[madereth]

I've been using Colemak for about 2 years now.  I switched because I realized my hands were resting in really strained positions and I wanted to retrain myself to properly touch type and rest in a good position.  I had too much muscle memory with Qwerty to develop good habits, so I switched to clear that all out.

I used Amphetype and gtypist every night for 2 weeks then made the switch at work.

I'm only up to 60-70WPM with Colemak and I was 80-90 with Qwerty.  Despite this, I regret nothing.  My hands are much more comfortable and there is much less straining.

It's great to be 17 and typing up a storm, but it probably will catch up to you.  I wish that I had the foresight to switch and invest in Ergonomics before things got bad.

[Oobly]

Modified AdNW BU-Teck layout (for English) on a DIY ergo board when I can and QWERTY on a standard board when I have to.

[Hazel]

Colemak all the way.

I spent about a month learning Dvorak; I liked the idea of it, but it just never felt right.  I experimented with some other layouts, but never seriously.  Then I tried Colemak and it clicked almost immediately.  As soon as I got to 30wpm I switched permanently and never looked back.  It just feels right to me.

A year ago, I was typing 45wpm on Qwerty.  Today, on Colemak, I average 60-70wpm.

[Linkbane]

Colemak all the way.

I spent about a month learning Dvorak; I liked the idea of it, but it just never felt right.  I experimented with some other layouts, but never seriously.  Then I tried Colemak and it clicked almost immediately.  As soon as I got to 30wpm I switched permanently and never looked back.  It just feels right to me.

A year ago, I was typing 45wpm on Qwerty.  Today, on Colemak, I average 60-70wpm.

Well, if we want to compare speed increase, 80 to 160 in a year?
But in actuality I think that this post best shows how arbitrary it is for layout; there are just feelings that you'll get typing on each layout, and one will suit you more than the other.

[EvillePanda]

I use Dvorak at home and at work.  It's a lot easier now that I have keyboards that are programmable or pre-programmed with the layout.  The only difficulty I have is when I have to type on an end user's keyboard.  But that's usually only for a minute or two.

I just recently switched from Qwerty, so it was slow going at first.  I practice every day on sites like 10 fast fingers and here: http://www.typeonline.co.uk/typingspeed.php?

[Nixietube]

german iso with some modifications for a more comfortable life

[Oobly]

Colemak all the way.

I spent about a month learning Dvorak; I liked the idea of it, but it just never felt right.  I experimented with some other layouts, but never seriously.  Then I tried Colemak and it clicked almost immediately.  As soon as I got to 30wpm I switched permanently and never looked back.  It just feels right to me.

A year ago, I was typing 45wpm on Qwerty.  Today, on Colemak, I average 60-70wpm.

Well, if we want to compare speed increase, 80 to 160 in a year?
But in actuality I think that this post best shows how arbitrary it is for layout; there are just feelings that you'll get typing on each layout, and one will suit you more than the other.

+1!

I find it's quite a personal thing. It can be a problem when someone tries a few layouts, finds the one that suits them and then simply states that that one is the "best". ALL layouts have some compromises and sometimes even if the metrics show one as being worse than another, it will "feel" the best to someone, and that's what matters most.

It's nice, however, if people can give the reasons they like a particular layout most, since that can help others to decide if that layout is worth trying or not.

I like BU-Teck / AdNW because it gives a nice alternating rhythm to typing, all the vowels (and vowel-like characters such as Y and H) are on one side (like Dvorak), the most used characters are on the home keys, there is a good balanced finger usage (index and middle fingers do most of the work) and it's very different from QWERTY (which can be both a good and a bad thing, but in my case it means I can learn the layout without affecting my QWERTY skills which I need for everyday work). I have managed to relearn the edit shortcuts without a problem (Ctrl-C, Crtl-V, etc).

Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Norman, QGMLW (Carpalx), etc. are ALL better than QWERTY and IMHO it's worth learning one of them if you use a keyboard often, although that's another personal thing. For some, it's actually not worth the change (they don't use a keyboard enough to justify the unlearning / relearning effort or they have used QWERTY for so long that they just don't want to change or would take a very long time to see a benefit from another layout).

[EvillePanda]

To add, since I've learned Dvorak, Qwerty is awkward and difficult to switch back to .  It's just easier for me to memorize the few keys I need on Qwerty boards than to remember how to type on them.

[Kliee]

Even though I'm french and should use horrible AZERTY Fr, my school's computer are all equiped with US QWERTY. I took the habit of typing on them, especially for code, and one day, after I discovered that you can write better French with a QWERTY set in US international, I found myself not wanting to type on an AZERTY ever again.

So, I use QWERTY US, which is conveniant because it's the most available layout   

The most famous ergo layout for French is BÉPO, and one my friend is really found of that layout. She uses it on a typematrix, and says she really likes it. But I can't stand a layout with already accentuated letters. For that, I prefer "dead keys". Choosing your accent first then the letter, allowing a lot of combinations.

If I ever learn an ergo layout, I guess it will be DVORAK, even though it's not really made for French...

[Linkbane]

Even though I'm french and should use horrible AZERTY Fr, my school's computer are all equiped with US QWERTY. I took the habit of typing on them, especially for code, and one day, after I discovered that you can write better French with a QWERTY set in US international, I found myself not wanting to type on an AZERTY ever again.

So, I use QWERTY US, which is conveniant because it's the most available layout   

The most famous ergo layout for French is BÉPO, and one my friend is really found of that layout. She uses it on a typematrix, and says she really likes it. But I can't stand a layout with already accentuated letters. For that, I prefer "dead keys". Choosing your accent first then the letter, allowing a lot of combinations.

If I ever learn an ergo layout, I guess it will be DVORAK, even though it's not really made for French...

If you learn Dvorak, that's nearly pointless. There aren't any layouts that I know of using classic Dvorak with dead keys, so you'd have to do that yourself. Also, it's not optimized for French at all and it really isn't 'ergonomic' as you call it. It'd be like me using Neo or something stupid like that. Don't waste your time learning Dvorak, it's really either BEPO or QW- or AZ- ERTY.

[ideus]

I am a Colemak user for two years with speed of 67-70wpm. I used to be a Qwerty typist with speed 60wpm for 17 years.

Switching process is tough for the first three weeks, but if you survive past it, then it gradually become better and better.

During switching process, you are quite slower, so be careful to choose the timing when you don't have much to type.

For detailed info day-by-day of my switching experience, pls look at my signature.

If you got pretty much the same speed with colemak, I wonder what was the benefit of the change...

[jwaz]

Colemak!

OP: It's worth switching if you think the ergonomic benefits are worthwhile for you, don't expect to see a drastic speed increase once you become proficient though, instead, expect a more comfortable typing experience.

[ideus]

Colemak!

OP: It's worth switching if you think the ergonomic benefits are worthwhile for you, don't expect to see a drastic speed increase once you become proficient though, instead, expect a more comfortable typing experience.

I do not have any discomfort with qwerty though. What I would like to understand is what is the value of switching: I am considering to give colemak a try, but I am not sure if the effort worth it.

[jwaz]

Colemak!

OP: It's worth switching if you think the ergonomic benefits are worthwhile for you, don't expect to see a drastic speed increase once you become proficient though, instead, expect a more comfortable typing experience.

I do not have any discomfort with qwerty though. What I would like to understand is what is the value of switching: I am considering to give colemak a try, but I am not sure if the effort worth it.

My statement was Colemak is more comfortable, not qwerty is uncomfortable. Read about the benefits in the colemak.org faq. If you still feel qwerty is ideal for you after reading through the possible benefits then there is no reason for you to switch.

[Kliee]

If you learn Dvorak, that's nearly pointless. There aren't any layouts that I know of using classic Dvorak with dead keys, so you'd have to do that yourself. Also, it's not optimized for French at all and it really isn't 'ergonomic' as you call it. It'd be like me using Neo or something stupid like that. Don't waste your time learning Dvorak, it's really either BEPO or QW- or AZ- ERTY.

