Lubing Vintage Blacks - Yes or No?

[GeorgeK]

I've got some vintage blacks that I'm going to be using in a NerD TKL and I can't decide whether or not to lube them.  Having done a fair bit of reading around I've come to the conclusion that there are two commonly held beliefs regarding this:

1) Yes!  Lube away!  It only makes them better!

2) No!  It defeats the whole purpose of them being vintage blacks and therefore smoother than regular blacks!

What are peoples thoughts?

GK

[skcheng]

YES!!!  Lube away!!!  My lubed vintage blacks are like "butta".   Stickers ..... I don't know?   I think they look cool!!   Spring choice is individual.   I have 45g blacks, 55g blacks, 60g blacks and 65g blacks.   Which one is best?   I have no idea LOL!!   

New blacks even lubed seem to be less smooth .....

[strict]

lubed vintage blacks > vintage blacks > lubed blacks > modern blacks

I've been working on rounding up a bunch of the smoothest vintage blacks I can find so that I can lube them with mkawas R2 thin lube and then throw them into a phantom I'm building. I've already gutted 3 wyse terminals and only have maybe 45 switches that I felt were smooth enough to be worthy of my project. I've got probably 250 just sitting in baggies that are way smoother than modern blacks but not nearly as smooth as the ones in the keepers bag.

Lubing even my "choice" vintage blacks makes a difference, but it's not nearly as profound as lubing a modern red/black switch. It's only really noticeable if you hit a key off center and cause it to press against the switch housing harder. That testing was done with one of the R1 thin lube kits so I expect it should be even better with the R2 kits.

[Oobly]

Go ahead and lube em!

I suspect modern Blacks can also feel as good as vintage Blacks if worn in properly. All MX switches should be worn in before lubing, IMHO.

[tp4tissue]

there's no such thing as "vintage blacks"

there is only such thing as   "broken in blacks"...

Any of the black switches,, once broken in > 10,000 key presses..  will be equivalently smooth..


Lube at that point is rather unnecessary..

Initially lubing Brand New black switches will prolong the time it takes to break in.

[daetsid]

there's no such thing as "vintage blacks"

there is only such thing as   "broken in blacks"...

Any of the black switches,, once broken in > 10,000 key presses..  will be equivalently smooth..


Lube at that point is rather unnecessary..

Initially lubing Brand New black switches will prolong the time it takes to break in.

 guess you never tried a brand new board from the period of 1986 to 1991 right? I am a big fan of blacks&vintage blacks and be sure, the differences are noticeable even NEW (and not broken in as you said).

[tp4tissue]

there's no such thing as "vintage blacks"

there is only such thing as   "broken in blacks"...

Any of the black switches,, once broken in > 10,000 key presses..  will be equivalently smooth..


Lube at that point is rather unnecessary..

Initially lubing Brand New black switches will prolong the time it takes to break in.

 guess you never tried a brand new board from the period of 1986 to 1991 right? I am a big fan of blacks&vintage blacks and be sure, the differences are noticeable even NEW (and not broken in as you said).

LIES


I've personally desoldered  several vintage boards .. and experimented on the smooth keys..

such as the E S and T keys..

If I swapped the stem of the vintage, into NEW key housings, the feel is NOT SMOOTH

If I swapped the stem of NEW keys, into OLD, VINTAGE  "E" "S" "T"  housings, the combination is smooth...


So this proves quite succinctly that the smoothness has NOTHING to do with Vintage Production,  only the Extent of broken-in-ness...


The plastic stems produced no noticeable difference between housings..  and so no matter what plastic it may or may not have been made out of, it is not the main contributor to actuation smoothness..

WHILE,,   the housing made a significant difference... and we KNOW that Copper is Copper  as far as the leaf springs go..

[Photekq]

If I swapped the stem of the vintage, into NEW key housings, the feel is NOT SMOOTH

If I swapped the stem of NEW keys, into OLD, VINTAGE  "E" "S" "T"  housings, the combination is smooth...


So this proves quite succinctly that the smoothness has NOTHING to do with Vintage Production,  only the Extent of broken-in-ness...

Erm, no.. That just proves that it's the bottom of the switch that makes the difference.

I've tried practically unused switches from the same period as daetsid and I can tell you that he's correct. It's not just wear that makes vintage blacks smooth.

[jacobolus]

Tp4, you’re straight-up wrong here. I found a basically unused (that is, not at all broken in) keyboard with “vintage” MX black switches, and the switches are much much smoother than any “modern” MX red/black switch. The difference is extremely obvious. If you hold a switch up to your ear as you press it, one makes a sound like a gentle breeze and the other sounds like a rockslide.

They still aren’t as smooth as a good condition green Alps switch though.

[awong]

Where can I buy vintage black?

[tp4tissue]

Tp4, you’re straight-up wrong here. I found a basically unused (that is, not at all broken in) keyboard with “vintage” MX black switches, and the switches are much much smoother than any “modern” MX red/black switch. The difference is extremely obvious. If you hold a switch up to your ear as you press it, one makes a sound like a gentle breeze and the other sounds like a rockslide.

