MD does another round: your favorite kbd kit! (hint: Ergodox, $199)

[AKmalamute]

Yes, that keyboard


THE ERGO DOX IS ON MASS DROP

[dorkvader]

They have the PBT keycaps as well.

And it's also the return of the $5000 cold plated CNC case. You know you want one!

[SpAmRaY]

No assembly this time I guess.

[tp4tissue]

They have the PBT keycaps as well.

And it's also the return of the $5000 cold plated CNC case. You know you want one!

[AKmalamute]

they also have a GB for just the blank PBT key caps here eventually to reach $45
(maybe that's what you meant Dorkvader?)

[dorkvader]

they also have a GB for just the blank PBT key caps here eventually to reach $45
(maybe that's what you meant Dorkvader?)

You can add the keycaps as part of the order process on the ergodox page.

[xmagusx]

No assembly this time I guess.

Considering that the previous round hasn't shipped yet, I'm unsurprised.

Also to note -- no red switches this time.

[lcs]

No assembly this time I guess.

Considering that the previous round hasn't shipped yet, I'm unsurprised.

Also to note -- no red switches this time.

It has shipped to me.

[tbc]

did massdrop say/imply that WON'T ever do another batch with assembly or are they just waiting for the previous drop w/ assembly to finish first?

i absolutely need the assembly being done; I don't have any equipment/room/desire to solder it myself and I really rather not not deal with shipping it multiple times to get it to an assembler.

[rowdy]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51239

)

[Pacifist]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

[minho]

No assembly this time I guess.

Wait, the image and description and title of the MD seems to indicate that it does require assembly. Does it...?

[AKmalamute]

No assembly this time I guess.

Wait, the image and description and title of the MD seems to indicate that it does require assembly. Does it...?

You'd be buying a kit ... loose pile o' parts. Which you get to assemble.

In some of the previous runs of the drop you could pay extra for an associate of MD to assemble the kit for you. But that's proven to be sufficiently problematic, or whatever, that it's not an option.

So, as said above if you want someone else to put  the kit together, you have to arrange that yourself probably by double-shipping everything.

[Linkbane]

No assembly this time I guess.

Wait, the image and description and title of the MD seems to indicate that it does require assembly. Does it...?

The mechanical assembly shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm sure that we could find someone who knows what he's doing to do the soldering.
It's not too complicated, especially as there's a great guide on the site.
Are you considering buying one?

[dorkvader]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

[Pacifist]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

[kektr0city]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

please elaborate.  what else other than what's included in these kits would you need to make a working keyboard?

[Air tree]

They have the PBT keycaps as well.

And it's also the return of the $5000 cold plated CNC case. You know you want one!

Show Image

Never mind :(

[Pacifist]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

please elaborate.  what else other than what's included in these kits would you need to make a working keyboard?

caps and switches

[Air tree]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

please elaborate.  what else other than what's included in these kits would you need to make a working keyboard?

caps and switches

250$ is not bad for a keyboard like this is not bad. Same price as a topre.

Still a custom board is still worth the price.

[Linkbane]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

please elaborate.  what else other than what's included in these kits would you need to make a working keyboard?

caps and switches

It comes with switches. But honestly if you're on Geekhack. you should probably at least have one set of spare keycaps if this is going to be a daily driver.

[kektr0city]

Why are ergodoxes so expensive?

$200 is one of the cheaper customs for sure.

That's just the base kit. When you start adding the things you need for it, it skyrockets

please elaborate.  what else other than what's included in these kits would you need to make a working keyboard?

caps and switches

It comes with switches. But honestly if you're on Geekhack. you should probably at least have one set of spare keycaps if this is going to be a daily driver.

Also comes with caps.  There's an option for blank caps.

[tbc]

It comes with switches. But honestly if you're on Geekhack. you should probably at least have one set of spare keycaps if this is going to be a daily driver.

i don'tthink a normal TKL set will fit on the ergo dox :/

[Linkbane]

It comes with switches. But honestly if you're on Geekhack. you should probably at least have one set of spare keycaps if this is going to be a daily driver.

i don't think a normal TKL set will fit on the ergo dox :/

There wouldn't be enough 2x keys, true. I suppose a TKL set could be used, but you'd be using 1x keys where larger keys would be, kind of defeating some of the ergonomic aspect.