Well, DVORAK is reputated to be way better to write French than QWERTY/AZERTY even though it's made for English. Your fingers may travel a little more than when you're typing English, but still way less than with QWERTY and AZERTY that are not so far from each other anyway. I had a lot of friends using that layout in my school... especially one who have a problem with his hands and need a more "peaceful" layout than QWERTY. Also a typematrix user.

Concerning the dead keys, a layout supported by Windows and GNU/Linux, called canadian french DVORAK, alterates DVORAK the same way that QWERTY international alterates QWERTY, so it's possible.

I don't know if I'll one day invest the time and effort to switch, anyway, but if I do it'll most likely be DVORAK...

[JustCallMeCrash]

I've been typing Dvorak for about 3 years and build my ErgoDox boards last year.... I can no longer type on any other board in the office, which is a PITA for the IT guy, I assure you.  I end up dragging one of my EDox around with me to plug up wherever I go!  That said, I've never been more comfortable typing in my life (20 years using QWERTY, btw).  It did take about 2 months to really feel like I was getting somewhere with Dvorak, but it's been time well spent.
I seem to be having an off day today. Visit the Typing Test and try!

[spspencer]

I learned to touch type QWERTY in '88. Many times I can't tell someone *where* a particular key is without a bit of thought, but my fingers can find it right away if I let them. Basically, QWERTY has become a reflex for me. I want to learn DVORAK or COLEMAK because I understand the benefits. Maybe I'll learn soon.

I have horrible wrist pain, so I'm actually using a modified QWERTY right now. I'm using fewer physical keys on an ergodox. It is working out pretty good, so much so, I hate typing on a standard keyboard now. My hand movement is minimal (within the confines of QWERTY.) Now I just need to get my brain switched to a modern layout.
 
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=SPAJZH&hash=8904dce32b820a3fdfc746fdecbf6e0f

I need to find a better place for the shift keys, they're a little bit of a reach right now for plain shifting. But the left thumb layer/shift/gui cluster works really well. It's easy to hit the layer for numbers/punctuation, and since the tip of my thumb curls out naturally, its easy to hold down layer+shift, layer+gui, or layer+shift+gui.

Using SA keycaps gives the ergodox a bowl-ish shape which is comfortable for me. "SA row 1" for top, "SA row 3" for mid, and inverted "SA row 1" for bottom. I cheated and used some row 2 on the bottom because I ran out of row 1's. I'd like to get some sideways row 1's for the purple keys someday.


***RANT***
I've accepted the fact that I'm a QWERTY guy, and have the screwed up wrists to prove it. But I despise the QWERTY inertia seen everywhere. Why on Earth do smart phones have QWERTY layouts? How barbaric is the school system that teaches middle school children to type QWERTY? I'm going to opt my children out of keyboarding on religious grounds and homeschool them in DVORAK. It's just monstrous to foist QWERTY on the next generation for no other reason than it's the status quo!!! 
***/RANT***

[Linkbane]

While I type Dvorak and recommend it for wrist pain (few rolls and more alternation, better for me), QWERTY probably is better for smartphones, because you don't have to alternate as much and it's easier to use the left hand by itself. Try typing one handed in Dvorak, ugh.

I encourage you to change layouts; it took me less than three months of frequent practice to get from 80 on QWERTY to 100 on Dvorak, and it's only been going up since. Try and see how you like it, the punctuation placement is divine.

[angelic_sedition]

***RANT***
I've accepted the fact that I'm a QWERTY guy, and have the screwed up wrists to prove it. But I despise the QWERTY inertia seen everywhere. Why on Earth do smart phones have QWERTY layouts? How barbaric is the school system that teaches middle school children to type QWERTY? I'm going to opt my children out of keyboarding on religious grounds and homeschool them in DVORAK. It's just monstrous to foist QWERTY on the next generation for no other reason than it's the status quo!!! 
***/RANT***

Incidentally, phones are the only place I use qwerty. I find it easier to swype since the most frequently used letters aren't all concentrated on the home row.

