30g RubberDome Keyboards, Do They Exist?

[TotalChaos]

Does anyone know of any 30g (or less!) Rubberdome keyboards?

That don't have a giant amount of overhang?
That don't have a built in wrist-rest?
That are labeled in English?
With a USA layout?
That has all its keys?

I know someone out  there must own a keyboard like this.  You are probably hoarding them all to drive the price up.  )

[JPG]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

[TotalChaos]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

They really make one?  Where do I get it from?

The only 30g Topre I ever saw was sold in Japan only with Japanese layout and Japanese legends and AFICT it wasn't even possible to buy it as they had gone out of business or something.  (That one was not made by Topre Inc. but it used Topre switches).

[Defect]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

They really make one?  Where do I get it from?

The only 30g Topre I ever saw was sold in Japan only with Japanese layout and Japanese legends and AFICT it wasn't even possible to buy it as they had gone out of business or something.  (That one was not made by Topre Inc. but it used Topre switches).

I think someone (or a few people) on here have basically purchased 5-6 variably weighted Realforces and took the few 30g domes off those to make an all-30g RF.

[jonathanyu]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

They really make one?  Where do I get it from?

The only 30g Topre I ever saw was sold in Japan only with Japanese layout and Japanese legends and AFICT it wasn't even possible to buy it as they had gone out of business or something.  (That one was not made by Topre Inc. but it used Topre switches).

Japan Amazon still have some 30g Topre in JIS layout

[dante]

I wish I took a screen dump; a few months back there was a 30g uniform 104 on Amazon.  They wanted something like $385 for it or something.

[Flyersfan1]

there's this ---http://amzn.com/B007BHW03U

but the prices are ridiculous.

[xman]

Does anyone know of any 30g (or less!) Rubberdome keyboards?

That don't have a giant amount of overhang?
That don't have a built in wrist-rest?
That are labeled in English?
With a USA layout?
That has all its keys?

I know someone out  there must own a keyboard like this.  You are probably hoarding them all to drive the price up.  )

______________________________________________________________

      It might exist, but I do not know of a 30g rubber dome.  However...
This is rubber dome, I think, & they claim 20g actuation. I do not have one. 
The "click for alternate view" is a better picture for seeing the layout.:
http://www.fentek-ind.com/split_magic.htm

      Why rubber dome?
Tim Tyler modified mx switches to be 20cN by cutting down mx springs.
(1g is about the same as 1cN, so 20cN is about the same as 20g)
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/surgery/

PCB-mounted mx switches without LEDs are easy to open to get to the springs.
Getting down to 20g is easy, I've done it. Getting down to 30g is even easier.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think hoarding is happening with this.
A lot of people have a lot of different preferences, & that's ok.
Low force actuation is not for everyone. Some like it, some don't.
Some like different actuation settings for different fingers.
      If you go below a certain actuation force setting, you will not be able
to rest your fingers on the keys without activating them.
That point will vary by person, & by finger.

[HPE1000]

There is a guy in the classifieds with an all 30g realforce 87u right now actually, just spotted it.


http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48959.0

[dorkvader]

I think someone (or a few people) on here have basically purchased 5-6 variably weighted Realforces and took the few 30g domes off those to make an all-30g RF.

I have a realforce 30g uniform ANSI. It's a 10'th anniversary. I'm typing on it now.

It says "104 pro-30" on the back. The model number is YG1300 according to the box.

It was purchased from a topre official dealer in southeast Asia. Sadly it was new old stock (didn't the 10'th av's come out in like 2012 or something?).

The only 30g Topre I ever saw was sold in Japan only with Japanese layout and Japanese legends and AFICT it wasn't even possible to buy it as they had gone out of business or something.  (That one was not made by Topre Inc. but it used Topre switches).

HaaTa bought a realforce when he was in japan. I've typed on it. It's 30-g uniform japanese layout and was definitely made by topre.

[nubbinator]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

[TotalChaos]

      It might exist, but I do not know of a 30g rubber dome.  However...
This is rubber dome, I think, & they claim 20g actuation. I do not have one. 
The "click for alternate view" is a better picture for seeing the layout.:
http://www.fentek-ind.com/split_magic.htm

Thanks for the link!  I almost jumped on this immediately but the amazon reviews are pretty dreadful.  They complain about it being hard to press the keys down and that you have to press right in the center of the key.  This makes me think they are using those really dreadful switches that should banished from desktop computers (I can't remember what the name of those sucky switches is but I didn't think anyone had used them since the 1980s).