They still aren’t as smooth as a good condition green Alps switch though.

How the HELL can you tell they're UNUSED... it's nearly Impossible to know...


vintage blacks, is GH mysticism at its finest....  pingpingping..

[Photekq]

I'm wrong but I won't admit it. I love spreading misinformation.

Heavily used switches are often smoother than unused ones.

Old, unused linear MX switches are often smoother than new, unused linear MX switches.

That's the truth.

[davkol]

For example, NIB keyboard, ABS keycaps in mint condition, consistent feel across the board,...?

[jacobolus]

How the HELL can you tell they're UNUSED... it's nearly Impossible to know...

They came on a Minicom IV TTY machine, and the double-shot ABS cherry keycaps had absolutely perfect surface texture. There’s no way someone typed on that for more than a month or two and kept such pristine ABS keycaps.

[strict]

Regardless of whatever makes them smooth, to me it's worth it to buy "vintage" or "worn-in" or whatever you want to call them blacks so that I don't have to be the poor sap to sit there and wear them down (assuming that is the only difference). On that same hand, I definitely think it takes way more than 10,000 presses to break in a switch. I used new reds at work everyday for 7 months and they feel like sandpaper compared to even the worst vintage blacks. I guarantee some of those keys were pressed way more than 10K times.

I am inclined to agree with the others that vintage blacks are indeed different than modern blacks more than just being broken in. IMO, they most likely have manufacturing differences that make them smoother than modern blacks. Cherry themselves have said they switch out molds over the years due to manufacturing fatigue and each mold is very slightly different than the one before it. That's why you have different sizes and designs of Cherry logos on the switch tops among other differences. I don't think there's any difference in the composition materials of the switches or stem as seems to be a popular claim, I just think the older stem & lower housing molds were smoother than the ones currently in use for whatever reason.

[tp4tissue]

Regardless of whatever makes them smooth, to me it's worth it to buy "vintage" or "worn-in" or whatever you want to call them blacks so that I don't have to be the poor sap to sit there and wear them down (assuming that is the only difference). On that same hand, I definitely think it takes way more than 10,000 presses to break in a switch. I used new reds at work everyday for 7 months and they feel like sandpaper compared to even the worst vintage blacks. I guarantee some of those keys were pressed way more than 10K times.

I am inclined to agree with the others that vintage blacks are indeed different than modern blacks more than just being broken in. IMO, they most likely have manufacturing differences that make them smoother than modern blacks. Cherry themselves have said they switch out molds over the years due to manufacturing fatigue and each mold is very slightly different than the one before it. That's why you have different sizes and designs of Cherry logos on the switch tops among other differences. I don't think there's any difference in the composition materials of the switches or stem as seems to be a popular claim, I just think the older stem & lower housing molds were smoother than the ones currently in use for whatever reason.

That only tells me you're not doing very much work @ work.. 

hardly indicative of how the smoothness of switches proceeds.

[strict]

Regardless of whatever makes them smooth, to me it's worth it to buy "vintage" or "worn-in" or whatever you want to call them blacks so that I don't have to be the poor sap to sit there and wear them down (assuming that is the only difference). On that same hand, I definitely think it takes way more than 10,000 presses to break in a switch. I used new reds at work everyday for 7 months and they feel like sandpaper compared to even the worst vintage blacks. I guarantee some of those keys were pressed way more than 10K times.

I am inclined to agree with the others that vintage blacks are indeed different than modern blacks more than just being broken in. IMO, they most likely have manufacturing differences that make them smoother than modern blacks. Cherry themselves have said they switch out molds over the years due to manufacturing fatigue and each mold is very slightly different than the one before it. That's why you have different sizes and designs of Cherry logos on the switch tops among other differences. I don't think there's any difference in the composition materials of the switches or stem as seems to be a popular claim, I just think the older stem & lower housing molds were smoother than the ones currently in use for whatever reason.

That only tells me you're not doing very much work @ work..

hardly indicative of how the smoothness of switches proceeds.

One part of a three man team that manages dozens of web farms responsible for roughly 200+ billion (with a B) web requests and 770 TB of data a day ... trust me when I say I do plenty  )

My point was that I will gladly buy the used switches if they are smoother. How long must one use a switch before it achieves vintage black levels of smooth? I haven't seen a solid, scientific, readily-reproducible answer for that anywhere and I haven't figured it out myself. I used reds 5 days a week for 7 months and they feel like **** compared to vintage blacks. I've been using new clears for 4 months 5 days a week and they are light years away from being as smooth as vintage blacks. I don't care what makes them smooth, just that they are and that I didn't have to suffer through the process (whatever it may be).

[GeorgeK]

Wow, that became an argument rather quickly...  I happen to think that it's more than just use that makes them feel smooth - I have some VERY well used POS keyboards here with non-vintage blacks in and they definitely feel less smooth than the vintage blacks I have.  I presume that my vintage blacks are also fairly well used but I don't imagine even for a second they've been used less than these POS keyboards (they're filthy so I presume very well used).