[minho]

The mechanical assembly shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm sure that we could find someone who knows what he's doing to do the soldering.
It's not too complicated, especially as there's a great guide on the site.
Are you considering buying one?

Yea! I'm just afraid of the soldering part though - realistically, if I did get one, I wouldn't be able to assemble it until next summer or December at earliest as I don't have time to learn/practice soldering 

[Linkbane]

The mechanical assembly shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm sure that we could find someone who knows what he's doing to do the soldering.
It's not too complicated, especially as there's a great guide on the site.
Are you considering buying one?

Yea! I'm just afraid of the soldering part though - realistically, if I did get one, I wouldn't be able to assemble it until next summer or December at earliest as I don't have time to learn/practice soldering 

I know how to solder decently, but I could have someone I know, who's in his late fifties, to assemble it. There's a video on youtube (here) showing assembly, it's not too complicated given that all the spaces are lined out. Would probably take several hours, though.

Still considering? =)
I'm strongly considering canceling my Shine 3 order and getting this instead, it's just so much more expensive, almost $100 more with keycaps.

[minho]

The mechanical assembly shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm sure that we could find someone who knows what he's doing to do the soldering.
It's not too complicated, especially as there's a great guide on the site.
Are you considering buying one?

Yea! I'm just afraid of the soldering part though - realistically, if I did get one, I wouldn't be able to assemble it until next summer or December at earliest as I don't have time to learn/practice soldering 

I know how to solder decently, but I could have someone I know, who's in his late fifties, to assemble it. There's a video on youtube (here) showing assembly, it's not too complicated given that all the spaces are lined out. Would probably take several hours, though.

Still considering? =)
I'm strongly considering canceling my Shine 3 order and getting this instead, it's just so much more expensive, almost $100 more with keycaps.

So I watched the video and read a basic soldering guide online (http://mightyohm.com/files/soldercomic/FullSolderComic_EN.pdf), and have a few questions. Do you know if the MD has the through-hole diodes or the surface-mount diodes?

Also, he places the solder on a lot of the pads before putting the diodes in. This seems to be more efficient in creating a keyboard, but wouldn't the solder cool pretty fast?

(Haha sorry if you can't answer these - if you can't, where should I post these questions? I don't post much, mostly lurka bunch )

[Linkbane]

So I watched the video and read a basic soldering guide online (http://mightyohm.com/files/soldercomic/FullSolderComic_EN.pdf), and have a few questions. Do you know if the MD has the through-hole diodes or the surface-mount diodes?

Also, he places the solder on a lot of the pads before putting the diodes in. This seems to be more efficient in creating a keyboard, but wouldn't the solder cool pretty fast?

(Haha sorry if you can't answer these - if you can't, where should I post these questions? I don't post much, mostly lurka bunch )

I saw that also at the beginning. I'm assuming that the reason for that is that he can't hold the diode in place and place solder at the same time, which would be quite dangerous. I seem to remember that he ends up going over it again, just to heat up the solder that's already there, freeing his other hand from holding up the solder container. If you look nearer the end of the video, you'll see that he uses through-hole diodes (I don't think surface-mount is compatible with Cherry switches).

You could ask me on facebook, or you could post it in the keyboards section. You could also probably use the making stuff together section, but it'd probably take longer for you to get help that way.

[kolonelkadat]

Do you know if the MD has the through-hole diodes or the surface-mount diodes?

Also, he places the solder on a lot of the pads before putting the diodes in. This seems to be more efficient in creating a keyboard, but wouldn't the solder cool pretty fast?

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, Id rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components. A better way is to put all the diodes in, tape over them with masking tape so they dont fall out, flip the board over and solder them all at once. You will probably also want to build a jig out of perfboard so you can bend the legs super fast and easy. something like this

[Linkbane]

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, I'd rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components.

What's wrong with doing that?

[kolonelkadat]

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, I'd rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components.

What's wrong with doing that?

I dont guess theres anything "wrong" with it. But for me, its extra work for myself constantly flipping the board over and stuff. It's an increased risk of damaging the board, (say the solder partially obscures the hole so when you put the lead through it hits the solder and lifts the pad). It wastes thermal energy from the iron, slowing you down, increasing risk of cold joints.