The only info I have found about the switches in this keyboard is:

Key Switches: Conductive elastomer rubber designed for 60 million cycles

Which makes me think they are not rubberdome, not easy to type on and not easy to press.

I will keep trying to find more info about this keyboard.

I would really love to buy a 20g rubberdome if such a thing really existed!

      Why rubber dome?
Tim Tyler modified mx switches to be 20cN by cutting down mx springs.
(1g is about the same as 1cN, so 20cN is about the same as 20g)
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/surgery/

PCB-mounted mx switches without LEDs are easy to open to get to the springs.
Getting down to 20g is easy, I've done it. Getting down to 30g is even easier.

I have a lot of respect for hardcore keyboard engineers who can mod their boards to do things they were not originally designed to do.  But sadly, I need more travel, not less.  Shortening the spring would shorten my travel, right?

I am not really trying to "reduce actuation force".  What I am really trying to do is "reduce the impact force of "bottoming out""

What I really want is a Cherry MX switch keyboard with 8mm of travel instead of 4mm but actuation at the top 2mm mark.  Then put a double-length Clear spring in.  That way the spring would actually have more time to stop my fingers from bottoming out when I type fast.  But since I don't have 1.4 million $$$ to build such a keyboard I am trying to go for plan B which is to find the softest keyboard I can find for under a few thousand $$

[Melvang]

Are you trying to reduce the impact stresses due to the impact of hitting the bottom of the key travel or are you just trying to get a switch with the lowest force required at the bottom of the key travel?

If you are trying to reduce the harshness of the impact at the bottom of the key travel then you are actually going about this backwards.  My recommendation would be to get a cherry board with whatever style you prefer (linear, tactile, or clicky) and put springs from clears in them.  The reason is because the springs in clears have a higher spring rate than Cherry's light and medium weight (thinking of blacks as medium).  They hit actuation a touch lighter than blacks and bottom at a touch higher than blacks.  I have found with personal typing to be the best thing for learning to not bottom out.  Though I almost always bottom out unless I am focusing on it.

[xman]

TC> Shortening the spring would shorten my travel, right?

The result of my experience: yes, feels like shorter travel to me.



TC> What I am really trying to do is "reduce the impact force of "bottoming out""

I also _must_ have a soft stop at the end of key travel, it's mandatory.
An O-ring (or 2) under the keycap is the usual method for mx switches.
There are a various degrees of softness available for O-rings.
I think there are sample packs available.
I think there are also soft landing pads available.
(If I ever get around to it, I will try them all.)
Right now I'm using small rubber bands.

(Note about small rubber bands, pads, or O-rings... they all reduce travel.)

Your long spring method idea seems like it would work the best...
but the switch needs to be long enough to hold the spring(s).
So the KB will be need to increased in size to hold a larger switch,
but it seems like it would work well.
         Even though you long spring method seems like the best,
I would try O-rings or pads or small rubber bands first,
simply because it's quicker & easier to try,
& it might be soft enough for you.

[tp4tissue]

You know those $5 keyboards...

they're ~ 25-30g..

[dorkvader]

TC> Shortening the spring would shorten my travel, right?

The result of my experience: yes, feels like shorter travel to me.

Clipping the spring shouldn't decrease travel at all . The spring is in compression a little from the switch housing being closed. Clipping it should just move the line on the force diagram down.

if you notice, the forrce curve starts out at 40g, even at the return it's still 20g at the end.
I would guess you can cut off up to 1mm of spring with no reduction in travel. If you plan to do this, I recommend some experimentation first of course.

[Melvang]

Cutting the spring will not reduce keystroke travel.  Unless you cut to much off the spring and then it might not work at all.

[xman]

TC> Shortening the spring would shorten my travel, right?

The result of my experience: yes, feels like shorter travel to me.

Clipping the spring shouldn't decrease travel at all . The spring is in compression a little from the switch housing being closed. Clipping it should just move the line on the force diagram down.

Show Image

if you notice, the forrce curve starts out at 40g, even at the return it's still 20g at the end.
I would guess you can cut off up to 1mm of spring with no reduction in travel. If you plan to do this, I recommend some experimentation first of course.

________________________________________________________________

You are correct & everything you say is true... based on the coiledspring being
under significant compression when the cover is pressing down on it.
          Sometimes I cut off more than 1mm to get to a desired actuation force.
I have found that a coiledspring can be sized/cut so that it is not under significant
compression by the cover, & yet still be long enough to push up on the sliderstem
(so that the leafspring contacts are open when the keycap is not being pressed).
         In that situation the keycap might "sag"; sit slightly but noticeably lower
than a keycap of a switch where the coiledspring is under significant compression
(from the cover pressing down). That slightly lower position can sometimes be
approximately 1mm lower. When that happens, the actuation point occurs at
~1mm instead of ~2mm of travel. There are variations, but this has sometimes
been my observation.