[wuqe]

Incidentally, phones are the only place I use qwerty. I find it easier to swype since the most frequently used letters aren't all concentrated on the home row.

Agree; I use Swype, too, and Dvorak Swype is a joke (tried it with SwiftKey flow) with all those vowels clustered together. I like that Qwerty's alleged original intent (space out the common keys for typewriter mechanisms) works for Swype as well.

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Your layout is neat! My preferred thumb cluster looks a lot like yours, but I have Enter moved to where you have right shift, to make way for shift. I just found I don't use enter as part of my main typing flow, only at the end, so it is fine for me to have it a little farther out of the way.

Love the rage keyboard: "FFFFF..."

[spspencer]

Your layout is neat! My preferred thumb cluster looks a lot like yours, but I have Enter moved to where you have right shift, to make way for shift. I just found I don't use enter as part of my main typing flow, only at the end, so it is fine for me to have it a little farther out of the way.

Love the rage keyboard: "FFFFF..."

Great point on the right shift/enter! I think I'll switch. I have on occasion accidentally hit the "enter" key when going for space--It gets annoying when filling out webforms or passwords.

[nomaded]

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=SPAJZH&hash=8904dce32b820a3fdfc746fdecbf6e0f

I need to find a better place for the shift keys, they're a little bit of a reach right now for plain shifting. But the left thumb layer/shift/gui cluster works really well. It's easy to hit the layer for numbers/punctuation, and since the tip of my thumb curls out naturally, its easy to hold down layer+shift, layer+gui, or layer+shift+gui.

When I first got my ErgoDox, I also went with shift on the thumb clusters. But after typing that way for over a month, I found that I was still having severe problems hitting shift with my thumbs. I would sometimes hit space or backspace or enter or control - all of these keys are hit by my thumbs. And my hands were all confused if I typed on a different keyboard, like a TECK or my laptop.

So I ended up putting shift back on the pinkies, and put a layer modifier in the thumb clusters instead. This is working significantly better for me, especially when I'm doing some scripting, and need to hit non-alphanumeric keys. I can hit them all one handed.

Check out my layout in my .sig.

***RANT***
I've accepted the fact that I'm a QWERTY guy, and have the screwed up wrists to prove it. But I despise the QWERTY inertia seen everywhere. Why on Earth do smart phones have QWERTY layouts? How barbaric is the school system that teaches middle school children to type QWERTY? I'm going to opt my children out of keyboarding on religious grounds and homeschool them in DVORAK. It's just monstrous to foist QWERTY on the next generation for no other reason than it's the status quo!!! 
***/RANT***

I have no problems with softkeyboards on phones/tablets being in Qwerty. It's a completely different interface. You're hitting the keys with your thumbs and you're looking at the screen anyways, so no real concept of touchtyping.

[MsYutai]

I use "norman" layout. And have been using it for about 10 months?

I wouldn't recommend it. It's easy to type a lot of colloquial words-- like maybe it would be good for someone who drafts a lot of emails or something. But for coding it can get really awkward at times. I also don't like how the layout is right-handed-- I think I'd prefer my layout be more left-handed than anything since I already use my right hand for the mouse.

If I could go back and re-do my choice, I'd pick Colemak. I'm still interested in learning Colemak when the time is right because nowadays I only get like MAX 80 wpm and probably average like ~65 wpm overall on norman. On QWERTY I could get ~85 wpm no problem.

[fatchoi]

I'm switching back and forth Colemak and QWERTY. I could type >130wpm on 10fastfingers using QWERTY and around 80 using Colemak.
It's fun using different layout ans it seems my muscles memory could recognize another set of words, just like when I'm typing in other languages.

Accuracy using Colemak is lower a little bit though, but so far typing on Colemak seems to have reduced my fingers movement.