I really cant think of a reason why you would do it. If its just a matter of holding the piece in place while its upside down, here a couple of methods I tend to use. http://i.imgur.com/nhoY9ED.jpg

[Linkbane]

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, I'd rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components.

What's wrong with doing that?

I dont guess theres anything "wrong" with it. But for me, its extra work for myself constantly flipping the board over and stuff. It's an increased risk of damaging the board, (say the solder partially obscures the hole so when you put the lead through it hits the solder and lifts the pad). It wastes thermal energy from the iron, slowing you down, increasing risk of cold joints.

I really cant think of a reason why you would do it. If its just a matter of holding the piece in place while its upside down, here a couple of methods I tend to use. http://i.imgur.com/nhoY9ED.jpg

Oh, that's what you meant. In the video, he does it only for the little black pieces on each switch. Not entirely sure what they are, but they're soldered onto the PCB and he didn't have to flip for that. He did do the normal method on everything else.

[Larken]

they give both smds and through holes. It's your choice what you wish to use.

[xmagusx]

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, Id rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components. A better way is to put all the diodes in, tape over them with masking tape so they dont fall out, flip the board over and solder them all at once. You will probably also want to build a jig out of perfboard so you can bend the legs super fast and easy. something like this

One type of diode that the pcb can accept is through-hole. The other is pad. It's your choice which you want to use.

Hell, if you're just in it for the party, use both. Pad on one side, through-hole on the other.

[Tisca]

I have some questions:

• case style options; what's classic and what's full hand?
• are the 1.5 caps in the massdrop set R1 to R4 or the same profile? (Buy the massdrop ED set or assemble a set elsewhere)
• what's the difference in Blank PBT DSA (option for the ergo dox) and the separately sold PBT DCS here:https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap?s=keycap
• anyone have pics of the anodized alu top plate and what color is it anodized in?
• when is the expected shipping date? I read June's order is barely fulfilled.
• If I buy today instead of committing, will I only be charged 199 if it reaches that in 9 days time?

[balefrost]

what's the difference in Blank PBT DSA (option for the ergo dox) and the separately sold PBT DCS here:https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap?s=keycap

I didn't notice that. Good eyes.

DSA profile keys are "spherical", and DCS keys are "cylindrical".

DCS profile is what keys on most keyboards today are like. If you buy a Ducky or a Filco or a Cooler Master, you're going to get DCS keycaps. They're curved horizontally but not vertically... as if a metal cylinder was pressed into the hot plastic of the keycap as it was cooling. Each row also has a different angle, so when you look at the keyboard from the side, there's an apparent curve across the rows.

DSA caps, on the other hand, are more "retro". They're curved both horizontally and vertically, giving each key a little bowl (as if a metal sphere was pressed into the hot plastic of the keycap as it cooled). Also, the keys in different rows are identical (except possibly "F" and "J"), so there's no overall "curve" in profile. But this also makes it easier to set up different keyboard layouts, like Dvorak or Colemak.

Signature Plastics has a page showing the difference.

[xmagusx]

I have some questions:

• case style options; what's classic and what's full hand?
• are the 1.5 caps in the massdrop set R1 to R4 or the same profile? (Buy the massdrop ED set or assemble a set elsewhere)
• what's the difference in Blank PBT DSA (option for the ergo dox) and the separately sold PBT DCS here:https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap?s=keycap
• anyone have pics of the anodized alu top plate and what color is it anodized in?
• when is the expected shipping date? I read June's order is barely fulfilled.
• If I buy today instead of committing, will I only be charged 199 if it reaches that in 9 days time?

* Classic is a case that's just big enough to house the keyboard, Full-Hand has a built-in wrist-rest.
Edit: Shamelessly stolen homaged from Larken's sig:
Classic:
Full Hand:

* All the included keycaps are DSA, which are medium and uniform height with spherical tops

* http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php details the differences between DSA and DCS quite well, along with some other profiles

* My latest MD ergodox order included the aluminum top plate, but it unfortunately has not arrived yet

* No set ship date, pretty much just "best effort" -- though I believe the current one should ship faster since there are no assembly services included with it

* The "final price" (IE what it gets down to eventually) is what everyone pays. Committing before the final price just means that you're willing to buy it at whatever the current price is rather than only buying if enough people sign up to lower it.