         Sometimes I accidentally cut the coiledspring so that it is too short to push
up on the sliderstem, so the leafspring contacts are no longer held open when
the keycap is not being pressed... I cut off too much.  Stretching the spring has
not worked well for me at that point.  I usually start over with another spring.
          Your recommendation for some experimentation is a good one. 
I find it helps to have extra springs on hand, just in case.

          Tim Tyler went down this road of 20cN (~20g) MX switch actuation first.
I'm just following in his footsteps.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

There are a couple that are just a little bit higher than 30g. I know they are slightly above what you're looking for, but if you can't find 30 or lower they might be a decent compromise.

Kinesis says their FreeStyle is 35g activation force. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/

Goldoutch says 36-42 http://shop.goldtouch.com/collections/ergonomic-keyboards/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-comfort-keyboard-pc-only

[TotalChaos]

Are you trying to reduce the impact stresses due to the impact of hitting the bottom of the key travel

Yes.  Absolutely!  *ouch*


 

If you are trying to reduce the harshness of the impact at the bottom of the key travel

Yep.

then you are actually going about this backwards.

I am actually going cRaZy and am proceeding in many directions at once.  I am running out of time.

  My recommendation would be to get a cherry board with whatever style you prefer (linear, tactile, or clicky) and put springs from clears in them.

I would love to try clear springs!  I love the angle of their force graph!

  The reason is because the springs in clears have a higher spring rate than Cherry's light and medium weight (thinking of blacks as medium).  They hit actuation a touch lighter than blacks and bottom at a touch higher than blacks.  I have found with personal typing to be the best thing for learning to not bottom out.  Though I almost always bottom out unless I am focusing on it.

What PCB mounted cherry-switch keyboard do you recommend?

[TotalChaos]

TC> What I am really trying to do is "reduce the impact force of "bottoming out""

I also _must_ have a soft stop at the end of key travel, it's mandatory.

Yes!  You understand me!
I hereby adopt you as my long lost keyboard brother. 

An O-ring (or 2) under the keycap is the usual method for mx switches.
There are a various degrees of softness available for O-rings.
I think there are sample packs available.
I think there are also soft landing pads available.
(If I ever get around to it, I will try them all.)

I have tried them all for you.  I conducted extensive experiments.
I promise you the O-rings are much much too hard.  In fact they are made out of the wrong material.  You want the foam padding.

Right now I'm using small rubber bands.

I have not tried that.  Do you have a picture?

I imagine soft rubber bands would be squishier than O-rings.  I would like to compare them to foam padding.

(Note about small rubber bands, pads, or O-rings... they all reduce travel.)

Yep.  But if the switch was taller then there would be more travel available.

[terrpn]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

right...........i thought i saw they were close to 30g

[TotalChaos]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

Thank you for your suggestion.  It is so cheap that I quickly ordered it.  By next week I will know how stiff/soft they are.

p.s. I officially hate the Dell website.  After hours of shopping and painfully picking out a mouse and keyboard, as I was checking out... I got to the part where you enter your credit card info and their system erased my cart and logged me out!  GRRR.

[terrpn]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

right...........i thought i saw they were close to 30g

scribal error..............i meant closer to 55g

i have a quiet key, had a 87u 55g and sold it

of course staying on topic we are talking about 30g

[TotalChaos]

You know those $5 keyboards...

they're ~ 25-30g..

I own a lot of cheapo rubberdome keyboards that are all in the 55g+ range.  However, one of them is an Acer keyboard and it is only 45g and it is soooooooooooo much less painful than my Topre TypeHeaven! 

That is what got me started on this 30g rubberdome kick.  If my 45g rubberdome isn't half bad then a 30g might be fairly good.  I would love to buy a 15g rubberdome but I didn't want to have an empty thread so I put 30g in the title.

I would really like to know where all these 25g rubberdomes are hiding.

Are you saying that if I bought 20 different $5.00 keyboards (that is only $100.00) that I could realistically expect 20% of those keyboards to be 25g?  And that's all I have to do?  Just take the "shotgun" approach to keyboard shopping?

Another thing I was thinking about doing was buying 100 of those $1.00 rubberdome keyboards from the Dollar Store and then start haxxing them up and try to turn them into 30g or 15g keyboards. 

[dorkvader]

You know those $5 keyboards...

they're ~ 25-30g..