The main advice I wanted was

lubed vintage blacks > vintage blacks > lubed blacks > modern blacks

So I will definitely be lubing - I'll report back!

Cheers all

GK

[davkol]

Actually, if they're already smooth, I wouldn't lube them, unless opening the switches anyway.

[GeorgeK]

I will be opening them yeah (to swap to PCB mount and to sticker) so I may as well

[jacobolus]

I will be opening them yeah (to swap to PCB mount and to sticker) so I may as well

By “swap to PCB mount” do you mean replacing the bottom housing of the switch? If so, I think that might be part of the source of the smoothness. I wouldn’t plan to swap components between “vintage” and “modern” switches until you’ve tested the effects.

[GeorgeK]

That's what I mean yeah.  I haven't got a lot of choice if I want to use them with that board unfortunately (well technically it does have a plate but I'd feel a lot safer knowing they were PCB mount)

I'll do some investigating I think

[strict]

I would expect that changing the bottom part of the housing will noticeably effect how smooth your switches are

[GeorgeK]

Right - I've had a bit of an experiment - I put 5 switches in my QWERkeys switch tester each with a GMK Esc cap on in the following configuration

1) Non-vintage black
2) Vintage black, original bottom housing
3) Vintage black, different bottom housing
4) Lubed vintage black, original bottom housing
5) Lubed vintage black, different bottom housing

And I have come to the following conclusions (obviously very subjective).

1) Vintage blacks are definitely smoother than regular blacks (I think we all expected that)

2) Without lube vintage blacks in their original bottom housing are ever so slightly smoother than in the different housings

3) With lube vintage blacks definitely feel better than either original blacks or non-lubed vintage blacks

4) With lube there is no difference between vintage blacks in their original bottom housing and in a different bottom housing

Now to sticker and lube 88 vintage blacks (86 for the board and a couple spare just in case)

GK

[Oobly]

Right - I've had a bit of an experiment - I put 5 switches in my QWERkeys switch tester each with a GMK Esc cap on in the following configuration

1) Non-vintage black
2) Vintage black, original bottom housing
3) Vintage black, different bottom housing
4) Lubed vintage black, original bottom housing
5) Lubed vintage black, different bottom housing

And I have come to the following conclusions (obviously very subjective).

1) Vintage blacks are definitely smoother than regular blacks (I think we all expected that)

2) Without lube vintage blacks in their original bottom housing are ever so slightly smoother than in the different housings

3) With lube vintage blacks definitely feel better than either original blacks or non-lubed vintage blacks

4) With lube there is no difference between vintage blacks in their original bottom housing and in a different bottom housing

Now to sticker and lube 88 vintage blacks (86 for the board and a couple spare just in case)

GK

Very interesting, so in your experience, the sliders make a bigger difference to the smoothness than the bottom casings. That's the opposite of wht TP said, but I'm not all that surprised. I have noticed with some worn-in vs. new Browns that the slider mold lines are more worn away at the points where they meet and form a bit of a bump. So it's most likely the accuracy of the slider molds that determines how smooth the switch will be. Perhaps the current crop of switches are being made with old molds that have lost a bit of their precision or new molds that weren't machined accurately enough.

I wonder how smooth those aftermarket pink sliders are?

Have you tried the new sliders in the old bottom casings?

[Oobly]

This thread got me thinking about the grindy / gritty feeling of newer MX switches and where the fault lies...

So I took apart a Brown switch and played around with it.

I removed the copper contact spring and tested the slider in the case without the legs of the slider touching anything. I could feel and hear some scraping.

So I took it apart again and shaved the mold lines on the side of the slider down. This helped a bit. A bit smoother in there, but still not "smooth". So I smoothed out a bunch of area of the slider side pieces and it started feeling and sounding quite good.

Put the contact spring back in and.... scrapy grindy horribleness... The slider legs are also not smooth... So I scraped / polished them a bit and tried again. Still grindy.

So I check the bottom casing. The tracks where the slider moves are actually nice and smooth on one side (the side closest to the contacts), but the other side is rough. So both the slider AND the bottom casing on newer MX switches are not smooth and will contribute to that grindy feeling until they BOTH wear in and one of them becomes smooth enough to glide nicely over the other.

I just couldn't get the switch to feel really smooth since I couldn't smooth out the bottom casing rails properly and the contact spring presses the slider against that side. It could also be that the newer sliders can tilt a bit more easily in the rails and the bottom or top edge scrapes.

Anyway... After all that, my advice it to fit some nice thick and heavy keycaps and then proceed to wear in your switches thoroughly. The only way to get new switches smooth is to use them a lot.

[gameaholic]

Can't remember where I read it (I think it was a ripster post) but I thought that the smoothness of vintage blacks resulted from a difference in the type of plastic used. Perhaps the the original formula was more toxic.  If the result comes from wearing them in then maybe someone can come up with a machine to provide a "switch breaking in" service.