[Linkbane]

omfg
It was 19 last night.
Woke up, now it's 110. Lowest price unlocked.
Jesus.

[Tisca]

what's the difference in Blank PBT DSA (option for the ergo dox) and the separately sold PBT DCS here:https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap?s=keycap

I didn't notice that. Good eyes.

DSA profile keys are "spherical", and DCS keys are "cylindrical".

DCS profile is what keys on most keyboards today are like. If you buy a Ducky or a Filco or a Cooler Master, you're going to get DCS keycaps. They're curved horizontally but not vertically... as if a metal cylinder was pressed into the hot plastic of the keycap as it was cooling. Each row also has a different angle, so when you look at the keyboard from the side, there's an apparent curve across the rows.

DSA caps, on the other hand, are more "retro". They're curved both horizontally and vertically, giving each key a little bowl (as if a metal sphere was pressed into the hot plastic of the keycap as it cooled). Also, the keys in different rows are identical (except possibly "F" and "J"), so there's no overall "curve" in profile. But this also makes it easier to set up different keyboard layouts, like Dvorak or Colemak.

Signature Plastics has a page showing the difference.

Thanks, great explanation! Then the question is, would it be "better" or "worse" to get a DSA set with all caps being the same profile (R3)?

[Linkbane]

Thanks, great explanation! Then the question is, would it be "better" or "worse" to get a DSA set with all caps being the same profile (R3)?

It is generally concluded that spherical caps are for the look, not the feel. I tried using a typewriter with spherical caps, really did not like the feeling. Every key, as he said, feels the same and there's no guide for your fingers, no sculpt. Worse than flat keycaps to me because I had to lift my finger to move it up and down, which I could do by sliding on cylindrical, as there's no curve to the top. If I were to get the Dox, it would certainly be with the DCS caps.

However, if you don't type much or really want to change layout (unnecessary for me, touch typing Dvorak and all), or just really like the look, they're a fine choice.

[Tisca]

Thx Magus! Was your order from the batch in June or has there been another after that?

omfg
It was 19 last night.
Woke up, now it's 110. Lowest price unlocked.
Jesus.

Yeah, just refreshed the page and it more than doubled 

[phx]

argh the options are killing me.

full hand or classic?
what kind of caps? (go to the GB or find my own caps)
what switch?
to buy or not to buy?

ARGH

EDIT: does this board require the use of stabilizers? any suggestion on caps options other than going with the MD  set?

[Tisca]

Thanks, great explanation! Then the question is, would it be "better" or "worse" to get a DSA set with all caps being the same profile (R3)?

It is generally concluded that spherical caps are for the look, not the feel. I tried using a typewriter with spherical caps, really did not like the feeling. Every key, as he said, feels the same and there's no guide for your fingers, no sculpt. Worse than flat keycaps to me because I had to lift my finger to move it up and down, which I could do by sliding on cylindrical, as there's no curve to the top. If I were to get the Dox, it would certainly be with the DCS caps.

However, if you don't type much or really want to change layout (unnecessary for me, touch typing Dvorak and all), or just really like the look, they're a fine choice.

I'll probably convert it to a left-side only gaming kb asap. No idea what would be a good choice for that. So I assume the DCS set has different 1.5 profiles R1-R4 and that I couldn't get the same results taking the Tab caps off from other sets which would be all R3s?

[xmagusx]

argh the options are killing me.

full hand or classic?
what kind of caps? (go to the GB or find my own caps)
what switch?
to buy or not to buy?

ARGH

EDIT: does this board require the use of stabilizers? any suggestion on caps options other than going with the MD  set?

Here you go!
Classic -- that way you can use an ErgoDock if more get made
Caps -- find your own, there are enough cap GBs that you'll probably be happier with an extra bit of custom to make your Dox unique
Switch -- clear
Buy -- yes. Buy two. They're awesome.

Edit: Nope, no stabilizers needed, largest key is 2x (thumb cluster).