I own a lot of cheapo rubberdome keyboards that are all in the 55g+ range.  However, one of them is an Acer keyboard and it is only 45g and it is soooooooooooo much less painful than my Topre TypeHeaven! 

That is what got me started on this 30g rubberdome kick.  If my 45g rubberdome isn't half bad then a 30g might be fairly good.  I would love to buy a 15g rubberdome but I didn't want to have an empty thread so I put 30g in the title.

I would really like to know where all these 25g rubberdomes are hiding.

Are you saying that if I bought 20 different $5.00 keyboards (that is only $100.00) that I could realistically expect 20% of those keyboards to be 25g?  And that's all I have to do?  Just take the "shotgun" approach to keyboard shopping?

Another thing I was thinking about doing was buying 100 of those $1.00 rubberdome keyboards from the Dollar Store and then start haxxing them up and try to turn them into 30g or 15g keyboards. 

I do not think you'll be able to find a used 25-30 gram keyboard that way.

The kinesis or goldtouch is likely your best bet. I didn't do any measurements but a modern lenovo keyboard (that was attached to our UPS worldship machine) was also quite light. It may be worth looking into.

[intelli78]

I have a Kinesis Freestyle II with approx 30g keys. It feels quite nice.

[Oobly]

...  What I am really trying to do is "reduce the impact force of "bottoming out""
...

Then you need to try the trampoline mod: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.0

You can adjust the hardness / softness and travel by using different shapes and materials. If you want a really soft landing I would recommend a longish (say 2.5mm) thin (1mm) piece of soft silicon rubber (you can use thin oring material for this), so there is quite a lot of "squish" area available around it to compress into and it'll start to "press back" early (with a 2.5mm piece it will start to touch the slider right after actuation and then progressively increase the resistance for about 1.5mm until it fills the gap under the slider "pole").

You need to open the switch to do the mod, but it's much more customisable than orings and since it's inside the switch you can use it with any keycaps. I find thick heavy keycaps work well with the mod to reduce bottoming out shock on the fingers. Feels way better than any rubber dome board. I use Browns and ErgoClears with the mod and my favourites are 62g ErgoClears.

These silicon balls work quite well, but they don't allow much squish area and thus feel quite similar to orings: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

[krser]

I have some alternatives, if you want softer impact. You could try peerless switches. I have one, and its alright. Better than most keyboards, but even a decent rubber dome beats it anyday. Any older, white keyboards (for lack of words) from the 1900s tend to have better quality, especially ones like dell quietkey. Alternately, try using cherry blacks or reds and using orings on them. Probably the safest bet is the last one I mentioned. The other ones are really hit or miss.

[davkol]

I have two left-over Goldtouch Adjustable keyboards that actuate at less than 40 cN, closer to 35 cN, and with very soft landing. The "problem" is that most batches aren't so light/soft, especially in the newer generation.

Another option is Cherry MY without springs and optionally with thick/heavy keycaps and possibly dampeners. I recommend EliteKeyboards' soft-landing pads over o-rings though, because they're much softer (and mushy >_<). Springless MY is like 25 cN, which makes it actually more difficult to prevent switches from accidental actuating in the resting position.

[TotalChaos]

...  What I am really trying to do is "reduce the impact force of "bottoming out""
...

Then you need to try the trampoline mod: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.0

You can adjust the hardness / softness and travel by using different shapes and materials. If you want a really soft landing I would recommend a longish (say 2.5mm) thin (1mm) piece of soft silicon rubber (you can use thin oring material for this), so there is quite a lot of "squish" area available around it to compress into and it'll start to "press back" early (with a 2.5mm piece it will start to touch the slider right after actuation and then progressively increase the resistance for about 1.5mm until it fills the gap under the slider "pole").

Absolutely!

I have been wanting to try that mod!

but...

You need to open the switch to do the mod,

See, that is the big problem 

All my keyboards have been rigged by their manufacturers to be ridiculously hard to mod.  Instead of mounting the switches on the PCB, or on a normal easymod piece of steel plate, they intentionally put them on these plates have been very carefully designed to make it impossible to open the switch without desoldering it.   

My hands are wrecked so I will never be able to solder or desolder.

So I would have to either:
A: Find a normal EasyMod(tm) keyboard.  This will be hard to find.
or
B: Pay 1 person to do all the mods all at the same time on the same day while the switch is desoldered.  (Desolder switch. Do trampoline mod. Put in the Clear spring. Lube the spring. Solder switch. Put in crashpads. Test.) 

I would rather do both A and B.  That way, next month when someone discovers a new, better material to go inside the switch I could just take apart 1 key all by myself and try it out.

  I find thick heavy keycaps work well with the mod to reduce bottoming out shock on the fingers.

That is yet another complicated piece of the puzzle.  I could buy some of those heavy metal keycaps.  Someone had made some keycaps out of Zinc and possibly other materials.  I almost bought them even though they were a ton of money but I didn't end up getting them because the space bar would not match the rest of the keys.  (No way a Cherry Red Spring would hold up big heavy Zinc spacebar and the shift keys would sag down lower than the other keys too.)

I wanted to buy a whole keyboard's worth of Rubber Keycaps from Signature Plastics but I can't find them on their website anymore so I guess they don't make them anymore.  I never even got to try them out.     I have no idea if they were the right height or not.  How soft they were or any other details.

 

Feels way better than any rubber dome board.

All springloaded keyboards should feel way better than any rubber dome board.

These silicon balls work quite well, but they don't allow much squish area and thus feel quite similar to orings: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

They are a kewl idea but they are too hard and small for me.

Someday someone will build a tiny little tube with a tiny little spring inside it that fits inside a Cherry Switch to push up the force curve so that the switch will become soft and cushy.  Then I will be in heaven.

[TotalChaos]

Another option is Cherry MY without springs

Wow!  I will have to reread about those.  I read about them years ago and the comments from random ppl said they were scratchy, fiddly, grindy and other things that scared me away.  It doesn't seem all that easy to find Cherry MY keyboards with all they keys attached.

I recommend EliteKeyboards' soft-landing pads over o-rings though, because they're much softer (and mushy >_<).

Yes I use them on all my Cherry Red keyboards.  I am not a complete newb  )

Springless MY is like 25 cN, which makes it actually more difficult to prevent switches from accidental actuating in the resting position.

When I rest my hands over the keyboard my fingers touch ever so lightly.  Maybe 1cN.  So light switches are absolutely not a problem for me.

[microsoft windows]

I wonder how a 30g keyboard would feel in use?

[rowdy]

I wonder how a 30g keyboard would feel in use?

Very light, I would imagine.

Sneeze too hard and half the keys would actuate!

[Melvang]

I realize they are not rubber dome but try this one on for size.  With the switches being preloaded with an MX relegendable cap actuation force is only 8cN with 1.2mm to actuation.
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitches/

[TotalChaos]

You need to find a 30g Topre, closest you will get.

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

Thank you for your suggestion.  It is so cheap that I quickly ordered it.  By next week I will know how stiff/soft they are.

Fedex just handed me a box.

I am now the proud owner of a brand new Dell QuietKey rubberdome keyboard!

These keys are nowhere near 30g!

It takes a good solid 60g of force to depress a regular key 100% of the time.  60g of force will depress a stabilized key 50% of the time.  And the keys feel a bit wobbly like so many cheap rubberdomes do.  In other words: This rubberdome keyboard is just like every other rubberdome I ever had.

Ergopedia says:

Key Activation Force: The 'factory' actuation force varies widely, and can be as low as 25 grams or as high as 150 grams.  Most membrane keyswitches are rated between 60 and 80 grams. 

Most of my rubberdomes are between 60 and 80g too.


I am really starting to wonder how my Acer keyboard came to be so much better than any other rubberdome I ever owned.  It came free with my Acer computer.  It has lower profile keycaps.  They are not all wobbly like other rubberdomes.  They only require 45g of force to actuate a key.  Could it be a scissor switch keyboard?

[davkol]

Most scissor switches are actually on the stiffer side. It doesn't tell much though; for example, Logitech UltraX has the same peak force as complicated white Alps, but they feel completely different!

[xman]

I recommend EliteKeyboards' soft-landing pads over o-rings though, because they're much softer (and mushy >_<).

Yes I use them on all my Cherry Red keyboards.  I am not a complete newb  )

___________________________________


You're using the black softest version, right?

Have you ever tried using _2_ of EliteKeyboards'
soft-landing pads under a single keycap? 
Is there space enough for 2?
Is there space enough for 3?

Maybe there's an even softer version available somewhere, made of lower-density foam rubber.
(If there isn't, maybe there should be.)

[digi]

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

^^ This, $15 shipped bruh. edit* looks like you picked one up and it's not near 30g.

Sounds like the closest thing that might interest you would be the RF 87U 30-45g variable..

[dorkvader]

Nah, just get a Dell Quietkey.

^^ This, $15 shipped bruh. edit* looks like you picked one up and it's not near 30g.

Sounds like the closest thing that might interest you would be the RF 87U 30-45g variable..

Or the 30g uniform realforce keyboards that have been mentioned already....