Additionally, MOZ made a nice ErgoDox layout sheet, it can be found here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46456.0

[Linkbane]

argh the options are killing me.

full hand or classic?
what kind of caps? (go to the GB or find my own caps)
what switch?
to buy or not to buy?

ARGH

EDIT: does this board require the use of stabilizers? any suggestion on caps options other than going with the MD  set?

I recommend classic. Full hand is really bulky and it's faster typing without resting the wrist imo.
Hard to find your own keycaps, there are way more 1.5x keys than on any set. I count eleven, not even including the thumb cluster. But if you get a big grab bag, you might be able to make your own set. i really wish they made other keycap colors like white, not a fan of black caps at all.

Most people like Clears, some also get it with Blues. I'm not a fan of Blacks personally so I would never recommend that. I prefer Blues, but I haven't tried Clears yet (some from the great spamray on the way). If I like them, I'll probably get the Dox.

No stabilizers are required, from the looks of the assembly video; they're hard to put on and mess with.

[phx]

ok classic it is.
yeah I much prefer a white set of caps. how did you count 11 1.5 keys? its symmetrical so it should be an even number. I counted 12.
and where do you get vertical 1.5 keys? 
it's gonna be hard to piece together a set with colors I like  and i dont see many GBs around here that comes with ergodox set

as for switches I might just use a spare bag of browns I have, saves myself 45 bucks.

[xmagusx]

ok classic it is.
yeah I much prefer a white set of caps. how did you count 11 1.5 keys? its symmetrical so it should be an even number. I counted 12.
and where do you get vertical 1.5 keys? 
it's gonna be hard to piece together a set with colors I like  and i dont see many GBs around here that comes with ergodox set

as for switches I might just use a spare bag of browns I have, saves myself 45 bucks.

12 places where you can use 1.5x keys, yes; four on the pinky edge, two on the index finger edge, same for both hands. Optionally you can use 1x keys in those positions if need be.

No, sadly most GBs don't include the ErgoDox layout currently, but each time MD does a group buy, the demand for the layout's inclusion goes up.

80 clear switches for 44 bucks is a nice deal. That said, if those would just sit in a bag for a year unused, yeah, put those browns into service and save yourself a few bucks.

Thx Magus! Was your order from the batch in June or has there been another after that?

Quite welcome. If this is drop five (which I believe it is), then it's my order from drop four that hasn't arrived, and my order for drop three that arrived the same week as the fourth drop started. If someone wants to try to afix dates to that, they're more than welcome, I honestly don't recall at this point.

[Linkbane]

Curses to my inability to count.
Agh, if the Shine wasn't so.. cool I wouldn't even think twice about canceling.

[Glod]

Do you know if the MD has the through-hole diodes or the surface-mount diodes?

Also, he places the solder on a lot of the pads before putting the diodes in. This seems to be more efficient in creating a keyboard, but wouldn't the solder cool pretty fast?

the diodes are clearly throughhole. If it were me, Id rather die than put solder on the pads before inserting the components. A better way is to put all the diodes in, tape over them with masking tape so they dont fall out, flip the board over and solder them all at once. You will probably also want to build a jig out of perfboard so you can bend the legs super fast and easy. something like this

actually although the pcb supports through hole diodes, the massdrop litster case does not support them, to use the massdrop case you must use SMD diodes. this is because the acrylic case sits flush on top of the pcb there is no space between PCB-ACRYLIC-SWITCH. Massdrop is still using their pictures of the ergodox supplies from round 1 with the through hole diodes, in reality it comes with SMD diodes.

trust me i have built 3

[Findecanor]

There wouldn't be enough 2x keys, true. I suppose a TKL set could be used, but you'd be using 1x keys where larger keys would be, kind of defeating some of the ergonomic aspect.

You would also need twelve 1.5× keys.

the diodes are clearly throughhole.

The description says that they are either throughole or surface-mounted ... and I think that previous kits have come with surface-mounted diodes.
Through-hole diodes don't fit on the upper side with the case that is used.
You could also mount through-hole diodes inside the switches, but then you would have to open them all... and the direction is reverse on the left side (or was it the other side?).
I am not sure, but perhaps you could use through-hole diodes outside the switches if you put them on the underside of the PCB ...